Micro 134 (F11) (Game Over!)

[Syryana]

VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum

[Syryana]

VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum

Pretty sure you're not cool enough to get away with that.

Cool or otherwise, you still need to die. The very fact you're not dead already speaks volumes.

[Syryana]

I get the feeling he skipped over a lot. And if he did read everything, he's clearly not putting any effort into finding scum, just going for an easy target with no reasoning whatsoever. Plus it doesn't help your lynch was given approval by Dazed and Confused.

I did, in fact, read the entire thread. I find it amusing that you're attempting to discredit me to prevent a lynch on your scumpartner.

VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum

Gonna need way more than this.

Very well. Why CES? In the 15 or so pages of this thread, I noticed the general consensus concerning him went something like this:

• CES is a dangerous player.
  
• He has a tendency to laser-eye people. In other words, very accurate if not dead-on D1 reads.
  
• Nobody can read CES, not even the veterans.
  
• CES is
  really
  fucking dangerous.

So, given the above points, it stands to reason that if CES is town, then he is a high-priority target for the scum. Nobody can read him, he can read everybody, and everybody knows that he can read everybody. Why, then, is he still alive? Because he is scum, of course. No other reason for his continued existence makes sense.

Moving onward from general analysis, let's delve into what CES actually did on D1. Lots of idle banter, prodding various folks (e.g. Nacho, RachMarie, etc.), voting Nacho, hammering Whiskers, more idle banter. So, in brief, a whole lot of nothing, minus quickhammering the cop. Granted the cop lynch was pretty well justified, considering how sketchy both Whiskers

and

Josh were being. However, even in the unlikely event that CES is town, his track record up to this point in the game is justification for a policy lynch, which is why I voted him along with D+C.

Now, some of you might be wondering why I made that comment up at the top about FT being scum. FT wasn't my top choice as CES's partner until he made that post; I felt Nacho was a better choice, given the contrived-sounding diatribe that went on between them in Day 1 and Nacho's curious analysis of the town in #154. Nacho still comes in as a close second, but FT has my attention. I originally got a town-read on him due to the "righteous indignation" that he showed when RachMarie impugned his play judgment. However, after the RM/FT incident resolved, he proceeds to "analyse" the town by waffling on everyone except for Sixty, and Sixty by reason of the massive dump truck of obvtown that Tierce graced us with. Afterwards, he does a poor job of defending himself from Sixty by trying to deflect onto RM and retract his statements about liking Sixty for town. This quote in particular bothered me:

Sotty is town as fvck. Her thought process mirrors a lot of my own and her response to Sixty's attack by trying to understand where Sixty was coming from was very pro-town. Especially trying to understand the reasoning behind Sixty's suspicion of me, not just herself, showed a lot of thought and effort to understand Sixty's motivations, very genuine scumhunting.

I translated the above as "Cool, now I have a townie to sheep!" First, he likes Sixty as town. Then, when Sixty calls him on his BS he retracts his town-read and attaches himself to Sotty. After Sixty gets distracted by a large ball (in the form of D+C, iirc), he shuts up and says nothing of consequence with the sole exception of voting Whiskers, until I come along and vote his scumpartner. Oh, and his vote of Whiskers had no justification provided, and he and CES put Whiskers from L-2 to dead in less than a half hour.

[Syryana]

Syryana, welcome to the game. If you were scum, would you have killed CES last night? What if your buddy had pointed out the reasons that made him a bad nightkill--who would your next choice have been? (Also, not to turn this into MD, but why does being hard to read make you

more

likely to be nightkilled?)

I've no idea. Depends on who my scumpartner is, how that person interacted with others, how they interacted with me, etc. As for being hard to read making you more likely to be NK'd, it doesn't. However, in the case of CES, being hard-to-read

and

laser-eyed in his analysis of others makes him a good NK choice. Because even if he gets lynched the next day, he's still had the entire day to watch, analyze, and presumably post his thoughts in twilight or even at L-1. It is therefore in the favor of scum to NK him, preventing him from reading anyone. There are two possibilities for why he's still alive: he's so far off on who the scumteam is that he's not a threat and he's liable to get lynched for that cophammer, OR he's scum himself. I'm still leaning towards scum. Here's why.

Sotty's town read of Jason muddies the waters quite a bit w.r.t what the scum team is (Syryana's last post isn't bad either), but it only makes this vote easier:

Vote: Nacho

Sotty-Jason makes a surprising amount of sense. You're going to have to elaborate on that town read, Sotty.

So he suspects a Sotty-Jason scumteam but votes Nacho? I don't see this making any kind of sense. He tries to say later that he wants to explore the Sotty-Jason idea but doesn't necessarily want to vote for them. I think he's trying to be inconspicuous. He quickhammers yesterday, thinking that nobody will suspect a quickhammer from CESscum; he's too wily for such an obvious tactic. It backfires; Whiskers was the cop. Today, therefore, he attempts to appease me by saying my post attacking him "isn't bad" and slinks off to the person he targeted all day yesterday: Nacho. He makes some token posts about Sotty-Jason, then sits back and waits for everyone to get distracted by something else. Like Jason, for example.

The main point boils down to the asking, why isn’t CES dead? Which completely ignores the fact that CES hammered Whiskers.

