Open 480 - C9++ Game Over!

[Edosurist]

Hey guys. I'll just confirm here. I wasn't around this weekend, but I am now.
Reading, will post by the end of the day.

[Edosurist]

I would write my post now, but my computer won't charge, so I'm saving the battery for more important things... no offense to you guys.
In other words, I'm stuck to phone posting.

[Edosurist]

Guess who got a new charger.
Rereading...

[Edosurist]

My highlight of the game so far:

That vote happened in the past.
Why are you so concerned with the past?

Overreaction much?

You're one to talk. Remember your second post in Mini 1394? It was your overreaction to MM suggesting that you had forehand knowledge of my alignment.

I had more detailed reads on the following before I lost it when I turned off my computer, so I'll give you this instead.
Quick reads:
implosion looks town, and his play also looks very similar to Mini 1394, in which he was also town. By the way, I don't imagine him wearing a monocle.
Cub is weak scum for the tunneling on NS.
I'm not liking NS and Belisarius's active lurking. They make posts, but there's very little content to them. I'm hesitant to give a read beyond that, at least for NS, because I always think he's scum when I read/play with him for exactly for that reason, and I'm sure he's not scum in ever game he plays...

---

Hang on, why FOS instead of putting you're vote there? In fact, why would you not, unless you're actually worried about a wagon forming and not wanting to vote your scum buddy

FOS (vote): pieceofpecanpie

So you unvote your sure scumpick to vote someone you believe is scum by association to him?
wtf?
This is wrong. From your way of thought, NS is scum. Then you suggest that pecan is scum because he was too cautious to actually vote NS, his partner.
That assertion is a stretch, and you unvoted who you believe is scum in both scenarios to do it.

I'd also say that you appear to have overreacted, but in a different way.
Within the course of 5 hours, you made 7 posts. 7 fairly long ones, mind you.
It's mainly directed at pecanpie, but it also has things like this:

You're sheeping and you have a policy against policy lynching. The irony.

What you quoted wasn't nearly a policy vote. It looks like you were hasty to respond to another person joining your wagon.

VOTE: SafetyDance

Also, I'm curious. Why haven't you mentioned Apozzle once if you have a strict lurker = scum policy?

[Edosurist]

ac, anything you wanna say? I don't see you reading the thread right now...

[Edosurist]

O.o
Mah bad. Didn't see you in the users browsing list.
Re: 119, implosion explained what he meant already. He hadn't MADE a read on him. He has read his posts, though.
That'd actually be interesting, boycotting someone for a whole game. Not very pro-town, but different.

So you say implosion is grasping at straws? I agree with you Re: 67, but what do you think about Cub's tunneling?

[Edosurist]

Zaicon: Could you elaborate on what you "don't like" about POPP's reaction to SD? That's pretty fookin' vague.

I don't like the fact that pieceofpecanpie took the opportunity to accuse SafetyDance of 'jumping off of Nobody Special' when SafetyDance voted for pieceofpecanpie. All he bases that on was the fact that SafetyDance changed his vote from a semi-lurker to pieceofpecanpie. I don't know why he assumes that means SafetyDance's vote for Nobody Special was "meaningless". I also don't know why that's worthy of a vote (nor his later claim of implosion being SafetyDance's partner, which just seems like setting up lynches at this point).

Zaicon, you see popp's reaction as scummy, but don't you also see what SD did?
He changed his vote to popp because some association between him and NS (which is ridiculous in the first place). If he already believes that NS is scum, ockham's razor says that he should vote NS, not popp. Where is the town motivation in that?
I doubt SD would bus popp this early, that fast, so I'm calling SD scum and popp town.

[Edosurist]

goodmorning, why do you have an obsession with SD?

[Edosurist]

I'm undecided on NS right now. I think he should be our backup lynch, not our primary one.

If we're only lynching for policy, since active lurking is NS's town

and

scum meta, that shouldn't come before another potentially scummier player.

---

Agreed I've been active lurking pretty bad, for lack of any scumreads that aren't weaker than American beer so far. The "put a lot of lead in the air and see what sticks" technique doesn't work very well for me.

Any that do?

Yes. Townhunting/PoE, eliminating useless lynches like NS's, and one other trick that won't work if I come right out and say what it is.

