Newbie 1345: Mafia in a Bind (Game Over)

[frog]

Hi there, I'm frog, just replaced in. It is late so I'll catch up on the thread tomorrow. If you want, throw some questions at me so I can perhaps direct my reading better. Thanks.

[frog]

Alright, I shall start with some general comments on all the players in the game.

Didi: Didi starts the game with a lot of random votes apparently designed to provoke reactions. Although it initially looked odd to me that she'd voted 4 different people in her first 10 posts, I think she was generally trying to scumhunt. Her conversation with Xegarus is interesting because she does manage to provoke a reaction.
Posts 75 and 64 demonstrate that she's pretty calm and she backs up her comments with genuine reasoning. Analysis seems to decline past that point, agrees with Xeg and goes from 'If Mutley isn't mafia I don't know what to think' to 'this feels like town responses' in the space of a few posts with little to no reason given for her doing so. That aside, I'm leaning town on her. More of the early play, less of the recent play, please.
Verdict: Leaning town

MP5: Gets into the game and starts questioning, keeps to his promise of explaining his vote, does a nice job of IC'ing when theslimer was away. I don't like how he quotes a previous game in order to justify a vote in this game. He almost advocates a lynch in #123, before performing an about-face that seems a bit too easy on the justification for me. Contradicts himself in #216 by saying excitement isn't always a scumtell, has some good analysis of Didi but IMO takes it too far to make her look scummy (he calls Didi noncommittal despite the fact that he calls it 'real scumhunting'? I don't follow). Post 265 annoys me but he redeems himself in 291 (which I read all of, by the way) which shows his commitment to the game and some very good scumhunting. Aside from a few instances I don't agree with (and even then they're not scumslips, more actions I don't like in principle), MP5 is a solid townread.

Unvote MP5

Muttley: First of all, wow, 87 posts to go through. Starts by wagoning VooDoo. I'm not sure what to make of this. It looks like RVS but putting a player at L-2 so early looks pretty bad to me, and he follows Xeg blindly. Tells Didi to take the vote off and then criticises her for it; looks pretty bad to me. Doesn't do much, gives 4 people as scum with no explanation, refuses to answer Voodoo's questions, then tries to use this to claim he's town in #130. Says claiming is bad, doesn't contribute anything to town (no reads, no scumhunting, nothing). Votes Xiao because he's rude. In 225 he wants to join MP5's lynch but then says he thinks MP5 is scum? This reads very badly to me. Gets into a statistics debate, possibly to stall for time or to deflect suspicion of his posts. Unvotes later, calls out KingPin and Didi for lurking (yet doesn't vote either), engages in ad hominems (racist, called you a 'her' to annoy you, etc). No substance whatsoever in any of his 87 posts.
Verdict: Scum.

FSnake/Spadille/NicCage: Nice and constructive at the start, answers questions for the newer members, asks for direction from SEs/IC and bandwagons for the hell of it (though gives some justification). He's the first guy I've seen to post a list of reads, which is constructive even if they're all null reads and he doesn't vote. Looks like a young townie to me. Spadille only has three posts, and his second just sees him comment on Xiao ('an interesting reaction', 'Pontius Pilate', etc) without actually providing reasoning. It looks a bit forced, as if he felt like he had to continue in FSnake's line of thinking. Tunnels, tunnels, and tunnels. Fsnake reads as town but Spadille looks like scum to me, so hopefully NicCage will clear it all up. Currently on a null read.

Will post the rest shortly.

[frog]

theslimer: Begins by stating his IC duties and proceeds to ignore them the entire game. He's a bit too relaxed early on and doesn't engage with the game at all until 228. Posts some sensible suggestions before then but does little scumhunting. 228 is an awful post for so many reasons; firstly, theslimer turns every eventuality (claiming PR or VT) into a scumread, asks a lot of rhetorical questions but doesn't answer them with a point; secondly, he forgets his train halfway through, says Mutley is town and scum, then votes him for no given reason three posts later. Ellipses and speculative questions are not scumhunting at all, but it's a good way to feign being town. The post really begs the question 'well, yes, but what does this mean?' but theslimer does not answer this. No substance to his posts, no scumhunting, just jokes and useless speculation, all the while when he's meant to be an IC. Verdict: Scum.

Vote: theslimer

Voodoo Lady: She starts the game late but makes up for it by asking some very good questions early on. She's not fazed by being at L-2 and has a nice mix of lighthearted and serious posts. Pressure votes Mutley and gets massive town points for reminding everyone it is L-1. She's clearly cautious and she wants to use D1 to its full. Has a good memory for what happened earlier in the game and is attentive to what everyone is saying. Keeps things calm, tries to defuse the Mutley/Xiao situation. Overall, strong townread, possible the strongest one yet.
In answer to your question: I can see why you'd think that. He does try to get some questions off, albeit unsuccessfully, and his comments aren't particularly useful. I think he may have just been a bit keen.

Xegarus: Starts off with a wagon which makes him a little suspicious in my eyes, even if it were a joke Mutley does follow him onto it. Some nice play with Mutley, I especially like the fake hammer; Xeg practically carries the game at this point and really pressures Mutley. He answers all the questions directed at him and asks some very good ones of his own. Although I don't agree with him when he says Mutley is town, I respect him for taking a step back and looking at the situation again. Solid townread.

Xiao Long: Urgh the formatting is horrible horrible, thanks for changing it! I'm not sure what to think of him. He starts off very jovial and measured, does some scumhunting in his seventh post but then inexplicably votes MP5. He gets really really angry and rude from about #97 onwards which really contrasts with his earlier behaviour. The posts from about 100-112 are pretty good and he contributes to the town knowledge. His analysis takes a step back during the fake hammer scenario but this may be due to Xeg carrying the game. Apologises for his conduct earlier, then persists with the rudeness. I don't know; I've got a null read on him.

[frog]

Mutley, who is currently your top scumread?

[frog]

My apologies.
OMGUS is 'Oh my God you suck', and refers to a situation where you vote for someone because they've just voted for you.

[frog]

The basics of that is that He's the pull of the town. Everyone pretty much is targeting him and he's practically being nubbish with responces. A few people view it as town, and some don't.
He's playing around just a bit too much and he's finding the game boring. My vote on him was strictly reaction testing to test the reaction of him, and those around it. Seeing how you and Mp5 seem to find that as the perfect opportunity to hop on me for TESTING (which I would like to say is not a crime in this game) a reaction.

