Newbie 1339 - Game Over! (Scum Win)

[Approximately Normal Guy]

This would start the same time as my other game.

VOTE: Nobody Special

Clearly has nothing to offer!

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Hello everybody, let's have a nice game. I'm one of your SE's, so if you have any question about rules and stuff like that you can ask me and i will try to guide you in the right way.

VOTE: Normal Guy

He is creepy.

You're breaking my heart

[Approximately Normal Guy]

I have only played one newbie game before this one, so I'm about as close to newbie as you can get.

And I'm sorry yoshi, but I have to agree with NS here.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

What specifically were you replying to? His reason for his RV or his RV in and of itself?

Sorry, it was the "he is creepy" part. I should have deleted the rest of the quote.

And @Varsoon, it's highly unlikely that scum would fake a cop claim unless it was end game, imo. It would just be pretty damn ballsy. So not much to worry about there.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

In fact, if you were town, wouldn't you want to discuss things that might possibly lead to our success?

Yes, of course I'd want to discuss things that are beneficial for us Townies to win. I just wanted you to highlight how it could be contributing to our success as Town. In fact, all I wanted to know was your mindset behind the topics you brought up. Now that you have explained satisfactorily how it can help our success as Town, my question has been thoroughly answered.

Fairnuff, but I won't change my vote until we get some more discussion rolling.
I feel like I might be too chatty, but I think it's really important that we all chat as much as possible.
The best way we can route out the scum is to talk a lot. This way, the people who aren't as active are under scrutiny and scum is forced to be more social, leading to a higher chance of slipping up. We should hold a quota of so many posts per real-time day. Falling under the quota doesn't benefit town at all, and so those are people we can lynch if we don't agree on a definitive mafia target.

Does this sound like a good plan, everyone?

Super eager and ready to get the ball rolling. I like this guy.

And it's a great plan! Discussion is our greatest weapon. In my first newbie game I started getting really frustrated because the game wasn't active enough for me. It makes it nearly impossible to move forward when it's day 3 and most of the people in the game aren't even saying anything.

Let's not forget that people do have real lives, however. So it should be something within reason. I'm thinking like 4-5 posts per day?

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Yes, Varsoon is very much town.

I think attaching an arbitrary number to a player and saying YOU MUST POST THESE MANY TIMES PER DAY OR... is folly. Some people post more substance in one or two posts a day than some other people who post forty times a day.

An arbitrary number is just that, arbitrary.

If you feel someone is lurking (or active lurking), vote them.

If they don't improve their quality of posting, lynch them.

It's very simple.

I see where you're coming from. But I also agree it's good to have an informal agreement to keep a healthy level of content. There was a guy who lurked a ton in my first game, and when people called him on it, he'd just say something like "well if I'm lurking there's probably a reason for it" and it made it hard to lynch him. I'd personally feel better having a verbal agreement from people to hold them accountable in the future.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

@Varsoon, have you played mafia on any other sites before mafiascum?

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Well, kuror0 makes valid points. Forcing people to talk could create unnecessary fluff for scum to hide behind.

@SE's/IC (can't remember who..I'm on my phone right now and looking back would be a hassle): has anything like this been done before, that you've seen? I can see both the pros and cons, but it would be good if I could look at a past game where the town did this.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

@ANG- Never think that scum WON'T do something. Ever. Scum are actually more inclined to claim a PR, and I can point you to games where that HAS happened. IF we do have a cop, do not claim if you get an innocent, and if you get a guilty, subtly claim. I made this mistake in a game of mine, and was lynched (town still won though). Keep in mind, this was Day 2. Newb scum are less inclined to do it, but it's still there as an option. Never underestimate scum.

I mean, I can see why scum would want to claim a pr if they could get away with it. I just thought in this setup it would be a big risk, and a 1-for-1 in a 9 player game seems to be better for town.

My reads so far:

Varsoon I think is likely town. The subject matter of his posts isn't always helpful to town, but his attitude and mindset just seem town to me. He's kind of dominated the conversation, and I struggle to imagine a guy who was scum in his first game ever being that confident.

Yoshi is null at this point. I liked him out of the gate, but his read on varsoon seemed to change suddenly when fuzzy came in and voted him. He forgot me in his first post, then suddenly remembered I was his biggest scumread for supporting an idea he also supported. That just doesn't seem natural.

Nobody Special seems like he is either uninterested or frustrated. That could be due to scum alignment but there is nothing that makes me dislike him to this point.

