Newbie 1339 - Game Over! (Scum Win)

[Varsoon]

Hey, sorry about confirming so late.

I'm a true noob, so it is what it is.

I don't have to submit a vote so soon, do I? It seems pretty scummy to come out the gate and be all 'Okay, this guy, he's dying'.
Can't we do this by lot, lol?

[Varsoon]

I don't have to submit a vote so soon, do I? It seems pretty scummy to come out the gate and be all 'Okay, this guy, he's dying'.
Can't we do this by lot, lol?

Finding scum is our first priority. Never lose sight of that as town, and you'll be alright.

@Nacho Where you got there where no newbies this game? Your source seems unreliable now.

none of you are true newbies
some are still tenderfooted
but we only have one who is truly new.

Well, yeah, if we don't lynch people then the scum gets to just kill us off without any resistance. I suppose pushing everyone around and riling them up is a good way to have accusations flung all around/make the scum step out of line, but it seems to very violent and forced at first. I guess what's important your first impression of the other players? Instinct!

Regardless, I'll hold my vote for now. I wanna see what all you guys have to say before I make my decision.

Am I the only true newbie? Oh man.

[Varsoon]

Also, as far as the roles go, I realize that there's -definitely- a mafia cop and there /might/ be a Town cop. Now I feel bad for anyone if they're town cop, lol.

[Varsoon]

How is discussing the likehood of a Town Cop existing in the setup relevant to Town's success?

Well, because there's 100% chance for Mafia to have a cop, we know that if anyone outright says they're a cop or that they investigated anyone, etc, they're either lying or they're likely not town. However, there's a pretty high chance that town has a cop, so I was saying I feel bad for that guy. He basically can't say -anything- about being a cop without falling under scrutiny.


Can we have conversations about things not directly related to the game? Like, I'm at my desk job right now, so that's why I'm replying so often. It'd be cool to hold some conversations that would let us know each other a bit more. If that's something generally off limits, that's k.

[Varsoon]

What specifically were you replying to? His reason for his RV or his RV in and of itself?

Sorry, it was the "he is creepy" part. I should have deleted the rest of the quote.

And @Varsoon, it's highly unlikely that scum would fake a cop claim unless it was end game, imo. It would just be pretty damn ballsy. So not much to worry about there.

Well, dude, that's the thing. What if, on second day or something, he exposed the other guy as scum and got his partner killed? Everyone would think he was actually the cop and then he'd have free reign to investigate town while seeming like a good guy.

[Varsoon]

I mean, clearly, that'd be a pretty outlandish strategy, and both of the mafia would have to agree upon it. Also, if that does happen, IE: a cop reveals scum, I figure we might lynch him now that I mentioned that approach. It'd be too obvious.

[Varsoon]

So, like I said, I feel kinda bad for town cop, if there is one.

[Varsoon]

Vote:RandomYoshi

Your user title is 'Mafia Scum'. I think I'm gifted with the Sight.

welp varsoon is town
and he should probably put a vote down

Yeah? I guess so--at the very least, it'll get the game rolling a bit more.

[Varsoon]

How is discussing the likehood of a Town Cop existing in the setup relevant to Town's success?

Furthering my vote from before, I'm a little suspicious of the way you say "relevant to Town's success". I know not all of us have written in, so it's probably hasty to make this judgment, but it seems like a subconscious slip to refer to Town as if you're not a part of it. In fact, if you were town, wouldn't you want to discuss things that might possibly lead to our success?

[Varsoon]

In fact, if you were town, wouldn't you want to discuss things that might possibly lead to our success?

Yes, of course I'd want to discuss things that are beneficial for us Townies to win. I just wanted you to highlight how it could be contributing to our success as Town. In fact, all I wanted to know was your mindset behind the topics you brought up. Now that you have explained satisfactorily how it can help our success as Town, my question has been thoroughly answered.

Fairnuff, but I won't change my vote until we get some more discussion rolling.
I feel like I might be too chatty, but I think it's really important that we all chat as much as possible.
The best way we can route out the scum is to talk a lot. This way, the people who aren't as active are under scrutiny and scum is forced to be more social, leading to a higher chance of slipping up. We should hold a quota of so many posts per real-time day. Falling under the quota doesn't benefit town at all, and so those are people we can lynch if we don't agree on a definitive mafia target.

Does this sound like a good plan, everyone?

[Varsoon]

Super eager and ready to get the ball rolling. I like this guy.

And it's a great plan! Discussion is our greatest weapon. In my first newbie game I started getting really frustrated because the game wasn't active enough for me. It makes it nearly impossible to move forward when it's day 3 and most of the people in the game aren't even saying anything.

Let's not forget that people do have real lives, however. So it should be something within reason. I'm thinking like 4-5 posts per day?

I think that 5 posts a day is a healthy benchmark. Honestly, it only takes a minute or two to write something or respond to someone else. If you can't take 5 to 10 minutes out of a day to ensure that your fellow townsmen aren't wrongfully lynched, you probably shouldn't be playing the game.

But, yeah, let's talk about the quota for a bit.

Does a 5-post-per day quota work for you? Why or why not?

Keep in mind, this is wholly a construction of our game and wouldn't be enforced in any way. It'd just encourage us to keep the ball rolling and better ensure that we don't lynch the wrong people. The thing Mafia are scared of most is good communication, as they thrive off of miscommunication. If we stay in good touch, it should be a solid way to evaluate every player involved. Those who don't post very often will be under higher scrutiny as they aren't contributing to the well-being of the whole.

[Varsoon]

This is my first post of this real-life day.

I think posting quotas are stupid.

Yeah, I'd like to know, too. I can understand that we all lead lives outside of this game, but why join a game if you can't even contribute a minimum of five posts?

[Varsoon]

I haven't really looked at other games, but I figure it's an effective strategy.
If you guys have any other ideas that can contribute to good communication, let all of us know!
Even if you get lynched or mafia kills you, your contributions will help town out long after you are gone.

[Varsoon]

Yes, Varsoon is very much town.

I think attaching an arbitrary number to a player and saying YOU MUST POST THESE MANY TIMES PER DAY OR... is folly. Some people post more substance in one or two posts a day than some other people who post forty times a day.

An arbitrary number is just that, arbitrary.

If you feel someone is lurking (or active lurking), vote them.

If they don't improve their quality of posting, lynch them.

It's very simple.

I can definitely see the value of quality of quantity. However, working on a system of 'feeling' will only lead to disorganization. A line needs to be drawn in the sand. Of course, I encourage everyone else (and try to, myself) to have substance in every post and to lead towards a better game for everyone. If your playstyle is to lurk, post lengthy, quality missives, and that's it, I'm fine with that. You don't -have- to post to the quota, and weekends and holidays make sense, but the quota does allow for the entire playerbase to be more aware of who is and isn't lurking, and to stay in more active communication with each other. All of these things contribute to a better game for everyone, I feel. Mafia has to actually stay on their feet and town gets to feel involved. I like it.

[Varsoon]

@Varsoon, have you played mafia on any other sites before mafiascum?

Nah, this is my first game ever. I learned about the game about two weeks ago. I honestly thought this one would start earlier, haha.
I just figured I'd get the ball rolling. Placation is laaaame.

[Varsoon]

I do think a posting quote won't really work for long, since the discussion will quickly become more deep and it'll take longer to post.

That said, posting as much as possible is a huge priority, and I can definitely agree with you on that.

That's understandable as well, but even with 'deeper' discussion, simply punctuate your responses between each person you are responding to. If everyone holds up the quota, it isn't difficult for discussion to happen. You don't have to grasp at straws for something to talk about because everyone -is- posting and there's always something to reply to or offer insight into. Again, this is all to route out scum and keep us in healthy communication. I think that, as we progress, the quota won't be difficult to uphold and we'll allow more leeway towards it as well.

If you guys have any good ideas, please put 'em forth. Getting out of RVS seems pretty important, and stagnating discussion is something that only benefits scum.

[Varsoon]

Everybody looks so happy about Varsoon... anyways. I strongly disagree with the whole quota thing. While I too get really frustrated when people just lurk around, you can't forget people have a real life or sometimes there is nothing important to say, the quota may lead to policy lynchs on inactive players wich can be either way town or scum(and based purely on numbers it is most likely to be town). Also to avoid failing under that "inactivity" state, some people may start fluff posting just to look active wich is not helpfull at all. The whole idea can be really counterproductive for town(And yes i just used town instead of us). Also to avoid inactivity you can vote for people to pressure them, that's usually the best way to promote someone's participation. Also a policy lynch usually doesn't give so much information to town as a normal lynch wich is another huge set back.

On another topic discussing about PRs is also bad for town imo. If there is a claim at any point there are ways to prove it is a legit one, and we will worry about it when the time comes.

Lastly you may notice my english grammar is terrible(maybe my vocabulary too), so if you can't understand what i am trying to say let me know, so i try to make things clear. (I also receive any advice if it helps to improve my grammar )

Aww, man, sorry to hear that. I don't have much experience with this game, so that does make sense. However!
As far as fluff goes, it should be apparent, which allows us to easily target scum.
There is

always

something important to say.
If we prioritize lynching players who seem more scum over policy lynching inactive players, we have a higher chance to find scum. Why?
If the scum are active, there's a higher chance for them to slip up. This is like being questioned at a police office. They keep you there for awhile to make sure you don't say something contradictory or indicting.
If the scum are inactive, then they are in the pool to be voted for out of inactive players.
This encourages town to be active, to not post fluff, and to be true to themselves. The scum will become apparent.

I like the idea of using votes for pressure, but if we all start becoming voting bullies it'll lead to fights between townies and only foster unhealthy communication.

As for talking about PR's, I do agree. The only reason I mentioned it was to call it to everyone's attention for future notice and to get some discussion started.

[Varsoon]

(I for one have a lot of homework tonight, so please forgive me if I'm absent at times.)

That's totes understandable. I don't think we should enforce a quota during weekends (friday-sunday) and holidays, as most people are super busy in those times. If you do have a busy day, popping in to let us know why is always a better idea than silence.

[Varsoon]

As far as fluff goes, it should be apparent, which allows us to easily target scum.

That's the problem by forcing people to post X times during the day you will make towns to post fluff. So it won't direct us to scum but to anyone.

There is

always

something important to say.

Sometimes there isn't, and sometimes personally i like to wait.

If we prioritize lynching players who seem more scum over policy lynching inactive players, we have a higher chance to find scum. Why?

As i said before policy lynches give away much less information than normal lynches, wich is very detrimental for town. Also if we focus on reasons and not on policys we can account people for their actions and that way we can find who is really trying to catch scum and who just want to lynch anyone wich is a scum trait.

My coments on red and i will leave it there cause i have to go. Also i am sure someone can link something that explains why policy lynchs are bad for town.

Well, clearly. I'm saying that we don't lynch based off of policy, but off of a communal agreement.
No one's forced to do anything. Simply encouraged.
As for your third point, If we, as town, focus on reasons for actions alone, it will be easy for us to identify scum, who are more likely to build a case based off of policy.
I was hoping to not have to spell this out because scum are always watching, but yeah. The whole point to instilling a policy such as a Post Quota is that it engages the players, encourages them to post, and allows everyone to easily identify scum because scum will either not post OR they'll try to manipulate the policy. Town has no reason to manipulate the policy. They're town. The policy exists to protect them.

Regardless of if we decide to have a quota or not, I think we're at the point where lurking/inactivity is going to be more apparent anyway.

[Varsoon]

My coments on red

Do not do this. Ever.

Really? I thought comments in blue were the ones we should stray from. I could see how using any color would be bad, though.

I used enlarged text, but I figure that's fine.

[Varsoon]

It's been tried here and there, and it generally falls by the wayside after Day One.

With an attitude like that, I can see why.

[Varsoon]

@Everyone:
Comments on the game so far?

@kuror0:
Opinions on Varsoon's play?

I found scumy some of his actions, like discussing about town cop and his quota suggestion, but his level of participation is very high and not something I would see coming from a newbie scum, so for now I would place him as mildly scumy.

How is pointing out that that town cop is in a bad position, should he exist, scummy? Just trying to heighten awareness for the fact there is a mafia cop. This probably won't come up again for a few game-days, so it's really a non-issue.

@Everyone:
Comments on the game so far?

Bland, boring, needs to get started.

Someone do something scummy, so we can get started lynching.

I think we need to get rolling, but as I said before, baseless accusations of eachother is only going to have each of us calling one another scum. We have to work together and stay in good, active communication or else the mafia will take advantage of our aimlessness.
Just outright saying "Get scummy" isn't going to make scum step out of line. The only way we can do that is to stay hyper-active and post a lot. Those who only lurk become more suspicious and the people who post mostly fluff/baseless finger-pointing are more scummy than others.

[Varsoon]

Who do you find most scummy?

I don't blame you for thinking I'm scummy. I guess my noobishness is showing, I thought that encouraging people to chat a lot would be a good way to foster communication for town.


Here's my reads.
Varsoon - From an outsider's standpoint, I could see how I seem scummy. I was trying to get out RVS with some suggestions. Guess it worked, if not for the best. Tbh, the discussion of post-quota and seeing how more experienced players dealt with it let me figure a lot of things out. I'm not going to share all of those things, but here are the more obvious ones.
Fuzzybutternut - I don't blame you for the scumread on me or whatever. I -am- the most active person in this game and I could see how that'd be suspicious. I -do- think it is pretty scummy to tell everyone outright to start making reads on eachother, because it's just going to turn us against ourselves.
Approximately Normal Guy - Seems really town to me, but not incredibly active. Posts don't seem fluffy, and he's not accused anyone of anything.
Nabber - Anoter townread for me. Seems busy with things outside of the game, but hasn't done anything anti-town.
kitiekatt - Nothing to go on. Either lurking or inactive.
RandomYoshi - Keeping my vote on you for a few reasons. If a post quota and policy lynches are such a bad idea, his flagrant support of it does seem a bit suspicious. Seems all-too-eager to scumhunt, and when Fuzzy entered the thread he was pretty quick to turn things about on me. The fact he wants everyone to produce reads factors into my deduction that mafia want town turning on themselves early into the day. Honestly, he's given me the most to work with, but he could just be a really anxious town.
kuror0 - I was pretty iffy about my read, but this guy seems pretty town to me. Genuinely interested in town's wellbeing, and his warnings about post quota make a lot of sense and are delivered in the way that a fellow town would. His employ of rhetoric doesn't betray a scumtell to me.
Nobody Special - Dude's got such a negative attitude. Looks like he'd be an easy target for scum to turn some attention to, so I'd keep an eye out for them pointing fingers at him.
Nachomamma8 - Has been really inactive, too. Don't think he's scum because of that early townread. Still don't know anything about him, though.

[Varsoon]

You have the wrong idea about how this game is played. Reads are good, because it let's everyone know where you stand on the people in the game. It can also be a viable scum hunting tactic. It's pro-

town

not pro-scum. To be completely honest, admitting your scuminess is rather pro-scum imo too, but you're the newest player here, so I won't hound you about that.

