Newbie 1336 (OVER)

[Mr E Roll]

Hello everybody,

Just a little background about my experience before I jump right into the game.

I’ve played a mafia variant called werewolf a handful of times before finding the mafiascum website. I’ve played two games onsite here. So I’m technically SE qualified however it has been well over a year since I’ve played so I’m just getting my feet wet again.

I’d like to hear about everybody’s else experience with the game if you don’t mind. I know this is a newb game so most of you haven’t played much on this site but have you played IRL or on another forum?

OK… onto the game.

MrZepher you’ve said some things that raise my eyebrow…

Two votes back to back on Captain Ribbit say either Xtian or Cybertronix are scum.
Cybertronix are you town? I find it highly unlikely that both SE's would be of the same alignment. /beingsillybutnotreally

If you find it unlikely that both SE’s are the same alignment if you are town wouldn’t you want to know if Cybertronix was scum. Seems to me you phrased that question how scum would have. And yes I realize that you are trying to pass it off as a joke to amuse yourself. But maybe that’s because you can’t amuse yourself by scum hunting since you already know who scum is.

You're putting an awful lot of pressure on what are basically really insignificant things and I'm starting to get curious as to why.

Isn’t applying pressure in the interests of town why don’t you want Jasonwazza pressuring people?

I personally don't like RVS to go on for too long it's too easy for scum to cause people to froth at the mouth
that was my attempt to nudge us out of it hence the "/sillybutnotreally" part.
If it made me look scummy then, fine. It was worth.

You don’t like RVS to go for too long but you don’t change your opening random vote even after concluding that at least one scum is on Ribbit’s bandwagon? Why not change your vote to put pressure on the people bandwagoning Ribbit?

Based on these concerns….

Vote:MrZepher

[Mr E Roll]

For the sake of discussion, I find the distinction between asking "Are you town?" and "Are you scum?" to be entirely trivial.

You may be right.

But either way the question was asked the only obvious answer would be for Cybertronix to assert that he is town. Therefore the only way for Mr. Z’s hypothesis to be correct is for him to be scum.

[Mr E Roll]

Eh i may have missed this bit in his post, RQS is generally frowned upon on this site BUT all my meta etc. is in my wiki.

Why is RQS frowned on? It helps generate discussion this is especially important in a newb game where discussion can quickly die down. Any discussion is good for town, you never know when somebody will slip.

Also I wasn’t asking about peoples meta’s I was more interested in their experience. Reason being if somebody tells me they have played dozens of games and then we catch them with a scum slip later I don’t want them to be able to pass this off as “I’m a newb not scum” situation.

[Mr E Roll]

sorry for RVS, gonna take it seriously now.
But still haven't got a reason to change votes.
Since two has already L-2 status, but still hasn't been lynched....
I must assume that 2 voters on a L-2 status guy are the scum, including me (muahahaha xD)
but the problem is the players that haven't responded to the recent votes yet, one of them can be a scum.

If you believe that both scum are contained within the subgroup of six players currently on the two biggest bandwagons why isn’t that a reason to change your vote?

Do you intend on actively doing anything to have a reason to change your vote or are you content to sit back and hope others generate enough discussion to give you a reason to change your vote?

[Mr E Roll]

Nice to see some activity overnight.

Muffin

, good catch on Messiah’s vote count mishap. You are obviously paying attention but you haven’t really attempted to join any discussions.

In one of your first posts you asked…

So, how's the scumhunting going?

How do you think the scum hunting is going now? Do you have any suspicions you’d like to share?

reham

I’m not trying to get you to “peel” your vote off of Mr. Ribbit, I’m was curious why your vote wasn’t on somebody that you concluded must be scum. However, it seems like you’ve given it some more thought and have decided that scum isn’t necessarily on one of the bandwagons. Well done. Seems like you pick up on this game fast which makes me wonder why don’t you care about winning? Do you think you learn more from playing a losing game than a winning game?

MrZ

You seem to know an awful lot about people’s alignments:

Nobody's going to get hammered by scum right now because both scum are already on either mine or Ribbit's wagon.

I expected you to, as a town player, give the benefit of the doubt; not threaten me with an extra vote you don't have.

How could you know so much so soon with so little discussion if you’re not scum?

Also why are you disappointed about Jason not fostering an open environment for discussion when you seem to have so little interest in participating going so far as to vote without any explanation until being questioned.

Jason

Your read on reham is what my question about experience sought to alleviate. It was meant to separate the real newbs from experienced players who might decide to play the newb card after a mistake.

[Mr E Roll]

Unvote

With over two weeks of the day left I’m not ready to see a hammer. I’d like to go into day two with more information especially considering we still have had only a handful of posts from several players.

MrZ

You seem to have convinced a few players, including myself, that you are scum. If you are town it would be very helpful if you post specific and clear opinions on the other players since it’s beginning to look like you are today’s strongest lynch candidate.

[Mr E Roll]

Captain seems like you are pretty unimpressed with Jason’s case against MrZ. Jason has based his case on what MrZ has done.

I’ll do the reverse.

Two votes back to back on Captain Ribbit say either Xtian or Cybertronix are scum.

Calls Xtian or Cybertronix scum but fails to move his vote.

I personally don't like RVS to go on for too long

This post is over twenty-four hours after he identifies Xtian or Cyber as scum yet he hasn’t moved his vote nor does he at this time.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Reham008

Finally moves his vote but it’s not to either of the people he’s identified as scum and he fails to explain his vote.

