Micro 158: borkgame (Game Over)

[Jennifer]

Wow, you guys move fast! 7 pages, L-1... anyway, hi!

VOTE: Varsoon

Reading through, I don't see why RachMarie got to L-1 instead of Varsoon.
- Varsoon: I really don't like that he said Sven was "kinda super scum" but didn't vote him. If he has a reason to think someone is scum, it's no longer a random vote so the "NO RVS philosophy" isn't even applicable.

That said, I don't like that RachMarie hasn't voted anyone since her RVS vote on Majiffy, despite actively engaging in the game.

@RachMarie
- Why haven't you voted anybody since your RVS vote?
- Why did you provide an answer on why Majiffy voted for you instead of waiting for Majiffy to come back in the thread and explain?

@Varsoon
- Why are you not voting your scum read? And, at this point with this much content, I think it's safe to say there is enough meat here that we aren't in RVS anymore (or user-defined RVS since you don't believe in it). Do you agree?
- Can you provide a better answer to Icebox's question on what "absolute statements" you thought Sven was making. Your answer in post 85 didn't make sense to me and didn't read as responsive.

@Sven
- Please explain why Selkies is a town lean for you.

@Majiffy
Why the vote on RachMarie?

@DisturbedOne
- Can you explain what posts you read before your initial vote on RachMarie. You said that you meant it to be RVS and hadn't seen other posts since Day 1, but since we're in Day 1 I'm not sure what that means...
- Why are you voting Sven?

@Icebox
- Why did you switch your vote back to RachMarie?
- Were you satisfied with Varsoon's answers to your question?
- Why does Rach seem scummier to you than Varsoon?

@Bo
- Why do you think Icebox is weird for 'pulling Varsoon out of nowhere' but don't commend on the weirdness of voting Rach after not even getting much of a response from Varsoon?
- Do you think town always fully explain their reads/changes in reads?

@Selkies
- What made you choose to vote Icebox over Varsoon?

I won't have a chance to post again until later today or tomorrow because I'm in meetings and then have a flight home. Catch up with you all later!

p-edit Argh... tried to submit and saw that like 20 new posts popped up. Won't have time to read/respond to those now.

[Jennifer]

Oh my god, you guys...

1 day and already 16 more pages...

I will go through today to get an updated sense of things (and pray there aren't 16 more pages by the time I do).

FYI, my activity level is completely dependent on how busy things are at work. Luckily, I'm back home today so it should hopefully be slower so I can get on the same page as you guys.

[Jennifer]

Okay, guys. I'm trying a surgical strike.

Consider my vote on Rach, but I am not yet switching because I saw while trying to catch up that she has some more votes on her again, and I'm not sure of the exact vote count.


@Varsoon
You mentioned here that your statement that Sven was kinda scummy was a reaction test. But it leaves me with the question: at that point did you consider Sven kinda scummy? Or was that totally made up and you had a town/null read on him?
--

Rach's post really rubs me the wrong way. The game started less than 48 hours ago during the work week. Nobody is lurking at this point, and it feels disingenuous to be calling people out demanding more content, when it's not that people are lurking but that others are in hyper-post mode. (A fact Rach herself noted earlier when she said all the posts were making it so that she didn't know if she was coming or going). Voting DO because she wants more content seems like an easy placeholder vote to make without committing to what is going on in the game.

I also don't like her vote on DO based on the given reasoning of DO not commenting on Bo. Not sure what she would expect to him to state and why the lack of stating it makes him scummy. DO did state that his vote on Sven was because of the case Bo presented.

--

More later!

p-edit @Sven

I have a job + full time university studies. Dont try to read everything, focus on interacting when you have time aviable and use the past post as data. Focus on a few people and interactions.

Yeah, I'll give that a go... otherwise I feel like I'm never going to dig out.

[Jennifer]

Jennifer, still here? Lets talk.

Just saw this. Heading out to meeting now, but I should be back online in a couple of hours. I'll ping you in thread once free and see if you are still around to talk.

[Jennifer]

Hey guys. I'm around if you want to chat.