Aaah. Again, sorry, this is my first game.
I can see how reads are good, but it just gives scum way too much info to work on.
I guess it does help town know where they all stand, etc, but I just don't like the idea of fighting among ourselves and having to be on the defensive when people produce such early reads.
As far as 'admitting' scumminess, I just said I could see how I'd seem that way, but it seems like that's a losing argument. I can't claim town, because that's something scum are trying to do. I can't claim scum, because who would do that? The only thing I can do is acknowledge that, yes, I could see how my high-post count and suggestions might be scummy, but I hope that my posts speak for themselves and my alignment is obvious to everyone. I get the feeling I'm going to be either an early lynch or murder target because I'm so active and because of my litmus test earlier. Sucks.

[Varsoon]

I find Varsoon very suspect for not finding me scummy, but rather pointing out that scum could use me for an easy target. Could be a scumslip.

unvote

Vote: Varsoon

See what I said about reads?
Scum's just trying to turn town on itself.
If you scum make town lynch me, it will only turn out poorly, because then town will see how obvious it was that they were being manipulated.

Sorry about saying that you'd be an easy target. I'm just trying to pre-empt any scum moves.

[Varsoon]

Newbie games are for Newbies who want to learn how the game is played. I'm probably coming off as an ass right now, but I don't want you to carry your current thoughts throughout the rest of your games on here, because you will DEFINITELY be the first lynch if you keep up your thoughts. Being active isn't bad, but can get annoying when only two people are posting. That gives scum a reason not to post. There should be no claiming as of right now anyway.

Makes sense, man. Don't worry about being ass, criticism is good and I

am

a newbie.

[Varsoon]

What's got you set on NS as scum?

I don't think NS is scum.

[Varsoon]

What's got you set on NS as scum?

I don't think NS is scum.

Just an asshole, lol.

[Varsoon]

iirc, he's like that in all his games.

Yeah, it was just a bit jarring at first. You'd figure that people would be more approachable in a game like this. /shrug.

[Varsoon]

So ANG can pass by with saying that having a post quota is a bad idea just because he's agreeing with someone who

didn't vote you

? But, when I agree that having it is a bad idea, and the one who I am agreeing with votes you, I am suddenly scummy? Can you explain this?

I've been skeptical of him, but I think that's the nature of the game--to be skeptical of everyone.
Honestly, my gut feeling was that you were scum, but I couldn't deduce who else might be. That's why, when the player who was absent was replaced and the new guy decisively stepped forward and began shifting the weight of the game around, I thought 'wow, what if the afk was scum, too? is this guy scum?', but that wouldn't have answered who the -other- scum was. You guys seemed to bounce off of each other really well, but, tbh, you did the same thing with me. Now I'm considering the other players a lot more, which could be either a bad or good thing, but, ah, we'll see.
For now, I'll keep my vote on you, but should someone else betray a scumslip, I'll probably change it.

[Varsoon]

I don't think it's exactly a scrum move, but I'm wondering why Normal Guy only included five reads in his analysis a little bit up the page.

Yeah, that is a bit weird, but I think I am the only person who included himself in his reads.
Could have been that he left out people who he forgot were in game/people too inactive?
Either way, it was posted at like 1.30 AM and we've established not all of us are exactly night hawks.

Still, I'd like ANG to explain why.



Also, aaaah, now I feel a bit bad for persecuting Yoshi. ><
Do people usually ISO other players as early as this?
I guess there aren't many other ways to deduce scum without figuring out who thinks what and evaluating their posts.

I really wish the more inactive players would step back in. I'd like to see what they have to say, since it feels like half of us have been gone for 3 pages.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, the more I look at it, Yoshi seems like an anxious townread to me.

[Varsoon]

I am not an asshole. I am

terse

and

succinct.

Oh, and very blunt.

Could you bluntly explain how you feel about the other players so we can gauge where you are?
I initially felt like having everyone do reads was a bad idea, but it's produced a lot of pro-town information.
You don't have to say if you think people are scum or town--like you said, you don't

have

to do anything.
I'd just like to more assuredly know how to feel about you.

[Varsoon]

@Mod-Can we get a prod/replacement on the inactives please? This game isn't going to go anywhere without them.

Agreeing with this.
I was iffy at first, but you're a cool guy.

[Varsoon]

Damn, Nacho, that's some pretty decisive scum hunting.

I just woke up, but I'll talk about a bit more when I get to work.

[Varsoon]

you said it could be a newb tell, but when you voted for him, it was more likely it was a scum tell
what did he do that made you think that it was NOT a scum tell anymore?

This.
I like that you're able to pin down exactly what it is that you'd like to know. It'd be neat if Fuzzy could get back to you on that, but I think that it was generally the way that I responded that made him realize I'm just kinda new to the game. Either way, I do like that kind of zeal, even if you swapped what I felt was a pretty logical vote in order to pressure Fuzzy.

[Varsoon]

As far as Nacho goes, now that he's put a bit more into the game, I've got a better gauge of where he stands.

He's been making some really solid pro-town suggestions, but that might just be because he's an IC.
I like that he was able to cut through a lot of the fluff and get down to business.
While I agree with his initial vote on Yoshi, I find it understandable, if a bit awkward, that he quickly changed such a logical vote if only to pressure Fuzzy.

Although, it's funny, since he and Fuzzy were locked in such back and forth dialogue, but after asking what he did in post 139, Fuzzy hasn't responded to anything since. Could be chalked up to timing and Fuzzy just being like "screw this", but I think that's pretty important.

My questions right now:
Fuzzy, why did you leave so suddenly instead of vindicating yourself?
Yoshi, why are you so quick to agree with everyone who enters with a strong post? You did this with me, Fuzzy, and, now, Nacho. I would understand if we all made good points, but my post-quota suggestion -was not- a good point.
Nacho, how do you feel about Yoshi now that you've interacted with him and got reads from him?

[Varsoon]

I'd really like if the less active people would actually post and stop lurking. Step forward and actually engage in what's going on and prove to us that you are town.

[Varsoon]

Hey, I'm not weak, I'm just out of shape!

I noticed how anxious Yoshi was awhile back, and it still seems that way to me.

[Varsoon]

I've literally just stopped doing that. Nacho's point was the last one I agreed with, because it was logically good. I think I'm making some good, independent points at the moment; what are your thoughts on those?

You were pretty quick to agree with him, then do what he said. It seems like you're really quick to try to cover your bases and do what people tell you, but you shouldn't have so many bases to cover if you weren't a bit suspicious.

Everything you've been doing is just highly reactionary, even recently.

I haven't been using my voting power as forcibly as I should and that's because my gut reaction to your first posts were that they were scummy. It became more apparent that when the post-quota was a bad idea, your quick support of it seems like more of a buddying move than anything. This is made even more apparent when you quickly latched to every new, decisive entry in this game. My vote (and opinion of you) goes unchanged.

You're either scum or really, really anxious town.

[Varsoon]

Both of those are things that I feel will only hinder Town.

[Varsoon]

Heck, Nabber, I could explain that vote for you.
You've been really inactive, and people could read the posts that you have made as rather insubstantial/buddying/fluff in light of the recent activity we've had.

[Varsoon]

Why did you jump in to answer a question that wasn't even aimed at you?

Bored and no one is posting.
I'd also like to pressure Nabber into being more active, but I'm not going to use my vote to do it, since it's going to remain on you for now.

[Varsoon]

:3 Sorry, I do post a lot. I wish this game had an 'edit post' option, but that would probably cause more problems than it would solve.

It's okay, man, you're more active than a lot of the people here. That situation is completely understandable.
Just look at what's been going on in the game and respond to everyone/put your thoughts down for us.

[Varsoon]

Sorry guys. Didn't mean to just disappear. Forgot that I had first aid training today. I'll post after I'm done with my homework/Skype date.

It's k, just really weird/suspicious timing on your part. Same thing I said to Nabber goes to you. Make sure to read up and respond/put down your thoughts.

[Varsoon]

Just read over all this no-lynch nonsense and I'll agree with the majority here.

Nolynch lets Mafia sit back and kill town without any participation.

What I think is the -real- reason that fuzzy suggested a no-lynch is to see how other people would respond to that suggestion, so that he could get better reads.
That would work if he was a noob like me, but he's been in plenty of games, so it is way more suspicious.

Either way, I think lynching someone, or, at the very least, the discussion of lynching someone, will give us way more info then something as disengaging and non-confrontational as a no-lynch.

[Varsoon]

Ugh, I keep wanting to clear Yoshi of suspicion I have of him, but he keeps buddying with "X is town" and slamming votes against whoever we're against, like he's trying to get a wagon started.

Keeping my vote on him,
Fuzzy is my second choice for scum. His last play is either a bold, but obvious scumtell, or what I described above.

[Varsoon]

What I think is the -real- reason that fuzzy suggested a no-lynch is to see how other people would respond to that suggestion, so that he could get better reads.

Maybe. But if that's what his purpose was, I don't see why he would suggest people look at his meta. That seems more like scum showing that it's an established pattern and thus doesn't actually make him scum, which wouldn't make me even a little bit happy.

You're right, he's being really defensive of that move.

It falls in line with an earlier assessment that I made of him being scummy.

[Varsoon]

yeah, i see this too.
do you think he'd be more cautious of sheeping as scum if he was already called out for it once?

I think he should be, but just because he isn't doesn't make me any less suspicious.
You'd think that, as town, if you were called out for doing something scummy, you'd try to avoid doing that kind of thing, as well.

[Varsoon]

Except, regardless of explaination, it doesn't change the fact you continued to do those actions.

Regardless, I think that Fuzzy's NoLynch is a definite indicator that he's scum, but I'll hold my vote until he's L minus 1 or 2 and let him make a case.

[Varsoon]

Fuzzy, you're so much more composed when you aren't defending yourself.

[Varsoon]

It's a pretty straightforward sentence. I'll use your line of response though,
Go read it again and figure it out.

Why do you log in on hidden mode?

[Varsoon]

Oh, no, it's showing you now. Nevermind that last bit. :3

[Varsoon]

I'll put it as this: My interactions with him, though at first giving me newb town vibe, have shifted, mainly due to his sudden change of heart on me. He stated that he believed I was town, but as soon as another point came up, he was quick to jump onto it.
The same goes with Yoshi.

I shifted on you when you started to get more and more absurdly defensive.
I was initially nervous of you because...
You replaced an inactive player while the only scumread I had was on Yoshi,
and
You immediately built a case against the highest posting user right out of the gate.

But I gave you the benefit of the doubt. You could just be scumhunting and the inactive could have been VT. We had plenty of inactives, and one of them could be the other scum.
But then...
You stopped scumhunting to become super-defensive of yourself.
Your poise and rhetoric fell apart when you were called out.

At this point, I kind of want to vote for you, because even if you're town, then I'll know that people who pushed cases against you are more likely to be scum. If you're scum, then we get rid of half of mafia on day 1.
Even in light of all this, I'm holding that Yoshi is scum. Because, frankly, he's -still- more of a scumtell to me than you.

[Varsoon]

[quote="In post 243

Why do these two things make you nervous?

At this point, I kind of want to vote for you, because even if you're town, then I'll know that people who pushed cases against you are more likely to be scum. If you're scum, then we get rid of half of mafia on day 1.

This doesn't sound like town logic to me. You say you want to vote him because if he flips town the people who voted him are probably scum. What would that say for you, then?

Well, if you only have a scum read on one single person and another person steps in and says something you find scummy, replacing a completely inactive player and assuming his role, then you've got your second scum read, don't you?


It's not town logic to say that voting scum is a good idea?

I know it can be hard to follow more advanced play, but here's a pretty simple breakdown of what happens if we vote for him and he's VT (like he claims):
He's lynched and revealed as VT.
Anyone who built a case against him without sufficient evidence is now under suspicion.
Ergo, we have better leads to follow on who is scum.
ANG, I'm going to chalk this slip up to you not following my logic, but it seems like a pretty fucked up thing to imply someone else is scummy when their suggestion is pro-town.
What's the basis?

Either way, like I said, he's my second choice for scum.
My first choice is, and always has been, Yoshi.

[Varsoon]

Well, if you only have a scum read on one single person and another person steps in and says something you find scummy, replacing a completely inactive player and assuming his role, then you've got your second scum read, don't you?

1+1=2, yes.

It's not town logic to say that voting scum is a good idea?

I know it can be hard to follow more advanced play, but here's a pretty simple breakdown of what happens if we vote for him and he's VT (like he claims):
He's lynched and revealed as VT.

Anyone who built a case against him without sufficient evidence is now under suspicion

.
Ergo, we have better leads to follow on who is scum.
ANG, I'm going to chalk this slip up to you not following my logic, but it seems like a pretty fucked up thing to imply someone else is scummy when their suggestion is pro-town.
What's the basis?

First of all, you can cut the attitude. I didn't say nor did I imply that voting scum isn't a good idea.

The bold is true

regardless

of what he flips.

You seemed to be not that concerned about the possibility of a mislynch, and more focused on the fact that people on the mislynch would look scummy for it. Whether the people on the lynch look scummy should not depend on the flip. You can look at their votes and the cases they've built now and decide if you think their reasoning is valid.

In a nutshell, my point was that you had no issues supporting the lynch, but your attitude was that if he flipped town then the people voted him would look scummy. You would be one of those people, and not only that, but you would have been hopping on the end of the wagon.

Nutshell-inside-a-nutshell: lynching scum is pro-town, "lynch now, ask questions later" is not.

Okay, bro, chill your jets.
You're taking pretty obtuse methods to turn the phrase on me.
Look it over a few times and stop being so quick to change the issue at hand.

[Varsoon]

Didn't really find it scummy, but let me try to make it clear to you again.

In a nutshell, my point was that you had no issues supporting the lynch, but your attitude was that if he flipped town then the people voted him would look scummy. You would be one of those people, and not only that, but you would have been hopping on the end of the wagon.

I never supported the lynch with a vote.
I also gave pretty sound reasons why I've always thought Fuzzy was scum and why I still have my suspicions of him.
My attitude was, and still is, that if anyone flips town that the people who started wagons on them are the ones I'd be most suspicious of.
If I do ever participate in a mislynch, feel free to suspect me. Until then, please don't make such big deals out of such small things. It makes you look scummy, especially when a wagon is getting started on someone else who many be scum, as it seems like a defense of an ally.

[Varsoon]

I constantly poke and prod people to get them to flesh out their thought processes. It's how I mainly hunt scum. When something doesn't quite line up with my thinking, I get that person to elaborate on it, and it usually becomes apparently whether their thought process was natural or not. On the other site where I play, I've caught scum before, not for making bad arguments, but for not giving reasoning that properly supports the argument.

Your initial statement stood out as odd to me, so I called attention to it. You reaction was town, just annoying.

Still pretty new to the game, so bear with me on things like that.

I'll definitely defend any move that I make, though.
As far as not using my vote, I kept it on Yoshi because I still felt he was more scummy than Fuzzy.

[Varsoon]

I understand. A lot of concepts in mafia aren't intuitive

Can someone sum up the case against yoshi? I'm phone posting for tonight and digging it up would be a chore. I know in my initial reads I was null-scum on him but I don't know what's been presented since then.

