Micro 152 - BSG Mafia (Galactica Survives?)

[fferyllt]

Hi guys.

[fferyllt]

Damnit how'd you know I was scum

I'm repressing the urge to post "Interesting".

[fferyllt]

Damnit how'd you know I was scum

Interesting.
VOTE: fferyllt
For not posting "Interesting".

Interesting.

[fferyllt]

Oh hey there :3

Vote: Sotty

Wagon FF please

So this is not a random vote.

Why?

[fferyllt]

No, not scum. Try again.

[fferyllt]

So if you get enough people to follow you, and you have my cardflip to digest, then who of the players who currently have their votes on me will you think are scum?

With nothing more than what's currently in the thread, I'd have to choose Sotty.

[fferyllt]

I think orcinus is town.

[fferyllt]

I think orcinus is town.

Unjustified town reading your accuser

My heart is of steel and I won't be swayed by this.

If you were scum everyone on your wagon so far will be town

IIRC I got a town read off you in the last game almost this fast. You seem to wear your alignment on your sleeve.

I'm not scum. Consider that, even as a hypothetical. Who of the the players voting me is most likely scum?

[fferyllt]

Syrana. Since he tried to cover it up with a pretty bullshit reason. Everyone else at least was pretty open that this was a RVS wagon

That being said I don't believe town ff would give away town reads as easily as that. Last game you were unsure about my alignment all the way until day 2, going scum, then town, then scum.

Vote is now serious

My rethink was really more about Klick than you. I got a town read on you via that interaction over my "interesting" and your random vote. I should have trusted my early read. But new site, bunch of players I didn't know and a game format that I really didn't like.

I hope I'm right about you. And if you get me lynched, which I kinda doubt, I hope that the bandwagon analysis bites scum and not you.

[fferyllt]

Ha. The doubts. They grow.

Only fair after all the middle of the night thread checking I did in that other damn game.

[fferyllt]

Syrana. Since he tried to cover it up with a pretty bullshit reason. Everyone else at least was pretty open that this was a RVS wagon

Siyrana it is.

VOTE: Syrana

[fferyllt]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24994

My first game here I was scum. The other players assumed I was inexperienced. I let them.

[fferyllt]

No. If you need offsite meta to figure me out you might as well build that bandwagon.

[fferyllt]

Not scum. Sorry. I have faith that you'll figure it out.

[fferyllt]

I've declined to provide links every time I've been asked at MS where I've played before. This time is no different.

I'm happy with my current read on orcinus. I agree with his assessment of the early votes on my wagon.

[fferyllt]

Well no FF did it last game when she was obvtown and I think it's townie that she's willing to uphold that belief despite whatever flak she might get for it.

Nero: Good policy lynch, or

great

policy lynch?

Explain the bolded?

[fferyllt]

In post 20, fferyllt wrote:

With nothing more than what's currently in the thread, I'd have to choose Sotty.

Because....?

It looked non-random and opportunistic. I knew why my comment about not posting "interesting" drew orcinus' vote. Nobody else playing this game would without some serious digging.

[fferyllt]

Orcinus I want to know

why

you think he should be PL'd. First game I've played with him.

[fferyllt]

Orcinus I want to know

why

you think he should be PL'd. First game I've played with him.

I'm going to try out a scumtell.

VOTE: fery

Town-fery would've meta'd Nero.

I did some reading. Two recent games. Would take a lot of digging to find whatever this is about. Some hints would help in the search.

[fferyllt]

(and yes this is based on my 5 minute meta of him)

Like literally, his posts are so unsubstantial and trolly it takes 5 minutes to read all 100 of his posts.

I was looking for a game where the two of you played. Reading the recent newibie game I see what you mean about unsubstantial. I'd say obfuscatory though trolly works, too. he was town in that game.

[fferyllt]

Nobody is voting.

VOTE: Nero

Talk.

I've never played with Nero, or else I would've voted him first thing out of the gate.

Hi Nero. Remind me to lecture you postgame.

You

did

vote him first thing out of the gate.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: syryana

[fferyllt]

Lol hey cool look at that.

I would've called for a PL right out of a gate is what I meant.

This fixation on small details doesn't seem like scumhunting. What exactly are you doing right now ff and what do you hope to get out of this conversation?

I would love to put FF at L-1 right now but I'm afraid of an unpredictable idiot named Nero.

Inconsistencies grab my attention.

I hope to figure some people out, though I usually better on more sleep. I woke up and got back into this thread around 4 am my time. It's 6 am now. Coffee would probably help.

I liked Syryana's last post.

[fferyllt]

No. He was a Mafia Goon, if we're reading the same game. Newbie 1342.

Ah. Thanks. Missed the small print strikethru in the OP, though I noticed he stopped posting right before day 1 ended.

That changes things a bit.

[fferyllt]

I just realized that there's a lot of noise about Pitoli's fluff post, but buldermar got no flack at all for posting a "checking in" during the midst of all this noise.

[fferyllt]

I just realized that there's a lot of noise about Pitoli's fluff post, but buldermar got no flack at all for posting a "checking in" during the midst of all this noise.

I should think the reasoning for that would be obvious. Buldermar made a single post saying essentially "I'm here." It's neither town nor scummy IMO; I'm treating it as null until we get more from him.

Pitoli's post on the other hand is neither a first post nor null; she comes in after placing an RVS vote with her inane question: "Why can't wagons be random?" It's terrible, fluffy and completely ignores the interactions between fferryllt and orcinus. The difference: Buldermar's post doesn't read like he's trying to post filler, Pitoli's does. If Buldermar continues to lurk, then we can revisit.

I'm not saying that the short histories are identical. Mostly I'm saying that I'd like some content from buldermar. There is plenty in this thread to think about and interact with. I'm pretty happy that the RVS ended quickly despite my bandwagon being the proximate cause.

[fferyllt]

I think orcinus is town.

Because of #18, or?

more of an "or". I think it was the confirmation that his vote wasn't random that nailed it for me. As I was writing post 20 I had already implicitly assumed I was replying to town-orcinius. Post 21 was making it explicit.

[fferyllt]

I don't think my track record reading unknown players is nearly as good as all that. We'll see. I do hope to help my team win, no matter how short my stay in the game.

My team is town.

[fferyllt]

I don't think my track record reading unknown players is nearly as good as all that. We'll see. I do hope to help my team win, no matter how short my stay in the game.

My team is town.

What's Buldemar?

He's hard to read, though I've gotten him right once or twice. I don't have an opinion yet.

[fferyllt]

Lol hey cool look at that.

I would've called for a PL right out of a gate is what I meant.

This fixation on small details doesn't seem like scumhunting. What exactly are you doing right now ff and what do you hope to get out of this conversation?

I would love to put FF at L-1 right now but I'm afraid of an unpredictable idiot named Nero.

Inconsistencies grab my attention.

I hope to figure some people out, though I usually better on more sleep. I woke up and got back into this thread around 4 am my time. It's 6 am now. Coffee would probably help.

I liked Syryana's last post.

Do you think anything about Syryana specifically writing out "Mafia Goon" as opposed to just saying "scum"? I have some thoughts about it, but I'd like to hear yours first.

He's new to the site I think but obviously has mafia experience from his posts.

Hm. Remembering my first game here, I was a lot more careful of local terminology than I've been in later games. I was scum, and that played into my punctiliousness.

[fferyllt]

No matter how quick and how good FF's reads are, #26 was overkill.

If I wound up quick-lynched overnight at your behest without a chance to dump my nascent reads, I wanted my town read on you well cemented in memories.

You're welcome.

[fferyllt]

I use my vote to try and get town out of RVS as fast as possible.

I find this reasoning a bit silly. RVS isn't mandatory. If you think it is something to be "moved out of" why would you instigate it in the first place?

Big words from someone who avoided RVS.

How do you start a game, tell me please

I didn't avoid RVS, I just wasn't around. However, if I was around I would explicitly have declared it over because it's inherently anti-town and a massive waste of time.

More or less any other way of starting the game is superior to writing a post that contains absolutely nothing that has any potential what-so-ever to be alignment-indicative. I could have written about my favorite colour and it would have been more useful.

Right but then town would never get into the serious stages of the game.

The game only starts when an interaction such as that between me/ff (arising from random votes mind you) causes an alignment-indicative response to arise. Every game starts in RVS, and it ends when something alignment-indicative comes up. My goal is to make that period in between as short as possible.

But this is a pointless discussion.

No matter how quick and how good FF's reads are, #26 was overkill.

If I wound up quick-lynched overnight at your behest without a chance to dump my nascent reads, I wanted my town read on you well cemented in memories.

You're welcome.

If you're actually town, remind me to come back to this post game.

Were you genuinely worried about a quicklynch?

After the Nightless game and that wagon on KBW?

It crossed my mind.

[fferyllt]

[quote="In post 126
Which game is that?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=26455

At my partner's urging I started a counter-bandwagon on a player, though I preferred the bandwagon that was already building. That bandwagon was off like a shot late at night my time. I unvoted when I thought it got to L-2 IIRC. Neither bandwagon was on scum as it happened. This game is one of the reasons why I doubt my scumhunting is as pinpoint here as it is in an environment where I know all the players well.

[fferyllt]

She is by far the best town mafia player I know of and it's not even close. She already indirectly confirmed that she correctly pointed out an entire scum team of four people on day 1 based on very few posts in this thread - that should at least mean something so long as you don't think we have some weird conspiracy going on.

Is this referencing some game that I should know about? Because I'm having a tough time figuring what this
means.

PEdit: Um. Nekoko wagon was "on scum". Or did you mean neither scum were on the bandwagon?

i was referring to the earlier wagon...kbw vs fuduzn.

[fferyllt]

Need more content from Lurker, obviously.

[fferyllt]

Lol hey cool look at that.

I would've called for a PL right out of a gate is what I meant.

This fixation on small details doesn't seem like scumhunting. What exactly are you doing right now ff and what do you hope to get out of this conversation?

I would love to put FF at L-1 right now but I'm afraid of an unpredictable idiot named Nero.

Inconsistencies grab my attention.

I hope to figure some people out, though I usually better on more sleep. I woke up and got back into this thread around 4 am my time. It's 6 am now. Coffee would probably help.

I liked Syryana's last post.

Do you think anything about Syryana specifically writing out "Mafia Goon" as opposed to just saying "scum"? I have some thoughts about it, but I'd like to hear yours first.

He's new to the site I think but obviously has mafia experience from his posts.

Hm. Remembering my first game here, I was a lot more careful of local terminology than I've been in later games. I was scum, and that played into my punctiliousness.

I was thinking that if I was new to this game and I had just received the role "Mafia Goon" in a PM, I would without thinking about it refer to that role by its exact name as opposed to referring to it as scum. We managed to confirm a VT in a different game because the new player referred to his role as Townie as opposed to VT. In the PM, the role was called Townie. Since the OP post of the game did not contain role PM's we were thinking that it would be highly unlikely to a scum to come up with the specific role name "Townie" as opposed to VT, which is more common terminology.