So, how's that going fer ye?
Seems like you've been doing a lot of IioA now that you aren't active lurking.

---

PEdit:

Townhunting? is that seriously a thing now?

Yes

" NS is an easy lynch so vote but I'll act like I don't agree with the reasons to distance myself from the wagon later"

Agreed

[Edosurist]

@Zaicon
He didn't explicitly state that NS was scummy for more than one reason, but he called people out for bussing him at least twice.
If he votes two different people for "bussing" NS, he better think NS really is scum.

Okay, then maybe we can clear things up:

I don't support lynching him today

just

because he is difficult to read.
I also don't support

refusing

to lynch him because he is difficult to read.

I consider voting him because of his lurking acceptable, because it is generally scummy behaviour.

He should not get a free pass because "he always does it".

If that is the policy when you play with him, then you give him an advantage whenever he is scum.

Thaaat made things more confusing.
Lurking

IS

his meta that's difficult to read.

[Edosurist]

That shouldn't be red. I was going to highlight things for correlation, but I realized it didn't fit right... whatever.
Also, in case it wasn't clear, the quote and what followed was @Apozzle

[Edosurist]

"Sure"? Erm what? I

voted

NS for the reasons outlined in the post I voted him in. "Sure scumpick" is your phrasing. So you're line of thought on my line of thought is already off on some beaten, de-railed track.

Y-ya. I realized that afterwards. I sorta blended you and Cub together.

When there's a lot of posts to catch up on, I will try and catch up on them at once. If you like, in the future I can wait 12 hours between each post and incrementally answer people that way. I however, don't think that's a wise course of action.

I, personally, don't have chunks of time that large to spew out consecutive walls. FMPOV, you must've been really excited about something related to the game, so I called you out on it. But now, that just looks like your playstyle.

If you think preferring to lynch a lurker on the face of no other obvious targets is strict, again that is your own interpretation.

Yours

. As for Apozzle, sorry. I clearly fucked up. Henceforth I shall go to sleep with the Activity Overview firmly imprinted into my retina and I will list everyone's last post times on color co-ordinated charts for easy identification. Because I am a machine.

I assumed you had a strict policy because of the way you were treating NS. If you were targeting one lurker, why not the other?
I'm confused by the rest of the paragraph, though. It appears to be sarcasm, but I'm not sure what the purpose of it is.

Don't you see what Edoruist did? You can explain your reasoning further but he'll still grasp onto one straw. Are you in that much of a need of a quick-lynch. You appear very on-edge.

No, I was just reiterating the main point of my argument, and honestly, I missed the paragraph that's in your quote.

In fact, judging by this case against me being your only play of the day, what's your obsession with me?

You seemed so astutely away of the all the playlist before. It's confusing.

Well, I was very busy last week and I was gone this weekend, so I posted when I could, and what I thought was most important.You were most important because you were the scummiest.
And I don't understand what you mean by the last part. It's confusing.

UNVOTE: SafetyDance
I think I've lost my footing in this case, mainly because of 131. I need to look back at the game again.
But for now, I need to have lunch and relax some.

[Edosurist]

Hey, I promise I'll get to this. Mondays (and Tuesdays) really aren't my best day, unless you want me staying up till 3am.
If I don't add any content by Wednesday... well... you know what to do.

[Edosurist]

Before I want to say anything else, Zaicon's post 365 is incredibly town. It generally looks like my posts when I come back from a hiatus of sorts.

I mean, come on. 327 is Scum screaming "SHIT SHIT EASY WAY OUT MAYBE??????"

Actually, I thought the opposite. It looked like one of the better votes so far, and I agreed with many of his points.

What about it looks desperate and how?

This question was going to get answered right now, but I'm about to fall asleep on my computer so it'll have to wait. BUT I WILL REMEMBER.

--

Did you have a specific critique of my points there?

Asked and answered by 331. If you're looking for an in-depth critique of each point, go ask a debate team or an English teacher.

The problem I see here is that you say you'll respond to Beli, but tell popp you won't respond to him on a point that is almost identical.
And then you make post 373.

