Newbie 1356 (OVER)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Oi, to head off questions of this nature: I respond to nearly any variation of my name from the full thing to DDD, Danny to DDDP to "Hey, you" as long as I know that I'm the "Hey, you" you're referring to. As the IC, I'm here to answer questions and provide some order to the game while also playing the game. If you have some question not related directly to your role (those questions should be sent to Messiah) feel free to ask them. It is much better to ask a question than to blunder and hurt the town accidentally.

Other than that, you get out of this game what you put in. So if you want to have fun, come in with a positive attitude, don't take any debate, arguments, or accusations personally and just pretend it's Pat Benetar and give it your best shot. I think experience is the best teacher and so unless otherwise prompted I'll be playing the game the same as the rest of you.

~~

Cop here and I have a scum result on

Vote: Mist7676

Quick! Lynch the SE!

Works for me.
VOTE: Mist7676

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@mist I meant people who have no games recorded on the site, because I stalk people pre-game.

Also to actually get some questions and answers down, if forced to make a choice between lynching two equally scummy players, would it be better to lynch the more experienced one? In other words, is it worth risking the loss of an experienced townie to avoid the risk of leaving an experienced scum alive?

I would argue that experienced scum have a far easier job in convincing newbies to play badly than the experienced town have in convincing them to play well, so I would be slightly inclined to lynch the more experienced player. Of course, this doesn't take precedence over actual reads, and it certainly wouldn't be enough to justify a quick-lynch.

I would be particularly interested to see what our SE's and IC think about lynching experienced players, as they might end up at the receiving end of this.

Given two completely equally scummy players then that might be a reasonable tiebreak because those with experience are more to fall into old patterns while the chance exists that newer players are just making silly mistakes. That being said I have never come to a point in a game in all my games where my top two reads were equally scummy and there wasn't something more useful than generic "experience" as a tiebreaker.

DDD

: do you believe that since you are the most experienced, that your faction has a higher chance of winning? Also should we be taking your word over someone else's?

If I'm being honest I would say no. First because the entire premise of your argument is wrong since experience and skill go together but it's not a one-to-one relationship by any means. And secondly because I'm town and in all honesty I'm an average town player with a very average town record; if I was scum I'd already have a victory noted down in my records but since town we're still going to have to work for it. But regardless of the average you should absolutely take my word as gospel because at least you can be sure you'd be listening to a town player then.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD While I'm sure that you are entirely aware of your alignment, I find your assumption that everyone else will believe you troubling. Isn't it usually assumed that everyone claims to be town? (other than mutley of course) Are you sure that you're not a scum who's panicking at being in a game with such obviously skilled scumhunters?

I didn't say that everyone will believe me, I said everyone should. And everyone should claim to be town, yes. But personally I believe doing so (unprompted) has some benefits, it accustoms and suggests the idea to other players directly and why would scum bother claiming town since everyone will anyways, thus I think it's persuasive as a basic truth. And I'm extremely 100% confident that I am not panicked nor scum and thus am certainly not panicked scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Does that mean that I should claim town right now, as should all the other town players? And yeah, I know that we should all listen to you if you are in fact town, since you would be the most experienced town player here. However, what if you were scum and you were lying? We would all be following you to our defeat (your victory).

I think the unprompted thing matters, when asked seriously no one with any interest in the game is going to claim scum but I think players who are willing to argue from that position unprompted are more likely to be town than scum. "Sadly" since I've made that argument it really isn't useful for the rest of this game.

I asked the questions so that we could hopefully get out of RVS, get discussion going, and cause I'm wondering whether lynching the IC would be a good idea for us or not.

Lynching the IC is a fine idea if the IC is scum; however lynching the IC is a terrible idea in this game.

Guess I'm just paranoid that we're all gonna sheep the most experienced one here and if he's scum, we're screwed.

Has anyone acted like they're going to sheep me or are you just battling a problem that doesn't actually exist?

I find sheeping the IC silly. And will mostly likely push for someone's lynch if I see this:

I on the other hand find it tom-terrific and will award you infinite plus one awesome points for doing so.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Check Mutley's previous games. He tends to act as scum as possible, because if he only betrays scum tells, he's got nothing to hide if he is scum.

I have a better idea, why don't you link me to where he's said this in public.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

And you don't see a difference between blatently claiming scum which is obvious and obnoxious and clearly not a slip with threatening players with death via lynch or night-kill which could possibly be a slip?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

They're both essentially the same.

