Newbie 1351: Hyrule's Under Attack.. Interesting..-GAME OVER

[Deras]

Vote: fferyllt

for making a killer hummus, interesting choice of words or freudian slip?

[Deras]

Where I played my previous games lynching lurkers is always a scummy move.

Personally I believe that if people took a more hardline stance on lurkers (aka, line up everyone who lurkers, and kill the scummiest on day 1), then people would be more disinclined to lurk.

How would you pick the scummiest one if they're lurking? I mean, wouldn't that mean you don't have much to go on?

[Deras]

I haven't posted more because I'm not actually sure what kind of behaviour is scummy or not on the first day, specially with all the random stuff that flies around, and I haven't gotten any reads on anyone.

One thing I find rather amusing about our SEs and IC is that they appear to not represent all that much experience. Carey admits he's pretty bad, goodmorning has only been on the site a few months, and Revenus, well, I have a memory of reading through a game where he did something rather objectionable that reinforces the comment by goodmorning about his past behavior. That said, he looks like he's actually interested in this game, which I don't know whether I should put down to site maturity or drawing scum. The somewhat uncharacteristic behavior definitely makes me not entirely trust my slightly town read on him, but we'll have to see what happens as the game progresses.

While we have their past behaviour to go on, I wouldn't rely too much on it or they might start using that as an excuse. Whatever their experience is, it's probably still more than most of us.

Speaking about experience and because someone mentioned introductions as an alternative way to random voting, I've played somewhere around 10 mafia games, some 5 years ago in another forum. Since I can just go around this forum and check other people's games, I wonder if it's allowed/recommended that I should link you guys to my old forum so you can check some of my games? (If you want to take the trouble of browsing around it)

[Deras]

Deras, I've seen some players link to off site games. If you want to, there's no restriction against it.

My wiki link button in my miniprofile leads to information about my completed games here. There are only two, so far, but I think at least my town game is fairly well represented. Getting a scum role for my first game on the site encouraged me to take full advantage of not having any site meta.

Ok, thanks. Then just in case anyone wants to stalk me, I used to play here http://forums.nexuswar.com/viewforum.php?f=24

Here are a couple of my old games, the first ones I played I think but there's more I'm sure:
http://forums.nexuswar.com/viewtopic.php?t=11397
http://forums.nexuswar.com/viewtopic.php?t=10707
http://forums.nexuswar.com/viewtopic.php?t=11111

You might also find a reference somewhere around there to me being probably the worst player ever, don't trust them

[Deras]

Deras do you have any reads so far?

I haven't posted more because I'm not actually sure what kind of behaviour is scummy or not on the first day, specially with all the random stuff that flies around, and I haven't gotten any reads on anyone.

I don't think there's been enough pression on someone to get them to react, unless you count Fropome on post 35, which does seem like a bit of an overreaction. I don't know/remember enough of the theory to find scum tells this early, but I'm catching up on it.

[Deras]

Really? This is a really bad post. It feels like you're fishing for other people to call Fropome scum, and at the same time, you're saying "well, I haven't found anything really scummy".

If you haven't found any scum tells this early, why mention the overreaction? Is it scummy? Or did you just mention it for kicks?

I was asked if I had any reads and I replied that no, I don't, this thing jumps to my attention but I don't think it's really scummy, just peculiar.

[Deras]

Voting for me just because I point out something that sounds weird to me seems like a poor excuse to get a bandwagon going in my opinion.

Vote:Revenus

[Deras]

I haven't posted more because I'm not actually sure what kind of behaviour is scummy or not on the first day, specially with all the random stuff that flies around, and I haven't gotten any reads on anyone.

That is, you're afraid of giving yourself away with what might be obvious scum tells, so you're not posting at first to see what others do before copying town players. Nice idea, but I see through it. At least you're posting, but all I can see is more scummy behavior.

:/ I meant I'd like to see more in order to get a better read on people and since I had nothing I'd rather not make just contentless posts

That is, you're really stretching for thing to say because you're under pressure with trying to come up with reads when you already know who is and isn't scum.

No, I just don't have any reads yet so I just pointed out the only out of the ordinary thing I noticed, and inmediately after I did so Revenus went for me, which I find odd.

As much as I am a bit suspicious of Revenus in his last few posts, this is a terrible reason to vote for someone. Bandwagons are not bad things; you need them to lynch people, and you need to lynch people to kill the scum. You clearly don't want the pressure placed on you and are trying to deflect it somewhere else in any way you can.

My point is he seemed to jump at the opportunity of getting someone, anyone, lynched, in what is, in my admittedly biased eyes, a flawed argument.

Deras are you familiar with the mafia abbreviation OMGUS?

