Newbie 1365 - Vantasmagoria of Flower View (Game Over)

[Shawn]

yay
Um
so lynch dudes.

Commandodude.
talk

[Shawn]

##Vote: Sakura Hana
why would you need help from the IC? What do you think the IC is gonna do that would help you?

[Shawn]

VOTE: Sakura Hana

[Shawn]

whoops
sry for not having an avatar

Not good answer.

[Shawn]

##Vote: Sakura Hana
why would you need help from the IC? What do you think the IC is gonna do that would help you?

Because im new here, and there are a lot of things i don't know. also since this is RVS i guess

VOTE: Shawn

for not having an avatar

What do you not know? like why would the IC be able to help you?

[Shawn]

What do you not know? like why would the IC be able to help you?

Obviously some terminology

And that helps you play mafia how?
Why is it important enough to state in your first post?

[Shawn]

Does what i state on the first post have to be important?

I would think that whatever you write in your first post is reasonably important to you, yes.

So how many games have you played blah blah?

[Shawn]

None, also you havent replied to my question yet.

No it doesnt have to be important, yes I think that your post was important.

[Shawn]

yay
Um
so lynch dudes.

Commandodude.
talk

Also from your first post... is there something between you and commandodude?

his name seems cool

[Shawn]

hmmm...

Hey guys, what's up? I'm one of the two SE's in this game, meaning I have quite a bit of experience around this site and I am able to help out with w/e you guys need, though I am not obligated to do so this game. I will try to answer questions although those should go to our IC first

Shawn, what kind of answer were you expecting from Sakura?

A better one.

What do you think about sakura and the guy below him saying the same thing?

[Shawn]

well... Considering that I don't really have problems with her answer, what constitutes a good answer to you

and right now, I think nothing of them asking the IC for help. Learning how to play is what this game is about, one of them may be scum for trying to play the "this is my first game so help me please" card, but I highly doubt that both of them make up the team.

Why is the first post so important? What makes the first post you make different from any other post that will be made in the game?

A good answer would be answering how an IC would help her, I really dont know the answer and apparently I dont really think she does. Oh well.


The reason I think that first post is so important is because so far its the only post that anyone has posted out of their own volition.
Like yours.
You felt the need to post and you did. So therefore that makes it more valuable to analyse rather than you answering questions.


So you think that 1 of the 2 initial posters are scum? Or you dont think that they are BOTH scum?

[Shawn]

Well, sorry i didn't know that pointing out the fact that it was my first game was bad, but since first posts are important then this bothers me:

yay
Um
so lynch dudes.

Why so eager to lynch someone?

Because if we no lynch, town loses.
duh.

I was concerned that you mentioned IC's not that it was your first game.
But that discussion has run its course.
Read on the IC that has posted Sakura?

[Shawn]

Yeah whoops lol thought 2 ICs and 1 SE.

What do you think of the irish guy posting 2 posts and leaving?

[Shawn]

tl:dr - this entire commentary block is all about introducing myself as the IC, blathering about my duties, and offering a basic idea of some of the strategy of the RVS. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here) if not, feel free to skip.

Spoiler: IC Intro

===========================================================================================

Greetings,

I am Thor665 and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is first and foremost - I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on Mafiascum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I *highly* recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice;

1. Don't self vote. (there are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is)
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
3. It's a game - have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do then a town player).

Vote: Sakura Hana

There was no way that was a random vote.
Go actually vote a random dude.

[Shawn]

It's not a question of if 'we' are out of the RVS, the question is are 'you' out of the RVS.

lso we can then get into 'what is RVS for' natch.

Generally when people say 'I'm out of RVS' and then unvote and vote no one else...then they are not out of RVS because they're still in initial scumhunting mode and have no real scumreads. When you place a vote for real reasons you are generally out of the RVS. Also, you should be asking yourself if your RVS is 'of any help at all' but I'm starting to wax philosophic at this point and don't really feel like writing a treatise.

I'm out of the RVS now.

Edit:

@Shawn - You're right, I am not voting totally randomly, what a shock. I mean, clearly e're all supposed to just roll dice and vote like that and then sit and stare at each other shrugging our shoulders and nervously giggling like two kids attempting their first sexual experience in the back of an old Jetta.

I'm now content to lynch you too just for being silly.

Oh so RVS isnt actually RVS? Then why dont you call it something else?
also who is scum?

[Shawn]

UNVOTE:

So why did you say it was a random vote when it was a vote for scum?
And why is sakura scum?

[Shawn]

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do then a town player).

Then why did you post this if your vote wasnt a random vote?
I thought you said town has no reason to lie? I guess this makes you scum.
UNVOTE: SakuraUNVOTE:
VOTE: THhor665VOTE:
I unvoted sakura because I dont think she is scum at this point of time.

[Shawn]

Yeah I hate tags. bleh so hard.

[Shawn]

Shawn: I'm pretty sure he mentioned that just to teach us about the RVS

He said
'We are now starting the RVS phase'
Not.
'RVS is about .....'

Yeah loads of difference.

So who do you think is scum?

[Shawn]

Caught up.

VOTE: Shawn

atm shawn looks like scum trying to look super townie. Calling scum because a new player says they are new etc.?

Clearly not reading.

I called out Sakura's post because she put emphasis on using the IC.
Not being new.

[Shawn]

Caught up.

VOTE: Shawn

atm shawn looks like scum trying to look super townie. Calling scum because a new player says they are new etc.?

Clearly not reading.

I called out Sakura's post because she put emphasis on using the IC.
Not being new.

Yeah, because the usual reason for saying they might need help from an IC isn't because they are new? Not to wk Sakura, she could be scummy as a stagnant pond, but atm you look a bit scummier. So it's on you to look more convincingly town.

Its on to you to tell me why Im scum. Why is me attacking Sakura then scummy?

[Shawn]

Shawn, see my post 65.

Ime, scum often pounce on weak looking players: Sakura looked weak, you pounced.

So why didnt I pounce on theirishdude?
What is 'weak' about Sakura's first post?

[Shawn]

UNVOTE: Sakura
VOTE: Thor665
Guys quick hammer now.
This guy is really really useless, just asking the same questions, not willing to be open on his read on me or Sakura, and doesnt seem to have ANY other reads that he has shared.

Also he outright lied when he said he was in 'RVS', and he voted for Sakura. Then a few posts later, he said that his vote was for Sakura being scum without offering ANY explanation.

[Shawn]

The scum motivation is that he cant explain his reads properly or is scared to because he might be pressured on specific points. Its easier to defend general stuff rather than specific stuff.
Uselessness is a scumtell, because its difficult to be useful when you dont actually have to scumhunt.

Sycorax, is recklessness a townie or scummy trait? Why is wanting to lynch someone scummy?

[Shawn]

Really Thor? You want to lynch me because you cant read me rather than me being scum.
Right.

Quote your explaination for your reads then, Im totally stupid and not reading your posts.

Irish, what is scummy about my posting? Specifically?

Thor, what was the point of posting about RVS if we werent in RVS?

[Shawn]

Meh I wanna lynch Irish at this point. Voting a townie does jack shit. Lynching a townie is slightly worse but the fact that Irish doesnt want to take a hard stance against any player worries me because he can 180 and flip flop around his reads easily.

[Shawn]

@Shawn - I want to lynch Irish right now. I am willing to lynch you because I can't read you though, yes. Recognize the inability to read you is not 'totally null' it's 'he's playing in a way that is very awkward and untrustworthy town or is just scum' which makes it a much more reasonable lynch.

My reason for the vote on Sakura is here;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4893398

My read on you is presented here;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4893582

Also, I posted about RVS when we were in RVS...I wasn't aware I'd posted about it when we weren't. Link?

