Gears of War Mafia - ( Game Over! )

[Messiah]

vote: CryoNudist

ObvScum. Tried to lynch me in the signup thread.

[Messiah]

Mac and Mastin are probably town. Mastin is town for the hilarious WIFOM of claiming miller in a game with me. Not going to say much else on that right now. Bork seems town too as does Arcangel, but those are lesser reads.

ANG is still scum.

P-edit: Also lol at mastin. I feel bad for you but only a little : P

This post gives me the impression that you honestly have no reason for calling me scum. Why not make a case instead of just naming me as your only person in the "not a town read" pile?

This is a scum post.

vote: ANG

[Messiah]

The usage of meta in this case was actually really fucking terrible.

[Messiah]

As for the "there is no way town says that" why don't you read me in D1 of Reign of Flame, where I got speed-mislynched because I said something that "only scum says".

This is exactly why I voted for you, and your demand for me to "rationalize" my vote is the same shit. Town doesn't see a vote on them on page 4 and demand a

case

. On page

4

. and then respond to every subsequent vote with crap like "Is this real life? Look how distressed I am! I have no idea what's going on! You better show me why I'm scum so I can defend myself!"

[Messiah]

-It's got some names on it that I distrust.

This sounds like something that would be worth expounding on.

Or you could continue speculating about multiball and flavor six hours into the game, whatever you think is more useful.

[Messiah]

Stop ninjaing me god damn it.

[Messiah]

1)The "this is exactly why I voted for you" doesn't even make sense. I cited a previous game where basically the exact same thing happened and I flipped town, and you're saying that's exactly why you voted me.
2)You argue that it's too early (via page numbers) for town to get upset about a vote on them, yet simultaneously argue that your vote is totally legitimate.
2b)You emphasize so strongly the specific page number and don't even cite the correct page.
3)You proceed to call me scummy for questioning the shitvotes I have on me.

1.) I was obviously referring to the "town doesn't say that" part, which is why I then proceeded to start the next sentence with "Town doesn't..."
2.) I

almost

see your point. Your reaction to your wagon has been awful all around, mostly down to the way you demanded everyone present a case so you can defend yourself. You're trying to make a distinction between that and "You can't PROVE I'm scum!" but I don't see one, at all, even a little. The fact that it was so early in the game just made it worse, as if you somehow expected AP to be giving you cases to pick apart on page 4. (And yes, post 90 was on page 4. Go check.)
3.) I think you reacted to them in a way that appeared more scum than town, but nice try twisting it to sound better.

--
The Goat is probably town, and the votes on him are stupid. I feel like he would be a lot more appeasing in this situation if he were scum. He admitted to having skimmed the thread before voting when he could have just said he saw the thread was up and just quickly voted before dinner because he remembered that's what you're supposed to do in post 230. I also think the way he explains that people's problem with his late random vote is "[their] problem, not [his]" like in post 275 reads as more townish in this situation too, for the same reason.

mastin and Ms Marangal can be scum. Would definitely vote them.

ANG still reads as scum for the reasons I've previously stated, and I don't like the way he's continued only focusing on his attackers and responding to direct questions. In post 181 he states that GIF and I could be scum on his wagon, but offers absolutely no insight into his thoughts there. I would write something about the hypocrisy there, but it's self-evident so etc.

[Messiah]

Hey, I've spent about half the time since my last post in a hospital bed. I'll try to catch up soonish.

[Messiah]

If you think Majiffy actually believes what he says, Slandaar, why is he scum? In your reads post you listed him as town. Searching for mentions of Majiffy in your iso it looks like that suspicion manifested itself rather suddenly.

[Messiah]

'Cause she's scum and she's not pleased with me catching her not voting.

Also,
VOTE: Ms.M.

I don't like this bit of suspicion at all. It comes off as contriving a reason to vote and look like you're scumhunting when in reality you're picking at a playstyle quirk. What good does this do if it

is

her playstyle as you were discussing with her in 869/870? And if you didn't believe her when she said as much why didn't you go check?

[Messiah]

She claimed a power role.