Fuzzy is a slight town read for me. I like how he came in and got the game moving somewhat. He seems like he is trying to help us all out, but at the same time it's a newbie game so I'm paranoid of more experienced players.

Nacho is really difficult to read. I don't think he's really said much (I'm posting on my phone, so I'm doing what I can from memory, as going back and forth for every player isn't worth the time nor the effort right now)

Nothing stands out about anybody else so far. I might make a follow-up post after this one once I read back over some more

[Approximately Normal Guy]

What do you mean a 1-for-1?

Scum will do

anything

to stay alive. If you want proof, go read my Wiki and find the game I was cop in. Another player on here, UN, was scum. I investigated him, got a guilty result, and claimed. He counter-claimed with Doctor.

I see what you mean about Yoshi, though. It's more of a newb-tell right now, though.

As far as the "experienced player" thing goes, I've only played 4 games of mafia in my entire life. I suck at this game, to be honest.
It's good to have suspicion of more experienced players though, because they can be very manipulative, especially to someone who isn't experienced at all. Believe me, I just lost a game because scum practically controlled me.

By a 1-for-1 I meant if some lied about a cop claim and we lynched based on that, it would become obvious who was lying. So, in your example, if you lynch the doctor claim and he flips town, then you lynch the cop claim. If the scum gets caught it's basically trading one town for one scum.

@yoshi, I never said you were scummy for not wanting the post quota, and neither is kuror0 nor anyone else. It seemed like a good idea when varsoon suggested it, then some people explained why it's not, and so I don't like it as much now. I said your vote was unnatural because you said you were voting me for supporting an idea that you yourself referred to as the best idea ever. What makes it ok for you, but makes me scum?

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Oh I misread your post, yoshi. I thought the bottom part was directed at me. That makes 300% more sense now.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Sorry I've been gone for a few days. It's midterms week so I've been really busy, as well as playing other mafia games.

I'm catching up now.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

In post 119, Nabber wrote:
I don't think it's exactly a scrum move, but I'm wondering why Normal Guy only included five reads in his analysis a little bit up the page.

Yeah, that is a bit weird, but I think I am the only person who included himself in his reads.
Could have been that he left out people who he forgot were in game/people too inactive?
Either way, it was posted at like 1.30 AM and we've established not all of us are exactly night hawks.

Still, I'd like ANG to explain why.

I was posting on my phone, it was super late, and opening multiple tabs/going back and forth loading pages to read everybody was just too much hassle at the time. I mentioned in the post in question.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

You're mistaken. This would be a 2-for-1 in favor of scum. If they lie about a cop claim, and town lynches based off that, they get a day kill and a night kill, which could put town in a very sticky situation, mainly because the night kill is most likely going to be someone who is actually helping the game.

Well, I disagree here. The night kill is going to come no matter what, assuming it doesn't get blocked or saved. So the point I was making was that scum trades one of themselves to get the town power killed, hence 1 scum for 1 townie.

wait i'm almost certain that 87 is a huge buddying post atm

How's it buddying? I don't see it.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

A list!

Town
nacho
fuzzybutternut
Normal Guy
Varsoon (weak)

Null
kuror0
Nabber
kitiekatt

Scum
Random Yoshi

Could you elaborate on your town reads of nacho and fuzzy?

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Whoa. I missed the No lynch vote because it came between my catching up posts.

Yeah, you should not do that. No lynching just gives scum a free kill and we gain no information from the day.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Yes, but we gain that information regardless. Trust me, no lynch is only ever a good move in like, a couple really specific end game scenarios.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Yes, but we gain that information regardless. Trust me, no lynch is only ever a good move in like, a couple really specific end game scenarios.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Someone claimed a PR, they were lynched, they flipped said PR. Town is it's own worst enemy sometimes.

And then you look at their lynch and glean information from it.

If you no lynch d1, you don't have anything to hold people accountable for.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

But a simple night kill doesn't have any votes tied to it. You just WIFOM yourself into the ground trying to figure anything out from it.

I understand where you are coming from, you're just wrong here.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

UNVOTE: NS

I'm not quite sold on fuzzy being scum here. To me it reads more like he's just got the wrong idea about no lynch. If this was some crucial part of the game, like tied lynches or something, and he refused to pick a side, then that would be a much bigger concern for me. I could be biased because I'm also struggling to form a solid scum read on anyone, but I can at least see why fuzzy would argue the position.

@fuzzy, 1) why did you claim? Nobody stated intent to hammer, nor did anyone ask for a claim. If there is anything about the whole exchange that makes me not like you, it's that. It felt rushed.

