Micro 152 - BSG Mafia (Galactica Survives?)

[buldermar]

Checking in.

[buldermar]

I think orcinus is town.

Because of #18, or?

[buldermar]

Syrana. Since he tried to cover it up with a pretty bullshit reason. Everyone else at least was pretty open that this was a RVS wagon

That being said I don't believe town ff would give away town reads as easily as that. Last game you were unsure about my alignment all the way until day 2, going scum, then town, then scum.

Vote is now serious

I've played with ff before and I've seen her accurately nail an entire scum team of four players on day 1 before she got nightkilled based on very few posts. In other words, I think you're very wrong that ff wouldn't give away town reads early or easily.

[buldermar]

Oh hey there :3

Vote: Sotty

Wagon FF please

So this is not a random vote.

Why?

Why can't wagons be random?

you're kidding me.

VOTE: Pitoli

I like orc for town based on the above reaction as well.

[buldermar]

Am I the only one who looks at the wagon on Syryana as being baseless and stupid? It was an RVS vote which Orcinus in particular has over-exaggerated.

VOTE: Orcinus

I'm not bothering with RVS. He's flopping on his scumreads, with votes that 'Are now serious' on an RVS vote to a vote on the person who questioned why wagons can't be random

referring to a wagon from the RANDOM vote stage.

Tryharding scum has been caught.

Interesting, because I read this opposite of you. I think that the overreaction, which I agree it is, is likely to come from town. I think scum-orc would probably be more deliberate about what to base votes on.

[buldermar]

I use my vote to try and get town out of RVS as fast as possible.

I find this reasoning a bit silly. RVS isn't mandatory. If you think it is something to be "moved out of" why would you instigate it in the first place?

[buldermar]

Like I'm actually confused as to why I need to specify how bad Pitoli's post was. It added nothing to discussion, asked something that has already been established, and ignored the entire conversation beforehand.

But anyways. Hi buldemar.

Hey =)

I agree that it's bad, but I'm not sure why you find it particularly scummy?

Vote Count 1.4

pitoli

[3/5] - Sotty7, Syryana, Nero

fferyllt

[2/5] - Deltabacon, orcinus_theoriginal

Syryana

[1/5] - Lurker

Sotty7

[1/5] - pitoli

Pacifists (

Not Voting

): buldermar, fferyllt

-Angry P

[buldermar]

Well, after reading again I'd be up for an FF lynch, given that he's quite happy to allow you to pick his vote for him whilst town reading you with very weak reasoning which you have rebutted, and has been obstructive to the production of offsite meta, which whilst it could read as null, reads to me as scum deliberately impeding an investigation on them.

UNVOTE: Orcinus

VOTE: FF

It's a she.

We're not lynching ff today for several reasons.

Firstly and most importantly, she's by far the best player in this game and (in my opinion) especially so as town. This means that when she's town, by reading her reads carefully, we succesfully lynch scum more often than we otherwise would. When she's scum, we may wrongfully lynch town, but we also have a really good indicator that she's scum as she's very rarely wrong in her reads.

Secondly, the accusation that she is "town reading with very weak reasoning" is preposterous. What exactly is it you mean with weak reasoning?

Thirdly, I highly doubt that her refusing to give away meta is at all related to her alignment in this game.

On the other hand, it looks a bit scummy to me that you deliberately chose to read it as "scum deliberately impeding an investigation on them" when it for all you know could be related to wanting anonymity for now.

[buldermar]

Oh and ff refusing to offer offsite meta is townie, not scum. Jsyk.

^^ also looks town to me.

[buldermar]

Well no FF did it last game when she was obvtown and I think it's townie that she's willing to uphold that belief despite whatever flak she might get for it.

Nero: Good policy lynch, or

great

policy lynch?

I'm pretty sure that her being unwilling to provide meta from a different site is in itself null.

[buldermar]

Orcinus I want to know

why

you think he should be PL'd. First game I've played with him.

I'm going to try out a scumtell.

VOTE: fery

Town-fery would've meta'd Nero.

You're voting someone for asking a direct and simple question as opposed to reading an entire game?

[buldermar]

Lol hey cool look at that.

I would've called for a PL right out of a gate is what I meant.

This fixation on small details doesn't seem like scumhunting. What exactly are you doing right now ff and what do you hope to get out of this conversation?

I would love to put FF at L-1 right now but I'm afraid of an unpredictable idiot named Nero.

Inconsistencies grab my attention.

I hope to figure some people out, though I usually better on more sleep. I woke up and got back into this thread around 4 am my time. It's 6 am now. Coffee would probably help.

I liked Syryana's last post.

Do you think anything about Syryana specifically writing out "Mafia Goon" as opposed to just saying "scum"? I have some thoughts about it, but I'd like to hear yours first.

[buldermar]

I just realized that there's a lot of noise about Pitoli's fluff post, but buldermar got no flack at all for posting a "checking in" during the midst of all this noise.

People haz le fear when they see my name.

[buldermar]

If Buldermar continues to lurk, then we can revisit.

I don't ever lurk. Either I spam the thread with posts or I'm busy IRL.

[buldermar]

People are being intriguingly free with their townreads this game.

And it's a sunny day in Denmark.

[buldermar]

Am I the only one who looks at the wagon on Syryana as being baseless and stupid? It was an RVS vote which Orcinus in particular has over-exaggerated.

VOTE: Orcinus

I'm not bothering with RVS. He's flopping on his scumreads, with votes that 'Are now serious' on an RVS vote to a vote on the person who questioned why wagons can't be random

referring to a wagon from the RANDOM vote stage.

Tryharding scum has been caught.

Interesting, because I read this opposite of you. I think that the overreaction, which I agree it is, is likely to come from town. I think scum-orc would probably be more deliberate about what to base votes on.

You need to read the thread again.

You need to be more specific as I'm not going to read the thread in its entirety again right now.

[buldermar]

I use my vote to try and get town out of RVS as fast as possible.

I find this reasoning a bit silly. RVS isn't mandatory. If you think it is something to be "moved out of" why would you instigate it in the first place?

Big words from someone who avoided RVS.

How do you start a game, tell me please

I didn't avoid RVS, I just wasn't around. However, if I was around I would explicitly have declared it over because it's inherently anti-town and a massive waste of time.

More or less any other way of starting the game is superior to writing a post that contains absolutely nothing that has any potential what-so-ever to be alignment-indicative. I could have written about my favorite colour and it would have been more useful.

[buldermar]

Like I'm actually confused as to why I need to specify how bad Pitoli's post was. It added nothing to discussion, asked something that has already been established, and ignored the entire conversation beforehand.

But anyways. Hi buldemar.

Hey =)

I agree that it's bad, but I'm not sure why you find it particularly scummy?

I didn't.

You didn't find it particularly scummy, yet you voting him for his bad post?

[buldermar]

Yep.

First off, "an entire game" is misleading. Nero has maybe 50 posts between 3 games. All of them one-liners.

Secondly, from what I've seen of FF last game, I know that she tries very hard as town. And not once in last game did she ever ask for meta--she preferred to get it herself.

Which is why I think that this is out-of-character for town ff. Along with other things.

Something can't be "misleading" when it's a guess, it's just incorrect or inaccurate, which is entirely different - especially in this context.

All I'm saying is that I find the assertion that her not having read the meta being indicative of her being scum silly.

Which other things?

[buldermar]

No matter how quick and how good FF's reads are, #26 was overkill.

Well I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

[buldermar]

Do you think anything about Syryana specifically writing out "Mafia Goon" as opposed to just saying "scum"? I have some thoughts about it, but I'd like to hear yours first.

Really?

like. Really?

Yes, really, and I'll elaborate on that later.

[buldermar]

Lol hey cool look at that.

I would've called for a PL right out of a gate is what I meant.

This fixation on small details doesn't seem like scumhunting. What exactly are you doing right now ff and what do you hope to get out of this conversation?

I would love to put FF at L-1 right now but I'm afraid of an unpredictable idiot named Nero.

Inconsistencies grab my attention.

I hope to figure some people out, though I usually better on more sleep. I woke up and got back into this thread around 4 am my time. It's 6 am now. Coffee would probably help.

I liked Syryana's last post.

Do you think anything about Syryana specifically writing out "Mafia Goon" as opposed to just saying "scum"? I have some thoughts about it, but I'd like to hear yours first.

He's new to the site I think but obviously has mafia experience from his posts.

Hm. Remembering my first game here, I was a lot more careful of local terminology than I've been in later games. I was scum, and that played into my punctiliousness.

I was thinking that if I was new to this game and I had just received the role "Mafia Goon" in a PM, I would without thinking about it refer to that role by its exact name as opposed to referring to it as scum. We managed to confirm a VT in a different game because the new player referred to his role as Townie as opposed to VT. In the PM, the role was called Townie. Since the OP post of the game did not contain role PM's we were thinking that it would be highly unlikely to a scum to come up with the specific role name "Townie" as opposed to VT, which is more common terminology.

[buldermar]

Am I the only one who looks at the wagon on Syryana as being baseless and stupid? It was an RVS vote which Orcinus in particular has over-exaggerated.

VOTE: Orcinus

I'm not bothering with RVS. He's flopping on his scumreads, with votes that 'Are now serious' on an RVS vote to a vote on the person who questioned why wagons can't be random

referring to a wagon from the RANDOM vote stage.

Tryharding scum has been caught.

Interesting, because I read this opposite of you. I think that the overreaction, which I agree it is, is likely to come from town. I think scum-orc would probably be more deliberate about what to base votes on.

You need to read the thread again.

You need to be more specific as I'm not going to read the thread in its entirety again right now.

Oh wow the derps on me - I thought the wagon on FF was on Syrana, then saw another vote for Syrana in post 29.

So said "overreaction" doesn't actually exist.

I missed that post.

[buldermar]

I use my vote to try and get town out of RVS as fast as possible.

I find this reasoning a bit silly. RVS isn't mandatory. If you think it is something to be "moved out of" why would you instigate it in the first place?

Big words from someone who avoided RVS.

How do you start a game, tell me please

I didn't avoid RVS, I just wasn't around. However, if I was around I would explicitly have declared it over because it's inherently anti-town and a massive waste of time.

More or less any other way of starting the game is superior to writing a post that contains absolutely nothing that has any potential what-so-ever to be alignment-indicative. I could have written about my favorite colour and it would have been more useful.

Right but then town would never get into the serious stages of the game.

The game only starts when an interaction such as that between me/ff (arising from random votes mind you) causes an alignment-indicative response to arise. Every game starts in RVS, and it ends when something alignment-indicative comes up. My goal is to make that period in between as short as possible.

But this is a pointless discussion.

No matter how quick and how good FF's reads are, #26 was overkill.

If I wound up quick-lynched overnight at your behest without a chance to dump my nascent reads, I wanted my town read on you well cemented in memories.

You're welcome.

If you're actually town, remind me to come back to this post game.

Were you genuinely worried about a quicklynch?

I agree that it's a pointless discussion - at least in this context. If you feel like it, we can discuss it post game.

[buldermar]

I use my vote to try and get town out of RVS as fast as possible.

I find this reasoning a bit silly. RVS isn't mandatory. If you think it is something to be "moved out of" why would you instigate it in the first place?

Big words from someone who avoided RVS.

How do you start a game, tell me please

I didn't avoid RVS, I just wasn't around. However, if I was around I would explicitly have declared it over because it's inherently anti-town and a massive waste of time.