I addressed this. CES hammered Whiskers because he could, and because he didn't want any last minute claims to get in the way of his day 1 lynch. Besides, nobody expects him to hammer as scum. It's way too obvious for someone like CES. Hell, he quickhammered the cop, and got 2 and a half votes of heat. If I had quickhammered the cop in any of the games I'd played in the past, I'd have been dead within 5 minutes of the opening bell for Day 2. That CES lives speaks to just how few folks think CESscum would hammer like that, which he is taking outrageous advantage of at the moment.

The question, why isn’t CES dead, is as stupid a fucking question as it gets, and anyone pushing that as a reason to lynch him is pushing a non-starter of an argument. Flip the tables, assume CES is town for a second, and now ask the more reasonable question: if CES is town, would scum kill him after his quick hammer? The answer here seems pretty obvious. Which tells me Syryana has not, for even a second, considered the possibility that CES is town. And I dunno about you but that seems like the kind of thing scum do, not town. At least I know I always try to look at things from both angles.

I did consider the possibility that CES is town for at

least

five seconds. I merely find it increasingly unlikely. Besides, I already said earlier in this post why leaving CES alive to be lynched is more trouble than it's worth, given he has an entire second day to move his gaze from Nacho. Not to mention the fact that there's no guarantee he'd be lynched anyways.

The points about me are also terrible. I mean, even if CES is scum, I still don't see how we're connected or how it makes any sense to say we're partners. And most of Syryana's points about me are just really dumb. Like calling me scummy because I questioned my initial impression of Sixty. Or saying I called you town to sheep you when in context you were technically following my lead on Rach. 383 is just not well thought out at all. It comes across as a superficial attack on both CES and myself.

Oh look, more defense of CES. You wonder why I keep calling you and he partners? At least my post

contained

logic, good or otherwise. Yours just seems to be an attack on my character.

In short, I see no reason to move my vote at this time. The magic man has retreated and is laying low. Simmer down, paranoia.

In other news:

I have to admit, I like FT's 420

What did you like?

[Syryana]

FT, what did/do you think of my hammer?

It didn't come as any surprise. I probably would have done the same if you had voted for Whiskers before me. Why did you say Syryana's 383 wasn't bad?

He already answered that. See #483.

[Syryana]

So barring the fact that you believe I'm an idiot, what are your thoughts on the goings on round here, FT?

[Syryana]

Clear scum motivation? Do elaborate.

[Syryana]

I disagree that 383 didn't look informed. Syryana made the basis of her case on CES some WIFOM-filled analysis about how CES is still alive, and that is not something I see coming from a town POV because it means Syryana is assuming CES is scum as a starting point. Town don't assume anything because they are uninformed whereas scum tend to make assumptions about alignments when making their cases because they already know the alignment of everyone.

I really couldn't disagree more. Assumptions are the bread and butter of this game; you can't make any decisions without making assumptions about

something.

Look at Drunk and Disorderly up there. They've been waffling the whole game, since they keep WIFOMing themselves into paranoia about everyone thanks to a lack of assumptions about anyone. But this is really an MD discussion; I'll get to my point.

I never assumed CES to be scum. After sorting through those 14 pages of fluff'n'stuff when I replaced in, I made some reads based off what I saw and my intuition. Here's what I got:

Sotty7: Townread. There was generic townieness to her posts, but what really got me was the frustration she showed when people started dismissing or shitting on her reads. I think it's super hard to formulate something like that when scum; granted I don't know Sotty well enough to meta that out of her, but it's just really hard to manufacture something like that.

Drunk and Disorderly: Weak townread. This one was pretty much a gutread. I liked how they ask people questions and analyze the answers. I degraded this to weak because of a post they made in twilight along the lines of "If I die tonight, here are my thoughts", because in games I've played in the past this almost universally turned out to be a scumtell. Could be just a paranoia hangup, which is why they got degraded to weak townread instead of scumread. I'd like to hear more of their opinions though, rather than watching them ask everyone else questions.

JasonT1981: Null. He lurked, he voted Whiskers, that's pretty much it. Didn't have enough information to make a decision, so I ignored him.

Nacho: Slight gut scumread. He seemed pretty logical and I agreed with some of his points (namely about jason), but he just had some odd statements. Like making himself a threat to CES as scum, his rigorous defense of RachMarie. Just didn't sit quite right with me.

FourTrouble: My opinion on you morphed from townread to scumread the further I got through the thread. Initial town gut call on the RachMarie ragefest, but I didn't like how vague you were when explaining your reasoning on your reads. I also didn't like how quiet you got after the Sixty fight. I ended up picking you over Nacho to be CES's scumpartner in my argument thanks to the timing of your L-1 and CES's hammer.

CES: Null. Shocking, I know, that I should have a null read on CES. My argument on him arose from mental WIFOM regarding his quickhammer and the fact that he's not dead yet. I won't rehash the argument, but after I figured CES had to either be horrendously misinformed and way off on the scum, or an evil genius playing gambits to fool the other veterans. I went with the evil genius.

So that's the thought process which spawned my argument for CES/FT scum. I'll probably post some more thoughts after we hear back from D+D and more importantly after I sleep.

I do think CES is town though and on the right track in terms of finding Syryana's partner. Dazed and Confused is still town. Sotty is still town too but I have my doubts creeping in.

Why do you think CES is town? And what's causing doubts about Sotty?

[Syryana]

Newbies convinced of my scummitude is sadly not that uncommon a phenomenon.

Well, you do have that sort of self-satisfied, arrogant air of "I'm gonna win this for all of us" about you. Easy to get a false scumread from that, or at least pick the scum end of the WIFOM you give everyone to work with

See her title.

