Newbie 1339 - Game Over! (Scum Win)

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Nabber

[Nachomamma8]

this isn't going to be a normal newbie game either, it seems.
we don't have any true newbies checked in so far.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't have to submit a vote so soon, do I? It seems pretty scummy to come out the gate and be all 'Okay, this guy, he's dying'.
Can't we do this by lot, lol?

Finding scum is our first priority. Never lose sight of that as town, and you'll be alright.

@Nacho Where you got there where no newbies this game? Your source seems unreliable now.

none of you are true newbies
some are still tenderfooted
but we only have one who is truly new.

[Nachomamma8]

welp varsoon is town
and he should probably put a vote down

[Nachomamma8]

In fact, if you were town, wouldn't you want to discuss things that might possibly lead to our success?

Yes, of course I'd want to discuss things that are beneficial for us Townies to win. I just wanted you to highlight how it could be contributing to our success as Town. In fact, all I wanted to know was your mindset behind the topics you brought up. Now that you have explained satisfactorily how it can help our success as Town, my question has been thoroughly answered.

I noticed you adjusting your phrasing to "us Townies" after Varsoon stated that you were referring to the town as you weren't part of it before, which is not necessarily a scumtell I subscribe to, but the adjustment itself/lack of response to this accusation is not something I find myself to be a huge fan of.

We should hold a quota of so many posts per real-time day. Falling under the quota doesn't benefit town at all, and so those are people we can lynch if we don't agree on a definitive mafia target.

Some people will post less regardless of the quota, scum or town, and thus this does not necessarily help the town out in any way. Lots of activity is nice, but instead of making activity boosting a central part of the game, it's better just to engage and be active yourself. Activity hunting is something everyone can do regardless of alignment.

I'm not too happy with his posts, tbh. And everyone saying "oh he's definitely town" doesn't help it. You call scum town, they will continue to act town. I just recently made that mistake myself. Never believe someone is completely town.

okay cool but people are calling him town for a reason.
why do you think that he is scum?

I find Varsoon very suspect for not finding me scummy, but rather pointing out that scum could use me for an easy target. Could be a scumslip.

unvote

Vote: Varsoon

See what I said about reads?
Scum's just trying to turn town on itself.
If you scum make town lynch me, it will only turn out poorly, because then town will see how obvious it was that they were being manipulated.

Sorry about saying that you'd be an easy target. I'm just trying to pre-empt any scum moves.

you're reacting too strongly
calm.

I'm here now, my meatworld weekend got away from me. I've read quickly but I am literally headed out the door. I don't know if I should stay in here, I'm in two games at once and that may not have been such a good idea. As I'm sure you can tell, I think the posting quota or even expecting people to post a ton is not a good idea. I'm more available on weekends, except for this one, and holidays. I'm working about 14 hrs/day Mon-Thurs. So that's how things look for me in terms of posting. Will try to come on later tonight and give reads, or if you guys would rather I replace out I can do that too.

If you can keep up consistently with one post per day, you'll be completely fine.

Meanwhile,

Vote: RandomYoshi

He turned on Varsoon too quickly, and I haven't really liked all of the fence-sitting/lack of actual scumhunting that he's done so far.

[Nachomamma8]

why are you retracting your varsoon scumread?

[Nachomamma8]

That didn't come close to answering my question. Why do you think he's town?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: fuzzybutternut

What did he say that made you believe that he was town?
This is not hard, this is not difficult. Stop dodging questions.

[Nachomamma8]

i don't care if it scares you or not
it's not supposed to scare you

what did he do?

[Nachomamma8]

you said it could be a newb tell, but when you voted for him, it was more likely it was a scum tell
what did he do that made you think that it was NOT a scum tell anymore?

[Nachomamma8]

If it's something that you aren't such a huge fan of, why are you even going with it? And yeah, I do realise I could have pointed out how ridiculous the accusation was. Sadly, I was tired at the moment of writing that post so I didn't really that that into account.

When I say I'm not a huge fan of something, I mean that the thing is scummy. And why does fatigue make you hold defending yourself over calling out shitty attacks?

I'm not used to games immediately starting off with a non-game related conversation (the posting quota) so I wasn't quite sure on how to get things started. However, as soon as fuzzy made the first game-related move (voting somebody), I felt obliged to go after what he said.

I don't understand why.

[Nachomamma8]

When I'm tired, I can't think clearly. It's literally that simple.

so why didn't you bring up the shitty attack on you when you were awake and clear-thinking again?

fuzzy made the ball rolling. That was what made me think he was Town. But, I don't know if I should trust that read at the moment.

I'd suggest you start being more independent and stop sheeping people's thoughts just because you think they are town.

