Newbie 1356 (OVER)

[Varsoon]

Hey everyone. It seems like we're still in RVS, so VOTE: Varsoon because thats how I roll

I'm having a hard time tracking these questions and philosophical responses. Is it supposed to answer a question, be a general discussion, or gauge someone's play style?

Anywho, the game seems like its full of interesting characters. Oh, and Radient Cowbells, I don't want to be that guy, but eventually someone's gonna say it anyways. You should get a profile picture (or whatever they call it on forums). It helps to pick out your responses when scrolling through the pages and it lets me get a sense of who you are.

Ah, come on, that's not even fair of you.
Also, it's a clever positioning move that clearly betrays a scum tell! Parking a vote three pages in? Harsh.
Moreover, you have a pony avatar doing the Gendo hands? What town would pick that as their user image? Someone who's not town, that's who. I've got my eye on you, fiend!

That said, I'm glad to join this game, I hope we can all have a lot of fun.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: shaboostein

I clearly stated we were out of RVS and any one not obeying my orders will be lynched or killed tonight!!!

VOTE: shaboostein

will be lynched or

killed tonight!!!

http://www.dramabutton.com

Check Mutley's previous games. He tends to act as scum as possible, because if he only betrays scum tells, he's got nothing to hide if he is scum.

Flame-tossing and RVS aside,
Why are there two votes on me? Take 'em off.

[Varsoon]

Sorry Varsoon, I had a brain fart and didn't realize that the votes on the previous owner of your slot would be transferred onto you.

VOTE: RadientCowbells

Because most of his activity is complaining about the low activity.

It's k, it happens sometimes. On my first game, we had replacements as many as 20 pages deep.

Hey, look, there is low activity. It's hard to be active when you're two pages in. Almost everything is parking meaningless votes, reaction testing, etc.

That said, does anyone have any serious town or scum reads?

[Varsoon]

SE #2 here.

Vote dexter9264

Named after a serial killer

Not to be totally RVS here, but--
How do you know it's not after any other Dexter, such as the titular character of Dexter's Lab?
Scumslipping hard, bro.

@mist I meant people who have no games recorded on the site, because I stalk people pre-game.

Also to actually get some questions and answers down, if forced to make a choice between lynching two equally scummy players, would it be better to lynch the more experienced one? In other words, is it worth risking the loss of an experienced townie to avoid the risk of leaving an experienced scum alive?

I would argue that experienced scum have a far easier job in convincing newbies to play badly than the experienced town have in convincing them to play well, so I would be slightly inclined to lynch the more experienced player. Of course, this doesn't take precedence over actual reads, and it certainly wouldn't be enough to justify a quick-lynch.

I would be particularly interested to see what our SE's and IC think about lynching experienced players, as they might end up at the receiving end of this.

I'd rather lynch the newb. Why? It prevents you underestimating them, and, furthermore, you can meta the experienced ones. Every scum has the same level of power in the game (that is, a night kill) outside of PRs, so if it's equally likely that both are scum, the question becomes not so much who holds tangible power but what the nature of intangible power is.

Freshman

: if someone acted scummy and then replaced out, should you continue believing that his replacement is scum?

Zoggoth

: Are you for or against lynching an experienced player Day 1?

DDD

: do you believe that since you are the most experienced, that your faction has a higher chance of winning? Also should we be taking your word over someone else's?

Mutleyddmc

: What do you want your legacy this game to be? When it's all over, what do you want to be remembered for?

Aphelion72

: Please give us a good reason not to lynch you D1

Mist7676

and

Paid Pyro

: Being the SE's I'm curious about what you have to say on a Day 1 lynch of the IC. He is the most experienced player, and could very well lead scum to victory if he is scum.

Radiant Cowbells

: Should a town player ever lie about his role? What if that player is a VT? What if that player is a power role?

Since I replaced Freshman, I'll answer this.
It depends on what the replacement does. Interesting that you ask this question to Freshman, who then replaced out. It's almost like you knew! That foresight will be nice to have. Anyway, in my first game, we all found one guy to be scummy, he replaced out, we found the replacement to be scummy, and when he replaced again, we voted him. He flipped scum. What's important is to do your reads and ISOs and take into consideration every post made by that slot.

[Varsoon]

Check Mutley's previous games. He tends to act as scum as possible, because if he only betrays scum tells, he's got nothing to hide if he is scum.

I have a better idea, why don't you link me to where he's said this in public.

A few errata:
previous game*

because if her only betrays scum tells,*


Also,

Hm i see a vote because somebody is missing an avatar still as a random vote.
"to vote for a reason" means for me suspicion of scum, other than that it is rv, especially Page 1. At least in my eyes it is.

For me it was more interesting that Mutley was so eager to get the vote off him.
Why so afraid of one random vote Mutley?

ahhhh man, you caught me, I'm mafia. Redhanded how did you guess.

He flipped town that game.

[Varsoon]

And you don't see a difference between blatently claiming scum which is obvious and obnoxious and clearly not a slip with threatening players with death via lynch or night-kill which could possibly be a slip?

They're both essentially the same.
I'm not saying he's confirmed town or scum at the moment, but to instead take in the previous (and only, on this site) game that he's played and see that he's already been mislynched once because of exactly that kind of reaction.
I'd rather lynch scum than town, if I can help it.

[Varsoon]

They're both essentially the same.

In what ways are "is not a slip" and "could be a slip" essentially the same?

You're twisting it here.
I'm saying that
"I am mafia."
and
"You'll be nightkilled."
are the same in the fact that they both can be expressions that one person is mafia-affiliated.
Both assume agency on the writer's behalf.
The second is less explicit, as a townie could also say "you'll be nightkilled."
My response was that explicitly town/mafia affiliated posts should not be read into as much at this point of the game from Mutley, since he has, as town, posted explicitly mafia-oriented posts and, as it seemed, even played against his wincon as town.
I'll go further now to say that any explicit role-claims should be dismissed in RVS because they amount to nothing more than disorientation on the behalf of all players and they can not be proven unless they are flipped via lynch.

Now, if you want to continue to read that as a definitive scum slip, feel free to. I'm simply saying that, from my position, as someone who watched/is still watching Mutley's previous game, I do not think it is as indicative of his role as you believe.