No, I don't share everything I'm thinking. I NEVER DO. Iso me, you'll see. Everything I say and do is either for fun or to see something/ analyze what I've seen.

Even though I have a town read on mp5, the way you're simply holding being an IC against me and the way I've said one little thing marks the margin of what scum is.
I may not be the best IC in the world, but I sure as hell am not the worst player. So stop treating this game like a newbie game and come at me with actual evidence besides me withholding logic.

So, to summarise what is relevant from that post:
-At the time of writing the wall you were leaning scum on Mutley
-You quote one of your previous posts, which says that your vote (post #260) wasn't calling Mutley scum in the slightest
-It was a reaction test and you were looking for an OMGUS.

In post #263 you say that you will not give a reason for your vote. In #270 you say that the results of said vote will 'be complex'. You say in the above post that your vote was a reaction test looking for an OMGUS. This doesn't sound particularly complex to me. That said, I'd believe you if it weren't for the fact that you follow up your reaction test vote with posts #279, #282, #287, all of which contain jokes or irrelevant material ('Mutley I will neuter you') which really kill the momentum and renders what little scumhunting you did with that vote null and void. You clearly didn't set out to get a reaction with your vote at all, at least not seriously, judging by the way you follow it up. You say that Mutley was finding the game boring, but with him being easily the most active player in this game, this can hardly be taken as fact. Needless to say I don't believe your explanation.

In the space between your spoiler wall and your vote post you went from leaning scum on Mutley (as you say at the top of 347) to saying your vote 'wasn't me calling him scum in the slightest' (post 293). In other words, you go from suspecting him to not suspecting him. This is suspect in itself, especially since you tell Mutley he's 2 votes away from being lynched in post 270, but where this really rubs me up the wrong way is that this means when you found him scummy you didn't vote him and when you didn't find him scummy you did. That doesn't sit well with me.

I have an issue with your unvote post as well. The justification you give for your unvote is that 'Mutts a bit of a center here so him reacting to my vote would pull in everyone else'. Yet I've already shown that you weren't seriously intending to do that. It is odd that you call Mutt a 'center' considering that, in the posts immediately before yours, the situation seems to be turning more on you than on him. You seem to be using reaction fishing as a get-out-of-jail-free card the moment suspicion comes your way; you did it then and you've done it now.

Finally you strawman both me and MP5 when you say that we're hopping on you 'for TESTING'. I don't believe either of us are doing that? My vote was entirely serious and I want you lynched. I can't speak for MP5 but his vote looked pretty serious to me. You're a great troll, I'll give you that, but claiming that you post 'to analyse what you've seen' is a bit aggrandising on your part. We've had to push you for information and when it came out it didn't fit the facts.

I have, in fact, ISO'ed you and I've read every post you've made. I can in fact see that you withold things, and my issue is that you seem to withold everything. You leave everything open so that it can fit your story later if you need it to. I don't think you're scum from 'one little thing'; it comes from many things, some big and many small. I'm very confident in my read of you. You asked for facts and content, well, here it is.

Your jovial nature seems to have disappeared now. Why is this?

[frog]

Wow, that was longer than I thought.

@NicCage: do you think Xiao's forcefulness is his playstyle or do you think of it as more of a scumtell?
@Mutley, in response to 345: if this is so, can you tell us why you think Didi is scum? Do you have any scumreads that do not rely on inactivity?

[frog]

I have read the interactions between the posts, but as I have not gone through the game as you have I may have a few wrong impressions here and there. If anything in particular is a problem then raise it by all means and I'll look at it further.

[frog]

...
Mutley, did you seriously just hammer theslimer with no claim?

[frog]

You did just hit majority but I'm not sure if your unvote nullifies that... We'll have to wait for Equinox to get here.
Either way that's an awful thing to do, especially just to spite another player. What were you thinking!?

[frog]

I don't want to do anything just yet, at least not before Equinox comes in. Assuming the day isn't over at that point I will join you on the Mutley lynch.

[frog]

Mutley is pretty clearly scum. He read scum to me D1 and has only gotten worse, having quicklynched our cop (then claimed that same PR today) and even admitted he was scum in the post Mac quotes at the top of the page. If it weren't so early in the day I'd claim intent to hammer.

A few questions:

Didi, in your list of reads, you've singled out Mutley as scum (for obvious reasons I gather) but also Mac for the reason that he's been pushing Mutley's lynch so vigorously. Do you think the two could be scumbuddies?

NicCage, if you indeed read Mutley and Xiao the wrong way around, why do you think this happened in the first place?

Mac, what do you think of Didi's post 414?

[frog]

I can't see Mac and Mutely being scum together, not given their current interactions. I understand you have your (in my opinion very unlikely theory), but considering the vehemence with which Mac has been pursuing Mutley I find their coupling unlikely. Xeg read very town to me too.

Scum can only talk during the Night phase. During the day they can't use their Quicktopic or whatever else is used for communication.

Also somebody please take their vote off Mutley so he doesn't hammer himself, we're less than a day into D2 and there's no reason for it to end so early.

[frog]

If you think Mac is suspicious for pushing the lynch, what do you think about Xiao for putting Mutley at L-1 in such a scenario? That looks pretty scummy to me.

[frog]

frog is quite suspicious for me too, prior to Equinox confirming that Mutley had voted slimer, he was quite reluctant to vote Mutley until finding out if Mutley had hammered slimer. I found that quite suspicious, purely because Mutley had already admitted being mafia.

I was right in doing that, since it was unclear whether his post counted as a hammer or not. In retrospect it did and no votes/unvotes after that counted anyway. Should I have voted Mutley at that point?

[frog]

If you think Mac is suspicious for pushing the lynch, what do you think about Xiao for putting Mutley at L-1 in such a scenario? That looks pretty scummy to me.

Also quite suspicious. But Xiao has it going for him that he bickered with Mutley all day 1, and I don't think it would be very intelligent of scum to draw so much attention to eachother, especially if you create such a toxic atmosphere with the other in the thread that the rest will be like 'goddammit let's just lynch one of them and get it over with'. Unless it's some WIFOM (am I using this right?) ploy and that's what they WANT us to think. But unlikely imo.