I dislike this because it's a full on case on popp (not to mention I consider many of those reads to be wrong, and some of the tells fundamentally false).
Why do you make a new case to present to Beli that completely disregards the post that you originally found scummy? If you legitimately thought that post was scummy, you would include it in your ISO on him, and you wouldn't brush it off, ignoring any request to clarify why it's a desperate post.

VOTE: goodmorning

[Edosurist]

Reads, in order of scumminess right now:
goodmorning <- Scum
Apozzle
Cub Diagro <- Slight scum
Belisarius
Safety Dance (I have a bad feeling about him. It's not what Cub's been saying, but I can't put my finger on it. Gut read for now)
acfan1983, Human Destroyer, Messiah (who's this guy?) <- Null
pieceofpecanpie <- Slight town
Cheery Dog <- Town
Zaicon
implosion

I intentionally skipped NS because I'm only voting for him if we have no other choice.

[Edosurist]

@GM Re: popp's small townread count
popp's probably just scumhunting, not townhunting <glances at ac>


And while we're on the topic of names and abbreviations, I'm just going to point out what I usually do once each game (Usually in my first RVS post, but I kinda missed my chance for that):
You can call me

Edosurist

,

Edos

, or

Urist

.

Why?
It actually translates to "Amazed Dagger" (major kudos if you know what language), so saying Edo is like callimg me "Amaz"... which makes no sense.
Edo is the ancient name for Tokyo, translating to "estuary".
I am not Japanese, nor am I a body of salty water filled with oil, pollution, or floating rubber duckies.

Arigato

Thank you

[Edosurist]

Edosurist:
So, let me get this straight: you mention/talk to Apozzle all of twice and then suddenly he's your second-highest scumpick? (in re:388) and you jump on the Goodmorning wagon just as its beginning to gain speed. IGMEOY

Well, I really only had time to discuss two people this day phase, so the only way I could fix that was with more content. Sorry.
I had been preoccupied on Tuesday when GM wrote 329. I then read through Wednesday, found that and her subsequent posts scummy, and placed my vote. I was just "unlucky" to hitch a ride on the wagon just as it got rolling.

Re: mason claims
I don't understand why Cub claimed too. It looks like he might be trying to be overly persuasive on it, so I'm still going to watch the two of them.


And I feel disappointed that I barely got to touch up or follow the game. Life's just been hard the last two weeks, but I'll have time this weekend and next week to contribute more.

[Edosurist]

(Semi-)Quick post before I type up my new reads after the flips.

Edosurist I'll admit I've only mentioned briefly in passing a few times before, but I think his scumminess is almost entirely based on his voting history and post #388. His only votes are on SafetyDance and goodmorning, both at times when they were popular wagons. Then in post #388 he posts a list of reads in order of scumminess; Apozzle places second on his list (also I am just now noticing that he GOT MY USERNAME WRONG ARE YOU ALL TRYING TO GET ME TO REACT DO U THINK THIS IS FUNNY PUNKS) despite infrequent mentions of him previously; at the time he was the other popular lynch candidate alongside goodmorning.

I only made 17 posts yesterday, spaced at times after the main wagons had formed, so I'm going to have to say that that's not really my fault, and my placement on wagons were out of my control.

The fact that I hadn't referred to Apozzle much that day is also partially because I was barely able to post yesterday. If you want to know why I thought he was scummy, see what others said, and what I said in 233. That's when he first caught my attention.


This is flawed:

Edosurist

I don't really like his play. I don't like the way he accuses SafetyDance of having a scum-read on NS and for "overreacting" just due to having 7 posts in a row (Post 160). I don't like the way he calls out ac1983fan simply for not being in the Users reading this Forum list at that time (Post 163). I don't like the way he takes my point about PoPP and tries to redirect my attention towards SafetyDance's actions (Post 206). (Ironically, he calls out goodmorning for having an "obsession" with SD (Post 207).) Something doesn't feel right with his push on SafetyDance and then backing off of it. Post 519 seems odd, too... Meh.

I didn't criticize SD for having a scumread on NS. I did, however, criticize him for voting popp for association to NS.

We've since clarified that the string of posts is really just his playstyle.

I think calling out ac was justified, since he was supposed to post right then, and he didn't appear to be online.