I haven't paid much attention to Majiffy yet other than the initial Rach vote. The main thing I noticed while trying to catch up was lots of e-peening, but that's not alignment indicative. My understanding is that he has a reputation on this site of being a strong player, so unless there are strong scum signs, I'd be inclined to see if that reputation plays out here.

A Rach lynch would be a solid choice.

VOTE: Rach
^ L-2 (again)

[Jennifer]

Sheesh... it took TWO submits to get a word in edge-wise!

[Jennifer]

Okay. I just went through Majiffy's ISO.

My reads differ from his. For example, he didn't like Selkies for the same posts that made me like Selkies. And I disagree with him over the Varsoon wagon and current Rach wagon.

But, I like that he's given reads and is willing to engage on them (even though done in a scary, aggressive way).

[Jennifer]

Good morning, guys (or evening, I guess for you Europeans).

I can empathize with DO replacing out. The posting rate of some players in this game is higher than the entire posting rate of the large games. And to those who claim I'm not participating because I'm not posting at the same furious rate...that's ridiculous. I've been here every day, doing my best to keep up. Turn down the noise, and there may be room for other voices to be heard.

I don't like the notion this "town" voting bloc (and not just because I'm not a part of it). It seems like extreme buddying, and I don't like that people are willing to give each other a pass in exchange for not fearing being the day's lynch target.

I also haven't seen anything much from Rach that makes me think she leans town over scum.

p-edit Sighhhhhh... 20 more posts.

Welcome, DGB.

[Jennifer]

I don't know yet.. I lean town overall on you I think because you've been helpful at giving advice on how to deal with a fast moving game and seem to be leading the charge in getting people to post/helping form reads. But I'm a bit weary because you're the one that suggested the voting bloc, and I worry if I'm being blinded by you taking the lead.

[Jennifer]

They're actually incredibly effective.

How so? I can understand this later in the game once people have seen flips/associative tells/PR abilities used possibly that lets people feel confident as who is town. But this early on, seems like it's either formed by a scum trying to buddy townies, or if led by a townie, they run the risk of accidentally including a scum who hasn't slipped yet and the scum erks through until it's too late.

[Jennifer]

If town starts working together as a collective, scum has to focus on destroying the collective first, rather than focusing on PRs and supporting mislynches, because otherwise the bloc will widdle down the remaining players to a town autowin scenario. Which is why, in general, they're a really pro-town thing to get going.

But that still assumes that the bloc is actually all town. Otherwise, infiltrator scum could influence the bloc to get a mislynch and then pick up who they want at night.

[Jennifer]

Think of it like this, if I am alive at the end of the game you can start worrying, it makes it easier. Also, say that I am town, why cant I be town leader as town? It stems from an apetite for winning. But yes, I can probably take the lead role as scum aswell.

Very nicely put imo.

Do you understand why I am kinda iffy on you and that I need more from you?

I agree being town leader if town is good, and I don't feel like you would be a good lynch today. But, I'm still weary of a bloc. @Selkies, as to who in the bloc could be scum, I don't have a good feel yet. I find it hard to read you because you guys (both Selkies) talk to each other in thread a lot that it makes it confusing trying to figure out if it's real or scum trying to play both sides. I'd rather focus on Rach, who I think has been scummy and keep an eye on how the rest respond and develop more reads tomorrow.


@Sven I do get that I haven't posted as much content as everyone, sand you seem like you form reads more from live interaction, so want more. (this is the first game here where I've chatted in real time with people.. I'm used to a slower pace, where I can read the game during down time in the day and post at leisure)

[Jennifer]

I get you girl, this is just more awesome and rock n roll. There is only one thing you need to do, convince me that you are town, be open, say whats on your mind, clearing oneself is so extremly important.

You got it. And I do agree that forming town reads are just as important as forming scum reads. I think POE, especially end game, is great way to sniff out remaining scum.

Anyway, heading to the gym for now. Good chatting and will talk later!

[Jennifer]

We need Jennifer to post somehow. her 5 posts isnt something we can go on, either force her out or get her typing.