More or less any other way of starting the game is superior to writing a post that contains absolutely nothing that has any potential what-so-ever to be alignment-indicative. I could have written about my favorite colour and it would have been more useful.

Right but then town would never get into the serious stages of the game.

The game only starts when an interaction such as that between me/ff (arising from random votes mind you) causes an alignment-indicative response to arise. Every game starts in RVS, and it ends when something alignment-indicative comes up. My goal is to make that period in between as short as possible.

But this is a pointless discussion.

No matter how quick and how good FF's reads are, #26 was overkill.

If I wound up quick-lynched overnight at your behest without a chance to dump my nascent reads, I wanted my town read on you well cemented in memories.

You're welcome.

If you're actually town, remind me to come back to this post game.

Were you genuinely worried about a quicklynch?

After the Nightless game and that wagon on KBW?

It crossed my mind.

Which game is that?

[buldermar]

Like I'm actually confused as to why I need to specify how bad Pitoli's post was. It added nothing to discussion, asked something that has already been established, and ignored the entire conversation beforehand.

But anyways. Hi buldemar.

Hey =)

I agree that it's bad, but I'm not sure why you find it particularly scummy?

I didn't.

You didn't find it particularly scummy, yet you voting him for his bad post?

You need to read the thread again.

I use my vote to try and get town out of RVS as fast as possible. Pitoli was not a scum vote, it was a reaction test, especially since I was getting bored of talking to FF. And I suppose there was a little bit of suspicion in Pitoli jumping in and not commenting on the interaction between me and FF at all. Pitoli's vanishing act is not what I was trying to achieve.

I missed that post too. Thanks, that does change quite a bit. If anything I think you look even more town.

[buldermar]

Yep.

First off, "an entire game" is misleading. Nero has maybe 50 posts between 3 games. All of them one-liners.

Secondly, from what I've seen of FF last game, I know that she tries very hard as town. And not once in last game did she ever ask for meta--she preferred to get it herself.

Which is why I think that this is out-of-character for town ff. Along with other things.

Something can't be "misleading" when it's a guess, it's just incorrect or inaccurate, which is entirely different - especially in this context.

All I'm saying is that I find the assertion that her not having read the meta being indicative of her being scum silly.

Which other things?

Well I mean you can call it silly just as I can find you calling someone out for saying "Mafia Goon" instead of "scum" as important silly.

I think #26 is an overreaction given my behavior in RVS. I mean, if you blanked out everything after #26 and looked purely at the first page of posts, to have a townread so strong is unbelievable. I mean, I don't think it's possible to have so strong a townread so early, especially given how uncertain she was last game with me.

Fery pressing me on the Nero issue rubs me in the wrong way.

And the meta thing.

She is by far the best town mafia player I know of and it's not even close. She already indirectly confirmed that she correctly pointed out an entire scum team of four people on day 1 based on very few posts in this thread - that should at least mean something so long as you don't think we have some weird conspiracy going on.

[buldermar]

I was thinking that if I was new to this game and I had just received the role "Mafia Goon" in a PM, I would without thinking about it refer to that role by its exact name as opposed to referring to it as scum. We managed to confirm a VT in a different game because the new player referred to his role as Townie as opposed to VT. In the PM, the role was called Townie. Since the OP post of the game did not contain role PM's we were thinking that it would be highly unlikely to a scum to come up with the specific role name "Townie" as opposed to VT, which is more common terminology.

Right but this doesn't actually hold for this situation since it's kind of different

The way I read it, Syryana went and read Nero's game and, you know, read

hawkleader3 Nero

Mafia Goon

, lynched Day 2.

So I don't think this applies here.

That may be the case.

[buldermar]

After the Nightless game and that wagon on KBW?

It crossed my mind.

I feel like there are fundamental differences between a D2 PoE pre-decided quicklynch and this game.

I can deal with keeping FF around a lot but I would just like to make it known that I have her strongly written down as scum right now.

Will you at some point before this day ends write down what exactly you think is scummy about her? I know some of it already, but you insinuated that there is more.

[buldermar]

[quote="In post 126
Which game is that?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=26455

At my partner's urging I started a counter-bandwagon on a player, though I preferred the bandwagon that was already building. That bandwagon was off like a shot late at night my time. I unvoted when I thought it got to L-2 IIRC. Neither bandwagon was on scum as it happened. This game is one of the reasons why I doubt my scumhunting is as pinpoint here as it is in an environment where I know all the players well.

Alright, I may have a look at that later when I have more time available.

[buldermar]

She is by far the best town mafia player I know of and it's not even close. She already indirectly confirmed that she correctly pointed out an entire scum team of four people on day 1 based on very few posts in this thread - that should at least mean something so long as you don't think we have some weird conspiracy going on.

Is this referencing some game that I should know about? Because I'm having a tough time figuring what this means.

PEdit: Um. Nekoko wagon was "on scum". Or did you mean neither scum were on the bandwagon?

It is referencing a game, but not one you can know about - sorry about that.

[buldermar]

Need more content from Lurker, obviously.

That's the most annoying name ever. It was only after reading the most recent vote count that I realized it's actually a specific player.

[buldermar]

Lol hey cool look at that.

I would've called for a PL right out of a gate is what I meant.

This fixation on small details doesn't seem like scumhunting. What exactly are you doing right now ff and what do you hope to get out of this conversation?

I would love to put FF at L-1 right now but I'm afraid of an unpredictable idiot named Nero.

Inconsistencies grab my attention.

I hope to figure some people out, though I usually better on more sleep. I woke up and got back into this thread around 4 am my time. It's 6 am now. Coffee would probably help.

I liked Syryana's last post.

Do you think anything about Syryana specifically writing out "Mafia Goon" as opposed to just saying "scum"? I have some thoughts about it, but I'd like to hear yours first.

He's new to the site I think but obviously has mafia experience from his posts.

Hm. Remembering my first game here, I was a lot more careful of local terminology than I've been in later games. I was scum, and that played into my punctiliousness.

I was thinking that if I was new to this game and I had just received the role "Mafia Goon" in a PM, I would without thinking about it refer to that role by its exact name as opposed to referring to it as scum. We managed to confirm a VT in a different game because the new player referred to his role as Townie as opposed to VT. In the PM, the role was called Townie. Since the OP post of the game did not contain role PM's we were thinking that it would be highly unlikely to a scum to come up with the specific role name "Townie" as opposed to VT, which is more common terminology.

Interesting. Maybe. I'd be more comfortable making a townie call on role pm wording that than a scum call. The cardflip in the game we were talking about specified "Mafia Goon".

Yeah, I'm not sure it's of relevance then.

[buldermar]

Okay. I like some of the points you're making, but I also think some of them are just misreads. Should I outline my thoughts now or wait for your full "case"? One thing that I can at least say is that I'd really, really hate lynching her on day 1 and be wrong. That would in my opinion be way worse than lynching any other person and be wrong.

[buldermar]

I agree on enough of your points to lean scum, but I just can't stand the thought of mislynching her specifically. You're probably right that I'm being a bit biased and I'll try not to, but I think we should seriously consider lynching someone else for at least day 1.

Here is my concerns:

Np

It's 1am and I just read through ff's only other scum game. This isn't my summarize case but I'm more convinced than ever that FF is scum.

-Ff seems to be more passive and just seems to be less engaged. This is reflected in how FF dealt with Nero.
-Why did she form such a strong read on me from literally 4 one line RVS posts--but not anyone else? Why hasn't she an opinion on Buldemar, who I assume she has offsite experience with? Where is her vote, her other reads? If she's such a strong town player and her 4 vote take it to the grave read on me isn't out of the ordinary, it's strange that she doesn't have a vote down.
-She's been less confrontational, and have expressed very few (if any?) original ideas
-I dislike the syryana vote on page 2. I don't see the pro-town intentions behind it, I don't like how she didn't follow it up
-The KBW thing still confuses me. Why are you referring to it, since you bought it up in reference to a quicklynch? Day 1 of our game was the furthest thing from a quicklynch, ever.
-She's calling out lurker for "needing more content". Don't you need more content from a lot of people (pitoli, etc)? Why singling out lurker, and this insinuates that you don't need more content on anyone else (or at least have enough to work with). I've yet to see an influx of reads from you

And everything previously mentioned

My reading of FF's game really only gave me one thing (well, three, and I'm going to save the other two for later). She's more mellow as scum. And I think I'm seeing that in her posts in this game.

This is just to jot down stuff, ill make a case with specific quotes tomorrow, but this is basically an outline.

I agree that she is more passive than usual in this game.

I don't think the forming of a town read on you based on the few posts is scummy, but I agree that it's a bit odd she has not yet stated her opinion on me, given that she has offsite experience with me. I have one thing to mention regarding this tho... I've talked to her a lot about my scum game and how I feel like I'm particularly good as scum. It could be that she is afraid of forming a town read on me and being wrong because of this. If that's the case it would be a town tell, obviously.

I don't think it's particularly strange that she doesn't have a vote down. In fact, I don't have a vote down myself, and I don't really throw around with my votes all that often. However, I also dislike the vote on page 2. That seemed very much unlike her to me and of all the things you mention, that's probably the one that means the most to me.

Calling out Lurker was odd to me. Not because she didn't call out the other people, but because calling out anyone at this point - with so long until deadline - seems forced.

[buldermar]

I'm a little uncomfortable with the extent of white-knighting that buldermar has done.

I think I've been pretty accurate with what I've said - at least I know I've tried to. What specifically makes you uncomfortable?

[buldermar]

That doesn't even remotedly answer my question.

[buldermar]

And I'm going to simply disregard your "I changed my style and expect to get mislynched" comment. I know you're capable of playing loose and pretending to not care as scum.

[buldermar]

I'm a little uncomfortable with the extent of white-knighting that buldermar has done.

I think I've been pretty accurate with what I've said - at least I know I've tried to. What specifically makes you uncomfortable?

That you're doing it at all. The hyperfocus on me and what I'm posting is distracting from what I'm supposed to be doing, but there's very little else going on in the thread to get my teeth into atm.

I didn't instigate the hyperfocus on you. If anything I attempted to illuminate how it wasn't justified objectively speaking - at least at the time.

[buldermar]

Who specifically do you want as an alternative lynch because I haven't seen you scum reading anyone

Your reply looks mostly fair to me

Pedit: and these changes specifically = ?

It just looks like you're giving up now

Pedit: ok
Hi bacon

Yeah I've seen her do this give up thing as both scum and town so pretty sure it's null. She also sometimes self-vote as both alignments.

I'll reread the first couple of pages and see if something stands out, but I'm not sure that I can give you anything.

[buldermar]

Oh hey there :3

Vote: Sotty

When you take into consideration the stupid question pitoli posed later on and compare it to the opportunity of jumping on the ff wagon at this time, this actually looks town to me. I think scum-pitoli would probably be more likely to go for the wagon-option.

This is all on the premise that pitoli is actually a noob and isn't faking shit, ofc.

[buldermar]

Well, after reading again I'd be up for an FF lynch, given that he's quite happy to allow you to pick his vote for him whilst town reading you with very weak reasoning which you have rebutted, and has been obstructive to the production of offsite meta, which whilst it could read as null, reads to me as scum deliberately impeding an investigation on them.

UNVOTE: Orcinus

VOTE: FF

I've already pointed this out, but I didn't like the being obstructive part of this post. It seems like such an easy thing to use as an excuse to place a vote.

