Mini 1428: Reign of Flame (Game Over)

[Axxle]

How did cryo offend you, jiffy?

The royal we's.

Or, you know, he's a hydra.

[Axxle]

VOTE: pirate mollie

She's never had an issue with jumping right into RVS before (looking at a bunch of past games, all of which she's town)

I don't believe any two heads in a hydra can ever agree in such a bloc fashion.

Meh, I also got the two confused.

[Axxle]

VOTE: pirate mollie

She's never had an issue with jumping right into RVS before (looking at a bunch of past games, all of which she's town)

I have never played with you before and if you are going to meta me at least get it the fuck

right

. I have no fucking idea who you are I am pretty sure I have not played with you unless you are an alt and then you better own the fuck up.

I had this same retarded conversation with wisdom once:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=24809

I fail to see your point. You *did* participate in RVS that game, you voted specifically to get reactions not because of any scumread.

[Axxle]

also I love how I have asked axx twice if we have played together before since he claims meta knowledge on me but he has yet to answer.

Not really. You essentially told me to tell you if and only if I played a game previously with you. (I have not).

[Axxle]

How does this make me look stupid?

Wow. Defensive, indeed.

PM kinda went ballistic right after I voted her, slinging f bombs left and right. And she said herself that she was playing defensive. Maybe i'm spoiled because the mod in my first game specifically asked people not to curse, but it just seemed like an excessive amount of rage considering the number of votes she had on her.

VOTE: Venmar

Venmar voted jon with no explanation, called it serious, then unvoted when this was addressed. Fluffy posting, I haven't seen an actual thought from him yet.

I was going to criticize this but...

Vote: Venmar

[Axxle]

?

[Axxle]

I have never played with you before and if you are going to meta me at least get it the fuck right. I have no fucking idea who you are I am pretty sure I have not played with you unless you are an alt and then you better own the fuck up.

"If you are an alt, fess up" Not "Tell me if I've played with you"

[Axxle]

also if we have played together before own up

Basically "Own up only if we've played together."

[Axxle]

I have never played with you before and if you are going to meta me at least get it the fuck right. I have no fucking idea who you are I am pretty sure I have not played with you unless you are an alt and then you better own the fuck up.

"If you are an alt, fess up" Not "Tell me if I've played with you"

That's really out of context. And IIRC, moving some things around. Let me go fetch the actual quote.

VOTE: pirate mollie

She's never had an issue with jumping right into RVS before (looking at a bunch of past games, all of which she's town)

I have never played with you before and if you are going to meta me at least get it the fuck

right

. I have no fucking idea who you are I am pretty sure I have not played with you unless you are an alt and then you better own the fuck up.

I had this same retarded conversation with wisdom once:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=24809

She says we have never played together, she basically asks me to prove her wrong, which I don't because she's not.

[Axxle]

So instead of telling her that she's not wrong, you just choose to ignore her? Yeah, that's going to get you far in this game.

If everyone said "you're not wrong" to everyone else whenever they're not wrong this would be a very large thread.

[Axxle]

I really thought this post implied that I was just going through and reading past games, instead of actually playing games with her.

She's never had an issue with jumping right into RVS before (looking at a bunch of past games, all of which she's town)

Maybe I should have been clearer, maybe she should have been clearer, I don't know. I don't see the point in arguing this any further, so sure, I could have clarified.

[Axxle]

Well obviously

you

wouldn't, it's against your wincon! You thilly gooth.

Assuming he's not a jester.

My first reaction is that I don't feel like he's the type of player that would have voted john for "gut" if he was scum, he would have a bit more reasoning than that. (From the posts this game, I haven't played with him before nor have I read *every single game* he's been in, heh)

[Axxle]

I keep reading this game and can't really figure out where the scum are.
UNVOTE:
I'll try rereading during lunch.

[Axxle]

I'm not really feeling the cooldog wagon, I think as scum he would have just kept tunneling Majiffy, no need to make his reads very complex. It seems like voting for BB was trying to get things happening when he noticed that the rest of the town didn't think that the reasons for Majiffy were sufficient.

VOTE: ANG

Some of his posts feel like posting from a level of abstraction above, saying things that town says just because town says them for example. I guess I mean his posts seem forced.

Take this one for instance:

Oh, are we finally lynching Cryo?

choo choo all aboard

I can't help but think he saw someone say this once as town and thinks it's an easy thing to say for town cred.

[Axxle]

If I make train noises they'll definitely think I'm town! I'm so devious.

Your one mistake was being in a game with Axxle.

[Axxle]

Nah but Maestro is trying to play like careless town where I think he'd have actually done some scumhunting by now.

I don't know, I've played two games with him that I can remember. His scum game was very active, he flaked out of the town game (which you were also in). This seems a lot more like the town Maestro than the scum one.

[Axxle]

Where are the 3 non posters?

I've been trying to think of CD's motivation for slipping that he's not a VT. I guess the only reason would be if he wanted to get more information on rolenames as scum.

His fakeclaim seems believable, I doubt UN would give a claim to scum that let slip there's a masonry or something similar. I also doubt CD came up with it on the fly since there wasn't a way to tell *how* the masonry was communicating when he claimed.