[Nachomamma8]

okay so what are your reads right now

[Nachomamma8]

do it before you get tired

[Nachomamma8]

so give me a town-scum list, please.

[Nachomamma8]

if i had two votes, I'd put my second on RY.
but since i'm trapped in this world of limited power, i'm forced to wait for fuzzy. don't disappoint me, kid.

[Nachomamma8]

I voted no lynch because I have no clue who scum is. This isn't anti-town, straw man. This is a legitimate tactic. Meta me.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13969

try again.

Imo, having your vote on nothing is worse than having your vote on town, if you are town, or likewise if you're scum. It doesn't help forward the game any.

no, it does. having your vote on no one and refusing to give stances is much, much worse.

try again.

[Nachomamma8]

that's a sample size of 867 games.

[Nachomamma8]

no lynch is a non vote because we aren't no lynching today and you are using it as an excuse not to participate in the game. who are your suspects and why? what do you find scummy and why?

[Nachomamma8]

from my experience, no lynch has never ever ever been a good idea. stats back that up.
and yes, i did. you won't always find something amazing. so ask other people who have reads to explain theirs more, find someone town and sheep them, vote someone in order to get a reaction.

[Nachomamma8]

Why is it an obvious town post?

[Nachomamma8]

What I think is the -real- reason that fuzzy suggested a no-lynch is to see how other people would respond to that suggestion, so that he could get better reads.

Maybe. But if that's what his purpose was, I don't see why he would suggest people look at his meta. That seems more like scum showing that it's an established pattern and thus doesn't actually make him scum, which wouldn't make me even a little bit happy.

[Nachomamma8]

Ugh, I keep wanting to clear Yoshi of suspicion I have of him, but he keeps buddying with "X is town" and slamming votes against whoever we're against, like he's trying to get a wagon started.

yeah, i see this too.
do you think he'd be more cautious of sheeping as scum if he was already called out for it once?

[Nachomamma8]

not sheeping, following along with my flow.

[Nachomamma8]

Say I was to explain everything right now. That'd surely cause trouble for us.

No. That's what we're asking you to do because right now there is either a breakdown in communication or you are scum as fuck. I want a claim much less than I want an explanation.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: RandomYoshi

When I ask you to explain, I want you to explain your actions. I want you to explain why you find Varsoon scum, why you find Varsoon town, why you find Varsoon scum again. Making moves on information that you are completely ignorant of (i.e. specific roles) is foolish and not something you should be doing before you can effectively pick out scum and effectively find power role tells. Voting No Lynch is not an optimal move; no lynching Day 1 is a very shitty move. You can say statistics can't prove things with certainty; that is completely true. What they do pick up on is patterns. And when these patterns are backed up by arguments and personal experience, generally it's good to pick up on that and listen to what people have to say.

Scumhunt. You reap what you sow, and you are planting nothing. You are drawing unnecessary attention to yourself which is good and well for reactions, but I don't want to spend a day lynching you when I could lynch a solid scum suspect. Place a vote down, pursue them as scum. Stop being useless.

[Nachomamma8]

Scumteam is Yoshi-kuror0. Kuror0 is lurking hard, keeping his head down, minimal contributions. Yoshi still has the problem of compulsive sheeping. If you would like to be useful, you could take a position on one of those two!

hint, hint.

[Nachomamma8]

everyone can be horribly, horribly stubborn.

[Nachomamma8]

I've seen kuror0 play before. Right now, he's avoided talking about a lot of alignment-related things, tried subtly to weave in some paranoia about you, and made a big deal out of the quota thing but really didn't talk about anything else. This doesn't seem to be town kuror0 so far, but I could be wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

On the other hand, I've never seen Nacho this lynch-happy before. I'll keep an eye open on you, Nacho.

what do you mean
last game i battled with zaicon for days because I was so lynch-happy.

[Nachomamma8]

So is that mean you won't ever talk unless someone talks to you directly?

Notice how kuror0 has more than one post. This means that your attack is a strawman and patently false.

This totally isn't you buttering up Varsoon. Nope, not in the slightest.

That's me finding a possible scumteam and prodding for feedback on it. What makes you think I was buddying up to Varsoon, and why would I need to do that as scum?

I'm doing this because this game needs to go somewhere, and you're being scummier than Yoshi has ever been. It does bust my balls that my two previous scumreads are currently voting to lynch you, but, keep in mind, this play is also to see how they react to this.

I don't think kuror0 is scum at this point in time, please unvote. His reaction to getting some votes is town as fuck, RY is still scum, and Guy in Freezer might be a great choice for the scum I missed before.