About the RVS issue. Maybe Sakura referenced it, but I dont think anyone outrightly said anything about random voting. So why did you post it?
Also why didnt you say that your vote wasnt a random vote?

Read on Me:

Heya Thor.

Greetings, Mollie told me to 'make it fun for you' or something like that.
I'm planning to just speed lynch you for lulz later.

Why do you think Shawn is scum trying to look town as opposed to hyper nervous new town trying to be town?
I can't get a clear read there, myself.

This is a read. This is not an explanation. I asked for an explanation. Give it.

Explanation for read on Sakura

UNVOTE:

Use your tags, young grasshopper.

So why did you say it was a random vote when it was a vote for scum?
And why is sakura scum?

1. I didn't say it was a random vote - why do you think I did?
2. Because she had the most votes on her, why did you unvote her as soon as I sounded serious but not as soon as I voted her?

I assume that your vote was a joke vote then? So is Sakura scum? And why is sakura scum, if in fact she is?

[Shawn]

Irish, what is scummy about my posting? Specifically?

Your sudden appearance and change of vote seem suspicious. Also, it does not make sense to lynch someone because they are useless.

Why is my appearance scummy?
Why is the change of vote scum motivated? I assume you are talking about sakura to thor? Why is that scummy?
I said other things, but generally if an experienced player is useless, they may be scum. Its a point but not the main point. Do you want to address anything else I said about thor?

[Shawn]

About the RVS issue. Maybe Sakura referenced it, but I dont think anyone outrightly said anything about random voting. So why did you post it?
Also why didnt you say that your vote wasnt a random vote?

1. Oh...I dunno, maybe it was part of a copy/paste intro that I literally do in every single one of my IC games. But I'm sure I actually typed it up in this game only because I was scum in order to...do...a...thing...that...wait, even if I did do it only in this game, how is that scummy in any way at all?

Its scummy because its activity without a point. setup speculation, easy to do as any alignment but more likely to do as scum because you cant find actual content.

This is a read. This is not an explanation. I asked for an explanation. Give it.

Explain how I don't have a clear read on you?
Seriously? Like what do you want, me to post random quotes from you and then explain how I can see them as coming from both silly town or scum? I feel like I have better things to do than that. Functionally I even sort of already did this when speaking about you, in addressing some of the 'trying to look town' think that Corax has issues about you with. You never asked Corax to explain spit, and she's even voting you.

Why do you hold us to a different standard from each other?

Because you are a better player(supposedly) and different standerds should apply. In your experience, are the players that are decently experienced more likely to be useless than new players?

I assume that your vote was a joke vote then? So is Sakura scum? And why is sakura scum, if in fact she is?

No, my vote was not a joke. I guess I need to mention that also now.
I don't know if she is. I somewhat lean 'no' but it's not a strong read.
If she is scum then she's scummy for all her vote sheeping and active attempts to avoid the spotlight. The problem is that could also be newb town who doesn't know how to scumhunt and is just sheeping players she thinks know what they're doing. But I'm fascinated you are calling out IrishPope for lack of clear reads when Sakura is right next to him.

This is the laziest explanation of a read I have ever seen. Wishywashy, and no conclusion. Cool.

So to sum up your thoughts,
You wanna lynch me because you cant read me.
You dont really wanna lynch Sakura now I guess, but your vote is on her. Interesting.

Anyone you actually think could flip scum?

I didnt call out Sakura because I have a town read on her. NEXT QUESTION.

[Shawn]

Its scummy because its activity without a point. setup speculation, easy to do as any alignment but more likely to do as scum because you cant find actual content.

Which might make any sense at all if my first post didn't contain a serious vote. So what was my plan, ramble on and provide no content and then...y'know, provide content?
[/quote]
It really really irritates me that it took so long for you to explain your 'serious' vote on Sakura. Do you not agree with the fact that you didnt explain your 'vote' until I asked you about it? Why did you take so long?

Because you are a better player(supposedly) and different standerds should apply. In your experience, are the players that are decently experienced more likely to be useless than new players?

I think players who play uselessly are more likely to be useless and that it meaningless to experience level. There are many newer players I find exceedinly content heavy and many experienced players I consider feebs.

I said more likely, of course there are both. Nice politically correct answer that is textbook. Cool bro.
But I guess you agree with me then.

So you do agree you are applying your reads on an alternate sliding scale of 'Thor needs to be better than everyone else to look even almost as good as them' yes? Interesting that you think I'm so experienced and good - yet at the same time think all I'm doing is fluff posting and dodging (and also that you're th eonly one noticing). Ockham's Razor a bit, yeah?

I am applying my reads with the feeling I get from your posting. So far it does not look like you want to find scum, but are intent on arguing with me, your 'unreadable' read.(no such thing bro).

This is the laziest explanation of a read I have ever seen. Wishywashy, and no conclusion. Cool.

Actually there was a quite clear conclusion. So...whut? Last I checked 'leaning town' was a conclusion.

Whoops my apologies. Still really wishywashy and easy to retract.

So to sum up your thoughts,
You wanna lynch me because you cant read me.
You dont really wanna lynch Sakura now I guess, but your vote is on her. Interesting.

Anyone you actually think could flip scum?

I haven't been voting Sakura for quite some time now and...it's not like I'm being subtle about who I do want to lynch.
Why aren't you reading the game?

I also mustve misssed the part where you said
'I wanna lynch xxx because xxx is scum
1. .....'
Please point it out for me

I didnt call out Sakura because I have a town read on her. NEXT QUESTION.

Why do you have a town read of her?
Also, if a town read can do the thing - why do you find it questionable when someone else does it - clearly town do it, yeah?

[/quote]
Its not 'ONLY SCUM DO THIS THING'.
Townies do everything scum do. There is no objective thing that ONLY scum do, so context is really important.
Sakura looks interested in finding scum. You dont. You scum.

[Shawn]

People here are pressuring me to pressure other people. Seems legit.
Waiting for others is the most sensible thing to do. What is not sensible is trying to lynch without hard proof. If you really were town, you wouldn't be causing confusion and mass hysteria. Let's stop fighting each other and use logic to win this, guys.

What proof do you want?
Like you cant find scum if no one posts, and what you are suggesting is that no one posts because it causes confusion and mass hysteria?
What do you suggest we do to find scum irish?

[Shawn]

Speed lynching on D1 of a two week game day is suspicious unless enough people are convinced a player is definitely scum. I don't trust Thor's reads well enough to go along with speed lynching any player this early.

This. We have no leads, we can't go lynching willy nilly. We literally wait to see who slips up, but don't force it upon them, because town newbies can look like scum accidentally. I also have to say good night to all. Sleep, rest, the time will come for Town to be victorious.

No leads. This aint a detective game, this is mafia.
Scum isnt gonna slip up in 1 post, its combined with all their posts. Town may look like scum in one post, but town in the rest. Context is everything

Thor, is Irish scum or not? Why?

[Shawn]

Thor, is Irish scum or not? Why?

Why?

[Shawn]

Oh, wait, a vote doesn't exist for Shawn unless I make a case. Here's the case;

You're trying hard to look pro-town, when it is painfully apparent you aren't reding the game.
I don't believe town would be asking so many questions while clearly not even reading the posts of the player they are questioning.
Ergo - you are faking all of this scumhunting, and are scum.

Oh god this post is horrible.
Why is all of this scummy? Why is me 'not reading your posts' scummy? How does that go to Im faking the scumhunting? You havent explained ANY OF IT.
IC huh. Interesting.
UNVOTE: Thor
(this means I think you are town)
VOTE: commandodude(random lurker vote cause whatever)

[Shawn]

Shawn, it doesnt help the town the fact that you aren't even reading and are just pushing for a Lynch, which could easily lead to Mislynch.
I agree with Thor. You're being way too obvious at this point, and if you flip town then im gonna flip a table.
UNVOTE: IrishPope
VOTE: Shawn

P-Edit: And now you shift your post, somewhere else?