The fact that Jason is voting me without having created an open environment for discussion, or having created the opportunity to get a feel for the different playstyles present in the game seems like pretty bad play considering the IC status.

Cites Jason as having bad play because he hasn’t created an open environment for discussion . But he failed to explain his vote on reham until questioned and then the explanation really doesn’t lead to any discussion

My vote on Reham was based on a bad and potentially scum motivated post.

What was bad about the post? What was the scum motivation in said post?

In short I’m concerned about MrZ’s failure to vote his strongest suspect and his admittedly defensive discussions. I’m also concerned by how he seems to be concerned about how town will view his votes as demonstrated by his unwillingness to put down an OMGUS vote. And finally by his assertion that it is a fact that both scum are on the bandwagons. You argue that it is probable that at least one scum is on a bandwagon he insists that both definitely are.

I appreciate your defense of MrZ it’s good to keep an open mind but I would have liked it better if you could have put forth an alternate suspect.

What do you think of all of the other players, JasonWazza? It's obvious that you agree that MrZepher should in fact be placed at L-1 currently, although it appears that Mr E Roll does not. Mr E Roll, why did you remove your vote if, as Jason says, L-1 status is not a bad thing?

I removed my vote because I don’t want to see a hammer. We have loads of time left in the day why risk having the day end abruptly because somebody has an itchy trigger finger? I don’t believe having my vote on MrZ would add anymore pressure since I am making it perfectly clear that he is still my strongest scum read and the only reason I’ve taken my vote off of him is to prevent a fast hammer.

[Mr E Roll]

Reads. Somebody asked me for this I recall.

I can’t put much stock into your reads if you can’t be bothered to remember who is asking you questions, especially without any explanations.

reham and all the others who think MrZepher is scummy but won't vote him, can you at least TRY to find a second suspect to put your vote on so your vote isn't just wasted space and not doing half a shit for scumhunting?

It would be easier to actively scum hunt if more people were actively engaged.
But as for second suspects do you honestly think that Ribbit might be MrZ’s scum partner or was that just frustration talking?

Also why the fuck are you voting a null read over a scum read?

What makes this even more of a WTF? situation is he took the vote off of me his scum read to put it on Reham his null read.

Captain Ribbit... My vote persists because I also don't feel comfortable giving someone a L-1 status.
Someone could be fast hammered, and it sounds like a bad event.

Reham this makes it seem like you find MrZ scummiest, what do you think of Ribbit’s defense of him?

[Mr E Roll]

I actually think we should solidify the lynch sooner now rather then later, the less WIFOMic crap we have to sift through the better.

I’m not on board with this. I understand your concern but I’d rather have more time for discussion. Several players haven’t even left the RVS yet, let’s give them a chance to contribute before the day ends.

[Mr E Roll]

Xtian and Cybertronix at a minimum. And there are probably others that have not really contributed as much as they could. Are you ready to end the day Muffin?

[Mr E Roll]

Does anyone have any objections to me telling mrz to claim, I swear the whole town has him as scum.

Isn’t it normal not to ask for a claim until after a hammer is threatened?

Furthermore what claim could MrZ make that would sway your opinion of his scumminess.

[Mr E Roll]

Here’s my thinking on the matter; if MrZ can’t make a claim that would dissuade anybody from voting for him why bother. Worst case scenario it forces a counter-claim and helps scum more than town.

[Mr E Roll]

Jason if you were scum what claim would you make? I bet you wouldn’t claim VT.

[Mr E Roll]

I'm not being part of a quick lynch. I actually don't think this day is moving slow at all. We have already identified a probable lynch candidate. And we are beginning to get some discussion going. Why end it now before giving others a chance for input?

Do we really want to get into another RVS tomomorrow as Jason suggests?

What if we are all wrong about MrZ wouldn't you like to have a little more content to base your decisions on tomorrow?

[Mr E Roll]

The vote on Mr E Roll is for his his post after Ribbit came in to help point out the flaws in Jason's case. The logic in his post didn't seem entirely sound so I was going to pressure him on it.

It’s incredible that the vote on me was based on something I posted because I got it before I even replaced into the game! Lynch all liars.

Also, the vote on reham over cybertronix or Xtian was purely because I had a neutral read on him.

Wait I thought you voted against him because of a bad and scum motivated post?

My vote on Reham was based on a bad and potentially scum motivated post.

Yeah that’s what you said earlier. Were you lying then or are you lying now? Doesn’t matter--lynch all liars.

Vote:MrZepher

This is placing MrZ one vote away from being lynched do not vote for him unless you want to see him dead. Claims of accidental hammering will not be believed

[Mr E Roll]

You realize that getting 2 claims in one day is harmful for town right?

Your lessening the PR pool

Reham you’ve been told that a second claim would be harmful for town and yet you still want one?

I know you said you don’t care about winning but I can’t help but view this as scummy.

I look forward to hearing your explanation.

[Mr E Roll]

If I asked you for a claim reham would you give me one?

And let me be clear I'm not asking for one.

[Mr E Roll]

Lots of content from reham right at day's end.

And undelivered but promised content from Cybertronix.

I hope this is indicative of a more engaged discussion tomorrow.

[Mr E Roll]

@BrightEyedFish

can you please explain why my voting for MrZ has earned a spot on your radar? I thought I had adequately explained my vote. Seems to me if you didn’t like the reason for my vote you should have questioned me about it yesterday.