In what ways are "is not a slip" and "could be a slip" essentially the same?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm twisting nothing, I'm just digging for truth here and the only way you can support your position is what you're doing right now and suggesting essentially that we either can't or shouldn't ever read any subtext into anything another player says and by logical extension that any slips we ever find are intentional by the player and thus meaningless. As far as I can tell given those suggestions I have no idea how you plan to find scum outside of power roles because clearly every scummy action, slip, or mistake someone takes will have a meaning intended by them, assuming otherwise would deny them agency.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

The twisting done was when you wrote "In what ways are 'is not a slip' and 'could be a slip' essentially the same?"
This assumes that the quote that I made from Mutley was a town-made scumbluff and that the post you're referring to is a possible slip.
It re-textualizes the things, as, in their original incarnate forms, they are as I explained them in post 57.

Of course it re-textualized things... to force a straight answer from you. In case A, Mutley has already flipped town but claimed scum thus his statement there cannot be a scum slip. In case B, Mutley is an unknown but has made a statement that could indicate he is scum thus it is a possible scum slip. These are facts. Twisting implies I distorted the truth when the truth is I simply boiled the situation down to it's essence so you couldn't hide behind word games.

I'm saying that during RVS, role-claims are less substantial than you'd think and that most subtext shouldn't be read into.

And I'm saying it's not a role claim which would be treated differently because there is essentially no chance of someone going "hey I'm scum" at any point in the game without intending to say it like that. Over zealously making a joke and revealing inside information on the other hand could be a mistake that scum might make.

~~

1. If I'm so desperate for his lynch why haven't I voted him, why haven't I prodded anyone else to vote for him, and why am I bothering with you at all?
2. I twisted nothing, if you believe you are being treated as a fool then it's because you've acted in a manner conistent with such.
3. The fact that I've engaged you so long is me prodding to get a better feel if Mutley scum-slipped and then in your urge to cover for him you scum-slipped in that he told you/your slot his strategy to behave purposefully scummy and you blurted that out in his defense. I think everyone would agree that's a perfectly reasonable course of action given what's going on.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mutleyddmc

You want a meta of claiming scum and being obnoxious to have a better scum game? That's fine, hope you don't mind getting lynched every game as town and based on the odds of it you're going to draw town a fair amount more than scum... idiot.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

What the hell is a meta? You guys take things more seriously than the other game it's only 3 pages of inactivity! Lighten up! Definitely looking at mist though as possible scum. Seemed an easy vote for a scum covered up in crappy reasoning. Trying to get a easy day 1 town lynch.

Do you enjoy getting lynched on day one then?

I feel like anyone who is put at L-2 and especially L-1 should be given time to make their case and the other players should weigh in before hammers are dropped or the wagon is stopped. It's more fair that way, and it keeps quickhammers and mislynches from happening.

I feel like Mutley can begin to contribute any time now but somehow I'm not thinking he will.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

You also don't answer my question that you would have some huge leads if it wasn't for me?? Why don't you want to answer questions that isn't very helpful. At least I answer questions even if they are jokey scumslips.

Also slips imply I slipped up. Where as I have intentionally posted everything. What scum would seriously say you will get killed tonight etc

Unhelpful answers are no more useful than not answering questions; because avoidance of questions can be as useful information (in fact it's probably more useful than an always unhelpful answer). And it's convenient to say that you meant everything you said and some of it there's no question you did; on some of it though it's possible it's a mistake you made.

As of now, I am not convinced that Mutley is scum. Why?
He hasn't led a wagon on a single player, nor has he strongly advocated lynching anyone.
The only player that he's given a scum-read on is Mist, but his vote is still parked on Shaboos despite it seeming more like an RVS vote/reaction test.

Honestly, he's done the most pro-town work so far, because by scumbluffing like he has, the other players have responded in a myriad of ways. Even if he is scum, this has given good reads and taken the game in a solid direction that was necessary during RVS.

Regardless, I wouldn't rule him out as scum so quickly, but I'd prefer to lynch a scum-candidate whose flip would do something more constructive for the game.

I mean this is complete nonsense, if you want to say we shouldn't lynch Mutley right now that's a valid opinion to have. It's even possible that you could have a town-read on him though that seems stretched to me. But the idea that he's done any pro-town work is absurd, behaving in an anti-town fashion as town is not helpful, it gives scum an excuse to place an easy vote, it gives scum an easy thing to argue against and it generally leads to votes being placed on a town player.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Thanks to Mutley, we have 3 more pages of actual content.
If you don't think that his posts, in some way, have moved this game forward,
Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I could post "banana banana banana" for three straight pages but that wouldn't help the game state and in fact might irritate people into lynching me which would be a net negative.

~~

@Anyone/Everyone, if you had to lynch one of the SEs which one would you lynch and why?

~~

UNVOTE:
VOTE: shaboostein

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Apologies, I was away for the weekend in Cincinnati.

~~

I'm bored by people constantly asking me "why". Why did I ask which SE one would lynch of the pair, why did I vote for shaboostein? I have my reasons for most things I do but I reveal them (if at all) on my own schedule.

