Newbie 1351: Hyrule's Under Attack.. Interesting..-GAME OVER

[Mac]

Hello everyone. Nice to see someone familiar faces, and not so familiar faces too in this game.

I've had a brief scan through on my phone and Deras makes me feel uneasy for his blatant OMGUS on Rev and it looked like a bit of a shotgun defence of himself. I think it's worth keeping an eye on, it could be a scum reaction but similarly, it could be newbtown too.

Currently off to work, will have a more indepth look when I get back.

[Mac]

Thoughts:

How is this game three pages already? I'm kinda busy. Have not even read the thread. Thats what I meant. "don't count on me"

What is this? Seriously, 3 pages in 3 days in very considerate since some games go alot faster. If you're going to be like this the whole game, please replace out. If you don't, and carry on like this, it's going to be really detrimental to the town.

In other news, HI GOODMORNING! Good to see you in a non-nightless game this time.

Revenus seems townish, his general posting seems to be the same as the newbie game we just finished.

I also quite like some of Eye guy's posts, they seem towny but other than that, I haven't really caught up that much before work.

Deras is probably my highest scumread just now, because I didn't really like his reaction to Rev's vote. I'd like to hear from him a bit more before voting. And I'm also a bit uneasy with fff's vote on GM but I haven't read into yet but it

seemed

poorly reasoned. Like I said, I'll have to read into it a bit more later.

[Mac]

Sorry guys. I've been really shit in here right now due to work piling up at me at the moment. However, after Monday I have a few days off and will be able to do a proper catch-up and analysis. Until then, I'll try to post as much as time allows.

[Mac]

Time for a bit of a recap from my PoV. But first, my apologies for lack of activity (I like to call it 'lacktivity') lately because I've just been pushed down with work at the moment. I should've went V/LA in hindsight, but all I have to do is work tomorrow then I'm on holiday pretty much.

Reading as I go then:

Spoiler: wall

Hello everyone!

I may be SE, but I suck at mafia, so don't expect too much from me.

Reading back, this seems sooooo anti-town. I seem to keep coming back to Carey at the moment but I just can't help but feel this is laying the foundations for lurking as scum. Or poor 'town' play later, and justifying it with "look, I said I suck!" Maybe I'm just being paranoid. But he hasn't helped with his lack of presence in the thread so far (Pot. Kettle. Black. I know. I'm working on it.)

I thought the meaning of my posts was pretty clear? Maybe that IC hat has fallen in front of your eyes.
What would you say town's job is?

This is a strangely aggressive post. I don't particularly like it much, considering GM said she didn't know what his previous posts meant for her.

I've usually hit enter before the typos register.

This strengthens my Townfeels.

What? This is a poor reason to strengthen your town feeling in my opinion, GM. I know it's gut, and I understand why you think that - but I don't think you should use this as a reason to class fferyl as town just yet. Or let it strengthen your town feel. Because that sorta line can just as easily be slipped in by scum as it could be by town.

Aaah At3 seems to be sorta on the same track as me in 48. The way I see it is you were to scumslip hard later on, you can always point back and point out how you already said you had a new keyboard. Just check your posts, man. If you slip later on because of this keyboard and we mislynch you (assuming you are town here and making a newb slip) it obviously won't be beneficial to us (yeah, Captain Obvious, I know.)

I haven't posted more because I'm not actually sure what kind of behaviour is scummy or not on the first day, specially with all the random stuff that flies around, and I haven't gotten any reads on anyone.

Alarm bells going off now. Justifying your active lurking with "I don't know what kindof behaviour is scummy" is worrying, mainly because if you were town, you wouldn't particularly care if you were scummy because you'd know you were town. Obviously you wouldn't want to be mislynched but you get my point. There are 56 posts before this and you felt you couldn't get involved in some sort of replying because you didn't know if it was scummy? Being over-cautious has made m feel very uneasy with you.

Really? This is a really bad post. It feels like you're fishing for other people to call Fropome scum, and at the same time, you're saying "well, I haven't found anything really scummy".

If you haven't found any scum tells this early, why mention the overreaction? Is it scummy? Or did you just mention it for kicks?

This is a good point.

Voting for me just because I point out something that sounds weird to me seems like a poor excuse to get a bandwagon going in my opinion.

Vote:Revenus

Ironically, the reason you say Rev is voting you is the

exact

reason you voted him back. I'm not getting particularly good reads from Deras at the moment.

@Revenus: I pointed things out and didn't call them alignment-indicative. Why jump on Deras and not on me?

Another good point, although should Deras flip scum in the future, it's worth noting this down as soft defending Deras.

#68 is another cracking post. Eye Urn looks not only competent but very pro-town for pushing Deras for his scummy behaviour.

Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.

Also. Case or it didn't happen, I don't want you guys to get in the habit of (and keep) voting without any reasoning at all.

You may not want to share ALL your reasoning right now (there are arguments about how it may help Scum, though I personally am for complete transparency at the moment), but at least one reason.

My case is mostly your lack of case for voting Fropome, while indicating you liked Eye's deras case/vote.

You're going after low-haning newb fruit.

Not sure about this, GM feels that a Fropome vote is better than a Deras. That doesn't mean she can only focus on Fropome and not Deras, you know.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Eye Urn


Yeah, AFK for the next 48 hours.

Another post from Carey that made me go "what the hell" - again, what is this?

Nice avatar. Why do dudes put pretty girls in their avatar pic?

Followed by this, completely ignoring the point of AT3's post which was "contribute more" pretty much.

Carey - no content. excuses. OMGUS vote on Eye. He'd be hard pressed to look worse. It's like he's trying to look so bad that players will think "he can't possibly be scum. No scum player would do that - it's too obviously scummy".

Yep, liking this part of your post. Playing VI is sometimes employed by scum: this could be Carey's game plan. Although, that said, I think VI is sometimes part of his townstyle too.

I sense hostility. I admit, it was reckless of me to put it forth so hard.

Putting your ideas forth hard is pro-town. provoking reactions you can evaluate is protown.

This post of yours looks scummy to me. You shouldn't be worried about going after someone "so hard" if you are town.

Very true. Mentioned it above with Deras. Puts AT3 back to a null read for me.

Uhhh that took longer than expected. This game is really fun though so far. Hope these make sense. and I imagine I've been ninja'd about 3 pages or so by now.

I'd like to see GM's case on fferyllt too.

[Mac]

I'm waaaay too tired to comprehend that case. Will have a reread tomorrow/Tuesday have preseny my thoughts.

[Mac]

I'd also like for someone else to compare my first game to this one so far, and see if you agree with GM. I may be the individual least aware of exactly what my scum game consists of, but to me, there is very little resemblance between my play in this game and in that one.

I just skimmed throught that one since it's sunday night and I'm sleepy but one thing that caught my eye is how much talkative you are in this game, you have 61 posts already in this one while it's still Day 1, whereas in your scum game you had 127 posts overall (including some after the game ended).

I think that willingness to talk, as long as it's actual discussion which I believe you have, is a protown since a scum talking that much would give themselves more chances to get caught (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

I'll do a more thorough comparison tomorrow.

Question for you Deras: do you think the increase in posts

could be

a change to throw people off the meta=scum argument? I mean, if fferyllt was scum, she'd probably try and play a completely different game to the last time, no?

[Mac]

This game is going to be verrrryy interesting.
Maybe I won't really have to put on my IC hat?

That said, the debating over theory is an interesting study of playstyles but probably not doing much to advance the gamestate. I mean, keep being awesome and all that, but does anyone have any tentative reads?

Fro is talking a lot about being scum, but I have no idea what I think that means.
fffffffff is giving me Townfeels so far.
Revenus is behaving himself. This is interesting.

Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.

Also. Case or it didn't happen, I don't want you guys to get in the habit of (and keep) voting without any reasoning at all.

You may not want to share ALL your reasoning right now (there are arguments about how it may help Scum, though I personally am for complete transparency at the moment), but at least one reason.

My case is mostly your lack of case for voting Fropome, while indicating you liked Eye's deras case/vote.

You're going after low-haning newb fruit.

ff, I read the underlined as you saying GM was attacking newbs. I'm not quite sure what the 'low-hanging' part of it translates as, could you clear that up? But anyway, my point is that the bolded part of GM's post comes across as her saying that pretty much everyone in this game has a decent grasp of mafia as it is and there's no need for her to help people out other than post structuring etc.

It kinda makes your original point redundant, because she's stated that she doesn't feel anyone is a raw newb that, as you put it, she can attack.

On the other hand, your reference to Micro 137 is a bit redundant because the game mechanics were TOTALLY different. I was also scum in that game. It was nightless, meaning we had to drive the town to mislynch two of their own rather than us. She's a very clever player: look at our scum QT where she practically holds my hand as I stumble my way through the first 10 or so pages.

She did make similar styled cases to the one she made on you in that game: one on why I was newbtown and one on why TNE was scum (one more too, but I forget which.) That's worth remembering - but it could also be her general casestyle and playstyle.

Anyway, it's re-read time for the posts I've missed. Bare with me.

[Mac]

@@Mac: Couple things I want to point out real quick before I go back to casebuilding:
1. Soft defending is usually Town IMO.

Sometimes. Sometimes not. It's a null tell but still worth remembering.

[Mac]

@ Mac - thanks for the nightless reminder. That changes things. I originally read that game a few days ago knowing it was nightless. When I reread it this morning, I focused on the iso and didn't remember that.

Yeah, it has to be remembered as nightless.

In an average scum game, you are trying to avoid being lynched and then you can kill off people in a nightkill. In a game of nightless, you are actively trying to push the town into mislynches.

It's not the greatest game for meta'ing

Would you also be able to answer the question I posed in the first paragraph? Please.

[Mac]

I re-read GM's case on ff. Some of it does actually make alot of sense, particularly a) the point of ff saying GM was scummy for attacking the easy targets whilst she herself was attacking them and b) the point about everyone have something that bothered them.

Point B) is pretty interesting because I found myself doing that as scum in 137 in order to seem confused and appear town. It pretty much worked. That's very interesting indeed.

However, some of it does appear to be a case of GM suffering from tunnelvision.

Right now you both seem to be set on each other being scum: lack of involvement from others suggests this could be town v town, and the scum are sitting back. It's highly unlikely it's scum v scum IMO.

[Mac]

You pretty much have Carey as a top scumread, and Deras as null leaning scum. That's similar to what GM has at the moment IIRC.

@Mac again, "low hanging new fruit" - IME newbs drop scummy looking posts no matter what their alignment. IMO it takes time to assess their posts, and for me it comes down to relative tells - is the body of their work pro-town? An occasional scummy sounding clanger is not always a good indicator.