[Nachomamma8]

^FYI, I liked your old Avatar more. Dark souls is a good game, but that avatar sucks.

Thanks! Send me a PM about stuff not related to the game, though. Otherwise, it is distracting fluff.

no outside communication

[Nachomamma8]

Eep, didn't realize you can't even discuss -avatars- via PM.
Sorry, man. Brohous before Touhous.

Anyway, can we focus on the game?

yeah no not when you met someone if a game.
if it's your friend or whatever it's fine, but not when you just met someone

[Nachomamma8]

catching up now, hopefully won't take long

[Nachomamma8]

but it also seems like he's defending Varsoon and even coaching him. ("you're reacting too strongly. calm.")

I don't see where I defended him in #130, but I did coach him since it's my job and all.

Before that though. Nacho, how is kuror0's reactions to being voted Town?

I'm reading them as town because he shuts down fuzzy's case on him fairly confidently, he's confident in saying that he's been contributing as much as he's needed to, and calls out fuzzy for hypocrisy. This is consistent in his thought process to his later vote on Fuzzy.

UNVOTE: Yoshi

Reaction test.

I liked this reaction test! Creative, and well-implemented. Also giving me a bit of a townread based on your playstyle so far. You shut down the gambit before it could have any anti-town effects (other newbies sheeping you and hammering Yoshi too quickly), so it doesn't really offer any benefit to Remembrance-scum (except to look town, but nothing in the gambit itself looked town enough that it would be worth the heat you could draw for flip-flopping).

I'm bad at Day 1. I don't have a flip to go after on Day 1. X_x

You weren't bad at Bortrax's Day 1.

@Rem: there is something called derp-hammer. And most of them comes from town.

Not all quickhammers come from town.

Guess which replacement didn't?

GuyInFreezer!

inb4 RandomYoshi is sheeping again and is therefore scum.

predicting an attack and attacking it before it happens, more like

Unvote, Vote: Nobody Special

first of all holy shit you people are spam posting
second of all GIF can be town for the reaction test that made lazyYoshi town
and POE would dictate Goku the useless joke alt and NS to be scum together
i prefer NS first since he's trying to restart a wagon i grew bored of years ago

[Nachomamma8]

fuzzy if you quickhammer i will slaughter you.
reading up now.

[Nachomamma8]

yeah, the remembrance wagon is horrible
he's horribly erratic, but also horribly transparent

[Nachomamma8]

yeah, the remembrance wagon is horrible
he's horribly erratic, but also horribly transparent

hello NS do you really think this was all I intended on saying?
why did you hammer before I could finish my thoughts?

[Nachomamma8]

Goku, your vote was doing absolutely nothing at the end of the day. Why is that?

[Nachomamma8]

more like...
one.

Vote: Nobody Special

[Nachomamma8]

If he flips town, Yoshi is confirmed for scum.

VOTE: Nobody Special

WHAT IS WITH THESE QUICKHAMMERS
GOD
DAMN
IT
ALL

[Nachomamma8]

i have a fucking paper due in 10 hours
so i'm going to have to go overdrive on this long fucking game and then go overdrive on my paper
argh

[Nachomamma8]

varsoon
if you thought RY was scum
why did you hammer the guy RY put to L-1?
in what realm of logic does that make any semblance of sense?

[Nachomamma8]

be slow tomorrow. don't act quickly.
if you do one fucking thing this game. take. your time. in lylo.

[Nachomamma8]

This would start the same time as my other game.

VOTE: Nobody Special

Clearly has nothing to offer!

sounds fake as shit

Hello everybody, let's have a nice game. I'm one of your SE's, so if you have any question about rules and stuff like that you can ask me and i will try to guide you in the right way.

VOTE: Normal Guy

He is creepy.

You're breaking my heart

subtle AtE

I have only played one newbie game before this one, so I'm about as close to newbie as you can get.

And I'm sorry yoshi, but I have to agree with NS here.

...he says as he continues to vote NS
the apologizing to Yoshi also feels off, could be a buddy tell, could not be a buddy tell

Super eager and ready to get the ball rolling. I like this guy.

And it's a great plan! Discussion is our greatest weapon. In my first newbie game I started getting really frustrated because the game wasn't active enough for me. It makes it nearly impossible to move forward when it's day 3 and most of the people in the game aren't even saying anything.

Let's not forget that people do have real lives, however. So it should be something within reason. I'm thinking like 4-5 posts per day?

sucking up hard to varsoon

Well, kuror0 makes valid points. Forcing people to talk could create unnecessary fluff for scum to hide behind.