I wasn't but now that you mention it I guess that's sorta what I did.

[Deras]

Okay so I re-read the whole thread and took notes (thanks Fropome, the idea hadn't even crossed my mind :/) which I feel gave me a better perspective on things, here's the feelings I got:

Fropome: I feel his posts are mostly protown, the overly defensive reaction on post 35 still seems odd but overall I'm inclined to think he's town.

fferyllt: She seems to be the one that's most encouraging of discussion and has a bunch of protown posts, she's the most townie in my eyes.

AlexisTay3: He has participated some, but not overly much (me=hypocrite much?) and hasn't commited to anything. I have him as neutral atm.

Mac: Having just come into the game, and with just 1 post so far, I don't have any read on him yet.

Eye Urn: Seems to be encouraging discussion same as fferyllt, I feel he's townish.

CareyHammer: He's just lurking around, and he doesn't have enough posts for me to get a feel. I'd be inclined to vote for him in order to get him into the game though.

Revenus: He's posted some protown stuff, but I still feel his reasoning for voting for me is shaky (as opposed to Eye arguing about pseudolurking). I'd say neutral.

Goodmorning: Her posts seem protown but I don't know how much of that is actual discussion and how much is just the IC talking. Her vote for Fropome really threw me off as it seems pretty random or wihtout much basis. Probably the scummiest in my eyes other than Carey atm.

If I were to rank them I'd say:

fferyllt>Eye Urn>Fropome>AlexisTay3>Revenus>Goodmorning>CareyHammer.

In post 76, Fropome wrote:
In post 45, goodmorning wrote:
Bit defensive, this.

Not at all, not when there's possibly three scum tells in your post.

Could you point out what those three scum tells are? (Unless it's bad for town, I'm not sure if that's the case)

My vote on Revenus was a knee-jerk reaction so I'm gonna

Unvote

and wait to place a better thought-out vote.

Offtopic: While reviewing the thread I found out that you can check a single player's posts with the menu at the bottom of the page, and you can quote a specific part of a post by selecting it the clicking "Quote", just in case someone else didn't know

[Deras]

I don't remember when I said I don't take notes. That's only partly true; for notes I just ISO myself and Ctrl-F "interesting." For everything else I just reread.

You said it here

Nope. It serves me better to be flexible in my reads. If I see a new piece of information that challenges my preconceptions, I can look back and decide whether it's a fluke or I was actually missing something. When I keep notes, I tend to assign all new information to the "fluke" category.
BUT. I read fairly quickly, so note-taking may be the better method for some.

[Deras]

I've already explained why I'm off Carey. If he's not really paying attention, voting him will add no pressure. I only have one vote, I'd prefer it went somewhere more useful.

But Carey himself already said he is paying attention, just not posting any content

[Deras]

I've already explained why I'm off Carey. If he's not really paying attention, voting him will add no pressure. I only have one vote, I'd prefer it went somewhere more useful.

But Carey himself already said he is paying attention, just not posting any content

Also, he already reacted to a vote against him with an OMGUS vote, so he IS paying attention.

[Deras]

@Rev could you give us your reads?

[Deras]

Deras: I've already given out three townreads, they haven't changed and you should know where you and carey stand.

The people I haven't given reads on:

Yeah sorry, I meant on those you hadn't.

The good news is that Scum can't NK me or I'll flip, so if there's a Doc it throws the choice "IC or Towniest, who will Scum kill" right out the window.

I don't like this reasoning, I feel like you're setting up an excuse because you KNOW you won't be NK no matter what.

129: Comes after several people have given reads, and doesn't really cover much new ground (if any). In one sentence accuses me of going after easy targets while staying off of the... easy... targets? SEEMS LEGIT.
Seriously, ask yourself: Who are the easiest targets in this game? Carey and Deras, right? Who's been going after them again? JUST SAYING. JUST. SAYING.
132: Who goes easy on someone acting scummy? SCUM

Unless I'm misinterpreting this, the second point seems to contradict the first, on 132 you're arguing against ff for going easy on me because of perceived scummy behaviour, but in the first one you said going after Carey and me was the easy (and thus scummy) thing to do?

[Deras]

Yeah, I'll sigbet anyone, the Scum are in {AT3, fff, Fro, Deras}.

What sort of terms are involved in such a bet?

I believe a sigbet means whoever loses changes their signature to whatever the person who wins wants.

[Deras]

Alarm bells going off now. Justifying your active lurking with "I don't know what kindof behaviour is scummy" is worrying, mainly because if you were town, you wouldn't particularly care if you were scummy because you'd know you were town. Obviously you wouldn't want to be mislynched but you get my point. There are 56 posts before this and you felt you couldn't get involved in some sort of replying because you didn't know if it was scummy? Being over-cautious has made m feel very uneasy with you.

