Open 480 - C9++ Game Over!

[Zaicon]

VOTE: Cheery Dog

I will not underestimate you this time...

[Zaicon]

I will find out sooner or later...

[Zaicon]

goodmorning, what was your reason to vote for Nobody Special in post 46?

Oh look, self-confessed bussing.

What does that mean?

SafetyDance, why did you specifically mention trying to get Nobody Special lynched due to lurking? You did mention 'everybody else', but why call out NS?

Cheery Dog, what was your interpretation of implosion's case? Basically, I agree with Cub Daigoro's reasoning here, so I'm curious as to why you disagree (preferably without using implosion's reasoning in Post 89, as that came later and elaborates on his initial reasoning presented).

Continuing with that, implosion, I have some questions...

What information from this question could be gleaned that is indicative of NS's alignment?

To see how Nobody Special responds and if there's a good reason for it?

NS probably doesn't have any particularly amazing reason for not having voted.

Perhaps not. But being called out on it might make NS do something about it: either state why he won't vote (which can be analyzed) or place a vote (which can be analyzed).

But the more important point here is Cub's focus on NS, rather than paying attention to anyone else. Cub's first four posts are all either about or directed at NS. They effectively ignore everything else in the game. And here, we find a mafia motivation for Cub's question: that it allowed him to ignore everything for the first two pages of the game. This means fewer things that Cub has to directly respond to without getting to see others' responses, which lowers his odds of being "caught" from a psychological perspective.

This is one possible interpretation... why do you think this is the correct one, as opposed to anything else (such as Cub actually trying to find out NS's reason for not having a vote yet)?

This passive phrasing is scummy because townies are attempting to, again, glean alignment information - rather than phrase the question in a way that implies that he wants to know what NS's reason is, he's just kind of whining at NS for a reason.

I disagree. He answered NS's question by stating the he would rather have a reason with the vote. I don't see why that (or why his passive vs active response) is scummy or why that means he is whining.

For a start, I'm not a fan of Nobody Special's "people haven't posted yet, how scummy of them, they must be scum, and that is an adequate defence for me not being scum" doesn't sit well. Firstly, not everyone late to the game are part of the nefarious scum, drooling at the chaos town have already caused for each other. Secondly, I'd find it just as likely (if not more so) that scum are already posting, just not posting content... just like NS.

What? He never said this nor implied this.

but this page is all about NS dodging questions and making dodgy excuses.

What? Where did he do this?

Post 114: Wait, what? Calling players Nobody Special's scumbuddy automatically makes the accuser Nobody Special's scumbuddy? Will you explain that to me? Semi-Edit: Basically, Post 127.

pieceofpecanpie: I don't like you calling players partners based on flips we don't have so early in the game. It never turns out well.

---

In other news, I'm voting for pieceofpecanpie. I don't like the way he reacted to SafetyDance's vote nor his "conclusion" (post 110) based off of it.

VOTE: pieceofpecanpie

[Zaicon]

Zaicon: Could you elaborate on what you "don't like" about POPP's reaction to SD? That's pretty fookin' vague.

I don't like the fact that pieceofpecanpie took the opportunity to accuse SafetyDance of 'jumping off of Nobody Special' when SafetyDance voted for pieceofpecanpie. All he bases that on was the fact that SafetyDance changed his vote from a semi-lurker to pieceofpecanpie. I don't know why he assumes that means SafetyDance's vote for Nobody Special was "meaningless". I also don't know why that's worthy of a vote (nor his later claim of implosion being SafetyDance's partner, which just seems like setting up lynches at this point).

[Zaicon]

Where did he make his vote 'seem important'? The only reason I see that SafetyDance voted for Nobody Special was for lurking reasons.

As for his vote on you, no, I don't think the fact that you FoS'd instead of voted was a good reason by itself to vote for you. But since it can easily be argued that he did that to see how you reacted to it (which is supported by his FoS --> vote change, which I think was intentional as well), and his reasoning in post 124 also making sense, I don't have any particular reason to believe he had scummy motivations for doing that.

[Zaicon]

He changed his vote to popp because some association between him and NS (which is ridiculous in the first place).