~~

RC is put at L-1 in 155 and I have absolutely no interest in that wagon. Here's the thing, if you're scum and fishing for an easy Muttley lynch you don't phrase it as a policy lynch and you don't threaten to replace out. The first decreases the odds of it happening significantly and the second is just silly when Muttley is not likely to be competent with his personality and likely to get lynched at some point on his own.

~~

I'm not reading PP's 156

~~

Look at the replacement try and play tough guy.

~~

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Varsoon

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm not reading PP's 156

Enforcing the moderator's rules?

Unless the mod has a rule that says “don’t be an idiot writing massive tomes when a few lines works just as well”, no.

~~

I’m more than a little bit baffled how Dexter and I go from the two least scummiest players on Muttley’s list to suddenly two of the three players he’s most willing to lynch. Frankly it’s a town-tell that he’s so massively inconsistent but immensely aggravating to anyone with any common sense.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

In a way it works like this. From me looking at post content etc you two stayed quite low on my list. Then I looked at voting patterns and I got 3 names that hit what I was looking for. 1 was my scum read. 2 were town reads. Hence I feel I've found scum in FH. Thats why when I listed you three you two were even given a space between him and you.

It strikes me that if you see three players do X and two of those players are your most confident town reads than perhaps X is not a scumtell.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

What if this is some crazy setup where we're all scum but we just don't know it?

Anyway, DDDP, how do you feel about FH?

He's not one of the two people I'd really like to lynch (you, Mist) and he's not one of my town reads (Muttley, PP, RC) but he's closer to the second group than the first.

Unless the mod has a rule that says “don’t be an idiot writing massive tomes when a few lines works just as well”, no.

I see. Thought you didn't like the: 'no hidden text' rule, with all those spoilers. Oh and wanna share your reads on the mafia choo-choo wagon?

Nah, no hidden text generally means something where you're trying to communicate in a way that only one other person will find (basically scum can't daytalk in thread through invisible text or crazy codes that allow them to communicate full sentances and thoughts that no one else can see). I have absolutely no idea what you mean by "mafia choo-choo" wagon, is that the Varsoon wagon or is it the wagon on you?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDP: Meant the Varsoon wagon.

Well I think I've pretty much answered that and if I was bothered by the people on the wagon surely I would be off it.

Varsoon: show, don't tell.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDP: Meant the Varsoon wagon.

Well I think I've pretty much answered that and if I was bothered by the people on the wagon surely I would be off it.

Varsoon: show, don't tell.

The only way to show is for you to lynch me and see.
This is a game of telling.

If I asked you to prove yourself as town would you just sit there and proclaim yourself town or...

I don't like how Mist plays the game. I always read Mist as scummy.

That said, I think that doing an ISO of Mist and paying very close attention to how she interacts with her scum suspects and how she speaks for herself when called out will be telling.
With -that- said, I'm still really biased against her, so I shouldn't do it.

If I offered to trade her blood for yours, would you?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I think that my posts already prove that so far. If I was to make a case for myself being town, it would be a constructed effort, and, therefore, liable to be speculated as scum covering his ass. My case for myself lies in you (and other players) clicking the drop down menu next to the words 'Display Posts by user:', clicking my name, and looking through all of my posts, my interactions with other players, etc, and making an informed decision off of how I have played throughout the whole of the game rather than what I say in one post.

That's nonsense and completely ass-backwards; if I'm voting for you because I currently think you're scum I really can't think you're more scum because you want to survive because A) I already think you're scum and B) survival is a town instinct as well. But I have absolutely no interest in helping a player I think is scum so if you want to keep your blood in your body YOU need to prove to ME (and other players) that you are town and worth keeping alive.

And if I offered to lynch Mist instead of you, would you help me?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

If multiple people express that they really want me to make a case for myself as town, I'll do it, but right now, it boils down to a matter of either manipulating my rhetoric to convince you, or hoping you'll trust me on this one.

Why on Earth would I trust you?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Because I'm town.

Varsoon: show, don't tell.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Do you regularly spit in the face of people who offer you a hand?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I do love the sound of relational tells without flips in the morning. That's right, not only have I been bussing my teammate but I was the one who took his wagon from two person curio to completely viable lynch instead of hunting down an alternate target. Then I decided to blatently coach him but of course he decided it would be better to ignore my coaching entirely in favor of sniping at me pointlessly. Yes, indeed that all sounds very likely... in an alternate university where losing is winning, cats and dogs live together, and Mutley is a good player.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Thanks to Mutley, we have 3 more pages of actual content.
If you don't think that his posts, in some way, have moved this game forward,
Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I could post "banana banana banana" for three straight pages but that wouldn't help the game state and in fact might irritate people into lynching me which would be a net negative.

~~

@Anyone/Everyone, if you had to lynch one of the SEs which one would you lynch and why?