It isn't unheard of for scumbuddies to bus one another so that one seems cleared in the eyes of the village when the other gets lynched (as happened in my 2nd game on his site), but I agree, the extent to which it was being done meant that both were under the spotlight for a long while, and this means it is unlikely. Without getting into deep WIFOM territory I don't think their interaction was a massive scum plot.

P-edit: @Mac, I suppose not, but then again, did my vote matter if he had already hammered? In a situation where there's a rules issue I'd prefer to be cautious and wait for the mod to get in. Either way, it didn't change anything.

[frog]

The thing I don't get is, you didn't have anything to lose from it. If you voted Mutley after (like I did) then the mod would've just discounted it and moved on - it's not like we would've gained a warning. I kinda get the feeling, if you are scum, you MAY have wanted to wait and see there was a chance for your scumbuddy Mutley to survive the lynch before bussing him if there wasn't a chance.

At that point, assuming that Mutley's hammer did not count, Mutley was at L-1 (L-2, you voted him, then he voted himself). Voting for him would be a hammer without a claim, not something I really advocate. I clearly

did

have a lot to lose by voting Mutley and, potentially, so did the town as well. I don't understand how my unwillingness to hammer without a claim whilst there's a rules issue makes me suspicious? If anything, doesn't the fact that you asked me to hammer Mutley under such circumstances make you look suspicious?

By the way Xiao, I replaced into Kingpin's slot, not Spadille's.

[frog]

I think you'd have had a lot more to gain from voting Mutley, especially considering Slimer flipped cop.

Xiao, you realise nobody except theslimer himself knew he was a cop, right? And how would I have gained anything from voting Mutley, when regardless of whether I did or not theslimer would be lynched anyway?

[frog]

The part where it is quite clearly trolling, as you yourself demonstrate in the post following that one.

Assuming theslimer wasn't lynched:
What part of waiting and having a week left of D1 is scummy?

[frog]

Just to clarify, you're saying that, at the moment of, say, post 387, I'd have been better off changing my vote to Mutley?

[frog]

Ok. Even then, the two options were to hammer Mutley or not to hammer Mutley. The latter meant that we still had a week of D1 left, as I have said, and choosing the latter option did not mean that I couldn't have hammered Mutley in the future, closer to deadline. I don't see why doing this was so bad?

[frog]

When is this proposed unvote? If it was after Mutley's post then, by the time I had got there, he was at L-2 (Mutley and Mac unvoted); i.e not an unsafe place to be. If it is before his hammer post, then I had no chance to, since between my last post and Mutley's hammer post Mac had put him at L-1 and Mutley had hammered.

[frog]

I don't think we're going to get anywhere from this. I maintain that in that situation I didn't want to (potentially) hammer Mutley when we still had a lot of D1 left. If you think it is suspicious that I didn't change my vote, then fine, you're entitled to that view, but I don't think the accusation is valid.

[frog]

Do the counting. Mutley was at L-3 at the top of the page, you vote, then he votes. That's L-1. As for the story, I think both fall under the 'I don't want to just yet' part of my post. I don't like how you're ignoring perfectly valid reasons for not voting and at the end of the day none of it ever happened.

Regardless, we can talk more about this on D3, when Mutley's been lynched and we have more information to go on.

[frog]

I told you to unvote for a reason, Mac, so what possessed you to vote Mutley again? You're the first person that needs examining tomorrow.

[frog]

Alright, it's best to take this stage slow. Lylo's never a good place to be.

My finger of suspicion is on Mac. He's largely responsible for tomorrow's quicklynch, and when we consider that he'd been asked by me and others to take his vote off to prevent a selfhammer he then put it back on with no explanation. Prior to that Mac advocated a quickhammer (that in hindsight didn't matter) back in D1 with all the confusion after Mutley's hammer vote, and then again when we weren't even a day into D2. He also tried to use the act of

not

hammering Mutley as a scumtell in order to influence a quicklynch.

In post 469 he claims for some reason (we're all vanillas, whether we actually are or not) and starts off by defending himself by saying 'scum likely didn't vote', though it is equally (perhaps more so) likely that they were on the wagon. Xiao points out the issues in the post very well anyhow; he's scum but scum are off the wagon?
I don't like Mac's small case on Xiao either. After his most recent post he reads townier to me.
I think the scumteam is Mac/NicCage. Didi is town and has been a townread for me since I replaced in. Xiao I'm leaning town on now.

[frog]

Ok, everyone unvote and slow down.
A lot of us seem to have scumreads on Mac and I agree that he should be lynched, but I'd appreciate some input from Mac as to who he thinks Xiao's supposed scum partner is. After the last few posts Xiao reads very town; why do you suspect him, Mac?

P-edit: Didi, Mac talked about a 'townslip' by you a page back. He thinks you're town. (look at post 470)

[frog]

I don't think having the same two scumreads this phase is unlikely, and as for the town-read thing, check my ISO for my original posts and you'll see I'm just reaffirming my read. The purpose of me stating it was to show the process of elimination; you're a townread, Xiao's a townread, Mac's scum, Nic's null but due to poe he's the second most likely scum in my eyes. These reads aren't me sheeping you at the start of this phase, either; I found Mac scummy yesterday when he was pushing me for Mutley's scumbuddy, and Nic's slot has always been a null tell. Furthermore, we're not really connected; I disagreed with some of your reads D1 and you followed me onto slimer's wagon and not the other way around. I certainly haven't been going out of my way at all.

Are there any more examples you can provide other than the two in your post?

[frog]

I wasn't twisting it, what I meant was that I hadn't buddied you consciously and there have been moments where we've agreed but I didn't sheep you (if that makes sense). I have acted on my own thoughts for the entirety of this game and I haven't 'gone out of [my] way' to follow anybody. Players can agree naturally, you know?

About the reads, if you'll check 336, you'll see that we haven't had the same reads. In fact, on D1, I had more in common with MP5 than with you. I'm not seeing connection as deep or as exclusive as you're implying; you're rather exaggerating the case.

[frog]

Since there's been no quickhammer, we can certify that at least one of Mac and NicCage is scum. One of them should be today's lynch, and I'm leaning on the Mac side.