[Messiah]

If you think Majiffy actually believes what he says, Slandaar, why is he scum? In your reads post you listed him as town. Searching for mentions of Majiffy in your iso it looks like that suspicion manifested itself rather suddenly.

[Messiah]

vote: Slandaar

[Messiah]

Those are seriously the worst "cases" I've ever seen, Slandaar. Is there a reason your main method of casting suspicion on other players has been twisting their motivations to portray them in the way that suits your narrative the best in the face of the obvious?

--

I actually see the point AP is trying to make w/r/t bork's reads wall and I kind of agree with it. I find it hard to believe that everyone getting in his face about it has such a hard time with the concept.

Speaking of AP, he seems really genuinely frustrated/upset and out of his mind at this game. He's very likely town.

[Messiah]

The KoC and Majiffy case posts just above us were the ones I was actually referencing. It's nice to see that you chose the PirateCat one, though. You clearly know the other two aren't defensible.

[Messiah]

Why is it you said all my cases were bad

Those

are seriously the worst "cases" I've ever seen

Yeah, no. I also think it's pretty clear from the reasoning I gave as to why the cases were bad that I wasn't talking about the PirateCat case, which is a decent contradiction to point out. I also never thought too poorly of your Cryo case. Does that mean your exchanges and push on Majiffy and KoC aren't really fucking terrible? No.

[Messiah]

he started the game like that. he is literally jumping on anybody who questions him. it is one of the reasons why this half of the hydra has been so sus of him.

That's kind of why it seems so genuine to me though, I see a natural progression into the insanity starting right from the beginning. He started out slowly becoming more upset that mastin wasn't townreading him, and I know they're buddies and they hydra and mod together and whatever, and then it escalated from there after Majiffy and Nero(?) started to attack him when he jumped on Cryo's wagon.

It all just seems really genuinely emotional rather than a scummy panic thing.

[Messiah]

Yeah, no. I also think it's pretty clear from the reasoning I gave as to why the cases were bad that I wasn't talking about the PirateCat case, which is a decent contradiction to point out. I also never thought too poorly of your Cryo case. Does that mean your exchanges and push on Majiffy and KoC aren't really fucking terrible? No.

I don't think it was clear at all in fact I think you are not telling the truth.

But whatever.

Explain the KoC one then; he is arguing a fallacy isn't a fallacy when it clearly is?

Good luck.

KoC was being intentionally cagey in his replies to you, but it was pretty obvious to me and probably everyone else what he meant.

You accused him of being scum several times and he was laughing you off because you never gave any reasoning, and then you somehow turned that around on him by claiming that he was asserting that he "can't be scum because there's no case," which is an incredibly extreme distortion of what was actually going on.

[Messiah]

Sorry for not responding to your question, mollie, but I have class in four minutes now. I'll try to get to that soonish.

[Messiah]

also @ messiah

what do you think about the exchanges between marangala and goat boy.

let me explain what I was seeing:

to me it looked like goat boy was a deer caught in headlights by a scummate whom he thought was being dumb. he was all ready to go after her but then she soft claimed and then he was like wtf. and he has been playing the "I don't know what is going on can you teach me how to iso posts again?" ever since. it has been the scummiest exchange the entire game IMO. (mollie's)

what do you think about that. am I being reading too much into it or is there something there.

I understand what you think you're seeing in it, but it feels like extreme overthinking to get to that point to me. I think Goat was just completely baffled by Ms Marangal's assertion at first(which is totally fair, what an idiotic bit of suspicion that was), and then later he got upset about it and shouted at her(post 666). It's really post 666 that sells his genuineness to me, because that's exactly how I feel when I'm town and get complete bullshit pushes on me. As scum you would want to be careful to not overreact and draw attention to yourself by attacking the person that was attacking you, and if they were buddies you wouldn't think he'd freak out when bussing was going on. But yeah, that's 100% exactly how I think I'd want to respond in that situation as town. Marangal looks super shitty for that whole debacle, though, and if she's town then that was just really terrible all the way around.

Ok...read/skimmed 25 pages and ~caught up. Painful. I liked Slandaar's post 1042. I'll stay on PirateCat for now.

Is that all you have to say? Don't you like.. make these huge, impossible to read walls when you're catching up normally?