My case against him is that he
-has used rhetoric that betrayed he wasn't very town and when corrected on it, made explicit with the line 'us townies (Not a huge point)
-was very quick to plead a case for himself within the first few days
-asked people to do something scummy early on
-gave reads immediately when asked to, despite it being so early in the game (anothing point that's fairly null)
-has addressed single other plays if they 'anything scummy you're noticing?', etc.
-just seems far too eager to scum-hunt in general (couples with my above point. This is why I made my initial assesment of 'anxious town' or 'scum')
-falls back on the argument that he was tired when he got called out
-sheeped my post-quota idea
-sheeped fuzzy's assessment of me as scum
-sheeped a few player's assessments of fuzzy as scum
-has been decisively calling people town all game (not a huge point, but the only people who know town for sure are scum)


There might be a few other things, but he just hasn't been very independent all game. He's quick to buddy and sheep and flip his reads on people.

[Varsoon]

Scumteam is Yoshi-kuror0. Kuror0 is lurking hard, keeping his head down, minimal contributions. Yoshi still has the problem of compulsive sheeping. If you would like to be useful, you could take a position on one of those two!

hint, hint.

I'm skeptical about that call on Kuror0, but he definitely has been lurking. His decisions of when to swap his vote around are all, at the least, interesting plays.

You know how I feel about Yoshi.

[Varsoon]

I've seen kuror0 play before. Right now, he's avoided talking about a lot of alignment-related things, tried subtly to weave in some paranoia about you, and made a big deal out of the quota thing but really didn't talk about anything else. This doesn't seem to be town kuror0 so far, but I could be wrong.

Makes sense. Like I said, I find the worst offender to be the timing and reasons behind his voting methods.
He's definitely been lurking, too.
Regardless, I feel more confident about voting for Yoshi. If Yoshi flips scum, it'll be telling to see how Kur0 reacts. I think that's a better play than taking chances on a less-confident read.

[Varsoon]

"He only came out when he was mentioned." You're active lurking, which =/= town.

Pretty much this.

I'll see how you defend yourself if you end up having to make a claim.

[Varsoon]

I'm saying that even though people are putting votes on you, I don't suspect you enough to change my vote from Yoshi to you.
If you end up having to defend yourself and the case that you make for yourself isn't sound, I'll probably change my vote then, but I'm not going to just toss my vote onto you without considering it for awhile.

[Varsoon]

Sorry about being relatively silent this whole weekend.
It was a busy handful of days for me, without much sleep.
I've been checking the thread, though, and I'll put in my two-cents when I get to work and have some time to post.
For now, gotta go to morning classes.

[Varsoon]

Huff, here we go:

That's the thing. You ONLY say something when someone directs something at you.
You're not posting your thoughts, you're only defending yourself.

Nice try. But this is the first time someone talks directly to me.

Also, I haven't post my thoughts? lol. I have voiced my opinion and posted my reasons every time someone take a decision that may have a big impact on the game(you and your no lynch, Varsoon and the quota, etc). None of those were directed to me particularly but i was actively discussing it and posted my thoughts about it. Also as i said in a previous post I've been following my own leads I don't need to sheep someone to scumhunt.

Now, I find hilarious that YOU accuse me of "You're only defending yourself", you got to L-1 because all you were doing was that, and you went from "I've no idea who is scum" to "Oh yeah, now I'm thinking kuro is scum" in 2 posts.

If you really think I am scum then make your case based on facts, if you just jump on anyone someone suggested to try and save your ass, it just makes you look bad.

Yeah, talk when talked to, am I right? You're being really fucking scummy. It's hilarious to watch you backpedal with "I give reasons and only post important posts!", then trip all over yourself to misdirect lynches and point fingers. You've done practically nothing pro-town all game. All you've done is lurk, selectively post, and make town fight itself. You started this game really relaxed and safe, but, lately, you're really antagonistic. It makes reading you a real pain in the ass, because I'm fairly certain that Yoshi is scum, but you keep socking him in the shoulder. I can't decide if this is you trying to subtly get a wagon rolling or if you're trying to get your partner to straighten out or get lynched. Either way, it makes me distrust you.

Hi,

Nobody! *hugs* I'm town this game, no one tell you otherwise. They're lying and scum.

Hi Nacho, please don't be scum, I need to learn the ways of scum hunting.

Kuror! Why are you so scummy this game? Will read game again, but not liking your artificial play.

Heya, Remembrance. This is my first game, but, as you can see, it's off to a rough start with lots of inactives and not very much decisive scumhunting. I'm skeptical of your cheerful, "I am not scum, guys, hohoho" introduction, but it's whatever. I'm not going to put you in the box of any alignment until you're a couple posts deep and I can really get a solid read on you.

Figured the game needed a little boost of action.

^ See this, pro town.

But you have a good excuse and I believe you.

Same question @ everyone else, minus Nacho and Nobody.

I've tried to get the game to be active, and, now that we're over 10 pages in, we can really start scum hunting since we have a pretty solid amount of posts to go off of on each player.

Not so obvious; see here.

Lighten up and post more often.
Maybe you'll thank me for defending you, eventually.

So you never checked the thread before the replacements started posting?

Kur0, it's this shit that makes me think you're more and more scummy than before. You're building a case out of evidence that no one can prove other than you. I mentioned Fuzzy's offline/online status as a red herring to see if scum would latch onto it and use similar logic to get Fuzzy to L-1 again, and it seems to have worked.

We are not lynching someone over where they go or do not go on certain days.

I'm not going to defend Fuzzy more than this, he's not worth it. Maybe he'll be worth more later. Be more town fuzzy, you have the power.

This is how I feel, more or less.

It's too late night here so I'll be posting reads of who I ISO'd so far.

Fuzzy - first of all, his post 137. It looks like a scumbluff to me(psh, I'm not scared of your vote!). many of his actions looks scummy during that NL discussion. Constant "meta me" defence (193,202) didn't look good. With 4 games, meta doesn't help people much. Also, I see the "meta me" defense as llazy defense. Also with the nl vote and saying "is there any scums this game?" Strikes as he wasn't actively scumhunting. (176). Post 278 looks like he is happy that he escaped the pressure that was on him. Leaning scum.

Varsoon: I don't like his "I'm a newb. Understand me" stuffs. It sounds like he's setting up so that he might cover his "slips" with the "I'm a newb" excuse. I didn't like his reaction against NS's reads AT ALL. Also at one point he calls over-eager to scumhunt a scumtell. What? His post 121 looks weird (the part about he being sorry for making a case on RY.) However, his play in general seems pro-town, such as trying to generate more discussions and stuff. So for now, null.

I'll do the rest tomorrow.

@Rem: coaching your scumbuddy fuzzy in post 309?

Welcome to the game, GuyInFreezer!
I still feel like Fuzzy and Yoshi are scum, which -really- puts a foul taste in my mouth now that I am considering Kur0 as scum as well. I agree wholly with your points about Fuzzy, but now that I'm considering Kur0 as scum and re-reading Fuzzy's post, it seems more and more like Fuzzy is just really shitty at defending himself. Regardless, he's been really scummy and he's my second choice for scum right now, tied with Yoshi.

I'm sorry if it feels like I've been playing the noob card a bit much. There is -a lot- to learn about this game. If I make any slips, feel free to call attention to them. I will defend myself to the best of my ability. I think this is something everyone should do, as it'll make scum more transparent.


UNVOTE: RandomYoshi
VOTE: kuror0

I think this puts kuror0 at L-1.

I'm doing this because this game needs to go somewhere, and you're being scummier than Yoshi has ever been. It does bust my balls that my two previous scumreads are currently voting to lynch you, but, keep in mind, this play is also to see how they react to this.

[Varsoon]

I'm doing this because this game needs to go somewhere, and you're being scummier than Yoshi has ever been. It does bust my balls that my two previous scumreads are currently voting to lynch you, but, keep in mind, this play is also to see how they react to this.

I don't think kuror0 is scum at this point in time, please unvote. His reaction to getting some votes is town as fuck, RY is still scum, and Guy in Freezer might be a great choice for the scum I missed before.

I was about to say to put a vote on Yoshi or make a case if you think he's scum, but you already have done those things, and so have I.

Good job Varsoon. You've generated 3 evidence posts by making that post. And clearly indicated your total lack of newbie town self-awareness. If he's not town, I will cry gameplay tears.

Generated 3 evidence posts (so far).
We'll see what he turns up, but it's surprising how hesitant everyone is to lynch in this game. Votes and Lynches are the only power that town has. Mafia's going to try to have us misuse our power, but that's because it scares them.

While it is a little unsettling that the second anyone gets to L-1 or L-2, everyone shifts votes around, I'm going to chalk this up to town hesitation over a mislynch rather than manipulation via scum to keep scum from being lynched.

Back to where I was a few posts ago, but now with a little more learned.
UNVOTE: kuror0
VOTE: RandomYoshi


Also-also, Remembrance, you bring up a point I made earlier--I was skeptical to make reads because of the inactives and I feel that one of them was highly likely scum. You seem a bit quick to call out GuyWithATouhouIcon, but I understand where you're coming from. I'm keeping an eye on both of you, though.

[Varsoon]

^FYI, I liked your old Avatar more. Dark souls is a good game, but that avatar sucks.

Thanks! Send me a PM about stuff not related to the game, though. Otherwise, it is distracting fluff.

[Varsoon]

Eep, didn't realize you can't even discuss -avatars- via PM.
Sorry, man. Brohous before Touhous.

Anyway, can we focus on the game?

[Varsoon]

GuyInFreezer, who do you think is more scum--Yoshi or Fuzzy? I feel like they're both really scummy, but I'm leaning more towards Yoshi.
As for my rationale, my earlier posts speak to why I think both of them deserve a lynch.


Speaking of, here's my current reads:

fuzzybutternut - Scum. Especially evident in the No Lynch and breakdown of rhetoric when at L-1.
Approximately Normal Guy - Null. Helpful, if a bit of an ass. Posts in shotgun blasts.
GuyInFreezer - Null. Not enough posts to discern. Seems pro-town, but could be misleading scum.
Remembrance - Null. Same read as GuyInFreezer.
RandomYoshi - Scum. Since both he and Fuzzy voted for Kuror0, I'm feeling more confident on this read. He's too defensive, sheepy, and indecisive.
kuror0 - Null. Really pro-town, but could always be misleading scum. He lurks too hard, but we've been over this. Did an ISO and leaning town on him.
Nobody Special - Null. Leaning town. Posts are short, but pretty pro-town, does some things that could be real scum-bluffing, but that's likely me over-thinking it.
Nachomamma8 -Null. Leaning town. I want to outright say he's town, but he's like the Vegeta of this game--such an anti-hero.

[Varsoon]

Umm, what? Not even 10 posts ago you said he was being "scummier than Yoshi has ever been."

Yeah, in those recent posts that he made, he was. However, Yoshi has been consistently reading as scum to me and to other people.

I took awhile to breathe, ISO him, and think about it and now I feel that Kur0 is just reacting strongly because he want to move the game in a direction. If he flips scum, I won't be surprised. Like I said, he's actually been very pro-town in a lot of his other posts.

But, honestly? The whole reason I put a vote on him and reacted so strongly was to see what move you and Yoshi would make when I took my vote off of him since both of you want him lynched and I think you're both scum.
It's interesting that you're quick to call attention to that. I've noticed that scum does a similar thing when someone gets killed/mislynched.

[Varsoon]

Are you guys sure approximately normal guy isn't scum? Scumdar is going off crazy from this guy.

I'm null on him because he hasn't done anything really anti or pro town.
He's just kinda lurking, posting fluff, and agreeing with (even bad) ideas (see post 40ish).
I really don't like him because he asked me to explain something and when I did it as simply as I could, he mocked me for explaining it simply. :/
Otherwise, I think it's interesting that he's tried to diffuse a handful of situations. Most notable is the time that Fuzzy voted NoLynch.

Why do you think he's scum?
What makes him more scum than other people lurking just as hard/harder?

[Varsoon]

Rest of the reads:

Nachomamma8: His post 130 I can't set my mind upon. Few points from there I can see scumhunting going on, but it also seems like he's defending Varsoon and even coaching him. ("you're reacting too strongly. calm.") Like his interrogation on Fuzzy on post 132~139. He seems to ask questions that are not fillers but actually contentful questions. Other than what I pointed out, his play doesn't look scummy to me. He haven't worked on ANG and NS yet. Overall, leaning town.

Kuror0: Didn't do much until Post 201. Seems like the pressure on him was building from post 275. Since post 201, he was most entirely on Fuzzy it seems.

I would like to see his reads so far.

For now, null.

Conclusion: RY is the scummiest.

VOTE: RandomYoshi

As far as Nacho goes, I can definitely attest that his advice is solely being given as either a scum trying to act town or town trying to keep their town-reads from being mislynched. Either way, he's an IC, so I expect that sort of stuff from him in a noob game. I think that Nacho may be town, but like I said, good scum is capable of anything.

I really wish Yoshi would contribute something substantial, because I'll feel like shit if we vote to lynch him and he flips town. I'm wavering between him and Fuzzy for scum right now, so I really am waiting for one of them to give me more to work with that'll help me decide one way or the other.

[Varsoon]

I refuse to answer that question.

I am trying to make him actually do something. Like, say, vote. Or maybe be more assertive like he was in every other game where he was town.

Edited for readability.

Makes sense. I'm starting to understand how important voting is, and it seems pretty scum to not use a vote/sit back and never risk town making a lynch too early. I mean, using your vote too much can lead to a situation like the one Yoshi is in, as well.

It's hard to use the subjunctive--ie, wishful thinking--in this game. Saying "I want X to do Y so he seems more town/I can get a better read" always looks like a coaching/buddying effort, and we're pretty much all guilty of it. I was planning on doing it more so that I could prod people who I think are scum into making stupid slips, but it seems like a risky thing to do, considering.

One of my biggest worries isn't even being mislynched. It's knowing that if I play strongly enough or discover scum and hunt them, I might be killed at night. Scum gets to just decide who can't play anymore.

Bah, anyway, can you tell me how you feel about Fuzzy and Yoshi? It seems like most of the rest of us are split between both of them on votes and I'd like to know how you, a newcomer to the game, feels about how they've been playing so far.

[Varsoon]

It seems like ANG is like gone since Friday or something. (Checked his profile) He might get replaced.

Is this typically how noob games/games in general go?
I hate making reads when 1/3 to 1/2 of the players aren't even playing the game. It feels like I'm taking a test but I don't even get to see half of the questions.

[Varsoon]

ANYWAY

Varsoon, can you please explain why you blindly unvoted kuror0 just because Nacho told you so?

@kuror0: Nope. It's always neat to have reasons provided with things as important as a read. And having multiple of them can catch the Scum with almost no effort at all. Trust me, this is how I actually scumhunt.

@Guy: BUSTED.

Rememberance is Town. His 376 is Townish. As Scum, he'd say "guys, he failed it. Let's lynch him." But that was not what he did. He asked an open question.to everyone. That is very Town.

Already did this in post 355.
Please carefully read everything before employing implicating rhetoric.
It'll make you less transparent.