[frog]

That is scummy, but then again, so is advocating 2 quicklynches, making an awful case on Xiao, and (essentially) quickhammering a few days into D2 despite repeated calls not to vote. You're both scummy, and I wouldn't mind lynching either of you, but you've been far scummier this entire game and you need to die first.

[frog]

Are you going to put up a defence that can't be said by everyone here? You claim VT at the start of the day, you say 'if you lynch me we lose', but everyone can say that at this stage! Why would scum not quicklynch Mutley? Scum could say 'whoops, sorry' as much as you are now. Quicklynching a VT only benefits scum and it is a scum action, don't tell us otherwise.

Argh, honestly, I'm pretty torn. I know Nic's sheeping is ridiculously scummy but you have to ask yourself why no quicklynch happened after Xiao's vote, if we assume you're town. You're right, the individual actions you've undertaken are not as scummy as Nic's vote, but when you take them together I think they are.
Alright, just to get my head round this; what do you think of NicCage's predecessors, and can you find examples of scummy play from Nic on previous days?

[frog]

Now that you mention it, #484's reasoning does look a little forced. I'm going to look at his ISO, I'll post comments shortly.

[frog]

Nic, what do you think of the 'preparing for a quickhammer' accusation by Mac in 505?

[frog]

That's not what I'm saying at all.

If SCUMXIAO encourages HEAVILYSUSPECTEDSCUMBUTSTILLTOWNMAC to vote him,

IF I DID VOTE XIAO, then Xiao could easily manipulate this and say "Look, no quickhammer, Mac is scum, lynch." This would not result in a quickhammer if he was the scum and he would know that and use it to his advantage because I'm so suspect. THIS WOULD GET TOWN ON MY WAGON. Then all he needs is his scumbuddy and scum win. How hard is this for you too grasp?

I didn't vote Xiao because I thought it was a trap.

Last paragraph doesn't even make sense, stop talking shit. That does NOT answer my question of "why would I effectively hammer Mutley if I could've waited for the inevitable to be done by others?"

But it wouldn't, see, because that could also mean that Xiao was scum and you were town. It wouldn't result in a quickhammer if

either

of you were scum, not just if he were scum. You're ignoring half of the situation, but ironically (since you're using this to say you're town), you're focussing on your own scumminess in these scenarios.

You'd hammer Mutley because you didn't want to wait, because you'd attracted attention by claiming I was scum with Mutley, and if you look at the last few posts of D2 you'll see your vote is horribly placed and completely unjustified in your post. Not only that, it came at a moment when your accusation was petering out. This combination of actions is incredibly scummy and you were essentially hammering to stop any discussion occurring (which, likely, would have been about you).
Hammering a townie a few days into D2 is not a town action. Why do you seem to think it is?

Things you've done since D3 started:
-claimed vanilla
-said don't lynch me we'll lose
-started off by saying how scummy Xiao was for asking you to vote him (but it doesn't help scum either? Unless you believe that much in your rather shaky dreamed-up scenario)
-in 478 you go back and sheep the dead Mutley; 'he made perfect sense'. How convenient.
-engaged in complete non-arguments or pushed an argument that has another side that everyone can see (I'm referring to the 'if I vote Xiao he'll use it to say I'm scum' stuff when in practice, this could be the opposite. You claimed that he was seeking to frame you but this is impossible given the either/or situation)
-put forward a massive non-argument in 529 to deflect attention away from your quicklynch of Mutley.

Now tell me which actions can be said by scum or would be done by scum to save his hide. Not a single thing you've done today reads town, except for asking us to wait for you to get back.

Nic's ISO is quite scummy, he's flown under the radar for much of the game but nothing screams awful apart from sheeping Xiao's vote. That said, one difference between him and you is that he's fully explained himself (in a way that can actually be understood without people asking for clarification), and, unlike what you're saying now, it actually makes sense. Spadille was pretty scummy but then he only had 3 posts. Fsnake looked pretty town to me.
I can see the two of you being scum together and you're bussing each other so that when one flips scum the other gets towncred.

@Nic: yes, it makes sense, but not for the point he's trying to make.

[frog]

For scum, no discussion is better than irrelevant discussion, since discussion almost always gets information for the town. We may have been able to root out scum in the time remaining, but as it stands, you denied us that possibility. Don't claim that what we'd have done in two entire weeks of discussion would all have been irrelevant, because chances are a lot of information would have come out.

Yes, Nic, you, Xiao, and Mutley were on the Mutley wagon. What's your point?

[frog]

Yeah, you're not the only one who feels like that.
Did they all need to unvote? Only one person did, you just got there first. You then showed us all that the trust was entirely misplaced.

What concerns me though is that this is coming from the guy who told me I was scummy for not (hypothetically) hammering Mutley D1, now on D3 he's saying that Xiao and Nic not unvoting Mutley is scummy. It's like you're spinning every possibility into a scumtell.

[frog]

It's fact, there's nothing to disagree about. Those are the only 2 possible scenarios.

[frog]

You've heard my thoughts several times today. I'd like to know Xiao's thoughts on you and Nic.

[frog]

Alright, I'll get a few of them up today.

[frog]

I'll get to my ISOs later, but I'd just like to address something first.

If you said he was being slimer why did you vote for him?
You unvoted but you've never explained why you put you vote back on Mutley. Why did you put your vote back on Mutley?
Where's your evidence that Nic wanted a quicklynch? Only one person needed to unvote, L-2 is a safe place. Don't kid us, you know that having everyone take their votes off is unrealistic. Besides, Nic didn't quicklynch. Don't deny you're more responsible than he is.
You'd push for a quicklynch for someone who wasn't scum because you are scum and you wanted limited discussion. Why would town push for a quicklynch? You did not do the town a favour in quicklynching because you robbed us of a day of discussion.
We've answered all your concerns over the past few days but you've not addressed them at all. We've said why scum would quicklynch town, we've said why distractions benefit scum. This should be obvious, but it has been stated. Do us a favour and save us from reiterating again and again the same rebuttals to your same points; read our posts!
Mac's refusal to answer any criticisms makes him look incredibly scummy. The difference between Mac and the rest of us is that we answer to scrutiny; Mac shies away from it and this is part of what makes him scum.

[frog]

But he said he'd hammer himself! That vote came out of nowhere, why did you make it in the first place? The shying away from scrutiny part was most obvious 1/2 pages ago when we both remarked it's like hitting our head against a brick wall.
Note I don't like Nic either, but the arguments you're putting forward are so bad that I can't help but rebutt them!
ISO coming now.