Interesting. Maybe. I'd be more comfortable making a townie call on role pm wording that than a scum call. The cardflip in the game we were talking about specified "Mafia Goon".

[fferyllt]

Np

It's 1am and I just read through ff's only other scum game. This isn't my summarize case but I'm more convinced than ever that FF is scum.

-Ff seems to be more passive and just seems to be less engaged. This is reflected in how FF dealt with Nero.
-Why did she form such a strong read on me from literally 4 one line RVS posts--but not anyone else? Why hasn't she an opinion on Buldemar, who I assume she has offsite experience with? Where is her vote, her other reads? If she's such a strong town player and her 4 vote take it to the grave read on me isn't out of the ordinary, it's strange that she doesn't have a vote down.
-She's been less confrontational, and have expressed very few (if any?) original ideas
-I dislike the syryana vote on page 2. I don't see the pro-town intentions behind it, I don't like how she didn't follow it up
-The KBW thing still confuses me. Why are you referring to it, since you bought it up in reference to a quicklynch? Day 1 of our game was the furthest thing from a quicklynch, ever.
-She's calling out lurker for "needing more content". Don't you need more content from a lot of people (pitoli, etc)? Why singling out lurker, and this insinuates that you don't need more content on anyone else (or at least have enough to work with). I've yet to see an influx of reads from you

And everything previously mentioned

My reading of FF's game really only gave me one thing (well, three, and I'm going to save the other two for later). She's more mellow as scum. And I think I'm seeing that in her posts in this game.

This is just to jot down stuff, ill make a case with specific quotes tomorrow, but this is basically an outline.

I think I'm more relaxed. I'll probably find my zone in a few more games. The intensity of short games that wrap up in a week or less just doesn't work here. I keep getting told to stfu. Not that I listen.

I'm a little uncomfortable with the extent of white-knighting that buldermar has done.

[fferyllt]

I expect to get lynched early as town more than is my "normal" at MS, in part because my play style evolved elsewhere and it's going to change as I get used to this site. changes are almost always suspicious in mafia. I think my insistence on earning my reputation here instead of importing it from elsewhere is also going to cause trouble, but I'm ok with that.

[fferyllt]

I'm a little uncomfortable with the extent of white-knighting that buldermar has done.

I think I've been pretty accurate with what I've said - at least I know I've tried to. What specifically makes you uncomfortable?

That you're doing it at all. The hyperfocus on me and what I'm posting is distracting from what I'm supposed to be doing, but there's very little else going on in the thread to get my teeth into atm.

[fferyllt]

That doesn't even remotedly answer my question.

It wasn't an answer to your question.

It was to orcinus. Self meta and all that, but I'm still playing transparently here.

[fferyllt]

Who specifically do you want as an alternative lynch because I haven't seen you scum reading anyone

Your reply looks mostly fair to me

Pedit: and these changes specifically = ?

It just looks like you're giving up now

Pedit: ok
Hi bacon

I think the wagon on pitoli has merit but I'm not going to add to it until she(?) comes back and responds to her wagon.

Nero's going to be a fucking irritant, but it's a 9 player game. If he's not scum I don't want to lynch him.

[fferyllt]

I'm a little uncomfortable with the extent of white-knighting that buldermar has done.

I think I've been pretty accurate with what I've said - at least I know I've tried to. What specifically makes you uncomfortable?

That you're doing it at all. The hyperfocus on me and what I'm posting is distracting from what I'm supposed to be doing, but there's very little else going on in the thread to get my teeth into atm.

How about 30 posts by Buldemar who you don't have a read on and who (more importantly) you aren't TRYING to get a read on

Like this is the prime example of the passiveness and lack of original opinions I was talking about

Pedit: nobody hyperfocused you

Pedit: okay
I think for ff, not paying attention is a scum tell

In this game, I know buldermar's play style better than anyone's, but he's IMO difficult to read. It will take a lot to convince me he's town.

[fferyllt]

I'm a little uncomfortable with the extent of white-knighting that buldermar has done.

I think I've been pretty accurate with what I've said - at least I know I've tried to. What specifically makes you uncomfortable?

That you're doing it at all. The hyperfocus on me and what I'm posting is distracting from what I'm supposed to be doing, but there's very little else going on in the thread to get my teeth into atm.

I didn't instigate the hyperfocus on you. If anything I attempted to illuminate how it wasn't justified objectively speaking - at least at the time.

No you didn't instigate it. I'm not sure you've done me any favors, though.

You have reads on anybody else besides orcinus and me? Did I miss something?

jesus christ stop posting and let me submit my post

[fferyllt]

Pedit: and these changes specifically = ?
Fery this was at your 159

Slowing down. Less focus on meta and more focus on objective/relative tells. One of my takeways from the town games I've played so far is that for me, meta has to be experienced. The pace of the game and what I would have been thinking at the point when the post got made is completely lost in an ISO wall. I discovered on a cardflip in a game where I was already dead that I let meta obscure something I saw but decided not to focus too much attention on because "they've done that before as town".

[fferyllt]

Syrana. Since he tried to cover it up with a pretty bullshit reason. Everyone else at least was pretty open that this was a RVS wagon

That being said I don't believe town ff would give away town reads as easily as that.

Last game you were unsure about my alignment all the way until day 2

, going scum, then town, then scum.

Vote is now serious

Re what I bolded, this is exactly what I mean by experienced meta. I now have my impressions of you from that game along with your cardflip. And that's what made me comfortable with an early town read - your paranoia about me, your reaction to my lack of "interesting" were all there in my mind when I wrote my #20 reply. I posted it. I looked at it. I saw that I was accepting you as town in the reply. I made it explicit in my next post.

[fferyllt]

So what objective/relative tells led you to a 4-post town read on me

Like. That just seems so off to me

And the fact that you haven't replied to bunch of my posts

Pedit: why is pitoli town, scapegoat wagon?

You post too much.

I don't like the p-edit thing so I'm not going to be adding replies to more recent posts when I post something.

I'm going back through the thread now (see my previous post). I'll get to what I missed. But if your case is that you think I'm playing this game like I played my first game here I'm going to point and laugh. I'll never play another game like that one here. I very intentionally slammed the door on it the minute the mod announced that scum won.

[fferyllt]

After the Nightless game and that wagon on KBW?

It crossed my mind.

I feel like there are fundamental differences between a D2 PoE pre-decided quicklynch and this game.

I can deal with keeping FF around a lot but I would just like to make it known that I have her strongly written down as scum right now.

I've been talking about the competing bandwagons on KBW and Fuduzn during day 1. It was shortly after Svenskt subbed in and all the lover-pairs outed. He was on fuduzn's wagon but wanted a competing wagon. I obliged with a vote on KBW. There was already a vote or two on that wagon but it hadn't gone anywhere. You and Klick almost instantaneously switched to the KBW wagon. I freaked, unvoted and then a bunch of other shit happened and we eventually mislynched fuduzn in part because I was paranoid about Klick and you but preferred to lynch the only pair I could see as part of a 4 person scum team including Klick/you IN CASE I was wrong.

Your play in that game, now confirmed as town-play is some meta that I'll trust because I experienced it. Other meta, I'll go looking for, but I'm not going to weigh it nearly as heavily as I have in other games, and I'm not going to leave an active game thread to go looking for something when I'm not sure what I am looking for. It can wait until things are quieter.

[fferyllt]

Np

It's 1am and I just read through ff's only other scum game. This isn't my summarize case but I'm more convinced than ever that FF is scum.

-Ff seems to be more passive and just seems to be less engaged. This is reflected in how FF dealt with Nero.

More engaged in the thread itself, answering questions. I wanted some indication of what I was looking for first, but I went ahead and took a look, saw a ton of one-liner low content replies. Coming back to the thread, and catching up I saw that your PL talk wasn't based on your own experience with Nero in a game(s) so I feel up to speed on Nero. He's a mafia shitposter. If he's scum we may be more likely to catch him by catching his scum buddy.

-Why did she form such a strong read on me from literally 4 one line RVS posts--but not anyone else? Why hasn't she an opinion on Buldemar, who I assume she has offsite experience with?

My strong read is a testament to my vast experience of one game playing with you. Expect a lot of pointing and laughing from the other side of your monitor once my alignment is known, however that happens in this game. It won't be scum laughing at you. If I'm wrong and you're scum then I'll expect the same.

Where is her vote, her other reads? If she's such a strong town player and her 4 vote take it to the grave read on me isn't out of the ordinary, it's strange that she doesn't have a vote down.

I don't remember being all that quick with my vote in the last game we played. Pretty sure I told you or Klick that I won't be chivvied into putting down a vote before I feel it. I voted Syryana based on your read because you were the only town player on the right track in the Nightless game, and I though some pressure in that direction would be a good thing. I took the vote off when I saw some non-random content that I approved of from him.

-She's been less confrontational, and have expressed very few (if any?) original ideas

I'll have to take your word for it that I'm less confrontational than I was in the early hours of the Nightless game. I remember feeling pretty cautious in that game due to the nightless format and the 2 mislynch leeway.

-I dislike the syryana vote on page 2. I don't see the pro-town intentions behind it, I don't like how she didn't follow it up

I asked you to consider who would be scum on my wagon if I was town and you gave me an answer. I put my vote there. I followed it up with an unvote based on content.

-The KBW thing still confuses me. Why are you referring to it, since you bought it up in reference to a quicklynch? Day 1 of our game was the furthest thing from a quicklynch, ever.

We came really close to a quicklynch when Svenskt subbed in. The final lynch was mostly my doing and I was dead wrong. My takeaway from that game was that I should have listened to you more than most of the other players. I'm pretty much implementing that takeaway despite your total misread on me. I know the changes to my game are confusing. But, my motivation is still driven by my town win condition. If that doesn't eventually become obvious in my play, then I'm failing at the most basic aspect of mafia, and I'll own that and hope it doesn't lead to a town loss.

-She's calling out lurker for "needing more content". Don't you need more content from a lot of people (pitoli, etc)? Why singling out lurker, and this insinuates that you don't need more content on anyone else (or at least have enough to work with). I've yet to see an influx of reads from you

absolutely I need more content from pitoli. Lurker has one post, a random vote. In the current mix, that's by far the least amount to go on.

And everything previously mentioned

My reading of FF's game really only gave me one thing (well, three, and I'm going to save the other two for later). She's more mellow as scum. And I think I'm seeing that in her posts in this game.

I'm happy to know that my scum game looks mellow. It's not. Every post and every night action I make as scum is carefully crafted with one goal in mind - get a scum player to endgame with town players who are likely to mislynch. It's anything but mellow.