Also why is the fact that MrZ listed me as scum in post 103 adequate reason for voting for me? Did you forget his correction in post 129?

Mr E Roll should be null near the bottom and BrightEyedFish should be scum (opportunist voting) and JasonWazza should be scum as well (stretching and misrepresenting basically all over the place).

Also it’s clear that MrZ had Jason as his biggest scum read.

and YES me flipping town = Jasonwazza is scum.

It seems to me you are trying to play off the fact we now know MrZ’s was town motivated while severely cherry picking his posts to suit your needs. I think it’s because you think it would be easier to get me voted out than Jason. Any comments?

Enough about that.

@Reham

Several things about your play late yesterday jump out to me…

I will vote for MrZepher the moment everybody has agreed…

Why did you want to withhold your vote until everybody agreed?

But after some careful thought, I realized that my request could be done on the second day and the claim isn't necessary now.
So I retract my request for now, and ask for it on D2.

Why didn’t you retract your request after Jason said it was harmful to town but did so after I said it was scummy? Also why were you confident that both you and BrightEyedFish would still be alive on day 2 allowing you to ask for a claim?

OK, I would be hurtful to town if this goes any longer as someone may change their vote and relieve the pressure on MrZepher.

What made you change your mind about withholding your vote until everybody agreed? Do you now regret dropping the hammer?

[Mr E Roll]

I want to hit this one on the head myself, This defense is retarded, it's not founded on anything, clearly after every day you have to re-evaluate who you think is scum, saying that something should have been looked at yesterday and not today is pretty shit attack wise.

Valid point. I’m not saying that we can’t re-examine the reasons for my vote today just that if he feels that it was scummy at the time of my voting he could/should have questioned it then. If he feels it is scummy now that he has the benefit of hind sight he needs to explain why he now feels it is scummy.

OK i'm gonna start with voting Ribbit and see where that lands me

VOTE: Captain Ribbit

Hardcore defense of MrZ (seems like it was for town cred)
Backing off once MrE gets involved (not likely a partner more then likely didn't want to have to try and fight against 2 people for town credit)
Xtian had suspicions of Ribbit.

Why do you mention that Xtian had suspicions of Ribbit as a reason for your vote? That is an entirely WIFOMic attack. It seems out of character that somebody who tried so hard to avoid WIFOM on day 1 would resort to it so quickly on day two.

[Mr E Roll]

I can find motive, I believe that Xtian was killed because he wasn’t on MrZ’s bandwagon.

Everybody on MrZ’s wagon will be subject to scrutiny today that Xtian and Cybertronix won’t be. By killing one of those two the mafia keeps the pool of suspects larger giving them more room to hid.

However that is just a theory.

Here are a couple more: scum:Ribbit killed Xtian to get rid of somebody who suspected him (theory proposed by Jason). Scum:Jason killed Xtian so that he could make a case against Ribbit. And that is where the WIFOM comes into play.

[Mr E Roll]

@reham I don’t think much of your case against Jason…

Though your interests was for the town, your method was too unforgiving, straightforward, and narrow minded. I believed that you pushed too much on MrZ's case. It would also seem that you are trying to manipulate us into voting a SE put of the game, which would have reduce the number of experienced opponents which you have to face.

If you believe that Jason was acting in the interests of the town why should his methods matter? If you believe he is too straight forward and narrow minded you can always ask follow up questions or lead your own investigations.

Also I think it’s a little hypocritical of you say he is trying to get rid of experienced players when you hammered a SE yesterday and now are starting a campaign against our IC. Would it be fair to suggest that you are seeking to reduce the amount of experienced players you have to face?

Furthermore I don’t agree with your assessment that BrightEyedFish (who I will call BEF from now on) is less likely to be scum since MrZ flipped town. An opportunistic vote is an opportunistic vote. In fact I believe that since Xtian was night killed it makes BEF even more suspicious. Since that means not only was his vote against MrZ opportunistic but his vote against Xtian was as well. Really of the three actual votes BEF has cast he has not included any of his own analysis.

He voted for Xtian because he agreed with MrZ.

He voted for MrZ because he agreed with Jason.

And he voted for me because I was the third person to vote for MrZ, an idea provided to him by Jason.

[Mr E Roll]

@BEF any particular reason you didn’t mention that you were placing reham at L-1?

Any particular reason you didn’t address the questions I posed to you in post 186?

I think reham’s play is bad. But I think that has more to due with things being lost in translation and a lack of knowledge on how the game works. He obviously wanted to go ahead with a risky gambit on Day 1 and now on Day 2 he is leading an attack against the IC. Both plays seem too reckless for scum. I think no matter how bad his play has been he is making a bona fide attempt to scum hunt.

You know who hasn’t been making any efforts to scum hunt, but instead seems to be trying to find nice safe targets to vote for? BEF.

I don’t like how when BEF voted for me and was asked for an explanation he changed his vote instead of answering the questions.

I also don’t like how BEF seems to be constantly sheeping people.

VOTE: BrightEyedFish

[Mr E Roll]

@BEF I dislike your explanation on so many levels.

I voted for you for voting MrZep basically because your name appreaed 3 times in the list I put together in Post 181

Ok, but what did you find suspicious about any of the individuals actions involved with my voting pattern or can you explain why the fact that my name appeared three times in total was suspicious? We can all count, we can all see my name appeared three times now please provide analysis instead of just information.