[Varsoon]

Leaning towards Remembrance being scum now, since Yoshi is so quick to ally with him and he's so quick to defend Yoshi. This is mostly based off of how I feel about Yoshi as well as Remembrance's 'test'.
Also, it's really kind of frustrating that the two new players are instantly at each other's throats. It's a safe play since you both have nothing to go on for eachother, so it's sort of like a mini RVS for you, but c'mon.

[Varsoon]

Guilt by association. Be very careful Varsoon. All the newbies do it. Not even joking.

Scum certainly are associates. Regardless, I should suspect everyone and never rule a single player out of being scum.
There just wasn't much eloquence or tension behind your vote on Yoshi,
it seemed like a little prod on the shoulder, a chuckle, and a scooting away.
Like I said, you guys seem way too friendly, especially considering your antagonistic relationship with GuyInFreezer

[Varsoon]

They help us in day 2 by providing information day 1.

Gotta cover your bases in case people think you're scum on day 2, am I right?
It's a good thing that scum knows everyone's roles and their reads are absolutely contrived.

[Varsoon]

How do scum know the players roles?

Scum knows who the other scum is,
Scum also knows who all the townies are.

Sure, they don't know PRs, but that doesn't matter nearly as much as the former information.


Regardless, keeping my eye on you.

[Varsoon]

Ah crap, is this tunneling newbie #2? I need to stop looking like I don't care.

You should care about everything if you're town.
Do you usually post in so many 1-line contentless sentences?

Tunneling sounds like a term scum came up with so they can write of a player who's actually pressuring someone else with investigation.
Don't feel special, I've done this to everyone else I've suspected of being scum.


Can't read sarcasm, so please don't use it. If you're being straightforward, make sure to read the pasta at the start of the game.

[Varsoon]

kuror0, why are you waiting until almost-deadline to post your reads? Don't you realise that doing so is anti-Town, because then no-one can comment on them without hogging their computers?

Why would i want to post a bunch of nulls and reads i am not confident of? You think doing so would be helpful for town?

Kur0, I think the anxiety a lot of players are feeling about your playstyle is that it seems like you're lurking really hard because you don't reply to anything and everything in the thread.
I was initially pretty skeptical of this, but I checked out your other games and you consistently lurk and post potent responses that really speak toward your thoughts and character.
Just keep us updated on how you feel about everything more frequently and a lot of that suspicion would die down.
Of course, it also makes you more likely to slip up if you're scum.

[Varsoon]

Looking like I don't care =/ caring. I've read the thread thrice you know

I've played Legend of Dragoon at least 7 times. I still find things I missed or forgot.

You just gotta be more thorough.

[Varsoon]

You need a strategy guide Varsoon? (gamefaqs.com -> for games) (Mafiascumwiki-> basics of mafia). Google it.

Anyways Varsoon is now auto-town. I might breakdown if he's actually scum. I'm serious. I'm satisfied and glad we could talk Varsoon. But please leave me alone while I do some other stuff and look at things. I'm not interested in you pressuring me right now. Pressure guy in freezer for trying too hard to get everyone's reads so he can manipulate the game while earning major town cred.

I'd rather learn on my own/teach myself. It's more genuine that way.
Too obvious of a play against GuyInFreezer.
He's asking people for reads because he's got no other plays to make right now.
I don't need to put pressure on him, since he's posting pretty telling stuff regardless.
I'll do what I want when I want.
See what I mean about your antagonistic relationship, though?

[Varsoon]

Don't like the fact Varsoon's not on there? Blame the gods for him showing up in this game and making the win con slanted in town's favor. The mod might as well have just posted his role pm.

:3
Flattery don't charge these batteries, Rem.


In other news, do you think I'll look good in a coffin after I'm NK'd?

[Varsoon]

I think Yoshi is scum.
And that we should lynch someone before the end of the day cycle.

[Varsoon]

Yoshi, why did you /in for a new game when you're on V/LA?
Do you think you're going to be lynched soon?

[Varsoon]

Varsoon, with the thread developing like it has, who is the most scummy and why?

Starting to care less about you being scum or not.
No one's lynching you.

Most scummy? I'm still skeptical of the two new guys. Otherwise, everyone who lurks.
And Fuzzy.
So, like, everyone in this game.

[Varsoon]

Kuror0 is even scummier now, because he's clearly not paying attention to what he's been doing.
Nacho is my next scum read, but that's more gut than anything.
You're town, yoshi, because of Paranoia.
Varsoon is pretty much town imo too.
Everyone else is town for the same reason.

Not paying attention? I wouldn't count RVS votes for shit, and this is a weak point.
If Nacho is scum, he's playing really well.
I'm not so quick to write Yoshi off, but it feels like he's lynch-proof now.


UNVOTE: Random Yoshi
VOTE: Remembrance

Shut up.

[Varsoon]

This is an extremely important question:

Are you scum?

No.

My grandpa told me about scum, but I've never actually seen one.

So are you actually going to keep acting like Goku for the whole thread?
Because if so, that's really lame, Puar.


Read the thread, give us reads.

[Varsoon]

Someone became more aggressive in his play style.

Nice redirect.
You're not off my list yet, Fuzzy.

[Varsoon]

My current theory is that the reason that both Fuzzy and Yoshi haven't been lynched yet despite being at L-1:
Out of:
Fuzzy,
Yoshi,
NS,
GuyInFreezer,
Remembrance

Two of these guys are scum.
I know that I'm town.
I figure that Nacho and Kur0 are town.
You need 5 votes for a lynch to go through.
This means we need a 5 out of 8 to lynch (before Goku joined),
Which really means we need 5 out of 6 town to lynch, if we ignore Goku's slot, because right now,
Scum won't Lynch itself
Scum is playing it safe
Scum is making us doubt each other
Scum is building cases for future mislynches

It makes me super skeptical of Yoshi, Fuzzy, Rem, and GuyInFreezer.
NS is probably just town. He's an asshole, but he's town.

There you go. We have a 50% chance of lynching scum, if my reads are right.
Rem's being way too fluffy and making the game harder to follow with his one-line, directionless responses.

[Varsoon]

Not a redirect, just observation. Didn't expect that from you.

Scum's being really shitty and just swapping votes on everyone when wagons don't work out.

I'm super-skeptical of almost everyone who's active right now.
I need to put pressure on people.
Ergo, my vote on Rem. (

this answers your question, Yoshi

)

There's not enough decisive plays. The two new guys (rem and GIF) are being really playful and indecisive about their plays.

[Varsoon]

So are you actually going to keep acting like Goku for the whole thread?

Of course not. I joined the game on a whim, I have 20 some odd pages to read. Don't get your dragonballs in a bunch.

Good. I'm being a hard-ass, I don't mean to ginyu a hard time.
This game is krillin me, though. We need to find scum, soon. We've wasted a lot of this day.
You should goku page 1 and read up to here. Find the scum and, hopefully, we can stuff him in a freeza.

[Varsoon]

Look. We know Varsoon is town. Stop mentioning it. He's done. Auto-towned.

Just let him be town now.

Even if you're scum, I agree with this.
Scum won't buddy with me at all by calling me town.
At this point, everyone has.
And, honestly, it's a stupid play to make.
I'm not noob enough to rule someone out of being scum just because they acknowledge me as town.
Furthermore, no one should ever rule someone out of being scum.
You can think someone's town.
You can even post that someone is town.
But until their Role is flipped, they're just as likely to be scum as everyone else.

[Varsoon]

Okay, first three are different votes. Never been on another wagon? That's a lie. Regardless of RVS, a wagon is a wagon.

The last one, you state suspicion on Yoshi, but never did vote him, which is even scummier. Die.

So RVS is now considered a wagon. Being the first and only vote on someone is now also considered a wagon. Now that the new rules has been clarified let's move to other very interesting information.

First you said i was scummy because i was hoping on wagons, now i am even more scummy because i didn't hop on the other wagon?
It is time for people to slowly notice how hard fuzzy is scum and start voting him. He is not even trying to fake-scumhunt anymore.

Kur0, build me a case against him.
I've thought he was scum for awhile, but I want to hear what you have to say.

[Varsoon]

lol what? When you vote, you are on a wagon. That's just that. When you state someone is scum, but don't vote for them, that's scummy.

I can't vote for 8 players at once.

[Varsoon]

I never called you obv.town. So can we be friends now?

Only if you buy me a ChocoTaco and watch my Let's Play series that I just started.
Oh, if you share Bionicles with me, that'd be cool, too.
Honestly, the best thing you could do for our relationship right now is build your case against fuzzy.
I know what I think about him.
I want to know what you think about him.

[Varsoon]

@Varsoon, that was to Kuror0

I know.

Hey, while we're talking about why we both thing you're scum,
Can you defend some of the points I've made about you in the past?
Just ISO me and find 'em.

[Varsoon]

There's some interesting things in the thread ATM. Will comment on them tomorrow. For now,

UNVOTE: Nobody Special
VOTE: Nacomamma8

Stop not posting.

Except everything that he does post is quite pro-town, or, at the very least, solid insight.

Meta him, though. He's one of the most inactive/lurky ICs, from what I can tell.

[Varsoon]

@V: not caring about RY because he ain't getting lynched? Elaborate.

I've had my vote on him for what feels like a millennia. I've built cases against him. I've tried to pressure him as hard as I can.
Dude's either oblivious, shitty town
or really carefree scum.
With that last wagon breaking down, it's time to pressure other players and shift the flow of the game. This'll also let me see how Yoshi acts when the squeeze is coming off of him.


For the record, I still think he's scum.
But there's more than one scum,
So I'll poke around for the other one.

[Varsoon]

Sure. No problem. Just give me til later tonight, if you don't mind. I'm going out to celebrate my birthday.

Have fun, man. Happy B-Day and all that jazz.

[Varsoon]

Kur0, build me a case against him.
I've thought he was scum for awhile, but I want to hear what you have to say.

I honestly want to wait a couple of days before making my case against him and make an effort to get him lynched. Right now there are many interesting interactions going on so I don't want to get all the attention on his case. If you think he is scum then vote for him, if you want to show other people your reasons do so, mine will come eventually. I only like to make a compiled case when i feel the day is ready to be over, and right now i think we are not there yet. Most of my reasons are already out there on some of my previous posts so it is not like you can't tell why i have him as scum.

This makes sense.
I've already built cases against Fuzzy in the past.
I'll see how he plays for now, too.

That's the thing, Kur0. I think everyone's scum.

[Varsoon]

It's not that hard to spot. Before you voted him, you were his strongest scumread. But when you voted him, you suddenly became a townread of his. Then, when I was beginning to suspect him, he puts me in a "confirmed Town club".

It's all so clear. He's also very, very quick to try to blend in.

Guys. Varsoon probably called it.

It's Fuzzy and NS.

This totally isn't you sheeping the collaborative townread's thoughts exactly. Nope, totally not.

That's pretty much how I'm feeling about this situation right now.
Although, if he flips town, you're pretty screwed, Yoshi.

[Varsoon]

Although, if he flips town, you're pretty screwed, Yoshi.

Why am I the only one who is screwed if Rem flips Town?

You're not the only one, but because you've built a case on him out of your own L-1, it wouldn't look that good for you. Just a heads-up.

I was going to move my vote off of Rem because he finally made an impressive post, but after looking at it and thinking about it for awhile, I'm keeping my vote where it is.

Rem is just pushing all the wrong buttons. He's at L-2 now, right? Regardless, he's panicking really hard.


Thanks for explaining Wifom, though. I figured that's what it meant, but it's a dumb word. I'd just say that Scum's being manipulative. Wiifoam.
I don't like people making the play where they write "Scum don't do this".
That's bullshit.
Scum does anything they want.

[Varsoon]

^ Cool.

Meta me Varsoon. You haven't even begun to see me panic yet.

Squeal, Pig.

[Varsoon]

Mostly impressed that you can post more than a single line of text in a response. You and Yoshi are the top posters above me, but I find a lot of your posts (both of you) to be distracting, indecisive, flip-flopping, fluffy, and so on.

RY: Leaning town at this point
Rem: Leaning scum
Fuzzy: Null-Scum
Varoon: Null (Slowing climbing up my scumlist)
Nacho: Null-Town
kuror0: Null
NS: I still have him as leaning town
Goku: Null (Well, he really haven't posted much.)

If I didn't comment, that means my read still stays same as before.

Town Vs. Town, I'd say.

why?

It's a shame that you think I'm scum, and I'd like to defend myself if you'd flesh out this accusation.

I'm -really- not comfortable with Rem and Yoshi's back and forth
"Im town and I know I am town and I know you are town and because I know you're town and I know I'm town let's not vote for me because I'm town, let's work together as town to vote for someone who isn't us because we're town-confirmed-town at this point amirite?"

Also, it just feels like you're trying too hard to be like "BUT GUYS I AM A PR, DONT LYNCH". Stop writhing around.

[Varsoon]

There's a 100% chance that one of us is a PR.
There's a 33% chance that two of us are.
Ruling myself out as well as the two other scum, that leaves 6 townies.
This means that out of the 6 remaining town, each has about a 20% chance of being a PR.
I hope that this "something" that you have isn't a PR, because posting about it is the scummiest/stupidest thing you could do.

[Varsoon]

I can tell you why in one sentence why you are climbing up my scumlist.

You're climbing up my scumlist because of your weird reaction regarding RY wagon (kinda) falling apart.

I still think Yoshi is scum. He's been a consistent scumread for me. Regardless, he's done nothing pro-town ever.
I changed my vote because it was doing nothing just sitting on Yoshi. I let it sit there for ~15 pages.
I'd rather use my vote to pressure people, which is how we're getting so much out of Rem right now.
Don't worry, should people

actually want to

vote for Yoshi again, I'd have no problem putting him at L-1 or even hammering him should his defense be flimsy.

Votes are important, and they carry power. It's why I feel like Rem's 'hammer'/test on Yoshi was really contrived. He pulled his vote back at light-speed. A better player would have let it sit, or found some other way to pressure someone if they thought scum could slip a hammer in.

[Varsoon]

Unvote, Vote: Nobody Special

first of all holy shit you people are spam posting
second of all GIF can be town for the reaction test that made lazyYoshi town
and POE would dictate Goku the useless joke alt and NS to be scum together
i prefer NS first since he's trying to restart a wagon i grew bored of years ago

I like your post, but this is what I agree with the most.
I think I've gotten what I want out of Rem with my vote.
I do agree that NS is pretty lurky and has made some scum-bluffs, but we'll see what he thinks about this.
UNVOTE: Remembrance
Give my your case, Nobody Special. I'm not going to put you at L-1 or hammer until that happens.
If you lurk this one out, I will vote for you.

I'd probably be more critical of Yoshi and Rem of sheeping, but that'd seem hypocritical with my last move.

[Varsoon]

Just so everyone gets the memo.

Nobody Special is at L-2. If anyone votes for him before he makes his case, you will immediately be scum-suspect. NS, please make a case for yourself.

[Varsoon]

It's not about your vote. It's this one sentence that irks me.

Starting to care less about you being scum or not.
No one's lynching you.