This is just to jot down stuff, ill make a case with specific quotes tomorrow, but this is basically an outline.

ok.

[fferyllt]

Pedit: why is pitoli town, scapegoat wagon?

If this question is directed at me I'm not sure I understand it.

yeah idk either I think I was trying to ask why you thought pitoli was town. All I said was that the wagon on him was shit, so my reasoning was actually that since the people on the pitoli wagon are more likely to be scum, pitoli thus has a lower chance of being scum. Is that remotely similar to what you were thinking?

Also ff's interaction to the pitoli wagon (casual "oh yeah I can dig that") is inconsistent with her scum hunting. And once more, her lack of scum reads is worrying.

She talks about there not being much to "bite her teeth into". But town-FF would create interactions to get info. She seems removed from this game. And I think the lurker call out was an attempt to remedy that...?

They have to be around to interact with. Right now, I'm talking to you and buldermar because you're

here

. I think you are doing the same. You're not shaking the trees to get interactions from pitoli or Lurker either.

Nero's here. He's wasting his slot. I'm not going to give him more fuel for useless one-liners. What do you think town should do about him?

[fferyllt]

Pedit: why is pitoli town, scapegoat wagon?

If this question is directed at me I'm not sure I understand it.

yeah idk either I think I was trying to ask why you thought pitoli was town. All I said was that the wagon on him was shit, so my reasoning was actually that since the people on the pitoli wagon are more likely to be scum, pitoli thus has a lower chance of being scum. Is that remotely similar to what you were thinking?

Also ff's interaction to the pitoli wagon (casual "oh yeah I can dig that") is inconsistent with her scum hunting. And once more, her lack of scum reads is worrying.

She talks about there not being much to "bite her teeth into". But town-FF would create interactions to get info. She seems removed from this game. And I think the lurker call out was an attempt to remedy that...?

Did you read my post 171?

I did.

[fferyllt]

buldermar, I'm kinda feeling like the scum players aren't playing yet. :/

[fferyllt]

I guess that means that right now I cautiously have you as town.

[fferyllt]

Could be Nero, but what a crappy way to play as scum. There's no glory trolling mafia games.

[fferyllt]

I was about to say that I oppose policy lynching but if everyone else looks town then the best thing may be to lynch one of the inactive players. But there's still a lot of time left, so let's wait and see what happens.

I don't really read you as town, but perhaps I have too high expectations of you as town based on your offsite performance.

So far, I seem to look more town as the MS games progress. That was actually true of most of my games elsewhere until about 10 months ago. Still making a lot of adjustments, and not all of them are planned.

[fferyllt]

Re "quicklynch" maybe I'm using the term wrong. Does it only apply to the start up of a game day? I have been thinking of any sudden and fast moving bandwagon as a potential quicklynch.

[fferyllt]

Actually, I don't like the sound of post 214 at all. Why would you suddently quit the trolling mode only to promise to clarify on day 2?

VOTE: Nero

That wasn't trolling mode? Rereading.

[fferyllt]

I think the term is usually used to describe a lynch that happens long before deadline

and

rapidly, but I could be wrong.

Depending on what "long before" means, then I think I'm correct in describing the KBW wagon in that nightless game as a potential quicklynch.

[fferyllt]

i've done a quick poe with

townreads on you and ffery

. that puts both the scum in a pool of six. i didn't like sorry, syryana or pitoli's starts and since there was already a vote on syryana i decided to pop another one on.

Scum pool [pitoli,

fferyllt

, Syryana, Lurker]

What is your exclusion of scot from the scum pool based on?

I have sources

.

hmm.

[fferyllt]

Ya that looks bad too.

Yeah, bad enough.

VOTE: Nero

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: Nero

Just wrote up a WoT about buldermar's ambitious expectation setting and where that's likely to lead tomorrow. In the writing, I wondered wtf I'm doing agreeing with his lynch vote. If buldermar's scum, then I kinda don't think Nero is. The other direction doesn't have the same potential associations.

[fferyllt]

so yeah, not feeling so towny about buldermar at the moment.

[fferyllt]

Personally I’m liking Buldermar for scum, only because he keeps going on about how valuable Ffery’s going to be. It feels like he’s defending her experience/ability rather than her posts right now.

Pitoli's wagon is shit.

Who do you want to lynch?

[fferyllt]

what are your curent thoughts about buldermar?

[fferyllt]

Judgement pending

Why did you like pitoli's wagon?

Before she posted this afternoon? because this post pinged six ways from Sunday.

I like her recent posts.

[fferyllt]

Personally I’m liking Buldermar for scum, only because he keeps going on about how valuable Ffery’s going to be. It feels like he’s defending her experience/ability rather than her posts right now.

Pitoli's wagon is shit.

Who do you want to lynch?

Well you sort of

Failing that I want to policy one of Nero and lurker

Do you think that one or both are scum? Because we can't policy lynch everyone who deserves it and win.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: buldermar

[fferyllt]

What happened? Reread happened. Even as it was unfolding in real time, I was uncomfortable with your extreme white-knighting.. Rereading, I kept asking myself how you'd come into the thread so certain that I'm town. And then I realized that your argument wasn't that I was town. As soon as orcinus gathered his case up into one post, you immediately backed down about my townishness. But you handn't ever argued that you thought I was town, just that I'm a strong town player (was it "strongest town player"?) on my home forum as though that should be enough.

Two mislynches are all we get. And I think you're setting up the opportunity to accomplish that: big me up as a bloodhound, let me help push a mislynch today, and then tomorrow lynch me for not finding scum on day 1. Then it's likely lylo depending on how the nights go.

I have a better idea. Lynch me today and then town can decide tomorrow if I might be right about you.

[fferyllt]

I've never been "so certain" that you're town. In fact, I've at no point in this game thought you're more-than-average likely of being town. I've defended you because you were being attacked for reasons that I found silly, and I've advocated at least postponing lynching you because you're a valueable asset as town.

I didn't "back down" about your townishness, I looked into the points orc raised and some of them were new and not fallacious. I hadn't ever argued that I thought you were town because

I never had a town read on you in the first place.

You

are

in my opinion the strongest town player by far in this game and you

are

in fact the strongest town player I know of. You

did

succesfully nail four scum players on day 1 based on very few posts before you were night killed on night 1. I must say that, at the very least, the idea of using objective facts that I've pointed out as an incentive to consider me scum is quite creative.

I've been speculating for the past hour about one thing that was bothering me about your line as scum. I couldn't figure out exactly why you chose now to supposedly having reread the thread and suddently change your read on me for apparently no reason. I just now found out.

Personally I’m liking Buldermar for scum, only because he keeps going on about how valuable Ffery’s going to be. It feels like he’s defending her experience/ability rather than her posts right now.

I bet you saw this and thought that now would be a good time to push my lynch. Then you conveniently made first one post 235 and 236 to set things up and then later - still without me posting anything in the meantime - fired the bullet that is post 254 (which logically should have been fired right away at post 235, but you thought that would look too suspicious).

We can lynch ff now. I'm sorry that I've perhaps been too reluctant to go for it previously. Also lol@ you trying to

raise-white-flag

gambit for a second time.

I had originally intended to sleep on it. But, sleeping on it wasn't going to change my mind. Also, thought that the time zone difference would give you time to fulminate over it a bit, and maybe even get my wagon to L-1 before dawn my time.

Multi-week game days are unnatural.

[fferyllt]

It's hardly an insinuation.

[fferyllt]

You are an expert on all things FF-esque.

[fferyllt]

Find another vote first and I'm quite likely to.

[fferyllt]

Did Nero post something that looks protown? Now

that

could get my paranoia into high gear. Well, to the extent that buldermar hadn't already kickstarted it.

[fferyllt]

Interesting how quiet the thread has gotten.

buldermar, me why you were willing to pass on my lynch today on spec earlier while having a scum read on me per post 157.

[fferyllt]

^^ "tell me"

[fferyllt]

Ok.

I'm Kara "Starbuck" Thrace. Vanilla.

discuss.

[fferyllt]

Yeah, I thought that was interesting. But, so many characters so few slots.

If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll self-vote after I have one last chance to interact with buldermar. If I'm wrong about him, I'll retract my scum read before I flip.

[fferyllt]

I'm not thrilled about being mislynched but I think next time I get a town read after 2 or 3 posts it won't be so freakish looking. All early reads are tentative and subject to revision. orcinus hasn't given me any reason to revise. I think he's town.

buldermar's pushing to keep me alive today despite having a scum read on me, and saying he'd rather go with some other (unspecified at the time) lynch looked pretty horrible in reread. I'm talking specifically about post 157. This was all on spec, apparently assuming I'd be as successful spotting scum day 1 among players I'm mostly unfamiliar with if I'm town.

[fferyllt]

My, this game exploded since yesterday. First off:
UNVOTE:

I like Pitoli's responses because they seem genuine.

Investigation on FF: (I hate abbreviating to FF but I can't remember how to spell the damn thing every time)
I first got an off feeling on FF on Page 2. She got an incredibly fast town read on orcinus (in #21) then followed that up by sheeping orcinus on me (#29). The reason orcinus threw my name out there was clearly arbitrary (he even admitted to that later, #40) and she sheeps him anyways. Someone kindly correct me if I'm off-base here, but I don't see the town motivation in that. Furthermore, a cursory inspection of her meta along with analysis of her play here has proved one thing: Do not, under any circumstances, underestimate this chick. She is not the type to do something without a reason, so there's a reason behind her early orc sheep. I can't think of any town reasons why she'd do this, perhaps someone can enlighten me later.

Another point against FF was pointed out by orcinus in #81. She seems to be catching on to minor inconsistencies (e.g. orcinus contradicting his intentions w.r.t. Nero, pitoli getting flak but not buldermar, etc.). Now, IMO latching onto contradictions is not itself a scumtell, but latching onto minor contradictions that have reasonably apparent explanations is. For example, she complains that people are getting onto pitoli but not buldermar (#86), which has the immediately obvious explanation of "buldermar hasn't done anything questionable and pitoli has" (#88). Why is FF latching onto these minor things? Again, a situation arises where I can't think of a town motivation for FF's actions.

Moving onward. Not a whole lot of relevance from FF until we get to the 150's range (gods, orcinus and buldermar are windy bastards), where we have this post:

I expect to get lynched early as town more than is my "normal" at MS, in part because my play style evolved elsewhere and it's going to change as I get used to this site. changes are almost always suspicious in mafia. I think my insistence on earning my reputation here instead of importing it from elsewhere is also going to cause trouble, but I'm ok with that.

The above bothers the hell out of me. Out of all the games I've played, never once have I seen self-meta come from a townie. I read the above as an excuse to why FF's play is different now than it was in prior games (she essentially tells us meta-ing her is meaningless, through self-meta). Townies fight lynches to the death, they don't just go "Oh well, my playstyle is changing, so I'll probably be lynched early a lot now, whatever". Even if a mislynch occurs, the more interactions that person had before death gives the remaining town clues as to whom to lynch next. This passive "I'm gonna die, whatever" is very anti-town.