You accused him of being scum several times and he was laughing you off because you never gave any reasoning, and then you somehow turned that around on him by claiming that he was asserting that he "can't be scum because there's no case," which is an incredibly extreme distortion of what was actually going on.

I never did show the quotes my case came from I suppose.

However, the fact is he was trying to defend from my case by arguing the case I presented was wrong because its not a fallacy which it is. He was arguing the content of my case was wrong; not that he never did what I suggested.

So, if you can explain that and not actually skate the issue please, thanks.

That's not what was happening, and I think you know it. You actually used egregiously out of context pieces of quotes in post 974 to try to hammer your falsified point home, and when KoC responded in 978 you completely, 100% ignored him.

[Messiah]

Hey, I'm sorta here. I don't know that I'll be able to read much of the last ten pages but I'll be available for deadline stuff.

[Messiah]

I don't like that Messiah promised to be here then set V/LA status without announcing in thread. How long does it take to write a post saying V/LA til x for y reason?

I had been V/LA already for two or three days at the time of that post. I'm still V/LA. I'm not going to abandon this game completely at deadline, that's all. I'll be here to claim or switch my vote if necessary.

[Messiah]

Does anyone even know why they want to lynch me? That's an honest question, because if they do you can color me surprised. AP made a big deal about how I have shown a "subconscious need to rationalize [my] vote [on ANG]" earlier in the game, and mastin is of the opinion that every single thing I've ever posted was chock full of obvious scum tells that he doesn't seem to feel obligated to explain to anyone.

What about everyone else? Mac's vote was incredibly shit, with his only previous mentions of me in his iso being how he thought I could be Cryo's scumbuddy but Cryo was more likely to be scum. Coincidentally, this is pretty much exactly what qwints has done as well. These two scumfucks are also trying to paint my V/LA as being scummy somehow, even if it requires them to fabricate the timelime of my posts and when I went V/LA (in qwints' case). Buldermar is voting for me because PirateCat is on the Slandaar wagon(??). And who the fuck knows why PV and Bacde are on me, they sure didn't say so.


If anyone has any doubt in their mind that I'm not a scum-driven Slandaar counter wagon then they're probably dumb as fuck. I would be willing to vote Mac or qwints if I need to, but it's patently god damned obvious that Slandaar is scum at this point.

pedit: Actually, Jal is voting for me. She was kind enough to leave the reason up to our imaginations, though.

[Messiah]

I'm Corporal Tai Kaliso. I'm a watcher. My watch ability is just named "observe."

[Messiah]

I don't think anyone would ever make post 1716 if they actually thought the person they were talking to was scum.

Can we lynch buldermar instead?

[Messiah]

Slandaar, what is the name of your masonizer ability?

[Messiah]

vote: Buldermar

[Messiah]

How exactly is your "negative result" upon trying to masonize scum supposed to work, Slandaar?

[Messiah]

I'm not going to reveal my result yet. Obviously no one should run PirateCat up until I do.

[Messiah]

2 scum teams

What?

[Messiah]

AP was useless as town and had a lot of people that wanted to hang him up. Do the math on that.

[Messiah]

I was going to wait until everyone had posted, but since some people keep browsing the forum and not posting anything (hi Mac!) I'll go ahead:

I watched PirateCat, no one visited them.

vote: Slandaar

This is probably the right move at this point.

[Messiah]

.. Seriously?

[Messiah]

I'm waiting on some confirmation from the mod for right now, but I got results on someone other than the person I actually targeted. Presumably it's some redirecting or bus driving, but the names are close enough to give me a little pause.

[Messiah]

Right, so forget about the bus driver/redirector stuff.

I saw someone visit Buldermar. I don't know that it would be beneficial to reveal who it was though? We have quite a few dead/outed power-roles already, but I'm open to other opinions on the matter.

--

I'd like to lynch Mac. Pretty sure he's scum.

vote: Mac

He was one of the people that shitvoted me to counter the D1 Slandaar wagon, he lurked noticeably (his name being displayed on the bottom as browsing 3-4 times that I saw) during the period of time that Slandaar claimed to receive a negative result on PirateCat and conveniently avoided taking any sides, and then he posted IMMEDIATELY after I outed my watcher result and tried to discredit me for holding the result back.