Forgot to address this forever ago and I meant to.


I was pretty frustrated that I spend 10+ pages building a case against Yoshi and even when he got to L-2, there wasn't really much concern about him being lynched. It was a wagon headed nowhere, and that bugged me, because I really thought he was scum.

[Varsoon]

Currently You and kuror0 are my top scumreads. You for just following whoever appears to be the most town at any given time, and kuror0 for passive-aggressive efforts to attack people's credibility rather than actually scumhunting.

While Varsoon is my top townread thus far, he could benefit greatly from learning how to be succinct and concise. Most people aren't going to listen if they have to sift through a wall of text to find two great points.

This is actually a countermeasure for me to discern scum from town. I won't go into the semantics.

I'm glad someone else feels the same way about Yoshi that I do.

[Varsoon]

Well, you guys need to stop posting in 1 liners. Specially when you make 3 posts like those in a row, it makes it hard to read and follow the thread with so much fluff post.

I don't like Rem play at all. Flips-flops way too much, calling confirmed towns all over the place, too many AtE and fluff posting. Where is the town paranoia? His argument was that, if he is scum he would be playing against his win-con, but i got 2 things to say about that: 1) Gambit, 2) WIFOM, if you are scum you could be calling your partner confirmed town, so we can't trust your word in any way.

I don't like Yoshi either. Still sheeping all over the place, which is a scumtell for me, because means he isn't actually scumhunting but just following everyone around. Also personally i hate sheeps, they are one of the most harmful things for town imo.

Right now, I am sold on lynching either fuzzy or Yoshi, considering Rem as another viable option. I am not interested in NS wagon. Nacho must participate more, I found his input a little disappointing tbh.

I'm not so sold on Fuzzy, but I think that's just because I've had time to forget about how obvious scum he was at L-2. He's playing a lot more carefully now, or, uh, it's his birthday and stuff. Either way.
Yoshi's probably scum. I've said it plenty of times, and made good cases, but it doesn't help when half of the inactives aren't voting and when scum won't slam the hammer on their own kind.
I don't think NS is scum. He strikes me more as lurking town. Keeping my vote on him to see what he has to say, if anything.
Nacho's been really too quiet, but that's almost every other person in this game.
Rem's plays are super lame, and I definitely want to forward your point about his fluff, AtE, and confirmed calls. Fuck that noise. Again, it's hard to push a wagon on scum when the only people who'll help you do it are away or scum, themselves.
I really, really want to start a fresh, active wagon on Yoshi or Rem.
I want to see how they respond at L-1.

We'll find out eventually. There's not enough players left in this game who don't know they're town and don't know at least one other player is town who's actually town.

No one knows anyone else's roles other than scum.
As far as I am concerned, all I know is my own role, and that all of you guys have a 1/4 chance to be scum.

[Varsoon]

With the vote shifts and how I feel about NS, I'm going to to put my vote on my usual choice for scum, who has yet to vindicate himself.

UNVOTE: Nobody Special
VOTE: Random Yoshi

I'm not comfortable with letting Rem of the hook just because he's playing the "What have I got in my pocket" game.
Also, his average post has him claiming town about 500 times.

[Varsoon]

I agree with both of your posts, Kur0.

I think Rem might be trying a strategy where he says town as much as possible and hopes the repetition will stick in our subconscious.

[Varsoon]

Want you all to iso me. Tell me I'm not town.

You know who links youtube videos or gifs or whatever?
Scum.
Stop being so distracting.
You're not leading this game.
You're just posting fluff and garbage.

[Varsoon]

^I'm sorry to break it to you, but that's a terrible reason to declare someone being scum. You should be looking at what they're doing consistently, not what they happen to post just one time. Might I remind you of the effort post he made, the reaction test he pulled off that he closed off before an anti-town player could have benefited from it, and how town he's been in general?

For the matter, why are you on my bandwagon again?

Yoshi, you love fluff, don't you?
Rem's consistently posting fluff.
You're feeding him, too.
I'm the one pushing your wagon, Yoshi. You're either scum, or your plays this game are absolutely retarded. You contribute nothing, only post fluff, sheep with every new voice, and have been town-hunting with Rem since he came into the game. Fuck you, no matter what your role is. You're more anti-town right now than lurking scum could ever be.

Something's not right betwinxt you two.

The fact that the last 10 pages have been them town-hunting, posting fluff, buying time, and trying to distract any wagons. Rem's been scum bluffing since day one, and Yoshi's just super-sheeping him.

Seriously GuyInfreezer and everyone else. Just accept the fact that Goku has outted himself as scum. He scum slipped. He has died. He has lost. If you need to kill me first to realize I've been walking rings around the scum team like it ain't no thing and made every single one of you town slip, then I don't even what to say. Hammer NS, then when he flips, Hammer Goku.

You need to have a little faith here, just a little. Yoshi has faith.

I can understand trying to pressure the new player, but I don't feel like there's enough time for that anyway. You just sound lynch-happy at this point. Show me this EPIC SCUM SLIP 360 NOSCOPEXDDD and maybe I'll believe you, but you're playing like shit right now.

He's the easier target and more likely scum than NS is. And we won't have to wait. He's here already.

"Easier target"
Sounds like Town's rhetoric to me.

sure

Fuzzy, it doesn't help your case to lurk for awhile after a wagon ends on you and then start sheeping one of the highest scum-suspects on a lynch founded on weak, scummy rhetoric.


I have faith that Yoshi's an idiot, regardless of alignment.
I also believe that Rem and Fuzzy are likely scum.
Have fun circlejerking while town decides which of you guys to lynch.
It's a headache to play with such shitty, annoying, uninteresting people. Curb your play-types. I know Nacho isn't exactly the most post-happy IC, but at least his posts are consistently good and worthwhile.

[Varsoon]

Okay lynch me then Varsoon. Go on. When I flip vanilla, gunna have to take that home with you. I've done ridiculously pro-town stuff all day.

I'm lynching Fuzzy and Yoshi first, so don't get your panties in a bunch.

[Varsoon]

Not sheeping anyone, Varsoon. Trust me.

When I was writing that I figured you were putting your post on Goku to shift a little pressure on him/see how people would react.
Don't worry too much about your position on the scumdar. I'd rather have 'TownmctownImsoTownIsliptownerrydayImtownie" get voted off because he's useless and annoying and maybe scum, or Yoshi, because he's more likely scum and is just about as pointless in this game.



PR-Edit: Agreeing with Goku on this front.

Rem, so it's buddying when people start to suspect scum together? It sure sucks that town can't group up and start a wagon, because any town grouping up is surely just scum buddying but that's okay because you're town and I'm town and we're all town and--
Sorry, fuck your post style.

Like I said, I'm out for now. Post 5+ pages of worthless fluff, meaningless accusations, and so on. Then maybe people will forget about hunting scum and change their votes to someone who is more likely town.

[Varsoon]

You know what? Fine I'll just build a huge case on Goku, thought maybe I could get you guys just to look over Goku and see that he's scum by PoE but

I really want to win because I'm town

and I want to lynch scum.

Be grateful.

I want you guys to go to post 747#
1. Varsoon states he was frustrated that the wagon with Yoshi went no where when he worked on getting him lynched for so long.
2. Goku says he thinks Varsoon is town and agrees that Yoshi is scumcy (even though he both dropped his role and gave out ridiculously authentic rushed reads)
3. Varsoon, suffering from cognitive dissonance feels relieved to know that someone agrees with him ( says it himself)
4. At some point Varsoon revotes Yoshi.
5. Goku votes Yoshi. Plays the time card too, which is ridiculously scummy and says he won't lynch the second most likely scum player (who was the first until goku started posting and it became obvious he was scum)
6. #782 more buddying.
7. #835 Varsoon blatantly returns the favor, defending him, when he's actually scum. Buddying successful. I wasn't trying to pressure Goku, I already knew he was scum.
8.Varsoon begins openly to insult

Yoshi and I who both believe each other to be town

. Reminder, Guilt by association. Read my iso, I explicitly warned him of it, and he still ended up doing it, proving me completely right.
9. Varsoon says he's going to kill Yoshi and Fuzzy. Both are town and he's making a mistake doing, it not even examining the case on goku.
10. Goku is an alt, an experienced alt and he played Varsoon like a harp.

Can we lynch Goku now?

Goku reads Yoshi as scum in 711
I say I'm relieved someone else thinks that way of Yoshi in 749 as a litmus.
Goku put his vote on Random Yoshi in post 781.
I'll agree that 782 seems like buddying, but even I'd be interested in people's play-styles.

Except, after that, I don't mention Goku or post again until 835.
At this point, I bring up that you're (as you have always been), constantly reminding us that you're town, and that you're shifting the focus of the game on yet another person. It's too schizophrenic for me to comfortably accept. I took the chance to bold/underline you -still- doing that in the post I'm quoting. It just happened that your new target was Goku, who, at that point, had posted a meager 9 times, which hardly lets you build a case out of him. In fact, if anything, it seems like you're trying to illicit a response, or look for a slip, but that's so transparent that it's laughable. No, you're just upholding your current typical, annoying posting style.

I've been insulting you guys for a few reasons, but, at the most surface level, it's because you're both being annoying and contributing nothing to town.

It's actually worth noting that you've been building cases against people who suspect you--but the most obvious time this has happened is with Goku.
You read goku isn't scum in 640.
But he's on your scumlist in 765.
At this point, Goku had only read Kur0 and Yoshi as scum.
You vote Goku in 818.
At this point, the only thing you have to go off of is slight buddying reads with me.
It's pretty hypocritical, considering the levels of buddying you've been attempting.
Speaking of hypocrites, in 819 alone, you say that he's scumslipped for saying that you're town--except that he never called you town in the game. Ever. Oh, and just a few lines down in 819? You claim to know that Yoshi is town.


I could be missing something, but that's what I'm getting from my ISO's.

Nice try.
Here's where you build a case that he's playing me SO HARD.
Except even if he is, and you or Yoshi flips town, then he's immediate scum suspect.
If he isn't, and you or Yoshi flip scum, well, that makes my day and ruins yours.
Regardless,
Town wins in either scenario, which are both pretty likely at this point.


Rem, a strategy of several-posts-per-hour and no quoting makes ISOs harder to do. This is anti-town.
Employing a rhetoric of repetiton to constantly say "Lynch X, he is scum" and "I am town" is also really scummy.
I don't like your play-style, and I don't like the plays you've made during this game.
Let me re-iterate what this means for you.
It makes me pay more attention to you, and it makes you seem more like scum.
Even if you aren't scum, it makes you annoying to play with.
It's not a good way to play the game.
If I end up in another game with you, if you play this way, I will just quit the game.
It isn't fun.
It isn't town.


PREDIT
Also, your reaction test was terrible, contrived, and transparent.
Furthermore, all the points you make about other players (bussing,buddying,coaching,WIFOM,scumbluffing) are far more applicable when setting them upon you.

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE: Random Yoshi
VOTE: Remembrance

I'm lynching your play-style.

[Varsoon]

My vote puts Remembrance at L-2.

[Varsoon]

Has anyone noticed how Goku has managed to split the Town into pieces with just a few posts?

Nice redirect, Yoshi, but I'd prefer if you'd focus on the case that I am making against Rem.

Also, it was Rem who caused any reactions based around Goku. This is evident from my ISO.

If anyone's been making chaos this game, it's the guy who came in half-way through and has twice as many posts as me.

[Varsoon]

I'm still town you know. You're playing directly against your win con by policy lynching me because you don't like my play style. That's anti-town. Extremely Anti-town. Read the theory.

Gunna have to live with the fake you're a puppet. You'll improve, I promise.

You replied exactly like I expected you to.
I specifically have been running a wagon on your playstyle, just to see when you'd bring up that it is a policy lynch.
Which is a misdirect, as
A- You're only at L-2.
B- I've been coupling every criticism of your play-style along with legitimate scum-reads of you.


Appeal to emotion?
Squeal more.

[Varsoon]

Yup, but I caught the scum team, so I did better than you.

A healthy compromise.
If you flip town,
then we lynch your 'scum team'.
If you flip scum,
Then we win.


Hey, look, town only loses after, what? 3-mislynches?
This will only result in one mislynch, tops, and in gives us town security.

I like the idea of security.

[Varsoon]

I guess you would rather lose, then be wrong about something. Remember Varsoon you're human. I'm human. And the fact you're doing this just shows you're human. This is nothing to be ashamed of after the game has ended. And both the scum players are dead. Don't let this bother you. It's normal to get emotional in mafia. At first at least.

Another appeal.

Keep Squealing.

[Varsoon]

Remembrance is Town, which is why I am not participating in his lynch. His reaction test against me made me really certain that he was Town.

No one is falling for this 'reaction test so GOOOOOOD' play anymore.
You can drop it.
How about making an actual case for why you're not going to vote him.
I know it's difficult, since he's been calling you town all day.

[Varsoon]

I'll have one up tomorrow, Varsoon.

Thank you.

[Varsoon]

Just to be sure, Rem,
Your scum-team is Goku and NS, right?

[Varsoon]

Honestly, if you're town, I'd imagine that scum would just NK you anyway.
This gives us a lot assurance on who to vote.

[Varsoon]

So, Varsoon, what are you thinking?

I'm thinking that Rem's scum.
But if he isn't scum, then I'll have to pour over his reads, ISO a couple of people, and figure out what to do from there.
Clearly, Goku is the most obvious choice for a lynch if Rem flips town, but we'll see.
Regardless, Rem has claimed Vanilla Town in the past, so if his truly is, we won't be hurting town as much as mislynching a PR.

I think this is the best play to make right now, following the reasoning made in this post and the last few ones I have made.
Rem's so confident that Goku is scum, that he's willing to die for it.
I think it gives us a good place to go in Day 2, regardless of the flip.

[Varsoon]

Agreed. So we lynch Rem today, and Goku tomorrow, depending on Rem's flip, of course.

That's my plan of action. It seems like the safest play for town to make on this D1.

[Varsoon]

So yeah, my interviewing method is badass and you're just all jealous. Just can't recognize a good playstyle when you see it

Thank you for your reads and rationale.
I understand the purpose of the playstyle, it's just really not my cup of tea.

[Varsoon]

@Rem: Why NS wagon instead of Goku wagon all of the sudden?

Maybe I can see Rem/Nacho team a bit... But I don't want to dig deep into that for now because it's just my gut feeling.

It's important to see what he flips first, and how people react.

[Varsoon]

Kuror0" That video I posted, do you remember what I did in the other game when we won? I posted the same video. Is that enough to convince you of something? What's the implication of me posting that video, do you think?

WIFOM.
As scum, the same argument could be used to try to convince town.
This is the still the best move we can make D1.

[Varsoon]

Just let him do it. Maybe this game will go somewhere. It's D1 and we're at 42 pages. You guys are lucky i'm still here.

Anyone can click Activity Overview and see why we're 40+ pages on day 1.

I support the Hammer on Rem.
iirc, his claim was along the lines of, "Okay, lynch me."