[buldermar]

vote Syryana

This looks really bad at first glance, but he seemed to joke a lot around later on in posts IIRC, so it may just be that he doesn't really play the "give reasons for what you do" style of this game.

[buldermar]

For the record the second pedit should be at very bottom, formatting error

And hi Buldemar you can stop giving me meta I don't trust it unless I see it myself sorry :S and I don't really have a strong town read on you

Pedit (so many pedits): okay wait pitoli's wagon is shit though.

Pedit: yeah.

I think it's pretty important that I do give you the meta because you'll be able to use it when/if I die.

[buldermar]

I had pitoli down as newb scum/town before the game even started because of how she signed up for the game

In that case he's my 2nd biggest town read after you.

[buldermar]

I'm a little uncomfortable with the extent of white-knighting that buldermar has done.

I think I've been pretty accurate with what I've said - at least I know I've tried to. What specifically makes you uncomfortable?

That you're doing it at all. The hyperfocus on me and what I'm posting is distracting from what I'm supposed to be doing, but there's very little else going on in the thread to get my teeth into atm.

I didn't instigate the hyperfocus on you. If anything I attempted to illuminate how it wasn't justified objectively speaking - at least at the time.

No you didn't instigate it. I'm not sure you've done me any favors, though.

You have reads on anybody else besides orcinus and me? Did I miss something?

jesus christ stop posting and let me submit my post

I'm not trying to do you favors, I'm trying to make sure that you're not potentially getting mislynched for some stupid reason that I know isn't true.

I've mentioned at least pitoli, Delta and Nero in addition to you and orc. I only feel reasonably certain about orc and pitoli being town, though.

[buldermar]

Pedit: why is pitoli town, scapegoat wagon?

If this question is directed at me I'm not sure I understand it.

[buldermar]

Pedit: why is pitoli town, scapegoat wagon?

If this question is directed at me I'm not sure I understand it.

yeah idk either I think I was trying to ask why you thought pitoli was town. All I said was that the wagon on him was shit, so my reasoning was actually that since the people on the pitoli wagon are more likely to be scum, pitoli thus has a lower chance of being scum. Is that remotely similar to what you were thinking?

Also ff's interaction to the pitoli wagon (casual "oh yeah I can dig that") is inconsistent with her scum hunting. And once more, her lack of scum reads is worrying.

She talks about there not being much to "bite her teeth into". But town-FF would create interactions to get info. She seems removed from this game. And I think the lurker call out was an attempt to remedy that...?

Did you read my post 171?

[buldermar]

someone else vote pitoperson

You remind me of Majiffy.

[buldermar]

Pedit: why is pitoli town, scapegoat wagon?

If this question is directed at me I'm not sure I understand it.

yeah idk either I think I was trying to ask why you thought pitoli was town. All I said was that the wagon on him was shit, so my reasoning was actually that since the people on the pitoli wagon are more likely to be scum, pitoli thus has a lower chance of being scum. Is that remotely similar to what you were thinking?

Also ff's interaction to the pitoli wagon (casual "oh yeah I can dig that") is inconsistent with her scum hunting. And once more, her lack of scum reads is worrying.

She talks about there not being much to "bite her teeth into". But town-FF would create interactions to get info. She seems removed from this game. And I think the lurker call out was an attempt to remedy that...?

Did you read my post 171?

I did.

I was asking orc specifically because his response to me made it seem like he didn't.

[buldermar]

Yea I was about to make a comment about that..

[buldermar]

I was about to say that I oppose policy lynching but if everyone else looks town then the best thing may be to lynch one of the inactive players. But there's still a lot of time left, so let's wait and see what happens.

I don't really read you as town, but perhaps I have too high expectations of you as town based on your offsite performance.

[buldermar]

post

Roger that.

[buldermar]

Could be Nero, but what a crappy way to play as scum. There's no glory trolling mafia games.

If it comes down to that, I'd rather lose to someone else than him lol.

[buldermar]

Could be Nero, but what a crappy way to play as scum. There's no glory trolling mafia games.

You are treading in unsteady waters, quit the insulting.

Nero, have you made any observations in this game that you'd like to share with us?

[buldermar]

Scum pool [pitoli, fferyllt, Syryana, Lurker]

What is your exclusion of scot from the scum pool based on?

[buldermar]

Sry, Sotty *

[buldermar]

Scum pool [pitoli, fferyllt, Syryana, Lurker]

What is your exclusion of scot from the scum pool based on?

I have sources.

This is one of these moments where I wish that the "must play to your win condition" rule was a bit more well-defined - it may have been handy.

[buldermar]

Good, because I was just about to ask the mod for a clarification of the rule.

[buldermar]

Actually, I don't like the sound of post 214 at all. Why would you suddently quit the trolling mode only to promise to clarify on day 2?

VOTE: Nero

[buldermar]

I think the term is usually used to describe a lynch that happens long before deadline

and

rapidly, but I could be wrong.

[buldermar]

Actually, I don't like the sound of post 214 at all. Why would you suddently quit the trolling mode only to promise to clarify on day 2?

VOTE: Nero

That wasn't trolling mode? Rereading.

Sarcasm translates really poorly to my native language and sometimes I misinterpret things. What was the trolling aspect of that post? It looked quite serious to me.

[buldermar]

I think the term is usually used to describe a lynch that happens long before deadline

and

rapidly, but I could be wrong.

Depending on what "long before" means, then I think I'm correct in describing the KBW wagon in that nightless game as a potential quicklynch.

I still havn't read the game and am not going to do so tonight either.

[buldermar]

Ya that looks bad too.

[buldermar]

Oh Majiffy is reading along. Hi hotguy!

[buldermar]

Sorry AP, you can use my post if you wish.

[buldermar]

Personally I’m liking Buldermar for scum, only because he keeps going on about how valuable Ffery’s going to be. It feels like he’s defending her experience/ability rather than her posts right now.

Indeed I am, but why does it make me scum?

[buldermar]

I guess that means that right now I cautiously have you as town.

so yeah, not feeling so towny about buldermar at the moment.

What changed?

[buldermar]

VOTE: buldermar

You're going to have to show me how this sudden change in opinion could possible come from town.

VOTE: ff

[buldermar]

I've never been "so certain" that you're town. In fact, I've at no point in this game thought you're more-than-average likely of being town. I've defended you because you were being attacked for reasons that I found silly, and I've advocated at least postponing lynching you because you're a valueable asset as town.

I didn't "back down" about your townishness, I looked into the points orc raised and some of them were new and not fallacious. I hadn't ever argued that I thought you were town because

I never had a town read on you in the first place.

You

are

in my opinion the strongest town player by far in this game and you

are

in fact the strongest town player I know of. You

did

succesfully nail four scum players on day 1 based on very few posts before you were night killed on night 1. I must say that, at the very least, the idea of using objective facts that I've pointed out as an incentive to consider me scum is quite creative.

I've been speculating for the past hour about one thing that was bothering me about your line as scum. I couldn't figure out exactly why you chose now to supposedly having reread the thread and suddently change your read on me for apparently no reason. I just now found out.

Personally I’m liking Buldermar for scum, only because he keeps going on about how valuable Ffery’s going to be. It feels like he’s defending her experience/ability rather than her posts right now.

I bet you saw this and thought that now would be a good time to push my lynch. Then you conveniently made first one post 235 and 236 to set things up and then later - still without me posting anything in the meantime - fired the bullet that is post 254 (which logically should have been fired right away at post 235, but you thought that would look too suspicious).

We can lynch ff now. I'm sorry that I've perhaps been too reluctant to go for it previously. Also lol@ you trying to

raise-white-flag

gambit for a second time.

[buldermar]

Also: reread<-- the most overused excuse as scum to suddently conveniently change ones read to fit how the game evolves.

On a sidenote: ff-Nero team currently looks to be the most likely ff-scum team permutation.

[buldermar]

Are you insinuating that you expected to get voted by me?

[buldermar]

buldermar, me why you were willing to pass on my lynch today on spec earlier while having a scum read on me per post 157.

If this is a question then I'm not sure I understand it.

[buldermar]

If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll self-vote after I have one last chance to interact with buldermar. If I'm wrong about him, I'll retract my scum read before I flip.

I don't often lecture you, but in this situation I'd say that self-voting is considerably anti-town as you effectively deprive town some information that could have been obtained from vote analysis.

I'm off to bed soon, but I'll respond to every question you may have as detailed as possible when I wake up.

[buldermar]

buldermar's pushing to keep me alive today despite having a scum read on me, and saying he'd rather go with some other (unspecified at the time) lynch looked pretty horrible in reread. I'm talking specifically about post 157. This was all on spec, apparently assuming I'd be as successful spotting scum day 1 among players I'm mostly unfamiliar with if I'm town.

This is a misrepresentation and I really can't see a way for you to legitimately think that it isn't. 157 was specifically a response to post 154 in which orc asked me:

Buldemar, fear of mislynching completely aside, do you think fery is lean town or lean scum? I think you're letting that cloud your judgement too much. Yes, we should do risk/reward analysis, but I don't think you're giving the fery case a fair chance in your head.

I never assumed that you'd be

as

succesful; I said I'd consider you the strongest town player by far. In fact, I call you out on this bullshit right now: point to the post in which I explicitly or implicitly state that you would be as good in this crowd as in your home setting, please.

[buldermar]

vote fferyllt

i'm fine with it

UNVOTE:

I'm not backing off the wagon or anything, but there's no disadvantage to letting her conversate with me first.

[buldermar]

Nero could go in the Unsure leaning scum group, but a couple of his posts did ping hard enough to draw my vote earlier so I'm leaving him in that pile. Deltabacon bothers me almost enough to put him in the scummy pile.

The thought crossed my mind that Lurker and Nero could be the same person using two accounts.

Maybe I've missed it, but why is pitoli in the town pile? I agree that he's town, I just don't recall you having stated why you think so.

[buldermar]

The thought crossed my mind that Lurker and Nero could be the same person using two accounts.

If this is a serious concern then you should in my opinion contact the admin. It's a serious breakage of rules.

[buldermar]

Then you think Kara would be a scum safe claim rather than a town role. And you think that I would have grabbed what would have to be about the best safe claim imaginable and then not come up with an awesome night action or passive power based on her wide array of special abilities and angelic origins.

This is just preposterous. You can't make the decision X and in the same breath claim that you're town because you didn't make the decision Y.

[buldermar]

If I were scum about to be day 1 lynched and going with a vanilla safe claim (which would be dumb based on site meta but that's kinda beside the point) I wouldn't have wasted this name.

Same applies to this.

[buldermar]

The bolded in this post 157:

I agree on enough of your points to lean scum, but I just can't stand the thought of mislynching her specifically. You're probably right that I'm being a bit biased and I'll try not to, but I think we should seriously consider lynching someone else for at least day 1.

Here is my concerns:

Np

It's 1am and I just read through ff's only other scum game. This isn't my summarize case but I'm more convinced than ever that FF is scum.