This is pretty obvious.

[Messiah]

Mala let's lynch Mac.

[Messiah]

It looks like he unvoted because of my result in 1980, but in 1981 I think he was clarifying that he had just noticed the supposed innocent investigation crumb and that is actually why he unvoted. Is that accurate, Buldermar?

[Messiah]

It looks like he unvoted because of my result in 1980, but in 1981 I think he was clarifying that he had just noticed the supposed innocent investigation crumb and that is actually why he unvoted. Is that accurate, Buldermar?

No, both were because of the supposed investigation crumb.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

I don't see the Buldermar!Scum in this. If he wanted a reason to unvote why wouldn't he just use my results? He obviously believed he saw a crumb.

[Messiah]

Also, I've hydra'd with Uber several times before and he was very consistent in neglecting the hydra every time, to some extent. (And so was I, so no offense intended to him obv.)

If that's why people are suspicious of the CG hydra I'd suggest they rethink their reasoning.

[Messiah]

Wait, what has occurred since your vote on PC earlier that made you change your mind Mac?

--

KoC, Viomi is Approximately Normal Guy. That slot is probably scum.

[Messiah]

Is anyone else feeling how terrible Mac's unvote of PC is? And that he didn't even put a vote on anyone else until a little later? I feel like I'm in some bizzarro universe.

Mac, you were suspicious of PC because of the 2 scum team thing, and you're suspicious of Viomi because of the lack of content? Do you have any real scumreads based on anything substantial?

[Messiah]

Can we discuss that all day yesterday Buldermar was trying to downtalk my analysis of the wagons and the gamestate, and trying to weaken any attempt at building a Slandaar wagon again? Yeah? Lets not forget that really obvious bit.

Links?

[Messiah]

Is anyone else feeling how terrible Mac's unvote of PC is? And that he didn't even put a vote on anyone else until a little later? I feel like I'm in some bizzarro universe.

Mac, you were suspicious of PC because of the 2 scum team thing, and you're suspicious of Viomi because of the lack of content? Do you have any real scumreads based on anything substantial?

and you're suspicious of me because... Oh wait. I tore it apart and you ignored it.

Are you missing the part where I vote AN? Because that's a pretty substantial scumread.

I ignored it because it was bullshit, you keep doing scummier and scummier things so I always have something fresh to comment on. You've never explained your AN read as far as I can tell, and I summed up the two that I know you've explained. Feel free to tell us why AN is a substantial scumread.

[Messiah]

dear god

[Messiah]

Hey Marangal, let's lynch Mac! I promise it'll be fun.

[Messiah]

What are your scumreads?

[Messiah]

Fitz voted me earlier in the day and then retracted his scumread later after he went over my iso again and then he said my claim made me seem town, so it didn't seem like he left any room to get on my wagon.

[Messiah]

I don't see any Buldermar scumminess really, you'll have to explain that to me. PirateCat is welcome to share their thoughts there too. Goatperson too, I suppose.

Qwints definitely seems scummy, but I want to leave him alone for now.

As much as I hate to say it, AN is super scumtastic and Mac's point on him earlier was good, and I would absolutely love to lynch Viomi.

[Messiah]

You may recall my crusade to lynch Approximately Normal Guy earlier in the game, Viomi is his slot.

[Messiah]

Can we discuss that all day yesterday Buldermar was trying to downtalk my analysis of the wagons and the gamestate, and trying to weaken any attempt at building a Slandaar wagon again? Yeah? Lets not forget that really obvious bit.

Links?

[Messiah]

I never said you were scum? Ms Marangal asked me how you behaved towards my wagon and I explained it as best as I could recall.

/impromptuphonepost

[Messiah]

Alright then.

vote: Buldermar

[Messiah]

fyi the fact that PirateCat, Ms Marangal, and Majiffy (and to a lesser extent Goatman and Cryo) are on this wagon is a big part of why I'm willing to join it too. That's a force of towniness if I've ever seen one.

[Messiah]

I don't really think that? I shape up when I'm wagoned as town. You look like you're caught in a lie, though. You seemed content to talk about how flawless your scum game is until now.