In MrZep's list in Post 103 the only player that he has listed as scum is Mr E Roll.

Why include this little gem in the post you voted for me? It looks to me that you were trying to include extra reasons for your vote because you knew that you had not provided enough justification.

You MrZep voting pattern just stood out to me, but now I do not feel threatened by it, hence why I was comfortable in switching my vote off of you and onto reham.

Great you no longer feel threatened by my voting, why not? And why did you initially feel threatened by it?

I am sorry if it seems as if I am sheeping. But honestly, reham vote onto Jason was a really BAD move with very BAD reasoning behind it. And I think that alone is enough reason to put him at L-1.

I agree that reham’s articulation of his reason was poorly executed but his syntax has been off all game. But why do you think it was such a bad move? Didn’t Jason vote for MrZ isn’t he one of your person’s of interest?

Let me explain a little about my playing style in hopes that you may understand why it seems as if I am sheeping.
I am somewhat new to the mafia game (at least the forum versions) and I have notcied that on D1 I am typically quiet and a little reserved about my presumptions. D2 is where I start getting actively involved in scumhunting.

So you think it’s ok to not really start participating until day two? Well it’s day two when are you going to start participating?

One final question why did you begin the day with just a Fos on reham, but was comfortable voting for me? I am asking when do you Fos and when do you vote or do you see them as interchangeable?

[Mr E Roll]

I agree that reham’s articulation of his reason was poorly executed but his syntax has been off all game. But why do you think it was such a bad move? Didn’t Jason vote for MrZ isn’t he one of your person’s of interest?

OK why does this feel like a really soft defense of reham and pushing towards me as a suspect?

This actually seems scummy to me more for the fact it's not defending what it did, but all it's doing is saying "why are you looking at reham and not at Jason?"

In essence that is exactly what I’m asking.

One of BEF’s arguments for being suspicious of me is because MrZ called me scum. MrZ was undeniably clear that he thought your were scum.

BEF also thinks that at least one scum voted for MrZ. You voted for MrZ.

You seem to fit the criteria that BEF needs to call you scum. However, not only does BEF think it’s a bad move to vote for you, he feels comfortable sheeping you. It just doesn’t add up to me so I’m hoping he can explain it.

[Mr E Roll]

What you seem to be forgetting is everyone has a "gut" feeling 3 people can do the same thing, but 1 person may do it in a way that makes people's gut's tingle the wrong way, does that mean that it's wrong to vote based on the fact that the other 2 are doing the same thing?

I have a “gut” feeling this might be scum coaching.

5) It not that I think it is ok. What I meant is that since I am somewhat new to forum mafia, I have not developed a very good D1 method and I don't feel as comfortable fishing in D1 without good evidence.

I knew the newb card would be played by somebody at some point.

Also you do know the terms fishing and hunting are not interchangeable? Freudian slip or honest mistake?

Mod: Can we get a prod on AssMuffin please?

[Mr E Roll]

Yesterday when I asked about scum claims you waited until after MrZ made his claim to explain it so as to not bias his claim.

Today when I’m asking BEF about the double standard he is imposing on me and you, you choose to address the question before BEF responds potentially biasing his answer.

Just because you are fulfilling you role as an IC doesn’t mean you aren’t playing to your win condition.

[Mr E Roll]

Can you explain those red flags?

[Mr E Roll]

@BEF maybe I'm just being obtuse but what I'm seeing is basically "I voted for you because you voted for MrZ"

I won't ask you to explain it again since you obviously think you've explained it enough.

Can anybody else explain to me why BEF voted for me and what part of those suspicions can not be applied to Jason?

[Mr E Roll]

Actually Posts 207-209 appear five hours older than they are.

[Mr E Roll]

Prod dodging. I have a concert for most of the day, so I can't do anything right now, but expect reads within ~12 hours

How are those reads coming along?

We need to get some other people involved in the dialogue...

Finally something I can agree with BEF on.

[Mr E Roll]

reham did ask for a claim in Post 150 and later he even retracted his request rather quickly in 158. By the time I read the thread he had already changed his mind, so I did not think anything of it.

More information instead of analysis.

@AssMuffin you hadn’t posted in over six days when I asked for your prod. Within hours you post a prod dodge promising reads within 12 hours. We don’t hear from you until I ask how those reads are coming almost 48 hours later. You tell us we can expect those reads later but they still don’t come.

It is obvious to me that you are monitoring the thread yet have chosen not to participate. Why?

Are you scum just sitting back and watching town attacking town?

If we don’t get the reads you have promised soon I’ll have no choice to believe that is the case and move my vote accordingly.

[Mr E Roll]

Is anybody still interested in this game?

[Mr E Roll]

I have played on 2+2 and there we are supposed to "cover" the cop by leaving our own investigations.

Is that supposed to say “leading” investigations?

If so, yes you are encouraged to lead your own investigations.

Town can’t rely on playing follow the cop since there is no certainty that there is one in the game. And even if there is one if he revealed himself he would certainly be targeted that night.

[Mr E Roll]

Am I still in the same game?

Nice to wake up to so much activity.

Wish I had left myself more time to respond before I have to leave for work.

[Mr E Roll]

Lots of discussion on why we lynched MrZ after his claim of JK went uncontested.

I think the obvious answer is that nobody believed him.