Deras is a good example. He's dropped what I consider some classic objective tells, but he's also showing a protown PoV in the questions he's asking and observations he's making. GM's "attaboy" about Eye's post where he voted Deras was a big ping for me. I know what she's said about the post since then. It doesn't erase what that post looks like standing on its own.

As for this, if the new guys drop scummy tells that's their own fault and not good for the town. It's something that will be learned if they are lynched for it. But to accuse GM of attacking someone for dropping a scummy tell is really terrible, you're basically letting someone off the hook because they are a newb. You said it yourself - your previous scum game you used being a newb to your advantage, didn't you?

[Mac]

But can't you see how your suggestion that GM is going after "low-hanging newb fruit" is incorrect and, if I'm honest, a little anti-town?

I haven't read that game yet, I've no idea why I thought that if that's not the case. Maybe I misrepped what someone said in the thread.

[Mac]

It looks really bad when taken out of context. I believe she's referring to 2/4 scum being in a list talking about a sigbet? But still. it's a poor post and I'd like her to explain it more. I'd also expect a bit better from her than that if I'm honest.

[Mac]

But can't you see how your suggestion that GM is going after "low-hanging newb fruit" is incorrect and, if I'm honest, a little anti-town?

I haven't read that game yet, I've no idea why I thought that if that's not the case. Maybe I misrepped what someone said in the thread.

I have lots of old experience lynching n00b town who posted something scummy. Course corrections ftw. If you think that taking time to assess newbs is antitown, then we have different ideas about what protown is.

Well, that's not what I said. Attacking GM based on her pressuring people for dropping scumtells is anti-town.

[Mac]

But can't you see how your suggestion that GM is going after "low-hanging newb fruit" is incorrect and, if I'm honest, a little anti-town?

I haven't read that game yet, I've no idea why I thought that if that's not the case. Maybe I misrepped what someone said in the thread.

I have lots of old experience lynching n00b town who posted something scummy. Course corrections ftw. If you think that taking time to assess newbs is antitown, then we have different ideas about what protown is.

Well, that's not what I said. Attacking GM based on her pressuring people for dropping scumtells is anti-town.

That's not what she did, and it's not what I did either.

She praised another player for pressuring a n00b about an ancient scumtell that is hardly useful anymore except to identify n00bs IME, while staying away from that bandwagon herself. And that is what I called her on.

She admitted she felt the Fropome vote was better than the Deras vote, but agreed with Eye's case. I genuinely don't see an issue with that, am I being blind?

But then I asked you to clarify 'low-hanging newb fruit;'

@Mac again, "low hanging new fruit" - IME newbs drop scummy looking posts no matter what their alignment. IMO it takes time to assess their posts, and for me it comes down to relative tells - is the body of their work pro-town? An occasional scummy sounding clanger is not always a good indicator.

Deras is a good example. He's dropped what I consider some classic objective tells, but he's also showing a protown PoV in the questions he's asking and observations he's making. GM's "attaboy" about Eye's post where he voted Deras was a big ping for me. I know what she's said about the post since then. It doesn't erase what that post looks like standing on its own.

So your accusation is that GM supported a Deras vote as well as a Fropome vote, and you are taking issue with it? I really don't get it. Are we only allowed one scumread at a time? Why weren't you suspicious of Eye, or anyone else pressing Deras? Can you point me to this "attaboy" post you talk of?

[Mac]

What's different from that to this?

Good stuff, Eye. That is two tentative town reads for me.

[Mac]

What's different from that to this?

Good stuff, Eye. That is two tentative town reads for me.

You mean besides it being about getting a read on Eye? Though I didn't agree with all his analysis

I saw it as coming from a town perspective given what I've learned so far about his mafia background.

The bolded bit can be summarised with "I like the thought process." This is as much an "attaboy" post as GM's.

[Mac]

That is irrelevant. You still saw it coming from a town perspective. You liked the thought process.

[Mac]

They are similar, yes.

[Mac]

In #88 that wasn't your case. We've debunked that and decided the two posts were similar.

VOTE: VOTE: fferyllt

[Mac]

Deras:

84

Vote: Fropome

Was considering Deras, but this one is a bit better IMO.

It was after this post that I voted her.

Mentions the two most n00bish players in the game by their account, votes one and said she considered voting the other.

This is her new reason for voting GM, while her previous reason was for something about low hanging newb fruit. She's also claimed that GM was soft pushing Eye's case against you with an "attaboy" post, when in fact she did the exact same thing.

And Carey:

p-edit: if GM's scum she will know Carey will flip town. It wouldn't really clear her. Are you aware of buddying Deras?

[Mac]

If you look at 259, she indicates it's you she's referring to as being one of the "low-hanging newb fruit" I think.

As a side note, I just discovered [post] tags. How amazingly simple.

[Mac]

Here I am, every night at 10:30pm PDT, exhausted from my day, trying to catch up.

I am not a troll, just a player trying to learn the game.

I am also dysgraphic, so writing content is difficult for me. Eye Urn, please cut me some slack.

Who is the scummiest of the scumreads right now? Not ff, not good morning, not even Eye Urn.

Ravenous maybe for calling me a turd. lol.

I think maybe Deras but I'm not sure yet.

316 was a good post. I wish I could do that.

so,

Unvote
Vote Deras

not sure but you still vote him?

[Mac]

Mac, what is your read on Carey?

@Mac, a quick review of your posts since I asked this question indicates you didn't answer this.

Sorry, totally thought I did. Null-leaning-scum. Needs to post more. Needs more content. Posts like #334 are fucking useless to us all.

In #88 that wasn't your case. We've debunked that and decided the two posts were similar.

VOTE: VOTE: fferyllt

"We've".

Interesting pronoun choice. Who is "We"?

In a quick read back through this, I am seeing your case as "fferyllt accussed GM of going after n00bs but made a post that could also be interpreted as going after n00bs", though both my votes so far have been on experienced players.

If this is true, (and I of course disagree), then you are accusing me of hypocrisy. And your reasoning from there looks like "hypocrisy is scummy".

I'd ask you if you really think a scum player would jump on something a town player did and call it scummy if the scum player was doing the same thing. But, apparently you do think exactly that. Or you are pretending to.

"We've" is just me referring to me debunking it for the town as I thought I had done but yeah, I have to re-read because some people have said I'm misrepping you.

To clarify the hypocrisy, the way I see it goes like this:

Deras - some objectively scummy posts (the OMGUS in particular) but comes off pretty n00b despite playing a few games several years ago. In reading parts of a couple of those games, I got the same sense of earnest effort that I've seen here. Good recovery in his more recent posts, which is also not alignment indicative. Town or scum, he should be doing that.

Looking scummy

goodmorning -

easy targets

and staying away from Carey whose posts have been terrible, and Deras whose bandwagon looked like it had legs there for a bit. Encouragement of the Deras wagon without joining it comes off as subtle manipulation.

Carey - no content. excuses. OMGUS vote on Eye. He'd be hard pressed to look worse. It's like he's trying to look so bad that players will think "he can't possibly be scum. No scum player would do that - it's too obviously scummy".

I clarified "easy target" as Carey and Deras (which could be the exact post of misrep here) and then you name Carey as scummy and Deras as null (but I believe you said null-leaning scum at one point) - this is where I find it a bit hypocritical if you were referring to Carey and Deras as easy targets. Regardless of whether or not you have your vote on experienced players, .it's contradictory. Scum tend to trip over themselves when trying to form a case against a town player (assuming you are scum, GM is town and I'm not misrepping you) - this is what I'm getting at.

Of course. All this hinges on you clarifying who you meant as easy targets.

[Mac]

I'm not sure how you came to Fropome because he's pretty capable from what I've seen.

[Mac]

If you say so, but he's pretty capable and GM appreciated that early on about pretty much everyone here.

Why did you drop your vote from GM?

[Mac]

Oh well, I am SOLD.

[Mac]

Hello AA9!

Posting from a hotel room briefly to check in and say I will catchup later. Although I find the suggestion that roles are not randomized a bit strange.

And AA9 called me a she.

[Mac]

I am here guys. Catch up mode soon

[Mac]

What the hell is #492 Carey? Seriously?

[Mac]

Can you point out these questions ff, apparently I'm shit at finding things.

[Mac]

fferyllt:

Spoiler: wall

Mac, what is your read on Carey?

@Mac, a quick review of your posts since I asked this question indicates you didn't answer this.

Sorry, totally thought I did. Null-leaning-scum. Needs to post more. Needs more content. Posts like #334 are fucking useless to us all.

In #88 that wasn't your case. We've debunked that and decided the two posts were similar.

VOTE: VOTE: fferyllt

"We've".

Interesting pronoun choice. Who is "We"?

In a quick read back through this, I am seeing your case as "fferyllt accussed GM of going after n00bs but made a post that could also be interpreted as going after n00bs", though both my votes so far have been on experienced players.

If this is true, (and I of course disagree), then you are accusing me of hypocrisy. And your reasoning from there looks like "hypocrisy is scummy".

I'd ask you if you really think a scum player would jump on something a town player did and call it scummy if the scum player was doing the same thing. But, apparently you do think exactly that. Or you are pretending to.

"We've" is just me referring to me debunking it for the town as I thought I had done but yeah, I have to re-read because some people have said I'm misrepping you.

To clarify the hypocrisy, the way I see it goes like this:

Deras - some objectively scummy posts (the OMGUS in particular) but comes off pretty n00b despite playing a few games several years ago. In reading parts of a couple of those games, I got the same sense of earnest effort that I've seen here. Good recovery in his more recent posts, which is also not alignment indicative. Town or scum, he should be doing that.

Looking scummy

goodmorning -

easy targets

and staying away from Carey whose posts have been terrible, and Deras whose bandwagon looked like it had legs there for a bit. Encouragement of the Deras wagon without joining it comes off as subtle manipulation.

Carey - no content. excuses. OMGUS vote on Eye. He'd be hard pressed to look worse. It's like he's trying to look so bad that players will think "he can't possibly be scum. No scum player would do that - it's too obviously scummy".

I clarified "easy target" as Carey and Deras (which could be the exact post of misrep here) and then you name Carey as scummy and Deras as null (but I believe you said null-leaning scum at one point) - this is where I find it a bit hypocritical if you were referring to Carey and Deras as easy targets. Regardless of whether or not you have your vote on experienced players, .it's contradictory. Scum tend to trip over themselves when trying to form a case against a town player (assuming you are scum, GM is town and I'm not misrepping you) - this is what I'm getting at.

Of course. All this hinges on you clarifying who you meant as easy targets.