You don't have to worry about Dazzled and Blinded as their townieness is beyond questioning. Empire doesn't even have a scum game.

So, Stumped and Stupefied are town for much the same reason Sixty was town, because there isn't an argument to be made to the contrary? As a general rule I suspect people that bury me in avalanches of obvtown. Thank God Tierce is dead; I'd have more people to suspect.

[Syryana]

Didn't you say somewhere that they were "obv town"? I'm also kinda weirded out by you copying CES and his mocking of D+C's name. That's a gut thing though so.. I just don't know what to do with it. It's like you're doing it to get on his good side while attacking him. I don't know. It's bugging me.

Of course they were obvtown, which made me suspect them. Where I come from, obvtown means scum trying to fit in as town. I actually had intended on saying originally that Sixty and CES were my top suspects (Sixty for all the obvtown, CES because of, well, I'm not going over that again). Then Sixty went and got themselves killed, spoiling that perfectly good paranoia theory.

Also, mocking Dazzled and Ditsy's name is amusing.

VOTE: jasonT1981

[Syryana]

Wall inc.

[Syryana]

I have many things to respond to, so time to get cracking. Quotes!

Syryana, what made you go for jason in particular? He was ranked a lot lower than some other people on your suspect list. (And yes, I still need to answer your question, particularly since I've been pretty vague about you so far, but I'm lazy and easy posts come first.)

I will deal with my reasoning on Jason shortly. Some folks have been asking things that naturally lead into this, and other folks' reactions to it are also relevant.

What I don't like about this is, 1) he didn't have a scumread on me until after I started calling him scum, and 2) he voted for CES when he should have been voting for Nacho (his only real scumread). His actions/behavior does not line up with his thought process. He also voted for Jason instead of Nacho, again when he had Jason down as null but Nacho down as scum. It comes down to Syryana's thought process having very little depth to it (at its clear worst when he's not sheeping someone else's thoughts), and the fact Syryana's not even acting fully on his thoughts.

I did in fact have a scumread on you before you started calling me scum; I just didn't have you as my top choice. You see, I found your impugning of my vote of CES highly suspect; I felt most of the other players would have asked for reasoning rather than outright attacking me, as you did. That pushed you right up the scale from vaguely scummy to scumpartner. As for my thought process, the process I provided in #450 was to provide you my thoughts at the time of my original vote of CES, i.e. my thoughts on Day 1. I had originally intended to vote Nacho or Jason, but my brain caught fire with these wondrously paranoid imaginings when Day 2 arrived and CES was alive. I couldn't wrap my head around it; why on earth would scum leave someone that dangerous alive, even if he is looking really scummy with the quickhammer? So, I voted him, you walked out of the wings and attacked me for doing so, and you ended up his perfect scumpartner. As for my vote on Jason, I will explain that forthwith.

I have several reasons for voting Jason, rather than Nacho or FT. The first of these reasons is actually quite similar to D+C's alleged reason for policy-voting CES: I had zero on Jason and I wanted to apply a little pressure to him. Considering how vocal he got (comparatively) after my vote, mission accomplished. No, I don't believe my vote is the reason he got talky, but let's not get caught up in semantics. As for not voting FT, once I accepted that my case on CES was more than a little specious, some of my arguments on FT went out the window. Like the L-1 quickhammer setup scenario, for example. There is still a significant possibility that FT is scum (the Sixty kill makes sense for FTscum, his reactions to my voting CES are still suspect, etc.), but I didn't vote him because I felt like that would have little to no effect in getting information from him; folks would have expected me to vote him, taking all the heat out of my vote. I didn't vote Nacho for much the same reason; Distracted and Disconcerted were (and still are) already piling a load of heat on him, and I wanted my vote to pressure someone else.

Another reason for voting Jason was the reactions it would get out of others; e.g. Sotty, D+D. Unfortunately that part didn't work quite so well as I had hoped; the reactions were more in the nature of "What the hell noob" than any sort of meaningful dialogue. I'll chalk that one up to a learning experience.

After reading Jason's latest posts, I found little in them that made me want to change my vote: his analysis was poorly thought out and/or nonexistent, his reasoning behind why Sotty's change of heart about him is vague and unjustified, his responses to Nacho parroted me in places and were again vague. Jason has time and again evaded answering the most important question in this game: "Why?". I don't give a fat damn what Jason (or anyone else for that matter) thinks, I want to know why they think it. And Jason, moreso than anyone else in this game, has avoided answering that question.

So that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I voted (and am continuing to vote) Jason.

- I think FT and Syryana are both being severely underestimated. There are little things here and there that make me think they're a lot more competent than your average newbie (specifically, the level of detail involved in Syr's CES/FT case) and so I get the impression that I've been giving them too much of a free pass.

I would like to point out that this is not my first time playing Mafia. I am new to this site, but I am not new to the game. I am of course nowhere near the levels of veterans like Sixty, D+D, CES, but I know a tad more about how to play than the average newbie, yes. I originally began playing Mafia with other people from my guild in World of Warcraft, but they didn't have the interest in the game that I did, and after playing a few games with the same 9 people I wanted to find somewhere that took Mafia seriously. I ended up here. So by all means, tear me apart. Maybe I'll learn something.

[Syryana]

Why did you mention Nacho then when you decided to vote for me?

Because he's wildly inconsistent and can't keep his scumlogic straight?

[Syryana]

Enough pussyfooting around. There is a reason that I think Jason is town but I really don't want to come out with it until tomorrow if I can help it. I will feel like a dink if I read too much into what I saw, but live by the sword, die by the sword.