First for scum to not get lynched they almost have to claim a PR so it wasn’t much of a stretch to believe that scum:MrZ would claim JK.

Second not every game has a JK so it may have gone uncontested because there was no JK in the game. Additionally even if MrZ was scum I’m not convinced that an actual JK would have come forward to counter claim since it didn’t look like it was necessary for the lynch to proceed and it would have let scum know who the real JK was.

As it happened in real time lynching MrZ seemed like the right thing to do. However now I think we did make a mistake. Although he would undoubtedly have been either NK’ed or lynched today we could have maybe gained some additional information from him or at least make scum use a NK to get rid of him.

Moving on.

@Sven…

BrightEyedFish
My most riliable town read, he was also the top townie for MrZepher who we know was a villager. I have been agreeing with his thoughtprocess in most posts.

Why do you say that BEF was the top townie for MrZ? In his final post before being lynched MrZ directed us to look at three individuals one of which was BEF.

If I die today and flip town there are several people you can look at:
Captain Ribbit
BrightEyedFish
JasonWazza

Also can you show me some of the thought process that you have been agreeing with, since my biggest problem with BEF is that he seems to not be doing any thinking on his own but is piggy backing off of others.

[Mr E Roll]

Shows ability to change his read with additional information, also seems like legit concern at being close to lynching someone.

First one on reham for hammering

Shows willingness to discuss, his mind isn’t made up, I think a mafia more likely would just keep pushing his target.

What you see as “an ability to change his read” and a “willingness to change his mind”, I see as an inability to commit. Even with his early suspicions of reham he hedged his bets by just using a FOS. His play seems entirely too safe like he is trying to avoid all suspicion and accountability, as though his major objective is to stay alive instead of finding scum. And it seems to be working although he was also on MrZ’s wagon and also allowed an uncontested JK to be lynched nobody is blaming him or questioning him the way Jason was questioned.

As far as your basing MrZ’s reads on post 103, I love how people keep forgetting his follow up post.

omg merked. I one off'd my last post so bad that I didn't even put everyone in the correct place.
Piss.
Mr E Roll should be null near the bottom and BrightEyedFish should be scum (opportunist voting) and JasonWazza should be scum as well (stretching and misrepresenting basically all over the place).

[Mr E Roll]

@BEF I think your reads are superficial but genuine. But why is it that you have not tried to engage Cyber or Sven in any dialogue if you have a null read on them? It’s day two shouldn’t you be actively scum hunting?

UNVOTE: BrightEyedFish

To me it is abundantly clear that AssMuffin was lurking and not absent. He acknowledged game events as they occurred. I believe that he was busy, but not as busy as he would have us believe. I think he was content to watch town self-destruct. It was only when pressured to provide content that he decided to replace out. My theory is that he couldn’t be bothered to manufacture reads. Even in his final post he failed to provide any insights nor did he apologize for replacing out or wish the town good luck. I believe he had so little interest in helping town because he was scum.

Sven’s actions have compounded my suspicions of that slot.

His reads do not seem sincere to me. His town reads on BEF, myself and Cyber appear to me to based on a perceived weakness of our play. This is troubling to me because…

But this is a newbie game, players that havent thought about the game as much and that can be "bullied" into bad decisions.

I don’t think he intends on bullying us but instead intends on winning of over.

I think if Jason is a mafia he would think twice before being rude because its a newbie game and newbies apply alot of feelings into their voting. He would more likely befriend everyone in my opinion.

Additionally he has specifically asked Ms M and Jason for their list of reads, but has failed to do so for the rest of us I believe that is because he thinks our reads are unimportant since he feels he can manipulate us.

Lady, do I look like a follower? I am captaining this vessel.

One other point of concern for me is…

Oh, I keep using the term "wolf" instead of "mafia", its because that the forum I played on before used that setup.

I believe this is a clumsy attempt to lead us to believe he can’t be scum since he doesn’t even know what they are called.

VOTE: Svenskt Stal

[Mr E Roll]

Wow, just because my predecessor was slacking and lazy dont make me a mafia, try to read MY intentions and actions.

If your predecessor was lazy scum, you can fix the lazy but you still remain scum.

I dont know what you mean by percieved weakness but this is a newbie game so I conclude that some here are inexperienced.

I believe that your town list reads as a who’s who of the weakest most impressionable players in the game. It seems to me that your intention is to bring those people to the end where you think you can either bully or buddy them into doing whatever you want.

I asked Ms Marangal and Jason because they were active and I wouldnt have to wait a day for an answer.

I wasn’t active? Because you and I were engaged in a conversation between when you asked Jason for his list and Ms M for her list. And if you wanted lists from everybody couldn’t you have just stated that in thread somewhere so that the more lurkerish people could be held accountable more quickly? Definitely seems like you only wanted the read list from certain individuals.

I keep using "wolf" because I am used to it, I will keep making that misstake althou I try to preview my posts, som get throu. We also used "village" for town and "seer" for cop. But its roleneutral, or "null" as you say, I would say the samething as mafia, because its true.

I’m familiar with werewolf and the terms of that game. I don’t find your use of wolf instead of mafia scummy. I find the fact that you pointed it out scummy since it seems to be an attempt to make us newbies believe that you aren’t mafia since you can’t even remember what they are called so you surely weren’t told in your PM.

You need to stop voting people because they change their reads on someone and start looking at WHY they changed the read.