I'm not sure how you came to Fropome because he's pretty capable from what I've seen.

You seem to have dropped trying to continue your case on me. I say Fropome is inexperienced. That is borne out in his own description of his previous games. You counter that he's capable. He's still a n00b and he's still one of two n00b players that GM went after. I was after experienced players at the time you claimed I was doing the same thing GM was doing and voting her for it.

Your case doesn't hold water. And your vote looks pretty iffy, even though it's me saying it.

Spoilered the quote cos it's massive. But like I said, it hinged on who you classed as noob and who you didn't. I wouldn't say capable players are noobs, if they prove themself to be capable.

You did say easy targets which I misinterpreted as Deras and Carey who were on your scumlist, hence the confusion. But you meant Fropome. I can't follow up on a case that is based on a misrep, it wouldn't be right and it wouldn't be town. That was really the only thing that set off my scumbells.

UNVOTE:

Can't decide if Carey deserves a vote or not. What a ridiculous attitude.

[Mac]

Carey why are you flopping about? Like you agree with AA9 saying Rev is leaning scum and then you try and butter him up to get his vote off you and say it's probably townvtown.

[Mac]

That unvote has REALLY disturbed me. Like, I'm pretty sure we don't have any trolls or idiots in this game who will hammer without a claim from Angel. As long as people are aware that an "intent to hammer" is ALWAYS necessary, having Angel at L-1 should be fine and hopefully force some content from her.

Why did you unvote fferyll when no one is gonna hammer prematurely? Especially considering your "suspicions haven't changed."

AA9, get involved or be lynched. I want ff's answer before I consider putting AA9 at L-1

@Deras

- do you mind getting an avatar?

[Mac]

Actually, screw AA9. Ff, still answer please.

VOTE: CareyHammer

That post was literally the pot calling the kettle black and every other color of the rainbow, Carey. Sort it out.

[Mac]

That's why we "intent to hammer" before hammering.

Everyone should do that.

[Mac]

I think Rev's point is that you suggesting that is a bit poor. Like you are looking for a reason to lynch our SEs and ICs by saying one of them could be scum. If that was the case newbie games would be a breeze cos everyone would just vote the SE's and IC's and be guarenteed a scum in there.

@ Mod

- any closer to a Fropome replacement?

[Mac]

Does anyone else find 595 a bit strange?

[Mac]

Is that L-1?

If so, no one should even express an intent to hammer until we have heard from a Carey replacement.

[Mac]

@ ff - WRT #621 I've never voted Arc.

I find it unlikely that AA9 and Carey are scumbuddies but I strongly disagree with the idea that they are definitely not. I know Carey put AA9 at L-1 but he's... well... Carey. We need a replacement in ASAP, and someone who will actually give a damn about the game.

Agree with GM on Eye Urn who seems to be keeping his cards very close to his chest. His vote on AA9 is based on her being more than terrible town because she disregarded "basic probability" which I don't understand - could you expand a bit more please?

I have read back a bit for what it's worth, it stemmed for AA9 feeling once scum was in IC/SE combo because the mod wouldn't let two newbies in. Then Eye Urn came in

and backed her up

with some complicated math which hurt my eyes and said there was a 42% chance of one scum in the three ICs... Kinda looks like he's trying to back up a null point from AA9. But then he goes and votes her.

[Mac]

Yeah, whilst we are one down, we shouldn't be lynching anyone 'til we find a replacement. Putting someone at L-1 is not good either, just because they could be a troll who joins and hammers straight away.

[Mac]

@ Mod

- going to have limited access for a couple of days.

Noted.

[Mac]

I'm baaaack!!

First of all activity seems to have stalled, like alot. New people have to get involved some more.

@ Mod - what's going down with this VisceraEyes chap?

667 - this is quite picky, I had a quick ISO of gm in some scum and some town games (and by quick, I mean Ctrl + F "reads") and whilst she does give more reasons in town games like that, she also gives reasons in scum games too. It's worth remembering, but it's quite a null tell and not particularly lynch worthy (and, that said, nothing meta-related is lynchworthy unless it's seriously bad., so bad I can't even think of an example.)

671 - agree wrt Z painting himself as a townie, it's like he's trying to encourage a case against GM. Don't really like it, GM says "not enough reads" and he tells her to stop attacking a townie. It's not a good reaction.

673 - Can't say I like paragraph one where you focus on only three players. I know you have town reads on a fair amount of people but I personally like to keep an open mind, or try to, throughout a game. Also, you seem pretty certain Angel is scum: should she flip town, who would you be looking at?

681 - this is the truth.

684 - not a good post. The "I AM TOWN" just stands out for me like it's her only defence, and not alot of scumhunting going on as a defence other than accusing herself of being in GM's way. Then she goes onto tell Rev to sheep her.

690- AA9's GM case... is meta-related? nooooooo no no NO. Find something in

this game

that makes GM scummy rather than saying she's acting the same: goodmorning is a good player and I highly doubt she'd repeat her scum play so obviously.

[Mac]

Should've read the ninja's... thanks for making me feel a little stupid, mod!

<3

[Mac]

Who are your other scumreads Z?

I'm not particularly sure I agree with your point about manipulation either, like only talking about one person - how does that stop mafia manipulation? To be honest, it's a bit WIFOMy that you say we shouldn't open it up to mafia manipulation by focusing on more than one person (I think that's what you're getting at); because you yourself are trying to manipulate it into a Z lynch.

Also the point is moot if Z is town: the scum will relax and let the town manipulate themselves into a mislynch.

So yeah, I don't particularly agree and your first couple of posts haven't blown me away at all.

[Mac]

Can you give reasons for lynching GM that are not meta-related?

[Mac]

Not sure what to make of the Z wagon, but it seems to have risen VERY quick. Is it an Angel counterwagon? Can someone summarise the case? I need to re-read a bit too

[Mac]

Not sure what to make of the Z wagon, but it seems to have risen VERY quick. Is it an Angel counterwagon? Can someone summarise the case? I need to re-read a bit too

Wasn't it you who also said that Z was just plastering reasons without content???? Why are you asking us the reasons now...

Pretty sure I have 't? But a quick ISO of me has shown that I addressed 703 to the wrong person completely; should've been Viscera, not Z. I think.

[Mac]

Yep reading Vis' post, it was actually your posts I wasn't blown away by, not Z! My bad.

[Mac]

Like you don't like that I'm sharing only one scumread for now. Neat. You've failed to say why that's suspicious, or IF that's suspicious to you at all. It's cool an e'erything, to have an opinion like that, but unless you think I'm suspicious for it I fail to see how it's relevant.

And you didn't comment on what I said about Z either. I voted for him, and gave reasoning. Do you disagree with my reasoning? Do you have a townread on Z? This is what's important in this conversation, not how many scumreads I provide.

Well for starters, providing ONE scumread means you are tunneling the fuck out of Z and not really focusing on anyone else? And of the three points you make against him, one is because he has a 'scumometer' in all of his posts. It's just...poor. Soft pushing AA9 to vote Z too by threatening to vote her as well, not sure I like it.

If it comes down to it and deadline is upon us, I'll hammer AA for the flip, but for the record I'm against it and think she'll flip town.

Don't like the above quote either; one of the "threatening Angel" posts I feel you are making here. And it feels like you were preparing for her townflip once you hammered her as though you were scum.

I'm not sure what to make of this. Whilst I agree with a couple of your Z points, including this "scumometer" as a reason for a lynch? Weak, it's like you are trying to add anything to add to your argument. Also just a quick question:

My contention with him is in the posts you're "not blown away by".

Nah I caught that - you never really said why you weren't "blown away by" them, but whatever.

You knew I was talking to you in that post yet tried to make it seem like it was Z's posts that I wasn't blown away by?

woah p-edits.

@GM - Z is not Fro.

@VE - still not 100% done. if you could answer this post in the meantime, that would be good.

@AA9 - that is misrepping me, I clearly state I'm not talking about his lack of reads; more his painting himself town/bad reaction.

p-p-edit; my reads on Z isn't town, it's actually leaning scum. But I don't like how fast this wagon has been driven. But I'm working on it.

[Mac]

I'm not sure what to make of fferyll's vote on Z either.

I would compromise lynch Z by the way, but I'm just concerned with the speed of this wagon.

[Mac]

Not sure what to make of the Z wagon, but it seems to have risen VERY quick. Is it an Angel counterwagon? Can someone summarise the case? I need to re-read a bit too

My contention with him is in the posts you're "not blown away by"

. feryl's posts outline her numerous thoughts on his posting. GM has been pushing him pretty steadily the latter part of the day.

It rose quickly because I replaced in and added my support to the wagon and my voice to the push - and because not much was happening in anticipation of me arriving, my voice was kinda dominating town sentiment.

If you have a town-read on the slot, I'd love to hear it. Rev does, but he's content to just vote me uselessly.

Nah I caught that - you never really said why you weren't "blown away by" them, but whatever.

Seriously, how is this a misrep?

[Mac]

Oh that makes sense.

You can see where I got confused, right? That's not a delibrate misrep by any stretch.

[Mac]

Despite all this, I want to hear from ff, who can't let go of her townish Fropome read yet still votes Z, and GM who is voting based on Fro before I plan to even consider a Z vote.

And Z himself, but that much is obvious.

p-edit: of course there was a disclaimer!! my mistake.

UNVOTE:

[Mac]

I agree in that my ONLY problem with the wagon is how GM and AA are willing to hold hands and get this over, but I'm kinda suppressing the anxiety that causes because we're 2 days from the deadline and I think Z is scum.

That, and GM's case is based around Fropome.

[Mac]

Despite all this, I want to hear from ff, who can't let go of her townish Fropome read yet still votes Z, and GM who is voting based on Fro before I plan to even consider a Z vote.

And Z himself, but that much is obvious.

p-edit: of course there was a disclaimer!! my mistake.

UNVOTE:

ok...what more do you want?

Ha, p-edit was to VE I didn't see nor get notification of it. Strange.

I can see your points though, but I don't think you should disregard GM's reads even if you find her scummy.

[Mac]

Hey, I just woke up and there is carnaaage!

Anyway, a quick glance and GM has suddenly decided that I'm not town and possibly worthy of a lynch. Why? I'll catch up more after work.

[Mac]

But what I find most concerning is the fact that GM gives Mac an unequivocal town read because of it.

It's the magic of meta. He's been dropping in the ranks for a while though, as you may see from my more recent readslists and my very recent calling him out for buddying.

Spoiler: Response to Z

I presume that scum wouldn't likely lynch a fellow scum.