I agree that it would be "ridiculous". But I'm not convinced this was his only reason for his vote (if that statement was even serious in the first place):

As for his vote on you, no, I don't think the fact that you FoS'd instead of voted was a good reason by itself to vote for you. But since it can easily be argued that he did that to see how you reacted to it (which is supported by his FoS --> vote change, which I think was intentional as well), and his reasoning in post 124 also making sense, I don't have any particular reason to believe he had scummy motivations for doing that.

If he already believes that NS is scum

Why do you think that? I only see him voting for NS due to lurking reasons (anti-town, not scum, and there is a difference with what you are claiming).

[Zaicon]

@Mod
You have SafetyDance voting for two separate players.

~fixed

---

I don't have the time to do much at the moment. I will say that as much as I understand what Edosurist* is arguing in post 233, that isn't really relevant to what PoPP was claiming when he made his SafetyDance vote (which was SD 'jumping off' of NS).

*Wait, why did Edosurist pick up PoPP's defense in the first place?

As for the SafetyDance wagon itself, I'm not sure what the main argument against him is. Will someone summarize it again?

[Zaicon]

I didn't realize it had been so long since my last post... sorry.

pieceofpecanpie

At this point, I agree with Cub Daigoro:

This is so town v town.

I'm willing to believe that PoPP's reaction (the one I originally voted for him about) might have been more based on playstyle than alignment, so I don't think it's worthy of a vote anymore.

Nobody Special

I dislike the fact that he isn't contributing much, but for a Day 1 lynch, there are better lynches. Reasons have been explained by various users already.

Apozzle

I don't like the fact that he hasn't done much for the game. I have no idea what the point of post 162 was about, and I don't like that fact. I'm going to hope that Apozzle posts something productive soon (as in, not NS-related), which his last post implied he would do.

goodmorning

I really, really dislike your "explanations" of your reads. You did the same thing in our last game where you were scum. You are not providing any of your reasoning: "that's good/bad" is absolutely useless to anyone other than yourself. I would appreciate it if you clearly explained your thoughts on anyone you find particularly scummy (or particularly townie, for that matter).

VOTE: goodmorning

[Zaicon]

I'll post more later today, but a quick reply for now:

Oh and this rubbish about not sharing specifics because it helps scum, I don't know where you read that strategy as I, for one, have no idea what you're talking about. Is that your best excuse for casting a vote with opportunistic impunity and taking time out to make up some shit later on?

I'm just going to point out that this was probably directly taken from Nacho's explanation in a previous game (that goodmorning and myself were both in). Let's see... ah, here we are:

I hate posting reads because it lets scum know exactly where you stand, if they should bus, and where the weak points in your townreads are. I wanted to see where those players would end up voting without my read on them influencing their choice at all.

Of course, it seems goodmorning has dropped that particular reasoning at this point. Maybe.

[Zaicon]

ac1983fan

In a line, I don't see much of anything from ac1983fan that is very indicative of alignment. His posts don't go into much detail (and often has no more than a sentence in reply to anything), and while that's not scummy, it's not very helpful, either. Outside of that, I don't have any particular reason to believe he is scum.

@ac1983fan: I would like to see an explanation of your reads, not just a sentence-summary with no explanation.

Apozzle

While I understand the case on him (I believe it is summed up at the end of Post 280 and Post 327), I'm not yet convinced he is scum. His mason claim is plausible and his reads post (390) doesn't seem like it would come from scum. Overall, I don't consider Apozzle a scum suspect.

Semi-Edit: And now he's confirmed mason, so yeah.

Belisarius

I'm not a big fan of Beli's early play. He doesn't

do

very much, despite posting occasionally. He keeps his RVS vote until Post 76 and changes his vote in Post 117 based on other's points, but doesn't really do anything about it. He later states he is willing to vote for Apozzle (Post 219), also without his own reasoning.

Basically, I can't find any specific town motivation in his posts. It doesn't look like he is actually trying to accomplish anything himself; it looks like he is just going along with the game and what he is expected to do.