[Messiah]

I think there's two different interpretations of Buldermar's post going on here. One where he was claiming that Majiffy was pretending that it was a meta read, and one where Buldermar was admitting that he just claimed it was a meta read because he was too lazy to justify it.

The former is my (and everyone else's interpretation, I think) and its backed up by Buldermar's "Maybe I do have the memory of a goldfish" or whatever post, and the latter is Bacde's (likely incorrect) interpretation.

[Messiah]

I should also add that bacde should stop being such a dumbass and pay attention.

[Messiah]

I don't think you would be misunderstanding the meaning of the posts if you had read the rest of Buldermar's posts after that, though. That's what I'm saying. You can only go so long not reading and flailing about with random accusations before it starts to become incredibly annoying.

[Messiah]

I saw no one visit Bacde.

I'm fiercely torn between my desire to lynch Mac for being scum and my desire to lynch Viomi for being an out-and-out troll.

[Messiah]

Also Bacde is obviously town, what the fuck guys.

[Messiah]

I get the feeling that bork and ANG's interactions from early game seem really forced and like noobScum-ANG being awkward with a buddy looking back on it. Post 64 particularly jumps out at me, but pretty much everything about it feels kind of weird. Bork also voted for me with no reasoning during the early game when I was getting run up for my ANG push, and he completely avoids giving any opinion on the reason that people were suspicious of ANG at the time.

I also had forgotten that Viomi was ANG during my last two posts.

vote: Viomi

Totally down for this.

[Messiah]

I'm not "ignoring" you, Mac. I obviously looked into your AN thing if I later went on to say you had made a valid point and that I agreed with it.

To be perfectly honest with you, I didn't respond to your defense because I don't make a habit of conversing a ton with my stronger scumreads, particularly when I see them as bad players.

[Messiah]

Wait so you'd rather lynch a troll than scum?

Or maybe I've thought ANG was obvscum since page 4 of the game and I just made a post explaining why he looks like a flipped scum's buddy. Nice try though.

[Messiah]

I'm on my phone now Nero, sorry. It's post 2197.

Viomi, you

are

ANG. Surprise!

[Messiah]

Do you people really think there's a scum double-voter in a multiball game?

...

Neither do I.

[Messiah]

Mac, qwints, and Messiah:
Compiled cases on why you think I'm scum please?

This is funny because I've already done that and you think you can claim it doesn't exist just because a different player was in your slot at the time. You're obviously scum trying desperately to find something to defend yourself against because you feel like you're being wagoned for the wrong reasons.

[Messiah]

Mac isn't doing my read on him any favors by ignoring his prod and inning for new games.

[Messiah]

I've already pointed out that a lot of bork-ANG interactions look awkward and buddyish, Uber. I agree with you there.

[Messiah]

vote: Majiffy

or, it's a person who's irritated that someone comes in and calls them scum for no good reason, is irritated by said player and doesn't want to play with said player or work with them?

I actually think this was pretty clearly the indignant rage of scum being caught for what they perceived to be the wrong reasons, since when do experienced town players react that way? Any time you're accused of being scum as town you're going to know it was wrong by default. I'm actually really surprised to see you say this, considering.. y'know.

[Messiah]

I saw no-one visit DGB.

vote: AN

[Messiah]

qwints was the one I saw visit Buldermar. I thought he might be some kind of town power role, but I guess not.

Reading through the thread I believed The Goat was the real doctor, but qwints' self-hammer looks like it could be intended to shut that line of questioning down prematurely and most of the pressure was on Goat of the two doctors, so there's that.

Goat, is there any reason you haven't asked the mod if protections will show up in any flavor yourself?

[Messiah]

No DGB, Buldermar was lynched. I saw qwints visit him the night before the day he was lynched (I think).

[Messiah]

What makes you think Rubicon over Goat, Marangal?

[Messiah]

As the real doctor, that is.

And actually, if you think Goat is scum then Rubicon should propbably be in your town pile?

[Messiah]

You think we have something like four missing kills without an actual doctor in there?

[Messiah]

We had two missing kills prior to last night also.

[Messiah]

You. No one targeted you.

[Messiah]

I really don't like 3228.