IC: Yes they would, it's called bussing and it's extremely common.

Looks like [VE] is fishing a easy lynch and when he didn't get one he switched the target.

If he was looking for an easy lynch the AA lynch was

right there

.

Also

goodmorning

jumped (#721) into lynching party so fast.

No. I have been voting that slot for a full 2 weeks. This is nothing new in the slightest.

Still it looks like She thinks this slot is scummy because how my Fropome played the game. This seems little hollow reason at this stage of came.

Really?

Really?

Still it seem that she is hanging too strongly on her reads about Fropome (#851) and not weighing latest facts more.

Nothing

in your posts is even a

slight

towntell. NOTHING. That's a pretty late fact.

I also agree that using CAPS (#856) makes someone seems frustrated and scummy.

Or it makes them look like they love Capslock. The last game I was in that used THIS MUCH CAPS was Newbie 1326, in which I was Town, and not frustrated.

What comes to goodmornings IC comment (#869) it couldn't be more wrong. By creating possible teams we can eliminate people outside. Using this we can focus more on suspicious players. Also thinking ahead is always good even before the flip. Not saying we shouldn't focus on other tells but scumpairing gives us more possible information as long as logic behind it's valid.

NO. NO.
1. In my role as IC I cannot lie about theory.
2. If the theory I am discussing is subjective, I will preface with "in my opinion".
3. This theory is not subjective. THERE IS NO SITUATION IN WHICH ONE SHOULD SPECULATE ON TEAMS D1 (in this setup).

Goodmorning also didn't give reason (#851) (#857) why she didn't want to see VisceraEyes to get lynched.

Because the fact that I've had a Townread on that slot for the past 30 pages is completely irrelevant.

There really can't be two scums in goodmorning, ArcAngel9 and Z7-852 set.

I don't see why not, though it is unlikely at this point.

There for I must conclude that VisceraEyes and goodmorning must be a team (untill I get more information). Currently I'am not willing to lynch anyone else except one of these two.

Really? Why not me and Mac or AA9 and Rev or yourself and VE? There is not a shred of logic being used here.

@mod

Going to request a replace out because as of late I've been way too busy to keep up with any of my games. Good luck guys!

Well... yay?
Keeping up the trend of ridiculous amounts of replacements is fun?

@Mod: will we get a deadline extension for this?

Well A) I don't think I buddied you and B) I didn't take your buddying accusation seriously because of the </3 that (if I recall correctly) accompanied it.

I'm pretty sure I said "goodmorning is a good player" and you get all uppity about this and accuse me of buddying? Sorry for sharing my opinion I guess. I'll just refer to you as terribad from now on, yeah?

If that's buddying, what is this?

Hello everyone. Nice to see someone familiar faces, and not so familiar faces too in this game.

MAC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT.
EXCITE
_{TRACEY YOU ARE CLEARLY WONDERFULLLLLLLLL}

Furthermore, what exactly are you trying to achieve by chastising Rev replacing out? I'd prefer Rev to replace out if he's unable to keep up and just sporadically posting here and there. Replacements come with the game, nothing can stop them.

Can someone inform me of a VC?

Oh and;

Mainly intended my vote to make VE do a full re-read, because it was patently clear he hadn't. Given that he was pretty much up to bat and we were waiting on him, I can see it coming from a Townie just as much as a scum, especially as he's now admitted my main accusation.

VOTE: goodmorning for Deras. I've voted Libertarian for President (USA) on many occasions interestingly enough.

VOTE: Eye Urn

[Mac]

Not sure how I'm getting votes here... For keeping my votes to myself? For letting the game play out?

Sure, I could've hopped on a Deras wagon early on. Or, I could've let him adjust to the style of play at mafiascum like I had to when I first joined and still am adjusting too. I come from a forum where throwing around your vote looks scummy; you can ISO any of my games to see this "cheerleading" I apparently do. Assuming the cheerleading is talking about cases and not following through.

Obviously our playstyles are totally different where I keep my options/reads open (which I know is sometimes dangerous; more often than not works) and you like to focus on keeping your cards close to your chest. That doesn't make me nor you scum though.

General observations - Long periods of no vote, really sticky vote on me, stayed on Carey for a long time while slot was filled, as though there was nothing more to sort re other players without that replacement. Absent from game thread for long periods. Follows/supports GM frequently, including his vote today on Eye. Misreps? Misunderstandings? Took a long damn time to work out the flaws in his case on me.

It's a tight, cautious game.

Not voting is my playstyle to begin with I'm afraid: I like to analyse things without throwing my vote around most of the time. You can meta that too forst the most part, sometimes I change it if I find something particularly telling.

"sticky vote" - not sure how this means but we've already been over it: I won't push a case based on misreps. I admit my mistakes and move on. This was the case with VE, although I didn't admit my mistakes upon looking back. Thought I did.

"stayed on Carey" - this isn't really telling in my opinion like; thought Carey was stupid town or scum. Couldn't decide which. VE I'm still stuck with.

"Absent from game" - yeah, that's real life. I'm not even gonna apologise cos there's nothing I can do if I can't get on MS, ya know?

"Eye vote" - yeah, I didn't follow GM on this because I pointed out some questions in the post I posed for her. She was a townread until she falsely accused me of buddying so she's null now and I'm waiting for a response. The post I voted Eye for was terrible, I didn't vote him for voting GM like you seem to insinuate but for his reasoning of "for Deras" which was just shit.

Taking a long time on flaws? Sometimes I'm stupid. I'm working on the derp part of my game.

p-edits; I don't have a scum-mate. Is this because your Z wagon has stalled?

Can't say I like you two teaming up, either. What if the other is scum? Think for yourselves. Alsoooo ff:

I can't follow up on a case that is based on a misrep, it wouldn't be right and it wouldn't be town.

If you're town, then by definition what you are doing is being town. The only question is how effective you are being as town.

Not sure what this is. If you want I can show you both my pretty effective town games (if I do say so myself) in my meta? But I'm not sure what you are getting at.

[Mac]

It's what I've carried over onto this site, like it or not. I've learned that sometimes, you can say things that are taken the complete wrong way and be lynched for "scumslips" that don't exist. Even on this site.

I'd point you to the game, but it's still ongoing.

[Mac]

Nope that's not me grasping at all. I'm explaining why I'm pretty cautious.

Hey, I'll get to that. You seem pretty cert on me being scum over nothing, though. I explained why I wasn't cheerleading and how you're lynching me based on playstyle and you haven't even responded to it.

[Mac]

As for Eye, I haven't like him since AA9 joined.

I already stated that he tried to back up AA9's "one scum in IC/2SE because mod didn't randomize" argument with maths and logic which I think his him possibly subtly pushing towards this to get people towards pushing an IC/SE scumhunt and away from him. It felt like it was sorta buddying AA9 too, softpushing her poor argument with probablity and logic. Like I said earlier though, he voted her afterwards which is like a complete chnge and he moves quickly from 'terrible town' to 'scum.'

He offers his vote for GM in #210 and then doesn't vote her until #401 and quickly unvotes with some revelation that needs a reread. he doesn't really explain as such, and then reveals a re-read hasn't actually changed his opinion but clouded it up.

And then there's the second GM vote, "for Deras." Looks like he's using Deras as an excuse to vote GM, then his case comes after GM pushes for it. Why wait? Makes no sense to me.

pedit; I do that as town, playstyle and things, ya know? It's not a part I'm proud of and it's something I'm actively trying to change. Can you point to times where I've been a "cheerleader?"

[Mac]

feryl just did on the last page - from an subjective standpoint considering I was at L-1 yesterday your "suspicion" of me when I entered the thread I also count.

She pointed to a Deras wagon which I explained. ^

Please clarify what you mean in the second sentence?

[Mac]

feryl just did on the last page - from an subjective standpoint considering I was at L-1 yesterday your "suspicion" of me when I entered the thread I also count.

She pointed to a Deras wagon which I explained. ^

Please clarify what you mean in the second sentence?

[Mac]

My vote was already on you.

[Mac]

But that's the entire point of your case.. gone?

I asked you to provide points where I was cheerleading lynches early on, you said ff did (I could only make out Deras which I'd already explained) and you; but my vote was already on you.

What else you got?

[Mac]

Just because you say "Hey it's my playstyle" doesn't excuse what I perceive to be a scummy mindset. You say you're "being cautious" and that's why you're cheerleading bandwagons without voting - but I maintain that "being cautious" is a scummy mindset to have, so that doesn't excuse anything. The entire point of my case isn't "gone" you're just writing it off because you think you've explained yourself satisfactorily and you haven't.

But you say I'm cheerleading and there's one LEGIT bandwagon I may have 'cheered' which wasn't even cheering. I'll be cautious if I wanted. I said yesterday that keeping your cards so close to your chest appears scummy. That's your playstyle. Did I challenge it? Sure I wanted to see where you went with it. but I accepted it.

Not everyone plays mafia the same. I play my way, and you play yours.

[Mac]

But that's the entire point of your case.. gone?

I asked you to provide points where I was cheerleading lynches early on, you said ff did (I could only make out Deras which I'd already explained) and you; but my vote was already on you.

What else you got?

The other observation I made is that in my case you didn't do shit to either get others on your side for the lynch - no effort at persuasive case-building, or to get me sorted. You didn't engage me further. I had to pester you to go back and look at my rebuttal. About 250 posts downthread you finally unvoted me. At that point, it was pretty clear that my wagon wasn't going anywhere.

This is also a bit of a misrep. I didn't really build a case that because I wanted to see your reactions and where you would go with it, but I stated why I voted you. You and I both had a Q and A session together both before and after where people could see where we were both coming from.

Then, contrary to your "250 posts later" I had a couple of busy days and didn't post where I interacted only to give brief thoughts. Then I returned, answered your quote and unvoted based on the fact it all revolved around us not understanding each other.

As much as you want to plaster it as "200 posts later" I only posted in about 3 of them. It's not like I ignored you completely.

[Mac]

Go ahead dude! I'm not saying you should play like me at all. I'm saying I think you're playing a scummy game this game and I want to lynch you. It's not meant to be demeaning or belittling or whatever you're taking this as. It's me wanting to kill you because I think you're on a different team than me. <3

Don't worry, you're wrong.

Like I could show you the wrongness and how I do play this but you'd probably get all angry cos it involves meta and I'm scummy anyway and stuff yeah?

As a side note, I don't find it belittling or whatever, just wrong and narrowminded,

[Mac]

Well you can meta them yourself if you want?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25675 - first newbie game.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25952 - hunt in the dungeon.

other 2 I have completed are scum: one was nightless and one was epicmafia and over after night 2. Feel free to check them out too, but I don't see them being relevant.

don't worry, I'm aware self-meta is meaningless. But I'm saying if you read them it's perfectly acceptable to assume my playstyle is scummy, but it doesn't mean I'm scum. Ya get me?