-Ff seems to be more passive and just seems to be less engaged. This is reflected in how FF dealt with Nero.
-Why did she form such a strong read on me from literally 4 one line RVS posts--but not anyone else? Why hasn't she an opinion on Buldemar, who I assume she has offsite experience with? Where is her vote, her other reads? If she's such a strong town player and her 4 vote take it to the grave read on me isn't out of the ordinary, it's strange that she doesn't have a vote down.
-She's been less confrontational, and have expressed very few (if any?) original ideas
-I dislike the syryana vote on page 2. I don't see the pro-town intentions behind it, I don't like how she didn't follow it up
-The KBW thing still confuses me. Why are you referring to it, since you bought it up in reference to a quicklynch? Day 1 of our game was the furthest thing from a quicklynch, ever.
-She's calling out lurker for "needing more content". Don't you need more content from a lot of people (pitoli, etc)? Why singling out lurker, and this insinuates that you don't need more content on anyone else (or at least have enough to work with). I've yet to see an influx of reads from you

And everything previously mentioned

My reading of FF's game really only gave me one thing (well, three, and I'm going to save the other two for later). She's more mellow as scum. And I think I'm seeing that in her posts in this game.

This is just to jot down stuff, ill make a case with specific quotes tomorrow, but this is basically an outline.

I agree that she is more passive than usual in this game.

I don't think the forming of a town read on you based on the few posts is scummy, but I agree that it's a bit odd she has not yet stated her opinion on me, given that she has offsite experience with me. I have one thing to mention regarding this tho... I've talked to her a lot about my scum game and how I feel like I'm particularly good as scum. It could be that she is afraid of forming a town read on me and being wrong because of this. If that's the case it would be a town tell, obviously.

I don't think it's particularly strange that she doesn't have a vote down. In fact, I don't have a vote down myself, and I don't really throw around with my votes all that often. However, I also dislike the vote on page 2. That seemed very much unlike her to me and of all the things you mention, that's probably the one that means the most to me.

Calling out Lurker was odd to me. Not because she didn't call out the other people, but because calling out anyone at this point - with so long until deadline - seems forced.

That was before you did your little stunt.

[buldermar]

buldermar's pushing to keep me alive today despite having a scum read on me, and saying he'd rather go with some other (unspecified at the time) lynch looked pretty horrible in reread. I'm talking specifically about post 157. This was all on spec, apparently assuming I'd be as successful spotting scum day 1 among players I'm mostly unfamiliar with if I'm town.

This is a misrepresentation and I really can't see a way for you to legitimately think that it isn't. 157 was specifically a response to post 154 in which orc asked me:

Buldemar, fear of mislynching completely aside, do you think fery is lean town or lean scum? I think you're letting that cloud your judgement too much. Yes, we should do risk/reward analysis, but I don't think you're giving the fery case a fair chance in your head.

I never assumed that you'd be

as

succesful; I said I'd consider you the strongest town player by far. In fact, I call you out on this bullshit right now: point to the post in which I explicitly or implicitly state that you would be as good in this crowd as in your home setting, please.

I think it

was

implicit in making such a big deal about the game where I did spot 4 scum on day 1 and using that as part of your argument for not lynching me.

I think it's a pretty fucking good reason not to lynch you on day 1 even if you're not expected to be as good in this game, but whatever.

[buldermar]

Nero could go in the Unsure leaning scum group, but a couple of his posts did ping hard enough to draw my vote earlier so I'm leaving him in that pile. Deltabacon bothers me almost enough to put him in the scummy pile.

The thought crossed my mind that Lurker and Nero could be the same person using two accounts.

Maybe I've missed it, but why is pitoli in the town pile? I agree that he's town, I just don't recall you having stated why you think so.

Pitoli's later posts impressed me as coming from a town point of view. The players in my unsure pile have not given me nearly that strong a town impression.

Specifically what?

[buldermar]

My scum game is weak, but I usually come up with a pretty damn good safeclaim when I make one at all. Using an awesome character as a safe claim for a vanilla town role offends my mafia sensibilities. I wouldn't do that.

If you pick a while ball as scum 100 times in a row and suddently pick a black ball and claim that this is indicative of you being town would you agree that it's pretty fucking backwards?

[buldermar]

Ofc you'd use a great fake power role claim if it would keep you alive - which is exactly what you're attempting to make it do right now.

Will read 309 tomorrow.

[buldermar]

Ofc you'd use a great fake power role claim if it would keep you alive - which is exactly what you're attempting to make it do right now.

Will read 309 tomorrow.

Not if I planned to claim to be vanilla.

Jesus.

You're not this dense. You're scum.

To the extent I enjoy this at all, I am enjoying that you've made tomorrow uncomfortable for yourself by bigging up my scumhunting earlier. Good luck taking it back.

Feel free to insult me, but I don't understand how you can possibly think that you can claim something and then at the same time suggest that your claim is somehow indicative of you being town. There is no way for you to prove/disprove that you supposedly planned to claim to be vanilla, so that's utterly irrelevant. Good luck taking what back exactly?

[buldermar]

VOTE: buldermar

Okay?

[buldermar]

If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll self-vote after I have one last chance to interact with buldermar. If I'm wrong about him, I'll retract my scum read before I flip.

I don't often lecture you, but in this situation I'd say that self-voting is considerably anti-town as you effectively deprive town some information that could have been obtained from vote analysis.

I'm off to bed soon, but I'll respond to every question you may have as detailed as possible when I wake up.

It's carefully worded, but there's an assumption in here that I'd be moved by the argument that self-voting would deprive town of information.

I think that's assumption that I'm town.

What the fuck is wrong with you? Even if you're by far the scummiest person in this game it would be extreme if I thought that you'd be more likely to flip scum than town statistically speaking. You know this, and you know I know this, but you conveniently ignore it because you also know that most people just think in absolute terms of "either scum or town", i.e., many people mistakingly think that because someone is more scummy than someone else on day one, that person is also more likely to be scum than town.

That being said, I'm pointing out that you're acting inherently anti-town which, should you turn out to be town, would be something in your game that you can improve on.

[buldermar]

VOTE: Buldermar

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[buldermar]

Re buldermar, do you see what I was getting at in his post about not final-voting myself? I also thought he was being intentionally dense about what I was saying about not wasting a good safe claim on a vanilla town fake role claim if I were scum.

There is no fucking way in hell you actually think I'm being intentionally dense because there is no way that you actually think what ever the fuck you're suggesting about your claim indicating that you're town is logical. You don't waste a "good safe claim" on a "vanilla town fake role claim" if you're a scum who doesn't get lynched because of it - and that's exactly what you're advocating that you shouldn't because of your claim right now. It's absurdly backwards and I refuse to believe you don't realize it.

Will vote you once I've read the last posts in this thread fwiw.

[buldermar]

I felt like he was setting an impossibly high bar for me to meet - the best day I can remember ever playing.

Well it's the first game I had ever played with you and from all our talk on gchat and elsewhere I've gotten the impression that it's fairly indicative of your general level of play. You've said yourself countless times that you feel like you have no way of winning as scum because as soon as you fail to point out scum players succesfully everyone will know that you must be scum. I think you're deliberately trying to make things look as if I've made you something that you're not when I in fact have been accurate about every single thing I've pointed out about you.

[buldermar]

I'm very apprehensive of how quickly we got to L-1 on ffery. The last few pages have been weird honestly and hard for me to read a la ffery's and buldermar's new cases. I like that buldermar at least unvoted whilst not backing down from his position, that makes him seem more town to me than anything else he's done.

Lurker and Nero just seem opportunistic to me, I'd be willing to lynch either of them until they become more open with their reads/reactions to the last couple of pages.

@Sryrana - what made you change your vote so quickly?

@Ffery - I feel like town should fight harder against their own mislynch since you're at least confirmed to yourself, no matter how great your doubts are on another town-looking mislynch. Do you think your lynch would provide the town with the most information?

Never watched BSG so I really don't get the references/significance of claiming Kara, I think that particular point is moot.

I think in general you are right about fighting mislynch. If I am all but certain to be mislynched sooner or later, then sooner may be better, especially if there's something worthwhile to be learned from the bandwagon.

LOL you pretty much confirmed yourself as scum in this post. If you were town and actually considered me scum you'd think that succesfully getting me lynched would close to confirm you as being town. However, if you're scum who pretends to be thinking that I'm scum but actually knows that I'm not you'd make

exactly

this kind of slip, knowing that

even if

you get me lynched, you'll be up next once I flip.

Please attempt to explain yourself out of this one.

VOTE: ff

[buldermar]

Townish

orcinus
pitoli

Unsure:

SafetyDance
Syryana

Unsure leaning scum
Lurker
Deltabacon

Scummy:

buldermar
Nero

Nero could go in the Unsure leaning scum group, but a couple of his posts did ping hard enough to draw my vote earlier so I'm leaving him in that pile. Deltabacon bothers me almost enough to put him in the scummy pile.

The thought crossed my mind that Lurker and Nero could be the same person using two accounts.

Pitoli is null lean town. She hasn't done anything too townie, and her behavior as a whole has been null for me. I have her leanin town because of the terrible wagon

I think Nero is lean scum because town Nero wouldn't quote something he wrote in a scum game

Buldemar...I don't know. I feel like he's town because of his reasoning in catch-up. His vote on you wasn't scummy because I did bring up new points that I hadn't before. It's very possible that that convinced him.

I concur on delta bacon.

Why is lurker lean scum?

that makes no sense whatsoever. surely i'd be more careful over what i quote as scum? and not town?

back to the drawing room for orcinus_theoriginal

Wait, did you just make a post that wasn't just spam and trolling?

[buldermar]

Ofc you'd use a great fake power role claim if it would keep you alive - which is exactly what you're attempting to make it do right now.

Will read 309 tomorrow.

Not if I planned to claim to be vanilla.

Jesus.

You're not this dense. You're scum.

To the extent I enjoy this at all, I am enjoying that you've made tomorrow uncomfortable for yourself by bigging up my scumhunting earlier. Good luck taking it back.

Feel free to insult me, but I don't understand how you can possibly think that you can claim something and then at the same time suggest that your claim is somehow indicative of you being town. There is no way for you to prove/disprove that you supposedly planned to claim to be vanilla, so that's utterly irrelevant. Good luck taking what back exactly?

Safe to say that ff wishes you luck in taking back your comments about fery's scumhunting skills

I think she's an excellent player even if she happens to flip town and thus have been making a poor read on me in this game (as opposed to deliberately having done so).

[buldermar]

If ff flips scum, the votes on buldemar need to be looked at

Which of the two latest votes do you think looks worst?

[buldermar]

I'm very apprehensive of how quickly we got to L-1 on ffery. The last few pages have been weird honestly and hard for me to read a la ffery's and buldermar's new cases. I like that buldermar at least unvoted whilst not backing down from his position, that makes him seem more town to me than anything else he's done.

Lurker and Nero just seem opportunistic to me, I'd be willing to lynch either of them until they become more open with their reads/reactions to the last couple of pages.

@Sryrana - what made you change your vote so quickly?

@Ffery - I feel like town should fight harder against their own mislynch since you're at least confirmed to yourself, no matter how great your doubts are on another town-looking mislynch. Do you think your lynch would provide the town with the most information?

Never watched BSG so I really don't get the references/significance of claiming Kara, I think that particular point is moot.

I think in general you are right about fighting mislynch. If I am all but certain to be mislynched sooner or later, then sooner may be better, especially if there's something worthwhile to be learned from the bandwagon.

LOL you pretty much confirmed yourself as scum in this post. If you were town and actually considered me scum you'd think that succesfully getting me lynched would close to confirm you as being town. However, if you're scum who pretends to be thinking that I'm scum but actually knows that I'm not you'd make

exactly

this kind of slip, knowing that

even if

you get me lynched, you'll be up next once I flip.