[Messiah]

Who do you want to lynch, then, Guille?

[Messiah]

I don't know how Rubi survived. But I find it unlikely that there was a roleblocker.

one-shot BP?

Actually, just proving I have a targetable ability of any kind would disprove this.

.. why?

[Messiah]

I claimed Day 1.

[Messiah]

How many votes is Rubicon at?

[Messiah]

vote: Rubicon

[Messiah]

Goat is probably the doctor, Marangal. I'm not sure you're actually reading the game.

No one has claimed to be a BP. Rubicon should've been killed by Guille but he survived somehow.

[Messiah]

It was clear to me that Guille was referring to Marangal when he said the speculation on uneven scumteams was harmful, Nero. Like, really clear. What I do find harmful (and super scummy) is your speculation from today.

Vote: AN

We're lynching this today, unless someone has something special they want to present me with. The Marangal wagon seems like a big pile of shit to me, but given the people that are on it I'm not at all surprised.

[Messiah]

Appeal to Emotion

[Messiah]

I watched you.

[Messiah]

I'm usually pretty unavailable during weekends, but I know I suck this game. I'll give this game some attention over the weekend.

[Messiah]

Taking a look at each night's respective deaths:

Mastin/AP N1
Jal N2
PV/Fitz/bork/PC N3
Bacde N4
No-one N5
<presumably 1 scum team left at this point>
DGB N6
Viomi N7

1. A missing kill N2. As far as possible reasons that kills were stopped at this point in the game, we have Mara's 1-shot BP, an Orange RB and an Orange doc/commuter (potentially).
   
   
2. A missing kill N4. We know Rubi didn't protect or commute here, so the 1-shot BP (potentially) and the RB.
   
   
3. Two missing kills N5. The 1-shot BP (again, potentially) and Rubi's commute.

I think The Goat is essentially confirmed at this point. I refuse to believe that I'd still be alive otherwise, and unless you think I'm an unkillable red-mafia watcher then you probably should too.

Guille is obviously an arsonist/bomber/whatever thing, too, given that there's no other explanation for his kills at all and he correctly nailed Rubicon's ability to prevent NKs on himself. I don't know if he's more likely to be town aligned or third party (balance-wise, 'cause I'm terrible at that). If he is a third party then he poses a pretty significant threat at this point; in this scenario he likely wouldn't only be a 3-shot and would have had the last few nights to prime people and he could potentially blow everyone to hell tonight and win, but that might just be paranoia cropping given that the game seems pretty close in hand now *. Very safe to assume he isn't the last red, in any case.

~~

I'm not feeling overtly preferential between Mac and Nero as the red. I guess I'm leaning Nero right now. I know I've been calling for Mac's head pretty loudly for a lot of this game, but it's starting to feel like he's.. I don't know, actually trying to help I guess? I feel like I felt a strong genuineness from him when he was appealing to me the other day, and that has made me question my scum-read ever since too.

* Scum's only choice has been to kill off players other than myself and Goat (he could

potentially

kill Goat tonight going into LyLo if we mislynch today, though he'd be revealing himself to me if he did and lose any chance of turning me against the other party), and try to pull off something where he turns one of the two players in 3-way LyLo with him against the other. Overthinking and choking in LyLo is far from unheard of, but I think we can pull this off pretty easily, assuming I'm right about Goat/Guille and bar the last scum having a powerrole that turns the game on its head somehow (both of which are insignificantly likely as far as I can tell).

Also,

Mac

, can you share some of Nero's red connections you found that made you decide he's the lynch for today?

[Messiah]

Actually yeah, I really think Guille is town from his posts today.

[Messiah]

its fairly common for scum to have a extra kill or you know, he could just be lying and that it was the scums kill. How is the bolded a towntell?

So the last red scum could potentially have an ability that killed two people in one night in addition to their factional kill? I don't.. really think so. You might technically be right but you're obviously missing the point if you're just picking on that bolded bit.