~~

UNVOTE:
VOTE: shaboostein

DDD, this post irks me, and your recent ones. This looks like you wanted to prepare the town for this vote. Or at least have a case to fall back on. That you planned to have this vote before.

Well, yes, I was setting the stage for a vote but clearly not for this vote. Frankly I don't understand why you're claiming it's irksome, if you've got a bothersome instinct why not scratch it if it costs you nothing to do so?

Cool.

Can someone lynch me so you can shut these idiots up?

If you're so eager for death you can pull a Mutley and vote for yourself you know. Otherwise you're just posturing.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDDP, feel free to go look at my Micro 158. I'm in what I feel is essentially the same boat. I'm town and no one gives a damn about who I think is scum.

A) Don't talk about ongoing games even if you're dead.
B) If you want to be hammered as you claim you can do it yourself why ask others to do it unless it's an appeal to emotion designed to increase your survival.
C) Instead of whine about it, do something about it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I think everyone is a bit antsy to get a hammer. Flips are information.

I hate this sort of nonsense, sure flips are information; you know what's more important than information? Lynching scum.

Even though I said it was a reaction test.

Could you have come up with a more passive-aggressive reaction test? "Guys, I'm totally getting closer to doing something, maybe" Well good for you Skippy.

I acknowledge DDDP point that the argument is circumstantial and overcomplicated, but for goodness sake everyone else! If you agree, say why, if not, tell me why I'm wrong. There is no point asking for people's opinion and then completely ignoring what they say other than to justify your own towniness. I find it difficult to believe that anyone, regardless of alignment, could be in a position where they simply don't care whether Varsoon is scum or not, and who his scum partner could be.

You might have some right to complain if you'd raised a good argument and no one responded, but can you really complain when I can so easily and sarcasticly trash your argument?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

VOTE: DDDP

I just don't like you. You are a bad IC imo. You are so far up yourself. Don't help anyone really, hide 'information'. Some sort of God complex. It's day 1 we are likely to hit town anyway. So I'd rather just get rid of you even if you are town now

Man, this speaks to the core of why I don't like DDDP as a player.
As far as me thinking he's scum, I just made a longpost for that.

You do realize the extent of the reasoning you provided for me possibly being scum is that I was on two wagons, yeah? And that you completely failed to link being on multiple wagons to being scum beyond a nebulous "I feel like there was scum on these wagons" argument.

Anyways, that's less important that the fact that I'd rather lynch Mist right now; vote for her and you won't be at L-1 for long after that.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also, DDDP, I could levy a bigger case against you, but you're not the lynch that I want to pursue on D1. If you're town, I think you could be a valuable town player.

Also-also, I'm not going to hop on your Mist wagon (even though I had scumreads on Mist earlier in this game) solely because I'm at L-1. That'd be a shitty reason to vote, and, furthermore, you using the power of your vote on me to further fuel a Mist wagon reads as really lame in my books. I'd like to know why you proposed that option at all.

You won't have a chance to pursue any other lynches at all if you get lynched yourself. And right now my priority list looks like this Mist > Varsoon > FH; I'm not going to bother blowing up your lynch and getting FH lynched accidentally in the process unless I might get what I really want and that requires kickstarting the Mist wagon and since I do possess leverage on you, why not use it to that end?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Oh, I don't know, because that's manipulative and a generally shitty way of going about the game?

Why not produce a hard ISO on Mist, and, you know, try to convince -all of the players of our game-, rather than pressuring me into flipping my vote onto someone I'm on the fence about solely because you have some sort of 'leverage' over me?

It's certainly manipulative and frankly given that Mafia is a game of manipulation I take that as a compliment. Shitty? I extended a hand to you multiple times offering you a chance to improve your position without any real cost; you instead chose to complain about playstyles and repeat "I'm town" several times instead which led you to this position where you have fewer options and perhaps none of them as good as you'd like.

You don't need to tell me how to play Mafia; I understand that Mist isn't going to be lynched off of two votes but I want those first two votes placed and then I go to work on the undecideds.

As far as pursuing other lynches, I think I'll have plenty of chances to do that, even from the grave. Town doesn't lose until all of town dies, and I think that my interactions now can fuel a whole lot of pro-town content even after my flip.

Any player who thinks they're more useful dead than alive probably deserves to be sentanced to that fate.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So two votes on mist and you will reveal stuff is how I read that? Ok then I want to hear it as we haven't talked about much else other than varsoon or FH recently

Ill start VOTE: mist

I don't want your vote; I want Varsoon's vote because he can't move it back without suffering a penalty of being put back at L-1 himself which gives me two solid votes instead of one solid vote and whatever you're going to do after I make my push. Tell me Mutley, are you willing to leave your vote where it is right now for the rest of the day on penalty of your life being forfeit if you move it?

This is where we stand on different sides of the argument. I see Mafia as a game of rhetoric, and that manipulation is only a factor if you are scum.