Please attempt to explain yourself out of this one.

VOTE: ff

Are we done? I am really surprised that you can see scum in everything I've written in the last 24 or so hours. And I want to say that it is because you are scum, not because you're working from an earlier conclusion.

But, I'm not sure. So I hope the rest of town reaches a certainty that I don't have.

Hey that makes two of us!

[buldermar]

VOTE: Nero

Yeah nice try but you're still getting lynched.

[buldermar]

Aren't you the one who was fussing at me about contemplating a self vote?

Sure. Why?

[buldermar]

Alright, enlighten me then: what changed your read of me so drastically if not hopes of not getting lynched?

Other than that, I agree that Nero should be looked at should you flip town. Actually IIRC I have a question to ask you specifically about Nero, I'll see if I can find it.

[buldermar]

Read from 208 to 219. What exactly did you mean with your comment/question in 219?

[buldermar]

So cutting away the part of your post in which you attempt to make arguments for you being town based on decisions you've just made, you have changed your read on me so drastically because your earlier interpretation of my posts may be wrong, but it's plausible and you felt sure a few hours ago that it was right? What does that even mean aside from "I just happened to change my interpretation"?

[buldermar]

Actually, I don't like the sound of post 214 at all. Why would you suddently quit the trolling mode only to promise to clarify on day 2?

VOTE: Nero

That wasn't trolling mode?

Rereading.

This question?

Nero's post 214 was a blatant insinuation. If what he's insinuating is true, he's intentionally painted a target on his back. So, I strongly doubt it's true. Hence my thinking that it's more trolling.

Alright

[buldermar]

That's pretty much what it means.

So why didn't you just say that?

[buldermar]

Actually nvm that.

[buldermar]

Ugh

UNVOTE:

What's your thoughts?

[buldermar]

orc, could you explain how I'm wrong in 337?

[buldermar]

I'm very apprehensive of how quickly we got to L-1 on ffery. The last few pages have been weird honestly and hard for me to read a la ffery's and buldermar's new cases. I like that buldermar at least unvoted whilst not backing down from his position, that makes him seem more town to me than anything else he's done.

Lurker and Nero just seem opportunistic to me, I'd be willing to lynch either of them until they become more open with their reads/reactions to the last couple of pages.

@Sryrana - what made you change your vote so quickly?

@Ffery - I feel like town should fight harder against their own mislynch since you're at least confirmed to yourself, no matter how great your doubts are on another town-looking mislynch. Do you think your lynch would provide the town with the most information?

Never watched BSG so I really don't get the references/significance of claiming Kara, I think that particular point is moot.

I think in general you are right about fighting mislynch. If I am all but certain to be mislynched sooner or later, then sooner may be better, especially if there's something worthwhile to be learned from the bandwagon.

LOL you pretty much confirmed yourself as scum in this post. If you were town and actually considered me scum you'd think that succesfully getting me lynched would close to confirm you as being town. However, if you're scum who pretends to be thinking that I'm scum but actually knows that I'm not you'd make

exactly

this kind of slip, knowing that

even if

you get me lynched, you'll be up next once I flip.

Please attempt to explain yourself out of this one.

VOTE: ff

Sure, but (from hypothetical town fery's viewpoint) you aren't getting lynched unless fery goes first because there isn't enough support for your lynch

You think that she's arguing that she'll be lynched sooner or later because she rules out any scenario in which I am lynched before her? I'm don't think I can buy that.

[buldermar]

I'm very apprehensive of how quickly we got to L-1 on ffery. The last few pages have been weird honestly and hard for me to read a la ffery's and buldermar's new cases. I like that buldermar at least unvoted whilst not backing down from his position, that makes him seem more town to me than anything else he's done.

Lurker and Nero just seem opportunistic to me, I'd be willing to lynch either of them until they become more open with their reads/reactions to the last couple of pages.

@Sryrana - what made you change your vote so quickly?

@Ffery - I feel like town should fight harder against their own mislynch since you're at least confirmed to yourself, no matter how great your doubts are on another town-looking mislynch. Do you think your lynch would provide the town with the most information?

Never watched BSG so I really don't get the references/significance of claiming Kara, I think that particular point is moot.

I think in general you are right about fighting mislynch. If I am all but certain to be mislynched sooner or later, then sooner may be better, especially if there's something worthwhile to be learned from the bandwagon.

LOL you pretty much confirmed yourself as scum in this post. If you were town and actually considered me scum you'd think that succesfully getting me lynched would close to confirm you as being town. However, if you're scum who pretends to be thinking that I'm scum but actually knows that I'm not you'd make

exactly

this kind of slip, knowing that

even if

you get me lynched, you'll be up next once I flip.

Please attempt to explain yourself out of this one.

VOTE: ff

Sure, but (from hypothetical town fery's viewpoint) you aren't getting lynched unless fery goes first because there isn't enough support for your lynch

You think that she's arguing that she'll be lynched sooner or later because she rules out any scenario in which I am lynched before her? I don't think I can buy that.

[buldermar]

orc, could you explain how I'm wrong in 337?

Ahh.

I went back and read that and I can see why you think that's a scum admission.

I didn't show my work. If that gets my lynched then it's my own damn fault and I won't hoot at you in the postgame. When orcinus didn't express any agreement with me that your argument about my role claim was dumb and forced, and that you'd tacitly admitted you thought I was town in your self-vote lecture, I did a mental reset. That's when my read went from scummy to unsure. That motivated my 337 reply, and it motivated my unvote. I wasn't going to leave you at L-2 overnight.

I don't feel like I'm thinking clearly atm. I'll keep this post in mind and try to work backwards and see if it makes sense, but even if it does I'm not sure it will convince me that it isn't just fabricated. Making this for myself as well.

[buldermar]

VOTE: Nero

Can the three of us truce for the remainder of the day

What in particular made you change your opinion of ff? It feels like you're seing something that I don't because to me she looks more scummy than before especially because of all the self-meta'ing stuff that's supposed to indicate her being town.

[buldermar]

I mean, as much as I would hate to be driving myself out of a correct lynch right now, it would fucking suck if the three of us were town and we lost to like lurker/deltabacon

Buldemar, thoughts?

Idk I'd hate to lose to ff as well. Who would be a logical partner for Nero if we go with the hypothesis of the three of us being town?

[buldermar]

Post 337 actually makes me feel a lot better about buldermar after rereading last night's posts.

Why? I really feel like I'm lacking a believeable explanation for your sudden change in opinion of me that isn't scum-driven.

[buldermar]

buldermar, I am plenty arrogant enough to believe I could either get you lynched today or assure that you're the next lynch after my flip. While convinced of your scumminess I was happy with either outcome but took it as a personal challenge to see if I could get you lynched today.

Without that conviction, it's not going to happen today. And without that conviction, I don't want your lynch to be a foregone conclusion tomorrow.

Tell me why this wouldn't be how you'd portrait things as well as a scum who just realized that she was about to get lynched and therefore had to direct attention elsewhere in order to safe herself? I'm not going to blindly trust that you could have gotten me lynched had you wanted to.

[buldermar]

I'm very apprehensive of how quickly we got to L-1 on ffery. The last few pages have been weird honestly and hard for me to read a la ffery's and buldermar's new cases. I like that buldermar at least unvoted whilst not backing down from his position, that makes him seem more town to me than anything else he's done.

Lurker and Nero just seem opportunistic to me, I'd be willing to lynch either of them until they become more open with their reads/reactions to the last couple of pages.

@Sryrana - what made you change your vote so quickly?

@Ffery - I feel like town should fight harder against their own mislynch since you're at least confirmed to yourself, no matter how great your doubts are on another town-looking mislynch. Do you think your lynch would provide the town with the most information?

Never watched BSG so I really don't get the references/significance of claiming Kara, I think that particular point is moot.

I think in general you are right about fighting mislynch. If I am all but certain to be mislynched sooner or later, then sooner may be better, especially if there's something worthwhile to be learned from the bandwagon.

LOL you pretty much confirmed yourself as scum in this post. If you were town and actually considered me scum you'd think that succesfully getting me lynched would close to confirm you as being town. However, if you're scum who pretends to be thinking that I'm scum but actually knows that I'm not you'd make

exactly

this kind of slip, knowing that

even if

you get me lynched, you'll be up next once I flip.

Please attempt to explain yourself out of this one.

VOTE: ff

Sure, but (from hypothetical town fery's viewpoint) you aren't getting lynched unless fery goes first because there isn't enough support for your lynch

You think that she's arguing that she'll be lynched sooner or later because she rules out any scenario in which I am lynched before her? I don't think I can buy that.

I'm assuming that fery's "certain to be lynched" mentality, which she has expressed numerous times, is supported by meta.

Pedit: I'm so confused.

I've seen her do the raise-white-flag stunt before, but this looked more like a slip where she forgot that she's supposed to not know that i will flip town as scum.

[buldermar]

VOTE: Nero

Can the three of us truce for the remainder of the day

What in particular made you change your opinion of ff? It feels like you're seing something that I don't because to me she looks more scummy than before especially because of all the self-meta'ing stuff that's supposed to indicate her being town.

Paranoia and the realization that we can't win this game if we don't lynch lurkers

Basically we switched positions

I didn't realize before today just how bad the players aside from the three of us are. If we keep fery around for another day or two, we can get a better and more accurate read. The same cannot be said for the lurkers.

Even if fery is scum, we know literally squat about her partners because nobody is giving enough information to analyze. I'm thinking that we'll learn more about people's alignments if fery were scum from fery than from the people themselves.

I'm kind of assuming that she will not be giving away anything about her partners. From what I know her scum game isn't weak because she's bad per se, but because she's good as town.

[buldermar]

I mean, as much as I would hate to be driving myself out of a correct lynch right now, it would fucking suck if the three of us were town and we lost to like lurker/deltabacon

Buldemar, thoughts?

Idk I'd hate to lose to ff as well. Who would be a logical partner for Nero if we go with the hypothesis of the three of us being town?

Really?

You're assuming I'm getting anything other than trolls from Nero's posting?

His posting is so far alignment null and a barren wasteland where usable information is concerned. Completely.

But he seems to be trying more than Lurker so maybe...

Well ff did point out something that would indicate Nero being scum, and I think he's been pretty obstructive with his trolling - that's different from just lurking and never posting in my opinion.

[buldermar]

Post 337 actually makes me feel a lot better about buldermar after rereading last night's posts.

Why? I really feel like I'm lacking a believeable explanation for your sudden change in opinion of me that isn't scum-driven.

Actually I find her reads being fluid town rather than scum because it shows she's legitimately trying to scumhunt

Just trust me in leaving her alive for us to get a better read on her

I originally didn't care because I thought fery was obvscum, but she's lost that feel. Still scum but not as strong. Surprisingly I find her flop on you townie. 369 and 379 look like a town mindset. But it doesn't matter--I feel like 383 encapsulates my thoughts well at this stage

The thing that's sticking out to me right now is her flail because I don't know which way that points.

I think I'm going to have to reread the entire thread but when my mind is fresh. I'll unvote for now.

UNVOTE:

Just to avoid confusion: I still have a scum read on her.

[buldermar]

buldermar, I am plenty arrogant enough to believe I could either get you lynched today or assure that you're the next lynch after my flip. While convinced of your scumminess I was happy with either outcome but took it as a personal challenge to see if I could get you lynched today.