A great deal of her following "content" involves discussing other completed games. I treated this as filler. However, one point that stuck out for me is that FF justified her townread on orc by way of her impressions gathered from his play in a prior game (#183). I think that's a load of crock. I don't care if you've played 1 game with a person or a thousand; you don't get a townread that fast. If you assume alignment based off what you've seen from someone in a prior game, you're being very sloppy with your reads. Meta is a nice bonus, certainly. Early townreads based purely off meta are unacceptable.

Most of the rest of her stuff involves Nero and buldermar. The Nero vote and unvote (#230 and #235) seems manufactured. Nero's been trolling the entire game (and indeed, the entire time he's been on MS) and now she takes him seriously? Then decides to unvote 5 posts later due to a possible buldermar conspiracy theory? What?

In short, she's inconsistent and anti-town. Looking for possible partners.
VOTE: fferyllt

I'm not going to bother with a point by point explanation or rebuttal. Cutting to the chase, as town I am simply not going to play as carefully as I would as scum. As scum in the forums where I play regularly I struggle to find ways to imitate my town game, which involves sharp turns and about faces as I look at new info, look at info from a different direction, have a dawning realization, etc. My game is data driven, but I think the way I process the data leads to an appearance of a highly intuitive game. There are things I am willing to change about my game to fit in at MS. But not everything.

So, with that, it is possible to build a scum case on almost any town player based on the content of their posts. As town, our primary job is to catch scum, not to look super-towny. The way town players catch scum is usually after the fact, due to interactions, due to insights about how the night transpired, or due to the way their in-thread movement stand out compared to the movements of town players.

I haven't played many games with fewer than 15-16 players. I think in this size game there may be less town movement for scum to stand out against, because I'm getting very little so far from that channel of potential info.

I think I'll end this ramble here before I start in on my Hegelian theories of mafia gameplay.

[fferyllt]

Townish

orcinus
pitoli

Unsure:

SafetyDance
Syryana

Unsure leaning scum
Lurker
Deltabacon

Scummy:

buldermar
Nero

Nero could go in the Unsure leaning scum group, but a couple of his posts did ping hard enough to draw my vote earlier so I'm leaving him in that pile. Deltabacon bothers me almost enough to put him in the scummy pile.

The thought crossed my mind that Lurker and Nero could be the same person using two accounts.

[fferyllt]

Kara Thrace, the superstar Viper pilot who died, came back, led the fleet to Earth and killed countless Cylons is a vanilla townie? Pshaw. Vote stands.

Coming back to this,

Then you think Kara would be a scum safe claim rather than a town role. And you think that I would have grabbed what would have to be about the best safe claim imaginable and then not come up with an awesome night action or passive power based on her wide array of special abilities and angelic origins.

If I were scum about to be day 1 lynched and going with a vanilla safe claim (which would be dumb based on site meta but that's kinda beside the point) I wouldn't have wasted this name.

[fferyllt]

The bolded in this post 157:

I agree on enough of your points to lean scum, but I just can't stand the thought of mislynching her specifically. You're probably right that I'm being a bit biased and I'll try not to, but I think we should seriously consider lynching someone else for at least day 1.

Here is my concerns:

Np

It's 1am and I just read through ff's only other scum game. This isn't my summarize case but I'm more convinced than ever that FF is scum.

-Ff seems to be more passive and just seems to be less engaged. This is reflected in how FF dealt with Nero.
-Why did she form such a strong read on me from literally 4 one line RVS posts--but not anyone else? Why hasn't she an opinion on Buldemar, who I assume she has offsite experience with? Where is her vote, her other reads? If she's such a strong town player and her 4 vote take it to the grave read on me isn't out of the ordinary, it's strange that she doesn't have a vote down.
-She's been less confrontational, and have expressed very few (if any?) original ideas
-I dislike the syryana vote on page 2. I don't see the pro-town intentions behind it, I don't like how she didn't follow it up
-The KBW thing still confuses me. Why are you referring to it, since you bought it up in reference to a quicklynch? Day 1 of our game was the furthest thing from a quicklynch, ever.
-She's calling out lurker for "needing more content". Don't you need more content from a lot of people (pitoli, etc)? Why singling out lurker, and this insinuates that you don't need more content on anyone else (or at least have enough to work with). I've yet to see an influx of reads from you

And everything previously mentioned

My reading of FF's game really only gave me one thing (well, three, and I'm going to save the other two for later). She's more mellow as scum. And I think I'm seeing that in her posts in this game.

This is just to jot down stuff, ill make a case with specific quotes tomorrow, but this is basically an outline.

I agree that she is more passive than usual in this game.

I don't think the forming of a town read on you based on the few posts is scummy, but I agree that it's a bit odd she has not yet stated her opinion on me, given that she has offsite experience with me. I have one thing to mention regarding this tho... I've talked to her a lot about my scum game and how I feel like I'm particularly good as scum. It could be that she is afraid of forming a town read on me and being wrong because of this. If that's the case it would be a town tell, obviously.

I don't think it's particularly strange that she doesn't have a vote down. In fact, I don't have a vote down myself, and I don't really throw around with my votes all that often. However, I also dislike the vote on page 2. That seemed very much unlike her to me and of all the things you mention, that's probably the one that means the most to me.

Calling out Lurker was odd to me. Not because she didn't call out the other people, but because calling out anyone at this point - with so long until deadline - seems forced.

[fferyllt]

If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll self-vote after I have one last chance to interact with buldermar. If I'm wrong about him, I'll retract my scum read before I flip.

I don't often lecture you, but in this situation I'd say that self-voting is considerably anti-town as you effectively deprive town some information that could have been obtained from vote analysis.

I'm off to bed soon, but I'll respond to every question you may have as detailed as possible when I wake up.

I'll wait.

[fferyllt]

buldermar's pushing to keep me alive today despite having a scum read on me, and saying he'd rather go with some other (unspecified at the time) lynch looked pretty horrible in reread. I'm talking specifically about post 157. This was all on spec, apparently assuming I'd be as successful spotting scum day 1 among players I'm mostly unfamiliar with if I'm town.

This is a misrepresentation and I really can't see a way for you to legitimately think that it isn't. 157 was specifically a response to post 154 in which orc asked me:

Buldemar, fear of mislynching completely aside, do you think fery is lean town or lean scum? I think you're letting that cloud your judgement too much. Yes, we should do risk/reward analysis, but I don't think you're giving the fery case a fair chance in your head.

I never assumed that you'd be

as

succesful; I said I'd consider you the strongest town player by far. In fact, I call you out on this bullshit right now: point to the post in which I explicitly or implicitly state that you would be as good in this crowd as in your home setting, please.

I think it

was

implicit in making such a big deal about the game where I did spot 4 scum on day 1 and using that as part of your argument for not lynching me.

[fferyllt]

Nero could go in the Unsure leaning scum group, but a couple of his posts did ping hard enough to draw my vote earlier so I'm leaving him in that pile. Deltabacon bothers me almost enough to put him in the scummy pile.

The thought crossed my mind that Lurker and Nero could be the same person using two accounts.

Maybe I've missed it, but why is pitoli in the town pile? I agree that he's town, I just don't recall you having stated why you think so.

Pitoli's later posts impressed me as coming from a town point of view. The players in my unsure pile have not given me nearly that strong a town impression.

[fferyllt]

Then you think Kara would be a scum safe claim rather than a town role. And you think that I would have grabbed what would have to be about the best safe claim imaginable and then not come up with an awesome night action or passive power based on her wide array of special abilities and angelic origins.

This is just preposterous. You can't make the decision X and in the same breath claim that you're town because you didn't make the decision Y.

Heh. I resent the implication that I would be terribad scum. My scum game is weak, but I usually come up with a pretty damn good safeclaim when I make one at all. Using an awesome character as a safe claim for a vanilla town role offends my mafia sensibilities. I wouldn't do that.

As we're going to find out pretty soon, looks like.

If I were scum about to be day 1 lynched and going with a vanilla safe claim (which would be dumb based on site meta but that's kinda beside the point) I wouldn't have wasted this name.

Same applies to this.

Same response.

[fferyllt]

I liked pretty much everything about this first post, but specifically her observations of orc and you, and her reply to orc about taking the wagon as constructive criticism. Re her comment about you, I had expressed suspicions of your white-knighting pretty early on, but the speed with which replies were flying at the time led me to gloss over some of your posts until later. Her post was one of the reasons I did another reread.

Gut read on ffery – town. Thinking she might seem “less engaged” or proactive because she’s tired of talking to Orc, and being put on the defensive here.

Leaning town on Orc, I’ve never really seen such aggressive honing right out of the gate but he at least seems precise about where he’s pulling evidence. I don’t see it as flopping on scumreads; it’s him wanting to get as many reactions as possible early in the game - seems legit.

Personally I’m liking Buldermar for scum, only because he keeps going on about how valuable Ffery’s going to be. It feels like he’s defending her experience/ability rather than her posts right now.

In response to Orc – I’m newbtown. This is my fourth forum game ever. So thanks – I’ll take that wagon as constructive criticism not to post fluff ever. I still don’t think that warrants so many votes though – a stupid post is not the same as a scummy post. I want to say there’s scum on my wagon, but not sure; either way the votes are weak.

Liked this post. Didn't like that Deltabacon never responded to it.

@Deltabacon
Can you offer any new evidence on ffery since your vote is still on her? Or any other reads you have.
IMO, it looks like you might have sheeped Orc.

And this - it's a good observation. As a recent (presumed) reaction test subject, myself, I think she's handling herself well and she looks town. Very collected for someone with 5 games under her belt.

Personally I’m liking Buldermar for scum, only because he keeps going on about how valuable Ffery’s going to be. It feels like he’s defending her experience/ability rather than her posts right now.

Pitoli's wagon is shit.

Not sure you've said that enough times...

Do you think I would have gotten this many votes if you hadn't voted me as a reaction test?


@SafetyDance: Welcome!

All in all, to the extent that a town read by a dead town player matters, she's got mine. Just wish I'd had more to evaluate - not just from her but from basically every player besides you and orcinus.

[fferyllt]

My scum game is weak, but I usually come up with a pretty damn good safeclaim when I make one at all. Using an awesome character as a safe claim for a vanilla town role offends my mafia sensibilities. I wouldn't do that.

If you pick a while ball as scum 100 times in a row and suddently pick a black ball and claim that this is indicative of you being town would you agree that it's pretty fucking backwards?

This is a team game.

You're suggesting that if I were scum I'd intentionally fuck over my team by wasting an awesome name claim that would have been great for a fake power role claim later in the game.

Kara Thrace is my character's name. Vanilla is my role.