[frog]

Xeg's/Mac's ISO:
Early game RVS play is fine but tries to turn Didi's change of vote into a scumtell by saying only the first vote in RVS is random. Continues jovially and talks about counterstrike, serious play begins in post 50 or so where he starts to scrape with Didi over what 'overdefensiveness' is. In post 73 he says makes a criticism towards Didi for showing his hand too early (yet has previously asked for more information) and says that since that's how he plays he isn't scum. At this point there's nothing much solid, except for a bit of hypocrisy and some borderline scumhunting. He appears to vote Mutley since he failed to deliver on a promise, then criticises him for subjectivity when he's engaged with it himself in the same post (105). After the fake hammer (+points, by the way) he perplexingly follows it up by inexplicably backtracking on Mutley and goes from calling him confscum to conftown. He then replaces out.

Overall, I got the impression Xeg was trying to scumhunt, aside from a few scummy or inexplicable moments he's pro-town. However, in light of Mac's play I can see some scumminess in his actions.

Mac replaces in and almost immediately jumps on theslimer's wagon with no individual reasoning whatsoever (look at 369-372). Sets up a potential WIFOM in 376 (remind you of any recent actions? Like 'why would scum hammer town, makes no sense') After the hammer he turns his attention to Mutley and attempts to use my unwillingness to vote as a scumtell the following day. Calls for a quicklunch numerous times but Didi stops him, apologises for his haste, but he votes Mutley (no explanation given for why his vote is back on Mutley, and he's never explained what happened in the interim that made him put his vote back on) which leads to the quicklynch. He claims VT in his first D3 post and then sheeps the dead Mutley in post 470. He says that Mutley 'made perfect sense' after he ISO'd him (which strikes me as a bit

too

convenient). He says Xiao's asking for a vote is scummy (yet he's asked for mine a few posts above, hypocritical much?). He's continually saying things like 'if you lynch me we'll lose', although scum could just as easily say this. He claims that scum would not quickhammer Mutley and in post 567 he says that 'he did the town a favour', aggrandising his scummy action and making it seem pro-town when it wasn't. He makes a lot out of the misinterpretation of Didi's townslip and has tried to deflect attention away from himself by saying that neither Nic nor Xiao unvoted Mutley and fails to concede that quickhammering is an anti-town thing to do. In 567 he accuses Nic of sheeping his vote on Mutley and 'advocating a quicklynch without saying it' but has posted no evidence for this. At a time when he's scummy for quickhammering he's naming other people on the wagon and saying they're scummy just for being on the wagon, which makes him a hypocrite among other things. In 567 he says that at one point he said 'it was slimer just being slimer' but not only has he never posted this

but why would he vote slimer if he thought he was town

? He expects his apologies to get him out of trouble, and engages in appeals to emotion (posts 540, 567, among others), but there's a disparity between his apologies and his refusal to admit that his actions could be seen as scummy.

Xeg's play was null, but Mac's play has incredibly scummy right through the game. You can quite clearly see the dubious nature of his actions and the fact that so few of them are explained. When scrutiny appears he's just repeated his points rather than addressed the rebuttal (scumMac would hammer Mutley to limit discussion and lynch a townie, we've been through this many times with no reasoning on his part as to why this interpretation is wrong). There's been practically no scumhunting as he's tunneled on Mutley most of the time; there's nothing pro-town to his name. He's my top scumread.

This took a lot longer than I thought so give me a few hours for the next one. In short, Nic is the other scum, and Didi and Xiao are town.

[frog]

Mac we've elready had those reasons out of you and we've That we've had to push so hard is testament to your anti-town behaviour.

@Xiao, awful typo there, well spotted!

[frog]

Incidentally that did happen in my 2nd newbie game, scum tunnelled each other and town thought one was confirmed after the other flipped scum.

[frog]

ISO of NicCage's slot:
Fsnake starts off the game, is immediately cautious when Voodoo's at L-2. Asks some good questions and looks like a genuine newbie (see #58). Posts a list of reads and is generally helpful, only real gripe is that he seems to care a lot about other people's opinions before putting his own through, like he's looking for backup. He replaces out after an exchange with Xiao. He looks towny to me.
Spadille, less so. His only three posts are attacks on Xiao, and he only posts comments 'interesting reaction', 'Pontius Pilate', etc, and does little to explain why the actions are scummy. His attack seems unfocussed and I can't say I like his style. Looks very scummy.
NicCage enters and tries to stop Mutley's trolling and break up the fight between him and Xiao. He posts a few reads and does some analysis. Post 398 is a bit scummy since he switches his vote around for little reason, and when he's not being a bit lurkerish he posts well and asks good questions (look at 359, 449, 451, and more) but at times he just seems to go with the flow and is a bit noncommital (lots of null reads, null comments). He posts little during D2 and D3's vote is the epitome of scumminess. He doesn't interact much with anybody, really, though until today he hadn't conversed with Mac at all; this leads me to believe they could be scumbuddies who tried to distance themselves earlier but are now trying to lynch each other so one appears conftown. I feel like he's answered scrutiny better than Mac but that doesn't change the fact that his D3 play and earlier lurkiness and noncommitance makes him scummy.

I think NicCage is scum, and he and Mac could feasibly be scumbuddies.

[frog]

Prod dodging. Thoughts on Xiao and Didi will come later.

[frog]

Didi's ISO:
Starts off by making two 'random' votes and comes under early pressure from Xeg and deals with it oddly, OMGUSing in 56. Scumhunting starts at around that point and gets progressively better, upon joining the Mutley wagon he seems a bit scummy due to post 124 and the exchange after that is odd too, the unvote looks a little hasty. I am inclined to believe post 214 though as Didi had been trying to scumhunt. Post 75 in particular comes across as very town, where he concedes that votes change and shows that he's willing to stand his ground. Asks some good questions, answers most of not all of the questions that come his way. Looks very town in D2 when he says to delay lynching Mutley and to have more discussion, manages to halt Mac (for a while, at least) and recognises that L-1 is, for Mutley at least, precarious. Only real gripe is the odd theories that he put forward (one requiring daytalk) but that's not really indicative of alignment. Plus what could be a townslip in not realising scum only had nighttalk. D3 he's been all over the place with reads but can be forgiven for it as he was earlier in the game and it is Lylo. Play in terms of questions asked and ideas put forward is much the same. I think Didi's town.