[Varsoon]

I promised that I'd look into Goku and NS for Rem.
The Kur0 NK really helped this decision, too.
VOTE: Nobody Special

[Varsoon]

Oof, it doesn't help that I'm suspicious of everyone at this point.

Nacho or Yoshi, honestly.
I've always been on the Yoshi train,
And the fact Nacho had a vote on NS at the end of the last day...

Regardless, it's speculation.


UNVOTE: Nobody Special

I'd rather the hammer not be dropped so instantly.

[Varsoon]

If he flips town, Yoshi is confirmed for scum.

VOTE: Nobody Special

[Varsoon]

You put him at L-1, and I think you're scum anyway.

[Varsoon]

Why do you think that I'm scum? Summarise it before the Day ends.

Post 92, Post 160, Post 217, Post 259, Post 269, Post 339, Post 650.

Pretty much sums it up on a play-by-play basis.
And if you mean -when- NS Flips town, vote Fuzzy so scum wins, kk.

But honestly, I'm regressing to my Yoshi Fuzzy scumteam.

[Varsoon]

Alright, if i had to guess, I'd say at least one scum was on that wagon, which leaves four people as possible scum to pick through.

Four people not including you?
Convenient.

[Varsoon]

varsoon are you honestly just logging the fuck out after a quickhammer?
don't let him get off the hook for that so easily.

But if Varsoon is town, he generally has natural thought processes going for him, he has sticking his neck out a lot, he has natural reads, he has natural interactions with me, he has a hard-to-fake tone that draws people to calling him town as fuck. However, with the quickhammer he falls down pretty fucking far in the good books, and during the next day he needs to be pinned down and forced to give a full reads list with no nulls and explain why the fuck he quickhammered. What I hate most about this whole situation is how he was willing to be active and engage UNTIL I called him out for the bullshit quickhammer.

Makes sense, and I apologize for the quickhammer. It was a pretty scum thing to do, to be honest.
I was waiting on NS to make his case after dinner, or sometime today, but he didn't.
I took my gut reaction and went with it.
If he flips town, I'll be glad to comply with anything you ask me to do. I can see how this would put town in a hard spot--but town loses if I get lynched, because I promise you that I am VT.
I haven't claimed my role until now, and thoughtfully so, but if you're going to trust me on anything, trust that I am Town.
If I need to make a better defense for myself on D3, I will.

As far as the quickhammer disengagement, I just got home with a friend, opened the thread, hammered, and then we played games until he left a few minutes ago. He was getting tired of me looking through my own posts to find when I'd made cases against Yoshi in the past.

With Nacho defending Yoshi so stridently, it makes me think that Yoshi isn't scum.
Although I get the nagging feeling that Nacho/Yoshi could be a scumteam.
Or Nacho/Fuzzy.

But, honestly, I don't feel that, and so I think Goku and Nobody Special are my current highest candidates for scum.

Nacho's reads on Goku/ANG were pretty spot-on.

[Varsoon]

i also don't get how ns flipping town => me being scum

can somebody explain this

I was reaction testing because of how you handled your vote on him.
I think you're pretty town, now. Even though it conflicts me to say it, since you've been so anxious and sheepish the whole game.

i think that i see Varsoon.

Yeah, was responding to things.
I think I'm also frustrated with how long this newb game has gone on, too.
I'd like to be able to sign up for new games, and I guess I was hoping to be NK'd.
Ah well.
More than that, though, I'd like to win.

[Varsoon]

So you think Yoshi is town, but you say that you could see a Nacho/Yoshi scum team? Wow Varsoon.

Yeah, I -think- Yoshi is town.
It is -possible- that there is a Nacho/Yoshi scumteam.

[Varsoon]

Wait, maybe Approximately Normal Guy parked his vote on Nobody Special during early Day 1 to bus/gain towncred if Nobody Special was lynched?

I hadn't considered that.
Good catch.

[Varsoon]

Also, if Nobody Special flips Town, here's what we'll do during LyLo: have pseudo-votes. We should basically

FoS: <player>

and

UnFoS: <player>

to deprave Scum's ability to quickhammer if a single vote is placed incorrectly.

Deal?

I'm down with this idea.
If he flips town, we have to take our time, get really good reads, and come to a solid consensus.
Of course, keep in mind that scum'll be trying to trick us the whole damn time.
They might even bus eachother to build cred with town.
So, regardless, the hypothetical day 4 will be a headache.

I

really

hope NS just flips scum.

[Varsoon]

Yes, sorry, last night was ....interesting.

Anyway, since I'm hammered:

My only true scumread is fuzzy.

RandomYoshi is very, very scummy; I don't, however, think that newbscum would be quite that bold and aggressive, so... WIFOMWIFOMWIFOM.


I know I flip-flopped on Varsoon; so keep an eye on him, just in case.

Nacho's activity in this game has been lower than normal, so if no one else shows up as obvscum, go looking there.

Ah shit, confirmed for VT.
What about ANG/Goku?

[Varsoon]

Varsoon, why did you quickhammer?

Intuition, bias due to Rem's claims, desperation due to the length of the game, anxiousness after the long night, frustration when our doctor was killed.

It's clear that the scum are doing their nk's based off of the most experienced opponents. From this, I can deduce that scum is someone who has been in previous games/seen previous games with these players--and is intimidated by them.

Do you think Goku is scum, Yoshi?

I think that we lost this game (so far) because of Rem's playstyle, to be honest. He distracted the players too much and made D1 40 pages long.
So, I need to re-evaluate things from the ground up.
I've got class in about 20 minutes, but after that, I'll be at work, and I can give a more thorough account of how I think this game is going and who I think scum really is.

I understand we are in lylo. This is the ideal game state. Three of us are town. Two are scum.

I want you all to forget everything about each other and start fresh today. Same goes for me. I know -a lot- of players have called me obvious/noobtown since the game began: My quickhammer was given to shatter that illusion that anyone could be

confirmed

town before they are lynched/killed. I want you all to ISO the four other players in the game and give your honest responses to them. This is the best way to start the day, as we get fresh information and we can honestly gauge where each player stands. On top of that, keep in mind that two of these players are scum, and that they're going to likely manipulate what they have to say about the other players in order to do one of two things:
Kill town with a mis-lynch
Earn town favor by lynching the other scum.

Please, be critical of EVERY other player, regardless of if you think they're town/scum. Everyone should be a suspect, including me.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon, I believe that Goku is scum. There's something about him that just doesn't sit well with me. I want to discuss things with him before I place down my vote, though.

But what I don't get is why this is the ideal game state. Care to explain this, Varsoon? And what are your stances on the rest of the players in this game?

It's the ideal game state because there are real consequences for town should they make a mistake. Before this, as town, we could relax and allow ourselves a 3-lynch buffer of security before the real game began. With only 5 players, the stakes are much, much higher, and with 2/5 of the players as scum, there's a good chance to find scum as well. This forces town to play well, but it also forces scum to do their best--since there's such a high chance of them being lynched.

I'll ISO and give my stances when I'm at work. Here's a quick run-down of how I feel pre-ISO, though.

fuzzybutternut- I really don't like how the entire L-1 situation was handled. I think that he was caught at that point and the way he started posting afterwards betrays a really scum-vibe to me. I wish I would have pushed his wagon harder on day 1.

Goku- He lurks far too much, and he better start posting soon. I didn't pay a lot of attention to ANG, who I think he replaced. I'm a bit on the fence about this one, but I think an ISO will give me a much better call on it.

GuyInFreezer- Same issue. He lurks a lot, but as we proved with NS, lurking =/= scum. I'll have to ISO him to get a clearer read, but I didn't like how he came into the game with antagonism towards Rem, especially now that Rem flipped town. Regardless, we'll see where this road leads.

RandomYoshi- You're another player I wish we lynched earlier. I've built my case against you time and time again, and it will be really painful if you flip town. You're too eager to shift blame and wag fingers, and the start of this day is not in your favor. It seems really scum to reiterate my quickhammer and to pressure GIF for scum-reads. In fact, it points towards a Yoshi/GIF scumteam, especially since his reads were that Goku and I were scum. I know that I'm VT and we all know that Goku's had somewhat of a recent wagon pushed against him as well. Regardless, I will ISO you and provide an up-to-date read on if I think you're scum or town.

I know this reflects my original call of Yoshi/Fuzzy as the scumteam, but I think that GIF and Goku are just as likely to be scum. It'd be great if you guys could vindicate yourselves in the next few posts and prove that you're town instead.

[Varsoon]

Lurk? I was on V/LA. If you didn't lolquickhammer D2, I would've been there to comment.

Sorry, didn't realize this.

Regardless, you need to start posting pretty fast, and with posts that give a better read on who you are. Frankly, this post that I'm responding to seems evasive and quick to shift blame onto me for the quickhammer. If you're town, you'd think you'd refrain from such scummy behavior.

[Varsoon]

So yeah.

FoS: Varsoon
FoS: Goku
FoS: fuzzybutternut

I am quite confident with calling GuyInFreezer Town. But I need to discuss this matter with him thoroughly before making any sudden movements.

Why? I just made a post saying that this mode of thinking is anti-town.

Let's comment on Varsoon's reads. Weeeee.

1) basically most of his reads says "oh this guy is scummy. Let me iso him."
2) so what about fuzzy's L-1 act did you find scummy?
3) elaborate on my "antagonism" on Rem.
4) his read on RY I don't understand. Being wishy-washy I could see, but how is pressuring others to present read scummy? Also because I said V/Goku scumteam you say "oh it can be RY/Guy scumteam." OMGUS.
5) his conclusion: everyone is equally likely to be scum. My take on this is that this is too much for town paranoia. I want everyone to comment on this.

I'm glad that you could breakdown and straw-man my arguments for the other three players here. It helps my case against you, once again.
You're putting as much weight on me as you can, using the quickhammer as leverage to do so, should any attention be shifted onto you. Your employ of accusative rhetoric betrays a scummier approach to how you're considering me.

Allow me to approach each of your points and answer them.

1. Yes, most people here are scummy. However, this is a tactic that I employed--by discussing what I found scummy about players, I allowed the scum players to speak towards that and give up scumslips of their own. Taking the bait, perse. I could mount a good argument for any player being town or scum at this point, but by manipulating discourse that solely betrayed scum-tells, I hoped to illicit an immediate response to that.

2. Ah, I meant to say 'NoLynch'. Sorry about that. Read my original post with that in mind.

3. You both entered the game at each other's throats. I commented on this in an earlier post, ISO me to find it. In fact, ISO me to make an argument against me. I think it'd be most telling.

4. Oh, pressing others is understandable. Asking a direct question to a certain player right after the night kill? Questionable. As for my call on you being a scumteam, I wanted to see your responses to it. Yoshi ignored it a little and shifted more focus back onto you, but you spoke directly to it with the incredulous response above. If you'd like to highlight the supposed scumteam between me and Goku, go ahead and ISO us, present your case, and, I'm sure, it'll reveal plenty.

5. It seems like your response is the inverse of mine--your conclusion is that I am scum. It's so thinly veiled, too. In fact, the entire ordeal of you calling me scum so directly, then asking everyone else to "comment on this" is a subconscious tactic of buddying coupled with portrayal of your opinion as truth. The truth is that I'm VT and that you're digging a deeper and deeper hole by pushing such a sudden wagon against me. Perhaps you should consider the fact that the more and more that you make such libelous claims against someone who is town, the more that person is going to doubt your supposed role as town. This is good advice as town and as scum. Instead of being as inane as you have been, parse out some rhetorically sound investigations of my play within this game.

[Varsoon]

For the record, I'll keep my replies short until this Day has proceeded for a long time, preferably a week or so.

Why? I just made a post saying that this mode of thinking is anti-town.

I am putting suspicion on everyone who I think could be scum. I want to put every scum-suspect under massive scrutiny throughout the entirety of this Day. I want to analyse every reply I get thoroughly, and I won't vote until I'm certain that I've found Scum.

I was questioning why you'd label someone as town so outwardly.
It could always be a means of reaction testing, so I'm sorry if I spoiled that for you.

[Varsoon]

Doing ISO's now. I suggest everyone else ISO the other players and build their cases.

Remember, at this point, it's only 3 to lynch. This means that if you vote for someone, and both scum players vote for someone, we lose.

[Varsoon]

So if anyone parks a vote, I will slap them.

[Varsoon]

3) that's because me and Rem are friends the reason that I replaced in this game in the first place was to play mafia with him. My "antagonism" was to get his reaction most of the time. I began to dislike his reactions. I pushed him more. That's what was happening D1.

4) he obviously asked me specifically to present my read because I wasn't around D2. I didn't see anything wrong with it. So you justify your OMGUS with reaction testing? Justifying one's scummy action with the excuse of reaction testing is scummy.

5) "I'm VT and you're scum because you're attacking me." Hmm... Guess who found that scummy D1?
You did? Why would you do something that you yourself found scummy?
Speaking of claims, why did you claim yesterday? You had no reason to claim at all yesterday.

@RY: that popcorn was for fos. Not claim.

You should avoid playing games with your friends.

I think you don't understand the point behind my response.
Another nice strawman, though.
However, my exact response was more along the lines of 'I am claiming VT and, by mounting an offense based on such little evidence and so much hyperbole, you are simultaneously making yourself an easy target and looking more scum.'

It's clear why I made a claim in the very post that I made a claim in. Good try, though. For those who don't want to ISO and look at post 1106, Nacho calls me out on my quickhammer and I make my claim for VT.

Hilarious that scum then kills Nacho in order to
1) Silence the most experienced player left in the game.
2) Make me look like scum by killing the last person to really question me.

In fact, GIF calling attention to my claim is probably him laying the tracks for making this argument against me. However, you should understand a few things about me.
My playstyle is methodical and is wrapped in very close attention to everything that I write and submit.
If I was scum, do you really think I'd make such a stupid move as killing the player who mounted the best claim against me?
It'd be a petty and obvious NK, and so, I feel some pity for the scum in this game, since they clearly think so little of me that they figure they can paint me as the sort of player who would make such a night kill.

Reading over this, Yoshi's going to hate how WIFOMesque this sounds.


As far as finding role-claiming D1 scummy, yeah, it is. I made my claim in lylo. Role-claiming with 9 players on board is scummy because there is the benefit of the doubt as well as the fact that it has no credibility. Role-claiming after making a quickhammer on D2 and putting the game in lylo? An entirely different situation.

GIF, could you please look at the other players as well? You do realize that there are two scum players, right? I could never be both of them, no matter how much I'd like to be.

[Varsoon]

My ISO of ANG:

I have only played one newbie game before this one, so I'm about as close to newbie as you can get.

And I'm sorry yoshi, but I have to agree with NS here.

Positions himself as a noob-player. Somewhat of a buddying move with me.

In fact, if you were town, wouldn't you want to discuss things that might possibly lead to our success?

Yes, of course I'd want to discuss things that are beneficial for us Townies to win. I just wanted you to highlight how it could be contributing to our success as Town. In fact, all I wanted to know was your mindset behind the topics you brought up. Now that you have explained satisfactorily how it can help our success as Town, my question has been thoroughly answered.