Regarding this, my meaning was more of a "I'm don't see any of YOU as scummy, so I don't think I have anything worthwhile to contribute". It hadn't ocurred to me that verifying town was as important as hunting scum, but I'm trying to rectify that.

[Deras]

In post 45, goodmorning wrote:
In post 35, Fropome wrote:
I thought the meaning of my posts was pretty clear? Maybe that IC hat has fallen in front of your eyes.
What would you say town's job is?

Bit defensive, this.


Not at all, not when there's possibly three scum tells in your post.

@Fropome, could you please clarify what scumtells you saw in GM's post back here?

[Deras]

I'd also like for someone else to compare my first game to this one so far, and see if you agree with GM. I may be the individual least aware of exactly what my scum game consists of, but to me, there is very little resemblance between my play in this game and in that one.

I just skimmed throught that one since it's sunday night and I'm sleepy but one thing that caught my eye is how much talkative you are in this game, you have 61 posts already in this one while it's still Day 1, whereas in your scum game you had 127 posts overall (including some after the game ended).

I think that willingness to talk, as long as it's actual discussion which I believe you have, is a protown since a scum talking that much would give themselves more chances to get caught (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

I'll do a more thorough comparison tomorrow.

[Deras]

Question for you Deras: do you think the increase in posts could be a change to throw people off the meta=scum argument? I mean, if fferyllt was scum, she'd probably try and play a completely different game to the last time, no?

Yeah, of course it could, in fact, as others have pointed out, if the player is good enough they can probably be aware of their meta and change it but I still believe the ammount of discussion generated by her is more likely to come from town than scum.

Before you even asked:
viewtopic.php?p=4825759#p4825759
Since you asked the first time:
viewtopic.php?p=4830708#p4830708

Thank you, I guess I missed the fact that those referred to the scumtells on GM's post.

In #88 that wasn't your case. We've debunked that and decided the two posts were similar.

I don't see how fferlyllt has contradicted #88 so far her argument has been "GM is going after the n00bs" all along, could you point out where she claims a different case against GM?

They are similar, yes.

I think the difference fferyllt is talking about is that GM agreed on the conclusion, aka "Deras = scum" which fferyllt sees as GM building cases against the easiest targets, whereas fferyllt's post allegedly agreed only on the thought process but not the conclusion (which I'm inclined to believe seeing how fferyllt gave me some leeway due to my newbiness).

This I believe ties up with what GM said about being in the same team but disagreeing (fferlyt) whereas I think you could also be on opposing teams and agree (or fake agreement, as in, a scum might agree with a townie's conclusions in order to push a mislynch a.k.a. GM pushing for Frop (on "gut") and me(on admittedly more sound basis)).

I would jump on, but I don't want to put my vote anywhere just yet. Still reading when I get a few minutes here and there. Is ff really that scummy? Not really. I have no idea what is going on. Maybe goodmorning. I dont know.

What the?

[Deras]

neither ff or gm are as good of votes as the turd that just posted

There is one other thing to consider here I think, GM was pretty adamant about "don't vote Carey, it won't matter". If we lynch Carey and he flips scum, I'd say that's a big argument against GM, if we lynch him and he's town, then I'd say that'd go a long way in clearing GM since if she was scum she'd probably go for the easy targets.

[Deras]

This is her new reason for voting GM, while her previous reason was for something about low hanging newb fruit. She's also claimed that GM was soft pushing Eye's case against you with an "attaboy" post, when in fact she did the exact same thing.

I think those are the same reason, low hanging newb fruit=Frop and me. Most n00bish players in the game by their account=Frop and me. Not sure I about the attaboy post, at the time I felt the tone of the posts was different because fferyllt argued afterwards for some leeway about my newbiness, but I think I'll go back an re-read that exchange to see how it shapes up in light of fferyllt's and GM's discussions.

p-edit: if GM's scum she will know Carey will flip town. It wouldn't really clear her. Are you aware of buddying Deras?

Oh, I hadn't thought of that, and here I was thinking I was so clever lol

[Deras]

If you look at 259, she indicates it's you she's referring to as being one of the "low-hanging newb fruit" I think.

As a side note, I just discovered [post] tags. How amazingly simple.

Yeah but the way I see it she's always meant her case against GM was for going against both Fropome and me, against Fropome via vote and against me via what she perceived as encouragment for my bandwagon.

I agree with a good deal of her logic but my main point right now is that I think she's been consistent on her case against GM.

[Deras]

Actually there's a prevailing theory that newbs replacing out are much more likely to be Scum. There's some slight justification for that but ultimately I'd (very roughly) estimate it at about 60-40 Scum-Town, and I certainly wouldn't call it any kind of reliable alignment tell.