Only Xiao left, comments coming tomorrow probably.

[frog]

Xiao's ISO:
Starts off the game with an incredibly annoying format, which he nicely lays aside later, post 78 looks town as he states that scumtells are not absolute due to meta; he takes into account playstyles in his comments and reads. He's not afraid of having three scumreads, another boost to his credibility and a minor towntell. It looks like he OMGUSes MP5 but he does bring up some good points in doing so. Reacts well under pressure He looks a bit angry and antagonistic at times on D1, and he engages in a livid exchange with Mutley. He does manage to fire off some questions to FSnake, Didi, and MP5 though, so he isn't completely tunneling. We see some general thoughts on D2 and some good questions, and D3 he's been playing very towny, 474 was a good post and he unvoted, demonstrating caution. Since then he's asked for discussion and has given some good thoughts.
Xiao reads town to me.

[frog]

Doing the same as Didi.

[frog]

No, I think he's genuinely torn between the two of you.
Since Mac/Nic are my proposed scumteam I'd follow you on either vote. My read on Mac is stronger (possibly due to suspecting him for longer) so if I had to choose I'd pick Mac. But I don't mind either way.

[frog]

I don't think I have any more to add.

[frog]

Xiao, what are your thoughts now? Mac or NicCage?

[frog]

Just to note, there is a concert tomorrow that I am involved in, so I will not be able to get on here for deadline. If I do not hear from Xiao within the next two hours (when I must leave) I will put down a vote. I am not sure for whom yet; I shall decide that in two hour's time.

[frog]

If anyone else is on: Mac, Nic, Didi: is there anything more you want to add.

[frog]

What we need to know is who you're going to vote for.

[frog]

Ok, I can be on for the next hour or so.

[frog]

I'm not waiting for his vote, I want to know his final thoughts on the matter. Maybe he might sway me one way. You are both scumreads of mine and I can see the cases for both of you.

That said, I must leave now.

vote: mac

Mac has been scummier throughout the game, and after reading through the thread and looking at interactions between you and other players, especially the lynched, I've come to the conclusion that you are my more solid scumread.

It is up to you which one goes, Xiao. Mac has been scummier in my opinion, but Nic is worthy of being lynched too.

Sorry if I've made any errors, i am phoneposting.

[frog]

Good morning, Xiao and Mac.

So, one scum down, one to go. After yesterday's exchange Mac is confirmed scum. Xiao is confirmed town; if either of Mac or Nic were town then Xiao would have hammered them yesterday, which leaves Mac as the last scum. Combined with the fact that he was a scumread of mine yesterday, my vote today is an easy one.

Vote: Mac

Aside from all the points I brought up yesterday, the interactions between Nic and Mac point towards them as the scumteam. I shall go into greater detail tomorrow when I have the time to analyse all their interactions.
What happens today rests on you again, Xiao.

[frog]

With reference to Mac's 671:

Ask yourself, why keep the conftown alive? Unless he suspects the townie and not the scum? Obviously this is WIFOM and thus can't be trusted but Didi thought I was town and was possibly scummy himself: he is dead. Xiao thinks I'm scum and is conftown and you are still alive.

This is WIFOM, as you have admitted. The other side of the coin is that Mac left conftown alive in order to implicate me. WIFOM only benefits scum, so it is suspect that Mac is bringing this up. The fact that he says 'it can't be trusted' but is trying to pass it off as a legitimate point anyway should cause alarm bells to start ringing in your head.

So surely the point of yesterday, if me and Nic were scumbuddies, would be for me to get lynched and Nic to get superb towncred and win scum the game? Nope, no it wasn't, because I put up a fight and got him lynched. Why? Because I'm town.

I completely disagree. With both of you as scum, it wouldn't matter which one died as the other would seem like conftown. You did put up a fight, I agree, however with such a plan as this both sides

must

put up a good fight otherwise it looks a little suspect. If you'd have been lynched yesterday, Nic could say exactly the same thing today and try to use it to prove he's town. If anything, this strengthens the argument that you two were bussing each other so that one would get cleared for next day's LyLo.

There are two key points concerning your very self Xiao that the scum have done here:

1) Nic sheeped your vote onto me; scum trying to win the game.

I have no arguments with this. What Mac means is that Nic tried to quickhammer with his scumbuddy, but this statement fits my proposition that it was a convenient time to start the bussing strategy. The time was the best time to vote and cause chaos, and it did.

2) frog tried to wait for your vote to see if he could hammer me and win. he tried to cover this up with "waiting for your thoughts" but I've caught him out.

This is quite clearly a misrep. I said 'what we need to know is who you're going to vote for' which, frankly, is not logically equivalent to 'I'm waiting for your vote'. Asking for such knowledge is not scummy; Didi had done it on the previous page ('I want to know where Xiao and frog stand atm') and flipped town. In fact, asking people who they would vote for was fairly commonplace in D3 and is not in itself any indication of alignment.
Furthermore, the premise of his argument is flawed. If I were scum, it didn't matter whether I hammered or not as long as town was lynched. I could be first on the wagon, second on the wagon, third, it would make no difference. In fact, at the end of D3 there was no need for scum to ask who you were planning to vote for (note that Mac and Nic were the only two players who didn't ask for such information on D3. Coincidence? I think not). Mac presumes that it is necessary for scum to hammer to win, which it isn't. I don't see how his point is valid at all.

So the information Mac's putting forward is mostly WIFOM with bits of theory that don't quite match up with the situation (and some of it actually strengthens my side of the argument). Take this as you will, but Mac is clearly the scum in this scenario.

[frog]

If I vote to lynch Nic, who would follow my lead?

If I vote to lynch Mac, who would follow my lead?

I want to know where Xiao and frog stand atm

This looks like pretty much the same thing to me.

I'll say it again, I was not waiting for his vote, I was waiting for his thoughts on the matter. I did not at any point ask him to vote. My intention should be clear as it came after post 648 where I say 'Xiao, what are your thoughts now?'. As I've said, my statement and what you think my statement means are not logically equivalent, so it's hardly a lie.
Why not place it on you immediately? Because there was still (limited, granted) time for discussion, which is what I was asking for.