Without that conviction, it's not going to happen today. And without that conviction, I don't want your lynch to be a foregone conclusion tomorrow.

Tell me why this wouldn't be how you'd portrait things as well as a scum who just realized that she was about to get lynched and therefore had to direct attention elsewhere in order to safe herself? I'm not going to blindly trust that you could have gotten me lynched had you wanted to.

Because I still think I could get you lynched if I tried hard enough. I think that coming from where I was yesterday, it would be easier as scum to stay the course on you than to switch to one of the lurkers/content-free posters. To my mind when scum, going for an "easy" target when there's a credible "tough" target it almost always looks scummy. Giving up on getting you lynched is not what I would have done if my primary motivation was to avoid lynch myself.

You are going to continue to handwave this as "yabbut you would say the same thing as scum." And I'm not going to continue to indulge you. As scum I struggle to find what my town motivation would likely be in a given circumstance. As town, I don't even think about it unless someone starts with "yabbut you would say the same thing as scum".

I don't think I can answer anything to this that isn't repetitive.

[buldermar]

Wait

How about

VOTE: Syryana

I really don't want to lynch ff today buldermar but listen

If ff is scum, syryana is likely to be a buddy because of that awkward interaction

Syryana also did that thin where he voted you sheeping ff

If ff is scum, so is syryana (probs). But syr is also scummy independent of

This is good

I'll have a look.

[buldermar]

If Buldermar continues to lurk, then we can revisit.

Hey look who talks about lurking, lol.

[buldermar]

Kara Thrace, the superstar Viper pilot who died, came back, led the fleet to Earth and killed countless Cylons is a vanilla townie? Pshaw.

Vote stands.

In the interests of giving you last interactions with people

:
UNVOTE:

I don't trust Nero enough to leave you at L-1.

I'll put my vote back if your final interactions don't change my mind.

VOTE: buldermar

I think I can settle for this if we're not lynching ff, but I'd still prefer ff over anyone else in this game.

[buldermar]

Look on fery's side too

Anything in particular, or should I reread all?

[buldermar]

I expected this. Like I said, I was surprised this character is vanilla when I saw my role PM.

Many mods shuffle all roles with flavors so that flavor knowledge does not become advantageous.

[buldermar]

That argument fell on otherwise deaf ears as far as I can tell, unless Lurker also bought it.

I read your argument and thought it to be absurd and backwards - and I still do.

[buldermar]

Right but why would he vote buldermar and switch off you?

I thought the entire argument about role names was stupid and intentionally avoided it

I can't make that assumption. If I did, I would know exactly who the scum was so the entire exercise is a bit pointless

Ok, but I know one piece of that puzzle. So, I'm trying to see the profit in voting buldermar instead of me.

A Syryana lynch argument has to account for not putting a vote on the apparently mortally wounded townie wagon. I can see a possible argument for it, but it's pretty deep in my own self-referentiality.

Looks like I have to connect the dots. here it is

If I all but singlenhandedly build a case and argue convincingly enough to get bulder lynched today and he flips town, who gets lynched tomorrow?

If bulder joins a bandwagon that has a ton of support already and gets me lynched today and I flip town, who gets lynched tomorrow?

If bulder is town, then his mislynch today would almost guarantee my day 2 mislynch as well.

It doesn't work the same way with as much certainty if I'm lynched today and flip town, though I was hoping it would be a slamdunk when I felt sure buldermar was scum.

Maybe he thought about all of that... or maybe he just logged on, noticed that nobody gave a damn about him lurking the crap out of this game, and dropped a vote randomly on one of the active wagons without even considering what he had previously been posting. Is that really so unlikely?

[buldermar]

So if you get enough people to follow you, and you have my cardflip to digest, then who of the players who currently have their votes on me will you think are scum?

With nothing more than what's currently in the thread, I'd have to choose Sotty.

Syrana. Since he tried to cover it up with a pretty bullshit reason. Everyone else at least was pretty open that this was a RVS wagon

Siyrana it is.

VOTE: Syrana

Lol hey cool look at that.

I would've called for a PL right out of a gate is what I meant.

This fixation on small details doesn't seem like scumhunting. What exactly are you doing right now ff and what do you hope to get out of this conversation?

I would love to put FF at L-1 right now but I'm afraid of an unpredictable idiot named Nero.

Inconsistencies grab my attention.

I hope to figure some people out, though I usually better on more sleep. I woke up and got back into this thread around 4 am my time. It's 6 am now. Coffee would probably help.

I liked Syryana's last post.

Quickly (it's 2:30 am), the vote on syryana (we've been though this skipping that)

If ff liked syryana's last post, why did she refer to him as null in all future posts

Maybe because town-ff thought that 88 and 93 looks kinda bad in the context of 79?

[buldermar]

I think it's weird that fery doesn't have a read on syr considering how much he's posted versus say bacon

idk I think there could be a trillion different explanations for that.

[buldermar]

So if you get enough people to follow you, and you have my cardflip to digest, then who of the players who currently have their votes on me will you think are scum?

With nothing more than what's currently in the thread, I'd have to choose Sotty.

Syrana. Since he tried to cover it up with a pretty bullshit reason. Everyone else at least was pretty open that this was a RVS wagon

Siyrana it is.

VOTE: Syrana

Lol hey cool look at that.

I would've called for a PL right out of a gate is what I meant.

This fixation on small details doesn't seem like scumhunting. What exactly are you doing right now ff and what do you hope to get out of this conversation?

I would love to put FF at L-1 right now but I'm afraid of an unpredictable idiot named Nero.

Inconsistencies grab my attention.

I hope to figure some people out, though I usually better on more sleep. I woke up and got back into this thread around 4 am my time. It's 6 am now. Coffee would probably help.

I liked Syryana's last post.

Quickly (it's 2:30 am), the vote on syryana (we've been though this skipping that)

If ff liked syryana's last post, why did she refer to him as null in all future posts

Maybe because town-ff thought that 88 and 93 looks kinda bad in the context of 79?

...why would 88+89 look bad

Why would town ff not say anything about it or engage

He suddently pretended to be very reluctant of voting someone when he wasn't that reluctant previously.

I don't know why town ff would not say anything about it.

[buldermar]

The two have been doing this weird avoiding game and its especially obvious on fery's side

A case on fery got tossed aside completely for a buldermar vote

Ugh and now I want to vote fery again

Damnit

Right now my list of preferences for a lynch would be something like ff>sy>nero>......>pito>you

...... refers to all remaining players.

[buldermar]

orcinus is bleeding town right now but also evidently an idiot

On the contrary, you're a genius.

[buldermar]

and yes i do give a fuck about this game which was why i unvoted on my last fos, nothing in ffery's defence looks townie for me and my votes sticking.

Stop pretending, it's insulting.

[buldermar]

LOOK AT THAT! Crazy. You three are spamming the thread and stifling discussion

and hiding anything others have to stay.

STOP IT. It will not help us. FFS, there's 11 days left.

You've got to be fucking kidding me. I want to insult you so badly that I'm going to refrain from doing it in fear of being modkilled.

[buldermar]

Here, will post a bigger post soon but seriously, calm down, go to sleep or walk the dog or something and then come back and post in the thread. Wtf is with all the pages and quote-walls. Try to stop please, excess of anything is never good. I'm trying to read them but I'd be lying if I didn't say most is probably gone through one ear and out the next. I'm going to have to re-read. It's too much and is hindering reads (if I feel this way then I expect others to be the same having to trawl through 300 posts from the same players).

To start, can ALL three of you (orcinus, ffery, bulder) NOW please summarise what the hell was/is going on, what outcome was achieved out of it all and what your stance is now on ffery (and the others)? Preferably in an easy to read as possible manner so we can find it easily and then MOVE ON. There is no prize for answering this the quickest either, fyi.

Thank you.

Kindly use your hands for something more useful than instructing us to do something less useful.

[buldermar]

Nero have you been keeping up with the thread?

Wait, are you the new troll in this thread?

[buldermar]

Hey ff I feel like I've insulted sufficiently many players in this game for you to get that buldermar-wagon going if you wish.

[buldermar]

Nero have you been keeping up with the thread?

every single post

You should do stand-up comedy.

[buldermar]

yeah, pitoli's town

So let's see... you've been reading every single post in this thread. Yet, out of nowhere, you make the post "yeah, pitoli's town" despite the fact that he have not been posting for a long time.

It almost seems as if you're currently reading very old posts, does it not?

[buldermar]

Nero have you been keeping up with the thread?

every single post

You should do stand-up comedy.

I'm trying to get info out of Nero, do you mind?

Alright, sorry.

[buldermar]

i'd rather play a game with 7 x lurker than buldermoerndsg

Well you're almost doing both atm.

[buldermar]

yeah, pitoli's town

So let's see... you've been reading every single post in this thread. Yet, out of nowhere, you make the post "yeah, pitoli's town" despite the fact that he have not been posting for a long time.

It almost seems as if you're currently reading very old posts, does it not?

no, it just means that you're an idiot

No, it means that you're not only a troll but also a pathological liar and/or scum.

[buldermar]

Bring it on princess.

The entire other player base, heck even the mod, COMBINED doesn't have equal posts to you lot. HOW IS HAVING TO ISO EVERYONE ELSE JUST TO FIND THEIR POSTS CONDUCIVE TO TRYING TO FIND SCUM? Riddle me that one Batman.

You were more useful before you started posting, at least we didn't have anyone attempting to lower the activity further in this game.

My suggestion is that you get your work-shoes on and spend that ~hour it takes reading the thread in its entirety, and that you stop blaming others for your own laziness.

[buldermar]

If you're capable and not trying to be anti-town, it would be extremely fucking useful for someone like you who seems to adopt an "quantity over quality" mantra to actually give us a summarised post of your reads and reactions to the other two so we have a god damn clue about everything you think and where the three of you stand.

If you can't understand that then you need to go back and get a refund on your lobotomy.

I can understand it but really I'm not going to do the work for you. Ask someone nice like ff, she's usually more diplomatic when it comes to this kind of stuff that I am. Alternatively, just read the thread.

[buldermar]

Vote: Nero

I'm seeing no play here that is pro-town or helpful in anyway.

fwiw I entirely agree with this observation. At least it means that you're genuinely interested in understanding what's going on.

[buldermar]

we could just mass claim today

Yeah you'd like that wouldn't you.

[buldermar]

Buldermar, fery, help me out

Go ISO yourself and pick a few posts that you think are representative of important landmarks in the game. Just a few.

I'm aware that you wont like this, but it's not going to happen. It's a game of 20 pages with 9 players most of which hardly have posted - it's a quick read and he can just quit being lazy. If he has questions to specific posts I'm fine with answering them.

[buldermar]

Buldermar, fery, help me out

Go ISO yourself and pick a few posts that you think are representative of important landmarks in the game. Just a few.

I'm aware that you wont like this, but it's not going to happen. It's a game of 20 pages with 9 players most of which hardly have posted - it's a quick read and he can just quit being lazy. If he has questions to specific posts I'm fine with answering them.

Get that rod out of your ass. I've already read the whole thread. It's 3 people walling each other, look at what orc is posting. It's not easy having to read through all that again. It's not lazy to ask for you yourselves to summarise the whole pages. It also helps with reads on yourselves as we can then gauge whether your interpretation of everything is the same as what we think. ITS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING LAZY.