Sauce?

[Deras]

Although I see the logic here, the thought of lynching someone who has said they have reasons for being busy is troublesome to me. I would like to see some time given to allowing Carey to become more involved before I want to consider possibilities of lynching. So far the only thing objective is in the god-kill / replacement avoidance by posting useless fluff. This also strikes me as not very n00b, if you can logic this on your own why couldn't you logic "I don't what counts for scum tells here" before you posted it? Did you already know that it was likely to be read as n00b town? It's a bit of a stretch of the imagination, I admit, but it is conceivable that you messed up and are now trying to make amends, by suggesting a "lynch for info" which is a nice way to set about justifying a mislynch IMO.

I said that back when Carey was dropping by once a day to say "lol hi i have no time for this". Since it seems he's getting into the game now, I'm no longer in favor of lynching him, at least until I see more of him.

Mac, what are your thoughts about this?

In post 170, goodmorning wrote:

The good news is that Scum can't NK me or I'll flip, so if there's a Doc it throws the choice "IC or Towniest, who will Scum kill" right out the window.

I don't like this reasoning, I feel like you're setting up an excuse because you KNOW you won't be NK no matter what.

If GM has responded to this, I haven't seen it.

Me neither.

She responded here:

YES
GOOD
GOOD JOB
I was waiting for someone to call that WIFOM or worse and nobody did. This is exactly what I was looking for and it's a minor point in your favour.

I still don't like that though, while it could be true, it feels like when a teacher would fuck up and the say "good, I did that to check if you were paying attention"

@Carey
Could you provide some reasoning behind your reads and your vote on me?

[Deras]

There are 9 players and 2 scum. Consider the set of SE/IC. The chance that they are all town is P(IC is not scum) * P(SE A is not scum given IC is not scum) * P(SE B is not scum given SE A and IC are not scum) = 7/9 * 6/8 * 5/7 = 210/504 ~= 42%. It is more likely than not that at least one SE/IC is scum. But it's far from definite.

Too lazy to do the math right now, but I think this is only almost right. From my perspective there are only 8 players and 2 scum, so the odds of one SE/IC being scum are slightly higher.

[Deras]

I was actually waiting for Carey to post some more to get a better feeling on him, as it stands he's the highest (lowest?) on my scumdar right now. Next in line would be you GM but I"m not sure enough to cast my vote on you.

I don't want to put you on L-2 already because in the off chance that you're not scum and they're not already voting you, I wouldn't want them to be able to end the day yet.

As for the others, I don't think any of them merit me voting them yet.

Btw Rev is on V/LA until saturday so I wouldn't expect him to post until then.

[Deras]

I was actually waiting for Carey to post some more to get a better feeling on him, as it stands he's the highest (lowest?) on my scumdar right now.

Anything specific, or just the lurking?

This goes way beyond lurking imo, he's posted basically zero content, he rarely if ever answers to any questions directed at him and he just posts random stuff half the time. On 232 he even went all defensive about how he won't replace and then on 384 he offers to replace out?

Honestly, I can't make heads or tails out of his erratic behaviour except for one thing: it's not helping us at all. And, if we just ignore the crazy guy, wouldn't that be the best place for scum to hide?

And let send the ball back at you, what do you think of Carey?

[Deras]

@all Sorry I've been somewhat quiet, things have been hectic at work this week, and will continue that way until probably wednesday next week. Not V/LA or anything, but my time for posting is less than it usually is.

@fferyllt He hasn't explained, even though I asked him to (his vote on me, and the rest of his reads) way back on 347.

I know. I will try to come up with some better reads this weekend, but I will be V/LA for a while.

V/LA huh...

Seriously guys, I'm not sure if I'm just letting my irritation with Carey get the best of me but this guy is almost textbook (wikibook?) active lurking. From the wiki:

"Examples of active lurking include posts made only of taunts, excuses for not posting, incoherent gibberish that will lead people to suspect that you do not have the Internet savvy to play Mafia, general bland agreement with whatever is going on, and so forth."

posts made only of taunts

You're the turd, you turdface

excuses for not posting (I just picked the best one, there's a couple of others laying around)

've posted no content because I've been spending my time in San Francisco partying all week. I dont appreciate you counting the hours since my last posts. What have I been doing for 7.5 hours? I've been living real life. You should try it sometime. It's just a game and we have weeks before deadline. Don't be totally shocked by my inattention to you. You sound like a whining little child. Give me some time to actually read the thread and you will have some content from me. I'm also trying to mod Risk, Craps, and Blackjack, and play a few games of chess all simultaneously so forgive me if i can't be posting here 24/7.

incoherent gibberish that will lead people to suspect that you do not have the Internet savvy to play Mafia

So, my terrible play with my meta indicates town. There you go.