Look he already is trying to tell me what to do. He also is misrepresenting why I changed my vote. Where did I say I changed my vote from BEF to you because somebody changed a read?

Its also very strange that you drop the heat on BEF when he istarts doing "scummie" stuff, he is obviously reading the thread but only posted in selfdefence and only gave a readlist when I pointed it out. To me it seems like your logic on my predecessor should make you suspicious of BEF, not letting him go! I dont get that, and sincere reads? he only made the effort after I called him out on it.

Did I drop the heat on BEF… I think I just turned it down. I still have questions pending for him to answer. I did however turn the heat up on you. One major difference between BEF and your predecessor is that BEF tried to contribute when directly pressured your slot did not.

[Mr E Roll]

The same holds true if he was a townie thou, you cant just take his lazyness without looking at what I have done.

I am looking at what you are doing. However I can not totally disregard your predecessor’s play.

This is my first game at this site so I have no idea how things are done here but if I were a mafia I would go for low hanging fruit in the lynches and nk the tough opponents, ifthats what you mean. Also this is a newbie game, there are alot of weaker players, but I was asked to play a game.

Lowest hanging fruit is reham at L-1 your strongest scum read.

If you look at the conversation your apparance is merely a popin, I thusly focused on the players that seemed the most active. I did ask BEF for one thou... do you feel left out? Yes I only wanted the readlist from certain players, the players I was interacting with.

BEF seemed more active than me? And where did you ask BEF for one? And since we were having a conversation even if you want to describe it as a pop-in wouldn’t that mean we were interacting?

It cant be an attempt to not confuse newbies?

It could be or it could be something more devious as I’ve explained.

I am telling you what to do because I KNOW my role. I KNOW what comes of lynching me. I have no desire whatsoever to be misslynjched in my first game at this site. Stop painting this picture for all to see, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Why do you want me to stop painting this picture? If there is nothing to my accusations what do you have to fear from me bringing them forward? Don’t tell me I am wrong and expect me to believe you, convince me I am wrong by engaging in discussion instead of trying to nip it in the bud.

[Mr E Roll]

True, but thats not what you implied, you implied that since my predecessor "was a lazy scum" i.e. your mind is allready made up.

I was attempting to demonstrate how Muffin’s actions could be scum motivated. I then coupled this with my suspicions of you since entering the game. Your rebuttal was just because Muffin was lazy doesn’t mean you are scum. But if Muffin was lazy because he was scum then you are scum even if you aren’t lazy. I believe that you being scum is my strongest theory right now so in that sense yes my mind is made up. This does not mean that I will not consider other theories or consider new information as it appears.

So how is that in any way part of my plan to "save weaker players"? You stated that it seemed like "I was saving weaker players".

Reham is the lowest hanging fruit, but he is not the weakest most easily manipulated player. In fact he is in such trouble because of his reckless independent play style. Getting rid of him quickly would fit in nicely with your self identified scum meta and my theory that you want players easy to manipulate at endgame.

I dont even know what you are saying here, if you are asking why I havent asked you for a readlist its because I havent felt a need for it.

My initial premise was that you only asked for certain read lists because you didn’t value others since you could manipulate other people more easily. You responded that you only asked for certain read lists based on activity and interaction. I attempted to show this was not true since I was more active than BEF and was interacting with you,

Me implying that BEF only defended himself in his popin, he then posts a readlist.

Accusing some one of only defending themselves is nowhere near the same as asking for a read list.

How am I supposed to change your mind when you build your case arround what my predecessor did? No matter what I do your view of him will be the same, which beg the questions why you didnt vote him at some point.

You won’t change my mind by insisting that I only think you’re scum based on Muffin. I didn't vote for Muffin since I only had his lurkerish behaviour to go on. Now I have a read list that doesn't seem genuine and a theory of a more experienced aggressive scum looking to exploit the weakness and vulnerablity of a newb town.

If you reallly have questions ask me and assess my answers, but when you say "look how he is saying what I should do" "He also is misrepresenting why I changed my vote" Like you are putting on a show and not really interested in trying to figure out my thinking, then I get suspicious and very uncooperative.

Some players might say that getting suspicious and uncooperative would be overly defensive and a scum tell. If you are town I understand the suspicion because I would be attacking a confirmed town in your view but why would you be uncooperative how is that helpful to town?

[Mr E Roll]

OK just want to say something here, you keep painting picture's but we are here to lynch scum not to make up a billion hypothetical situations.

Ok Mr. Expert how do we find scum without coming up with a hypothetical situation.

Do we speculate on the hypothetical night kill motive like you did against Ribbit? Oh wait that is a hypothetical situation.

[Mr E Roll]

I'm actually glad you showed up Jason since I was hoping to get your response to the back and fourth between me and Sven of particular interest.

I am telling you what to do because I KNOW my role. I KNOW what comes of lynching me. I have no desire whatsoever to be misslynjched in my first game at this site. Stop painting this picture for all to see, you are barking up the wrong tree.

This is a very scummy thing to do MrZepher, you have just said you are town, can you prove it? NO, then don't fucking say it.

Pretty harsh reaction to MrZ saying he is town but a free pass for Sven?

OK i'm gonna try and stop this back and forth walling because whatever your alignments are it just makes more stupid crap to sift through.

Why does Muffins laziness = scum?

Why does Sven's read list = scum?

And i want quotes with reasoning beneath them.

Really you want to stop the walling by having me create a new wall Ok seems like strange logic but whatever.