Ok now im 100% sure you're scum!

What is scummy about my play?
Can you explain it?

[Shawn]

you keep flip flopping your vote, and you even admitted that your last vote was random to someone just because they hadn't posted, are you really just randomly attacking lurkers?, you try to say you're scumhunting, but your play is being detrimental to the town because:
1. You aren't reading and you ask questions that you can easily find answers to in ISO.
2. Your motivations for attacks are pretty baseless, yet you claim that we are the ones not being baseless, explanations to why your attacks dont have much base and reasonings have been provided multiple times.
3. You just want to lynch some random person and quickly, which increases the odds of a MisLynch.

1. How is that scummy?
2. Examples?
3. No I want commandodude to post, I dont have a read im confident in other than Irish dude but im not gonna lynch him until he explains/says more shit. Newbies are hard :/

[Shawn]

Shawny: Can't get a clear read since he's new, his ISO #0 bothers me, but it could've been a joke for his first post. Then on ISO #1 decides to attack me due to my introduction post (gauging reactions perhaps?) but looks weird considering his ISO #10 hints to him considering first posts being important, and asking specifically commando from the get go, cool name? im not buying it. on his #11 he seems eager to lynch people because "If we no lynch town loses", yet nothing says that because a lynch takes a week or a day doesnt necessarily end in NL, then decides to attack Thor due to him not stating reasons, yet the reason was stated (which i failed to read but found it after), and asks us to quickly hammer him on his ISO #22, then suddenly flops on ISO #25, but doesnt change his vote?.

Im always asking people to explain their reads. All the explanation provided by thor has been supershitty. Im sad .
Im pretty sure I explained my reads throughly, or there are no questions relating to my reads on dudes.

1. It's anti-town
2. Did you even read my post with my reads, i give plenty of examples there.
3. It's not even 72 hours which is when you usually request a prod, he's very likely away during the weekend, it'd be odd if past tomorrow he still hasn't posted yet, heck we dont even know if he has confirmed even.

2. Meh, none of that is scummy. Why is changing my mind scummy? Do you think that town or scum is more likely to change their mind?
3. So im currently wasting my vote. Does that mean im scummy? How does that mean im scummy?

[Shawn]

Shawn, it doesnt help the town the fact that you aren't even reading and are just pushing for a Lynch, which could easily lead to Mislynch.
I agree with Thor. You're being way too obvious at this point, and if you flip town then im gonna flip a table.
UNVOTE: IrishPope
VOTE: Shawn

P-Edit: And now you shift your post, somewhere else?

Ok now im 100% sure you're scum!

You're at L-2 now, guess it's time you give some explanations, if you have some.

Don't do this, You're one of my town reads, and a strong one at that, and I want you to stay there

MM: Leaning town, the main argument against him was defending Neko, but i don't really see how Neko being absent until right now is any indication of scumness when the game had only been going for like half a real life day?

I am also a female :/

He looks like scum. It does NOT follow that I am obligated to vote for him. I am not directing attention away from me, I am just trying to weed out scum in an attempt to, you know, WIN the game.

I don't see how not voting for your main suspect would help in weeding out scum.
You'd get more information by pressuring people with your vote as a vote is a real threat to someone's life.

How am I coming off as "to friendly"?

I go to bed and wake up to activity, I really love this batch

Shawn: Pope and Sakura have a possibility of being scum for throwing out the "I need help"/Noob card so early on in the game and I am suspicious of both however, the likelyhood of both of them being scum is very low. At this point in time, I do not have reliable scum-reads.

Syncorax... You know Mollie? Hmm... I might keep a close eye on you then

Why did you think Sakura is scum Thor? I'm getting a vague town-feel from her.

Irish is a tempting person to vote, though I will hold mine until everyone has at least posted something. He can easily be super nervous townie, or super nervous scum based on what he has posted so far

Too quote a few. Well you will suspect someone and then say maybe you're wrong. You're not going to get enemies with that

I also already stated that I was referring to Syncorax and not you so...

How do you know Syncorax is a she then :O

So... I'm coming off as to friendly is based off two of my 13 posts on this page, and also because, in both of those posts I stated how I viewed certain people when asked, and it wasn't as strong as people wanted them to be?

90, I stated that I was suspicious of both Pope and Sakura, but that both of them weren't likely to make the team, since then, Sakura had progressively looked more pro-town so my suspicions on her (which weren't very strong to begin with) disappated, while Pope is still a very probable target.

I followed up on my suspicions of Pope with 127. I stated that he was a tempting vote because I found him suspicious but not as suspicious as Thor found him to be.

Maybe both of you could, because I don't see how this is different from my normal play TBQH

You're defending everybody who so much as posts sideways.

If you mean everyone, you mean Syn, Sakura, and arguably you, then yeah I'm defending everyone in this game

Syn and Sakura I am arguably defending because they are my top town reads, but I'm hardly doing it to the point where they can't do it themselves and the only thing I argued in your respect is the fact that Uselessness isn't a scum-tell. I was also sharing my knowledge that I had about you and how uncharacteristic it is for you to be scared. I don't think that could count as being defensive

also, this "you're so pro-town that you're scummy" non-sense is, IMO weak.

Who is scum MM?

[Shawn]

I will share them once I find them. Right now, everyone is either null-town, or Null, or isn't a strong enough scum-read for me to be comfortable enough to share them.

Mod: V/LA Until Wednesday

Right.
You also dont seem intent on finding that out. Just defending dudes left and right.
Read on Thor?

[Shawn]

Shawn, im actually quite interested in knowing your reads atm, and probably explanations on your behavior so far, which may or may not change my current stance on you. You seem to be interested in knowing everyone's standing on things yet, you dont provide much of your own.

Irish

scum

Thor
Sakura
Sycorax

Town

Everyone else null.

What do you want me to explain?

[Shawn]

VOTE: TheIrishPope
This is L-1.
Start talking about who you wanna lynch.
Your list post was way utterly useless, everyone is null to town.

[Shawn]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO
NOOOOOOOOOOOO
NOOOOOOOOOOOO

There is almost 0% that commandodude is scum. Why would scum say all those things instead of just faking it? Town doesnt care what they look like and this looks really like commandodude cant give a fuck about how he looks.

[Shawn]

Ok, i got it, Shawn and commandodude are scum, refer to shawn's very first post in the thread, and now he's defending him.

Why so dumb? First post in the thread, chose random dude. Dont use that as an association case EVER.
Do you disagree with what I said? What about it is wrong?

[Shawn]

I just find it really funny, like he comes in, bullshits then goes OH SHIT I GOTTA GO BYEE!!!

Town dude.
Lets lynch MM? I dont like nice people.
Discuss MM Sakura.

[Shawn]

Trying to distract attention from you, eh? My god, have we revealed the scum? On D1?

Sycorax, I did I will repeat them again for good measure:

That was the word I'm looking for. My apologies for confusing your gender.

Nekoko could be setting herself up to look scummy and get lynched. The other Mafia would hop on the BW, blending in and exterminating Town one by one. Just an idea of mine.

Everyone's job is to find and lynch scum. You asserting this does not relief you of suspicion. Above is an explanation of my view of you again, so maybe check that. If not: it is not what you seek, it's about how you seek it. You are trying to revolt this whole thing onto itself. That's just mean. When new information surfaces, I will vote. I just don't want to risk lynching a power role.

My suspicions have risen again: Why do you defend Neko?

In my defense, I posted this before Commandodude appeared and Shawn defended his friends oh so joyfully, so I really have no suspicion on you

Or i dont want to mislynch people cause they are stupid not scum. There is a difference you know .