Seriously, nothing would make me happier than him posting some reasoning behind his actions/reads.

Revenus scares me. He's posting stuff I agree with for the most part but not enough and not often enough.

Mac is bugging me. I'm cautious because I have a tendency to either trust or strongly distrust people who go after me. More likely to trust someone who does it first or does it originally. Second and sloppy seconds not so much. I'm awaiting his response to an earlier post I made. Right now, I'm cautiously leaning scum.

ArcAngel - she came into a slot that I was starting to get a scum vibe from. I've read a couple of her scum games to see if the relatively large amounts of stuff that is not applicable to this game or its current landscape is a feature of her scum games. I'd say that the quantity is not typical. But, a quick ISO of a couple town games do appear to be more short, sharp and to the point. The whole argument about the likelihood of one SE/IC player being scum and the other being in a n00b slot feels like distraction and maybe misdirection. Right now, I'm leaning scum.

Rev is V/LA until tomorrow iirc. Mac and ArcAngel haven't posted in a couple of days though.

[Deras]

@fffff: Honestly that readslist is striking me as incredibly Town for some reason. Reassessment is probably something that needs to happen sooner than later on my part as well.

I know it's just day 1 and not that much to go on but I'd be more comfortable if you started putting a bit more reason than hunches on your arguments.

[Deras]

I know Revenus is on V/LA. My observation is based on how I was feeling about him at the time he made the v/la post.

Oh, ok. It was also a response to Carey asking to hear more from Rev.

[Deras]

I post much more content as scum. As town, I'm kind of lazy until day 2.

Well could you please explain why you voted for me and why you feel the way you do about the other players? Just say "you lurk too much" or w/e you think

[Deras]

Deras is looking towniest to me. So townie it's actually starting to freak me out a little bit, remembering how in my previous newbie game (I was scum) players seriously underestimated me and figured I had to be naive, earnest low-experience town or something.

I'm towniest, fuck me right? lol

I'm not sure if I should be complaining about Carey, he says V/LA then posts 5 times after that wtf?

GM/ffer cooled down way too easily for me. Way, way too easily. I don't like ffer's unvote based on meta, mainly because I have a strong disdain for any meta beyond the kind that Carey shows. The people in this game are self-aware enough to use the knowledge of their meta to their own advantage, and I feel both of these players have been trying to push their metas at us too much. As it stands now after my thorough re-reading, I'm seeing them very strongly as the scum pair. In case they aren't both scum, I'm definitely leaning more towards GM being scum.

This looks interesting considering how GM and ff seem to be wearing matching outfits now, of course, the thread in the last couple of days has been mostly them, but it was that way before except before they were trying to rip each other's eyes out. Not sure if staged or honest yet, but I'd like to throw it out there again for consideration.

I have Eye and Fro as the towniest pending a re-read of their posts as I've probably focused too much on the GM/ff exchanges and Carey's behaviour and AA9 as the highest on my scumdar atm because I don't like the way she tried to push the "I bet an IC/SE is scum" at us then dissappeared when that didn't get any traction. As someone else pointed out, that'd be a great way to push a mislynch if she actually knows no IC/SE is scum.

She is active on the site though, has just been prodded and she posted less than 3 hours ago so it feels like there's a good chance she'll see this:

Vote: ArcAngel9

Rev and Mac should be coming back soon though, I hope they have a new perspective to share with us. There's still 11 days to go, but we probably should pick up the pace.

[Deras]

This looks interesting considering how GM and ff seem to be wearing matching outfits now, of course, the thread in the last couple of days has been mostly them, but it was that way before except before they were trying to rip each other's eyes out. Not sure if staged or honest yet, but I'd like to throw it out there again for consideration.

I can't point to a finished game at MS where I have done the same thing, so all I can tell you is that one of the ways I get reads is by provoking reactions - both from the person I'm going after and from other players. If you look back it was clearly me who started things with GM, not the other way around. The downside of doing this is that sometimes the player I sledge winds up putting me in their scum pile while I am deciding they are maybe town.

Ok time to come clean, other than skimming through Carey's games to check his behaviour, I've yet to read any of you guys's games I should get started on that soon^tm

[Deras]

Oh I also read a bit of that game you (ff) replaced a mafia on day 2 I think it was?

[Deras]

I have never replaced into a game at MS. In my first newbie game I was scum.

You're right it was GM, sorry it's getting late and being sleepy makes my brain do funny things

[Deras]

yay 12 hours without posts, that's a thread record I think

[Deras]

@Rev, what do you think of the GM/ff exchanges that happened while you were gone?