This makes me curious.

Syryana's vote on Jason also seems pretty contrived. Voted for reactions but now likes to keep his vote. Not really sure I buy that, but it's a MUCH better effort than Nacho at least.

That's probably because I left one of my reasons for voting Jason out. Suffice it to say that Nacho's been my primary target since after my CES idea fell apart.

Ironically, just as I say that I consider voting for Nacho and then stop myself realizing it would be a hammer lol... I don't think we're allowed to talk about other games we're in, right? but I will say what Sotty is saying about Jason rings true. I still don't find Syryana's recent posts genuine. Syryana/Nacho makes a lot of sense, to be honest.

This sounds amazingly neutral considering how gung-ho you are about everything else. As for Syryana/Nacho, let's disabuse you of that notion right now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nacho

BRING DOWN THE THUNDER, IT'S HAMMER TIME!

[Syryana]

VOTE: FT

[Syryana]

Because to me, he's obviously scum. Consider:

I know about Josh from looking through a few of his previous games.

Re: hammering, I dunno to be honest. I've never been put in a position to hammer someone before, but I do know that I've never hesitated to vote for people I'm confident are scum, don't see why hammering would be any different.

Followed shortly by:

Ironically, just as I say that I consider voting for Nacho and then stop myself realizing it would be a hammer lol... I don't think we're allowed to talk about other games we're in, right? but I will say what Sotty is saying about Jason rings true. I still don't find Syryana's recent posts genuine. Syryana/Nacho makes a lot of sense, to be honest.

For the first time this game, he displayed hesitance to attack. Considering how gung-ho he was on me yesterday, and how aggressive he was against Sixty the day before, his reluctance to hammer Nacho is wildly out of character.

I'm curious what CES thinks, though.

[Syryana]

POE has it down to either Four trouble, who I forgot was actually in the game yesterday and Syryana AKA Rach, who Nacho ushered me off on day one.

K. Explain.

[Syryana]

Syryana why did you hammer Nacho and what happened to your Jason push?

My Jason push was a decoy. I figured if I voted Nacho, people would look at the vote and go "wtf ehrmagerd the noob is voting for Nacho let's kill someone else". Therefore, I voted for Jason, working under the assumption people would look at it, get disgusted, call me terrible, and vote for one of the other scumreads. Sort of an anti-vote, if you will. I picked Jason because he and Nacho were on pretty much everyone's lists and after reading Jason's scum meta I was fairly sure he was town. He puts in more effort to look intelligent and logical when he's scum.

Why hammer Nacho? Didn't want some wishy-washy person changing their minds. Besides, the reaction I had when he flipped roleblocker was fucking priceless.

[Syryana]

Kinda smells like bullshit though.

Considering you're the one the decoy worked on, it's not surprising

[Syryana]

Well what was the point? To avoid the night kill?

What was the point of hammering? I wanted to see my strongest scumread die. That was the point.

Yeah, don't do stuff like that, Syryana.

Are you referring to the quickhammer, or what I did with regards to Jason?

[Syryana]

What you did w.r.t. to Jason.

Why not?

[Syryana]

After I gave up on my case against CES, my main scumread was Nacho. There wasn't really a logical case I could make against Nacho that didn't sound like I was copying either you or D+C. Trust me, I tried. Since I couldn't get him logically without you lot tearing me apart for it, I decided to move in a somewhat sneakier manner. The idea was born because it felt at the time like I was the main reason the lynch against CES fell apart because my reasoning against him caused the rest of you to look at other possibilities. So I figured, if it was me that caused the CES lynch to fall apart, and I want Nacho to die, the best course of action would be to throw my support on the Jason wagon, since if I went with Nacho it would likely prevent him from getting lynched. Completely illogical, and almost certainly doomed to backfire, yet somehow it worked.

[Syryana]

There wasn't really a logical case I could make against Nacho that didn't sound like I was copying either you or D+C. Trust me, I tried.

Why would you care about that? If you thought Nacho was scum for the same reasons as someone else, why not say that?

Because I was already fighting an uphill battle from the effects of RachMarie on Day 1. She was so scummy, I was genuinely surprised when my role PM popped up town. I figured that a case that looked like a copycat would be a one-way ticket to the noose.

[Syryana]

What's an Amished tell?

As for detailed reads, you asked, I shall deliver.

D+C - My towniest townread. They've been pretty obvtown the whole game, they've followed good lines of reasoning all game (well, minus a policy lynch on CES, that kinda backfired), and out of all their 100 posts I can't point to anything that would make me think they're scum.

CES - Town. Though originally I suspected him of being scum for the quickhammer and living through the night, I came to agree with D+C's townread on him, especially given that his partner would be Nacho. It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense for CES to bus his partner from the first day

and

quickhammer. He's done too many high-profile things when all he really needed to do was sit back and, as he put it, "amble along to the finish line."

Sotty7 - I've been up and down on you pretty much this entire time. Originally I had a townread on you thanks to that wonderful frustration you showed on Day 1, then CES went and pointed out you're good enough to manufacture that sort of thing. So much for that, back to null read. On day 2, you didn't do anything outright scummy, but there were a bunch of little question marks that made me wonder. For example, your read swap on Jason and deliberately being obtuse when I was explaining my thought processes (e.g. #463). Nothing overt enough to change my scumread from FT, but little things. You'd be my next choice if FT for some ungodly reason flips town.