[Shawn]

It is most likely you are defending him as your scum partner.
How would you know of his supposed stupidity?
I am voting to lynch Shawn D2 if i survive Night.

Stop stop stop making association cases without flips. Stop.

Where are all the ICs

[Shawn]

Only one IC bro. Why should an IC help you? You gave yourself away as scum. Logos is out.
How would an IC help you? By telling everyone "Guys, I have played more games, I know more"? Ethos is out.
With what would an IC help you? By saying "Guys, he's compassionate, don't vote for him"? Pathos is out.
The only thing left is mythos. Good luck with that.

According to my count, Commandodude is at L-1. Should we quickhammer or not? I'm not sure how to advance with this.
MontyWhittaker, I JUST VOTED.

Because this is bad play(lynching commando/calling me scum cause I defended him) and you guys dont believe me and will probably believe more experienced players right?

[Shawn]

Ethos is credibility. So no.
Explain why it is bad play to lynch someone who gave himself away as scummy.
And explain why it is bad play to lynch YOU, who defended him with such haste.

Because thats the worse reason ever.
'DUDE HARD DEFENDED THE MOST OBVIOUS SCUM EVER. LETS LYNCH HIM' No. Nooooooo.

I have never seen scum go, 'Im not reading the thread LALALALA'

[Shawn]

I never said he was on L-1 in any case, i dont really have any thoughts, these 2 are just playing the most obvious anti-town play i have ever seen, they are very likely scum. Right now my reads are like this, from most town, to least.

Syco. (Most likely Town)
MM (Town)
Thor (Leaning Town)
Neko (Null)
Irish (Null)
Monty (Leaning Scum)
Shawn (Scum)
Commando Dude (Obvious Scum)

did i miss someone?

Anti-town doesnt = scum.

[Shawn]

Oh my god you're right, it's totally not scum, he's obviously helping scum hunt and hides in the darkness! that's totally pro-town! I mean, pro-towns are obviously supposed to not discuss and not contribute to the thread, while they watch the scum who knows who the scum and town is attack each other! I would have never guessed!

Oh man maybe we should hold hands and sing songs together
What a great idea !!

Yeah no.

[Shawn]

k im absolutely serious now.
THE IRISH DUDE is trying to bandwagon on to a weak townie, COMMANDODUDE.

And we should lynch him because he is basically echoing town sentiment in ALL OF HIS POSTS.
Guys/Girls.

Eradicate scum.
Kill IRISH DUDE with fire.

[Shawn]

And why do you trust him so much with such a few posts that he has made?

Because scum doesnt post like that? Think, if you were in your first game as scum, what would you post like?

[Shawn]

If you could talk in full sentences, that'd be great. My name is not Irish Dude. I am also absolutely serious.
I am using logos to lynch the most apparent scum, Commandodude. I see nothing wrong in that.
So, if I am acting town, I should be lynched? According to you, I express this sentiment in all of my posts. Please, go ahead and quote them all. I'll wait.
My motive is the same. I want to eradicate scum.
Could you elaborate further on your trust in Commandodude and your apparent knowledge of him being "a weak townie"? You can't know how scum posts like. Not every scum posts alike. Every scum has its own mind.

What is logos? And nothing commandodude has said is scummy, its just bad play, but it isnt scummy.
IRISH DUDE, you are acting like scum, I explained that earlier

[Shawn]

You guys need to differentiate bad play and scum play. Totally different. IMO, commandodude and mine are bad play(yes im town :O so surprising)

[Shawn]

OH GOD FINALLY SOMEONE THAT ISNT STUPID.

MM I asked for your read on thor because I wanted to know your read on Thor. I wanted to know your read on thor because I might be tunneling badly, and also cause you are not a newbie. The reason why that is important is cause as an IC, all the newbies are not suspicious of him AT ALL. Which makes me sad .

What the Sakura and nekoko, what have I dont that is scummy and not that is helpful for you to further your reads and advance the game? Have I disrupted our progress? Have i not tried to make sure we dont mislynch off NOTHING?. Just because you dont like my play, you want to kill me. Thats not the way it works. Read my posts again, are they scummy and not infuriating?

[Shawn]

I am mostly with Nekoko right now, re Shawn and commandodude's apparent relationship, though it's suspiciously obvious.

Ms. Marangal, I had my vote on Irish for a long while. Monty has posted a couple omg i don't know what to do comments, which certainly could be deceptive scum, but what's your reason for focussing on him?

3 lines, what makes me scummy.
Also hard defending someone is totally what you would do with your scumbuddy right? RIGHT?

[Shawn]

Shawn, see where I said 'suspiciously obvious'? It's possible you two are friends online or irl.

Hard defending a scum buddy? Seen it done.

Yeah its possible.

3 lines why Im scum pl0x

[Shawn]

How about three lines why you are not? From you? I've already said why you've looked scummy or anti town in previous posts.

You really want me to say why Im not scummy? No innocent until proven guilty law thing? Is it that hard to consolidate your thoughts on me?
Scummy =/= antitown as I have said already.

3 lines why im scummy. Now.

[Shawn]

How about three lines why you are not? From you? I've already said why you've looked scummy or anti town in previous posts.

You really want me to say why Im not scummy? No innocent until proven guilty law thing? Is it that hard to consolidate your thoughts on me?
Scummy =/= antitown as I have said already.

3 lines why im scummy. Now.

Or you could easily be a scum pulling out a desperation move. I've already pointed out several posts ago why i found you scummy. This was before commandodude came into the picture, and you still refuse to read what i wrote?

Am i asking you or sycorax?

I already responded to what you wrote and it comes down to the fact that you dont think my play is very 'townie' or that my play is 'antitown', which is a matter of opinion. Ok there are 2 scum right? So me and commandodude are scum? Or you think someone else is scum?

[Shawn]

There is almost 0% that commandodude is scum. Why would scum say all those things instead of just faking it? Town doesnt care what they look like and this looks really like commandodude cant give a fuck about how he looks.

Where do you draw this? why town doesn't care how they look like? why are you WIFOMing when someone's about to get lynched?

This just add onto my suspicions

It isnt WIFOM, its playstyle as different alignments
Town doesnt care what they look like cause their objective is lynching scum.
Scum cares because their objective is to not get lynched.

So with that in mind, which attitude do you think commandodude is trending towards?

[Shawn]

Obv. town cares about not looking scum to their townmates as well, why? Because otherwise they'll get lynched, but most importantly town scumhunts and answers/asks questions, since discussion helps the town, If anything scum prefers to hide to not draw attention to them, specially when they don't know how to blend in or are confused as to how to pass by without being noticed. However you are right, commandodude could've been easily been mistaken as a newbie mistake, what got me was YOUR reaction towards the votes on him, not himself.

The thing is, the MAIN objective is to lynch scum, not getting mislynched. The mislynching thing is only an issue when you start getting votes. Which commando didnt.

My reaction was NOO DONT QUICK HAMMER. yeah no dont do that. Also he is totally town.

[Shawn]

Also he is totally town.

Again, where are you drawing this conclusion from someone that refuses discussion, with his super short ammount of post i'd think he'd be a null read at best.

Cause Im totally scum and I know all of your alignments.
Or because I am confident in that reads? Also it is possible to change your mind . Shocking I know.

[Shawn]

Irish, I have 1 strong town read, COMMANDO.
Actually lets get monty in the thread
UNVOTE: Irish
FOR NOW.
VOTE: Monty

[Shawn]

That doesnt work Sakura, you cant say quickhammerer's are scum.

Actually moving my vote around is townie, scum dont want to move cause PRESSURE like this.
Town dont care, I dont care.