Cheery Dog

The only thing I really have to comment on is his goodmorning vote. I can't really say what's wrong with it, but it seems off. He unvotes GM in Post 453 due to a GM-town post, but soon afterwards says that he is willing to go right back on GM due to the deadline (and repeats that when he actually does move his vote back). I suppose the issue is that I have no idea why he voted for Apozzle in post 453, since his reasoning in that post no longer applied (according to his vote) soon afterwards.

Semi-Edit: I should also mention that I don't see the purpose in his questions in Post 292.

Cub Daigoro

For the most part, I like his play. There are some things that I don't fully understand (his 'conclusion' in Post 114, for example), but that could easily be misinterpretation as opposed to scum-motivated. Other than that, his posts seem townie and not how I would expect scum to play.

Semi-Edit: And he was killed. But I'll leave this in here anyway.

Edosurist

I don't really like his play. I don't like the way he accuses SafetyDance of having a scum-read on NS and for "overreacting" just due to having 7 posts in a row (Post 160). I don't like the way he calls out ac1983fan simply for not being in the Users reading this Forum list at that time (Post 163). I don't like the way he takes my point about PoPP and tries to redirect my attention towards SafetyDance's actions (Post 206). (Ironically, he calls out goodmorning for having an "obsession" with SD (Post 207).) Something doesn't feel right with his push on SafetyDance and then backing off of it. Post 519 seems odd, too... Meh.

Human Destroyer

There's not much to go off of... Apparently he hasn't read the thread, but that didn't stop him from forming a strong scum read on Apozzle. I don't really understand it, but there's not much I can do about that.

implosion

His early-game cases were weak, but I don't see any particular scummy motivations for them. He was able to explain them (and the other cases he made throughout the game) when questioned, which is the main reason I currently have a town read on implosion.

Nobody Special

I do hope he does something useful Day 2. I had the same impression as in Post 7 before I came into this game...

pieceofpecanpie

I'm not really sure what to think. I have no idea if his play is being caused by his playstyle or his alignment. I've assumed both of those things in the past (and I usually choose the wrong one), so I really don't know how to interpret his play. On one hand, he seems to jump on things quickly and twist them to a certain extent (intentionally or not), but on the other hand, he has posted

a lot

and I would think that the fact that he wasn't lynched Day 1 shows that his play isn't entirely

scummy

, which would probably have been shown by now. At the moment, I tentatively believe he is town-aligned.

SafetyDance

He has defended himself and tunneled Nobody Special. I could see his play coming both from town and from scum, so there's not really much to form a solid read on.

---

At the moment, I would like to vote for Edosurist, who is my strongest scum read.

VOTE: Edosurist

[Zaicon]

@Zaicon You vote for Edosurist, but your case seems to be focused on what you don't like about his play. Could you clarify why doing these things make him scummy?

To put it simply, I'm calling his motivation of these actions into question. I'll go into details at a later time.

As for my questions, is the same as most questions I ask, to help me understand people's stances and ideas they're presenting so I can get a better read.
Though why was that a semi-edit, when the other semi-edits were to do with Cub's death?

The questions look like mine did when I was scum... I can't really push that, but those questions don't seem like the same type of questions town normally asks.

As for the semi-edit, they were done at different times. Yours was done shortly after I finished drafting the post, while the ones about Cub's death were done shorty before I posted it.

I'll be honest, my reads in this game are almost always 90% gut because I kind of, frankly, am one of the worst mafia players ever.

I have a scum-finding record of about 1-7 (that is, out of the last 3-4 games, I've correctly found 1 scum). However, I'm not going to use that as an excuse for my play. I'm not going to call it scummy, but you can at least try.

There, is that a thorough enough explanation @Zaicon? Like I said, mostly just gut/I kind of suck but I try.

Yes, I did like it.

I'll respond to the rest after I get back from class.

[Zaicon]

I didn't criticize SD for having a scumread on NS. I did, however, criticize him for voting popp for association to NS.

But you did claim that SD had a scumread on NS, although SD never actually claimed that.

I think calling out ac was justified, since he was supposed to post right then, and he didn't appear to be online.

As you wish.

When I focused on SD when I was responding to you, I was trying to get you/people in general to look at and vote for my scumread. As I recall, that's what town's supposed to do, get scum lynched by convincing others that they're scum.

Based on this sentence:

Zaicon, you see popp's reaction as scummy, but don't you also see what SD did?