Why does Muffin laziness= scum? Laziness does not equal scum. But laziness is not beneficial to town. If everybody in town is lazy nobody scum hunts. Therefore laziness can be scum motivated.

Why does Sven’s read list= scum? It doesn’t ring true to me. His reasoning for making BEF his most reliable town read is razor thin. It seemed like a read list that opportunistic scum would create, as I’ve explained. Not only would it allow him to hammer reham with almost no further discussion but it would justify him bringing sheep with him to the endgame.

These are theories. Do I know Sven is scum… no, but what I do know is that if nobody puts forth any theories then town will just be voting randomly. Something you suggested yesterday…. Hmmmm.

[Mr E Roll]

How do you think we should proceed here. Something tells me that we should just go on and lynch reham. As of right now, I do not think anyone else is deserving of a lynch.

Why are you calling for the lynch? Even if you haven’t identified a second suspect you do know there must be a second scum member right?

I find this especially troubling since in your previous post you said “…I just need more to work with…” and “…we only have half a story…”,(post 343 iso 28 if you feel I’m not giving enough context) seems odd that if you feel you don’t have enough material that you would want to end the day so abruptly with out any effort to gain more insight.

I'm liking BEF and MrE as scum, meaning Jason isn't as scummy as I originally thought.

anyway, I could give reason to why I think those two are scum if I looked but right now, I'll just leave it to guts.

Clearly I can’t defend myself from a gut feeling so it’s a frustrating accusation. But I must admit I actually don’t blame her for throwing out such a emotion based accusation. Since it’s the only type of accusation that won’t get the WIFOM treatment. She probably doesn’t want to post a hypothetical theory so Jason can post something like… oh great more crap to sift through.

[Mr E Roll]

And besides, I was not calling for the lynch, I was only putting it out there to see what others thought. Jason's comment in 345 was straight and to the point. I agreed with the logic.

I was giving you too much credit, of course you weren’t calling for the lynch that would require you to be held accountable. Something you are dreadfully afraid of. Of course you were going to follow the recommendations of somebody else because you seem incapable of independent thought.

UNVOTE: Sven

VOTE: BrightEyedFish

[Mr E Roll]

Voodoo Lady, vote BEF, Jason isnt not getting lynched today.

I hate you. This is exactly what I saw happening, you manipulating people to pick who you want to take to the end. Don’t bother Jason I know this can be town motivated and I should stop posting stupid crap.

Just like Voodoo Lady I can see a BEF/Jason scum pairing. I can also see a Sven/Jason scum pairing. In fact I’d vote Jason right now except I think that would force a Voodoo Lady lynch and obviously I’d prefer a BEF lynch.

I just can't wrap my head around why you'd say that you'd rescind your vote for someone if they claimed a PR, then go out of your way to explain why Mister Z was obviously fakeclaiming jailkeeper a few posts later.

Honestly, I think you're scum going after anyone you think might have a power role... which I think would explain your sudden change of heart re: reham quite well.

I saw this too. But Jason did say he would rescind if they claimed “a” PR not “any” PR, later he explained they he would have rescinded if MrZ claimed doctor.

What I find most suspicious is his case earlier today against Ribbit(now Ms M).

Hardcore defense of MrZ (seems like it was for town cred) Backing off once MrE gets involved (not likely a partner more then likely didn't want to have to try and fight against 2 people for town credit)
Xtian had suspicions of Ribbit.

I actually agree that he defended MrZ, but was it for town cred? that’s a hypothetical theory. Backing off once I got involved because he didn’t want to fight against 2 people that’s also a hypothetical theory. Xtian had suspicions of Ribbit. That’s true but so what, it’s only relevant if that was the motive for the night kill which would be a hypothetical theory. Damn Jason you need to knock it off with all these theories.

This is what I saw happening all day one Jason insisted that MrZ had to be scum. But he kept stressing Ribbit was town only if MrZ was scum. It was like he was setting up his next days kill in advance. Which is fine if it’s not solely dictated on how somebody flips. Scum knows how somebody is going to flip.

So why would he be singling Ribbit out?

Major difference between him and everyone else is he is looking back and going through everything and actually using HIS OWN logic to be convinced of town/scum

, not to mention do you see scum defending a partner;
a) this early
b) that hard
c) and one that already has like 5-6 votes prone on him.
I think his actions thus far is more likely to be town.

I’ve included the whole post so as not to accused of trying to manipulate context but have bolded what I find relevant.

I also didn’t like that he included the night kill motive since that was in my opinion an openly WIFOMIC attack which is something I’m ok using but he seems to hate. What made me go hmmm even harder was when he admitted this later.

How was it way out of the norm?

The quiet guy in the corner is actually a normalish sort of kill target.

Less links to people.

Really it’s normal to kill the quiet in the corner? So why paint a picture that Xtian was NK’ed because he was suspicious of Ribbit.

[Mr E Roll]

In my last list Jason was my top town read, but has now fell to the bottom. But now I think a Jason/Voodoo pairing is very plausible.

I’m not seeing this.

Reham/Voodoo voted Jason.

Jason voted Reham.

Jason definitely seemed willing to lynch reham. Although I’m sure the scum are willing to bus each other it definitely wasn’t necessary for them to do so at that time.

In fact to me it seems more likely that Jason is bussing you than he was reham. And that this post is just you trying to distance yourself from Jason so as not to implicate him when you flip scum.