Irish, do you care more about your image or more about lynching mafia?
Irish is the epitome of caring about his image, look at his recent posts. He wants to 'stay neutral', he is worried that if I flip town, he would be 'implicated'. Yeah town dont care about shit like that.
Fuck everyone and everything else, I wanna lynch this dude.
UNVOTE: Monty
VOTE: Irish

[Shawn]

Why did you just post that? Do you want to someone hammer me? Throw suspicion on everyone? Post the most fucking useless thing in the thread this game? There is no analysis, just sniping people on 1 point and refusing to engage them, tunneling me so hard you cant even see anything otherwise. For an IC(experienced), this is really really bad play. The reason why this is scummy and not a townie being an idiot, is cause he is an IC, means 5 finished games, means relative experience which also means you shouldnt be posting bullshit like this AND YOU KNOW IT. Thanks for making it easy to flip my read.

[Shawn]

Thor

That is a blatant lie presuming you had read his post.
Other players are even attacking him over *how* he called some players scummy.
Meaning, not only did you skim his post, you then skipped all of theirs as well.

Quotes now.

[Shawn]

Shawn: For someone on their first game you seem to claim a lot of knowledge on good and bad play, have you had any prior mafia experience outside of mafiascum?

Also what is tunneling?

Yeah I play on tlmafia.

Tunneling is when you can only see someone as scum no matter what they do, and actually, everything someone does can be interpreted as scum play. Like he LOOKS TOO GOOD, he is faking the pressure, blah blah, and this is exactly what thor is doing.

[Shawn]

Sakura, Shawn is town. Stop this TvT now.

Thor, the "you're so pro-town that your scum" was me referring to your case on Shawn, not me. I also did not defend Shawn in 209, I never defended Shawn actually. I stated my dislike for his wagon, but I never defended him

that being said,

@ Shawn: you

can

have a point against Thor but at this point in time, I'm not seeing it. The fact that you admit that you may be tunneling and thus want the opinion of others comforts me greatly. At present though, I think your case on Thor isn't that great, though I don't think Thor's case on you is all that great either. I'm not getting the Thor-town read I have gotten from Thor in other games I had with him so maybe sell me on why Thor is scum?

@ Sakura: Commando is irritatingly Anti-town, I can agree with you there but Can town not be doing the same thing he has been doing? furthermore, I think it's great that you think that town

should

care about how they think but I disagree. My reasons for my town read on Commando are pretty similar to Shawn's reasons. I'm inclined to believe that he's trolling town at this point

@Nekoko: My read on Monty is PoE for the most part. He doesn't have enough posts for me to get a good feel for him, though his posts feel contrived and crowd Followy

My read on Thor is that that post was really fucking awful. Like thats one of the worst posts Ive ever seen, because he was hopping around everywhere, sniping at individual posts, not looking at the big picture, not having any conclusions, and nothing about the state of the game so far with Irish and me. Just LYNCH SHAWN CAUSE HE DEFENDED COMMANDO, I DONT KNOW WHY THATS SCUMMY BUT LYNCH HIM ANYWAY!!?!?!
I dont wanna lynch him today though, I would like to solidify my read first.

[Shawn]

Yes.
Now vote the one doing the same thing and not admitting to it. At least Commandodude admitted they weren't reading gak and appears to care little about the game.
Guess which player look slike scum and which like a player who just isn't reading?

My apologies, I was wrong.

You know what? Irish is so dumb he is town.
UNVOTE: Irish
Ok next scummy player.
Thor. I have been flipflopping on my read on him throughout this game. But now I think that he is firmly scum. Not reading the thread isnt scummy in its own right, but apparently the the most objective scumtell to Thor ever. He never explains why not reading the thread promotes a scum objective. Also he says that I dont care about the lynch and he provides absolutely no proof beyond that. These are his only 2 points. And all he has been doing is, SHAWN SO SCUM LYNCH THIS GUY NOW!!!!!!!!!. He has been tunneling me and is still tunneling me, does he still think anyone else is scum? I have no idea. And thats not a good thing.

[Shawn]

VOTE: Thor665
Any way I can see his past games other than just looking through all his posts?

[Shawn]

What in the actual fuck do you want me to do? WIFOM isnt useless. Read the stuff I said. If it makes sense to you, good. If it doesnt, then well Im sorry and I would want to clarify.
Sakura, if you would be so kind, can you put to me all the questions that I failed to answer?
Also there is no reason at all to lynch a 'bad' townie, they are still townies and count towards the number that scum needs to eliminate to win. The point of this lynch is to lynch SCUM. Thats all. So since you said that I could be a bad townie, do you want to see whether Im scum or a bad townie? Why are you not giving thought to the other side of the equation?

[Shawn]

To clarify about 'bad' play,
I think that my play is fucking awesome, pressuring dudes, making scum scared. Does me saying that that help anyone? No. So seeing it from your perspective, I am a 'bad' townie. Now as a townie,
1. I wanna lynch scum. Thats who im trying to find is scum.
2. I dont wanna get mislynched.
3. I dont wanna mislynch town.
Right so do you think that my play has followed this? Or is totally different?

[Shawn]

meh ignore last post, it doesnt make sense.

Thor is scum because he is pushing a bad case on me. This is the main reason. Also his last 2 superfluous posts that didnt serve any purpose and were all over the place. Looks like scum wanting to contribute and commenting on a lot of unimportant things. Who do you think cares about this lynch? Thor? I dont think so because from the beginning, he has only pressured me and he has only talked about me, and has not talked in any serious way about any other candidate in my opinion. Look at what he did just now, came back to much activity, posted 2 or a bit more useless posts and fucked off again, didnt take into account what I said as a whole, but preferred to attack a small part of my play, which is what I said about Irish. Its easy to say that 'im not reading the thread' but difficult to say how that advances a scum agenda and what I have been doing to do that. And he didnt.

Pedit: Sakura, I realized that Irish has stuck to this 'image' thing so long, under a lot of pressure. I played against a dude before who disagreed with my playstyle and he was town. Also some of the stuff he types makes me want to . So yeah town. He is useless but thats not why we should lynch him or anyone.
Also, there is a TON of time, why dont you try and find someone that you genuinely think that would flip scum rather than the 'town but lowest town'

[Shawn]

So your vote flip-flopping is part of your grand master plan lol

But you did say in your opinion that you have a bad play in Post #302
Was it just to appease the people?

yes yes it was.
Vote flipflopping is a towntell. Right MM/thor/other dudes?

[Shawn]

Thor is scum because he is pushing a bad case on me

This is a really, really bad reason to think someone is scum. I believe I have said as much

yup.
Then again you dont have scum reads. Oh well I guess you dont actually want to lynch anyone today then. What a shame
You wanna actually comment on the meat of the paragraph?

Yes Nekoko, by bad case I mean scum motivated case, sorry if that was unclear.

[Shawn]

The reason why I think that Irish is town is because I think that he believes in what he is saying, and that he thinks that it is a good way to play mafia, which means that he isnt trying to bullshit us or avoid responsibility. Thats the way he plays. Its dumb but its not scummy unless you have a other agenda and I dont think that Irish has one.

[Shawn]

MM, is any of my reasoning/analysis of thors play so far wrong? Do you think that it makes him scum/town/null?

[Shawn]

well... considering the fact that your case on him is mostly his play-style, I would say that everything you have on him is pretty off Just as I believe that everything He has on you is pretty off.

Right.
So Irish is scum cause he cares more about appearance and Monty is scum cause he is blendy.
Is that right?

[Shawn]

Shit guys, I had the weirdest dream.
Anywho, good discussion.
I am changing my vote due to new information, and me agreeing on the soundness of your logic. I see nothing wrong in that. Could you please elaborate on that?
I'll be here for 45 minutes from this post on, and then come back at around 2:30 UTC-4:30

No idea what you are talking about, lol...