Jason - Town. This guy's so scummy it hurts. Inconsistent logic, perma-lurking, scumtells out the wazoo both in content and in tone. I'm sure you're wondering at this point why I wrote town? Because after looking at those scumgames he linked, there's no way he's scum. His scumplay is much more consistent and he puts a heck of a lot more effort into his reads. Most of his scumposting is clear, even polished. This go-round has none of that and I just don't think he's capable of playing the dunce to that degree.

FT - The final scumpartner. He was fiendishly aggressive on just about everyone (the RachMarie misrep, the Sixty attack, the attack on my 383 implicating him, etc.)

except

Nacho. He even contradicted himself, saying that if a hammer situation arose on someone he was confident were scum that he would feel no problem hammering. Yet, when his buddy Nacho was on the line, he blinked. Now, I'm all for being cautious on a hammer, but it's wildly out of character for the otherwise aggressive FT. The Sixty kill also makes sense coming from him considering that attack they led on him on Day 1.

Another scumtell I've noticed is he's fixated on me. He hasn't said a word regarding anyone else in the game since I joined (I sit corrected, he had a single line saying his reads in #449, but the point still stands). His singlemindedness in pursuing me is quite odd, especially since I let my case against him slide away while I was sitting decoy on Jason. He spent all of Day 2 tunneling me and providing short answers to questions from CES and D+C. In short, he waffled on his partner and has been tunneling on me for the sake of consistency.

[Syryana]

What did you read before getting your role PM?

As in, what were my reads before getting my role PM, or how far into the thread did I get before reading my role PM? Not sure which one you're asking.

[Syryana]

It is interesting that I am scum for finding Jason town, who you also find town. I have detailed why I find him town (see my nacho vote for example) just not given all the reasons. (Anything you can do etc..)

I don't find you scum for finding Jason town. I think it raised a question mark when you flip-flopped on Jason with no explanation other than "I'd rather not give my reasons out today, thanks." I know why

I

find Jason town, but I don't know why

you

find Jason town.

And where the heck is D+C? I feel like they should have some fun opinions about the goings on around here.

[Syryana]

It is interesting that I am scum for finding Jason town, who you also find town. I have detailed why I find him town (see my nacho vote for example) just not given all the reasons. (Anything you can do etc..)

I don't find you scum for finding Jason town. I think it raised a question mark when you flip-flopped on Jason with no explanation other than "I'd rather not give my reasons out today, thanks." I know why

I

find Jason town, but I don't know why

you

find Jason town.

And where the heck is D+C? I feel like they should have some fun opinions about the goings on around here.

[Syryana]

Sonofabitch.

Zach, would you delete the double there? Sorry.

[Syryana]

I was asking the latter but you can also answer the former.

If I recall correctly, I was in the vicinity of page 8 or 9.

At the time, I had gut town reads on the hydras and Sotty, null on you and FT, and scumreads on Josh, Rach and Jason.

Josh was overly sure Nacho was town and had difficulty articulating his reads on everyone else. He also went afk and got replaced by Whiskers, which really didn't help my read on the slot. Whiskers was a character. He had inconsistent logic, tons of gaps. Then he went into ragefests when people called him on it.

Nacho wasn't a huge scumread on the first day, but there were some weird things he did that were pretty off to me. Like the whole "making myself a threat to CES as scum" seemed pretty contrived, as did his rather arbitrary defense of Rach. He was also just vague in general.

RachMarie. Her posts were super fluffy. All she really did was banter with a few people, give some unsubstantiated votes and reads, and post a whole ton of links that she did nothing with. Combine her almost total lack of substance and analysis with the fact that Nacho was defending her for no apparent reason from an irate FourTrouble, she ended up on the scummy end of my scum-o-meter.

[Syryana]

Check again?

I see your reason in #420, Sotty. I had to read it a couple of times to realize it was Jason you were calling lazy and not Nacho. You also mentioned you had another reason for thinking Jason town in that same post; that reason was the one I was looking for.

[Syryana]

I didn't aggressively attack everyone, in fact I wouldn't even consider my attacks that aggressive on anyone except you. You also seem to forget I defended CES when he was on the verge of getting lynched.

Yeah, you defended CES. By chopping at my case like a howling insane axe-bearing Willy Wonka on chocolate deprivation. And of course you weren't aggressive on anyone else after Day 2 started; you were attacking me exclusively. I'd characterize your behavior as if you were a badger in his den; content to leave everyone alone as long as they stay out, but you will by God bloody the nose of anyone that gets near you. (RachMarie, Sixty, myself).

What I don't understand is the way Syryana's opinion keeps changing -- first I was scum because I defended CES, then I'm scum because of my exchange with Sixty and my L-1 vote on Whiskers, then I'm scum for hesitating to hammer Nacho, and now I'm scum because I have pursued him even when he stopped attacking me? How does any of that even make any sense? The reason I've "fixated" on him is straightforward, Dazed and Confused and Sotty are extremely town, CES is probably town and if he's mafia then I'll feel like an idiot, and between Syryana and Jason, its no contest who is more scummy.

Oh look, he's talking about someone that's not me for once. I feel like I mentioned that recently. Nah, just a feeling. Also, why is Sotty "extremely town"? Funny, I seem to remember Nacho using that precise expression about Rach.