Fairnuff, but I won't change my vote until we get some more discussion rolling.
I feel like I might be too chatty, but I think it's really important that we all chat as much as possible.
The best way we can route out the scum is to talk a lot. This way, the people who aren't as active are under scrutiny and scum is forced to be more social, leading to a higher chance of slipping up. We should hold a quota of so many posts per real-time day. Falling under the quota doesn't benefit town at all, and so those are people we can lynch if we don't agree on a definitive mafia target.

Does this sound like a good plan, everyone?

Super eager and ready to get the ball rolling. I like this guy.

And it's a great plan! Discussion is our greatest weapon. In my first newbie game I started getting really frustrated because the game wasn't active enough for me. It makes it nearly impossible to move forward when it's day 3 and most of the people in the game aren't even saying anything.

Let's not forget that people do have real lives, however. So it should be something within reason. I'm thinking like 4-5 posts per day?

Here, more buddying. I don't like that he agrees with my plan so quickly, then retracts when everyone else points out that it was a bad one. If anyone failed my litmus test, it was ANG.

@ANG- Never think that scum WON'T do something. Ever. Scum are actually more inclined to claim a PR, and I can point you to games where that HAS happened. IF we do have a cop, do not claim if you get an innocent, and if you get a guilty, subtly claim. I made this mistake in a game of mine, and was lynched (town still won though). Keep in mind, this was Day 2. Newb scum are less inclined to do it, but it's still there as an option. Never underestimate scum.

I mean, I can see why scum would want to claim a pr if they could get away with it. I just thought in this setup it would be a big risk, and a 1-for-1 in a 9 player game seems to be better for town.

My reads so far:

Varsoon I think is likely town. The subject matter of his posts isn't always helpful to town, but his attitude and mindset just seem town to me. He's kind of dominated the conversation, and I struggle to imagine a guy who was scum in his first game ever being that confident.

Yoshi is null at this point. I liked him out of the gate, but his read on varsoon seemed to change suddenly when fuzzy came in and voted him. He forgot me in his first post, then suddenly remembered I was his biggest scumread for supporting an idea he also supported. That just doesn't seem natural.

Nobody Special seems like he is either uninterested or frustrated. That could be due to scum alignment but there is nothing that makes me dislike him to this point.

Fuzzy is a slight town read for me. I like how he came in and got the game moving somewhat. He seems like he is trying to help us all out, but at the same time it's a newbie game so I'm paranoid of more experienced players.

Nacho is really difficult to read. I don't think he's really said much (I'm posting on my phone, so I'm doing what I can from memory, as going back and forth for every player isn't worth the time nor the effort right now)

Nothing stands out about anybody else so far. I might make a follow-up post after this one once I read back over some more

The initial doubt of Yoshi looks to be shifting weight onto him, which could be a tactic post-varsoon buddying, ergo, getting me and other players to pay more attention to Yoshi. He acknowledges here that I am one of the most 'pro-town' players and that I am active, and so by shifting focus, especially my focus, onto Yoshi, he may be setting up for an early Mislynch, provided that Yoshi is town and he is scum.

Calls NS out as scum. We all now know NS is town. Not that big of a slip, though. Everyone's considered NS to be scum at one point.

He gives Fuzzy a town-read, despite Fuzzy's introduction reading as really scummy to me. This is the biggest slip, to me, as it comes at a point when things were pretty heated about Fuzzy. It seems almost too much like he's trying to diffuse a situation. I'll pay more attention to Goku/Fuzzy's relationship after the switch.

Whoa. I missed the No lynch vote because it came between my catching up posts.

Yeah, you should not do that. No lynching just gives scum a free kill and we gain no information from the day.

Allying with town, but using good logic to do so.

UNVOTE: NS

I'm not quite sold on fuzzy being scum here. To me it reads more like he's just got the wrong idea about no lynch. If this was some crucial part of the game, like tied lynches or something, and he refused to pick a side, then that would be a much bigger concern for me. I could be biased because I'm also struggling to form a solid scum read on anyone, but I can at least see why fuzzy would argue the position.

@fuzzy, 1) why did you claim? Nobody stated intent to hammer, nor did anyone ask for a claim. If there is anything about the whole exchange that makes me not like you, it's that. It felt rushed.

2) You really should just let it go. No lynch obviously isn't going to happen today, so you're just wasting your time with it.

Still seems to be trying to diffuse the entire Fuzzy situation, especially after the No Lynch happened.

Anyway, if there's anything that I'm getting from this, it's that ANG practically ignored people who lurked and only focused on his interactions with the active players of the game, with whom he's seen buddying with people who are still alive today and claiming scum on those who are not.

However, nothing here betrays a hard scum-slip to me. In fact, a lot of this reads similarly to how I considered NS when I made the case for him being town in D1.

ISO'ing Goku soon.

[Varsoon]

That same post 1106 is what's making your claim scummy - it's not just a claim, but a claim with AtE.

For other ppl, I'm still waiting for fuzzy and RY to answer my question (other than the #5) and my other scum suspect isn't even here. So till then, we can continue discussing.

I can see the AtE when I say "If you trust me on anything, trust me on this."

However, it's a bit weak to say that my entire claim of being VT relied solely on that.


Another thing I'm noticing--
What I said about the NK on Nacho, with it possibly working in favor of painting suspicion on townies who Nacho made strong cases against:
Nacho also made a very good case against Goku/ANG. I'm going to be paying more attention to my own ISO of Goku as well as Nacho's case against him, but, please, keep in mind that the NK on Nacho is a possible scum tactic to have attention put onto one of us.

[Varsoon]

Also i'd really want to know why you claimed yesterday. I'm not seeing why.

I quickhammered someone.
He flipped town.
We were put in lylo.
The most experienced player in the game began to build a case against me.

I'd love it if you'd actually read my posts. I've said all of these things at least once before.

[Varsoon]

Before I ISO Goku:

But if Varsoon is town, he generally has natural thought processes going for him, he has sticking his neck out a lot, he has natural reads, he has natural interactions with me, he has a hard-to-fake tone that draws people to calling him town as fuck. However, with the quickhammer he falls down pretty fucking far in the good books, and during the next day he needs to be pinned down and forced to give a full reads list with no nulls and explain why the fuck he quickhammered. What I hate most about this whole situation is how he was willing to be active and engage UNTIL I called him out for the bullshit quickhammer.

In honor of Nacho, I am doing this with my ISOs. There will be NO Null reads, and I will explain in full detail, every reason why I quickhammered after this ISO. Honestly, re-reading this is what makes me put GIF in town-territory pre-ISO. GIF is currently pinning me down, and is trying everything he can to get the best read on me as is possible. I engaged with this in order to try to get a good read on GIF, and I was leaning pretty town before reading what Nacho posted here. Like I said, this might change when I ISO, but for now, I'm seeing GIF as town. You're very right to pressure/tunnel me the way you are doing, and I will continue to engage and respond, as I feel that it gives everyone really good information to work on in regards to both of us.

This would start the same time as my other game.

VOTE: Nobody Special

Clearly has nothing to offer!

sounds fake as shit

Hello everybody, let's have a nice game. I'm one of your SE's, so if you have any question about rules and stuff like that you can ask me and i will try to guide you in the right way.

VOTE: Normal Guy

He is creepy.

You're breaking my heart

subtle AtE

I have only played one newbie game before this one, so I'm about as close to newbie as you can get.

And I'm sorry yoshi, but I have to agree with NS here.

...he says as he continues to vote NS
the apologizing to Yoshi also feels off, could be a buddy tell, could not be a buddy tell

Super eager and ready to get the ball rolling. I like this guy.

And it's a great plan! Discussion is our greatest weapon. In my first newbie game I started getting really frustrated because the game wasn't active enough for me. It makes it nearly impossible to move forward when it's day 3 and most of the people in the game aren't even saying anything.

Let's not forget that people do have real lives, however. So it should be something within reason. I'm thinking like 4-5 posts per day?

sucking up hard to varsoon

Well, kuror0 makes valid points. Forcing people to talk could create unnecessary fluff for scum to hide behind.

@SE's/IC (can't remember who..I'm on my phone right now and looking back would be a hassle): has anything like this been done before, that you've seen? I can see both the pros and cons, but it would be good if I could look at a past game where the town did this.

holding back to much, no vote down still

Nobody Special seems like he is either uninterested or frustrated. That could be due to scum alignment but there is nothing that makes me dislike him to this point.

Nacho is really difficult to read. I don't think he's really said much (I'm posting on my phone, so I'm doing what I can from memory, as going back and forth for every player isn't worth the time nor the effort right now)

hate when people are just like "Nacho is hard to read", but I grin and bear it most of the time
NS bit is odd because he is null, could be scum, but there's nothing wrong with him
scum are afraid to take positions on buddies a lot of the time, NS strong partner tell

Whoa. I missed the No lynch vote because it came between my catching up posts.

Yeah, you should not do that. No lynching just gives scum a free kill and we gain no information from the day.

cool this gives us nothing

UNVOTE: NS

I'm not quite sold on fuzzy being scum here. To me it reads more like he's just got the wrong idea about no lynch. If this was some crucial part of the game, like tied lynches or something, and he refused to pick a side, then that would be a much bigger concern for me. I could be biased because I'm also struggling to form a solid scum read on anyone, but I can at least see why fuzzy would argue the position.

@fuzzy, 1) why did you claim? Nobody stated intent to hammer, nor did anyone ask for a claim. If there is anything about the whole exchange that makes me not like you, it's that. It felt rushed.

2) You really should just let it go. No lynch obviously isn't going to happen today, so you're just wasting your time with it.

no idea why he unvoted
seems like an awkward hop of a wagon followed with posturing and getting ready to jump on the next one
not scum with fuzzy

Scum won't Lynch itself
Scum is playing it safe
Scum is making us doubt each other
Scum is building cases for future mislynches

I disagree with most of these on principal.

Scum will actually lynch itself, and in some situations, it's best if scum lynches itself.
Scum will sometimes play it safe, but it's also common for scum to be very vocal and pro-town. Those are, infact, the worst kind of scum, because they're hard to read and harder to lynch.
Scum doesn't always play deceptive games. Newb-scum specifically has a tendency to lie low so hard that they forget to scumhunt. Town tends to feel the most deceptive because they believe in what they say, and sometimes they say ridiculous things, and make lapses in judgement. Most town-lynches are actually lead by town, funny enough. Scum are the ones cheering on the sidelines.

nitpicky as fuck, useless as fuck
IIoA

So wait, you don't like that he put you at L-1, so you put him at L-1?

this has essentially been Goku's whole game outside of that
potshot, potshot, potshot
what are your reads?

I largely agree with Nacho's assessment of ANG, especially after my ISO. At first, I saw it as possible scum-targeting, but with Nacho confirmed as town, it seems a lot more credible. I'll speak towards my read on Goku post-ISO.

[Varsoon]

Goku and fuzzy are the Scum.

Discuss.

Getting towards this with my ISOs. Way to spoil all the suspense. Then again, this play is pretty Yoshi. You've always been one to point out the obvious, and while I've felt that it was super-scummy to do so, I will have to reconsider it a little. I don't know if this is Yoshi saying he truly thinks Goku and Fuzzy are scum, or if it's scumYoshi saying that because Varsoon thinks that's the most likely scumteam, let's focus our town-power there. I'm going to go with the first of those, but let me finish my ISOs before I start to truly decide who is and who isn't scum.

When I'm asking you a question like that, that's because I really can't find the answer among your post. Telling me to ISO won't work. Because I already read them and I still won't be able to find it. (Well maybe sometimes I just forget.) So just telling me would be faster for both you and me.
/englishismysecondlanguage

That's the only reason? You were just afraid that IC was making a case against you? Noted.

Stopping my ISOs here to explain, in full detail, every bit of my decision to lynch NS.

[Varsoon]

Reasons behind my Quickhammer:

I hope that I can explain this in a step-by-step manner from the onset of Day 2.

1. Rem flips town.
2. NS is the person who hammered Rem. This makes me heavily suspicious. Especially since he did so without very much explanation as to why.
3. Kur0 is killed at night. One of the last posts Kur0 made was that he was going to go after NS if Rem flipped town. This plays to my earlier theory that scum is NK'ing targets who build suspicion against other townies. The same thing happened to Nacho, who started to build a case against me at the end of Day 2. If I'm lynched, scum wins via this tactic. On day 2, however, I fell for it, and suspected that NS was the one behind the NK of Kur0.
4. Nacho, who I believe to be the voice of reason in this game, voted for NS.
5. I respond on post 1057 by voting NS, speaking towards point #3 and point #1.
6. Post 1059. NS disengages and leaves to dinner. Say's he'll make posts later that night. He never does.
7. I pull back on the NS wagon, suspecting that Nacho could be pushing it for that early lynch. It's here that I begin to suspect that Nacho is scum and I go back to my initial reasoning that NS is just inactive town.
8. I see Yoshi put NS back at L-1. Having built cases against Yoshi in the past, I see this as a chance to quickhammer NS, who could be scum, and if he flips town, to have pretty definitive evidence that Yoshi is scum for putting NS at L-1.
9. I was frustrated with the length of our game.
10. I wanted to move on to other games. (This and 9 are evident in post 1106)
11. I was pressured IRL to get off the computer by a friend, who wanted to record more of a LP series we were doing, since he had to leave in about an hour or so.
12. With all of this in mind, I quickhammered NS, crossed my fingers that he was scum, and was hopeful that if he flipped town, it'd give me vital info on my usual scum-suspect, Yoshi.


Reviewing this, it seems quite strange that Yoshi is pushing for Fuzzy/Goku lynches so hard after I dropped the hammer. Why wouldn't he be pushing a lynch on me, or on Nacho, or even GIF?

[Varsoon]

Sorry about the gap in activity. Got off of work half-way through my ISO of Goku.

Currently You and kuror0 are my top scumreads. You for just following whoever appears to be the most town at any given time, and kuror0 for passive-aggressive efforts to attack people's credibility rather than actually scumhunting.
While Varsoon is my top townread thus far, he could benefit greatly from learning how to be succinct and concise. Most people aren't going to listen if they have to sift through a wall of text to find two great points.

We already know Kur0 was town. Buddying here with me, just as ANG did.

That was just another town slip goku, don't worry about it, I'm not the lynch today. It's just simply a bad idea at this point.

Would now be a great time to mention that there's no such thing as a town slip? Good scum can mimic town almost exactly, so any slip they make to prove their towniness could just as easily be faked. You're really insistent on confirming town that isn't confirmed. I'm watching you.
We have just under a week, this is way to close to deadline for votes to be scattered everywhere. Pick a wagon and move it.
I am unwilling to vote NS as the case against him is not well-supported by the facts in the least, and I do not believe he is scum. There is most likely one scum on his wagon, my guess is RandomYoshi. The next biggest wagon, FBN, who's wagon is also ill-supported is, once again, probably on town.
VOTE: RandomYoshi
If if comes down to those other two wagons, I would hammer FBN but not NS.

Really anxious for a wagon to be pushed, points out Yoshi here. Puts a vote on him and considers FBN. This echoes how I think, and is buddying with me, but at the same time, it's an interesting point, because since then, Yoshi has been all about the Goku wagon.