When I focused on SD when I was responding to you, I was trying to get you/people in general to look at and vote for my scumread. As I recall, that's what town's supposed to do, get scum lynched by convincing others that they're scum.

Calling GM for the obsession was a joke, because they're obviously familiar from past games.

I'll need more details regarding 519, but many of my suspicions there have now been shot down, which segues into my next post...

[Edosurist]

Before I start anything else too, the progression from 535 to 540 via 537 is really awkward, like there's some other association between ac and popp.

Also, ac, sorry about getting your name wrong, but I don't see a reason to get so fussy about it...
>.>
<.<
<clears throat>

[Edosurist]

Apozzle - I'm sorry I ever doubted you.

Belisarius - I've changed my read on him because his play is strikingly like mine, though I'll admit 538 disappointed me because I was hoping that he'd have some more thoughts.

SD - I don't like his reactions to cases against him, and the way he tosses around his vote. It looks like he's trying to get it to stick places.

ac

1983

fan - I read him as town during the night phase, but the ac-popp discussion caught my attention (I'll explain this tomorrow. It's getting late here so I'm trying to wrap this up)

HD - I'd like to see more from him. He's not looking very proactive right now. Also, the last times I've seen someone replace in with a post like HD's, they flipped scum... just saying.

popp - Much of what popp's said has matched my train of thought, but the way he backed off of ac so quickly and awkwardly bugs me, see above.

NS - I'm still against his lynch. I don't want to waste a lynch on him

Everyone else falls under various levels of towniness.

@ac
That was supposed to reference 398... lol

[Edosurist]

Case on Beli:

It's as simple as that.

Okay, I understand your case now. I would simplify it further as "gut". Fair?

Understanding a case against you, what is this? and then just discrediting it to gut, I don't like that at all.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Cub Daigoro

OK,

now

my CD vote is no longer random. Trying to understand the thought processes of others is how you read them.

This is a bad vote. Cheery's vote was perfectly acceptable, and Beli misrepped his intentions. He wasn't accusing him of specifically understanding a case, but the matter in which he did it.
Then Cheery responded, and Beli ignored him and left his vote there.

Then there's 183 where he admits to being a lurker and that he prefers to passive scumhunt, which doesn't appear to be his meta to me.

Then he rambled on about not lynching NS, and barely spoke about anyone else, despite his frequent posting.

219 There's the IioA issue. I still believe that reiterating why NS is a bad lynch instead of scumhunting falls under information instead of analysis.
He also took credit for a reaction test when he misread what CD was saying. Did I miss something? It looks like he's trying to create a defense for himself.

291 Really? I'm not even sure he's reading the game anymore. Misreading Cheery and ac/cub looks like he's posting for the sake of defending, then for the sake of posting just to post and look useful.

And look. His vote is still on Cheery right now, despite CD explaining his obvious typo.

I like the catchup wall. It doesn't give me a solid read, but it shows he's not afraid of being readable. Scum are, and with good reason -- my catchup wall provided the town with tons of ammo to bust me with in Newbie 1305.

Ah. Is that your reason for active lurking and making insignificant posts? You learned your lesson, eh?

All I mentioned above plus what others have said lead me to this:
VOTE: Belisarius

[Edosurist]

I didn't criticize SD for having a scumread on NS. I did, however, criticize him for voting popp for association to NS.

But you did claim that SD had a scumread on NS, although SD never actually claimed that.

He didn't explicitly say that, but he implied it by saying others were quote "bussing" him.

When I focused on SD when I was responding to you, I was trying to get you/people in general to look at and vote for my scumread. As I recall, that's what town's supposed to do, get scum lynched by convincing others that they're scum.

Based on this sentence:

Zaicon, you see popp's reaction as scummy, but don't you also see what SD did?

It looks like you acknowledge my claim and then direct my attention to SD's action. You don't address anything

I

claimed, just directed my attention to SD's play.

I don't deny that popp looked scummy for that, but SD looked even more so. Because SD was the scummiest and I don't think they're the same alignment, I told you that popp was town. I was explaining my thought process to town about how I came to a different conclusion.

NS - I'm still against his lynch. I don't want to waste a lynch on him

Out of curiosity, when

do

you think it is a good idea to go after (active) lurkers? I'm not calling for his lynch, but since you mentioned it, I would like to know the answer.