But if you believe that Jason is now you biggest scum read why are you still voting for Voodoo?

[Mr E Roll]

I wanted to give Jason a chance to address what I said before I threw my vote his way.

That’s a courtesy you didn’t provide to me.

You seem to have been very deferential to Jason all game can you tell me why?

[Mr E Roll]

Here is the order of votes for MrZep:
1. AssMuffin
2. Jason
3. Mr E Roll (First vote, directly after replacing.)
4. BrightEyedFish (L-1)
5. Mr E Roll (UNVOTE)
6. Mr E Roll (Re-Vote for L-1)
7. reham008 (HAMMER)

Hope this helps.

Can you tell me why you put a footnote next to number 3 indicating it was my first vote? But you didn’t put footnotes next to 1 or 2 indicating what vote it was for Muffin or Jason?

[Mr E Roll]

Schrodinger's gun. If Mr. Z had claimed doctor, Jason would have said that he was obviously scum trying to bait out the town doctor before he died. And if Mr. Z claimed cop, Jason would have claimed that Mr. Z was scum trying to bait the protective roles into targeting him.

So if you think Jason was going to refute any PR claim why do you think he wanted one so bad? Couldn’t wait a few extra hours to see the flip to find out if he got a PR lynched? Do you think if MrZ claimed vanilla townie Jason would have backed off and looked for another target?

[Mr E Roll]

@Sven you seem to be a big advocate of using your vote why didn’t you use your vote between Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:54 am when you unvoted Jason and Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:12 am when you voted for Voodoo Lady? Couldn’t/shouldn’t you have been using your vote to pressure people as you are now calling for others to do?

[Mr E Roll]

I understand that reham was your first choice but you didn't apply it anywhere else so why do you expect Voodoo to move her vote from her first choice?

[Mr E Roll]

I think BEF/Jason or Sven/Jason are the two most likely scum pairings so...

UNVOTE: BEF

VOTE: Jason Wazza

This places Jason at L-1 do not vote for him unless you want to see him dead.

[Mr E Roll]

I don't need any clues, who was on both townies wagons-- Jason and Sven.

Ms M start your investigation by looking at the interaction of Sven and Jason yesterday.

Let’s start with Sven’s list of reads. I’m going to focus on BEF and Jason.

BrightEyedFishMy most riliable town read, he was also the top townie for MrZepher who we know was a villager. I have been agreeing with his thoughtprocess in most posts.

Does any body really think that BEF had a thought process that involved anything other than sheeping Jason? If Sven and Jason had been allowed to carry BEF into today they would have been practically guaranteed a scum victory.

Jason Wazza
Having very little time for stupidity which I think and hope is a sign of an eager townie. I have also been agreeing with him on his case against reham, rehams vote yesterday really looked like it was a checklist for town approval. At the same time I am hesitant since he is the most experienced player in the game he would be capable of doing this as mafia. That is not fair, I know but still the thought bothers me.

If Sven was genuinely concerned that Jason would be capable of acting in the manner that he was as mafia why did he engage in the “read building exercise” with Jason? Tell me the way they interacted yesterday doesn’t look like a team. He votes for his most reliable town read on the say so of a guy who he is supposedly hesitant to trust? How does that make sense?

Ms M what happened after you noticed Sven was sheeping Jason? Sven almost immediately votes for Jason to distance himself in an effort to break the connection that you had noticed. He engages Jason in what I would describe as a sparring session before unvoting a mere hour and half after placing his vote. He then keeps his vote in his pocket for close to 72 hours because he can’t place it on his first choice.

Which is odd since he has this to say about voting …

So you are robbing the town of information by not voting.

Maybee not allways, but its a tool, its avaible, why not use it.

Its my experience that you get alot more with voting than without, the vote is the fist of reason.

[Mr E Roll]

Schrodinger's gun. If Mr. Z had claimed doctor, Jason would have said that he was obviously scum trying to bait out the town doctor before he died. And if Mr. Z claimed cop, Jason would have claimed that Mr. Z was scum trying to bait the protective roles into targeting him.

So if you think Jason was going to refute any PR claim why do you think he wanted one so bad? Couldn’t wait a few extra hours to see the flip to find out if he got a PR lynched? Do you think if MrZ claimed vanilla townie Jason would have backed off and looked for another target?

I gave this a lot of thought before coming to the conclusion. Jason does keep MrZ if he claims doctor but he does so as scum. He jumps off the Mr Z bandwagon and NK’s him if he isn’t lynched either way he gets big time town cred for trying to save the doctor. If the NK doesn’t go through he knows the game set up. He waits until somebody asks why the doctor wasn't killed and then pushes the wagon until the JK has to come forward to defend Mr Z or he saves the knowledge until he is forced to claim. He doesn't keep JK or cop because they are too dangerous for scum to keep around.

[Mr E Roll]

If you believe someone is scum you lynch them, period.

I agree that’s why I didn’t care what Mr Z claimed because I believed he was scum and needed lynching. You wanted the claim because you had an ulterior motive as scum.

[Mr E Roll]

That's too funny that means the whole town wanted Mr Z dead.

As usual I got confirmation bias, especially this last day, so let cyber slide under the radar since I had him as town due to POE.

GG.

Thanks for modding Messiah.

Thanks for IC'ing Jason.

Jason why the big read change on me today?

[Mr E Roll]

When did you guys figure out that Voodoo Lady was the doctor?