I don't like the initial reasons Maestro gives for believing the claim though, "Lansdown" could easily be in a scum PM even if UN hadn't mentioned it yet.

[Axxle]

I'm thinking jon, Cryo, Majjify are all town looking at CD's iso. I'm a bit VLA for the weekend I'll reread and place my vote on Monday but my initial reaction might be Venmar or Molla busing.

[Axxle]

I didn't really get the case on CD, and if was just about his setup spec I'd have been against it. It was mostly how Maestro was writing him off really bothered me.

(still on train)

[Axxle]

- Honestly? I've been chasing CooLDog around ALL of day 1 until ANG decided to go all scumlord on me. Then, I returned to him on Day 2 except I thought about my hammer rather than ending the day so soon.

Looking at your iso I really don't see how you were chasing CD all day, sure your vote was on him a lot, but it feels like you just mention things in passing. Your vote for him mentions that his 'scumhunting' of majiffy seems fake, you never bring that up again. You ask for some votes on CD due to a poor position on the BB wagon, but don't specifically direct it at anyone and never mention it again. You say that CD/Majiffy is Town v. Scum, which weakens your position that CD is scum. Later on you defend not voting for ANG by saying you have a better developed read on CD, again failing to push that read.

Then all of day 2 you mention you think one of CD/Majiffy is scum, ask CD to claim with the intent to hammer. Then fail to comment on the claim for a day making joking posts. And even then you say we should lynch CD or Majiffy, without any preference for one or the other. You mention scumlord twice in your iso in very much the same phrasing, which is a tell that you're lying about what you think of him.

What claim are you talking about here anyway?

I don't know what to think. I still have bad vibes from CooLDog from his Day 1 claim but for some reason... i just don't know.... gut?

It feels like you wanted to seem like you're suspicious of scum without really pushing the lynch to potentially get credit if he does eventually flip, or maybe you get lynched and we'll think he's town since your vote was parked on him most of Day 1. A reread just makes you seem like a likely partner to me.

Vote: Venmar

I'd prefer this to a Maestro lynch, but I'll hammer Maestro if I get no support.

[Axxle]

Scratch that last part (it was written before a full reread), I want to lynch Venmar today.

[Axxle]

I feel my read on Venmar is a lot stronger than the one on Maestro.

[Axxle]

Maestro lynch would be better than a no lynch, yeah.

[Axxle]

I'm the Lansdown Armorer, as long as I live my passive ability allows others to keep fighting

that's why I believed CooLDog and I said that when I said I believed him

obviously the partner is setting me up, but I'm V/LA this weekend so this's kindof all I can offer

ATT only Majiffy and AJ were voting you. Who are implying the partner is? In Post 677 you vote Cryo.

CryoNudist, Majiffy, Aj the Epic, BBmolla are voting for him at that moment, there's a post count right above that post.

[Axxle]

Did we ever get that deadline?

(And cake is scum and pie is town... right?)

[Axxle]

good

good

[Axxle]

stating intent to hammer

slip slip slip up guess who I learned this from

maestro

What happened to this? Do you still think it's a slip? And why did you indicate an intent to hammer instead of just hammering?

[Axxle]

I'm confused now. Did you not see his earlier claim?

[Axxle]

I'm confused now. Did you not see his earlier claim?

you really are not reading the thread are you

Maestro claimed here:

I'm the Lansdown Armorer, as long as I live my passive ability allows others to keep fighting

that's why I believed CooLDog and I said that when I said I believed him

obviously the partner is setting me up, but I'm V/LA this weekend so this's kindof all I can offer

You declared an intent to hammer here:

stating intent to hammer

slip slip slip up guess who I learned this from

maestro

Please tell me what I'm reading wrong.

[Axxle]

All we have is this regarding a deadline:

Days last seven days minimum, and Nights last 48 hours.

[Axxle]

You're stating that Maestro is town for something he did prior to your intent to hammer.

[Axxle]

His claim is a town one. Not only do I SERIOUSLY doubt a scum could formulate a role like the one Maestro claimed

This doesn't make any sense. Cooldog formulated a very similar role. (PEdit: What Cryo said)

Axxle: Why do you think Maestro is town?Why do you think Maestro is town?

Mostly he's behaving differently than a previous game where I played with him when he was scum. He was a leader there. He also started the game very uninterested, similar to a game I was in with him where he flaked out of disinterest. This isn't too powerful of a read, I think how he dismissed the CD wagon seemed too easy but he's come up with a very similar role that might explain it.

I'm actually wondering if he would softclaim like that as town, I would think he'd fullclaim or just say he had reasons to believe the claim. I'll get back to you on that.

Right now the thing that strikes me as pretty scummy is that he's mostly attacking people on his wagon and is trying to please people who have indicated they want to hammer (me and mollie). It seems to survivalist to be town.

@Mollie: What about maestro's posting is town flail as opposed to scum flail?