I'd save them for our final mislynch (by my count, we have at least 2 more left). A cop could clear the lurker/doc could save/claim mason/vig, maf, or SK could NK them, get them our of the way for us. Killing them now when they could be clear town later would be pointless and only harm us.

---

imp, I'll get back to you

oh, and ac, NS, stop having pointless arguments, kthxbros

[Edosurist]

I voted Apozzle because I had thought he was also probable town

How does this make sense from scum's perspective? I can't think of a scenario in which it does.

Also, do you have nothing else to say on the points made against you?

[Edosurist]

Emergency pre-edit while I was previewing my next post.

Cheery, that wasn't directed at you. That was directed at Beli. What are you talking about?
I haven't changed my mind. I'm voting Beli and defending you...

[Edosurist]

Let's start talking about Edosurist.

Quick reads:
implosion looks town, and his play also looks very similar to Mini 1394, in which he was also town. By the way, I don't imagine him wearing a monocle.
Cub is weak scum for the tunneling on NS.
I'm not liking NS and Belisarius's active lurking. They make posts, but there's very little content to them. I'm hesitant to give a read beyond that, at least for NS, because I always think he's scum when I read/play with him for exactly for that reason, and I'm sure he's not scum in ever game he plays...

These are his first reads of the game. The reads on me and Cub are okay, but the read on Beli is a bit awkward - he conflates NS's and Beli's active lurkings, which are very, very different. Beli's posts 50, 57, 62, 76, 117, 148, and 153 all contained content. NS's first post that I can construe as content is 65, and beyond that 81, 140 and

maybe

84. Point is, Beli had posted much more content than NS, so lumping them together as "active lurking" is ignoring the fact that they active lurked very differently. Sure, he does differentiate the reads on the two, but not based on their content. Again, the key word here is conflation - he's conflating NS with Beli, which ignores any specific content of their posts (which is fine since they were quick reads) but also ultimately misrepresents what they'd done.

How is "conflating" them by grouping them into a generic group that they both fit show anything about my alignment?

I'd also say that you appear to have overreacted, but in a different way.
Within the course of 5 hours, you made 7 posts. 7 fairly long ones, mind you.
It's mainly directed at pecanpie, but it also has things like this:

See my post 320 for what I think of this part of the post. The second part feels really exaggerated, to the point where I don't think the content is genuine.

OK, here it is:

I'd also say that you appear to have overreacted, but in a different way.
Within the course of 5 hours, you made 7 posts. 7 fairly long ones, mind you.
It's mainly directed at pecanpie, but it also has things like this:

Worse point. Calling that an overreaction is like calling the evacuation of a city an overreaction to a hurricane that's about to hit that city. Sure, it's a big reaction, but it's

called for.

When I say a big reaction, I mean that Safety was reacting to several things - like he said, he had to, because there were several things to react to. He did not, however, overreact to any thing in particular. pieceofpecanpie, on the other hand, very definitely DID overreact to one very specific thing.

And I've explained myself on this already. The string of posts made it look like he got really excited about the game all of a sudden for whatever reason, but I now realize that's just his playstyle.

[Edosurist]

@ac Can you elaborate on your new non-scumread on Beli that sort've appeared out of the blue? Especially since you've persistently voted for him the whole game.
To me, it makes perfect sense coming from scum. In fact, I count two tells in the interaction.
1. He voted on impulse with a weak and flawed argument
2. He now refuses to unvote, despite him being corrected
He's trying to stand firm to justify himself right now, and he's grasping onto that straw.

@CD Yah, I'll take credit for that mistake. I wrote that last night before all of your posts came in, then decided I should wait until I posted everything else.

[Edosurist]

Don't worry guys. This post really isn't as long as it appears. It's just a lot of quotes.

Then Cheery responded, and Beli ignored him and left his vote there.

So you're saying that I should unvote every time someone responds to me? No thanks, I think I'll leave my vote on whoever my top suspect is at the time.

No, everyone else that's responded to the "slip" sees it as a genuine mistake. I'm still challenging you to show me a scenario in which it

could

be a scumslip.

Then there's 183 where he admits to being a lurker and that he prefers to passive scumhunt, which doesn't appear to be his meta to me.