[fferyllt]

Ofc you'd use a great fake power role claim if it would keep you alive - which is exactly what you're attempting to make it do right now.

Will read 309 tomorrow.

Not if I planned to claim to be vanilla.

Jesus.

You're not this dense. You're scum.

To the extent I enjoy this at all, I am enjoying that you've made tomorrow uncomfortable for yourself by bigging up my scumhunting earlier. Good luck taking it back.

[fferyllt]

If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll self-vote after I have one last chance to interact with buldermar. If I'm wrong about him, I'll retract my scum read before I flip.

I don't often lecture you, but in this situation I'd say that self-voting is considerably anti-town as you effectively deprive town some information that could have been obtained from vote analysis.

I'm off to bed soon, but I'll respond to every question you may have as detailed as possible when I wake up.

It's carefully worded, but there's an assumption in here that I'd be moved by the argument that self-voting would deprive town of information.

I think that's assumption that I'm town.

[fferyllt]

Hey orcinus, you feel like comparing notes on players?

[fferyllt]

I left my semi-ranked list earlier, just in case. How does it jibe with your thoughts?

[fferyllt]

Lurker's posts when he came back to the game seemed opaque and almost trolling to me.

Re buldermar, do you see what I was getting at in his post about not final-voting myself? I also thought he was being intentionally dense about what I was saying about not wasting a good safe claim on a vanilla town fake role claim if I were scum.

His early heavy-duty wking raised my neck hairs, but left me unsure and waffling about whether to trust he was town or not. I felt like he was setting an impossibly high bar for me to meet - the best day I can remember ever playing. Our interactions today haven't made me think he's town. Quite the contrary.

But.

I'm weighing my 100% certainty of my alignment against the possibility that not being mislynched today just puts it off a day, and we potentially mislynch another town player today instead. If I have doubts that an alternative lynch is scum, I'm the better lynch. I don't like giving up and won't stop scumhunting, but I dislike being a liability to my team even more.

[fferyllt]

I'm very apprehensive of how quickly we got to L-1 on ffery. The last few pages have been weird honestly and hard for me to read a la ffery's and buldermar's new cases. I like that buldermar at least unvoted whilst not backing down from his position, that makes him seem more town to me than anything else he's done.

Lurker and Nero just seem opportunistic to me, I'd be willing to lynch either of them until they become more open with their reads/reactions to the last couple of pages.

@Sryrana - what made you change your vote so quickly?

@Ffery - I feel like town should fight harder against their own mislynch since you're at least confirmed to yourself, no matter how great your doubts are on another town-looking mislynch. Do you think your lynch would provide the town with the most information?

Never watched BSG so I really don't get the references/significance of claiming Kara, I think that particular point is moot.

I think in general you are right about fighting mislynch. If I am all but certain to be mislynched sooner or later, then sooner may be better, especially if there's something worthwhile to be learned from the bandwagon.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: buldermar

going to sleep. Not leaving my vote in place overnight.

[fferyllt]

I'm very apprehensive of how quickly we got to L-1 on ffery. The last few pages have been weird honestly and hard for me to read a la ffery's and buldermar's new cases. I like that buldermar at least unvoted whilst not backing down from his position, that makes him seem more town to me than anything else he's done.

Lurker and Nero just seem opportunistic to me, I'd be willing to lynch either of them until they become more open with their reads/reactions to the last couple of pages.

@Sryrana - what made you change your vote so quickly?

@Ffery - I feel like town should fight harder against their own mislynch since you're at least confirmed to yourself, no matter how great your doubts are on another town-looking mislynch. Do you think your lynch would provide the town with the most information?

Never watched BSG so I really don't get the references/significance of claiming Kara, I think that particular point is moot.

I think in general you are right about fighting mislynch. If I am all but certain to be mislynched sooner or later, then sooner may be better, especially if there's something worthwhile to be learned from the bandwagon.

LOL you pretty much confirmed yourself as scum in this post. If you were town and actually considered me scum you'd think that succesfully getting me lynched would close to confirm you as being town. However, if you're scum who pretends to be thinking that I'm scum but actually knows that I'm not you'd make

exactly

this kind of slip, knowing that

even if

you get me lynched, you'll be up next once I flip.

Please attempt to explain yourself out of this one.

VOTE: ff

Are we done? I am really surprised that you can see scum in everything I've written in the last 24 or so hours. And I want to say that it is because you are scum, not because you're working from an earlier conclusion.

But, I'm not sure. So I hope the rest of town reaches a certainty that I don't have.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: Nero

[fferyllt]

VOTE: Nero

[fferyllt]

Aren't you the one who was fussing at me about contemplating a self vote?

[fferyllt]

Because if I'm not going to self-vote then who other than Nero would you have me vote?

Because, see. Those posts are me conceding that you might be town, and therefore I'm going to stop trying to get you lynched. Nero is at the top of my scum pile now, but there is no serious appetite for his lynch.

It is interesting that two players followed me onto you. You'll have to figure out what it says about them when you know that I'm town.

[fferyllt]

given the near universal certainty that I am scum, pitoli's town read on me is curious. Moving her to unsure.

[fferyllt]

Alright, enlighten me then: what changed your read of me so drastically if not hopes of not getting lynched?

Other than that, I agree that Nero should be looked at should you flip town. Actually IIRC I have a question to ask you specifically about Nero, I'll see if I can find it.

If my motivation were to not get lynched I would still be sledging you, because I think I could probably swing another vote or two your direction. My earlier interpretation of your posts may be wrong, but it's plausible and I felt sure a few hours ago that it was right. As town, losing that conviction takes away all interest in trying to swing another vote or two.

[fferyllt]

Actually, I don't like the sound of post 214 at all. Why would you suddently quit the trolling mode only to promise to clarify on day 2?

VOTE: Nero

That wasn't trolling mode?

Rereading.

This question?

Nero's post 214 was a blatant insinuation. If what he's insinuating is true, he's intentionally painted a target on his back. So, I strongly doubt it's true. Hence my thinking that it's more trolling.

[fferyllt]

That's pretty much what it means.

[fferyllt]

I dunno. What I thought yesterday could still be correct. But, I've lost assurance about it. Your reaction to my arguments has a townish outrage. And that is more persuasive than the words themselves which are not as unambiguous as you are making out.

It's not really that different from your "but you'd say the same thing as scum" arguments about my comments. Either you can tell it's coming from a town place or you can't.

And in your case, you apparently can't.

[fferyllt]

orc, could you explain how I'm wrong in 337?

Ahh.

I went back and read that and I can see why you think that's a scum admission.

I didn't show my work. If that gets my lynched then it's my own damn fault and I won't hoot at you in the postgame. When orcinus didn't express any agreement with me that your argument about my role claim was dumb and forced, and that you'd tacitly admitted you thought I was town in your self-vote lecture, I did a mental reset. That's when my read went from scummy to unsure. That motivated my 337 reply, and it motivated my unvote. I wasn't going to leave you at L-2 overnight.

[fferyllt]

I'm very apprehensive of how quickly we got to L-1 on ffery. The last few pages have been weird honestly and hard for me to read a la ffery's and buldermar's new cases. I like that buldermar at least unvoted whilst not backing down from his position, that makes him seem more town to me than anything else he's done.

Lurker and Nero just seem opportunistic to me, I'd be willing to lynch either of them until they become more open with their reads/reactions to the last couple of pages.

@Sryrana - what made you change your vote so quickly?

@Ffery - I feel like town should fight harder against their own mislynch since you're at least confirmed to yourself, no matter how great your doubts are on another town-looking mislynch. Do you think your lynch would provide the town with the most information?

Never watched BSG so I really don't get the references/significance of claiming Kara, I think that particular point is moot.

I think in general you are right about fighting mislynch. If I am all but certain to be mislynched sooner or later, then sooner may be better, especially if there's something worthwhile to be learned from the bandwagon.

LOL you pretty much confirmed yourself as scum in this post. If you were town and actually considered me scum you'd think that succesfully getting me lynched would close to confirm you as being town. However, if you're scum who pretends to be thinking that I'm scum but actually knows that I'm not you'd make

exactly

this kind of slip, knowing that

even if

you get me lynched, you'll be up next once I flip.

Please attempt to explain yourself out of this one.

VOTE: ff

Sure, but (from hypothetical town fery's viewpoint) you aren't getting lynched unless fery goes first because there isn't enough support for your lynch

Close. I was saying that if I'm wrong about bulder and he was lynched today and flipped town then my lynch tomorrow would be 2 mislynches and likely all that town could afford. So, if I'm getting mislynched better sooner than later and let the course corrections fall where they do the most good.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: Nero

Can the three of us truce for the remainder of the day

I'll try to keep the occasional fit of paranoia in check.

[fferyllt]

Post 337 actually makes me feel a lot better about buldermar after rereading last night's posts.

[fferyllt]

buldermar, I am plenty arrogant enough to believe I could either get you lynched today or assure that you're the next lynch after my flip. While convinced of your scumminess I was happy with either outcome but took it as a personal challenge to see if I could get you lynched today.

Without that conviction, it's not going to happen today. And without that conviction, I don't want your lynch to be a foregone conclusion tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

This is so frustrating, but it's also fun because it's become so unpredictable. First, a town read on orcinus and absolutely no way to find common ground for cooperation. Now, you, buldermar. Not nearly as strong a read, but still, brick wall. And mostly my fault that the wall exists in both cases.

Your meta on me is recent and comes from a point in my mafia career where playing with the same players game after game for literally years. I haven't had to spend this much skull sweat in figuring players out in a long time.

[fferyllt]

Post 337 actually makes me feel a lot better about buldermar after rereading last night's posts.

Why? I really feel like I'm lacking a believeable explanation for your sudden change in opinion of me that isn't scum-driven.

Call it an intuitive leap. I've done my best to explain what was an essentially a dawning, stomach-flipping realization that I could be wrong, mostly based on HOW YOU REACTED to my posts.

[fferyllt]

I agree that if I were scum you would have to look hard to find what you guys call associative tells. Though they would probably be there.

[fferyllt]

buldermar, I am plenty arrogant enough to believe I could either get you lynched today or assure that you're the next lynch after my flip. While convinced of your scumminess I was happy with either outcome but took it as a personal challenge to see if I could get you lynched today.

Without that conviction, it's not going to happen today. And without that conviction, I don't want your lynch to be a foregone conclusion tomorrow.

Tell me why this wouldn't be how you'd portrait things as well as a scum who just realized that she was about to get lynched and therefore had to direct attention elsewhere in order to safe herself? I'm not going to blindly trust that you could have gotten me lynched had you wanted to.

Because I still think I could get you lynched if I tried hard enough. I think that coming from where I was yesterday, it would be easier as scum to stay the course on you than to switch to one of the lurkers/content-free posters. To my mind when scum, going for an "easy" target when there's a credible "tough" target it almost always looks scummy. Giving up on getting you lynched is not what I would have done if my primary motivation was to avoid lynch myself.