I would like to point out that I'm not at all changing my opinion about you. I don't feel the need to rehash every reason I've made about you since the game started in every post; my posts would be even longer. Taking any one of my reasons singly is just silly. Besides, some of my reads came from what I was thinking

earlier

in the game. The null read for example was somewhere around page 9 of the thread; by then I'd degenerated you from town to null thanks to your poor reaction to the Sixty attack. If my reads seem disjointed to you, that's because the timeline of my reads is not synchronous with that of the thread.

[Syryana]

Syryana, I didn't attack Sixty so I'm not sure why you keep pushing that point.

Sixty attacked you, and you responded aggressively. Hence the term "the Sixty attack".

I also don't appreciate the way you are mocking me, even if you are scum there is no need for that.

You have my sincere apologies. I'm a sarcastic man by nature, and it tends to get a little out of hand sometimes. I won't apologize for the Wonka comment though; that was hilarious.

If I am town, you would lynch Sotty? Okay, suppose both me and Sotty are town, who would you lynch?

Depends on the night-kills. In general though, my order of lynching preference from most to least at this point is FourTrouble, jason, Sotty/CES, D+C.

Four, for obvious reasons, is my first pick. Jason, though I believe he is town, would be a serious liability at LyLo. I'd have to policy lynch him before then, because he's logically inconsistent and ridiculously afk. Yes, I know I said earlier that Sotty would be my second choice if FT flipped town. However, assuming it came down to LyLo, I

really

don't want to see Jason there, because then I'd be stuck with an inconsistent lurker and a really hard to read person like Sotty or CES. That would be a nightmare.

Sotty vs. CES would be a tough choice. I think they're both town, but I've got little question marks on both of them that would make for a seriously difficult choice if both FT and Jason flip town. If I absolutely had to pick right this second, Sotty. I find CES slightly less likely to be scum just because of his high-profile actions on Day 1 and if he

is

scum, it would mean he's been bussing his partner since the first day.

[Syryana]

I read through the surprisingly little I've missed and all I got from it is that Syryana is really really weird (I don't know if scummy yet, Mina thinks his story's been changing a little too much to the point of making her uncomfortable). I need to plow through that FT scum game that just finished but that's going to have to wait 'til Wednesday most likely since I have class all day tomorrow.

I prefer the term "extraordinarily eccentric". Though let me know what it is that bothers you about me; I'll do my best to answer yours and Sotty's questions.

Also, since you're reading scumgames, I have a completed scum game on-site as well: Open 481.

[Syryana]

Same question for you as I asked FT.

Assuming you mean the "how do you think you did" question, I thought I played pretty well, actually. I managed to convince a townie I was town, and said townie saved me from L-1 and helped me mislynch on Day 3 for the win. In fact, the only time I felt even remotely threatened that game was when I was at L-1, but the case that got me to L-1 was right for all the wrong reasons. Once I pointed out the holes in the argument and how fast the bandwagon for me built up, pressure eased off. I'm not sure I would have gotten past some of the older players, and the size of the game definitely helped, but I feel like I did well.

[Syryana]

^

[Syryana]

V/LA for the rest of the day.

Will be back late tonight or tomorrow.

[Syryana]

I'm alive.

@Dazed, am I understanding your concern correctly? You're worried that Jason is scum because of Nacho bussing him for two days and the informed posts?

@Jason, I would also like to know CES's thoughts on FTscum. I know why

I

think he's scum, but I don't know why

he

thinks FT is scum.

Going back to sleep until something interesting happens in this thread.

[Syryana]

I would kind of love anyone to dump some knowledge at this point. I'm seriously hating how dead this game is.

[Syryana]

I think Zach needs to reduce the prod timer to like 12 hours or something. This is ridiculous.

[Syryana]

No I mean, what do you think about CES hyposcum pushing Nacho confirmed roleblocker from day one when the scum would know that they had a cop and doc to contend with.

Unless I'm misunderstanding this setup, the mafia didn't know there were PRs of any kind until Whiskers flipped. I just don't see CES bussing his roleblocker from the get-go in that kind of situation.

On the other hand, I

can

see Nacho bussing his goon, like D+C theorized. Gonna have to think about it.

[Syryana]

I was just about to post the same

Before the flip scum only knew it was a possibility.

Day 2... would scum bus a RBer though with a confirmed cop/doc/RB/Goon setup in their opinion. I think that is what Sotty is asking

Would scum do it? Possibly. Would CESscum do it? I'm leaning towards no, as that would be really dangerous with a doc on the loose and we saw last night the doc stopped the NK. CES doesn't strike me as the type to trade his NK for some towncred.

[Syryana]

Syryana's scum style seems more distinctive though

I'd like to have a (short) conversation with you involving this after the game is over, if you don't mind. It'd be nice to have a professional laser-eyes give me some insights on my scum play.

[Syryana]

Hey, Sotty. Since you're leaning towards me as the last scum, what do you think of my hammer?

[Syryana]

You and CES can answer the question I put to Sotty also, D+C. And am I correct in understanding that if you had to pick a vote right now, you'd pick Jason?

[Syryana]

My own worry about it is that the hammer was basically done as an appeal to FT, the guy you're now voting.

What do you mean, an appeal to FT? Like, I hammered my partner to get FT to back off?

[Syryana]

Well, it's more like, I don't really see why you had to go on and say direct "Let me dispel that notion" at him.

Oh, I see. From my perspective, FT was avoiding a hammer on his scumbuddy and trying to deflect onto me with no more than a "Syryana/Nacho makes a lot of sense".

So my line you quoted was approximately the diplomatic version of "hell no, you and your buddy are going down!"