Then your meta is incomplete, but I'd have to break a site rule to set you straight. Not happening.

You can still link old games that aren't ongoing, otherwise, how can I possibly see that as a valid defense? Should I just trust you on this?

Then he rambled on about not lynching NS, and barely spoke about anyone else, despite his frequent posting.

Yep, I was the only one discussing NS. That's

definitely

how I remember it.

That's not nearly what I said. Where'd you get that idea? I'll explain what I meant differently.
For that whole portion of the game, you mainly explained why you were against a NS lynch. But, proving that NS is a bad lynch doesn't take ANY analysis on your part. To do that, you only had to reiterate your own policy towards active lurkers (that's where I got the "information" part of IioA). While what you said may look relevant, that argument could be copy-pasted to any discussion of lynching an lurker and achieve the same image.

It required no analysis on your part, but it gave you cheap towncred by looking active and critical, which scum want.

He also took credit for a reaction test when he misread what CD was saying. Did I miss something?

Yes. The point. I said the post Cub was talking about (#20) was a reaction test that didn't work. How am I taking credit here? Explain it like I'm 5.

That has nothing to do with what I read and understood. Why did you drag post 49/50 into this?
Sure, I'll take you through it.

I have one scumspect I have any confidence out of, when there may be up to 4 people who need to die. In this circumstance, how is a reaction test in any way inappropriate?

I read this as accepting Cheery's accusation that you were reaction testing, despite not referring to your self admitted scumminess as a reaction test earlier.

Again, I'm scum for not believing every word Cheery says

Well, again, prove how it could come from scum.

I like the catchup wall. It doesn't give me a solid read, but it shows he's not afraid of being readable. Scum are, and with good reason -- my catchup wall provided the town with tons of ammo to bust me with in Newbie 1305.

Ah. Is that your reason for active lurking and making insignificant posts? You learned your lesson, eh?

Damn! Busted! I knew I should have posted a catchup wall when I replaced in!

Waitaminute....

No, you're intentionally discrediting my argument.
You said that the last time you made wall posts and elaborated on your reads as scum, you got busted big time. Hey look, you're fluff posting (approx. avg 70 words per post) and passive scumhunting for once (you still haven't shown me a counter-example to your meta). Coincidence?

In your own words,

So is that all you've got? Lay on, MacDuff.

[Edosurist]

Hi, I haven't forgotten about you all. Busy weekend, but I'll post tomorrow or Wednesday.

[Edosurist]

I hate to say this, but I'm going to be extremely busy until at LEAST next Wednesday. I may as well go on V/LA.

[Edosurist]

Thanks for the prod, Mod. Didn't realize the deadline was tonight. I'm make an effort to push through and catch up, then make a vote.
Doing so now.

[Edosurist]

Scratch everything I just spent quoting.

I'm doc, saved popp last night.
Also, I'm not willing to save Beli tonight thank you very much.

In case, I was hammered, here's what I have to say:
Lynch either Belisarius, NS, or SD tomorrow.
NS: We'll be nearing that line I'd mentioned, and his play has become beyond lurking. He's now being completely anti-town. Plus, RB saying he didn't block last night sounds pretty easy to fake and get by at least one more day phase, maybe longer.

Don't lynch: imp, CD, popp

VOTE: HD
I don't necessarily agree with him being scum right now, but, fmpov, his lynch is the safest thing for town. (He's the second largest wagon, right?)

Also, @Thurhame
If you'd read that game I was posting in, you'd see I'm that game's mod, and I was making sure that game got started. It's a complicated setup, so it takes a lot of mod work at the start, more than I was hoping for. I hadn't made another post since the day I started that game until today, so... Don't take offense to it.

To everyone, sorry for not realizing the time I set for my V/LA was dangerously close to the deadline. Also, Third quarter for school is the time-consuming and laborious. I swear, teachers make everything due on the same date.

[Edosurist]

>Asks for the lynch of 3 players
>2 of them have decently sized wagons on them
>votes a completely different wagon

Yeah you're flipping scum.

No, all three of my choices' wagons flopped. So, as town near being lynched, I vote for the next largest wagon, regardless of whether I think he's scum.