Silly noob, you would throw away a valuable tool for the sake of honor. (Game of Thrones "spoiler" from Season 1 (3:15 or so for most relevant part)

DDDP, I'd like you to back the fuck off of my case, stop twisting my words, and put your vote on your Mist wagon if you believe that's a more likely scum candidate. Furthermore, I'd like you to actually engage in convincing all of town that Mist is a good lynch, rather than insisting that I switch my vote. You aren't even holding the hammer on me. The fact you still have a vote on me, despite having Mist as a higher scum suspect--that just reeks. Play the game in a more pro-town fashion, because as of now, you're not helping your case in my eyes.

I have no need to convince anyone I'm town right now; what I need right now is for you to do as you are bade so I have a good position to make my push from. And I already explained the calculus of my decision before, I will not move my vote and risk a lynch of one of my town reads. I'd much rather lynch you and see if your name comes up red then risk FH unless I think I can get the big prize. I'm not trying to be stealthy about what I'm trying to accomplish, I'm not trying to trick you into moving your vote so I can paint you as cowardly. I'm a good judge of how a town is composed which is why I'm pretty confident in the fact that if you make the move I've outlined for you, I make the move I've said I will, we both go to night relatively happy, you continue to be obstinate, I go to night a little less happy but still content and you go to night dead. Do the math and do it quickly, the more time you waste playing persecuted victim the less time I have to do what I'd prefer.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDDP, you assume that someone else is going to lynch me, or that my wagon is going to go through.

I'm thoroughly convinced that if I do something as spineless as putting a vote on Mist right now, I'll be lynched.

How are you going to be lynched with my vote taken off you and my backing shifting away from the wagon? Are you really that afraid of PP who hasn't said anything worthwhile in 10 days? Perhaps you're a timid little bunny because RC will suddenly push for your lynch when I'm off your wagon? Do you think Mist will somehow improve her position by jumping on to your lynch in what will then be a desperation survival play for her? Now if I don't move my vote suddenly if Mutley is annoyed with you, you're gone, or if dexter decides you're scum you're dead or is MIst thinks it gets too close to deadline, your goose is cooked.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Yes, and all of those situations are better for town than me putting my vote on Mist.

Your continued insistence that your death is preferable to lynching likely scum is possibly the dumbest thing I've heard from a not dumb player in a long time.

~~

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mist

I'll be back with a case before the end of the buisness day but Varsoon is a waste of a lynch, he needs to be slapped... repeatedly, not lynched.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Reasons to lynch Mist:

Her first post, “But don't expect much from me. I don't deserve this title. It's mandatory,” is setting the bar artificially low so not much is expected of her and she has an easy out if she doesn’t deliver.

Her next five posts are so are pretty worthless just wandering through RVS grade issues without any critical summation drawn from them. Then we get, “This back and forth between you two was interesting. I am throwing the Varsoon + DDD scumteam idea out the window. But, it wasn't there in the first place” which is having an opinion for the sake of having an opinion.

***You know in ISO #8 she says this, “Personally, as scum I make jokes about being scum, because it is ironic the town doesn't catch it. Merely for my own amusement.

But I see no town motivation in behaving this way

.” But in ISO 4 we got this, “Come on mutely. I thought we promised not to bus each other!”***

The next six posts after that are similarly lacking in conclusions after she backs away from her policy lynch of Mutley. She’s looking for a reason to sheep me in ISO 15 but I don’t give her one. ISO 17 contains the words “prod dodge” which tells you how much content she’s generating.

She votes for freezing-hell in ISO 19 because she has a town read on Varsoon and that’s it there are absolutely no reasons why she believes freezing-hell is scum. Then in ISO 20 she goes back and dredges up a post that was half the game ago and that she claims to have liked the vote in it a while back but now she calls it irksome because she wants to draw a bright line between us. But by ISO 25 she completely goes back on her town read on Varsoon because he’s stalling and wants an easy lynch.

TL:DR; she does something she says she only does as scum and that there’s no reason to do as town, she under contributes and draws no firm conclusions in her contributions and bails on her reads when an easy lynch is available instead of fighting for her position.

If you read anything in this paragraphs above make sure it's the one with asterisks around it. Lynch, lynch, lynch!

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So an important part in that post is the asterisks? You said yourself posts 2-6 are RVS, and I made that joke during post 4. Unlike mutley I wouldn't make when the town is in "serious" mode.

I mean you're lying one way or another; you were willing to lynch Mutley for those same RVS behaviors. So either you were making up reasons to support a Mutley lynch or your behaviors are just as guilty and thus deserve equal scrutiny. Furthermore, your point basically has to center around RVS, who seriously makes statements indicting themselves as scum outside the RVS.