This is actually a countermeasure for me to discern scum from town. I won't go into the semantics.

I'm actually very interested. If you don't get to it in-game for whatever reason, I'd love to know after.

More buddying.

Fuzzy earns townpoints for withdrawing a vote when he could have feigned not paying attention.
RY earns scumpoints for sneaking in a vote after two quickvotes and no explanation.

Here, he steps back from fuzzy and puts more 'scumpoints' on Yoshi. Seems like Bussing/starting wagon on Yoshi, who most other players are divided on.

Actually the important thing is to convince everyone

else

that it worked. And seeing as nobody actually knows what on earth the gambit actually

was

, I wish you the best of luck. Oh, and creativity, you'll need it.

Need creativity for what, exactly? Seems too much like coaching/scumbluff, but I could be over-reading.

You said

You do realize that means you're almost guaranteed an NK now, unless we have a doctor or JK here, which would be great.

Which heavily,

heavily

implies you know his alignment. For certain. Besides being a little threatening, that was a scumslip. Like, a real, legitimate scumslip. The only way you'd know his alignment is if you were the informed minority.

He is right, and we did have a doctor, after all.
Which is hilarious, because it's more of a scumslip on his part. I can buy that Fuzzy was just making a point.
But the fact that Goku was so quick to pick up on the VT/Doctor role-drop makes me think that Goku -knew- the alignments and was saying "HAH! You know the alignments! You're scum!," because, honestly, no one else would have called him out on that.
This strikes me the hardest, especially as a moment of either trying to start a wagon on Fuzzy, who may or may not be VT/scum. Regardless of Fuzzy's alignment, Goku slips up here and, furthermore, speaks towards something else that I've been paying a lot of attention to.

Rem was right. Goku buddied with me and I played towards everything he's said. And Goku's been trying to get me to lynch Yoshi/Fuzzy all game.
While this doesn't clear their names, this read, along with the pattern behind the NK's and Nacho's own reads, makes Goku one of my top scum suspects. I'm hesitant, with how gung-ho everyone else seems to be about it, but Rem, Nacho, and Kur0 thought he was scum and now they're all dead.

The question that bugs me now is...
Is Goku scum and he's been knocking out his opponent while relying on me being his town-buddy in lylo?
or was Goku framed by the scum due to the night-killings, since he's such an easy target to lynch?

My answer?

He's scum.
Onto the next.

[Varsoon]

Good reads, Yoshi. I'm currently doing my own ISO of GIF, but that pretty much hits it directly.
I was leaning town for him, but now that I review it, I think I'm going to put him down as town now.
Will discuss this more in my ISO.

((If this posts twice, it's because of weirdness on this computer. I tried posting it earlier and it didn't seem to go through.))

[Varsoon]

GiF, thoughts on my read? Comments?

Varsoon, how do you agree with my read? Is there anything that we have divided opinions on? If so, I want those to be settled

right now

.

I agree with most of the points that you made. I'm halfway done with my ISO on GiF, and he's so obviously town that it's painful.
The only points where I disagree is when you say it is/isn't scummy to do certain things. Scum will do anything to win.
However, GiF doesn't seem to have been the one really heavily pushing any wagons, and his plays today have been incredibly genuine, even if I know he's tunneling the shit out of me.

I'll get more into why I was doubtful in my ISO.

[Varsoon]

Oh. I have a vote on.
UNVOTE:
for now.

That's the thing. You ONLY say something when someone directs something at you.
You're not posting your thoughts, you're only defending yourself.

Nice try. But this is the first time someone talks directly to me.

So is that mean you won't ever talk unless someone talks to you directly?

Skimming over stuff for now and I see mostly a theory discussion. -.-

The post quota things and no-lynch discussion is something I'll have to look over closely.

I like that he takes down his previous vote and calls suspicion on Kur0. With Kur0 confirmed as town, this could be an attempt to begin a case on him, but it is much more like a townie just doing his usual scumhunting than scum pounding a wagon together out of flimsy arguments.

Oops. My bad. "Cheering" is better word to use.
And no I ain't scum.

Double-negative. Clearly means that he is scum. Guess I'm done with this ISO here.
Jokes aside, it's very playful of him to make this right as he came into the game, and it seems out of character for him to scumbluff like this since he hasn't scumbluffed -at all- through the rest of the game. It's geniune, to me.

Now continue with my reads (more like notes now XD).

RY

: post 63 seems town-ish. his post 86 skips the read about ANG, and then immediately votes ANG in post 88 saying "oh I forgot about him. also, he's my biggest scumread." It looks kinda awkward. His post 82 seems like he's just riding the general flow of the game. Oh. He admits that in post 112. In post 148, he points out fuzzy on not telling people fuzzy's change on V's read. Neither did RY at that point. His read changes in post 152 and.... V is in town again suddenly? And that was after Nacho pointing out that RY changed his read too quickly. First town-ish post in Post 216 from him imo. In post 218, he calls Nacho's post 207 as "obvious town post" and calls him a big townread. As far as I can see, I only see post 207 as IC post. In post 272.... uh... where did that Kuror0 vote came from? Post 274 he suddenly decided to "keep on eyes on nacho."

He seems flip-floppy, tends to ride the general flow of the game and stuff. Overall, leaning scum.

Rem

: I've been

stalking him

following some of his games and he seems like he really hates people calling him scum. So far, I see it as a personality stuff. (It's fun to poke him though ) No reads on him so far. Kitie really didn't post much, and it seems like Rem haven't finish his re-read so far. I guess Null for now.

Nacho and Kuror0 left.

P-edit

Note to self: never joke-comment.

Notice that I haven't pushed him further regarding that or even placed a vote on him. I wasn't planning on attacking him with that one silly quote as that would be dumb. I just forgot to unvote at the last post I made, and just a unvote seemed kinda empty so I made a joke post.

Interesting that he makes such note of Nacho and Kur0, but doesn't do as much ISO work on them as he does on Yoshi, here. Perhaps because he planned to NK them anyway? Regardless, I see his ISO/reads as being pretty genuinely town.

Rest of the reads:

Nachomamma8: His post 130 I can't set my mind upon. Few points from there I can see scumhunting going on, but it also seems like he's defending Varsoon and even coaching him. ("you're reacting too strongly. calm.") Like his interrogation on Fuzzy on post 132~139. He seems to ask questions that are not fillers but actually contentful questions. Other than what I pointed out, his play doesn't look scummy to me. He haven't worked on ANG and NS yet. Overall, leaning town.

Kuror0: Didn't do much until Post 201. Seems like the pressure on him was building from post 275. Since post 201, he was most entirely on Fuzzy it seems.

I would like to see his reads so far.

For now, null.

Conclusion: RY is the scummiest.

VOTE: RandomYoshi

Puts his vote on who he sees as scummiest and did a good job so far. I could read this as trying to buddy me by agreeing with my assessment of RY, but, regardless, the entire ISO process he went through as well as his vote placement is very town to me.

Rem? He overreacts when somebody throws suspicion at him. Bit flip-floppy (or wishy-washy however people call it.)and vote parking.

I take his overreaction as his personality/playstyle, but being flip-floppy and vote parking is a scumtell imo.

Notice how he agrees with my "comment" and immediatly land on me after Nacho points me out for it.

Also, his "reaction test" on RY was terrible. Putting somebody in L-1 as "reaction vote" is bit too much. (Even though he unvoted kinda quickly.)

Rem, can I have your reads, please?

Constantly asks for reads, which seems like a pro-town thing to do. Of course, reads also let scum manipulate town into mislynches. However, he never really got someone's reads and was like, "Yeah, let's lynch this scumtell of yours!", so this is more town than not. I like that he calls out the terrible Reaction test and then does one of his own, although it felt REALLY artificial to me at the time.

Reaction tests are done with hope to see certain reaction from the target. If he doesn't know which reaction he hopes to get from the target, why reaction test at the first place? Also, randomly voting someone to L-1 with an excuse of "reaction test" is anti-town at least.

Good points here, and, looking back, it speaks to how genuine his reaction test was. With no previous communication (this was D1), there would be no way for GiF and Yoshi to co-ordinate such a reaction test if they were scumteam. Considering this, as well as the current flow of the game, I can't help but put GiF and Yoshi on the side of town. It pains me to do it, since I've been against Yoshi for so long and because I was seriously considering a GiF/Yoshi scumteam. But, honestly, it's the decision between one of two different scumteams:
Yoshi/GiF, who are active players that seem very pro-town aside from some fluff on the Yoshi end of things (which has gotten WAY better on D3).
OR
Fuzzy/Goku, who I know are manipulating me and I've had suspicions of since they began.

Regardless, I feel like I'm being duped, and the possibility that Yoshi is still scum is there, as he could have seen through the reaction test and made a fake tombstone. Although, to be fair, he only had three minutes to do it.

So what is martyring?

Here are my scumlist:
-Rem (hell you know the reason.)
-Fuzzy (Still haven't done anything to change my read on him since my first read on him :<)
-Goku (This is pretty much PoE)

I don't want to lynch Rem today, though (he can be lynched tomorrow). So that leaves Fuzzy and Goku for my lynch choice today.

I still don't see how NS is scum, so someone will have to enlighten me about it with details and stuff.

Ugh, Fuzzy/Goku, Yoshi/GiF. I feel so caught inbetween.
However, I don't think scum would buddy up the way that Yoshi and GiF have. Fuzzy and Goku have been playing it a lot more safe/distanced that GiF and Yoshi, so, yeah.
Again, I'm stupid for making teams like this. We should consider every individual player, rather than grouping them in such ways.
Overlook nothing.

In conclusion, GuyInFreezer is town. His plays have been town since he began, and I've been hoping to get a scumslip from him since forever ago, but he's been consistently town.

[Varsoon]

Time to do an ISO of Fuzzy, then one of Yoshi.
Dreading it, since they both have so many posts.
Oh well, here goes.

[Varsoon]

Shit, half-way into my ISO on Fuzzy, remembered I have an appointment to keep!
BRB with more ISOs!

[Varsoon]

Sorry about jetting the other day, got sucked up into a load of errands, work, and more--didn't get free until 4 AM, when I went to sleep.
Will continue my reads/ISO's when I get the time.

[Varsoon]

Should have some free time today, I'll get the rest of my ISO's and reads hammered out.

Feel free to shine the illuminating scope of reason unto me, as I deserve your speculation.
It also helps me get way better reads on all of you guys.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Goku

Just got on to check thread when I woke up, but
As town, why would you slam a vote without hearing a defense?
If both scum slam votes on the potential town, town loses.
If you're scum, it's your wincon.
If Goku is scum, then it's a good play, but it's still obtuse to do that on an inactive player who hasn't even made any defense in the last few days.
Please explain your vote to me.

[Varsoon]

I have Goku as strong Scum on my reads. I have GuyInFreezer as strong Town on my reads. While I originally thought that the scumteam was fuzzybutternut/Goku, your Town-feeling is starting to disappear slowly. In other words, my vote is a reaction test.

Figured as much, and Goku is a high scum read for me as well.
I just don't agree with putting down votes in lylo without more content to work with.

We'll see how Goku defends himself when/if he gets back.

[Varsoon]

Sigh. I'm periodically checking the thread to see if anything has developed when I can,

But now that there's going to be another new player, he better just tell us his role PM.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Marcmann2

Oh, man, that was easy.
You enter thread,
Claims I'm scum immediately during Lylo
Puts down a vote.

Chill out and play the game without giving the heaviest scum tells ever.
If I'm wrong on this, boohoo. I don't want to play Lylo with an idiot like you.

[Varsoon]

The best thing is that because I didn't immediately jump at your scum-calling, you started on the one other really active player.
Regardless of alignment, it was your plays that got you hammered.
If you flip town, count this as a learning experience and play towards your win-con instead of blathering like an idiot in lylo.
If your scum, you're transparent and stupid.

[Varsoon]

I don't know why -anyone- would make a role claim during lylo unless they were DEFINITELY that role.
Lying about a PR immediately makes anyone else who might be that PR know you're full of it.
Furthermore, the (usually) only way to know someone is or isn't a PR is to be scum.
It's a dumb play, regardless of alignment.

[Varsoon]

Which is hilarious, seeing as I'm not scum.
Unless he got the idiot cop role, which isn't in our game.

He just was trying to exploit the shaky ground I was on since the quickhammer.
It's the reason that I quickhammered in the first place.
I figured idiots and scum would be quick to point the finger.
But to LIE about being COP in order to do so?
Have some class.

[Varsoon]

Eager to see what he flips.
I hope we get scum this time.

[Varsoon]

If you're not scum, that means Varsoon is scum. Given the situation right now, how is varsoon scum instead of you?

Guess that means fuzzy is scum.

[Varsoon]

Just got in, it's been a hectic couple of days.
Anyway, I expected that Mafia wouldn't kill anyone since no matter who they kill, they lose.
If it was me, then that'd only leave GiF, Yoshi, and Fuzzy. GiF and Yoshi both think each other is town, fuzzy loses this scenario.
If they killed Fuzzy, then it'd leave me, Yoshi, and Gif. I'd lose this scenario.
If they killed GiF, then it'd leave me, Yoshi, and Fuzzy. Since GiF said before night to not lynch Yoshi, it'd be between fuzzy and me.
If they killed Yoshi, it'd be between Fuzzy, GiF, and me left, and we'd likely target either me or Fuzzy.

But since no one was NK'd, and since I know I'm town, I'm deducing that Fuzzy is scum.
Especially with how poorly he handled being at L-1 today.
VOTE: FuzzyButternut

[Varsoon]

Don't think Yoshi is as scum as I read him before.
I mean, yeah, he's not the best player, or even smart about it.
But we've squeezed both Yoshi and Fuzzy in this game and Fuzzy has been way scummier in his reactions, imo.

[Varsoon]

Aaaah, Let me know if you're scum, GiF.
Because at the last moment I worried you lied about your PR and your jail of Fuzzy just so we'd suspect him since he was an easy target.

[Varsoon]

Nuts.

[Varsoon]

Nah, it was a good play.
It wouldn't have worked if fuzzy didn't freak out every time he got to L-1.

[Varsoon]

I mean, I saw through it the second I dropped him to L-1 and I couldn't take my vote off quick enough.
Ah well.
Hope my next game has less quitters and more active, good players.


Fuzzy, chill, you made bad plays in LYLO, which is just as bad.

[Varsoon]

It's not like I was gonna get lynched today anyway. Your fate was sealed!

Well, you won over Yoshi pretty hard.
And everyone was at either my throat or Fuzzy's,
After writing my post where I deduced that, I figured it was a set up, since we were easy targets.
I made the mistake of trusting you for a second, when you shouldn't trust anyone in this game.

[Varsoon]

Also, it didn't help that I wanted this game to end ASAP anyway.

[Varsoon]

Day 3 PR cc was planned btw.

Well, obviously. The only play you can make that's worth a damn when a scum partner replaces that late is to get towncred when you bust his ass.
It'd probably work even if it was with Goku.

[Varsoon]

With how much I post, I'm sure games will be a bit longer around here for awhile. :3