[Mac]

Nope, I've voted Eye Urn. GM hasn't.

[Mac]

But that's not why I'm voting him...?

[Mac]

Also if I could be bothered, I think I could probably make the same case against you and VE but on a more closer level. Just from memory of what I've been thinking, which is you guys are pretty cosy.

p-edit; 90 or so posts for my first vote to go that wasn't RVS. quite a fair bit of time but that's a personal call init. Was also quite reactionary but yeah, I can see why you wouldn't think that.

[Mac]

It means it's midnight and I'm too tired to trawl through this. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Mac]

Lynching me is so wrong it hurts.

Like if I was lurking my way through the game. Yeah. But I'm not. And 'scummy' though my methods are, they work; those games I linked to show that.

[Mac]

I find it extremely ironic that Mac was opposed to Z's case on GM being based on meta, saying "find me stuff in

this

game that makes GM scummy" and yet, when confronted with behavior I find scummy from

this

game to attack Mac with, all he's got is "But meta!! META!!!"

PEdit:

AA then vote Mac and I promise we'll lynch scum.

But you are attacking my playstyle; I'm saying this is my playstyle, look at X and Y. I also said what I felt about "cheerleading wagons" and how it's not true but pick and choose your points.

Thanks for admitting I'm not scum though.

[Mac]

Well you say "lynch Mac and then we'll lynch scum" which suggests you are scum or dicking about with a townread and policy lynching me? I can't decide.

[Mac]

Your case is based on playstyle; only way I can prove it is with meta.

[Mac]

Well it's not really as though it's a massive mistake to make? You're right though, that's my bad.

[Mac]

I find it extremely ironic that Mac was opposed to Z's case on GM being based on meta, saying "find me stuff in

this

game that makes GM scummy" and yet, when confronted with behavior I find scummy from

this

game to attack Mac with, all he's got is "But meta!! META!!!"

PEdit:
AA then vote Mac and I promise we'll lynch scum.

You are so much more sure about this bandwagon than I am.

Look at his activity spike if you're having doubts. Where was all this activity yesterday when his "top scumread" was being bandwagonned up? Where was he when his "top town-read" was being bandwagonned up? Why spike in activity only when

he's

being run up?

What a shit statement. I can't post when I'm asleep.

[Mac]

It's worth noting that only myself and feryl have voted for Mac - so unless he knows our alignment and what that means with regard to town sentiment, there should be no reason for Mac to be SO concerned about being lynched.

So I'll just lie down to L-1?

[Mac]

It's worth noting that only myself and feryl have voted for Mac - so unless he knows our alignment and what that means with regard to town sentiment, there should be no reason for Mac to be SO concerned about being lynched.

So I'll just lie down to L-1?

Just keep setting up strawmen. OF course I have no problem with you defending yourself. I'm commenting on the stark contrast with your activity yesterday when the VE and GM bandwagons were happening.

Both of these happened in the early hours of the morning, at which time I was fast asleep.

Clearly, my VE/GM wagon alarm didn't go off.

[Mac]

But of course, you COULD be scumhunting. Defending yourself is cool and everything, but if you REALLY want to help town you should be telling us who you think is scum and why. I'm not lynching EU today, who else is suspicious to you?

EU is my main lynch; waiting on GM's replies to an earlier post before I decide if she's worthy of today's lynch.

But still I'm struggling to read you. You're tunneling like fuck on me and now pulling some "he wasn't around for these wagons" claim out to support it, when it's clearly an event that can't be helped.

[Mac]

Your vote is definitely not on scum.

[Mac]

So if that's the case EU then why do you feel like I fit that criteria? Have I not shown that I'm absolutely willing to "follow arguments" and "read what you're saying"? In what way am I less helpful to town than Mac?

Your reasoning makes very little sense in the context of who you're suspicious of. Mac has twice now had to apologize for "misreading" something I've said, and was blatantly misrepresenting my play as soon as I replaced in. How is he "more helpful for town" than someone who rereads a 30+ page game OVERNIGHT for the SOLE PURPOSE of having meaningful conversation regarding the lynch?

You know there is a HUGE difference between simply misunderstanding your posts and blatantly misrepping? Like I could easy stand firm and say nooo you said X, not Y! But I admit my mistakes and move on. You should too.

[Mac]

I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on a Mac lynch versus a GM lynch.

Ugh, just caught up with the last 5 pages or so after I went to sleep last night, ISO'd Mac and had something to eat . Basically, I don't get the feeling that Mac hasn't done anything, sure he's only put 3 votes down (one being the RVS), but I get the feeling that he's been actually discussing things. I'm way more upset about his hypocrisy about meta with dismissing a case about GM based on meta, but basing his own defense purely on meta. Still, I'd rather lynch GM.

Post 90 - GM
Townie post. I can't see scum unvoting someone for that reason - more likely to keep their vote on and call it pressure to post...especially with the current sentiment against lurkers at this point in the game.

This is, it's only a townie post if you (Carey) are not scum, otherwise GM is just trying to protect his scum buddy. This was part of why I was suspicious of your slot.

Do you know where he stands on me presently? Do you know if he actually thinks GM is scum?

After all this discussion, you've moved up a lot in my eyes, null leaning town I'd guess. Basically I was basing my case against you on of your (by your own admittance) weak case on Z, plus GM/Carey interactions that I feel could mean they're (you're?) scumbuddies. Guess I was rubbing some of my GM suspicions down on you/Carey.

At least he did something about it. Deras was just hopping onboard town sentiment. And hopped off just as quickly.

Ditto, I feel GM is scum, and I had a pretty strong feel that you were her buddy. I jumped off because you were both on my scumpile, but GM seems scummier, so I'd rather lynch her, but you were closest to a lynch and we were pretty close to deadline. Once a GM lynch possibility opened up, I switched my vote there.

Overall I'd still rather lynch GM, then AA9. The only one I'd rather not lynch is ff. The others I might compromise depending on how good the argument against them is.

There's no hypocrisy. AA9 attacks GM based on meta, I say make a case based on thread actions. VE attacks me based on pretty much how I play (so that's meta) and I say nope, here's some that proves otherwise.

There's a difference.

[Mac]

So if that's the case EU then why do you feel like I fit that criteria? Have I not shown that I'm absolutely willing to "follow arguments" and "read what you're saying"? In what way am I less helpful to town than Mac?

Your reasoning makes very little sense in the context of who you're suspicious of. Mac has twice now had to apologize for "misreading" something I've said, and was blatantly misrepresenting my play as soon as I replaced in. How is he "more helpful for town" than someone who rereads a 30+ page game OVERNIGHT for the SOLE PURPOSE of having meaningful conversation regarding the lynch?

How am I not helpful to the town?

[Mac]

Don't doubt it; I've already said we should lynch Eye. You are just suffering from some bizarre cross between tunnelvision and policy lynch. What are you going to do when I flip town?

[Mac]

Of course you will. I make a case on Eye and you say "no, try again." It's like you want me to scumhunt within the people you want to lynch, and won't consider cases on anyone else.

Gm - #919 or around that area.

[Mac]

I'm talking about when I made the case. OMG MISREP!

[Mac]

But of course, you COULD be scumhunting. Defending yourself is cool and everything, but if you REALLY want to help town you should be telling us who you think is scum and why. I'm not lynching EU today, who else is suspicious to you?

[Mac]

I also just noticed Z7 has 16 posts. More involvement pleeeaaaase

[Mac]

GoodMorning, why is your vote on Z? if you want to lynch Eye?

Because I would be happy with a lynch on any of {Z, Fe, Mac}.

@Mac: I think the instance was indeed you buddying. It's not necessarily a scumtell, but it's something I want to look at.
The instance you had with me getting excited to see a familiar, competent face is just that: excitement to see a familiar, competent face.

So me saying you're a good player is not a scumtell but you would still be willing to lynch me for it?

What's the difference between me saying you're good and you saying I'm competent?

[Mac]

As for Eye, I haven't like him since AA9 joined.

I already stated that he tried to back up AA9's "one scum in IC/2SE because mod didn't randomize" argument with maths and logic which I think his him possibly subtly pushing towards this to get people towards pushing an IC/SE scumhunt and away from him. It felt like it was sorta buddying AA9 too, softpushing her poor argument with probablity and logic. Like I said earlier though, he voted her afterwards which is like a complete chnge and he moves quickly from 'terrible town' to 'scum.'

He offers his vote for GM in #210 and then doesn't vote her until #401 and quickly unvotes with some revelation that needs a reread. he doesn't really explain as such, and then reveals a re-read hasn't actually changed his opinion but clouded it up.

And then there's the second GM vote, "for Deras." Looks like he's using Deras as an excuse to vote GM, then his case comes after GM pushes for it. Why wait? Makes no sense to me.

pedit; I do that as town, playstyle and things, ya know? It's not a part I'm proud of and it's something I'm actively trying to change. Can you point to times where I've been a "cheerleader?"

Theres my Eye case, wasn't that hard to find, Z

[Mac]

What do you make of his second gm vote?

[Mac]

GoodMorning, why is your vote on Z? if you want to lynch Eye?

Because I would be happy with a lynch on any of {Z, Fe, Mac}.

@Mac: I think the instance was indeed you buddying. It's not necessarily a scumtell, but it's something I want to look at.
The instance you had with me getting excited to see a familiar, competent face is just that: excitement to see a familiar, competent face.

Why not Eye, I thought you were okay lynching him??

Fe = Eye in GMspeak.

Welcome GiF!

[Mac]

GoodMorning, why is your vote on Z? if you want to lynch Eye?

Because I would be happy with a lynch on any of {Z, Fe, Mac}.

@Mac: I think the instance was indeed you buddying. It's not necessarily a scumtell, but it's something I want to look at.
The instance you had with me getting excited to see a familiar, competent face is just that: excitement to see a familiar, competent face.

So me saying you're a good player is not a scumtell but you would still be willing to lynch me for it?

What's the difference between me saying you're good and you saying I'm competent?

Please answer GM!

[Mac]

Timing and situation.

I hope these are reasons for your lack of a reply.

[Mac]

UNVOTE:

Keep reading Guy.

Note it down my vote is effectively on Eye here though, this is to stop any sort of derp hammermove.

[Mac]

Timing and situation.

elaborate plz

He's said it throughout the game, whereas I confined it to early on.

PEDIT

Vote: Fe

L-1.