[Varsoon]

I'm twisting nothing, I'm just digging for truth here and the only way you can support your position is what you're doing right now and suggesting essentially that we either can't or shouldn't ever read any subtext into anything another player says and by logical extension that any slips we ever find are intentional by the player and thus meaningless. As far as I can tell given those suggestions I have no idea how you plan to find scum outside of power roles because clearly every scummy action, slip, or mistake someone takes will have a meaning intended by them, assuming otherwise would deny them agency.

The twisting done was when you wrote "In what ways are 'is not a slip' and 'could be a slip' essentially the same?"
This assumes that the quote that I made from Mutley was a town-made scumbluff and that the post you're referring to is a possible slip.
It re-textualizes the things, as, in their original incarnate forms, they are as I explained them in post 57.
That's twisting things.

I'm saying that

during RVS

, role-claims are less substantial than you'd think and that most subtext shouldn't be read into.

And, yes, the only way to truly know a player's role before a lynch or kill flips their role is to be an informed minority.

The whole purpose of the game is to piece together evidence and suppositions made throughout the posts in the thread and to lynch players who you believe to be mafia based off of their actions and how they position themselves. This will never be a sure-footed task.


VOTE: Debonair Danny DiPietro

1. I don't like that you're trying to put so much weight on what may or may not be a slip by Mutley. It seems desperate for an early, uninformed lynch.
2. You twisted my argument and supplanted your own interpretation--one that paints me as a fool.
3.The entire back and forth between us is outside of the immediate game, and the fact that you've engaged it so long makes it seem like fluff on your end, especially since it makes certain personal affronts that will likely garner a response (see point 2).

[Varsoon]

I guess I'll have to agree to disagree at this point, mostly because our back and forth is a whole third of the game right now.

I would like to express two things, though:
I am town.
I am not an ally of Mutley's. In fact, I can't stand his posting style or how he's played the game so far. I'd probably have a vote on him now, if only to lynch him as a player, but I must put personal desires aside for what's best for town. I hope he's scum this game, so that if we lynch him, it'll be all the better.

[Varsoon]

Vote: Mutley

Seriously douchebaggy style of play, not working towards town win condition, just trying to get himself a meta.
Or can he be replaced? I don't want to play with one potential town acting scummy all game so that he doesn't look scum when he is scum.

Very tempted to put a vote on him to lynch his playstyle, too, but Policy Lynching usually turns up town. :/

I'd rather get some real scumtells out of people.

[Varsoon]

Vote: Mutley

Seriously douchebaggy style of play, not working towards town win condition, just trying to get himself a meta.
Or can he be replaced? I don't want to play with one potential town acting scummy all game so that he doesn't look scum when he is scum.

This sounds really town to me, also. Not confirming you for town, but it's a really town thing to say.

[Varsoon]

Well, he already revealed he doesn't care about meta. This shows he is acting scum or is scum. Personally, as scum I make jokes about being scum, because it is ironic the town doesn't catch it. Merely for my own amusement. But I see no town motivation in behaving this way.

For that reason

Vote: mutley

if he isn't scum, and this is a mislynch, I'm happy it is a policy lynch.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mutleyddmc

You want a meta of claiming scum and being obnoxious to have a better scum game? That's fine, hope you don't mind getting lynched every game as town and based on the odds of it you're going to draw town a fair amount more than scum... idiot.

Unvote

I have no desire to play with this troll, and I'm not risking wasting a lynch.

Either he needs to be replaced or I do.

This behaviour is completely unacceptable and acting like scum every game to set up a meta of acting scum is not working towards your win condition in any individual game, ie this one.

Please check the other game I linked with Mutley from a few posts back.
Their mislynch of Mutley ruined two of their days and essentially put them in LyLo.

[Varsoon]

What the hell is a meta? You guys take things more seriously than the other game it's only 3 pages of inactivity! Lighten up! Definitely looking at mist though as possible scum. Seemed an easy vote for a scum covered up in crappy reasoning. Trying to get a easy day 1 town lynch.

A meta is when a player plays a certain way over a series of games so that they can argue that it is simply their playing style.
For instance, I tend to be very thorough and I voice when player's personalities rub me the wrong way.
If I ever get called out on that, I'll tell them to look at my previous games and realize that's just how I play.


I do think that one person with a vote on you is scum.

[Varsoon]

IF ANYONE ELSE VOTES MUTLEY WITHOUT A GOOD REASON, YOU WILL BE SCUM SUSPECT. THIS GOES DOUBLY IF ANYONE JUST HAMMERS HIM, ESP. IF HE FLIPS TOWN

I think we should seriously discuss the possibility of him being town or scum. Honestly, I'm null-leaning town right now, but my opinion is largely painted by how he reacted as well as his previous game.

[Varsoon]

I feel like anyone who is put at L-2 and especially L-1 should be given time to make their case and the other players should weigh in before hammers are dropped or the wagon is stopped. It's more fair that way, and it keeps quickhammers and mislynches from happening.

[Varsoon]

Well, Paid Pyro, since I know that I am town, I know that people levying baseless arguments against me are more likely to be scum than other players.
So, by saying something like I did just earlier, or making other intentional missteps, I'm inviting scum and town speculation.
It's helped me get better reads on people so far, and your reaction was pretty genuinely scummy.

[Varsoon]

I don't know your town. So why should I believe you, cuz you said so? How many times have you professed your townieness this game?

Wait I think we should take a straw poll of everyone here. Everyone should claim. I wonder what the response will be. So please explain why I'm scummy, because I do t trust you?

You should believe that I'm town by evaluating all my posts so far and understanding that all of my motivations have town's interest at heart. When the Mutley wagon was started, I didn't slam my vote on another player in response, nor did I push the mutley wagon even more (although I could, and I could even hammer him at this point, but I won't, because I'm not scum and I'm not sure he's scum either). The point of playing town is to scumhunt and to make plays that are at town's best interest.