"Its only 20 pages", that more than some games reach at day 3 with 13 players. You three have been posting at a fast rate and you can not tell it is helping. Again, do you think it really helps that those catching up have to ISO the other players not in your ménage trois to remember their posts? No.

Were I talking to you? No. So stfu.

[buldermar]

Buldermar, fery, help me out

Go ISO yourself and pick a few posts that you think are representative of important landmarks in the game. Just a few.

I'm aware that you wont like this, but it's not going to happen. It's a game of 20 pages with 9 players most of which hardly have posted - it's a quick read and he can just quit being lazy. If he has questions to specific posts I'm fine with answering them.

Get that rod out of your ass. I've already read the whole thread. It's 3 people walling each other, look at what orc is posting. It's not easy having to read through all that again. It's not lazy to ask for you yourselves to summarise the whole pages. It also helps with reads on yourselves as we can then gauge whether your interpretation of everything is the same as what we think. ITS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING LAZY.

"Its only 20 pages", that more than some games reach at day 3 with 13 players. You three have been posting at a fast rate and you can not tell it is helping. Again, do you think it really helps that those catching up have to ISO the other players not in your ménage trois to remember their posts? No.

Were I talking to you? No. So stfu.

Alright you're probably town for that.

Vote: buldermar

[buldermar]

Messed up that last post. "Alright you're probably town for that." is my response to his vote.

[buldermar]

I know I said I would like to policy someone before, but I don't think lynching Lurker would give us a whole lot of information regardless of what he flips.

I'd be more okay with the suggested Syryana lynch today since his quickly voting fferylit and then buldermar in the span of one page - yeah that was tripping all sorts of alarms in my head. I think Syr didn't want to look like he was backing down on his possible ffery "investigation", but voted buldermar when he saw the chance. In regards to the ffery+Syryana team, eh it's a bit of a reach. I can't seem to put my finger on why, but ffery's posts still seem to lean town.

But I never like trying to call the scumteam on day one because probability says you're always going to be horribly, horribly off.

This is a bit vague. Syryana is the only lynch that you're okay with? So why are you not voting?

[buldermar]

Pitoli: by that logic, we would never be able to lynch Nero/Lurker because their posts wouldn't give us any information

I feel like SD is town

Pedit: ninja'd

I do too - mostly because of 512.

[buldermar]

Messed up that last post. "Alright you're probably town for that." is my response to his vote.

Thoughts on his t/s list?

I probably missed it because I was getting sick of his complaining. I'll find it now.

[buldermar]

Scum in: buldermar, fferyllt, orcinus_theoriginal
Possible scum in: nero, Lurker
No idea: pitoli, Deltabacon, Syryana

It looks as if he listed the players according to level of activity, lol. Idk, I've gotten into a shitty mood and I'm probably not of much help for tonight. Imma head off to bed and have a fresh look at things tomorrow.

[buldermar]

yeah that. (re SD)

Could you just clarify exactly what this means?

[buldermar]

Alright, thanks and goodnight.

[buldermar]

After reading ff's claim and thinking about it, I decided that it's unlikely to be made up. Bulder's probably gonna shit on me for this, but I don't see scumFF dropping a name like Kara when pretending to be a VT. My first thought was "Kara Thrace, VT, lolnowai". Kat, Dualla, Callie, hell even Tori or Ellen Tigh would be a better name drop for a VT. She goes with Kara though, and the more I thought about it the less sense a scum VT claim would use Kara makes. Claim a PR or claim an obvious VT role, but claiming a great possible PR name and claiming VT makes zero sense from a scum perspective.

It makes perfect sense if it prevents you from getting lynched, which is what it presently seems to do. I'm inclined to just disregard it, but I find the fact that she's trying to use it as a town-tell on herself troublesome.

[buldermar]

This led into my Buldermar vote. The guy went from WKing FF hardcore to now (if I'm getting info from his quotewalls correctly) wanting to have her lynched most of all. What most prompted my vote was his apparent obtuseness in dealing with her claim; he seemed to be twisting it to get her lynched at any cost. That and the 180 from WKer to guy with the rope was what prompted my vote at the time.

I think this is a rather biased presentation. I never claimed to have a town read on her in the first place and getting tedious that you, her and possibly others insist that because I point out her skills it necessarily means I think she's town.

[buldermar]

I liked pitoli's responses to her initial wagon and I was leaning towards town, but I really don't like her #517. She calls me opportunistic scum for "voting buldermar as soon as available so it wouldn't look like I was backing off FF". That's an awful case. Opportunistic scum would have left FF at L-1 and waited for a hammer. Not only that, but scum backing off a case to side with the person he made the case against to lynch someone else with no votes on them is madness. Also, even though she says I'm a good idea for a day lynch, she doesn't vote for me. Feels like she's testing the waters with her case before she dives in and votes me.

In short, Pitoli, Nero or Lurker.
VOTE: pitoli

I too didn't like 517. I still don't think pitoli is a good lynch, though.

[buldermar]

I like pitoli for a lynch today, or Nero. Pitoli's keeps saying these scummy things and Nero's one of the most anti-town players I've ever come across.

I'm not as sold on Lurker yet. I played a game with him before and he played a lot like he's doing right now. Want to see his justification on buldermar before deciding.

Nero lynch I'm all down for, but I'm probably slightly biased because he's an obnoxious shithead. Still, I can't wrap my head around why any town player would deliberately play in this obstructive of a manner. It's like he's made it a goal to play as anti-town as possible.

[buldermar]

And if it isn't obvious already, I liked 536.

[buldermar]

Syryana is probably the same alignment as fery

Hmm could you elaborate just a bit more on this? I think I why you'd say this but I want to make sure.

[buldermar]

I'm town.

I seriously don't get why you insist on repeating this over and over.

[buldermar]

Then what did you mean by that post?

He wanted you to read him as either scum or town I think.

[buldermar]

As a side note something that I thought of: if fery were scum it would be very strange of her to town read me given that I'm generally an easy wagon to drive and since fery evidently thinks my town game is decent (her opinion, not mine)

I don't think her town game deviates from her scum game that early on. At least not in this manner.

[buldermar]

VOTE: Nero

I feel like there is little to no chance of ff being scum if Nero flips scum, and I think Nero is looking terrible in the first place.

[buldermar]

pitoli, what do you think of Nero?

[buldermar]

pitoli, what do you think of Nero?

What do you think about lurker>nero

I think lynching Lurker would be close to a policy lynch whereas Nero is deliberately playing in an obstructive manner, depriving town of information for no good pro-town reason. I also think lynching Nero has the potential of clearing ff and I'm not convinced that is also true for Lurker.

[buldermar]

What info are you referring to specifically?

Specifically the information that he refuse to share by not answering questions or trolling when doing so.

[buldermar]

UNVOTE: Nero

If you intend to explain this, now would be an appropriate time.

[buldermar]

lynch me and swear an oath that you'll silently turbo lynch ffery tomorrow if I flip town

I'm wondering if Nero can be considered town for this in the event of a scum-ff flip.

[buldermar]

I wish you two could find more common ground than you have so far.

I wish he'd wake up and agree to lynch you.

[buldermar]

I guess I can have a look at delta.

[buldermar]

You have a point.

VOTE: ff

[buldermar]

Delta looks slightly better than Lurker in my opinion, but it's so close that it's almost not relevant. Either would essentially be a policy lynch.

[buldermar]

I wish you two could find more common ground than you have so far.

I wish he'd wake up and agree to lynch you.

If you're going to waste the next 10 days trying to figure out who could be my scum buddy instead of scum hunting, then I wish he'd agree to lynch me too. Confirmation bias ftl.

Scum hunting as in doing things accompanied by insisting that I only do these things as town or scum hunting as in stating that "I'm town"?

[buldermar]

Though in general I agree that someone using the excuse that "I'd never do something that dumb as scum, so I must be town" is pretty alarming, it's honestly your presence in the game that moves me to think it's genuine. I don't see FFscum making a move like that when she knows you'd be all over her for it. Yes, it's still a WIFOM argument; we could go at this all day and not convince each other. I'm getting a gut town read from it though so I'd prefer not to lynch FF at this time.

As long as you admit it boils down to pure WIFOM you've made a correct logical deduction that ff is yet to make. fwiw I can definitely see scum-ff make a move like this.

[buldermar]

I never said you had a town read on her. I was referring to the number of times you pointed out her skills and that you used it as a reason not to lynch her. In my experience the more you get to know someone, the more they get to know you, and they correspondingly get better at fooling you. My reaction in a situation where a really good player I know is acting strange is paranoia, not "save her she's awesome and if we mislynch her we're losing such a great player." That's what gave me the heebie jeebies about your earlier reactions w.r.t. FF.

In my opinion knowing that she's awesome is important regardless of her alignment.

[buldermar]

And just so you know, Nero lynch is also a PL because for him, intentional trolling may not be alignment indicative, only anti-town. Anti-town and scummy are two different things.

While it is true that anti-town behavior and scummy behavior are different matters, he has also avoided questions in a non-trolling manner which

is

indicative of alignment.

[buldermar]

Oh and syryana is same alignment as fery because if fery town, syryana's suspicions look legit and I trust fery's read, and obviously if fery scum the interaction is too awkward for me to accept

If you really think this is true then not lynching one of them would be utterly retarded.

[buldermar]

As long as you admit it boils down to pure WIFOM you've made a correct logical deduction that ff is yet to make. fwiw I can definitely see scum-ff make a move like this.

Yes, it is pure WIFOM. And I'm going from her site meta. I understand you've played with FF a lot elsewhere?

I've played

some

with her elsewhere and discussed theory with her.

[buldermar]

that hurt my brain to read. I really don't want to get into another protracted slapfest with you. It's kinda humorous that you're slagging me for repeatedly replying "I'm town" to all your posts that boil down to "You're scum".

If you really don't want to get into another protracted slapfest with me, then why are you going into a protracted slapfest with me?

[buldermar]

In my opinion knowing that she's awesome is important regardless of her alignment.

While I agree that knowing a player's competence is good, your description of FF in the early game seemed excessive, to put it mildly.

That's fair, but I think most of you are still underestimating her. In particular, I think orc allowed himself to be manipulated into unvoting her due to a neat little stunt she made in which she suddently changed her opinion of me while insisting that she could have gotten me lynched if she wanted to and therefore must be town.

[buldermar]

Alright, enlighten me then: what changed your read of me so drastically if not hopes of not getting lynched?

Other than that, I agree that Nero should be looked at should you flip town. Actually IIRC I have a question to ask you specifically about Nero, I'll see if I can find it.

If my motivation were to not get lynched I would still be sledging you, because I think I could probably swing another vote or two your direction. My earlier interpretation of your posts may be wrong, but it's plausible and I felt sure a few hours ago that it was right. As town, losing that conviction takes away all interest in trying to swing another vote or two.

"I'm not scum because if I were I'd be trying to mislynch you still."

She does seem to have a lot of "I'm not scum because I would have done X as scum" doesn't she?

That's what I'm saying, and I think it's backwards to do something and then claim to be town beacuse of it in the same breath.

[buldermar]

that hurt my brain to read. I really don't want to get into another protracted slapfest with you. It's kinda humorous that you're slagging me for repeatedly replying "I'm town" to all your posts that boil down to "You're scum".

If you really don't want to get into another protracted slapfest with me, then why are you going into a protracted slapfest with me?