[Deras]

@Rev, what do you think of the GM/ff exchanges that happened while you were gone?

Mind summarizing it for me?

In a nutshell, GM voted Frop and said I was a good lynch candidate, which ff saw as going for the easier targets, n00bs. A back and forth of WoTs then started which ended up with ff claiming part of her case against GM was based on her dislike for GM and they becoming bffs. Someone said it could've all been a setup to distance themselves while allowing them to agree in the future. I'd advise you to at least skim through some of it though, while they were pretty verbose, there might be some subtleties that I might've missed.

[Deras]

About Carey I wanted to give him time to contribute but it appears that won't be happening soon so I'm more inclined to lynch him. Even so I think AA9 is a better candidate for a lynch atm, simply because IMO Carey just doesn't care and could be either town or scum, an argument about his complete lack of engagement would be WIFOM I think, because no scum would be so careless, unless they knew we'd think no scum would be so careless... ad infinitum.

In short, I'm not against lynching Carey, but I'd rather lynch AA9 atm.

[Deras]

Got a reaction out of you though, learning from the best

[Deras]

Probably should've waited for GM's reaction before I posted that though

[Deras]

The bffs part was meant to express my belief that the theory that the whole argument between you and ff/GM was faked warrants at least some attention, sorry if it rubbed you the wrong way

Probably the thing that jumps at me the most was this:

@fffff: Honestly that readslist is striking me as incredibly Town for some reason. Reassessment is probably something that needs to happen sooner than later on my part as well.

Which is what I see as one more of GM's "gut feelings", unless of course GM would like to explain what reason made the readlist town?

[Deras]

Of course, that was GM and it could be her trying to buddy you up, but I still think it makes re-examining the discussion and your backing off again worthwhile.

[Deras]

Nice vote carey

you've made me change my mind

Unvote

Vote:Careyhammer

Wtf you were already voting for him

Sigh, Carey...

@Mac I'll get one, probably later tonight.

I agree with ff's cautiousness about L-1, mainly because I'd giving the lynchee the chance to defend themselves, I'd hate to lynch a cop or doc without even giving them the chance to roleclaim.

[Deras]

Hey guys just dropping in to say I'm pretty swamped with work, I'll do my best to post something later tonight

[Deras]

^ this is a false accusation, I did gave basis of my reads, did you even read my opening post? It has the base read of each player in detail . What do you call that? Why are you lying about that?

Like I mentioned that my reactiong was clearly geniune as I was pushed to L-1, Carrey had a stupid reason to jump into my wagon and so is you...

Actually, I just read this and went to check really quickly: yes you did add reasons to your first readlist but that lists me as leaning town, then your next one says bleeding scum, you haven't explained what made you change. (didn't check the others to see if there were changes)

[Deras]

@Mac, I got an avatar, just for you

About ArcAngel, I don't like the way she seems to be basing her reads too much on who votes against her or who defends her and even admittedly raising her view of ff for unvoting her on 559.

Look, I was kept under L-1 yesterday which i pretty much see it as scum motivated wagon. the only thing that stopping me to see you as scum is how you changed your mind and took me back to L-2, otherwise I am not liking the way you continously pushing me to participate more. I will particapate and put out my opinions when i have and I feel to put out. I don't have to necessarly write out my reads to meet your expecations.

I especially don't like this part, how is pushing you to participate more scummy? I don't think asking you to participate is alignment-indicative, or if it is, it'd town IMO.

That, coupled with how she lurked for a couple of days after the mod confirmed the randomness of the roles (thus invalidating her first argument) while posting regularly on other threads, then claimed she was busy; the possibility that the original argument was a scum ploy to make us mislynch the IC/SE, her refusal to provide reasons for her reads (which can only be good for the town, putting more information forward) makes me comfortable leaving my vote where it is.

Also, she just unvoted Carey, that gives me the impression that she didn't think Carey was actually scum (or she'd keep the vote up, since the slot would be scum, not the player), but rather voted against the player because of (admittedly horrendous) his behaviour. I actually argued against this in 534, because I'd rather go for someone I consider scum rather than someone who is just disruptive, but who may or may not be scum; I guess I didn't make it clear enough back then though.

Secondly, this makes her voting Carey over Rev or me even worse: IMO it'd be better to make a case against someone you consider scum, specially with over a week yet to go, even if they have no votes against them yet, than just jump into someone else's bandwagon, just because it'd be easier to lynch them instead (which is what she admitted to doing in 596

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Aaaaand Z is flip-flopping more than a paranoid flounder on meth. I do not know why you all have townreads on him or his slot.

Could you point out where he is flip-flopping? Other than downgrading you from leaning town to leaning scum, I think his reads have been fairly consistent.