PEdit: Venmar, Maestro's roleclaim is vague enough that it could be talking about a lot of different things (vig, lynching, voting). He doesn't really need a hard claim for it unlike CD's

[Axxle]

Not everyone gets juicy roles, and I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that his death would prevent us from voting and lynching, I would quit on life because if that would be the case, all hope in humanity and setup balancing would be lost.

"Fight against the dragons" was all we got from him and presumably all he knows about, I was just pressing the point that it's vague, not that it will actually do those things.

[Axxle]

Elaborate. I see a pretty clear line with Maestro's role and an already claimed role.

- I meant it as in CooLDog probably claimed mason encryptor because he learned that fuzzy was a mason, so he thought he could slip through our fingers by claiming a random or "off the wall" role such as encryptor, after finding out there is a mason group.

I DONT see a similar connection that Maestro could've made to formulate his own claim unless you're trying to hint that ANG's "Hunter" role could've been some kind of a killing role and Maestro claimed accordingly.

I think that's a reasonable assumption to make.

[Axxle]

Someone had to bus CooLDog.....

Axxle, jon_h61, Maestro, pirate mollie: Do you agree or disagree with this and why?

"Had to" is too strong a word, but it is most likely.

[Axxle]

VOTE: Venmar

PM, I'll help you bus Venmar and save you for tomorrow, deal?

@Venmar: From what I've gathered from your iso, you think Cryo is scum because of CD's iso and PoE of the wagon. How does CD's iso implicate Cryo? Who do you think could be scum if CD wasn't bussed?

[Axxle]

UNVOTE:
I'll reread later.

[Axxle]

Let's look at it another way. Let's say you are actually town. We were at 5v2. If we lynched you and you flipped town, it would be 4v2 going into night. Venmar already said he could only save himself 1 time. Scum takes him out. Day starts and it's 3v2. Scum use that day kill tomorrow and it's instant win. Huh...guess it doesn't make sense for them to use it today if you were going to be a mis-lynch eh? Boom, Lawyer'ed.

Scum couldn't be certain he wasn't WIFOMing. Any smart protective role outting themselves would WIFOM the shit out of their abilities.

Anyway, whatever. My argument is based on the facts. Your argument is based on me AtF'ing based on the facts. Occam's, go!

Do you know what Occam's razor is?

Dayvigging in response to a lynch is much simpler than in response to wifom.

Vote: Majiffy

[Axxle]

So you assume scum couldn't hammer?

[Axxle]

You mean MYLO, right?

[Axxle]

4 players left?

[Axxle]

BTW, MC needs to happen. Axle, why don't you go 1st.

And why are you minimally posting?

Don't have much time and these posts didnt take very long.
I'm a citizen. Mollie next.

[Axxle]

Axxle, please summarize where you stand right now. You been pretty absent all game, I want to hear from you. Why are you not the last Dragon?
Consider this a last stand that you may, or may not survive.

Without rereading I'm pretty sure you're town. Cryo is a weaker town read and PM has never been a town read for me so I'd go with mollie as the last scum. I'm not voting until I go over everything though.

Mollie: What exactly about jon made you think he was a doc and not just some other town role?

[Axxle]

jon, can you claim?

[Axxle]

I know he was implying it for a while and wanted him to actually say it to make sure he was consistent. Missed where he actually claimed.

I'm not seeing too much white knighting from him, I'll recheck though.

[Axxle]

Going to a meeting now, but should be able to get back to this after that.

I don't see him white knighting that much. It's true that you're the first person to mention things in the citizen PM and since CD was caught because of VT speculation I doubt scum had a citizen PM (might have mentioned this before, don't remember) and because of that you're pretty town.

[Axxle]

Except for correcting me on a vote count mistake, you pretty much ignored my reservations of you, and my votes on you. Would you mind addressing them now?

I tend to ignore votes on me since the point of the game is to lynch scum not not get lynched, but at this point yeah it's needed.

"I very much have the feeling that Axxle's play has been disingenuous from their first post on mollie and the RVS debacle all the way through to his excuse for CooLDoG's slip. So much so that I'll"
I'm not sure how to respond to this. Everything I've said this game has been genuine, and hey I might have caught scum day 1 post 1 (or two I guess). I think what happens is that I tend to really try to not sheep so I go after the weird little things.

"It bugs me that I have you as my vote, yet you don't address that, AND put me in your Town pool. Makes me unsure of my read."
See above, I tend to ignore votes on me.

"I'm still unsure of your slot. The first two thirds of your ISO is defending your meta read on pm. The other third is mainly defending your not getting the CooLDoG wagon. You said you'd vote by Monday. I'd like to see where you stand. Hopefully not sitting on a fence."
Well I did the whole thing on Venmar afterwards which didn't exactly pan out. If I was scum I think I would have just lynched Maestro here since I already expressed so much doubt earlier.


PM is probably the last scum, forgetting our power roles is absolutely unforgivable. We just lost our doctor so scum wouldn't think there's another protection role. Failing to do so lost us a lynch. I mean Venmar said he was protecting AJ when he claimed, you can't just forget that. I don't like how she isn't reevaluating her jon read who she thought was a flailing town power role, and has since admitted to be a citizen. I could probably go back and find other things but I think I'm good.

Vote: Pirate Mollie