[frog]

It's not the same thing. That looks like he's asking who people find to be more scummy out of the two of us; again he's asking people's opinions.

Right, except here the opinion he's asking for is 'who would follow me if I voted either of these players', i.e, if I voted Mac, who would follow me, if I voted Nic, who would follow me, which means, in essence, who are Xiao and Frog going to vote for? This is precisely what I was asking by my comment. I wanted to know his thoughts regarding who he would be voting, i.e, what I want to know is who you will vote for.

I don't know how I can make this any clearer. 'What we need to know is who you're going to vote for' is not the same as 'we need your vote'. One asks for an opinion, one asks for a vote.

As for how it is 'even worse', I don't understand your point.

So you weren't waiting for his thoughts because he intended to post them; further proof you are lying and wanted to know if you could win yesterday by voting me.

How does this prove I am lying? What part of him intending to post his thoughts means I couldn't have been waiting for them?

This poorly explained misrep has gone on long enough. I know what I meant by my comment, I have repeated it several times, and Mac has given no explanation for why the two statements are the same. If you read it that way, Mac, then that's fine, I can't control how you read things, but it should be clear by now that my intended meaning is not the same one that you've got out of it.

[frog]

Alright, time to look at the interactions between Mac and Nic.

Mac's intro post doesn't involve much, but Nic is absent from his initial list of reads. I find it odd that Mac is using my null tells on Nic as a scumtell considerung that we have post 426 where he says he's scum. And after that, there's nothing. Literally, there is no mention of Nic again until after your unvote. This is pretty odd given two entire days of interaction. Furthermore, Nic barely mentions Mac at all either; aside from asking one question (which he repeats) on D2, there's little to no interaction between them until after your unvote.
Now, if we assume that their plan was to bus each other D3 so one becomes conftown for D4 (giving them an easy LyLo win) then this low level of interaction makes sense. If their interactions managed to fall under the radar (as they have done) then it makes their bussing strategy incredibly easy to execute, since no one can go back and tie them in a knot with what they said on previous days (since they hadn't said anything). You can see this strategy starting in 481, where Nic starts to become suspicious of Mac for little reason. Mac only starts examining Nic after Nic's vote. There is a massive disparity of action between days 1 and 2 and day 3, which is at the very least suspicious and indicates that the two could easily be scumbuddies. I should add that this isn't limited to Mac and Nic. Xegarus had little contact with FSnake, and Spadille did not address Xegarus at all in his time here. Xegarus and FSnake's (limited) discussion was about such matters as RVS and how to pressure people. In other words, these were simple newbie tips he was giving; no analysis was exchanged between the two of them. The interactions between Mac and Nic and their predecessors points towards them as the scumteam.
I will only address Mac's post briefly as I imagine we'll just end up at loggerheads at usual. I'd like to say that Mac fails to explain his points (e.g, why is me saying you and Didi were town buddying? And how is saying someone is scum by poe ridiculous at LyLo when it is in fact the only time poe makes sense, and how does it prove I'm not town?) and naturally I dispute his last paragraph, but as you say discussion on that has gone on long enough. For all Mac criticising me for having a null read on NicCage and on 'fencesitting' but fails to reaiise he did the same until D3. He says that call Nic scum only after his sheep vote but does not admit that he's guilty for this as well. If you want me to reply to more of it, Xiao, I will, but we'll just end up in an 'I'm right' 'no I'm right' situation again.

Ask yourself, why did Mac and Nic not interact at all for two straight days only to begin bussing each other on the third? It all points towards them being scumbuddies. If they weren't, then there is no reason why they should ignore each other for such a long time. It was in preparation for a bussing plan at LyLo so one of the two would appear town enough to win on the following day.

[frog]

Responses are in order with regards to Mac's paragraphing.

It was just an incidental point, nothing more. I found it something worthy to note. The other players (me, Voodoo, and Didi) you form reads on either later in D1 or on D2. Comments on Nic don't come until much, much later.

Sorry, my comment on 426 should read 'null' not 'scum'. My point was that it was hypocritical of you to criticise me for having Nic as null when you had him as null as well.

You did interact with MP5, you had a very solid read on him from the beginning. I did interact with NicCage (and everyone else, in fact) well before he sheeped Xiao. Don't assume, please do your research.

Why did you ignore him the entire game up to that point? Whether you think the last sentence is stupid or not, it is actually a very valid possibility in this situation. He'd also need a cheap reason to bus you and for you to bus him. Your statement fits my hypothesis as well as it fits yours.

Yeah I had no problem with Xeg's advice, I'm just saying that their only interactions were standard SE tips, and aside from that, they did not talk much with each other. My point wasn't that Xeg was giving scum advice but that they had little game-centred interaction. Also I wasn't in the game when Fsnake and Spadille were, I think that might be a legitimate reason for them not mentioning me? And you say I'm twisting the situation. You've misrepped me again.

It didn't matter which one of you died since the other one would seem conftown regardless. It makes perfect sense for you to nail your scumbuddy.

Xiao, I hope you can see that my hypothesis is valid and backed up by large amounts of evidence throughout the game. It should be clear that the odd interactions between the pair shows that they are scumbuddies. His need to misrep me in order to refute my points shows he's running out of steam. Mac is clearly the scum here.

[frog]

I wil be more active on the weekend also.

[frog]

There's nothing more I have to add. If you have any questions I would be happy to answer them.

[frog]

This is dying on it's arse. It's not good for the town to keep quiet

Finally you and I agree on something! Aside from us ramming our heads against each other I don't know what more there is to say.

[frog]

You will get games on occasion where a player plays especially poorly. It happens, but you shouldn't just dismiss the game. We can still win this.

[frog]

Because Nic and Mac are both scum, it was a perfect opportunity for Nic to leap on Mac and set up a situation where one of them would be lynched so the other would be cleared for D2.

[frog]

Sorry, that should say D4, not D2.

[frog]

How would it have been stupid? I've been in a game where it happened before and scum got a free ride until LyLo two days later. It is a valid tactic, and Mac and Nic could pull it off.
As for it being easier for them to try and lynch you, Mac was the main suspicion at the end of D2 and on D3, so the above plan would be a safer one for scum.