Think I've said it once, by the way. Feel free to prove me wrong. Either way it's just my opinion of you.

[Mac]

That unvote has REALLY disturbed me. Like, I'm pretty sure we don't have any trolls or idiots in this game who will hammer without a claim from Angel. As long as people are aware that an "intent to hammer" is ALWAYS necessary, having Angel at L-1 should be fine and hopefully force some content from her.

Why did you unvote fferyll when no one is gonna hammer prematurely? Especially considering your "suspicions haven't changed."

AA9, get involved or be lynched. I want ff's answer before I consider putting AA9 at L-1

@Deras

- do you mind getting an avatar?

^^ When I unvoted AA (stating my suspicions had not changed) after Carey put her at L-1.

UNVOTE:

Keep reading Guy.

Note it down my vote is effectively on Eye here though, this is to stop any sort of derp hammermove.

^^ When GM put Eye at L-1.

@Mac is this a change of heart about L-1 strategy? Do we have trolls now that we didn't have then?

Nope. Like, you didn't want her hammered prematurely; I just want to give GiF a chance to voice his matter before someone drops a hammer.

There's a difference between "not wanting to hammer prematurely" (and not actually stating intent to re-vote or such) and unvoting so a replacement can read the 49 pages we've created.

[Mac]

There were something like 32 pages when I replaced in - you didn't seem worried about me "having extra time" when AA was at L-1 I think is her point.

Angel was at L-2 when you replaced in.

[Mac]

And that's not even her point.

[Mac]

UNVOTE: ArcAngel

To get her off L-1. My level of suspicion is unchanged, but I don't want her hammered prematurely.

So this is a different sentiment than you expressed?

Yep.

You don't want AA hammered prematurely (read: right now) for no reason. I don't want Eye hammered so I can give GiF a chance to read and voice his opinions. As soon as he does this, my vote will go back on.

[Mac]

UNVOTE: ArcAngel

To get her off L-1. My level of suspicion is unchanged, but I don't want her hammered prematurely.

So this is a different sentiment than you expressed?

Yep.

You don't want AA hammered prematurely (read: right now) for no reason. I don't want Eye hammered so I can give GiF a chance to read and voice his opinions. As soon as he does this, my vote will go back on.

For no reason?

If that's what you thought then I can see why you didn't like my unvote.

That's what I thought. Although you did say your suspicions haven't changed, you didn't say you would put your vote back later or anything like that. I know you did later obviously, but the intent wasn't there and I didn't see any sign of it being there: at the time, I thought it was possible scum-partners distancing early on and realising that AA could actually be lynched.

That's

what was disturbing.

Now I think you are pretty town-like.

[Mac]

Logically speaking, it

was

implicit (suspicion enough for vote = suspicion enough for vote).

What?

[Mac]

I don't see that personally, because she says that she doesn't want AA hammered at that point. No mention of quickhammers at all at that point.

Anyway, that was then and this is now.

[Mac]

And I'm saying that personally I don't agree that it was implied...

[Mac]

Oh yeah, I'm getting confused about picking up the implication and actually implying. Sorry.

Are you okay? Do you need a paper bag?

This ends here.

[Mac]

I'm going to tell you one thing and one thing only: it's not misreading, it's misunderstanding.

I know your "Mac is scum!" goggles make you think everything I do is scum and blablabla but seriously, misunderstanding like, what, 3/4 posts? It's not that bad.

[Mac]

Objectively speaking I mean - I don't know any of you cats except the mod.

I see.

Hope that doesn't count as another misunderstanding.

[Mac]

I think there are more lynchworthy targets than AA9 tbh. Guy can you expand on your reasoning a little motte?

AA9 who are your scumreads and why?

If it comes close to deadline I'll hammer but I'd rather lynch Eye.

[Mac]

Lynch Z7 and Eye tomorrow please
and Ffery is anti town as fuck
GIF is obvious VI.

GM, you should vote me now, i want you to vote me and prove these idiots how pathetic they are with their game play.

Who do you think you are?

What the fuck is this post?

[Mac]

I'm going to state intent to hammer as a compromise. Does anyone have anything to add/say?

[Mac]

Is that such a good idea though?

Maybe it is. I'm not sure.

[Mac]

Yeah, for you. I meant in general. I personally would rather you read it over time because then you can have a clearer view on a) how people acted during day one and b) how their d1 actions correspond with their d2 actions.

[Mac]

The thoughts you are having occured to me too when Deras was killed, but I've experienced something kinda similar and almost fell victim to it so I think we can leave it for now

[Mac]

I don't think Deras wanted me dead, did he?

Regardless, speculating NK's is stupid in my opinion. I could just as easily accuse you of killing Deras and setting up me/GM/Eye for it, or anyone else in the thread for that matter. Pointless.

[Mac]

What are you asking?

[Mac]

@GM: I see your points. It makes me want to have a conversation with eye now

Mac's post about "hey I could've framed you" post seems odd to me.

"I could've done it but I didn't!" Line of stuff feels like he's deliberately saying it to distance people from thinking that he might do it.

Except that's a bit of a misrep? The entire point of the post was that NK's can be speculated in every manner possible in this game, and that they shouldn't be the point of d2 discussion right now, as VE was trying to point towards.

This includes the fact that my post did not contain nor allude to any of those "quoted" statements you have.

[Mac]

ugh. tried to bold two parts of that post. Your first sentence. Obviously Eye, but you said lynchworthy

targets

. Who else were you thinking about?

Was a generic statement. I was only willing to lynch Eye over AA9

[Mac]

Mhm, I thought for sure he'd have something to say about one of my posts but he didn't. So there's that.

Life shit. Apparently I've completely missed whatever you are meaning here. Feel free to point it out.

[Mac]

What interesting? It's the same in every day life situations.

[Mac]

I don't think Deras wanted me dead, did he?

Regardless, speculating NK's is stupid in my opinion.

I could just as easily accuse you of killing Deras and setting up me/GM/Eye for it, or anyone else in the thread for that matter.

Pointless.

I was talking about this post right here. Especially the bolded part.
Explain to me how I misrep'd you on this bolded part.

None of those say "I could've framed you" nor "I could've done it, but I didn't."

The only thing to do with framing is me saying VE could've framed the three mentioned, but then it's not even an accusation, it's me explaining how I feel NK's can be turned against anyone in the game pretty much.

[Mac]

Z, why is your vote on GM if you find VE to be top of your scumreads?

[Mac]

What's your reasons for finding VE to be scum? And what makes VE/GM a viable scum team?

[Mac]

I'll get to this when I'm on my pc.

Bit offended by the accusation of lurking when AGAIN this thread has exploded overnight. What the fuck am I meant to do with that?

[Mac]

What part of the first sentence did you not understand?

[Mac]

For Mac (#1522) it wasn't just lurking. It that you haven't given any original content since dawn of day 2. And even then it was minimal.

Why didn't you say that in your original post? I'm feeling a bit better than I was when d2 started, I admit I was lurking abit because I tend to make little sense when ill. The thing I am curious about is the way I question why you have VE as scum and possible VE/GM scum team, and you say I'm asking for reads whilst not providing my own. That's me asking you to clarify your reads, and I think there's a difference.

Have to say, I'm a little suspicious about GiF and leaning scum on him now; he hasn't done anything town-like recently. He hopped on some misrep on my post, and then quickly retreated when he realised it wasn't going to work. It kinda looked like forced content, and he went onto admit he wasn't doing much in the game.

Eye still not contributing;

mod, can we get a prod/replacement/somethingtostopusgoingcrazy on Eye?

I don't understand why he has flaked, has he been around elsewhere?

fferyll is pretty much obvtown to me atm.

VE... well I thought he was town until he voted Z7 & then sided with Z7 to vote GM which I found completely baffling. He thinks Z is scum, and then turns around and votes GM with him? Further interesting point, GM calls him out on this and he removes it in the next post.

GM I think is town. her recent post which appreciated that I have some RL shit going down pretty much confirmed it too me that she was playing as objectively as possibly and considering all angles. This could be construed as buddying but her accusation of such towards me earlier makes me think she wouldn't do it back. unless it's some elaborate double bluff, but I think I could possibly recognise areas of her scum game.

And I really don't know where I lie with Z at the moment.

[Mac]

I wouldn't mind either way.

[Mac]

##Vote; Mac

Because I'm getting impatient and Mac is my best guess outside of Eye Urn. Because Eye Urn is set to be replaced, my vote goes on Mac until we get content from replacement.

ha ha ha. you went from Eye>Gm>Mac? Where's your consistency?

[Mac]

And you could probably through Z in there too I think?

[Mac]

GuyInFreeze

have been inactive quite sometime. Unlike Mac (#1533) I don't certainly see this as scummy but at least it's suspicious. He have been posting yesterday but not on this game.

that's not what I said I found scummy about him & is, quite frankly, a big misrep.

[Mac]

Don't hammer yet, I haven't read anything other than the last posts. It's not going to be beneficial to hammer me without letting me post my thoughts. It's also the weekend, i haven't been able to post that much over the board lately.

VOTE: GiF

Because that L-1 vote was proper opportunistic. I guess you only see it if you know I'm town but yeah, thinking he's scum now.

Again, would prefer time to post my thoughts because tomorrow will be lylo so hang fire until tuesday at least.

[Mac]

Out. Weekend, you know?

[Mac]

Coincidence.

Your shitvote was some fine opportunism, though.

[Mac]

Don't hammer yet, I haven't read anything other than the last posts. It's not going to be beneficial to hammer me without letting me post my thoughts. It's also the weekend, i haven't been able to post that much over the board lately.

VOTE: GiF

Because that L-1 vote was proper opportunistic. I guess you only see it if you know I'm town but yeah, thinking he's scum now.

Again, would prefer time to post my thoughts because tomorrow will be lylo so hang fire until tuesday at least.

Which part of this isn't clear that I'm pretty busy? I'm hardly posting around the site in general, right now hence the wait until tuesday. Don't think it's very fair to judge me on that.

[Mac]

Ugh that claim has thrown a spanner in the works. No one hammer, thanks.

[Mac]

...?

[Mac]

Because I was at L-1 at the time and there was intent to hammer?

[Mac]

I think I know my own alignment.

As a side note, those kind of posts really bug me because it's not giving me an insight into what you are thinking.

[Mac]

While I'm here, I will actually apologise for the lack of involvement. It's a bank holiday here so there's been alot of socialising and very little else. I am however free tomorrow aside from painting a shed, so I present my thoughts here.

[Mac]

You are not lynched yet...?

[Mac]

UK.