[Syryana]

Meh. Forgone conclusion. You could be doing a lot more to convince me on Four but you're not bothered to do so. You just seem kinda content with the game state right now and that is bothering me.

Same could be said for Four as well I guess. Which is part of the reason why I want to lynch you both.

I made my case on Four. Repeating it won't change your mind.

I'm happy with my play up to this point and I've made my lynch choice. I'm content with that. I'll be happy to answer any questions that you or anyone else puts to me, but at this point I'm just waiting for the non-voters to make up your minds.

[Syryana]

Stating intention to vote FT. Gonna give it some more time though so we don't get a fast hammer like D1

What changed your mind? I was under the impression you don't like CES.

[Syryana]

Alright, since conversation is at a standstill.

vote: FourTrouble

UNVOTE:

I'm not happy with this. Explain why your "other read" is FT, in detail please.

[Syryana]

r u 4 realz?

Yes. I don't like it when people put other people at L-1 without explaining themselves. Particularly in view of the fact that D+C has got me paranoid about Jason now.

[Syryana]

If I was scum, I'd sit on the FT lynch. No point putting Sotty in sarcastic/melodramatic mode for a minimal gain of towncred.

I find FT's 180 on me interesting. One post makes you think I'm town after you've gone after me all this time?

Jason, why is your other read FT?

[Syryana]

God lord.

Can we lynch both Four and Syryana? 646 and 647 are both so bad.

I agree that 647 is bad. As is 641 and 642. However, 646 is bad only because you've decided I'm scum. You're wrong, but at this point God hmiself could descend from the heavens with an angelic choir singing my alignment to the world and you'd still think I'm scum. I've tried to reasonably respond to every point you've made about me, yet you respond with "Nah, I don't believe you" or "LOL he bad scum LOL". So until you make a valid point that's not snide or WIFOM-based, I'm done trying to convince you.

On to business. I've to decide whether to vote Jason or FT. Jason's been eerily scummy all game, but on check of his meta he's pretty much like that all the time. According to said meta, he tends to try harder and make more sense when he's scum. On the other hand, Nacho was fairly confident that Jason would flip scum and has been idly bussing him for half of D1 and all of D2. Also according to Sotty, Jason has been lazy in all of his ongoings, so his meta may not be entirely accurate either.

FT. I was convinced this guy is scum at the start of the day and he's now battling with Jason for my lynch vote. I won't restate my case on him for the sake of brevity, but I will say that my scumread on this guy hasn't diminished so much as the one on Jason has increased to the point where it competes.

Both FT and Jason have made unexplained flips recently. FT's reason for flipping to Jason seems hurried and his reasoning for unvoting me doesn't sit right. Jason has yet to detail why FT is his alternate scumread and put FT at L-1 with zero justification other than "I'm bored". I'm going to wait until Jason explains himself before making a decision.

[Syryana]

read the game, I already have....

You've stated your choice is between CES and FT. You make vague references to FT in D2; the only reason you give was taken straight from my argument about him putting Whiskers at L-1 so CES could hammer. I want a comprehensive case on why you think FT is scum, not "I can't get CES lynched, so let's go with FT."

[Syryana]

I'll wait for FT's defense to vote, if he has one. I'm also curious as to what Mina's got to say about me.

[Syryana]

...but a couple of your stated motivations don't make sense and contradict each other.

Empire and I didn't talk that much earlier on, so I don't think I communicated my issues with Syryana well. Basically, it's that before the hammer on D2, our suspect pool was {Nacho, jason, FT}. Part of why I finally settled on you being town was because I'm a sucker and thought your whole explanation about reaction-testing jason looked unlikely to be fake.

Then you announced that that was actually a lie, and gave an explanation that actually sounded more implausible than the original.

I looked back over my ISO after you mentioned this. It took me a bit to figure out why I was contradicting myself, but I figured it out eventually. Here's the problem:

My Jason push was a decoy. I figured if I voted Nacho, people would look at the vote and go "wtf ehrmagerd the noob is voting for Nacho let's kill someone else". Therefore, I voted for Jason, working under the assumption people would look at it, get disgusted, call me terrible, and vote for one of the other scumreads. Sort of an anti-vote, if you will.

I picked Jason because he and Nacho were on pretty much everyone's lists and after reading Jason's scum meta I was fairly sure he was town.

I bolded the pertinent point. I misrepped myself terribly in that line and I didn't even realize it. You asked me, D+C, when it was that I read Jason's meta and decided he was town? Answer, Night 2. I read him over after Nacho flipped scum, but before Day 3 started. You can see the games I read in Jason's #522. If you ISO him and just skim the posts he makes, he puts a hell of a lot more effort into both his logic and his posts. It's hard to point to a specific example, but his scum play just has a... flavor to it. His scumhunting is less genuine; he doesn't ask many questions of people as scum, but rather points out facts and bases his "opinion" on those. Heck, even his grammar is a lot better in those posts than here. I made the erroneous assumption that because his play here is nothing like his scum meta, he must be town.

Back to the point. In the above quote, I stated I knew Jason was town all along, but did the decoy anyways to get Nacho lynched. This is false. It was an error born, it pains me to admit, of my own arrogance and my glee over hammering a scum. I read jason's ISO on Night 2 and told myself he was town since his scum meta is nothing like how he's playing this game. By the time of the above post, I'd convinced myself that I'd known it all along and I was some kind of badass for pulling the decoy off in the first place. Hence the misrep.