I don't remember you ever trying to get Mac lynched but I'll read you in ISO.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4853841
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4853843
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4854185
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4854219
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4855174
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4866947
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p4875880

[Messiah]

@messiah; the KoC lynch in particular stands out. his stance refusal to vote KoC and then failure to explain why we shouldn't lynch him the following day was a key point. Not wanting to hammer KoC probably cos he was Godfather... it just makes sense. he keeps focusing on PR's rather than VT's imo.

I'm worried guille is not town either. what is your role name, guille?

These are good points. I really can't get it out of my head that you lurked the thread and avoided commenting on anything during the Slandaar/PC/me thing, though, tbh. That's a pretty damning connection too.

[Messiah]

Given that we're looking for Slandaar's scum buddy, it's hard not to think you might have known what was going on and didn't want to risk taking his side and it blowing up in your face or risk going against him and ruining his play against PC.

[Messiah]

Mac, I'd like to see your full case on us please. I'm a tad bit concerned how Mac was agreeing with me and kind of budding me and then flips a switch and calls me scum the next day.

I saw this again and it occurred to me.. You do realize Mac had you as his primary suspect before yesterday, right?

[Messiah]

Why would Scum-AN keep talking about a KoC mislynch if they would know that KoC Will flip scum.

I'm confused, Guille. Who do you actually think is scum?

[Messiah]

Messiah, can I get a full list of your actions.

PC N1
Bork N2 but was sent results on Buldermar
Bacde N3
DGB N4

After that it's all Goat.

[Messiah]

The only thing I ever saw was qwints at Buldermar. The different result was a mod error, he confused "Bork" with "Buld."

[Messiah]

I intend to make my final-but-maybe-not decision between Nero and Mac and share whatever thoughts I have on everyones cases sometime soon. We all seem to be in agreement that scum is in there.

Tonight, though, I will suffer through my food poisoning in bed. I'll try to skip my weekend V/LA again this weekend hopefully, I don't think the game could handle that without stalling outright at this point.

[Messiah]

I actually really hate a lot of Nero's responses to Mac on the last page and they've done more than enough to push me to vote Nero over Mac here.

To explain some things:

Point 3 in 3569 - Mac mentioned the not contributing thing a bunch of times, and other things similar to it (like wanting the day to end while lurking hard and staying on a single vote wagon or something). Hypocrisy isn't scummy or anything, either, and I don't think it would discredit the point that Mac was making in this case at all even if he were being entirely hypocritical, because the context was different between their two situations. This just feels lazy and deflect-y and I don't like it at all.

3571 is pretty much exactly the same thing. Deflecting via claims of hypocrisy when it doesn't even matter, and regardless of whether or not a hypothetical townie!Mac bought Slandaar's claim at the time isn't really an issue because it's still an important associative tell against Nero. I looked back and checked and where Nero claims in this post that Slandaar hadn't claimed anything yet at that point seems to be totally untrue, unless I'm completely missing something.

vote: Nero

I feel pretty comfortable here.

[Messiah]

I watched you, Goat, yeah.

Mac.. what are you thinking right now? I've been sort of hoping that you were actually town ever since I got that sincere feeling of genuineness from you when you appealed to me the other day, but why aren't you trying to rationalize the situation you're in if you're town and one of Goat and I have to be scum?

I'm going to think on Goat pretty hard for a little while, and in the mean time could you tell me if you think there are any flaws or plausible alternative explanations in the stuff I laid out in 3533 re: Goat being town?

[Messiah]

vote: Mac

[Messiah]

Out of curiosity, why not kill me last night, then frame someone?

It would be suboptimal to reveal to Mac that I was scum by faking a result on him, I suspect. If I do that nothing really changes at all, except I remove any chance of Mac voting wrong. Guille would still think I was town and that Mac was scum. Plus, in my mind, it would be easier for Mac to see you as scum than Guille. Him being confirmed as a killer that had at least 3 kills pretty much removes any chance of him being on a mafia team (probably).

I was kind of hoping for the exact same result that ended up happening too, ie the "Messiah would've framed someone if he were scum." thing. I had a scum partner fakeclaiming watcher(hi Mala!) somewhat recently where that same exact scenario happened in LyLo, so it was in my mind as something that might work well.

Those were my thoughts, anyway.

[Messiah]

I didn't really enjoy the KoC ragequit-and-lynched thing, personally.