You're scummy because you fell for the bait. You were quick to make accusations of me, because I didn't jump on the wagon like everyone else. It's a scum tactic. Should scrutiny fall on me later, I'll be sure to defend myself and prove that I've got town's best interests at heart. If you were simply scumhunting, my earlier replies would have been enough to vindicate me, and if this reply doesn't do it for you, then you're truly grasping at straws.
The fact that your response to being called out as scum isn't to vindicate yourself, but to call me out even more as scum is pretty trashy, too. If you're town, stop making such baseless accusations. It does nothing for town.
You'll probably advocate a Mutley/Varsoon scumteam if it'll get lynches, because it seems like I'm defending him. Mutley could flip scum this game, but going from how he played his last game, and how he's playing this one, I'm less sure of him being scum than I am of other players who don't have such an outlandish playstyle.

[Varsoon]

The way I see it, Mutley should give us his reads right now and make a case for why he isn't scum.
Hopefully, it's more than him hammering himself like he did before.

[Varsoon]

What are you smoking?

I call BS on you not pushing the mutley wagon. You posted a flat out dare. BS BS BS.

Oh, so by analyzing your bickering with DDDP clears you? Oh wait it was asking for people to UNVOTE you. Right, that must have been it. Sorry. Also, you BAIT was garbage and you know it. Again, so the whole agreement against mutley is him doing instantly scummy thing. So now that you've done it we should PL you next right. PL are crap.

DDDP, I'm thinking back to our first game. Worst mafia did this same very thing and he was town. I don't like this lynch it just too easy. I see him as town.

Looks like you're another player I'll just have to agree to disagree with.

Your buddying is noted, though.

VOTE: Paid Pyro

Keep it up while you can.

[Varsoon]

Hey DDDP, I think he's saying we're buddies. I guess we'll laugh it up in the QT later

Scumbluffing is not a town tactic.

[Varsoon]

sorry should have posted it before. So when I joke about being scum its harmful to town. When pyro does it its fine and not the same?

This. There's a fair deal of hypocrisy in this game.

Wow we have a bunch of uptight people in here 4 pages prob about 15 posts by me and that's too much and harming the town. Nice....... Can't see how in 4 pages anyone could possibly actually be 'harming' the town. If I had only posted once or twice. Would you guys have had some huge leads then? No it's day 1 with 4 pages.

For me I'd say mist is my only mafia target at the moment. Covering it up by calling it a policy lynch etc even though its 3 pages in etc. just mafia covering for poor reasoning really IMO.

In terms on that meta thing varsoon I would really care enough to do that. Every game is different and I'd never actually look at other people's previous games. As while they could be useful I am sure people do that to trick people. They say oh look that's what I'm like etc or act different to their advantage. Eg they could say look how I was when I was scum in this game nothing like I am in this current game etc

I disagree, it's quite easy to completely alter the flow of the game within the first four pages. I wish that players would realize RVS isn't eons long and ends as soon as anyone makes worthwhile plays and that, as a pro-town player, people should try to make such plays.

I'm leaning scum on Mist, too.

I also agree that meta'ing a player is a poor method of ISO'ing them. People will play differently under different circumstances and assuming a modernist approach to identity simply doesn't work in a game of rhetoric that has every player review their words before posting them.

As far as your other posts go, I wouldn't make such personal attacks on other players regardless of alignment.

I'm fairly certain RadiantCowbells is town, and I'm leaning town on you, too, due to your responses.

Regardless of Mutley being scum or not, everyone shouldn't forget that there are two scum players in the game.
I suggest we find good evidence of another one--one who is likely on Mutley's wagon.

As far as thinking things over, just hit preview before you submit. Re-read your post, and if you've thought of new things to add, do it then. That way, you don't clutter discussion with several posts back-to-back. I'm guilty of this, too, though.

[Varsoon]

I'd like to hear from Zaggoth and DDDP on why they still have votes on Mutley, and if/why they think he should still be the D1 lynch.
Especially since neither have posted much since voting on him.

I'm suspicious of Mist, especially since she seems so adamant to keep this wagon rolling. Could just be town doing the whole scumhunting thing. Mist, how do you feel about lynching Mutley D1--do you think it's stupid to have a player at L-1 when two of the votes on him were parked there and the players who made them (DDDP and Zaggoth) haven't posted since? What do you think will happen if he flips town? What if he flips scum?

[Varsoon]

As of now, I am not convinced that Mutley is scum. Why?
He hasn't led a wagon on a single player, nor has he strongly advocated lynching anyone.
The only player that he's given a scum-read on is Mist, but his vote is still parked on Shaboos despite it seeming more like an RVS vote/reaction test.

Honestly, he's done the most pro-town work so far, because by scumbluffing like he has, the other players have responded in a myriad of ways. Even if he is scum, this has given good reads and taken the game in a solid direction that was necessary during RVS.

Regardless, I wouldn't rule him out as scum so quickly, but I'd prefer to lynch a scum-candidate whose flip would do something more constructive for the game.

[Varsoon]

Good reads, Zoggoth, this is a good example of how to produce reads and what they should look like.

With that, you're definitely more town in my book.

Right now, I'm largely null on most of you, leaning town on Mutley, Mist, Zoggoth, and DDDP.
Leaning scum on Paid Pyro, and with the points that Zoggoth made about Dexter, I'm suspecting him as well.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon may I ask what has changed since post 104 where you say you are leaning scum on mist yet your latest post is leaning town. She hasn't posted since so maybe you looked back and saw something?

In light of Zoggoth's reads, I went back and re-evaluated a couple of players. While Mist seemed scum to me at first for pushing your wagon along, I thought about it more and her reactions seemed to come from the perspective of an annoyed town rather than manipulative scum. Either way, it's one of the reads I'm iffier about, so I'll be on the fence until more posts are made.

Good catch, though. This sort of post is way more productive than scumbluffing or insulting another player, or, at the very least, is more effective where we are in the game. I feel like the way you played earlier, while seemingly-scummy, also moved the game forward a lot and it was an effective play at the time, but now that we have information to springboard from, everyone should play more carefully and spend time analyzing what others have posted.

[Varsoon]

DDDP, where were we at page three?
Thanks to Mutley, we have 3 more pages of actual content.
If you don't think that his posts, in some way, have moved this game forward,
Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'd like more people to give reads.

[Varsoon]

I'm not so sure about the Radiant-lurk-scum idea.

I've checked the thread a few times without replying, too.
Nothing's happening and lots of people are inactive.
Does this make me scum?
Hardly.

[Varsoon]

Well, since I'm here, is there anything you want to discuss about the game or with me?