[Shawn]

Im flipping town Thor, think about that for a second. Humor me and please think that Im mod confirmed town. Who is scum then?
100% confidence in a flip IMO is either
1. A bad player
2. Scum

Which one are you?
Your push on MM was, 'lol stop defending so many dudes'.

[Shawn]

Yay activity \o/

Thor, what can I say about me 'lying' other than the fact that I have absolutely no reason to do that as scum, dont you think I wouldve attacked his read on nekoko?
Like the stuff Im doing makes no sense from a scum perspective.
I am playing carelessly, but does that make me scum? Can you see my play as careless town?

[Shawn]

Fascinating Irish, I WIFOM therefore im scum. Think about it. Is it scummy? OR ARE YOU BEING BRAINWASHED BY THOR!!!!
If you are sheeping Thor, just say so.

[Shawn]

So you caught me lying = you are town? That makes no sense
What is your question exactly? Why I lied?

Also

Because "careless town" would be scared to admit they gakked up, whereas scum lying totally wouldn't try to hide that fact.

I cant WIFOM but you can? Man that sucks

pedit: Reasons that are different from Thor's Irish?

[Shawn]

Perspective.
Damn guys why would I lie intentionally in such a fucking obvious way to not much benefit because I didnt continue pushing Irish much after that.

SO MUCH WIFOM

[Shawn]

Yeah you're drawing so much WIFOM to defend yourself, which is... a scum tactic.
Town has no reason to lie, while Scum has every single reason to lie.

What am I lying about?

[Shawn]

Sakura, my darling, I understand your frustration. I can't vote for you because Shawn will give us more information. Would you want me to make a case on Shawn? Seems unnecessary at the moment. The point of the game is in fact killing the other side, but how can we accomplish that, you say? Why, by voting and being sophisticated about it. Shawn is doing the exact opposite, still casting an OMGUS vote at this stage, and changing his votes ans suspicions in quick succession. What other arguments do you need?

Shawn, holy fuck, you just admitted to lying.

succinct place where I lied.

[Shawn]

Post 367 You're basically misrepping and turning people against Thor by saying he said things he didn't say.

You weren't reading his posts, and you called him out, he evidenced why you weren't reading his posts, and you refused the claims, yet...
Bah you know, why don't you re-read the thread again, maybe you will find your answers in there, why do i have to point stuff out for you when you're clearly not reading if you have to ask.

Thats not lying, thats simplifying. Too much? Maybe, but its not lying.
Keep trying.

[Shawn]

What reason could you have to make up a reason for thor to lynch when he had already pointed out why you were scummy to him?

I didnt make up a reason.
What in the world are you saying?
You clearly agreed with my reasons to lynch thor, why did you suddenly change your mind? Does my being scum(in your eyes) affect the reasoning I gave earlier? It shouldnt.

[Shawn]

You know, it's funny that you find him wanting to lynch you for your outburst on Commando, because you know, he voted you before commando even appeared? makes total sense to me.

Oh so other reasons dont happen. Right. I read his post before that post which you posted as 'lynch shawn cause he is defending lynchbait'. Is that wrong?

[Shawn]

And you're clearly avoiding the question, i already pointed the reason why i'm voting you, but you clearly aren't reading.

I'm done with you, my vote stays there until you can convince me otherwise.

P-Edit: Well then point me to said post?

You are voting for me cause im lying, Yes/No?
And you cant point out where Im lying, Yes/No?
And you 180ed on me cause im lying, Yes/No?

Which post? Thor's post before that?

[Shawn]

Didnt I say I read that wrong?

[Shawn]

1. Y
2. N
3. N

You mean Post 357? Can you tell me where did he say he was voting you because of your defense on comando? at most he said to vote you for prentending to read but not reading rather than someone who at least admitted they weren't reading.

Lying is intentional right? That is the pretext you are operating under. Can you tell me why you think that post was intentional lying?

pedit: cause you sheeped my stuff on thor.

[Shawn]

1. Y
2. N
3. N

You mean Post 357? Can you tell me where did he say he was voting you because of your defense on comando? at most he said to vote you for prentending to read but not reading rather than someone who at least admitted they weren't reading.

Lying is intentional right? That is the pretext you are operating under. Can you tell me why you think that post was intentional lying?

pedit: cause you sheeped my stuff on thor.

[Shawn]

Yes.
Now vote the one doing the same thing and not admitting to it. At least Commandodude admitted they weren't reading gak and appears to care little about the game.
Guess which player look slike scum and which like a player who just isn't reading?

My apologies, I was wrong.

-snip-

Ok Sakura, this is not WIFOM, its optimal play.
In a 9 player mini, where there are 2 scum, scum dont bus out of nowhere especially day 1, its too difficult to go like 7-1 day 2.
So I assumed that by voting for my read that I pushed all game, you thought that I was town, cause If thor is scum, im not.

Ok ok relax, unvote me so scum doesnt hammer, and calm down. thanks
Ill try to not do stuff again(i didnt know I did it in the first place)

[Shawn]

Makes me sad that you are not reading Sakura .
What I just posted was not opinions, its how to play the game. You cannot think that we are both scum because it makes no sense. So if you think that both of us are scum, 1 read is wrong. And you should probably try and see which one is.

[Shawn]

Makes me sad that you are not reading Sakura .
What I just posted was not opinions, its how to play the game. You cannot think that we are both scum because it makes no sense. So if you think that both of us are scum, 1 read is wrong. And you should probably try and see which one is.

When did i say you were scum together?, i merely say you both (as well as 2 others) are on my scum radar, and i am certainly aware that if you flip scum, then thor is town.

Yes but to think that one is scum, you have to think of some reasons why the other is town, yes? So that counts as 180ing, yes?
What do you feel about lurky blendy monty?

[Shawn]

Ops, should have used the quote thing in topic review rather than posting, oh well.

What do you feel about lurky blendy monty?

I already gave my opinion on him way back in Post 413, if you cared to read instead of making stuff up, you'd know by now, he hasn't posted since then, so it makes sense that my stance on him hasn't changed.

Lurking isnt a feeling. Can you expand?
Also whatever about what you think of thor.

[Shawn]

By whatever, I mean I dont care anymore.

post 413

Yeah, the thing bothering me about Thor is that he wants to lynch something ASAP, if he's scum, he's denying town more discussion which is a good move, i don't see how a town would want to lynch someone fast unless they're 100% sure of their alignment, which is kinda hard to be sure of at this point unless you're scum.

Monty's randomly lurking does bother me, specially since he never expressed a V/LA which could seem that he's scum watching town fight against each other and enjoying the ride without doing much.

FoS: Thor and Monty

[Shawn]

You guys know what? I have been looking at Monty recently and guess what I found? Scum.
Let me tell you why.

1. He is the lurkiest dude in this game and lurking is a scumtell. Whats more is that with his low number of posts, 4, he hasnt advanced any read but posted the blendiest stuff imaginable. He asks questions he never follows up upon, all his posts are strictly in line with town sentiment.

2.

Sorry, I feel so overwhelmed right now. I haven't posted because I either haven't had anything to add or it's already been posted by someone. For what it's worth, with so many votes in this game already, I feel like The Irish Pope has "suspicions" that he is leading people to vote toward, yet feels no conviction to vote for them himself. That is enough to warrant my vote:
VOTE: TheIrishPope

Lets look at this post. It seems like monty is overwhelmed with the game. However apparently he has read enough to determine that by Irish Pope's posts, that Irish is trying to mislead town. This is quite a deep conclusion I think, and not one I expect from someone who is 'overwhelmed'. Also this conclusion is wrong, and if he actually read the thread enough to determine such a deep conclusion, he should know that Irish has no pull with anyone and obviously cant 'lead people to vote'.