You are going to continue to handwave this as "yabbut you would say the same thing as scum." And I'm not going to continue to indulge you. As scum I struggle to find what my town motivation would likely be in a given circumstance. As town, I don't even think about it unless someone starts with "yabbut you would say the same thing as scum".

[fferyllt]

So then what?

I'm resigned to being today's lynch. I won't continue to press for a lynch I'm not sure about to get another day in the game. I'd still like to do what I can before I'm out to help find scum.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: Lurker

I don't understand why we've been giving Nero more pressure than this guy

Because he's more under the radar? Is there something overtly scummy he's done that Nero hasn't?

[fferyllt]

Townish

orcinus

Unsure:

pitoli
buldermar
SafetyDance
Syryana

Unsure leaning scum

Lurker
Deltabacon

Scummy:

Nero

Probably sheer stubbornness at this point not moving buldermar to the Town list. I've been replying to him like his posts are coming from a town orientation since my first post of the day.

The difference between the two bottom lists is so negligible they could be combined without losing anything meaningful.

[fferyllt]

"day" = calendar day, not game day. just in case that's not obvious.

[fferyllt]

Wait

How about

VOTE: Syryana

I really don't want to lynch ff today buldermar but listen

If ff is scum, syryana is likely to be a buddy because of that awkward interaction

Syryana also did that thin where he voted you sheeping ff

If ff is scum, so is syryana (probs). But syr is also scummy independent of

This is good

You thought syryana's vote on me as RVS ended was scummy also.

I think I can get behind this. I think I like it better than a Lurker lynch.

[fferyllt]

My apologies for my silence, I've been somewhat busier than expected this week.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Pitoli

I agree with orcinus and Sotty that Pitoli's #36 was terrible, fluffy, and irrelevant. There's plenty to comment on and she ignored all of it.

Well no FF did it last game when she was obvtown and I think it's townie that she's willing to uphold that belief despite whatever flak she might get for it.

I disagree with this being a towntell. Upholding one's beliefs is all well and good but I'm not inclined to give her a townread for it. I don't see any particular reason why she wouldn't refuse to give meta as scum, particularly since she's historically refused as town (according to you).

If this was a bigger game I would love to policy lynch Nero.

Very much this. My brief review of his last newbie game revealed him to be a terrible troll.

I was looking for a game where the two of you played. Reading the recent newibie game I see what you mean about unsubstantial. I'd say obfuscatory though trolly works, too. he was town in that game.

No. He was a Mafia Goon, if we're reading the same game. Newbie 1342.

Main (abbreviated) thoughts atm: Pitoli is lurky and fluffy, Nero is troll-y. Will be looking into fferyllt more also, some of her actions just seem off to me.

Pedit:

also let me tell everyone right now that i don't intend to write a colossal amount explaining why i'm town and why the person i'm voting is mafia. just trust me, i'm usually right.

You were scum in that game and I'm thinking you're scum in this one too.

Syryana: why don't you?

A few reasons. First, like Sotty said, this is a 9P game. We don't have a lot of room for mislynches. Second, I like Pitoli better for a lynch at the moment. Third, I have a gut feeling fferyl might be scum also thanks to some inconsistencies (need to investigate) earlier, so I'm not going for a PL on Nero when we might catch some actual scum.

If Pitoli comes back and gives me reason to not vote her anymore and my investigations on fferyl come to naught, then I'll consider a PL on Nero.

My, this game exploded since yesterday. First off:
UNVOTE:

I like Pitoli's responses because they seem genuine.

Investigation on FF: (I hate abbreviating to FF but I can't remember how to spell the damn thing every time)
I first got an off feeling on FF on Page 2. She got an incredibly fast town read on orcinus (in #21) then followed that up by sheeping orcinus on me (#29). The reason orcinus threw my name out there was clearly arbitrary (he even admitted to that later, #40) and she sheeps him anyways. Someone kindly correct me if I'm off-base here, but I don't see the town motivation in that. Furthermore, a cursory inspection of her meta along with analysis of her play here has proved one thing: Do not, under any circumstances, underestimate this chick. She is not the type to do something without a reason, so there's a reason behind her early orc sheep. I can't think of any town reasons why she'd do this, perhaps someone can enlighten me later.

Another point against FF was pointed out by orcinus in #81. She seems to be catching on to minor inconsistencies (e.g. orcinus contradicting his intentions w.r.t. Nero, pitoli getting flak but not buldermar, etc.). Now, IMO latching onto contradictions is not itself a scumtell, but latching onto minor contradictions that have reasonably apparent explanations is. For example, she complains that people are getting onto pitoli but not buldermar (#86), which has the immediately obvious explanation of "buldermar hasn't done anything questionable and pitoli has" (#88). Why is FF latching onto these minor things? Again, a situation arises where I can't think of a town motivation for FF's actions.

Moving onward. Not a whole lot of relevance from FF until we get to the 150's range (gods, orcinus and buldermar are windy bastards), where we have this post:

I expect to get lynched early as town more than is my "normal" at MS, in part because my play style evolved elsewhere and it's going to change as I get used to this site. changes are almost always suspicious in mafia. I think my insistence on earning my reputation here instead of importing it from elsewhere is also going to cause trouble, but I'm ok with that.

The above bothers the hell out of me. Out of all the games I've played, never once have I seen self-meta come from a townie. I read the above as an excuse to why FF's play is different now than it was in prior games (she essentially tells us meta-ing her is meaningless, through self-meta). Townies fight lynches to the death, they don't just go "Oh well, my playstyle is changing, so I'll probably be lynched early a lot now, whatever". Even if a mislynch occurs, the more interactions that person had before death gives the remaining town clues as to whom to lynch next. This passive "I'm gonna die, whatever" is very anti-town.

A great deal of her following "content" involves discussing other completed games. I treated this as filler. However, one point that stuck out for me is that FF justified her townread on orc by way of her impressions gathered from his play in a prior game (#183). I think that's a load of crock. I don't care if you've played 1 game with a person or a thousand; you don't get a townread that fast. If you assume alignment based off what you've seen from someone in a prior game, you're being very sloppy with your reads. Meta is a nice bonus, certainly. Early townreads based purely off meta are unacceptable.

Most of the rest of her stuff involves Nero and buldermar. The Nero vote and unvote (#230 and #235) seems manufactured. Nero's been trolling the entire game (and indeed, the entire time he's been on MS) and now she takes him seriously? Then decides to unvote 5 posts later due to a possible buldermar conspiracy theory? What?

In short, she's inconsistent and anti-town. Looking for possible partners.
VOTE: fferyllt

He had a semi-reasonable case on me. (I could be a little biased about how reasonable). I didn't see any point in attempting a rebuttal because "I don't play that way when scum" is obviously not a rebuttal especially with a sample size of one scum game available to most players. I let bulder pull me in because his sample size is larger and he really ought to be able to extrapolate from the additional data points.

Kara Thrace, the superstar Viper pilot who died, came back, led the fleet to Earth and killed countless Cylons is a vanilla townie? Pshaw. Vote stands.

I expected this. Like I said, I was surprised this character is vanilla when I saw my role PM.

VOTE: buldermar

The vote itself came after my impassioned arguments about the stupidity of scum choosing a safeclaim like Kara Thrace and not claiming a power role to go with. (and my sub-argument that I'm not that stupid.)

That argument fell on otherwise deaf ears as far as I can tell, unless Lurker also bought it.

orcinus...for the sake of argument assume that both my bandwagon and buldermar's are town wagons. What was the advantage of choosing to vote buldermar over me?

[fferyllt]

Right but why would he vote buldermar and switch off you?

I thought the entire argument about role names was stupid and intentionally avoided it

I can't make that assumption. If I did, I would know exactly who the scum was so the entire exercise is a bit pointless

Ok, but I know one piece of that puzzle. So, I'm trying to see the profit in voting buldermar instead of me.

A Syryana lynch argument has to account for not putting a vote on the apparently mortally wounded townie wagon. I can see a possible argument for it, but it's pretty deep in my own self-referentiality.

[fferyllt]

Right but why would he vote buldermar and switch off you?

I thought the entire argument about role names was stupid and intentionally avoided it

I can't make that assumption. If I did, I would know exactly who the scum was so the entire exercise is a bit pointless

Ok, but I know one piece of that puzzle. So, I'm trying to see the profit in voting buldermar instead of me.

A Syryana lynch argument has to account for not putting a vote on the apparently mortally wounded townie wagon. I can see a possible argument for it, but it's pretty deep in my own self-referentiality.

Looks like I have to connect the dots. here it is

If I all but singlenhandedly build a case and argue convincingly enough to get bulder lynched today and he flips town, who gets lynched tomorrow?

If bulder joins a bandwagon that has a ton of support already and gets me lynched today and I flip town, who gets lynched tomorrow?

If bulder is town, then his mislynch today would almost guarantee my day 2 mislynch as well.

It doesn't work the same way with as much certainty if I'm lynched today and flip town, though I was hoping it would be a slamdunk when I felt sure buldermar was scum.

[fferyllt]

So if you get enough people to follow you, and you have my cardflip to digest, then who of the players who currently have their votes on me will you think are scum?

With nothing more than what's currently in the thread, I'd have to choose Sotty.

Syrana. Since he tried to cover it up with a pretty bullshit reason. Everyone else at least was pretty open that this was a RVS wagon

Siyrana it is.

VOTE: Syrana

Lol hey cool look at that.

I would've called for a PL right out of a gate is what I meant.

This fixation on small details doesn't seem like scumhunting. What exactly are you doing right now ff and what do you hope to get out of this conversation?

I would love to put FF at L-1 right now but I'm afraid of an unpredictable idiot named Nero.

Inconsistencies grab my attention.

I hope to figure some people out, though I usually better on more sleep. I woke up and got back into this thread around 4 am my time. It's 6 am now. Coffee would probably help.

I liked Syryana's last post.

Quickly (it's 2:30 am), the vote on syryana (we've been though this skipping that)

If ff liked syryana's last post, why did she refer to him as null in all future posts

can I answer that?

[fferyllt]

Right but why would he vote buldermar and switch off you?

I thought the entire argument about role names was stupid and intentionally avoided it

I can't make that assumption. If I did, I would know exactly who the scum was so the entire exercise is a bit pointless

Ok, but I know one piece of that puzzle. So, I'm trying to see the profit in voting buldermar instead of me.

A Syryana lynch argument has to account for not putting a vote on the apparently mortally wounded townie wagon. I can see a possible argument for it, but it's pretty deep in my own self-referentiality.

Looks like I have to connect the dots. here it is

If I all but singlenhandedly build a case and argue convincingly enough to get bulder lynched today and he flips town, who gets lynched tomorrow?