First of all, you can't force me out. I signed up to play

forum

mafia, and that's what I'm doing. I haven't been Mod prodded, and I've been here posting every day. If you want to policy lynch me rather than play mafia because I don't have the time or inclination to match your frenetic posting style throughout the day, knock yourself out. But unless I'm lynched or nightkilled I'm not going anywhere. So deal with it or replace out yourself. Vet me to get a town read on me, that's part of the game (as I need to vet all of you), but the number of votes on me isn't going to somehow clear my schedule so that I can spend all day just posting here.

On to the actual game....

I'm not sure what to make of Selkies' PGO claim. It does seem that the value of being PGO is being nightkilled. I'd think that PGO would want to be as townie as possible to lure the scum kill, so I'm not sure why Selkies would claim PGO during the day given that it reduces the usefulness of the town power and forces us to make a possible mislynch before LYLO. I know Selkies' response is that they feared there is a doc, but I'm just not sure why we'd assume there is a doc because it seems like PGO would be more useful without one. I also didn't have Selkies as my towniest town read yesterday (that actually went to Sven).

I could support voting Vansoon again, although I still think Rach is a good vote because I didn't see anything yesterday from the pressure on her that made me think town. I didn't read much substance there. When I have time, I want to go back through Ice's ISO and see if there is anything that would have made them the nightkill of choice.

[Jennifer]

@Selkies I don't see what you want me to answer here. DGB says I'm scum for stating what's going on in RL (RL has no bearing on alignment), for catching up without reads (I did post what was jumping out to me and I have posted reads/voted. It just gets lost in the noise), and for acting like scum do in other games (this is so vague I can't even respond other than to say, she's wrong).

I think the scum team is Rach, Arc, and Majiffy. Vansoon had been in my scum list possibility, but got replaced by Arc because I don't like the desire to hammer before I've even seen the vote count and weird backtracking from it, and Icebox was suspicious of her slot too. I don't see why Rach is getting a town read from people when there hasn't been anything to justify the switch, and the fact that she seems to be getting by with it makes me think it's because her partners are deflecting elsewhere. Majiffy has joined my scum list because I do agree with Arc that it's suspicious that he's still around today, as I'd think scum would want to nightkill the strongest players, and I don't like his push on Sven, who has been my top town read (@Sven, I think you asked why you over Selkies; Selkies slot conflict with themselves at times in the thread, and I have a really difficult time following hydras, especially when not speaking with a unified voice. You have been pushing for involvement, challenging things, and while you frustrate me, it does come across to me as town).

VOTE: Majiffy

[Jennifer]

Re the bolded - Varsoon has been in the game since the start. AA9 replaced Does Bo Know.

Also, Icebox thought Varsoon was town and said it would take a lot to change their mind about him (Remembrance, mostly IIRC).

I mean that Arc replaced Vansoon on my scum list, not in the game. I do have suspicions about Vansoon, but the other three seem more likely to me than him. (Also I derped until I looked at Newbies setup again, thinking we had to have 3-man scum team.)

Icebox did have a town read on Varsoon, but his scumdar alert was pinged on Bo (now Arc).

p-edit Just saw Sven imploded... :/

[Jennifer]

Jennifer are you going to offer any original thought or are you just going to IIOA your way through the game?

I *am* offering original thought... I just gave a list of *my* top scum reads and am stating that part of the reason why Arc is suspicious to me (on top of the weird willing to hammer before defense/claiming wants defense I already mentioned) is because Icebox found that slot suspicious.. It seems from what I've read that nightkill analysis isn't huge on this site, but there has to be SOME reason why Icebox was the target, and it would line up.. we can't know for sure, of course, but it's at least worth considering and tying that info together with what already seems suspicious.

[Jennifer]

Also while I've got your attention, cute vote on me. Got anything to back it up?

- You weren't the nightkill target and seem like you'd be a prime choice for it
- Rach voted you in the beginning & I can see a Rach/Majiffy team. Icebox also noticed that Rach perked up when you voted her, so it seems like some odd interaction.
- You're pushing my main town read and while obviously town can disagree and get things wrong, it seems off that you'd go after someone who seems super towny to me.

p-edit I didn't mention you in my last post because I was clarifying to Selkies that I didn't think Arc replaced Vansoon.

[Jennifer]

@All For those with a town read on Rach, can you please explain why. That's probably messing with my head most of all because I don't see it.