[Varsoon]

Thanks to Mutley, we have 3 more pages of actual content.
If you don't think that his posts, in some way, have moved this game forward,
Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I could post "banana banana banana" for three straight pages but that wouldn't help the game state and in fact might irritate people into lynching me which would be a net negative.

~~

@Anyone/Everyone, if you had to lynch one of the SEs which one would you lynch and why?

~~

UNVOTE:
VOTE: shaboostein

True, but if people responded to you posting that in a myriad of different ways, it would allow people to get reads from them.
Why the Shaboos vote?

I'd lynch Pyro for the same reasons I said I'd vote Pyro earlier.

[Varsoon]

DDDP, thanks for the pressure, actually got me to bust my butt and find a computer to get on. (I'm assuming it was pressure)

@Anyone/Everyone, if you had to lynch one of the SEs which one would you lynch and why?

Mist at the moment. Jumps on wagons and seems to go with the group. Paid Pyro doesn't seem afraid to go against Varsoon, who most are assuming as town. Makes me think of him more pro-town.

RC's acting weird. His arguments against mutley, as well as the entire mutley wagon made sense, but now that mutley's actually trying to post content and get involved (versus making the scum-slip jokes), I don't think policy lynching him D1 would be beneficial. I find the game lacking in scum reads right now though, especially with the multey wagon still being disputed.

I'm fine with leaving my vote on RC at the moment. Start playing or get replaced. (I'm not sure what the replacement procedures are. Just PM the mod I guess)

You seemed to react pretty quickly to the 'pressure' put on you, despite being absent for so long. Anyway, I agree with your points on the RC lynch, but Policy lynching is always a dumb idea. Always. Let her replace out, and if the replacement gives us scummy content, then we can lynch. As of now, it's just too easy a wagon for scum to push, too.

[Varsoon]

Because the pressure on me makes no sense and no town in their right mind would confirm intent to hammer based on the logic given by the three votes on me thus far.

You want out of this game, right?
Better start working on doing a good job of being town, and real fast.
Currently, this response is pretty OMGUS and base-covering if anyone does express intent to hammer.

Have an L-1, it'll help town more than the content you've produced so far.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[Varsoon]

Nice case, Pyro, but I'm sussing out players and applying pressure too much in too many places. I suppose you could assume that's fence sitting, but, regardless.
This is a really hard OMGUS move on your part. I build a case on you, you ISO me, etc, etc.

How do you feel about RC and Shaboos wagons that are -currently- happening?


P-Edit:
So putting more pressure on a player by putting them at L-1 equals scum, amirite?
Oh, and if she flips town, feel free to suspect me. And, you know, everyone else on her wagon.
It's not like I'm actually hammering, and if anyone does hammer, it's going to be a play they'll have to explain alongside my justification for putting her at L-1.

This game is seriously lacking in activity and movement.

[Varsoon]

I'll say it here, just in case I happen to forget to some other time.

If you guys do decide to build a wagon on me,
and you actually lynch me,
when I flip, keep in mind that it was Pyro who, in boldface, asked you to do it.

[Varsoon]

Paid Pyro's logic is solid and I find little wrong with it.
At the very least, Varsoon should defend himself.

Vote: Varsoon

Nice OMGUS and hop onto a wagon to distract from attention that's on you now that you're L-1.
Instead of defending yourself, I should do so, right?
That's a deflect, and quite the slip considering that Pyro came in and put a vote on me and mentioned how he didn't agree with your wagon in his post. That's either scum-team or serious buddying.
Either way, your play isn't very town.

What points would you like me to defend myself on, though?
Do you have any questions of your own?


Haha, you're squirming pretty hard, Pyro.

[Varsoon]

Keep squirming.

While RC, who I still think is town, hasn't replied yet, I've gotten plenty out of you.

VOTE: Paid Pyro


Welcome back to the thread.

[Varsoon]

Wait didn't Varsoon say earlier that whoever puts someone at L-1 is scum?

Notice how no one hammered RC?

[Varsoon]

Hi guys, looking forward to play with you all.

Welcome to the game. It's pretty customary to put a vote on me, so feel free to do so.

Speaking towards why I put RC at L-1 but not Muttley:
Muttley's lynch would have been a policy lynch, and I feel that we had pressured him adequately with where he was at.
RC, even at L-1, and after the wagon slowed down, didn't really put anything into the thread.
ISO RC and you'll be able to see just how little content has been generated there.
Regardless, I'm between calling either town or scum on RC. Some of the reactions RC had to Muttley's playstyle, etc, felt like genuine town concern, whereas other posts felt like scumslips. The fact that RC wanted to replace out when such an easy wagon exists (and I feel like my wagon is easy, too) still strikes me as very, very town, even if other posts betray scumtells to me.

I don't have any scum buddies because I'm not scum.
Also, PP has been tunneling me hard and we still haven't put any pressure on him at all.
Can we consider some of the other players in this game for a change, though?
We'll get nowhere if we just focus on the same people, and it's easy for scum to narrow town's suspects down and keep themselves from being suspect.

[Varsoon]

I just did a quick scan to get active. I already said this. This thread has a lot of clutter, which makes it hard to get through. You got yourself to thank for that as well.
Anyway, since he ignored the question and hasn't defended himself:

VOTE: Varsoon

On what grounds would you like me to defend myself?

Also, sorry, which question?

[Varsoon]

Why aren't you reading the thread? The questions are right there.

Then quote them or tell me the post number.
I'm in 5 games right now. Sorry if I'm not taking ten extra minutes to find something for you.
If it's really that much of a ball-buster, I'll ISO you and find whatever question that you asked me.
Except, you know, you asked it.
I'm also giving you a chance to ask me, directly, any other questions you have.
Make use of it.

[Varsoon]

Well Shaboo was very scummy towards the end. You have come in and tried to be over the top town imo. Going through the whole thread sort of making points that haven't really needed to be made as they have already been dealt with etc. Feels a bit over compensating.

I could see this, and I find FH's posts a bit suspicious too, since he's clearly putting a lot down in a little time. While I like the questions you've been asking, I'm also skeptical of the vote on me and how you entered thread with several posts prodding and calling out certain players. I'm pretty suspicious of people on my wagon, RC's, and Muttley's, and from some PoE I've whittled it down to

Paid Pyro - Has always been on my wagon. /shrug.
Shaboos - Originally on my wagon, left it for RC's wagon, then was replaced by FH who hopped on my wagon and put me at L-1.
DDP - Was on the Muttley Wagon, then swapped to Shaboos wagon with RC, then to my wagon.