Here's what happened. When I initially voted for Jason, he was a null read as I stated in #450. My choices at the time were: CES, FT, Nacho, Jason. CES was off the table; that wagon was dead and I had begun to think my case on him was paranoia. FT was not a viable option either; voting for him would have gotten no information as people probably expected me to do it and it was obvious by that time that he wasn't going to be lynched that Day (explained in #498). So my choices were down to two: Jason and Nacho. Of the two, I felt Nacho was scummier.

My initial vote on Jason was influenced by two factors: a desire for information and my own sense of inadequacy. I was not lying in #498 when I gave my reasons for voting Jason and I did not believe he was town at that point. I omitted the fact that I'd rather see Nacho dead, but a Jason lynch wouldn't have made me sad either. The sense of inadequacy came from replacing into a game with a ton of veterans: CES, Sixty, Sotty, D+C. I told myself that I'm awful at this game compared to those players and inaccurately assumed that whomever I would vote for would engender a negative reaction towards the lynch of that person. Therefore, working under the assumption that my vote is an anti-vote I voted Jason.

Posts #498 and #510 came about after Jason's responses. The original desire to vote him stemmed from a desire for information and a hidden desire to lynch Nacho, but the responses degenerated Jason from null to scumread. By #510 I was convinced he was scum with Nacho: whichever one gets lynched was fine by me.

Then came Sotty's Nacho vote. At this point, it was fairly obvious Jason wasn't going to be lynched and Nacho was my greater scumread anyways. The decoy worked! Hammer time!

Then I read Jason's scum meta overNight and it became obvious to me he was town, since his actions this game are vastly different from his normal scum play, including logic, analysis, even grammar. I made the unfortunate error of not reading his town meta; I made the erroneous assumption that I didn't need to given the disparity between his actions in this game and his scum meta. A mistake, as it turned out (hubris again, I don't need to read his town meta when he's obviously not scum). I went and read his town meta as well, and his play is vastly different from that too, invalidating part of the reason I thought Jason town at the beginning of the Day. Another reason I gave him a town pass was Nacho's flip. I didn't think he was Nacho's partner as Nacho bussed him from the get-go on Day 1. It wasn't until D+C pointed out that Nacho implied he knew Jason was scum all along (and thus bussing him for towncred) that I realized my error.

That's how I got to the misrep in #545. My vote on Jason originated as a decoy, but I also was not lying about my reasoning in #498 and #510. The misrep was that I thought Jason was town all along. I got too impressed by my own cleverness and made an arrogant statement that matched neither the facts nor my own actions. I did

not

believe Jason town until N2/D3, nor had I even read his meta at the point I voted him originally. He was the weaker of two scumreads at the time and I voted him out of a desire for information and a desire to keep the Nacho wagon alive.

D+C - My towniest townread. They've been pretty obvtown the whole game, they've followed good lines of reasoning all game (well, minus a policy lynch on CES, that kinda backfired), and out of all their 100 posts I can't point to anything that would make me think they're scum.

This kind of raises my hackles, particularly since you actually HAVE pointed out something in this game that made you think we could be scum. It's too over-the-top.

It

is

a bit much, isn't it? I'd completely forgotten about the tell I posted regarding your "if we die tonight" post back on Day 1. What really convinced me about you guys was #479. Your analysis of your thoughts on CES was spot-on and I felt like I could actually see your thought process involving him. I found it extremely unlikely that you'd be able to manufacture something like that as scum and I evolved you into my biggest townread at that point, especially since the only actual scumtell I had on you was born of paranoia. You haven't done anything since to change my mind.

[Syryana]

What kind of defense are you guys looking for? I dunno what to say at this point, should I explain why I think I'm town?

I'm going to hammer this guy today unless someone disagrees. "why I think I'm town" indeed.

[Syryana]

My pleasure.
VOTE: FourTrouble

[Syryana]

Well, I guess I don't have to say anything then.

(That hammer post could've used an explicit mjollnir reference though.)

It's still twilight. You could say it anyways!

[Syryana]

Posting from phone. Called Syryana being the doctor after the quickhammer D2 to Mina. Figured the reason we didn't die N1 was because scum knew there was a doctor. Thanks a lot for the save!

Any time

I think Nacho felt you were the doc, since he RB'd you night 1.
Almost saved Sixty too, I coin flipped between you and them N1 and Sixty lost. Poor Sixty. N2 I knew they'd go after you, you were the most obvtown person here.

[Syryana]

I think the suspicion of obvtown originates from my old site. I played with the same 9 people every time, and they got really good at playing obvtown. It made me paranoid, to say the least. I had loads of fun this game! I'm interested to see Sotty's post game thoughts too.

[Syryana]

And it only took me quickhammering a cop. (Good read though.)

What'd you think of my play, CES?

[Syryana]

Out of mild curiosity, if you'd lived today who would you have killed this night, FT?

CES was pretty impressive with the way he figured things out, definitely taught me a thing or three about catching scum.

There's a very, very, very good reason we call CES things like Magic Man, lasereyes, and "really really fucking dangerous."

[Syryana]

Sixty's play really rubbed me the wrong way on day one, still kinda does. The fact Tierce's meta is to play that way is sorta mind blowing to me. I don't know if I am too old fashioned or what,

but I kinda expect townies to do more than say they are town

.

...But I did considerably more than that? It's not like I sat down, called myself Town and left everyone else to figure out the game.

I agree. The puppy eyes and assorted cutesy woofs were enormously helpful in hunting down FT <3