649 did strike me as a little odd, GM giving no reasoning for her reads. I did a quick search and only found two games where she gave readlists with no reasoning Open 474 and Micro 137, on both games she was scum. She does have 7 non-town games to 4 town games and her town games are earlier so it might just be that her play has evolved, but I still think it's worth taking into consideration.


AA9 hasn't said anything to change my views of her though, so I consider her much scummier than GM.

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What worries me is that we might be wrong about AA9, and the scum are just waiting until the deadline, happy to get a mislynch, but no one, scum or town, should just sit idle while they get lynched the way AA9 seems content to do.

And speaking of her, AA9 has been posting on the site this weekend, just not in this thread

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So, less than 3 days now and not much new stuff besides everyone remarking not much new stuff going on and AA9 yelling she's a townie.

@GM, IC question, is no lynch ever good for town?

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So, overnight we decided to lynch Z instead of AA9, seems legit. Good to see so much discussion going on though.

Reading...

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I pretty much don't see me, Revenus, or Deras voting for "Fropome", so you're going to have to get Mac.

What makes you think Rev or me wouldn't vote Frop, or that Mac would?

That said, I agree with you in most things, GM seems to be going after Frop, while VE seems to be going after Z, neither is taking into account the whole slot imo.

This really bothers me considering that back when Casey was all "I'll give you reads laters, lol nope", GM was trying to deflect attention from him, and I always felt a bit suspicious about it. Then VE comes to support the bandwagon GM is pushing. One of the things I have against this GM/VE scum partners theory is that it would've just been easier to lynch AA9, but maybe they're saving her for lynch or lose? (which, if she's town, wouldn't be a bad idea, considering the way she's been playing). OR, it's VE/AA9 and VE just did the save of the game getting AA9 out of the fire.

My current scumpile would be GM, VE and AA9, with an empashis on a GM/VE partnership.

All in all, and since VE is the closest to go, I'll

Vote: VisceraEyes

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I do not like the VE bandwagon one teensy tinesy bit.

I'm responding to how quick VE and GM almost got Z lynched. GM even asked for a hammer back in 755 and 756, before Z could respond, or half the game post.

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I think GM is scummier, yes, but I still think VE is her partner. Besides, VE is only at L-2, which is the same as Z, so I'd rather lynch VE than Z.

I'd be willing to switch my vote over to GM if there was any traction there though, voting for her right now feels like voting green party.

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I never tried to deflect attention from him even a little bit. Please demonstrate where you think I did so.

I unvoted Carey because even though it is a decent vote theory-wise, it's useless to pressure someone who's not going to see that he's being pressured.

Besides that, Carey is usually pretty easy to read if you glance at his past games, so even if he doesn't post a lot there's still something to go on.

The similar push on Carey is giving me a hella Townread on him now

Carey - in addition to not having said much to find scummy, the speed and volume of policy suspicion on him makes me suspect that he may be Town.

This VE wagon is BAD BAD BAD and I intend to be INCREDIBLY RAGE if it goes through

Wish granted,

Vote: Goodmorning

P-edit: GM, Convince me then. I've read the case against Z and I don't find it enough. What do you mean Fe and Mac? I'd honestly think you'd go for AA9 before them

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I think GM is scummier, yes, but I still think VE is her partner. Besides, VE is only at L-2, which is the same as Z, so I'd rather lynch VE than Z.

I'd be willing to switch my vote over to GM if there was any traction there though, voting for her right now feels like voting green party.

Riddle me this. If VE and GM are the scum team, why would VE come into the game and upset the AA9 apple-cart with just over 2 days to go?

One of the things I have against this GM/VE scum partners theory is that it would've just been easier to lynch AA9, but maybe they're saving her for lynch or lose? (which, if she's town, wouldn't be a bad idea, considering the way she's been playing). OR, it's VE/AA9 and VE just did the save of the game getting AA9 out of the fire.

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Warming up to an Eye wagon, actually.

@GM, I trust ff somewhat (probably the most in the game) so could you outline your Eye case?

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Why would AA9 have put her vote on her scum partner Carey?

Just playing devil's advocate here but, to save herself because it was obvious Carey wasn't playing ball, make the best out of a bad situation? I think I've mentioned it before, but it seemed to me she was voting Carey out of annoyance at Carey's behaviour, not any alignment-related reasons.

I'd actually forgotten she voted for Carey . Still, my strongest feeling was for a GM/VE partnership.

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@Deras: None of those attempt in any way to deflect attention from Carey. I use several points (meta, speed of read buildup) to ascertain that I believe his slot to be Town. One person saying "I think this guy is Town" =/= one person saying "we should ignore this guy".

But it you kept saying, don't vote him he's not worth it.