[Mac]

Tl;dr

There is no way im changing my mind no matter what you claim and i hope everyone else feels the same way

I think posts like this are more than likely to concern any town member.

Sticking with my vote for GiF for now, constantly nitpicking posts and not following up with anything substantial.

[Mac]

The comment was made while I (as in MYSELF) was at L-1 and had an intent to hammer on me. Context, people

[Mac]

I don't think we should ever be lynching a PR with no cc. Not today at least. But then there's a chance theres no JK and scumGM has lucked out.

[Mac]

What?

Because I won't lynch a claimed PR, I'm not lynching scum? Where's the sense in that? What if gm is the jk?

[Mac]

So you are saying that I should vote GM on the basis she could be scum claiming PR and not PR claiming PR, and then further add to this by saying if it's not GM, it's me?

[Mac]

this is me being fucking practical, no one has expressed intent to vote gm after she claimed.

[Mac]

Thats not the fucking point. We have no cc, and I personally have no reason not to believe GM's claim.

[Mac]

Mac do you have a reason not to vote GM aside him claiming pr?

I've had a townread on her for most of d2 now, and I still haven't read some of the last few pages prior to gm's claim right now.

[Mac]

Well I'm not but I'd never lynch a claimed PR with no CC regardless. I made the mistake of hammering our cop in my first newbie game.

[Mac]

I actually wasn't sure about the claim because keep is such a common word BUT i haven't looked at the posts at all. It looks well thought out for a fakeclaim PLUS laying the foundations so early means she would've had to commit to JK regardless of what happened.

[Mac]

Well i haven't seen the posts so don't know how obvious this keep is.

However your "try again" comment is stupid.

[Mac]

You haven't asked for reasons why I thought gm was town, regardless i still don't think we should be lynching a possible PR.

The more you post, the more i wonder if you are scum. some seriously poor posts coming from you if you are town.

[Mac]

Can you stop fucking acting like gm is 100% scum because that helps NO ONE. seriously, you can preach it all you like about me being unwilling to hammer scum but I'm of the opinion that I would be hammering a town PR at the moment. I've hammered despite claims before (see 1334) and been completely fucking wrong so I'm naturally unwilling to hammer ANY claimed PR without some sort of counter claim. Plus we're only hearing from less than half the people about this at the moment.

VOTE: Ineffective

I'm thinking this is the right vote for several reasons.

1)

blatant WIFOM

Spoiler: wall

SHit....

I was crossing my fingers hoping to replace in as scum so i didnt have to read these walls of text

are flips not revealed? There is a blacked out blank where id expect dead players flips to be in roster post.

Everyone give me a summary based on your perspective... But beware of the new summary meta lol http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28238

Then again i read my own slot as scum before i replaced into it and was really hoping it was a scumslot


Sigh

the old "I read myself as scum but I'm not" part is coming into play here

2) blatant rolefishing

Spoiler: wall

Time to role-fish claim GM

I am seriously considering asking for claims in the order of goodmorning>mac>gif>VE>i dont care who goes after that... Does anyone else think this could be appropriate/benificial?

Id have to say that with no claims my vote is best placed on goodmorning for now.... Im gunna look up some completed scumflips.

Pedit the problem with a d3 lylo massclaim is that mafia will almost ceartainly claim pr--- which could mix things up in the right sequence of actual prs. Today a massclaim would almost force mafia to claim VT--- also mafia wont be prepared as to who is claiming what . D3 generally seems apropriate.... But lets say mac is town and isnt lynched - he would be an obvious VTfor not claiming at l-1 and if mafia rolecopped outside of him that leaves mafia with an excelent chance of hitting a PRanyways.


If you genuinely think i am merely rolefishing i have to pause a moment and scofff - i am much more efficient at role-fishing than blatently asking if it would be acceptable to massclaim

Dat first quote... mixed the order up here but it's fucking stupid and even more WIFOM as "I'm not so stupid to be so blatant" - note the "mafia will claim VT today" - trying to hammer GM for claiming jailkeeper.

3) twisting of words

Spoiler: wall

Interesting.

I thouht you said earlier this is your word that is strictly used for taking notes with your ISO using ctrl f and isnt used to show any form of pointing a finger but rather that you find it genuinely interesting and need to look at it later? i believe this was a defensive reaction to someone accusing you of making a subtle push that couldnt easily be traced to you by using the word interesting?

How does a single. Post with nothing but the word interesting help you take notes?

note to self: 175 is interesting

But shit... MAC's. "tomorrow will be lylo" commment really makes a man wonder.

could be an intentionally inserted "i dont have information as to my partners scum status"

could be a towny " i dont view him as scum therefore i have never considered the possibility that tomorrow may not be lylo"

could be a slip from a scum knowing town is being lynched....

OK Mac..... I SaW IT QUOTED ON THE OTHER PaGE aND SaW GMs comment and thought it had merit - my bad - another pitiful attempt at GM spreading seeds of doubt

Ok the first quote is directly replying to gm whose asked about my lylo comment. where I have already it explained it to her. where

GiF was the one who brought it up.

Not GM. This is an attempt to twist it into being GM's fault and trying to spread scuminess for no reason, when in fact it was GiF. This is tunnelling of the highest order.

4) (the big one for me) - threatening me with a lynch

Spoiler: wall

ikeep in mind mac - as evidenced in vote intents all around - this lynch can easily be switched to you--- i dont want to do that. But if this fails i will revert back to voting you most likely

Pedit: i already explained the sense in it.. SCUM WILL CLAIM PR ON THE WAY OUT ALWAYS in this situation

this is the part where I was reading earlier and I thought "hey, that's not fucking right." which kind of town member posts this? it's like threatening me to hammer gm, almost blackmailing me. I don't like it.

Ineffective, stop tunneling gm for a sec. Where do we go if she flips actual jailkeeper? Where do we go if she flips scum?

[Mac]

what the fuck are you talking about. seriously. i'm buddying no one. I'M BEING OBJECTIVE. A TRAIT YOU SEEM TO LACK.

it wasn't a fact because you don't know that it could've happened. also nice attempt to discredit the case - "scumbuddies or retarded." I'm flattered.

[Mac]

BUDDY HARDER LOL

are you going to try and get me lynched for buddying GM if she flips jailkeeper tomorrow?

[Mac]

hey, you know, sometimes prs claim prs too?

what do you make of the "arrested" breadcrumb since I'm pretty sure some of your case is revolved around "keep" or whatever.

and you didn't answer the questions in #1826

[Mac]

Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.

Also. Case or it didn't happen, I don't want you guys to get in the habit of (and keep) voting without any reasoning at all.

You may not want to share ALL your reasoning right now (there are arguments about how it may help Scum, though I personally am for complete transparency at the moment), but at least one reason.

What I'm saying is that I expected you to react to my saying that I thought it was alignment indicative, but you didn't even bring it up (that I said it was alignment indicative).

And paring down quotes is par for the course, even suggested in this forum (just for future reference. I know some people have been quoting my quotewalls and it's totally cool if you break them down and take out the bits you're not responding to/interested in). I keep forgetting to say that, so now I've said it.

FFFFFFFF
KEEP ON KEEPIN' ON
YOU ARE SUPER COOL
KEEP IT UP
AND STUFF

Also let me repeat that if you want to vote me, keep a lid on and state intent first.

Here's various of GM's crumbs where I feel the 'keep' is delibrately inserted. Most, if not all of these keeps, are unnecessary and helping me believe her claim a bit more.

[Mac]

inb4lolonly4quotes

sometimes, that's all it takes.

[Mac]

hey, you know, sometimes prs claim prs too?

what do you make of the "arrested" breadcrumb since I'm pretty sure some of your case is revolved around "keep" or whatever.

and you didn't answer the questions in #1826

you must have misunderstood GMs post - he never said he breadcrumbed with arrested - he claimed that he was considering it and decided it would be too obvious---- an excuse to use such a comonly used word as a supposed breadcrumb when he never actually even crumbed with it before he claimed pr and merely used. It as something to make him look town WHICH ME AND FFER UNDENIABLY DISPROVED

decided it was to obvious and opted for arrested instead. misrepping now.

I did crumb it, albeit not that well. I have used the word "keep" as often as I could fit it in edgewise (starting in post 23) and in my early example about the Blockbuster (post 98) I was arrested (I thought the phrase "send me to jail" was a wee bit too obvious, even for me).

[Mac]

well it is a misrep because he's saying GM didn't say that when she did. whether it's delibrate or not is another matter.

[Mac]

1533

says why I thought GM was town

[Mac]

well it is a misrep because he's saying GM didn't say that when she did. whether it's delibrate or not is another matter.

This is funny coming from you actually, considering I've called you out several times for misrepresenting my play or arguments and you've argued the opposite - that it wasn't misrepresenting at all.

Good point, but we're in quite a serious situation at the moment so I'd expect all avenues presented to be accurate.

But you are right that it's pot. kettle. black. But misreps like that can lose us the game.

[Mac]

this is a ridiculously difficult position to be in. my head hurts from all the fucking possibilities here.

[Mac]

Meh, probably not delibrate. Worth pointing out however.

p-edit; no one seems to be considering that GM is actually the JK! like I've had her as town for most of d2 now. I've pointed out a selection of posts where 'keep' was included but not necessary. I've made a case for why Ineffective looks like scum pushing for the lynch of a PR.

trust me, I have considered the fake claim possibility. And whilst it is possible, I just can't see it.

[Mac]

I'm not sure. She always has Z as a scumread throughout d1, doesn't she?

[Mac]

At one point GM says she'd happily lynch me/Z/Eye.

After that, she's pretty hard pushing Eye to be lynched before compromising on AA9. It is logical for her not to jail her top scumread, as stupid as it may sound, because if Eye was read as scum by most, then there's no way he'd be performing the kill.

I think that makes sense. It's late.

[Mac]

of all the PR's, JK is probably the worst in this game type.

[Mac]

Makes sense cos then at least gm knew Z didn't make the kill last night.

Not my favourite role. It's only really useful for when theres one scum left. Easily manipulated too, which makes it kinda exciting I guess.

[Mac]

you too, Mac, if we're going to rap.

My preferred lynches for today are GIF or Ineffective. Really haven't like Ineffective for a while now, I dont see alot of the things he is saying coming from a town perspective at all.

[Mac]

Between the two you prefer Mac is that correct feryl?

Are you assuming that what we're seeing here is scumMac trying to buddy a townJK GM by hard defending her?

Whilst I appreciate this angle must be considered, I feel it is absolutely ludicrous to push a potential PR to the brink of being lynched even after they have claimed, such as Ineffective is doing. It screams of scum trying to get a PR lynched. I'm doing my best to cover all angles and I'm slowly coming towards a conclusion that Ineffective is scum and GM is JK.