I'll let you know if Mist is a lynch candidate after she spilled her reads, like she promised she does. For now it's RC -> Varsoon. If RC won't get any heat, then it's Varsoon all the way.

unvote

vote: RC

One and a half days left and you're on a lurker hunt? And your back-up choice is Varsoon? Maybe you are scum like everyone says because those are some bad options when I have handed you such a fine option.

To speak towards DDDP's case, I could read it in that light, but I read Mist as scum in pretty much every Mist game. It's something in the shortness/format/content of Mist's posts. Always strikes me as scummy, even when she's town. Regardless, it's not something to rule out.

I level a number of substansive criticisms and your response is to shrug about how you can't read Mist? If she's scum are you going to concede the game to her because you refuse to lynch her because she has a meta of bad play, seriously?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Yeah, okay. You're right about Mist, prittaay prittaaay pritaaay scummy (kudos if you get that reference) .
Just for fun, calling it now: Varsoon/Mist = scumteam
RC would just be an useless crap player.

unvote

vote: Varsoon

Great, would you mind voting the half of that scumteam that's actually scum then?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hmm.. You no longer think varsoon to be scum?
I don't particularly mind I guess. I'm fine with either, tbh. I'm planning on going after the remaining one tomorrow anyway.

If I thought Varsoon was still scum I would still be voting for him because his lynch would be easier to get; now snap to it I need two more people to show up and fall in line even if you get things straight.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Varsoon time to come earn town cred and "bus" your scumparnter.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDDP, I'm curious...why wait till now to post a case on Mist? You pretty much had the whole day to do it, why wait till just before the deadline? She was pretty clearly going to not get lynched D1 until you came in and pointed out the scummy stuff she did....why didn't you point it out earlier?

You notice how no one else brought that point up either? It's because my attention was elsewhere, legit thinking Varsoon was scum until his reactions started to read town to me. At that point I switched into harass Varsoon mode to confirm what I was seeing and hoping to kickstart a Mist wagon because her utter lack of effort was bothering the hell out of me. Only when I went back to ISO her to make the case that is commonly demanded did I notice the hilarious self-indictment, trust me if I had noticed it earlier I would've brought it up earlier.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Honestly, I could see RC as scum easier than I could see Mist.
We've only got 22 hours left, though, and the flip would help me better gauge DDDP, FH, and the other fence-sitters in this game.

Vote: Mist

Mist'll flip town, though.

Tunnel alert. He's positive she's town yet votes her. This guy is scum. Votes here please.

Tunnel alert. You haven't said anything about any player other than Varsoon for what's probably about two weeks. And Varsoon's obnoxiously wrong honesty is probably a towntell, scum don't generally say they think they're lynching town, they come up with a reason to pretend the prerson they're votinf is scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

BTW, a no lynch is an unacceptable result for the day, this is fact. And if anyone abets a no lynch I will hunt them down if I'm still alive tomorrow and make them suffer.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Because so far the case on me has been nothing but rubbish.

What are you talking about, Mist's case of "he came into the game and made lots of small posts instead of a few bigger ones" was so compelling I forgot it as soon as I read it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Mostly a pressure vote, and I'd like to see what you'd flip.

Oh, also, you know, I've thought you were scum since you entered the game.

Yeah, too bad it's not happening and there's less than four hours in the day. Get your vote back on Mist so I can gloat when she flips scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

We have three hours, and I'd rather lynch Paid Pyro than anyone else here.

Paid Pyro is not getting lynched today so while that tidbit is interesting it's also completely useless. And for some reason you sit there and act like three hours is forever, when it seems like we can't get RC and other players to show up every three days sometimes.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Well looks like if no one is coming on to put mist at L-1. DDDP we will have to pick either FH or varsoon as they are the only ones we can get a lynch on.

You hear that Varsoon, it's either vote Mist again or die. 90% she flips town or 100% you flip town according to you, I hope you can do that math.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

If none of you others show up in the next three hours I promise I will wet my sword in your blood tomorrow and anyone who does show up will be safe from my wrath.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Lets just hammer FH DDDP?

And give those cowards not showing up an easy out? Nope.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I mean when they don't show up.

Committing to anything of the sort right now means they can show up and then avoid action I want them to take.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Oh, look, an idiot came in and, you know, rather than waiting for a case by me or anything, hammers me.

Congrats, FH, you just lost the game for town.

You deserve what you got and the game is far from over.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

This hour of non-informative lectures and impotent rage brought to you by sour grapes.

Mmm, sour!

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

FH there was no way a no lynch would happen. Me and DDP would have ensured that FH you are coming across very OMGUS. you think someone is scum for pushing a wagon??

In that scenario the other option was FH, surely you're not going to fault him that he prefered a Varsoon lynch to his own?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also, Jesus, DDDP, you couldn't be more of an annoyance to play with.

I'm just making sure you're as annoyed with me as much as I'm annoyed with you. And scum aren't running this game, scum are lurking things away.