[frog]

They did only have to lynch one more townie, but it's at its most difficult in LyLo. The plan allowed scum player to seem all but confirmed so they can win on the next day. Sheeping your vote was the best opportunity to execute that plan. I don't know what more I can say, since I don't know why scum didn't try a different plan since I'm not scum.

Plus there was no quickhammer, which would seem to indicate that Mac is scum.

[frog]

This is the point I am making. Your example is different from this situation ANYWAY and it doesn't make sense for scumNic to sheep a case on scumMac and not make his own if he wants towncred. He only made his own after he was caught.

You seem to be missing the point again. It didn't matter which one of you was lynched, the other would get insane towncred.
He had been slowly moving your way before he sheeped Xiao, mind you. Look at post 481. Plus your non-interaction on previous days could have been a buold up to the plan, and if you'd been planning it for days then that neatly explains why Nic didn't choose to pursue a different target on D3.

Granted there were only 3 minutes before his unvote, but that's long enough for a quickhammer, don't you think?

[frog]

Actually, Xiao, Nic couldn't possibly have twisted it to say you're scum. If you voted Mac and Nic voted you, then that means that 2 of you/Nic/Mac would be scum; that's a 2/3 chance of losing the game outright. Given that a Nic/Xiao or a Mac/Xiao scumteam looked unlikely by D3, Nic voting you was hardly a valid tactic.

[frog]

Alright, so in this given situation:

Vote count:
Mac (1) - Xiao
Xiao (1) - Nic

Assuming no quickhammers, it does indeed indicate one of you and Nic is scum. Now, assume Mac is town. If this is the case, scum could win by getting one townie on the Xiao wagon and the other partner hammering. TownMac would likely vote Xiao (In LyLo, if you are town and someone votes you, the best bet is to assume they are scum and vote them, since if they're not you get quickhammered anyway, so you don't lose anything) and his partner would hammer. In other words, if Mac is town and Nic is scum, scum wins when Nic votes Xiao.

Now, assume Mac is scum. ScumMac, in order to seem town, should vote Xiao. But wait. When there's no quickhammer it means that two of Xiao/Nic/Mac are scum (you say that it indicates that one of Xiao/Mac/Nic are scum, but if so, then surely Didi or I would have followed through with a plan similar to that illustrated above. Since that wouldn't have happened, 2 of the 3 must be scum). With so much suspicion on Mac on D2 and D3, this is a risky situation at best. But if he doesn't vote, we ask him why he doesn't and he's at a loss to explain himself (since there's literally no reason not to unless you're scum). The game unravels at that point and Nic and Mac lose.

Do you see what I mean? If Mac were town then Nic would have voted you, Mac votes you, and his partner hammers. The fact that this didn't happen shows that Mac is scum.

[frog]

No, if he doesn't vote you after you vote him then that screams scum. If there's no quickhammer in that scenario and he isn't voting you then he is scum. There's no 'seems' since at that point it is definite.

That is one possible way. I honestly don't see what other ways there are that are not absurd. Either way, we're talking about hypotheticals here.
Don't ignore the last bit. The fact that the first option (going after you) wasn't followed proves that Mac is Nic's partner.

[frog]

Have you even read the post?

[frog]

Because the first option is an easy win for scum if Mac is town. If Mac is scum, however, then they cannot pursue that option. Since scum did not pursue that option, Mac is scum.

[frog]

As you said earlier, Nic could easily have pounced on you and tried to get you lynched. This wouldn't have been hard, if we assume Mac is town (since at the time he suspected you and after that vote he'd have likely gone for you). If Mac votes Xiao then Nic's partner hammers for the win. If Mac is not town then we get into that messsy situation I described earlier, where at least one of you/Nic/Mac is scum and people question why two people pounced on the same guy and there's no quickhammer (or, if mac refuses to vote, he's asked 'why?' since if you're town and voted in Lylo then voting the person who has voted you is the correct play, and he's at a loss to explain himself).

Since scum did not take this seemingly easy win, which would have been taken if Mac were town, it points towards Mac being scum.

[frog]

lol.

I wasn't talking about scum sheeping Xiao, I was talking about how scum didn't try to get Xiao lynched.

It's not difficult to work out how hard you are trying to misrep me. Sadlt, it's not working.

[frog]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your last question? The two situations are different. For Mac voting Nic, Mac could have done that as scum or town. In the proposed situation, townMac has no problem with voting but scumMac does (as when there's no hammer things start to look bleak). The difference here being that he and Nic are on the same wagon and there's no hammer, which is a more tenuous situation that two people voting each other in LyLo with no quickhammer.

[frog]

No, I am not doing anything of the sort. I am saying that, if Nic voted Xiao, scumyou would be in a bad position.

[frog]

Hi, I was asked to engage in this hypothetical scenario. I don't like examining what didn't happen any more than you do.

I have put forward my view, that you and Nic are partners and bussing each other so the other becomes clear for the next day. I have shown that Nic not going for the seemingly easy Xiao lynch hints that Mac is his partner. These are very valid possibilities. Yours is also a possibility (not a 'fact' as we do not know your alignment), and it is Xiao who has to judge them. I've made my case for mine, you've made your case for yours.

[frog]

And yet, if I were scum, it would be far less risky to go for you rather than Mac. Again, I can't explain Nic's actions as I am not Nic, but it should be clear by now that Mac is the scum.

[frog]

Perhaps since you'd just voted in LyLo, and, as you have admitted, you were acting in a scummy manner at the start of D3?

[frog]

We've been through this before, the entirety of the last page was discussing this hypothetical scenario. Let's not go full circle when the answer is a click away.

[frog]

Town wins.

[frog]

Agreeing with Mac here. I was so clearly scum on D4 and flipping a coin is not the way to solve LyLo.

[frog]

Also agreeing with Equinox, three weeks is good and all but spinning it out for as long as we did only to end it on a coin flip had the effect of making the game incredibly boring in its latter stages. D3 could have ended a week before it did and D4 could have been sorted in a matter of real life days. Water under the bridge, anyway, since this was a fun game overall and the people in it were excellent.

Props to Mac for not getting really angry (as I would have) in remaining in LyLo for three weeks with a guy who is practically confscum and who is spouting nonsense and getting away with it!

[frog]

Don't worry about it, I should have been on the ball. The two of us can count this one as a win, I think we played well enough