2) You really should just let it go. No lynch obviously isn't going to happen today, so you're just wasting your time with it.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

I was initially nervous of you because...
You replaced an inactive player while the only scumread I had was on Yoshi,
and
You immediately built a case against the highest posting user right out of the gate.

Why do these two things make you nervous?

At this point, I kind of want to vote for you, because even if you're town, then I'll know that people who pushed cases against you are more likely to be scum. If you're scum, then we get rid of half of mafia on day 1.

This doesn't sound like town logic to me. You say you want to vote him because if he flips town the people who voted him are probably scum. What would that say for you, then?

[Approximately Normal Guy]

In post 149, RandomYoshi wrote:wait i'm almost certain that 87 is a huge buddying post atm


How's it buddying? I don't see it.

Yoshi you never responded to this.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Well, if you only have a scum read on one single person and another person steps in and says something you find scummy, replacing a completely inactive player and assuming his role, then you've got your second scum read, don't you?

1+1=2, yes.

It's not town logic to say that voting scum is a good idea?

I know it can be hard to follow more advanced play, but here's a pretty simple breakdown of what happens if we vote for him and he's VT (like he claims):
He's lynched and revealed as VT.

Anyone who built a case against him without sufficient evidence is now under suspicion

.
Ergo, we have better leads to follow on who is scum.
ANG, I'm going to chalk this slip up to you not following my logic, but it seems like a pretty fucked up thing to imply someone else is scummy when their suggestion is pro-town.
What's the basis?

First of all, you can cut the attitude. I didn't say nor did I imply that voting scum isn't a good idea.

The bold is true

regardless

of what he flips.

You seemed to be not that concerned about the possibility of a mislynch, and more focused on the fact that people on the mislynch would look scummy for it. Whether the people on the lynch look scummy should not depend on the flip. You can look at their votes and the cases they've built now and decide if you think their reasoning is valid.

In a nutshell, my point was that you had no issues supporting the lynch, but your attitude was that if he flipped town then the people voted him would look scummy. You would be one of those people, and not only that, but you would have been hopping on the end of the wagon.

Nutshell-inside-a-nutshell: lynching scum is pro-town, "lynch now, ask questions later" is not.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Okay, bro, chill your jets.
You're taking pretty obtuse methods to turn the phrase on me.
Look it over a few times and stop being so quick to change the issue at hand.

I'm not turning the phrase. Your post didn't look like it came from a town mindset, and when I questioned it you got snippy.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Didn't really find it scummy, but let me try to make it clear to you again.

In a nutshell, my point was that you had no issues supporting the lynch, but your attitude was that if he flipped town then the people voted him would look scummy. You would be one of those people, and not only that, but you would have been hopping on the end of the wagon.

I never supported the lynch with a vote.
I also gave pretty sound reasons why I've always thought Fuzzy was scum and why I still have my suspicions of him.
My attitude was, and still is, that if anyone flips town that the people who started wagons on them are the ones I'd be most suspicious of.
If I do ever participate in a mislynch, feel free to suspect me. Until then, please don't make such big deals out of such small things. It makes you look scummy, especially when a wagon is getting started on someone else who many be scum, as it seems like a defense of an ally.

You're making my point for me here.

You never voted him. The heat built up on him. After Nacho unvoted, you said you'd want to vote him, and that the people who started the wagon would look suspicious if he flipped town.

Are you beginning to see where I'm coming from?

[Approximately Normal Guy]

I constantly poke and prod people to get them to flesh out their thought processes. It's how I mainly hunt scum. When something doesn't quite line up with my thinking, I get that person to elaborate on it, and it usually becomes apparently whether their thought process was natural or not. On the other site where I play, I've caught scum before, not for making bad arguments, but for not giving reasoning that properly supports the argument.

Your initial statement stood out as odd to me, so I called attention to it. You reaction was town, just annoying.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

@ANG right now, you think Varsoon is town, or scum?

I feel pretty good about him being town.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

I understand. A lot of concepts in mafia aren't intuitive

Can someone sum up the case against yoshi? I'm phone posting for tonight and digging it up would be a chore. I know in my initial reads I was null-scum on him but I don't know what's been presented since then.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

Umm...

My explanations include who I believe drew what roles, and therefore will not post them, as I actually want to win this game. I'm a scummy person, but I do actually hold value to this game.
I'll claim, if I must, though I truly don't have a spectacular role in this game.
VT. That's it. Lynch me if you want, but you reap what you sow.

[Approximately Normal Guy]

How could you claim and then forget it happened?