If bulder joins a bandwagon that has a ton of support already and gets me lynched today and I flip town, who gets lynched tomorrow?

If bulder is town, then his mislynch today would almost guarantee my day 2 mislynch as well.

It doesn't work the same way with as much certainty if I'm lynched today and flip town, though I was hoping it would be a slamdunk when I felt sure buldermar was scum.

Maybe he thought about all of that... or maybe he just logged on, noticed that nobody gave a damn about him lurking the crap out of this game, and dropped a vote randomly on one of the active wagons without even considering what he had previously been posting. Is that really so unlikely?

That's totally outside my mafia mindset. Maybe not unlikely for some players.

[fferyllt]

You thought syryana's vote on me as RVS ended was scummy also.

Wait no

I misread this the first time

It was a random name I threw out which I later assumed you sheeped for reaction/pressure. I thought your syr vote was scummy. I didn't have as much a problem with his vote on you

ha. And I took your opinion about Syryana over mine about Sotty because I have respect for your scumdar after the nightless game.

[fferyllt]

The two have been doing this weird avoiding game and its especially obvious on fery's side

A case on fery got tossed aside completely for a buldermar vote

Ugh and now I want to vote fery again

Damnit

Flavor-wise I should have been Kat. Maybe the best thing is to just do it. Lynch me. Remove some wifom. Try to do better tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

I think it's weird that fery doesn't have a read on syr considering how much he's posted versus say bacon

I've had a mixed read. That one post I said I liked is pretty much the only one that I liked and the reason I liked it was because he did the research on Nero and gave back something to the rest of the players about it.

I take that back. I also liked his case on me, though the conclusion is incorrect.

I don't like his vote on bulder. Although I was pleased with my arguments at the time I made them, they haven't stood the test of tire-kicking.

[fferyllt]

I think it's weird that fery doesn't have a read on syr considering how much he's posted versus say bacon

idk I think there could be a trillion different explanations for that.

Fery, gun to your head, which way does Syr lean?

Shoot me.

He leans slightly scum but I'm not ready to put a vote down. I don't trust my reasoning to be all that great when I'm the alternative and the ah ha moment didn't originate in my own head. I want to be sure it's not a misplaced sense of self-preservation talking.

[fferyllt]

Fery: but you had a read on pitoli which was also "mixed signals" early on?

Correct. She's said more that I agree with than Syryana has by far, and "saying what I'm thinking when I'm thinking it" is a town tell in my book.

[fferyllt]

Hey ff I feel like I've insulted sufficiently many players in this game for you to get that buldermar-wagon going if you wish.

I don't wish, but thanks I guess.

[fferyllt]

This looks like an awesome time to go have some pho and let the dust settle.

Any posts from me in the next hour are phone posts and evidence of my obsessiveness.

[fferyllt]

What is FIGJAM?

[fferyllt]

yeah that. (re SD)

pitoli's last post somehow...isn't as townish as I'd expect.

jesus I'll never get this posted.

[fferyllt]

I don't like SD's no idea list. His probable scum list is wrong IMO but he's consistent with most of the players given my placement in that group.

[fferyllt]

yeah that. (re SD)

Could you just clarify exactly what this means?

At the time I tried to post it, you'd said probable town and I was agreeing. Then a shitton of posts happened.

[fferyllt]

Buldermar, fery, help me out

Go ISO yourself and pick a few posts that you think are representative of important landmarks in the game. Just a few.

We're not doing this, right?

[fferyllt]

SD I can't tell if you want some sort of summary from me or not.

But here goes. It's more or less chronological.

Trust begets paranoia - fferyllt trusts orcinus, orcinus is paranoid about it

Trust begets paranoia - buldermar / fferyllt, not sure trust is the right word for buldermar's starting point, but the wking eventually made me paranoid

paranoia begets paranoia - fferyllt / buldermar, my paranoia about buldermar was reciprocated in spades

paranoia begets trust - buldermar / fferyllt buldermar's reactions to my going after him finally give me something resembling a town read

no fucking idea how orcinus got from paranoia about me to let's the three of us decide who the lynch is. But I still trust he's town.

[fferyllt]

Thank god somebody got it re Kara and the stupidity of a VT fake claim.

[fferyllt]

You have described it as I see it re buldermar and orc. But...you described it based on my post 534 so that wasn't too hard to nail.

I see your logic re pitoli. I thought her post sounded an off note. Was surprised that orcinus jumped as hard as he did over SD FoSing her for the post.

I'm p much damaged goods as far as bandwagon building goes, but I'd seriously consider her for a vote. Based on their posts about/to SD over his FoS, I don't think buldermar or orcinus would agree at this time.

[fferyllt]

kinda un-FoSing syryana here.

[fferyllt]

SD do you have any comment on Nero's intimations about you?

[fferyllt]

I came here to post something...I don't remember what after reading the last page again.

I'm probably around for another hour max and then off to sleep. Hope to pass someone in the night.

[fferyllt]

I hate people calling out pitoli for 517, she said it was a quick note before she went to bed and I think calling her out for it is opportunistic as fuck

Syryana is probably the same alignment as fery

Honestly speaking fery: how much is the interest of self preservation screwing with your reads right now?

VOTE: Lurker

I feel like we want to policy lynch today and maybe tomorrow will be more productive because I have no freaking clue who anyone is anymore.

I have buldermar town, fery as DON'T WANT TO THINK ABOUT, Syryana completely dependent on Fery's alignment, the rest all varying levels of lean scum

I think the fact that I was considering a syryana lynch on your say-so is an indicator that my read was a little coerced.

I've gotten some distance, though. I'm not going to do what you tell me to do vote-wise under penalty of lynch if I don't comply. I'm town. My reads are town-motivated and I've stopped worrying about my lynch. I can be persuaded you are right about stuff. I do respect your reads after that abortion of a nightless game. But, this gun to your head shit won't work on me again.

This could be the wine speaking, but I don't think so. It's not the first time in my mafia career that I've told someone that I'm not their bitch.

[fferyllt]

gun to

Oh...I don't know.

[fferyllt]

I think it's weird that fery doesn't have a read on syr considering how much he's posted versus say bacon

idk I think there could be a trillion different explanations for that.

Fery, gun to your head, which way does Syr lean?

quote fail. here.

[fferyllt]

Then what did you mean by that post?

[fferyllt]

awesome. so glad we got that sorted.

[fferyllt]

What was the gun to your head comment meant to convey? I read it as "answer this as I think you should, or else".

[fferyllt]

He's been in different piles at various points in the game. I doubt I've made a post about it every time he or anyone else has moved. I've spent way too much of this game so far defending myself and answering questions about my own posts to keep up a running commentary on every eye-twitch about other players, unfortunately.

Right now, I'm leaning town re him.

[fferyllt]

My vote's currently on Nero and I can't think of anything he's posted that convinces me even a tiny bit that he is playing for a town win. I have no idea at all about Lurker. pitoli's posts have really been here and there. Some good ones that seem to be coming from a town place, and some that have raised concern. But...5 games or whatever. How much clearly town behavior can realistically be expected from someone with 5 games under their belt?

Realistically, my posts are mixed bag too, but increase the quantity by an order of magnitude.

I need more data from the people who have been minimally present. If we had to decide in the next day, I'd probably either stick with Nero or switch to Lurker.

Wrote this up and realized that I'd completely forgotten Deltabacon. Leaning scum on him but it's mostly because he's not been around to explain/defend his vote or to get any sort of interaction with.

[fferyllt]

Why lurker? post count to content ratio? The hit and run vote on buldermar?

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: Nero

[fferyllt]

As a side note something that I thought of: if fery were scum it would be very strange of her to town read me

given that I'm generally an easy wagon

to drive and since fery evidently thinks my town game is decent (her opinion, not mine)

I was not aware of the bolded. Surprises me.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: Nero

I feel like there is little to no chance of ff being scum if Nero flips scum, and I think Nero is looking terrible in the first place.

I hate it when I see arguments like this. But at least you think Nero's scum.

[fferyllt]

orcinus' arguments are convincing.

[fferyllt]

I wish you two could find more common ground than you have so far.

[fferyllt]

That touches on what pisses me off about these lynch for info logic chains. They're often predicated on bad assumptions and IME they are as likely to mislynch town as to locate scum. Lynch the damn player you think is most scummy and then go from there once you have the cardflip info.

[fferyllt]

I wish you two could find more common ground than you have so far.

I wish he'd wake up and agree to lynch you.

If you're going to waste the next 10 days trying to figure out who could be my scum buddy instead of scum hunting, then I wish he'd agree to lynch me too. Confirmation bias ftl.

[fferyllt]

I wish you two could find more common ground than you have so far.

I wish he'd wake up and agree to lynch you.

If you're going to waste the next 10 days trying to figure out who could be my scum buddy instead of scum hunting, then I wish he'd agree to lynch me too. Confirmation bias ftl.

Scum hunting as in doing things accompanied by insisting that I only do these things as town or scum hunting as in stating that "I'm town"?

that hurt my brain to read. I really don't want to get into another protracted slapfest with you. It's kinda humorous that you're slagging me for repeatedly replying "I'm town" to all your posts that boil down to "You're scum".

*This is probably the longest D1 of a micro game ever

Any suggestions on how to make it a more productive and less long-winded game day?

[fferyllt]

that hurt my brain to read. I really don't want to get into another protracted slapfest with you. It's kinda humorous that you're slagging me for repeatedly replying "I'm town" to all your posts that boil down to "You're scum".

If you really don't want to get into another protracted slapfest with me, then why are you going into a protracted slapfest with me?

It's a good point. I keep thinking that you'll take it as a scummy admission if I stop replying to you but I don't think you could possibly become more convinced that I'm scum. Maybe we could talk about something else? Like what it would take for you and orcinus to reach consensus on who to lynch? Or what inputs we need from quiet players?

I think orcinus does have a point about Nero's occasional non-obstructive post. I have a question up-thread for SD about Nero. And deltabacon is supposed to be back on the 8th.

It sounds unlikely that we'll get anything from Lurker that is role indicative on day 1, but I should probably read some old threads anyway.

Maybe we can nibble away at some of the uncertainties and question marks.

[fferyllt]

It's a good point. I keep thinking that you'll take it as a scummy admission if I stop replying to you but I don't think you could possibly become more convinced that I'm scum. Maybe we could talk about something else? Like what it would take for you and orcinus to reach consensus on who to lynch? Or what inputs we need from quiet players?

You seem inordinately concerned about buldermar thinking you're scum. This also implies you're trying to tailor your actions to make buldermar think you're town.

I'm pretty frustrated with buldermar. He and I have talked mafia game theory. We've played one game together when I was scum. Probably my worst scum performance ever.

There is my scum game and then there is the space surrounding it wherein lies all the imaginings about what else my scum game could be. It's sort of the opposite of an iceberg, where the size of reality is hidden and underestimated. It would be pretty cool if my scum game were more of an iceberg.