[Jennifer]

Welcome, Jake,

Once you've had a chance to look things over, would love to get your opinions on Majiffy, Rach, Arc, and Vansoon.

Do you not trust Majiffy's reads because he has bad reads as town or because you think he's scum?

[Jennifer]

VOTE: Rach

@Rach Why after you just said that you wanted to focus on Arc and I do you immediately state you'll hammer Varsoon? Your answers to this have been very inconsistent. I don't understand this "will of the town" answer, when the votes had just happened. Just because someone is at L-1 doesn't mean they'd be the lynch.
Also if you're worried about not trusting some players to not go hammer, how did your post that you would hammer address that? They could still come in and hammer and say it was the "will of the town." Also, "will of the town" answer does not line up to your later answer of saying you didn't want to repeat a loss from a prior game where you hammered without intent.. it still begs the question of why you'd hammer in the first place.

I also don't like your vote on me after Selkies calls you out on pushing me but not voting because it doesn't feel genuine, but rather seems like you're trying to recover from a misstep.

Also, your town-scum list bothers me because (1) you stated that you were willing to hammer Varsoon but you're waffling on him in your list; (2) provide specific reasons for your reads on everyone but for your biggest scum read you just say "most scummy"… no specifics…

Guys, let's lynch Rach today. She seems to slip by on 'that's just Rach' which is awful. I didn't like Varsoon's response to getting run up either, but I really don't like how Rach's actions don't follow her earlier expressed thoughts, and I don't want to give her a pass because that's just her… I really dislike the too scummy to be scum defense.

@Varsoon If you're town with us, you really need to take a deep breath, dig deep, and keep fighting. Because it doesn't help us win to stop caring. What made you choose to vote SvenJake over Majiffy or Rach? Are you willing to vote Rach (I imagine yes given you're a top lynch contender atm).

[Jennifer]

What? No... I didn't 'coach' Varsoon, I'm telling him what I want to see.

But if the options are Var or me, I'm going Var.

But, seriously, tomorrow START LOOKING AT RACH MARIE! SHE IS SCUM!

VOTE: Varsoon

[Jennifer]

Claim: Watcher. I watched Sven the first night and Selkies last night. I got no result either night.

Obviously in retrospect I shouldn't have hammered Varsoon. I was getting frustrated though at being considered scum for not posting at the same cadence, and I decided to go for it because as fast as you guys post, I was worried I'd be up on the chopping block and we'd definitely have a mislynch, and it helped that Varsoon was someone that I went back and forth on about whether he was scum. Sorry.

I think Arc has to be scum because I did not see anyone visit Selkies. Likely Rach or Majiffy in remaining slot, I want to reread Arc to see which one makes most sense.

[Jennifer]

^ Scum trying to bus!!!

She hasn't provided any response that would make her claimed action align.

VOTE: Arc

I chose Sven the first night because he was my strongest town read, so I thought he was the likely nightkill target. Similarly, I chose Selkies the second night because Selkies was town as well, Sven had claimed BP which means he'd survive a NK attempt, and I didn't think it was likely in a micro that there would be two roles that could avoid nightkills. (More proof that Arc's claim of bodyguard is fake). Of the two, PGO seemed a lot less likely, and I figured that scum might chance it and I wanted to be there when they did.

[Jennifer]

@Selkies

My preference would be to lynch Arc, who is confscum, and then see who is left tomorrow to piece it together.

But, looking through Bo/Arc's ISO iit's either Rach or Majiffy.

Feeling Rach/Majiffy lynch today.

If forced between those two, I would probably choose Rachel because my suspicions on Majiffy are mostly because he's alive and attacked my towniest read.

When Arc replaced in she attacked both Majiffy and Rach, which doesn't make it easier to discern. Rach has been pretty scummy and it seems like people only give her a town read because they don't expect her to not be scummy which is... terrible reasoning.

So I call Arc/Rach team.

[Jennifer]

Some of us have things to do outside of mafia. This may come as a surprise to you.

Seems like to play this particular mafia game no outside life is allowed. :/

[Jennifer]

so being Majiffy alive.. i am doubting my town read on him

I felt majiffy is town and i thought Mafia may target him in the night, I would do it, If i am the mafia and i don't understand why mafia targed the Icebox. Feels weird

My initial read on him as townie but it was falling down later in the afternoon, that's what i mentioned in my post earlier.