3.

Indeed you do. Quite astute of you. Shawn, I am troubled by your consistent movement only because it doesn't seem motivated by a town-based interest. You are flighty, much as though you were attempting to spread as much confusion as possible. Just so we are clear, what are your feelings about people at this point in the game, and how have they changed as the game has progressed?

This post comes at a time where I am under heavy pressure, and is a summary of the some of the stuff that has been leveled at me. He then asks the most general question I have ever seen and I dont remember responding to it and he never follows it up with anything. He is trying to blend in with the town by being suspicious of me as it was the hot topic, possibly thinking of a way to get his vote on to me.

Monty is scum in this town because he has offered no new insights, has tried to get on townie bandwagons, me and Irish and is lurking the fuck out of this game cause he has been under NO PRESSURE. Lets start with this.
UNVOTE: Thor
VOTE: MontyWhittaker

[Shawn]

On Another note, what do we learn by Lynching Monty? i think we learn a lot more by Lynching Shawn, and if there is a cop (i'm just assuming there is) we can have them investigate Monty during the night, if there's no cop then, guess we can start interrogating him on D2.

IMO: Lynching Monty if Town... we learn nothing, he hasn't interacted with anyone. If scum... we learn nothing either. Either way no one's assured Town and no one's assured scum.
Lynching Shawny if Scum, Thor is certain to be Town (i highly doubt he would pull off a Bus on D1) and MM has higher chance of being scum. If Town, then Thor has a high chance of being scum and MM has a high chance of being Town.

Am i missing something here?

We lynch scum.

This kind of mindset is wrong. We shouldnt play to lynch the dude that gives the most 'info' which might not even be accurate depending on circumstances. Like for example, I get lynched, and I flip town. That doesnt definitely Thor scum, nor does it make MM scum either.
Why not just depend on your ability to read the person as town/scum?

What do you think about my case?

[Shawn]

Because it's impossible to be 100% certain someone's scum on D1 unless, of course, you are scum yourself.
And if you are attacking innactives why aren't you attacking syco since she hasn't posted in like forever? In fact she's been away for longer than Monty.
Why does Monty give you more scum vibes than Comandodude who has offered even less insight and has stated that doesn't even read the thread?

Because commandodude does not care how he looks, hasnt been blendy, he has put himself in the spotlight with what he did. However look at monty, he has done nothing to stand out, offered no help to town but he has been acting like a good little useless townie. Notice that no one else is quite as useless as him. Even commando
I firmly believe that he is scum, not 100%, but I think he is the right lynch for today.

[Shawn]

Even commando has tried to find scum, in a slightly less than optimal way, still effort.

Im not attacking inactives, Im attacking monty.

[Shawn]

So why do you think Monty is a better lynch than you other than your gut feeling?
Why should i be trusting you when you've twisted mine and Thor's words before and lying about it?

Now that i think about it, you mentioned before that you and commandodude had a bad play, why do you claim having a bad play yourself?

I JUST POSTED A FUCKING CASE WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING GIRL?
Its not about trust. Read my case, does it make sense? yes = lynch monty. No = why?

[Shawn]

If you are asking about Why thor instead of Monty its because as MM said, a bad case isnt the strongest reason ever that someone is scum and I am more confident in what I saw in Monty;s filter than thor's.

[Shawn]

It makes sense, I agree, but that doesn't make him a better lynch than you, so i'm asking you?

cause Im town. What I just said that we should never lynch for info, even more so that we dont have a deadline looming. Why lynch town when you can lynch scum? Also think about it. If your scumread posts a case you agree with then is your scumread still scummy?

[Shawn]

I accuse you of making up bullshit about Irish to justify your vote on him. It looks like a decent read, but its false because Irish has no pull with the thread at all.

I didnt respond to the question. It was a stupid question because it was so general. It looked like you were asking questions for the sake of it but didnt want to engage me directly on a certain point that you found weird or scummy.

[Shawn]

Town claims are null.
Dont be so fucking defeatist, it is possible to lynch scum. And as I said earlier, the associations with me hold not much water at all so you dont actually get much info from my lynch.

There was 1 misrep about the commando thing. Thats the only one that you guys keep repeating. What can I say about that other than it was not intentional?

Everything else in your case is not alignment indicative

[Shawn]

I can see more reason for a scum to claim town than for a town to claim town, just saying.

just saying ive seen everyone regardless of alignment claim town. Its not alignment indicative, believe me.

[Shawn]

Claiming Town while being Town:
Advantages: None, We will already know you're one by your playstyle anyways.
Disadvantages: Scum already knows who's town and who's scum, it gives scum a lesser pool to look for PRs.

Claiming Town while being Scum:
Advantages: Makes them appear pro-town to the Town, just because they are saying so, and Town doesn't have a reason to lie.
Disadvantages: None, Scum knows you're scum anyways.

There is no disadvantages to claiming Vanilla town.

For me personally, I 'claim' town because when I talk about my own alignment, I have to say something right? So yeah.
I treat town claims as null so I dont see any advantages to either side.

[Shawn]

I was asking you in an attempt to gauge how you were feeling at the time, as your consistent accusations were yielding no clues as to your motive. I would still appreciate an answer to that question...

Sakura, there were two reasons. The first is that I am still trying to get engaged in this game. I have trouble responding if I don't have something very specific in my mind to warrant a response. The second is that there was no need at that point to keep a vote on TheIrishPope. While he has by no means completely validated his innocence, neither has he done enough to continue warranting my suspicions of him as scum.

PEdit: Shawn, you say there are no disadvantages to claiming Vanilla Town. However, that does nothing to refute what Sakura said. Is there a reason for you making that claim in light of Sakura's statement, or do you simply have to find something to disagree with in everything people say?

Ask a more specific question please monty.

Another scumtell for me is that scum are passive, which monty is being right now. Town is active because they want to find scum, scum is passive because they dont want to get lynched. Monty is being way passive.

I was giving my opinion on town claims, should I not do that?

[Shawn]

Monty, maybe he'll be more willing to reply if you state an "Intent to Hammer"? You said the only reason you arent voting him is to avoid quickhammering him until you're more certain, is this a soft claim to intent to hammer?

Unvote me so that monty has to answer the accusations leveled at him Thanks
You can just revote later if need be.

[Shawn]

I don't know i see Monty passively scumhunting, everyone has their playstyle, and PRs also want to stay under the radar of scum you know. I still think your opinion on Town claims is BS, but that's a different opinion than yours, for me people claiming town so often specially when under pressure seems at an attempt at lying to avoid getting lynch, and guess what did you not only aknowledge to do earlier, but was proved that even after acknowledging it you kept doing?

That I shouldnt town claim? Or are you talking about something else?

You need your eyes checked. Monty JUST SAID he doesnt feel like posting until he has 'something very specific' in his mind. Guess what the question he asked me when town sentiment was against me?

Just so we are clear, what are your feelings about people at this point in the game, and how have they changed as the game has progressed?

Extremely unspecific and general.
To me, thats the definition of passivity. And I think that scum play passively.
Monty goes far beyond staying off the radar, he goes off the map. He is not posting little because he is a PR. No way.

[Shawn]

Im gonna sleep now,
Anyone who hammers before I get back is scum.

[Shawn]

I claimed vanilla town ages ago. LOL.

Thanks MM for outing yourself as scum, this game so ez.
Why is MM scum? She didnt comment on the Monty 'case' other than it was Information rather than analysis and throws it away because of that, without quoting anything. She then says that Monty has produced 'content' when he has no original thought so far this game. Even early, she FoS Monty but now monty seems townier than like 1/2 the thread(slight exaggeration but thats the feeling I get from that post).