[Mac]

Scum or town you cant deny that there is hardbuddying between you and mac.... And "yor an idiot" isnt a good way to rebut obvious statements

Other than just now where I said "good job mac", there hasn't been any buddying from me. And he's defending, which I would argue is different from buddying.

no. When you are the only two fossing me while im deathtunneling you and mac is the only one assuming you are town and vice versa... There is CLEAR buddying

that's the point. "assuming" - I have came to this conclusion over time. You however, have tried your best to get GM lyched REGARDLESS of her claim and seemingly without ever considering that she could be town. Your shit "threats" if you will were the final straw for me.

[Mac]

@1825: Look, I'm shit at crumbing and shit at playing PRs. You're asking me to disprove being scum. I'd do it in a heartbeat if any of the cases against me had any substance (or if the burden of proof were on me, which technically it isn't though this is a debate-type game so burden of proof arguments are somewhat tangential). They don't.

I see. I'm not entirely sure that makes sense (the math does, it's the logic I think is missing a step somewhere) but I see where you're coming from.




YOUUUUUUU GOOOOOO MACCCCC

This ventures into buddying territory I'm afraid.

I did wonder this too, don't worry.

[Mac]

I have decided to be nice for the duration of this game but my vote still stands. GM can we make peace with the fact that our terminology se t has different nuances and stick to more relevant discussion? My point is that under the stress of a gif lynch you are uneasy while everyone else is ok with it and vice versa. You also both foss me, seemingly moreso while i am voting the other person. This serve as the end result of you protecting each other from a lynch and smiting the torchbearer of it. Call it whatever you want

just because we both have suspicions of you, it doesn't make any of us scum.

[Mac]

Feryl have you found something particularly townie about Mac's responses? You seem oddly resistant all of a sudden, did you make it clear why somewhere I'm not seeing? You say that "nothing counterweights" what he said on Sunday which was "give me time". He's had time and all he's commented on has been the claim - he hasn't really elaborated on who he thinks is scum, or why. Just that in his opinion we shouldn't lynch GM on the basis of her unCC'd claim.

##Unvote

##Vote: Mac

His vote is blatant OMGUS of Ineffective. There's nothing townie in his response in my opinion whatsoever. He isn't interested in lynching scum, he's only interested in lynching people who want to lynch him. Now I want to lynch him. Let's see if I'm now more scummy to him than Ineffective.

seriously I made a fucking case on Ine. none of which was "he voted me." I am pretty fucking interested in lynching scum and I'm pretty sure Ine is scum. Are you even reading?

also I still have to read before I was to get lynched, and have stuff to say about GiF but Ine has just strolled in and became my strongest scumread for the way he's acting.

Are you saying we should lynch GM today? where's the logic in that? WHAT IF SHE IS THE JAILKEEPER?

[Mac]

I still don't get it but whatever. I want to see what more he thinks than "Inef and GiF are scum because they want to lynch me" for my part. If you're right you're right but I'm not convinced.

this is not true for ineffective. see 1826 possibly (probably) GIF, yes, but I feel it's pretty legit reasoning.

appreciate for a second I am town, regardless of your read. Now ISO GIF prior to his vote on me and he says NOTHING about be other than "null" and "this post seems odd" before retracting it.

sure he said PoE but he didn't really build up to it. It was opportunistic. He then follows up with "he's not posting" and "where is he" etc and no real substance.

There's also the fact he's trying to force content, which you can easily see by him picking up "slips" or whatever and then not actually following through with it. I'll ISO & find quotes in a second.

[Mac]

I envy your senses of certainty.

I envy people that are likable no matter if they know whats up or not <3

Guys you should all teach me how to be likable

cus likeeeee

Theoretically if mac/ME were town--- i could understand. Not liking me...

Im not very concious of how peope percieve me most of the time and.....

What if macs fossing me has nothing to do with anything but me being a prick?

You're not a prick, I just think you are suffering from serious tunnelvision on GM (which, considering I think she is legitPR) doesn't seem very town to do. Fair enough, give her a grilling for a while but to keep going on and on and on, it's like you are trying to force into saying something bad. And trust me, town can do that too.

If you could open up your mind to GM being town and me being town, where else would you look for scum?

[Mac]

Sorry that's alot of consecutive posts, my bad.

[Mac]

GiF's forced content

Spoiler: wall

@GM: I see your points. It makes me want to have a conversation with eye now

Mac's post about "hey I could've framed you" post seems odd to me.

"I could've done it but I didn't!" Line of stuff feels like he's deliberately saying it to distance people from thinking that he might do it.

I don't think Deras wanted me dead, did he?

Regardless, speculating NK's is stupid in my opinion.

I could just as easily accuse you of killing Deras and setting up me/GM/Eye for it, or anyone else in the thread for that matter.

Pointless.

I was talking about this post right here. Especially the bolded part.
Explain to me how I misrep'd you on this bolded part.

Hmm.

Reading back, I don't know what I was doing in there either.
I've been posting some terrible stuffs lately and I blame it on my fever that stayed for few days.

Pretty quick retreat when he realised that no one was going to jump onto this

Also I would really like to know how the hell I'm his strong townread when I'm not doing much.

self admits he is not doing much at all

Again, would prefer time to post my thoughts because tomorrow will be lylo so hang fire until tuesday at least.

Hmm. How did I miss this part?

continues to try and protray me as saying bad things without EVER following up on it.

You are not lynched yet...?

No, but I'm going to keep doing final thoughts as the fancy strikes me.

Hopefully I won't be the lynch today

, but I'll probably be the kill tonight.

Explain yourself on this one because it awfully looks like a scumslip.

'cause I see no reason why claimed PR should be worried about getting lynched if he/she's real PR.

never follows up on this either after I call him out for it.

I'd rather lynch Ine but GiF is good too.

[Mac]

I'm a VT.

I'd like GiF to go next, but whatever you guys want is cool with me

[Mac]

Okay that makes sense explained that way. It takes a pretty fucking accurate gauge to be effective, but I can see what you're saying.

Agree with this, there are atleast 3 people in the game who I felt were definitely not PRs from their posts but I never considered anyone a possible pr. mainly cos I didn't look.

[Mac]

Z, that makes zero sense & looks like you are trying to cast suspicion on VE.

How would him claiming doctor make any sense, especially considering a) the already claimed JK and b) he went first. If VE was scum, claiming a PR before anyone was a monumental risk to take & therefore I'm all for believing him more at the moment.

I like how you believe GM's claim and still paint her as the second top scumread, though.

[Mac]

Okay... but VE claiming first meant that any PR AFTER he claimed (so, everyone I think? Possibly except Ineffective) would know there was a liar in GM and VE.

I guess I can see your point, but I think it's quite a big risk to take for such a widely unsuspected player. The only benefit if he was lying would be if there was 1 PR (GM) and he lucked out, or if the other PR claimed and GM was lynched (due to being most suspect) - still, I don't think he'd lie at this point.

So you doubt both our PR claims Z?

[Mac]

It's actually a pretty interesting point about the claim being in the wrong colour.

[Mac]

Well you didn't actually say what was wrong with it and I hadn't realised until Z pointed to post 2.

[Mac]

paranoia is healthy in mafia, but Z7 the degree to which you're focused on VE appears to be to dangerously exclusive.

Absolutely agreed.

[Mac]

I'm at L-1 I see. gonna do pairs in a minute.

Z's vote looked to me like an opportunistic vote. Calls me a "prime target" and tries to link me and GiF. As have others, but I kinda feel his "mac is a prime target so I will vote him" seems pretty much like he's setting up a mislynch in me. That would make Z and GiF a viable scum team to me.

Z & GM is viable to me, because Z doubts VE's claim and then accepts GMs without much comment. seems like he's trying to pressure a PR in VE and maybe not GM.

Z & Inne could be... Inne joined & immediately started voting Z before moving to VE. distancing to start with? possibly.

VOTE: Z7

GiF and GM is possible. GiF fails to give a proper read on her at all and rarely comments on her claim. hmm.

since I believe gm's claim (for now), I'm opting for Z lynch right now since he could be everyone's partner except obvtown fferyl and VE. I'd prefer not to be hammered and we actually went for scum but at this point I think it's inevitable since alot of you have PoE'd me as scum.

[Mac]

Because Z hasn't really mentioned me as scummy *until* that vote and he also calls it opportunistic.

Scum is in Ine, Z and GIF and right now I'm fairly certain now it's Z&someone.

[Mac]

Rereading Z's post where he votes me is making me more certain of my vote.

Lists me and GiF as a pairing (but says, prior to this, we were null for him) because we are popuplar (sheeping, effectively)
Says I am a prime target
Says me flipping scum will "clear GM and VE" (so basically he's info flipping at this point. Doesn't sit right with me. @Z - what will happen when I flip town?)

basically I'm a popular vote at the moment and he's trying to cover it with an info flip in my opinion. Covers it with "I've been leaning scummy on" but I don't think he's said that about me recently at all.

[Mac]

@mod - V/LA for the weekend

Noted.

[Mac]

VOTE: gif

Mac get on this wagon or i will hammer you and that is no threat

Gif has been active on the site and assumed both pr claims are real

You are probably his partner judging by the timing of this selective inactivity and shared assumption that both prs exist

I metad gif as well and gif is usually more useful

Gif is scum

Final answer

Not having that. Because I went v/la im his partner.

Threatening me again. solid effort.

VOTE: GiF

Im still happy with this vote.

[Mac]

Hmmm. Self hammer indicates scum, good news.

[Mac]

To quote yourself: interesting.

That must mean there was either a) a no kill or b) I was targetted.

Obviously there is option C for everyone else but I know it's not true.

[Mac]

My first instinct, before hearing any claims, was mafia had no killed purely because as Ine said, a NK basically fucks shit up without any investigative roles. I can safely say I'll flip town; this will put doubts in your mind about a) GM's claim or b) if there is another NK, was this the person jailed?

I don't think a shot at fferyl is out of the question either because she's pretty much obvtown at this point for me & many others. GM provided fairly good WIFOM (assuming she is not fakeclaiming) and I think ff would have been a relatively "safe shot" outside claimed PRs/suspected players. Well done for second guessing that if it did happen.

The thing that worries me most is the possibility of GM fake claiming, though. She has the game in her hands pretty much if she is, imo.

[Mac]

wtf just happened with VE and Ine?

[Mac]

You absolutely cannot base suspicions around a self-hammer. Probably shouldn't even include it as part of them, to be honest.

[Mac]

You don't think mafia no killed?