Prod dodge. Well lets get some content.

I don't really like FH entrance. I mean, there is quote lists for a reason, or you could have grouped stuff up. Why did you have to write separate little posts for each?

And I never did the reads because I was lazy to do so... I usually get my reads done by the end of the day to get my thoughts out for the night.

It's really easy for scum to be lazy. Can you give us reads now, please?

Actually, the fact that FH put me at L-1 and didn't say anything about it really strikes me hard.
It makes me seriously consider FH's status as town, since my wagon's an easy push AND since Shaboos' votes were largely opportunistic as well.

[Varsoon]

Right so as freexing hell said no need to stop scum hunting. So I looked at those on the 3 L-1 wagons. DDDP has been on me and Varsoon. Dexter has been on me and RC.

Both move up in scumminess. Dexter more so as he has been on the two 'lets lynch the unhelpful guy'

Right now I'm pretty split between Dexter, DDDP, and FH.

FH seems pretty town in some posts, but pretty scum in others. Then, you also have to consider how Shaboos played.

Either way, I don't like DDDP's lurking, either.

[Varsoon]

Also, I'm at L-1, so if anyone wants to ask me questions regarding my alignment, or to discern my alignment, please do so before unvoting me or hammering.

[Varsoon]

While I am suspicious of you varsoon, as I stated earlier for me you are not a day 1 lynch. I also agree with those 3 you are split on. I am sure there is 1 scum in there. Therefore we stand a better chance lynching one of those 3. I find it hard with their voting that none of them are scum.

Preference -- Freezing Hell

DDDP
Dexter

So, you'd rather vote for FH than DDDP and Dexter?

Honestly, FH and DDDP are top of my list.
In fact, I don't know why I didn't do this in the post I made earlier when I made a case on FH. Guess it'd seem a bit OMGUS? Whatever, doesn't mean my case isn't a solid one.

VOTE: FrozenHell

[Varsoon]

What if this is some crazy setup where we're all scum but we just don't know it?

Anyway, DDDP, how do you feel about FH?

[Varsoon]

FH, good points.
Will write more later when I have time.

[Varsoon]

Lynch me and I'll flip town.
What information will you get out of that?


We've got another week, feel free to look into other possible scumspects.

[Varsoon]

@DDP: Meant the Varsoon wagon.

Well I think I've pretty much answered that and if I was bothered by the people on the wagon surely I would be off it.

Varsoon: show, don't tell.

The only way to show is for you to lynch me and see.
This is a game of telling.

[Varsoon]

@DDP: Meant the Varsoon wagon.

Well I think I've pretty much answered that and if I was bothered by the people on the wagon surely I would be off it.

Varsoon: show, don't tell.

The only way to show is for you to lynch me and see.
This is a game of telling.

If you flip town, who do you hope we lynch next?

Right now, I feel like Freezing Hell is scum, because I tend to feel that at least one of the active players is scum and at least one lurker tends to be scum.
If I am lynched, I hope everyone who is town spends more time and puts in more posts that'll help make scum and town clearer.

[Varsoon]

I don't like how Mist plays the game. I always read Mist as scummy.

That said, I think that doing an ISO of Mist and paying very close attention to how she interacts with her scum suspects and how she speaks for herself when called out will be telling.
With -that- said, I'm still really biased against her, so I shouldn't do it.

[Varsoon]

Right now, the people capable of putting the hammer on me are Zog, Mist, Dexter, and Mutley.

Sadly, only Zog and Mutley are my town reads, but their towncred with me would go way down if they lynched me.

[Varsoon]

I think that my posts already prove that so far. If I was to make a case for myself being town, it would be a constructed effort, and, therefore, liable to be speculated as scum covering his ass. My case for myself lies in you (and other players) clicking the drop down menu next to the words 'Display Posts by user:', clicking my name, and looking through all of my posts, my interactions with other players, etc, and making an informed decision off of how I have played throughout the whole of the game rather than what I say in one post.

As for your second point/question, I don't know what you mean by that. Explain?

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I'd help you, if only to get better reads on Mist in future games. I also think there's a chance of Mist-scum in this game, so, yeah.


Again, we have pretty different approaches to the game. I'm not scum because I'm town. Would you like to see town lynched? Do you think that lynching me is better than spending the time to find actual scum? Would my flip help town out at all?

If multiple people express that they really want me to make a case for myself as town, I'll do it, but right now, it boils down to a matter of either manipulating my rhetoric to convince you, or hoping you'll trust me on this one.

[Varsoon]

Because I'm town.

[Varsoon]

@DDP: Meant the Varsoon wagon.

Well I think I've pretty much answered that and if I was bothered by the people on the wagon surely I would be off it.

Varsoon: show, don't tell.

The only way to show is for you to lynch me and see.
This is a game of telling.

[Varsoon]

We already had this discussion.

Please, contribute some more to town.

[Varsoon]

The most? Right now it's Dexter, DDDP, and FH. I'm feeling really strongly on the Dexter vote, since he's got the ability to hammer me, but hasn't yet, and still has yet to explain why he thinks I'm town instead of scum. To me, it's a safe move for scum not to hammer, and Dexter doesn't want that kind of attention. So, honestly, I'd be down for a Dexter lynch, then a FH lynch, then DDDP.

The least?
Me.
But otherwise, I guess Shaboos or Muttley. Just wouldn't give much pro-town content at this point.

[Varsoon]

Just don't think it'd be a worthwhile flip at the current time.

There's also not very many active players in this game.

[Varsoon]

Oh, for reals?
Makes sense that he hasn't posted in awhile then ><

Sorry, was clicking through the ISO button and looking at older posts.

Did someone replace RC, too, or is RC still playing?

[Varsoon]

Yeah, guess my last lynch choice would be RC and Mutley.
My first one right now would be Dexter.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Dexter
Seriously, though.

[Varsoon]

Sorry for the delay, IRL work.

I'll do the same thing as last time (in multiple posts, so I don't get caught halfway through this again) concentrating on posts since my last mass read.