Which is leading me to Rach, Jennifer and Majiffy.

I wanted to lynch majiffy too

^^If that's not setting up for a Majiffy lynch, I don't even...

@Majiffy

Get your vote off me and on Arc. She's scum.

[Jennifer]

@Arc You question when you did something... I showed that you did... and rather than admit it you revert to calling me scum and posting cute gif? Fun to watch but wow AtE ...

And btw.. Just show me where and when I have attacked Majiffy in this game??

[Jennifer]

I watched Selkies again and again got "No response."

VOTE: Arc

Arc lied about her role, alright, but it wasn't because she's town doctor.

Before you lose us the game,

GO BACK AND REALLY READ

. Arc is scum, I've been called scummy essentially for not posting as Svenspeed (which isn't a scum tell), and you're letting her get away with it and slink away to a win...

[Jennifer]

GAH... you guys. VOTE ARC. Jakes, you're safe to do so. Given Arc's claimed actions directly contradict the info I got, the remaining scum is Arc (and is clearly between Arc and I as we are directly challenging each other). As I have already voted Arc, and Arc has already voted me, you're safe from scum hammering, unless this is an odd game and there are 3 scum, which would be very odd in a micro.

I GOT

NO RESULT

on Selkies, which means that NO ONE VISITED THEM. Which means that Arc is lying about being a doctor and must have decided to no kill to set up wifom for today. IF ARC WAS TOWN THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO NEED TO LIE TO TOWN AND SET UP A WIFOM PLAN.

If Selkies had died last night, I would have confirmation on who killed them and Arc would be claiming that I was lying about getting the result. THERE IS NO REASON FOR A TOWN ARC TO LIE.

PLEASE

for those who think I'm scum go back through and list the reasons why you found me scummy and compare that to Arc.

Also, Arc, I'm cool with your self-vote if you want to end it now.

[Jennifer]

Just vote Jen then I ll show you that I am not lying... huh.

Why not you first then?

[Jennifer]

Who wants to go first?

It doesn't matter, you can lynch me first if you want. But that will mean we'll need to wait 3 more days for the game to finish.

[Jennifer]

As NS is fond of saying "Girls, girls you are both pretty."

This made me laugh.

[Jennifer]

I agree too. I bet Arc is a PR... But clearly not the one she's claiming. Regardless, we've got this. Hammer one of us and if you're wrong we win tomorrow, assuming lol Arc can't kill two in one night (which she can't)

[Jennifer]

We'll see what Orc thinks, but I am leaning vote Jen because the last thing scum should have wanted was to skip a kill last night. 3-1 was the best endgame scenario they could wish for given town is knee deep in claimed/confirmed PRs. That argues for AA's claim, though I'm mindboggled that town has a full doctor and an innocent child. The scum PR must be a swiss army knife of some sort.

I agree optimal scum play would have been to kill last night. I can't think of why she wouldn't have killed, say Rach if not Selkies.

[Jennifer]

Good game, guys! And I think I can safely say now that I much prefer being town to scum... I feel bad lying and much prefer helping town figure out who is out to get us.

I don't mind sharing mafia qt, once Majiffy weighs in, I'm happy to post it if he doesn't.

This game was a challenge for me given the pace (I definitely did not expect a 87-page micro game), but definitely a learning experience! In retrospect, I should have killed Rach last night (not that it looks like it would have changed the outcome).

I hammered Varsoon because I didn't expect to live to the next day (I believed Selkies PGO claim). What a surprise that Arc protected them that night!

[Jennifer]

And ugh, all the times I asked Jen to interact with me and she failed to do so *shakes fist*

Sorry, Majiffy. I wanted to, but I just wasn't sure how. All my completed games have been as town, and I found myself paralyzed about attacking you (am I being too obvious/making good points to drive your lynch through yet not being townie enough to stay alive on my own) or giving reads about you (again worrying about being natural). Plus, waking up to 20 pages or so, it was hard to cut through the fluff to naturally address you more.

BUT, I will definitely try to improve for next time! Thanks for the advice (even if I failed on the execution)