@SE's/IC (can't remember who..I'm on my phone right now and looking back would be a hassle): has anything like this been done before, that you've seen? I can see both the pros and cons, but it would be good if I could look at a past game where the town did this.

holding back to much, no vote down still

Nobody Special seems like he is either uninterested or frustrated. That could be due to scum alignment but there is nothing that makes me dislike him to this point.

Nacho is really difficult to read. I don't think he's really said much (I'm posting on my phone, so I'm doing what I can from memory, as going back and forth for every player isn't worth the time nor the effort right now)

hate when people are just like "Nacho is hard to read", but I grin and bear it most of the time
NS bit is odd because he is null, could be scum, but there's nothing wrong with him
scum are afraid to take positions on buddies a lot of the time, NS strong partner tell

Whoa. I missed the No lynch vote because it came between my catching up posts.

Yeah, you should not do that. No lynching just gives scum a free kill and we gain no information from the day.

cool this gives us nothing

UNVOTE: NS

I'm not quite sold on fuzzy being scum here. To me it reads more like he's just got the wrong idea about no lynch. If this was some crucial part of the game, like tied lynches or something, and he refused to pick a side, then that would be a much bigger concern for me. I could be biased because I'm also struggling to form a solid scum read on anyone, but I can at least see why fuzzy would argue the position.

@fuzzy, 1) why did you claim? Nobody stated intent to hammer, nor did anyone ask for a claim. If there is anything about the whole exchange that makes me not like you, it's that. It felt rushed.

2) You really should just let it go. No lynch obviously isn't going to happen today, so you're just wasting your time with it.

no idea why he unvoted
seems like an awkward hop of a wagon followed with posturing and getting ready to jump on the next one
not scum with fuzzy

Scum won't Lynch itself
Scum is playing it safe
Scum is making us doubt each other
Scum is building cases for future mislynches

I disagree with most of these on principal.

Scum will actually lynch itself, and in some situations, it's best if scum lynches itself.
Scum will sometimes play it safe, but it's also common for scum to be very vocal and pro-town. Those are, infact, the worst kind of scum, because they're hard to read and harder to lynch.
Scum doesn't always play deceptive games. Newb-scum specifically has a tendency to lie low so hard that they forget to scumhunt. Town tends to feel the most deceptive because they believe in what they say, and sometimes they say ridiculous things, and make lapses in judgement. Most town-lynches are actually lead by town, funny enough. Scum are the ones cheering on the sidelines.

nitpicky as fuck, useless as fuck
IIoA

So wait, you don't like that he put you at L-1, so you put him at L-1?

this has essentially been Goku's whole game outside of that
potshot, potshot, potshot
what are your reads?

[Nachomamma8]

nacho how are you so sure that it'll be lylo next day?

generally fucktarded hammers don't hit scum
maybe it did
i certainly was happy with the lynchee although it was way too fucking early, so probably not

[Nachomamma8]

i don't know that's what i'm figuring out now

[Nachomamma8]

Figured the game needed a little boost of action.

Side note-I love that avatar, Yoshi.

haven't had time to do proper meta research, but I glanced a little bit and fuzzier is not so loose as scum. he also doesn't fall back on no lynch as much as scum, so both are signs of him being town this game. his attack on varsoon is something completely out of left field from a scum player and liable to self-destruct hard as shit, so that's a good sign triumvirate right out of the gate.

Anyone else who thinks I'm scum because I don't believe in stats-LOL.
That's truly laughable.

Irrational, doesn't make sense, makes even less sense from a scum position.
(SEE: What I was saying about Remembrance yesterday)

Some things are better kept to yourself, kuror0.

Say I was to explain everything right now. That'd surely cause trouble for us.

I will, however, say this. I'm becoming more and more set on Varsoon being scum, again. His posts have been reading off to me for a while.
Would you like a claim?

bolded is stupid town paranoid thought process
you can say whatever the fuck you want, too much information isn't generally a bad thing unless it's not actually information

don't need too much more, probably town

[Nachomamma8]

varsoon are you honestly just logging the fuck out after a quickhammer?
don't let him get off the hook for that so easily.

[Nachomamma8]

It's a scumbluff. By saying that "you're gonna call me out on doing this again," one is trying to justify his continuous scummy action with "I don't give a hoot about you think of me. I am what I am."

I liked this.

Rem, you're next.

@RY: That's not helping at all. If you're a town, give us your final reads, etc.

This is also good, concern for consolidating things is a double plus good thing.

Looks better.

@Rem: now THIS is how you reaction test.

P-Edit: ikr?