DDDP:

In 212 he seems suspiciously evasive in revealing his reasons for his opinions and still seems to expect people to agree with him even though 'Unhelpful answers are no more useful than not answering questions'. This kind of thing has been going on for most of the game:

@DDDP the fact that you're IC doesn't mean we should listen to you without reasoning.

I don't know how serious he was early on, but if he doesn't give some reasoning, I will just ignore his conclusions.

More recently he seems to be working relatively sensibly trying to get varsoon to give out enough information to get him off [L-1], but to be honest this looks incredibly suspicious. The sudden change of topic onto mist, who isn't here to defend herself a lot, looks like it could be scumteam trying to communicate. This sheds new light on '@Anyone/Everyone, if you had to lynch one of the SEs which one would you lynch and why?'.

Based on this, I would put forward the idea of DDDP/Varsoon scumteam. Their argument early on could easily be read as bussing, which we would expect from an experienced scum. However, as the day has gone on, varsoon has become more focused by others and began panicking. DDDP attempted a hint in 140 and 270 on how to proceed, but as the situation went from bad to worse, he has been forced to go all out and suggest an alternative lynch directly to varsoon. However Varsoon has continued to bus DDDP, forcing DDDP to back off and demand proof from him.

Although this argument makes sense to me, I would like someone elses take on it as well, as I'm obviously a bit biased towards myself.

More ideas soon, along with overall townlist and scumlist at the end.

Yeah, too bad that theory only works if I'm scum.

DDDP, though, he can be scum. I'm not.

[Varsoon]

Woah, Mist, I like this idea.


Well, I see Varsoon as

town

/scum (bold one) because my role PM says it.

[Varsoon]

It would be nice, to see how people saw him, if we do have a flip.

You can just look back at the posts. You'll likely do that anyway. Kinda pointless.

C'mon, FH, just play along.

[Varsoon]

Cool.

Can someone lynch me so you can shut these idiots up?

[Varsoon]

DDDP, feel free to go look at my Micro 158. I'm in what I feel is essentially the same boat. I'm town and no one gives a damn about who I think is scum.

[Varsoon]

Alright, gimme awhile to recoup, sleep, wake up, look over the thread, and make a good argument towards my townhood.

Until then, please don't lynch me. I don't think town gets much from just lynching town.

[Varsoon]

Alright, gimme awhile to recoup, sleep, wake up, look over the thread, and make a good argument towards my townhood.

Until then, please don't lynch me. I don't think town gets much from just lynching town.

How hard is it to claim? It shouldn't take this long if you are truly town.

Zogg, did I miss your vote?

If varsoon keeps stalling, I am hammering. Scum tend to find it harder and harder to make time to post when they have suspicion.

Oh, PaidPyro, you tool, you.

Also, I'm hardly stalling. You may not have noticed, but I haven't been online for most of the weekend. Other business and all that.

Anyway, I'm town. I'm not going to tell you my role PM, as claiming either a PR or VT does too much work for scum at this point. If scum wants to see my role, they'll have to try to NK me.

That said, I'm interested in the likelihood of scum on my wagon. Zoggoth raises some good points, but I can't really discern if that's scum lining up lynches after I flip town or not. While I like that he's coming to my defense, I'm also really skeptical of his play.

My defense of Mutley was made solely in light of the previous game he was in where he pinged scum very hard despite being town, and due to his actions, that game ended up in LyLo.
I did not want to see a repeat of that game, and, furthermore, I wanted to see how Mutley would play if he was given time to outlive his scum-acting reaction-tests.
Since then, I've come to the conclusion that while acting scummy in a game certainly gives lots of reads, it also confuses town and causes lots of town in-fighting. It just doesn't benefit town that much.

In post 87, I make a small case for myself being town, but say that I'll prove my townhood if further pressured. Guess that's what's happening now.

My post 90 is a pressuring vote.

In 106, I ask players why they still have votes parked. I don't see why scum would ask this sort of thing, or why scum wouldn't just idly push for the easy wagon earlier in the game (Mutley) for a super-early D1 lynch. If I was scum, that's what I would do. As town, I want to know people's motivations behind their votes, and I want to keep town from lynching town. This is evident in lots of my posts, so feel free to ISO me and see that.

In 135, I shoot down baseless arguments for scumhood that are rooted in thinking that lurking = scum. If a player is really idle, and doesn't produce a lot of content/bandwagons a bunch, then, yeah, they're more scum-suspect than others, but I don't like starting a wagon out of flimsy arguments, nor do I like voting on one for the same reasons.

155 is a pressure vote, and RC has yet to produce any really solid content.

158 explains my 155 vote and plays towards me being town. Narrowing who you suspect to be scum is always a bad idea, and so, I always try to call attention to the fact that tunneling is happening, and try to broaden other player's views on the playerbase in a game.

I think that my 164 and 168 certainly speak towards the possibility of scum being on RC's wagon.

221 speaks towards more of my logic as town.

Anyway, I'm seeing Paid Pyro, DDDP, and Frozen Hell as my top scum-suspects at this current point in the game. PP is just too inactive for how he's playing the game/handling his votes, FH has a bad case of tunneling, and DDDP just feels like scum.

Of course, I'd like to speak towards this angle. I believe their was scum on the Muttley wagon, the RC wagon, and on my wagon. Keep in mind that Shaboostien was replaced by FH. Here's those three:

MUTLEY WAGON: Zoggoth, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Mist7676, dexter9264
RC WAGON: shaboostein, dexter9264, Mutleyddmc
VARSOON WAGON: Paid Pyro, RadiantCowbell, Debonair Danny DiPietro, freezing-hell


With DDDP and FH on two of these wagons, I'm most wary of those players.

Guess my vote stays on FH for now.

Anyway, if you lynch me, I'll flip town, and that's just not going to do a lot of work for town.
Lynch the scum, and make a good case for it.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: DDDP

I just don't like you. You are a bad IC imo. You are so far up yourself. Don't help anyone really, hide 'information'. Some sort of God complex. It's day 1 we are likely to hit town anyway. So I'd rather just get rid of you even if you are town now

Man, this speaks to the core of why I don't like DDDP as a player.
As far as me thinking he's scum, I just made a longpost for that.