Hi Mist and some other person in RC, zoggoth, and decter. *Waves*

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

He should have kept on mist like he said, let us wait for others. Then you could have made your case if they didnt turn up. I could have made mine. We decided. As is dexter and zoggoth turned up so we could have had what you were waiting for

Don't get me wrong, I'm irritated by his cowardice and his choice but I understand it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Think if FH had waitied we could have easily got a lynch on mist.

I understand that and I'm not pleased that I did not get what I want Mutley, but sadly FH's priority was not pleasing me. But look at it from his perspective...

FH waits... someone shows up... Varsoon or Mist gets lynched.
FH waits... no one shows up... FH gets lynched when you and I move our votes.

FH acts first... Varsoon gets lynched.

~~

Unless he really wanted a Mist lynch over a Varsoon lynch by a massive degree it didn't make sense to risk his own life on that chance.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Oh, I've been selected for jury duty, so I will be posting at different hours than I usually do, so don't expect anything from me tomorrow until later in the day.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm guessing RC probably wont actually say much useful again today. With 2 towns down though, don't really want to put us in a lylo if he's just a prick.

Agree with this. It's just not worth it to go after him. After rereading the thread a few times, I feel like RCis just town that's really annoyed and is unhelpful.

Today I want to go after Mist. That thing that DDDP pointed out really has me troubled.

There's some very good in this post, there's also some really bad that muttley already brought up; absolutely not the play today though.

Well saying we learned nothing is the same as saying no info. If there was info, we learned something, didn't we?

Yes, we learned you lot are idiots and/or scum who can't read a super angsty town player for what he is oh and that you're still scum. I'm almost tempted to wait till Mist gets three votes on her and then speed hammer but I'll play it right...

VOTE: Mist7676

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Well, I didn't see Varsoon as scum, can I be excluded from the idiots group? Isn't it odd how the IC wasn't murdered last night? Common move by scum, but it could bring up SOOO much WIFOM.

Yeah, don't worry you're firmly on the scum side of things.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Well, I didn't see Varsoon as scum, can I be excluded from the idiots group? Isn't it odd how the IC wasn't murdered last night? Common move by scum, but it could bring up SOOO much WIFOM.

Also could your tone ring more insincere? Tell me Mist are you just going to rollover and die today?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDDP got any other thoughts on the other scum member?

Zoggoth; I've got some reason to suspect everyone else is town other than him. And if you look at the interaction between him and Mist there's basically nothing other than times when they talked about everyone. That bein said it's not a useful read so much without Mist being scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I like the part where everyone knows what's going to happen today but we have to artificially string things out to make things look proper.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

The most worrying thing, given the situation, is that the day after an apparently dodgy lynch, there is no flip or wagon analysis (other than a little by RC, of all people) and people go almost immediately to the same wagons from yesterday. SCUM-ZOGGOTH COULD HAVE LITERALLY HAMMERED MIST RIGHT NOW! (this is not a vote).

Scum Zoggoth might not want to hammer his scum partner; understandable. Scum Zoggoth also might realize that if Mist is town that it will help him more to try and regain some credibility by staying off the wagon and not hammering again and getting himself lynched tomorrow. Really if the argument that you're town amounts to "I'm totally not hammering right now" it's not exactly a strong point.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I think I've figured out a few things but they cant be said. Other than I am guessing the mafia may have killed pyro as there was probably no reason for the doctor to protect him.

It also lets them WIFOM the town as Mist keeps trying to do and was possible PR hunting as well.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'll be honest, I don't believe the claim either based on Mist's reactions near the end of the day yesterday. Far too blase to the idea of getting lynched as a cop.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Possibly DDDP, I find it odd he survived the night.

I mean you didn't investigate your top scum read and you didn't investigate me despite the fact that you believe...

I am now where near experienced, but I would defiantly lynch the more experienced player, because it would be harder to play with an excellent scum than with the simple scum we just caught.

Your claimed action doesn't make sense at all. When you were super close to getting lynched yesterday you showed absolutely nothing to indicate that your lynch would fail, when I get pressured as a PR I get cocky and start taunting people voting for me because they won't get my lynch; other's get nervous about the fact that they'll have to claim to save themselves, there's absolutely nothing like that in your play.

I continue to wish people would quit fucking stalling, so tedious.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Thrilling, this game will require a re-read to figure out where I took a wrong turn. In the meanwhile we're in LYLO which means you should not vote quickly and it also means it's probably appropriate to have a mass claim though it's unlikely to tell us anything.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

This is me not voting and thus not being scum with RC, FH, or zoggoth.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

No town would jump on that wagon, because A) No reasoning that I gave B) It would allow a quick hammer from scum that would win them the game.
Ergo, RC is 100% scum

Your logic assumes a degree of competency from RC that I haven't seen established yet. It doesn't mean you're wrong but I'm not willing to assert that as fact without further analysis.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

That's cause FH is town. No scum would do something as ridiculous as he did, and there was actually like no reason scum would take such a huge gambit when they're in lylo

I don't know about that, in fact it's certainly worth thinking about.