+

UNVOTE:

I'm confident calling RY town now. The reaction from him was genuine.

transparent thought process, I can buy this easily

I would like to ask Rem what made him get a townread on me all of the sudden.

a little bit of quality paranoia

i also like the activity monitoring, the resentment of me for being a non-presence, the flip-flopping on Rem
also town

[Nachomamma8]

R.I.P.

---

RandomYoshi

---

Vanilla Townie

---

Mislynched Day 1 for stupid reasons.

---

May he win the game for the Town from his grave.

RY can be town.
For this, and consistent follow-up. He handled my pressure decently, and all I can get from his posts afterwards is town, town, town.

[Nachomamma8]

I find Varsoon very suspect for not finding me scummy, but rather pointing out that scum could use me for an easy target. Could be a scumslip.

unvote

Vote: Varsoon

See what I said about reads?
Scum's just trying to turn town on itself.
If you scum make town lynch me, it will only turn out poorly, because then town will see how obvious it was that they were being manipulated.

Sorry about saying that you'd be an easy target. I'm just trying to pre-empt any scum moves.

this is a bit strange, actually
it's an appeal to emotion, combines with other nasty things

From an outsider's standpoint, I could see how I seem scummy. I was trying to get out RVS with some suggestions. Guess it worked, if not for the best.

eh
too worried about defense

Aaah. Again, sorry, this is my first game.

too apologetic

What's got you set on NS as scum?

I don't think NS is scum.

Just an asshole, lol.

almost definitely not scum w/NS

Except, regardless of explaination, it doesn't change the fact you continued to do those actions.

Regardless, I think that Fuzzy's NoLynch is a definite indicator that he's scum, but I'll hold my vote until he's L minus 1 or 2 and let him make a case.

no reason to wait if town

fuzzybutternut - Scum. Especially evident in the No Lynch and breakdown of rhetoric when at L-1.
Approximately Normal Guy - Null. Helpful, if a bit of an ass. Posts in shotgun blasts.
GuyInFreezer - Null. Not enough posts to discern. Seems pro-town, but could be misleading scum.
Remembrance - Null. Same read as GuyInFreezer.
RandomYoshi - Scum. Since both he and Fuzzy voted for Kuror0, I'm feeling more confident on this read. He's too defensive, sheepy, and indecisive.
kuror0 - Null. Really pro-town, but could always be misleading scum. He lurks too hard, but we've been over this. Did an ISO and leaning town on him.
Nobody Special - Null. Leaning town. Posts are short, but pretty pro-town, does some things that could be real scum-bluffing, but that's likely me over-thinking it.
Nachomamma8 -Null. Leaning town. I want to outright say he's town, but he's like the Vegeta of this game--such an anti-hero.

too many nulls

I'm not so quick to write Yoshi off, but it feels like he's lynch-proof now.

:/

Just so everyone gets the memo.

Nobody Special is at L-2. If anyone votes for him before he makes his case, you will immediately be scum-suspect. NS, please make a case for yourself.

:/

UNVOTE: Random Yoshi
VOTE: Remembrance

I'm lynching your play-style.

policy lynch is strange but make sense coming from someone who is getting frustrated with the day

I'd rather the hammer not be dropped so instantly.

and I don't understand why he hammered so instantly

[Nachomamma8]

But if Varsoon is town, he generally has natural thought processes going for him, he has sticking his neck out a lot, he has natural reads, he has natural interactions with me, he has a hard-to-fake tone that draws people to calling him town as fuck. However, with the quickhammer he falls down pretty fucking far in the good books, and during the next day he needs to be pinned down and forced to give a full reads list with no nulls and explain why the fuck he quickhammered. What I hate most about this whole situation is how he was willing to be active and engage UNTIL I called him out for the bullshit quickhammer.

[Nachomamma8]

1) Varsoon
2) fuzzybutternut Eepzy
3) Goku Approximately Normal Guy*
4) GuyInFreezer Nabber*
6) RandomYoshi
8) Nobody Special* (SE)
9) Nachomamma8 (IC)

SO
reads are according to order(T->S)

RY --> fuzzy --> GuyInFreezer ---> (gap) ---> Varsoon --> (gap) ---> Goku.

If NS flips scum, Goku lynch won't be that much of a question. But if he flips town, I would definitely treat Varsoon with caution.
And if NS flips town.
Take.
Your.
Time.

[Nachomamma8]

freezer is V/LA.

[Nachomamma8]

i think that i see Varsoon.

[Nachomamma8]

Also, if Nobody Special flips Town, here's what we'll do during LyLo: have pseudo-votes. We should basically

FoS: <player>

and

UnFoS: <player>

to deprave Scum's ability to quickhammer if a single vote is placed incorrectly.

Deal?

Just don't vote. Let discussion play out because a lot of it will be needed.