[Varsoon]

I might have missed a few votes when I wrote out the wagons, as I went based off of a Messiah ISO. I think RC was also on the Mutley wagon at one point.
Anyway, that's that. No omissions or reaction testing in my post 366. Everything there is true to how I feel.

[Varsoon]

Is your vote actually on FH varsoon?

VOTE: Frozen-Hell

If not, now it is.


Also, DDDP, I could levy a bigger case against you, but you're not the lynch that I want to pursue on D1. If you're town, I think you could be a valuable town player.

Also-also, I'm not going to hop on your Mist wagon (even though I had scumreads on Mist earlier in this game) solely because I'm at L-1. That'd be a shitty reason to vote, and, furthermore, you using the power of your vote on me to further fuel a Mist wagon reads as really lame in my books. I'd like to know why you proposed that option at all.

On the whole Mist thing, I have trouble reading Mist, and always feel she's scum in the games we've been in together. Something to do with post-formatting and frequency, I guess. I can never get an honest read on her that isn't leaning scum.

[Varsoon]

Oh, I don't know, because that's manipulative and a generally shitty way of going about the game?

Why not produce a hard ISO on Mist, and, you know, try to convince -all of the players of our game-, rather than pressuring me into flipping my vote onto someone I'm on the fence about solely because you have some sort of 'leverage' over me?

As far as pursuing other lynches, I think I'll have plenty of chances to do that, even from the grave. Town doesn't lose until all of town dies, and I think that my interactions now can fuel a whole lot of pro-town content even after my flip.

[Varsoon]

This is where we stand on different sides of the argument. I see Mafia as a game of rhetoric, and that manipulation is only a factor if you are scum.

Give me a hand? Laughable. You're trying to browbeat me into a 'better position', but taking you up on this 'offer' doesn't exonerate me of any suspicion. If I wanted to establish myself as town, taking that easy way out and partnering with you on a weak lynch that I don't support would be the last thing I'd consider. Furthermore, you're trying to convince me to lynch based off of literally no information other that 'I think Mist is scum and I have a vote on you, vote Mist and I'll take my vote off of you'. That's not compelling, it's lame. It's literally the most boring argument you could make to convince me to put my vote on Mist. I don't vote out of pressure, and I don't vote without confident reason. I'm not going to park a vote on Mist until you make a compelling argument for why you think she is scum--and even if I did put a vote on Mist then, it wouldn't be due to the fact you have a vote on me, it'd be because I legitimately want to scumhunt.

I like that you're quick to seal my coffin. If it weren't for how strongly I feel for my FH vote, I'd put my vote on you. You're really not doing a good case of positioning yourself as town, and, furthermore, you're twisting my words further. I never said that I'd be more use dead than alive. You said that. I simply stated that even if I were to be lynched, the posts I've made will help fuel pro-town content. Never did I say that the content produced then would be better or more substantial than possible content I'd produce if I was alive.

DDDP, I'd like you to back the fuck off of my case, stop twisting my words, and put your vote on your Mist wagon if you believe that's a more likely scum candidate. Furthermore, I'd like you to actually engage in convincing all of town that Mist is a good lynch, rather than insisting that I switch my vote. You aren't even holding the hammer on me. The fact you still have a vote on me, despite having Mist as a higher scum suspect--that just reeks. Play the game in a more pro-town fashion, because as of now, you're not helping your case in my eyes.

[Varsoon]

While I'm suspecting Mist and Zog for getting on my FH wagon and still being on it, they're hardly as scum-suspect as DDDP and FH for me. I'll re-evaluate them if DDDP or FH flips town, but right now, I'm putting scum between those four, with possible inclusion of Dexter.

[Varsoon]

DDDP, you assume that someone else is going to lynch me, or that my wagon is going to go through.

I'm thoroughly convinced that if I do something as spineless as putting a vote on Mist right now, I'll be lynched.

Besides, it's not a vote I believe in, and you've done nothing to convince me that Mist is scum.

If you wanted my vote on Mist, there are at least a hundred other things you could have said had you been a witty man of many letters. Unfortunately, you are completely witless, and a man of few letters; Only four, that spell the word 'fool'.

[Varsoon]

Good luck trying to run the game

Spoiler:

into the ground

, though.

[Varsoon]

Yes, and all of those situations are better for town than me putting my vote on Mist.

If I was scum, maybe I'd be a little more worried about my own survival. However, when it comes down to putting out a vote solely to continue to survive in a game, I think I'll stick to what I believe.

I'm not that cynical, DDDP.

[Varsoon]

I'd like to know why Mist is such likely scum.
C'mon, DDDP, lay it out for me.

[Varsoon]

Also you should all scratch behind your ears if you think I'm scummy because I'm asking and probing a lot of questions. Also, me and tunneling...........what? I can't at the same time accuse everyone and tunnel. Will respond into more detail tomorrow. I'll explain who I want to see lynched, and why (since that apparently isn't completely clear) and why the case on me is completely crap. See you all on the morrow.

Sorry, FH, I might be confusing this game with another one. ><

[Varsoon]

To speak towards DDDP's case, I could read it in that light, but I read Mist as scum in pretty much every Mist game. It's something in the shortness/format/content of Mist's posts. Always strikes me as scummy, even when she's town. Regardless, it's not something to rule out.

[Varsoon]

Honestly, I could see RC as scum easier than I could see Mist.
We've only got 22 hours left, though, and the flip would help me better gauge DDDP, FH, and the other fence-sitters in this game.

Vote: Mist

Mist'll flip town, though.

[Varsoon]

So, Mist, since you're here, make a case for yourself.

Not that it matters, since you're town.

[Varsoon]

I, honestly, think that DDDP's case on you isn't that compelling.

But you're also not that productive in this game and if you flip town, it'll let me build a much better case on the people I really think are scum.

[Varsoon]

Honestly, I could see RC as scum easier than I could see Mist.
We've only got 22 hours left, though, and the flip would help me better gauge DDDP, FH, and the other fence-sitters in this game.

Vote: Mist

Mist'll flip town, though.

Tunnel alert. He's positive she's town yet votes her. This guy is scum. Votes here please.

Keep squirming and trying to line up lynches, PP.

You're so scum it pains me, but I'll spend Day 2 making my case against you.