It's a good point. I keep thinking that you'll take it as a scummy admission if I stop replying to you but I don't think you could possibly become more convinced that I'm scum. Maybe we could talk about something else? Like what it would take for you and orcinus to reach consensus on who to lynch? Or what inputs we need from quiet players?

I think orcinus does have a point about Nero's occasional non-obstructive post. I have a question up-thread for SD about Nero. And deltabacon is supposed to be back on the 8th.

It sounds unlikely that we'll get anything from Lurker that is role indicative on day 1, but I should probably read some old threads anyway.

Maybe we can nibble away at some of the uncertainties and question marks.

I think the one thing that stands out to me aside from specific posts is the fact that you've been uncharacteristically inconsistent with your scum reads. I really doubt you can make me change my mind, but I'll at the very least try to read your posts carefully and think about them. I guess I'll try to be less hostile too - mostly I'm just frustrated because I feel like I've pointed out several things pointing towards you being scum that is being overlooked or ignored (although syr does seem to be digging into things now).

I've thought about orc and I reaching consensus and I think it is going to be difficult. Lynching deltabacon or Lurker would logically make sense if I had a town read on you because they would be that much more likely to be scum, but since I don't it really doesn't make sense to lynch either of them when we in my opinion should be lynching you. I'm still open for lynching Nero because I still think he made a scum slip in being inconsistent with his trolling behavior.

I didn't like the fact that pitoli omitted voting when he FoS'ed Syr in 517, but according to Syr it's not alignment indicative and right now I'm inclined to trust that Syr is town and isn't making up falsifiable meta-reads on pitoli (in addition, if Syr was scum it wouldn't make much sense for him to do this in the first place).

[buldermar]

In my opinion knowing that she's awesome is important regardless of her alignment.

While I agree that knowing a player's competence is good, your description of FF in the early game seemed excessive, to put it mildly.

That's fair, but I think most of you are still underestimating her. In particular, I think orc allowed himself to be manipulated into unvoting her due to a neat little stunt she made in which she suddently changed her opinion of me while insisting that she could have gotten me lynched if she wanted to and therefore must be town.

I don't have a town read on fery if that's what you're asking

Do you really think you will have an easier time reading her on day 2 than Lurker or Nero? Because if you don't I really don't understand why your vote is not on her. If you do I'll continue to insist that you're underestimating her skills.

[buldermar]

Lets just clear up where I stand on the whole fery situation and why I don't want her lynch today

If nothing changes, I want fery gone at some point in time. I think she's scummy. Less so than before.

I am, however, unwilling to lynch fery unless I am 100% sure or unless we're heading into lylo or something. This is because of several reasons.

Firstly, keeping fery around gives me a better read not just on her, but also, in the event that she's scum, on other players.

Secondly, we have several players right now that we simply just cannot read. We CANNOT read lurker. We can BARELY read Nero. Bacon is VLA. SD has intellectual lapses.

We need to lynch in lurker and Nero today because we have no way of determining their alliance, no way of ascertaining anything from their posts. This is not true for fery.

Lurker and Nero WILL be lynched at some point in time. Given thei lack of usefulness of their posts, it's best that that lynch happens today

I was under the impression that you were unwilling to lynch Nero. Is this incorrect or correct?

[buldermar]

^^ I think it contrasts pretty strongly with his play so far in this game.

I'd have to agree with this. Additionally, his sudden vote on me suggests that he's deliberately lurking this game (if we go by the hypothesis that his play deviates from his norm). I still think it's an awful basis for a lynch -_-

[buldermar]

pitoli, what do you think of Nero?

What do I think of Nero? I'm confused whether he's actually motivated by his wincondition or not. The occasional non-trollish post by him isn't actually meant to be helpful; it looks more self-preservatory from this angle. I do think it's something scum Nero would do to push the policy lynch onto Lurker.

Thanks.

[buldermar]

I mean, my posting style from some of my early games has changed drastically so a comparison between this and an early town game would paint me as scum.

Comparison isn't valid.

Pedit: just vote lurker.

Wow. I just went and looked at Lurker's more recent ongoings, and

damn

his posting style has changed since the last game I played with him.

VOTE: Lurker

I don't mean to be that obnoxious fucker pointing to rules, but this really is borderline of talking about ongoing games.

[buldermar]

Can you link to the game you are talking about, Syryana.

Don't do this unless it's finished.

[buldermar]

Can you link to the game you are talking about, Syryana.

Street Racers

This is an ongoing game (note that it doesn't matter whether he is alive or dead in the game). I don't personally want you banned, but don't do this.

[buldermar]

Sorry Judge Judy but you don't *decide* that the whole town is lynching based on Policy. That is a terrible assumption and with over a week out from deadline is nothing short of ridiculous.

Guess who's back, back again, guess who's back, tell a friend.

[buldermar]

Idk I read his list as tongue in cheek

But if its serious I'm considering voting him

The aggression towards pitoli looks fake and completely unfounded

That and the joke of a list has me wondering

And what the fuck is wrong with it? Nothing. And all of this is a complete misrep.

The post quoting pitoli was addressed to everyone. I don't think I gave a clear indication one way or the other which way my opinion fell and which one I though was the most likely choice. Thus the hypotheticals. There was no aggression towards pitoli there wasn't even a hint of a FOS. So clean your reading glasses.

The list? It's dead-set simple:

Scum in: buldermar, fferyllt, orcinus_theoriginal

I think there's definite scum here because I don't think your reactions to each other are all coming from town.

Possible scum in: nero, Lurker

I don't like these two and their play styles and their lurking and think its scummy (and Nero is scummy for what he posts too) so can see Scum here.

No idea: pitoli, Deltabacon, Syryana

This is basically "null". Why? Because most of their postings and interactions are hidden behind PAGES of posts of others and I don't (or didn't) have a definite read on them. Do you accept null reads from others? So how is this different?

That is how I have grouped the playerlist. I'm sure you have brain capacity to understand this.

This post looks kind of bad and also counteracts the town read I had that was based on his anger-vote on me.

[buldermar]

You know what's weird about SD?

In all his bile I don't think he's taken a single shot at me.

VOTE: SafetyDance

I was wondering about this and about why scum-SD wouldn't jump on your wagon. What is your explanation(?), because I'm pretty sure it's not the same as mine.

[buldermar]

No he included you in the "list" under "scummy"

I'm putting that in quotations because literally it is too terrible to be the work of even the worst town player.

Like I said his list looks like he just sorted the players according to level of activity. Also, that's an elaborate hidden little insult you have going on there ^^

[buldermar]

Hi buld talk to me about 627

And maybe the SD wagon

Pedit: I do, trust me

I think I did in between the quoted post and this, but let me know if you have any further questions/comments.

[buldermar]

Or don't trust me I don't care

But I'm confident with maybe 80% accuracy that I will be able to correctly deduce fery's alignment given one more day

I trust that you think you can, but not that you can.

[buldermar]

Well okay

VOTE: SafetyDance

I love how you list scum inthe three of us and made no effort to push a lynch, or even specify which of us is likely scum, or even list any evidence for why you think our interactions are forced.

I also have no interest in reading your posts which are just you spewing insults on the page. I've tried being nice to you.

You're right why policy when a scum just appeared in front of us

Good lord

I love how you fail TO SEE WHERE MY VOTE IS.

Good work champ. Keep up the delusions, so I should not bother reading your posts as well?

VOTE: orcinus_theoriginal

Oh lol, you've already lied there, what this, not a quoting a post of mine are you?

Hey guys, just posting quickly after skimming the thread again.

I've got a project due later tonight,

after which you can expect updates on my reads, however murky.

Is this something you find ok? Do you want someone who's hypothetically-town in the game to have "murky" reads that are due to time constraints and having to skim posts? Do you want hypothetical-scum to be able to use "murky" as an excuse for their inaccurate reads?

Asking for help towards clarity, again, is not laziness.

"No aggression towards pitoli"

I'm not the only person seeing this right

No you are not.

Then you're both reading it wrong and misinterpreting it. The "you" is directed to everyone, as I explained, otherwise it doesn't make sense. Do you find it acceptable that someone can have those sorts of reads with all this logorrhea that is happening?

You know what's weird about SD?

In all his bile I don't think he's taken a single shot at me.

VOTE: SafetyDance

Yeah iirc he said he had a town read on you in his entrance. But then something changed?

WHAT HAS CHANGED? Tell me, what the fuck in the world has changed. I think there is SCUM (this isn't plural)

BETWEEN

the

THREE

of

YOU

. So if I have a town read on ff that means I think the most likely candidates are.... (I'll let you figure this out since you pretend to be smart)

I don't think anything's changed. But his insults haven't had a "you're scum" tinge to them for the most part.

Aside from his stated town read, it's almost like I'm not here. The posts of mine that he's quoted/responded to are null wrt alignment IMO.

Why are you lying?

Spoiler: proof

Any suggestions on how to make it a more productive and less long-winded game day?

...seriously, calm down, go to sleep or walk the dog or something and then come back and post in the thread.

Not being on mafiascum 18 hours a day helps too. This isn't EpicMafia, you don't have to always be refreshing.

I have a question up-thread for SD about Nero.

Going back...

SD do you have any comment on Nero's intimations about you?

I don't know, I think he's trying to be bullish towards me because I've voted him, think he's play is shit and this is his (shit) way of dealing with it. He's the low-post, egotistical version of others here in the game.

Yeah, I'm with Orcinus on this one. SD's been super aggressive against everyone for no apparent reason.

Blatant contradiction. Nothing in his "in-between" posts justifies this flip-flop. Forgot he originally had FF as townread. Get the rope.

VOTE: SafetyDance

No there isn't. If I think there's scum IN there, between those three player. I just mentioned this above. I don't think they're all town. If ff is my "town" read out of them then I would start suspecting who? Oh, THE PEOPLE I'M VOTED for. Fancy that.

No reason? I gave the same reason as you did in your update post, I did it in my very first post. There's a lot to get through, I'd have liked it if they tried to slow down and that I wanted their reads of the other two and to try and slow down so other players can get into the game. Then they flew out with the negative reactions and buddying each other.

This post looks kind of bad and also counteracts the town read I had that was based on his anger-vote on me.

Oh look a label 'bad' without a reason.

I also find it amusing that you can suddenly town-read someone based on nothing but a vote but not anything they actually say. Would love to hear the logic behind that one too.

I'll explain either if anyone else is interested, but I'm not doing shit for you.

[buldermar]

You know what's weird about SD?

In all his bile I don't think he's taken a single shot at me.

VOTE: SafetyDance

I was wondering about this and about why scum-SD wouldn't jump on your wagon. What is your explanation(?), because I'm pretty sure it's not the same as mine.

I'm pretty sure I know what your explanation is.

I can think of a few reasons. If the players that were currently under lynch threat are all town then letting town take a policy lynch on some other townie today means that I'm tomorrow's likely mislynch. Also, once I flip I'm predicting a whole lot of finger pointing and recriminations. That's why a couple players distancing from what looks like a town consensus that I'm probably scum is starting to bother me.

I'm also pretty sure you know what my explanation is. However, I don't have a scum-ff explanation for why you'd voluntarily bring up that he has not taken a single shot at you, which bothers me.

[buldermar]

Buld: put him to l-1 or give me your reasons why you aren't

I've been drinking wine and I still have unread posts in this thread.

[buldermar]

Pedit: And you can?

Her false bravado doesn't fool me for I can see her for what she truely is.