I can see that buldermar's reasoning is hitting home with you. At this point, being D1 lynched doesn't sound that bad. Getting to consensus on a policy lynch is going to be difficult and I'm not convinced it's a good idea to policy lynch anyway.

Just before I went totally paranoid about buldermar, I said

buldermar, I'm kinda feeling like the scum players aren't playing yet. :/

I'm feeling that they're hardly playing now. There's no reason to when town's doing their work for them.

I don't like policy lynches, especially in a game this small. The game will hopefully become a lot clearer for town when my alignment is cleared up.

[fferyllt]

orcinus, what do you think about this Lurker ISO? http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[fferyllt]

^^ I think it contrasts pretty strongly with his play so far in this game.

[fferyllt]

damn it I said I wasn't going to get too wrapped up in non-experiental meta this time.

[fferyllt]

Well shit. I was on my way to convincing myself that this doesn't at all look like his town performance in that game. I didn't want to look at games that haven't completed. Guess I better.

[fferyllt]

Can you link to the game you are talking about, Syryana.

[fferyllt]

My main problem with Lurker is that I got him mislynched (I was scum, him town) in another game for doing exactly what he's doing here. He's great mislynch material because he lurks all game then under pressure shits out some awful logic. His lurking is about as alignment indicative as Nero's trolling.

According to the thread you linked, he was NKed on night 5. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4796912

[fferyllt]

No you are not.

Vote Count 1.17

fferyllt [3/5] - Deltabacon, Nero, buldermar
buldermar [2/5] - Lurker, SafetyDance
Lurker [1/5] - Syryana
SafetyDance [1/5] - orcinus_theoriginal

Pacifists (Not Voting): pitoli, fferyllt

-Angry P

[fferyllt]

You know what's weird about SD?

In all his bile I don't think he's taken a single shot at me.

VOTE: SafetyDance

[fferyllt]

I don't think anything's changed. But his insults haven't had a "you're scum" tinge to them for the most part.

Aside from his stated town read, it's almost like I'm not here. The posts of mine that he's quoted/responded to are null wrt alignment IMO.

[fferyllt]

No he included you in the "list" under "scummy"

I'm putting that in quotations because literally it is too terrible to be the work of even the worst town player.

That kinda fits with the 'not here' vibe in a way. I'm almost certainly going to be lynched, though maybe not today. He's distanced himself from that. Nobody else has done so quite that emphatically, except maybe pitoli.

[fferyllt]

that hurt my brain to read. I really don't want to get into another protracted slapfest with you. It's kinda humorous that you're slagging me for repeatedly replying "I'm town" to all your posts that boil down to "You're scum".

If you really don't want to get into another protracted slapfest with me, then why are you going into a protracted slapfest with me?

It's a good point. I keep thinking that you'll take it as a scummy admission if I stop replying to you but I don't think you could possibly become more convinced that I'm scum. Maybe we could talk about something else? Like what it would take for you and orcinus to reach consensus on who to lynch? Or what inputs we need from quiet players?

I think orcinus does have a point about Nero's occasional non-obstructive post. I have a question up-thread for SD about Nero. And deltabacon is supposed to be back on the 8th.

It sounds unlikely that we'll get anything from Lurker that is role indicative on day 1, but I should probably read some old threads anyway.

Maybe we can nibble away at some of the uncertainties and question marks.

I think the one thing that stands out to me aside from specific posts is the fact that you've been uncharacteristically inconsistent with your scum reads. I really doubt you can make me change my mind, but I'll at the very least try to read your posts carefully and think about them. I guess I'll try to be less hostile too - mostly I'm just frustrated because I feel like I've pointed out several things pointing towards you being scum that is being overlooked or ignored (although syr does seem to be digging into things now).

I've thought about orc and I reaching consensus and I think it is going to be difficult. Lynching deltabacon or Lurker would logically make sense if I had a town read on you because they would be that much more likely to be scum, but since I don't it really doesn't make sense to lynch either of them when we in my opinion should be lynching you. I'm still open for lynching Nero because I still think he made a scum slip in being inconsistent with his trolling behavior.

I didn't like the fact that pitoli omitted voting when he FoS'ed Syr in 517, but according to Syr it's not alignment indicative and right now I'm inclined to trust that Syr is town and isn't making up falsifiable meta-reads on pitoli (in addition, if Syr was scum it wouldn't make much sense for him to do this in the first place).

My lack of strong scum reads aside from a hellacious fit of paranoia about you has bothered me too. It's why I am not too excited with the policy lynch idea right now. I've had a feeling that scum aren't really even in the frame atm which imo points in the direction of deltabacon, SD and pitoli.

[fferyllt]

I thought that game had ended.

[fferyllt]

Ok. was confused, then. sorry.

[fferyllt]

You know what's weird about SD?

In all his bile I don't think he's taken a single shot at me.

VOTE: SafetyDance

I was wondering about this and about why scum-SD wouldn't jump on your wagon. What is your explanation(?), because I'm pretty sure it's not the same as mine.

I'm pretty sure I know what your explanation is.

I can think of a few reasons. If the players that were currently under lynch threat are all town then letting town take a policy lynch on some other townie today means that I'm tomorrow's likely mislynch. Also, once I flip I'm predicting a whole lot of finger pointing and recriminations. That's why a couple players distancing from what looks like a town consensus that I'm probably scum is starting to bother me.

[fferyllt]

Not being on mafiascum 18 hours a day helps too. This isn't EpicMafia, you don't have to always be refreshing.

Insulting? Where I grew up playing mafia that's a fistbump. Didn't even register compared to what you've been dishing out elsewhere.

[fferyllt]

By the time SD entered the thread hadn't my bandwagon already softened? The thread was choppy with other bandwagons.

Thread momentum here is not as big a factor as I'm used to, but it's still a factor.

[fferyllt]

@SD

You know what's weird about SD?

In all his bile I don't think he's taken a single shot at me.

VOTE: SafetyDance

bile = bad temper
"taken a single shot at me" = thrown an insult my way.

You responded to this with a quote of yours that wasn't insulting.

Though you did call me a liar in your reply

Why are you lying?

so points for that!

[fferyllt]

I don't think anything's changed. But his insults haven't had a "you're scum" tinge to them for the most part.

Aside from his stated town read, it's almost like I'm not here. The posts of mine that he's quoted/responded to are null wrt alignment IMO.

@SD you have mischaracterized this post. phoneposting... more later.

[fferyllt]

I don't think anything's changed. But his insults haven't had a "you're scum" tinge to them for the most part.

Aside from his stated town read, it's almost like I'm not here. The posts of mine that he's quoted/responded to are null wrt alignment IMO.

@SD you have mischaracterized this post. phoneposting... more later.

[fferyllt]

Buld: put him to l-1 or give me your reasons why you aren't

I've been drinking wine and I still have unread posts in this thread.

wine-laced stream of consciousness. Thread needs more drunkposting.

[fferyllt]

In your case? yes.

[fferyllt]

That's just the wine talking.

[fferyllt]

I googled that and you should be ashamed of yourself.

[fferyllt]

When I drunkpost everyone's all lynchy and serious. It's not fair.

[fferyllt]

It's 2:30 pm here. I'd kill myself.

[fferyllt]

@SD

You know what's weird about SD?

In all his bile I don't think he's taken a single shot at me.

VOTE: SafetyDance

bile = bad temper
"taken a single shot at me" = thrown an insult my way.

You responded to this with a quote of yours that wasn't insulting.

Though you did call me a liar in your reply

Why are you lying?

so points for that!

I don't understand this even more. So I'm scum for not insulting you? You feel left out or something? Not following your logic there.

I called you a liar because it's true and I showed proof. I was not ignoring you. Otherwise I wouldn't have responded to your posts. But its nice to know you're ignoring that.

Show me a post where I said you were ignoring me. I've said that you're distancing from my bandwagon and eventual cardflip. You've given me a town read (and then put me into your most scummy group of players, which makes me irritable about the dearth of appropriate smilies on this forum). You have thrown insults left right and center in the thread, but have not insulted me. Your interactions with me prior to my putting my vote on you were not nonexistent - but were quite sparse.

I'm assuming that there are 2 scum in a game this size, so there are three people who know for a fact that I'm not going to flip scum. Scum hanging back, keeping hands clean, while town lynch town is one typical scum behavior around town bandwagons. Especially around multiple town bandwagons when scum are not in any immediate danger.

[fferyllt]

That post makes me think you should lynch me so you can stop trying to tie other players' scum likelihood to the expectation that I will flip scum.

[fferyllt]

Yeah, I know you feel that way. I'm not sure I agree.

[fferyllt]

When I drunkpost everyone's all lynchy and serious. It's not fair.

Start drinking. Watching you and buldermar drunk post at each other would totally be worth it.

I've done my part.

[fferyllt]

I'm feeling excellent.

[fferyllt]

Will this do it?

[fferyllt]

maybe one more.

[fferyllt]

Morning fery.

Of all the nicks/abbrevs of my account name I like this one best.

[fferyllt]

struth

[fferyllt]

meh.

no content.

What do you think of your company on my bandwagon, buldermar?

[fferyllt]

fferyllt [3/5] -

Deltabacon, Nero

, buldermar

[fferyllt]

Morning fery.

Of all the nicks/abbrevs of my account name I like this one best.

From now on I will refer to as

girl

.

That's mean.

[fferyllt]

fferyllt [3/5] -

Deltabacon, Nero

, buldermar

We both know that's not what I meant with more specific, girl.

The question is mostly a data point gathering device. I would be having certain thoughts about the composition of this bandwagon if I were part of it. It's also a touchpoint for self-gauging my current level of objectivity.

[fferyllt]

Lurker's occasional drivebys in the face of all the calls for participation are pissing me off.

[fferyllt]

gah. paranoia about bulder on the rise again. Just sat down and talked myself through the game's evolution, especially the evolution of our back-and-forth. The linchpin of his argument, the one post he says clearly came from a scum perspective was a post I made in the mindset of "what if he's town and he's lynched next after me because I've gone after him so hard? Or what if I'm lynched next if he flips town?" Either case, if I was wrong about him being scum, it looked like two mislynches would almost certainly happen. I unvoted when the momentum for his lynch seemed to be with me, and I knew it would seriously increase the chances of my own lynch happening today. In fact, I unvoted expecting to be today's lynch though I am constitutionally unable to just accept that and not fight it even when I think my cardflip sooner rather than later would help town.

His arguments all seem come down to "scum-fferyllt might do anything, no matter how apparently anti-scum" when I argue that I wouldn't do something inherently anti-scum if I were scum. And the game we played where I was scum, I think that could be a reasonable takeaway, unfortunately. Everything scum tried went against us that game.

I'm not going after him again today. But I do not have a town read on him.