[Varsoon]

Pfft, that's some serious reaching that you're doing, PP. I

figure

I'll still be here because I'd be a stupid NK.
Keep trying to express how town you are by saying that you might not be around tomorrow. You'd also be a really worthless NK.
You're tunneling the player with the second biggest wagon so far, and continuing to do so even in twilight.
How is that -not- lining up a lynch?

[Varsoon]

As I said, keep squirming.

[Varsoon]

FH, it seems you are far too happy with the mist wagon thats happened along with varsoon being the other candidate. Is that because you know both are town.

VOTE: Freezing Hell

Trying one last time for his lynch

I'd really be happy with an FH lynch.

VOTE: Freezing Hell

I'm tired of people not listening to me in my games.
Will answer questions when I have some more time, going to class.

[Varsoon]

Mostly a pressure vote, and I'd like to see what you'd flip.

Oh, also, you know, I've thought you were scum since you entered the game.

[Varsoon]

Fairly certain that neither Mist or I am scum.

I'll be pretty damn surprised if mist flips scum.

Here are my reads:
DDDP: Annoying to play with, null-leaning town.
Mutley: Town. If he's scum, I'd be pretty surprised.
FH: Null-leaning Scum. Hard to get a solid read on, responds poorly under pressure.
PP: Scum. I want this lynch.
RC: Null-leaning town. Not enough content. Needs pressure.
Dexter: Scum. Not enough content. Needs pressure. No one pays attention to him.
Mist: Town. Possibility of scum? 10%.
Zoggoth: Null. Hard for me to read.
Varsoon: Town. My role PM says so.

[Varsoon]

We have three hours, and I'd rather lynch Paid Pyro than anyone else here.

If you want to lynch Mist, someone put her at L-1 and I'll hammer it, just so you can get the town flip and feel like idiots.

[Varsoon]

Mutley, that's a heavy call to make.
We've got 3 hours.
I'll be in this thread for all 3.

[Varsoon]

Even if I put her at L-1, there's literally nothing confirming that she'll be hammered right now.

The ONLY active players in this game as of this moment are three people on the Mist wagon and me,
It takes five to lynch.
I hope you can do that math.

[Varsoon]

I'd prefer a lynch over no lynch, but there's no reason to rush a decision between anyone until the last hour.
That said, I know I'm town.
I can't say that for FH.

[Varsoon]

I promise you, I

will hammer

if someone puts Mist at L-1.

Edit: Bold tags ~Messiah

[Varsoon]

Oh, man, I messed that bold up.

Mod, can you fix that?

[Varsoon]

Thanks, Messiah.

Hey, Messiah doesn't have a vote on anyone.
Messiah, who do you think is scum out of these three wagons?
I know it says you're on V/LA, but you just posted, so, yeah.


@Mutley: If no one does by the last hour, we can decide between my wagon and FH's.

[Varsoon]

FH is trying to pressure us into quick-lynching me without thinking out the other options at hand.

[Varsoon]

To address your points, though:

A) Every reaction test ever could be painted this way. Clearly grasping at straws for a lynch.
B) And I hold by that. Paid Pyro is scum.
C) Because no one cares. I've tried to be pretty overt about this. Paid Pyro is my top scum suspect.
D) If you want me to ISO out PP and make a huge, long-winded case, I'll do so. As of now, it should be apparent that he's scum.
E) At the time, Shaboo and FH were scummy. Right now, only FH is striking me as scum.
F) Because town-slips = scum, amirite?
G) I was very outspoken with how exhausted I was with MafiaScum that week.
H) I voted for you because it's a wagon I feel more confident about. I feel more confident about it because you've pushed poor wagons all day.
I) I've already claimed town, and, at this point, it should be pretty apparent from my interactions.
J) You'd rather I exhaust myself doing your work for you? If you are town, you should be able to discern this easily.
K) OMGUS harder.


FH, to be fair, I'm putting you closer to town, but you're advocated the worst lynch in the game right now.

[Varsoon]

Oh, look, an idiot came in and, you know, rather than waiting for a case by me or anything, hammers me.

Congrats, FH, you just lost the game for town.

[Varsoon]

Zoggoth, I should be confirmed town at this point. Lynching confirmed town is not better than a no lynch, especially when we had two very good lynch options before us. Mist had a chance of being scum, and the mist flip would tell us a lot about the people pushing her wagon.

FH's flip would give us really good reads on practically everyone in the game, too.

By lynching me, you get virtually no information. Congrats on lynching town, feel free to build an actual case on Paid Pyro now.

Why not let people actually post and defend themselves next time?

This game was a headache, and while I'm glad that I'm out of it, I really hope town loses, despite being VT. I was never taken seriously, and a majority of the people in this game are inactive or so damn cynical that they'll never get anything done.

[Varsoon]

Oh, look, an idiot came in and, you know, rather than waiting for a case by me or anything, hammers me.

Congrats, FH, you just lost the game for town.

You deserve what you got and the game is far from over.

If anyone deserves a lynch, it's you. You've been pushing really weak wagons, and your style of play is atrocious. You're not any fun to play with, either.

[Varsoon]

If you want to ask me any questions in twilight, though, feel free to do so. I'll answer to the best of my abilities.

[Varsoon]

As bitter as I am towards the fact I got lynched, I'd still like the game to at least be more than chickens running around with their heads cut off.

[Varsoon]

I would rather an FH flip than a Mist flip, to be honest.

FH's putting me at L-1 was the least thoughtful thing he could do, as town or as scum.

I really hope that you guys start taking the game seriously, stop sheeping each other, consider the myriad of players who are just lurking and making opportunistic posts, and really get on the ball.

[Varsoon]

FH was who I wanted. As you say even if all 3 of you were town. I think we would learn most about an FH flip.

I really wanted the FH flip, too.

I honestly think we're all likely to be town, though.

Scum's running this game.

Also, Jesus, DDDP, you couldn't be more of an annoyance to play with.

[Varsoon]

I still feel that Varsoon has a decent chance of being scum. More so than Mist and FH. I will say tho that Zoggoth jumping in to hammer is really not sitting well with me.

Dude, I'm lynched. Why would I lie right now about my alignment?

[Varsoon]

In my experience, most scum just come out and say it.

I'm VT, though. :/

[Varsoon]

Told you.

Now go lynch the scum.

[Varsoon]

Man, Dexter and Zoggoth?
You guys won the second it became a town versus town game on day 1.