If Dexter was town then he would know that FH voting him and me voting him means we both have to be scum.

Or it could've been that one of you/FH was scum with zogg/me and zogg/me hadn't been on to seal the game with a hammer.

Why would you place a L-1 when you don't know what the others will say? Only one reason: you're scum. I'm not changing my thoughts on this.

Why would you vote at all when you don't know what others will say, hypocrite?

Also @DDDP, don't presume to judge my competence. I know full well what I was doing.

If I accept you as competent then it probably means you need to be lynched because the only competent player who does that is scum.

Because in LYLO you don't put out a serious vote to lynch before everyone has said what they wanted. I'll vote you then.

Still a hypocrite.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Then why aren't you voting me?

Because FH is a "gambiting" hypocrite and I don't trust anyone in LYLO, I'll do my own analysis of the gambit later today and see where I stand.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm smart, actually.

I told them that if they believed what they said they would already have voted me. Clearly they don't so I don't need to point out the flaws in their line of reasoning.

You are confirmed scum because you haven't been quickhammered several days after I first voted you. A matter of minutes is fine; this time length is not. Now vote me.

Let's check the accuracy of this statement mentally by working from the opposite position.

Triple D=town
Dexter=town

Which leaves three possible pairings...
RC/zogg, RC/FH, FH/zogg

I'm going to rule out RC/FH as a possible scum pairing given the way the start of the day went, no way they make that series of moves as scum.
If FH/zogg were scum together then FH never would've unvoted dexter after RC placed his vote because then zogg could've easily hammered for the win.
Which leaves RC/zogg, this is certainly credible with the play earlier in the day with RC possibly trying to set up a quick hammer for his partner.

Alright, so the only viable non-Dexter scum team is RC/zogg; let's take a look at the possible Dexter scum teams...

Dexter/RC why place a second vote on your scum partner and then hold it there in LYLO, even if it is viable don't look a gift horse in the mouth
Dexter/FH this is the one voting case that bothers me as an actual possible scum team, it happens early in the day (result of planning at night?) the town isn't likely to quickhammer and if you do get a quick vote then scum unvotes and hard pivots on the town player and if you don't get a quick vote then you either unvote claiming gambit or you wait for two votes to pile up on someone else and hammer them ftw. Worst case is that quick hammer happens on your buddy but even then you look great for being the first to vote them.
Dexter/Zogg this is viable.

So RC/zogg, Dexter/FH, or Dexter/zogg are my options, going to re-read ISOs with that in mind.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Don't forget RC/Dex. They might have decided to bus one or the other.

If RC/Dex is an option, then there's a 75% chance that the scumteam includes Dexter and you would still be better off voting me than him in that scenario.

I do also question DDDP for not considering that possibility, because his claim of bad play on my part would make my actions make sense; I tried to bus my partner but then didn't know what to do after, and he made the play of looking town to turn the bus on me so that I get lynched, he kills DDDP tomorrow, then pushes FH to get a lynch on Zoggoth tomorrow.

I only brought up the possibility that DDDP isn't town because I find it so strange that he ignored the possibility of a RC/Dexter scumteam because if I didn't know I was town, I would consider it far more likely than RC/Zoggoth. Like I said above. But, also like I said above, I'll let it sit for now. But if DDDP and I are still alive tomorrow, with either you or Zoggoth, I'm not quite sure what I will do.

Umm, it's listed right there in 686 along with the other possible options; and yes I dismiss it as unlikely because it doesn't make very much sense; additionally why would I bother analyzing it when we're almost certain to lynch one of the pair today and if it were true then yay scum lynch and deal with the partner situation tomorrow (the "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" thing).

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

VOTE: dexter9264

I just went and re-read the combined ISOs of my three pairings and the two involving dexter are just so much more compelling as scum than the RC one. I absolutely hate RC's second vote today and keep wondering if it was scum caught with his hand in the cookie jar but he's recovered well since and I think his aggresiveness is probably a town tell. Additionally, I was town-telling on RC on D1 and dexter has been a pretty much non-entity for large stretches of the game. Also slightly important to me is that I am

V/LA starting tomorrow for the entire next week

(I expect to have some access probably on my Nook but not much) and I need to make a decision before that and for good or ill this is it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I really don't understand why zoggoth was ignored on the final day; he'd done nothing but lurk for the entire game. And FH, I have absolutely no idea why you thought RC was scum, the play he made on D3 was far too aggressive once Dexter flipped scum. Ah well, hopefully everyone had a decent time despite the bickering that's happening after the game.