It looks like you acknowledge my claim and then direct my attention to SD's action. You don't address anything

I

claimed, just directed my attention to SD's play.

Calling GM for the obsession was a joke, because they're obviously familiar from past games.

I see.

NS - I'm still against his lynch. I don't want to waste a lynch on him

Out of curiosity, when

do

you think it is a good idea to go after (active) lurkers? I'm not calling for his lynch, but since you mentioned it, I would like to know the answer.

[Zaicon]

Cheery Dog

I'm happy with your response for now.

Human Destroyer

I don't agree with his method of "catch-up", but more because he's just commenting on posts and not analyzing them (for example, he votes for implosion based on RVS-stage comments with no explanation at all AND keeps it there). Also:

hey bro

we're out of RVS

why the fuck are you voting randomly and ignoring the very important content going on?

As far as I was concerned, it was still RVS. I didn't consider anything that happened before that "very important" or even worth commenting on at that point.

I like the catchup wall. It doesn't give me a solid read, but it shows he's not afraid of being readable. Scum are, and with good reason -- my catchup wall provided the town with tons of ammo to bust me with in Newbie 1305.

If you don't like walls, go ahead and skim them, or don't post them. I could use more transparency in this game.

What

are

you getting from it? He's not being "readable", as he isn't explaining himself in regards to his thoughts (and posting smilies in response to posts is even more useless). What value - what transparency - are you seeing?

Belisarius

I don't believe it, either. Why would scum be thinking someone else is "probable town" in the first place, considering scum know everyone else is town (except for an SK, if there is one)?

---

He didn't explicitly say that, but he implied it by saying others were quote "bussing" him.

I'm just going to have to disagree with your interpretation here. Yes, he did say others were "bussing" him, but I think that was based more on their actions than on NS being "scummy", which wasn't what SD was claiming to begin with.

[Zaicon]

I do not believe that implosion is a good lynch.

[Zaicon]

Scum baiting Apozzle to give out his reads so they can sheep a conf-town.

Don't you tell them what you think Apozzle!

Not until towards days end at least.

Do you really think it is in the best interests of town to not have a(n confirmed) town not share what he thinks?

I'm hard-resetting, this time without walls

Yay?

I... what? What is the point of you doing your page-by-page analysis (without actual explanations), only to "hard-reset" and change your reads (on some people)?

I'm assuming there's scum on this wagon.

I've already explained why; I think there was one (probably only one) scum on the Apozzle wagon

Where did this assumption come from?

and I have a townread on ac1983fan.

Care to explain?

I find it interesting that both Belisarius and SafetyDance had their votes off this lynch, but not Apozzle.

This looks like they want to avoid being on two town wagons.

Will you explain this further?

I don't like this, because I read POPP's reasons for voting Safety and it's actually because Safety's reasons for voting POPP are really damn weak. So this is a combination of a misrep and a chainsaw defense.

That's not his reasoning/conclusion in Post 110, which was where my claim came from. I also agreed that SD's reasons for voting PoPP were weak, but I also explained my stance on that as well.

This post is also fency about a lot of people.

I'm sorry I didn't have a particularly strong read on anyone?

[Zaicon]

Human Destroyer, do you plan to answer my questions or not?

Wait, hold on a second, why are you SK hunting? SK hunting is scum motivated in every way.

1) Why do you consider it "SK hunting" when the conversation started based on goodmorning's post?
2) Why is SK hunting a scum tell? I realize that scum have motivations to find an SK if it exists, but so does town...

It could be two, but I'm looking at who's on it and the order in which they got on it and I see one. I'm not saying it's impossible for there to be two, but I think there's only one on it.

Which came first: there is one scum on the wagon therefore POE says it is {Belisarius, SafetyDance}, or {Belisarius, SafetyDance} is probably scum and therefore there is only one scum on the wagon? (That was badly worded, but I hope you get what I'm asking.)

[Zaicon]

Which questions?

The explanation requests in Post 674.

[Zaicon]

Due to Spring Break next week, I'm going to have very limited access. I'll try to post every few days, but I can't guarantee anything.

I will, however, spend an hour or two today or early tomorrow dedicated to this game before I leave.