Point me explicitly to an argument I have made, and I will reconsider it and return with a more thorough exposition of it, or an acquiescence that I was wrong.

I'd like to see these as well please.

That is L-1, I think. If anyone intends to hammer, keep a vote off until you've stated intent and let me respond.

This, please don't hammer GM yet.

IC PART OF THE POST TIME: EVERYONE STOP PAIRHUNTING BEFORE FLIPS THAT IS SO EFFING COUNTERPRODUCTIVE

IC question: Why is it counterproductive?

GAIZ, DONT TYPE SO FAST GAIZ

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Also GM, I just realized your avatar is a cat as well, however, my cat is superior

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I am Town, And any direction that town moves and i ll move along.
And i am afraid of getting lynched. I am very well aware that not all town team will survive to the end, i know that some of us will have to be either mislynched or night killed by mafia, i just didn't want to go down without a fight.

This is silly, of course I'd like to live to the end, but while protecting myself is good for town (because I know I'd be a mislynch) my main goal is to weed out the scum, not just live as much as possible. I'd rather die and have the town win than live to the end and let the scum win.

[Deras]

I'm not sure what you're asking, he's defending himself using almost exclusively meta.

She's pointing out Mac uses mainly meta for his defense, but dismissed meta as a valid case against GM. Reading everything that happened since I was here.

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I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on a Mac lynch versus a GM lynch.

Ugh, just caught up with the last 5 pages or so after I went to sleep last night, ISO'd Mac and had something to eat . Basically, I don't get the feeling that Mac hasn't done anything, sure he's only put 3 votes down (one being the RVS), but I get the feeling that he's been actually discussing things. I'm way more upset about his hypocrisy about meta with dismissing a case about GM based on meta, but basing his own defense purely on meta. Still, I'd rather lynch GM.

Post 90 - GM
Townie post. I can't see scum unvoting someone for that reason - more likely to keep their vote on and call it pressure to post...especially with the current sentiment against lurkers at this point in the game.

This is, it's only a townie post if you (Carey) are not scum, otherwise GM is just trying to protect his scum buddy. This was part of why I was suspicious of your slot.

Do you know where he stands on me presently? Do you know if he actually thinks GM is scum?

After all this discussion, you've moved up a lot in my eyes, null leaning town I'd guess. Basically I was basing my case against you on of your (by your own admittance) weak case on Z, plus GM/Carey interactions that I feel could mean they're (you're?) scumbuddies. Guess I was rubbing some of my GM suspicions down on you/Carey.

At least he did something about it. Deras was just hopping onboard town sentiment. And hopped off just as quickly.

Ditto, I feel GM is scum, and I had a pretty strong feel that you were her buddy. I jumped off because you were both on my scumpile, but GM seems scummier, so I'd rather lynch her, but you were closest to a lynch and we were pretty close to deadline. Once a GM lynch possibility opened up, I switched my vote there.

Overall I'd still rather lynch GM, then AA9. The only one I'd rather not lynch is ff. The others I might compromise depending on how good the argument against them is.

[Deras]

I don't agree with an Eye lynch, Mac's case on 959 seems to be based on what I think is misrep (the math argument, which I feel wasn't really supporting AA9), Eye's "revelation", which is odd, but I can't see how this is scummy, and his second vote for GM, which I see as him agreeing that GM is the scummiest around, and opening up the possibility for a lynch. I would've liked that he'd kept his vote on GM though, voting AA9 just makes a GM lynch that less feasible.

AA9's reasons 1031 seem dumb, not sure if VE finds Eye scummy or is just annoyed enough with him to lynch him (1130), and I'm not even sure about GM's motivations against him (she's had her in her scumpile for a while though, I'd just like her to outline the reasons). Overall seems like everyone wants him lynched for different reasons, not sure if that's good or bad.

Bottomline: I'd still like a GM or AA9 lynch.

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I was under the impression that those false arguments were cleared up, Eye's 800 and 806 called out VE's weak case on Z, which even VE admitted later. Also on 800, Eye calls for VE to read the whole thread, once VE did, Eye unvoted no, seems consistent to me.

The argument about 666 seems like a "yes you did", "no I didn't", but I agree with Eye's 897. You claim it's a false argument, but it's not verifiable because if you're scum, you could very well be doing just what Eye thinks you are.

Is there another false argument that you'd like to point out?

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Also could you elaborate on the "not particularly connected to the game" part? Do you mean he's just trying to appear active, but not actively contributing?

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Who is ctusz? He only posted once and like gone.

Random newb who wanted to join the game

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I'm cool with an AA9 lynch, I won't hammer since several people have already expressed their intent and maybe we can still squeeze something out of the time we have left, but consider my vote there.