Back to Monty. After my case, he delurked. Basically. And he only delurked in the face of pressure, clearly he doesnt care about finding scum but defending himself. Then he says he cant ask a specific question like 'Can you explain further your switch on read for Irish' or something like 'Do you still think Thor is scum?' But noooo he only asks, 'explain your initial reads on EVERYONE AND HOW THEY CHANGED'. Yeah Im not gonna answer that because you have no objective with that post. It seems like you want me to throw up some content and then attack small parts. Not actually try and find out what my alignment is.

[Shawn]

I think that all of you should stop putting bad ideas in the thread. tsk. Policy lynching a Vanilla townie is the absoultely worse thing you can do. Thats what you are proposing right? That you dont really think I will flip scum but because of certain interactions that are invalid cause im town, you wanna lynch me? Comment on Monty and why your vote is not on him, GOOO

[Shawn]

If you're really hunting scum, then can you make a case on your scumspects Shawn? And for now
UNVOTE: Shawn
I'll leave my vote off you.

I just dididididdididididid. Monty. I JUST DID. Like 12 hours or so ago. Im so sad sakura .

Well, to answer your question, Shawn, the reason my vote is not on Monty is that my goal is to play to support my win condition. No matter what, a self-vote will not help in accomplishing that.

TIP, what do you mean, "do the ends justify the means"? What ends do you specifically object to?

I was totally asking you to selfvote. totally. But instead of engaging with me and trying to find out my alignment, again you are sniping 1 part of my post and ignoring the rest. Good show mate, good show.

[Shawn]

I just dididididdididididid. Monty. I JUST DID. Like 12 hours or so ago. Im so sad sakura .

I meant sakura, brain fart.

MM, you said I was null in your earlier post, Im town again? Why thank you.
Also thank you for pointing out the 'content' in monty's posts. Oh wait you just quoted all of them. Whoops.
In post 526, he says a whole lotta nothing and unvotes Irish cause he finds his posts 'interesting'. Great content here MM.

Post 543, again defending himself, acting injured, not offering any opinions. Great content.

Post 590.
Town read on Irish not explained why he switched beyond 'interesting posts'.
Also says he is looking at Thor for having 'interesting' posts. I guess this means a different kind of interesting even though he uses the same word and same phrasing.
And summary of his interpretation of nekoko's filter which is 'too town to be town'. Right. And this is good content.

[Shawn]

Well i meant aside from Monty, because i think your case on him is kind of wonky imo, since all you had on him was his activity. Unless you mean that Monty is your only scumspect atm?

You didnt read the case. You didnt read the fucking case. That was 1 point. Not the main thing.
MM is rising higher and higher. What do you think about her weird switch in weirds and the 'content' that monty has produced?

[Shawn]

What I meant about policy lynching a vanilla townie.

What that means and what I took it to mean is that regardless of anything else, policy lynching someone who claimed vanilla townie. this is bad because PR would claim Vanilla townie if they claimed when not at L-1 and they still might claim that. Scum will claim VT, VT will claim VT. So what do you hope to achieve?

MM you are bad or scum. Do I need to explain why?
\o/


Monty, it is more than that.
Yes you are blendy but thats one reason why you are scum. Nothing should be held in a bubble, its all about context. I expanded on that read and I expect you to do so too. If you really want to find scum.
Explain your switch on Irish pl0x.
Also what makes me scum?

Pedit: I responded to the relevant parts, the rest are not alignment indicative Im sad to say Sakura. Good luck next time.
The part where I said
'lying = me scummy' Thats the part where I 'admitted' to lying right? This is where I didnt. You see in the eyes of the thread, I was lying. Right? So in order to defend myself, I have to defend myself from what you are saying which is I lied right? So I didnt admit that I lied, and I didnt intentionally misread Thor's post.
Sakura, I have no idea which questions I didnt answer. HELP ME OUT HERE. Thanks for your continued corporation.
Also you didnt read the monty case and shouldnt comment on it then. Just read it. PLEASE. You want to lynch scum right?

[Shawn]

Another thing.
Sakura you can make your own conclusions right? So why dont you read the cases I presented without presupposing that I am 'lying' and see what you find.

[Shawn]

I dont want to lynch Thor today, Monty is better.
Sakura, you are tunneled. Nothing I say you will believe therefore you are tunneled on me. This is bad. Very bad. Stop doing it.

1. If lurking is a scumtell then why arent you on the other lurkers as well?
2. So where do you draw this as a scumtell? because he's acutally... you know, scumhunting?
3. So suspecting on the likely scum is a scumtell, so since im suspecting you as well, am i giving you a scumtell as well?, What does a single vote have anything to do with applying pressure if no one's jumping on your Monty BW to begin with? And how is he trying to blend in with the town when he hasn't even been posting at all until that point?

1. Because no one else lurked as much as Monty and delurked when pressure was on him.
2. This is a scumtell because he made a false conclusion, 'Irish was leading town the wrong way', when if he actually read the thread enough to place a vote, he shouldve know n that Irish has no pull with town.
3. The reason why Monty's stuff is scummy because he jumped on the 2 forming bandwagons, Irish and Me, without actually wanting to find out our alignments. Scum love to jump on scummy looking town bandwagons when they start forming but they dont want to be the first vote or start one. Monty is the prime candidate for this. He has been trying to blend because all of his posts up to my case have been echoing town opinion and not offering anything new to town.

Monty the reason why your blendyness is different is because Ive shown how you are blendy, you havent shown how nekoko is blendy. Go do it.
Explain your switch in read on Irish, what did he post that was 'interesting'? That made him town? Me being scum = him town? Show me where you get that.
Your specific question is 'what are my townreads'. That is the all the effort you could put in? Disgraceful.
My townreads are
Irish
Sakura
Commando
Nekoko
Sycorax
Thor is null
You and MM are scum.
YAY LIST POST.

[Shawn]

Hmm

Unvote

VOTE: Shawn

Back to L-1 again Shawn.

Yay I really like your reasoning on what made you vote me.
Also Monty is going to come in here and hammer me after this. I guarantee it.

[Shawn]

Give the reason for you switch on Irish.

Why you voted commando, then decided to call him obvtown

Why you called Monty out for not posting much when Nekoko didn't post much either

and how/why you moved Sakura from scum to town

YOU CALLED ME TOWN FOR ALL THIS WTF DUDE/LADY.
Did you read the case? Did you know that the case on Monty is about his actions in his few posts, not that he has few posts? Or are you too dumb to see that?

I moved Sakura from scum to town because she is obvi town and clearly cares about trying to lynch scum and she is actually playing the game right now. The reason why she was scum was because I didnt like her playstyle(same with Irish) and initially took it to be scummy when it wasnt.

GG I Win Thanks for playing.

[Shawn]

I moved Thor from scum to null because I have 2 people that are scummier than him and since 9 player game = 2 scum, he cant be. Pending flips though.

[Shawn]

I called out Monty for being lurky in conjunction with my case. I didnt think nekoko was scum, what the fuck was the point?

I want to lynch scum. You defending monty with all the wrong reasoning scummy. YES/NO?

I thought you had a reason for doing what you did, turned that assumption into me defending you, though given the fact that the majority of my town reads are more fluid then I would like them to be has caused me to take a step back and actually read what has happened.

Ok so I was town. I am scum because Thor is convincing about 2 days ago. Right. And you realised this when I made the best case in the thread. Right. Sounds like a bad reason to switch.
Also what do you mean by 'take a step back and actually read'. You mean you have been coasting along with your vote on Irish(i think) and not reading the thread? or something else?

[Shawn]

I want to lynch scum. You defending monty with all the wrong reasoning scummy. YES/NO?

No

and what I mean when I say, take a step back and read is I am taking a step back and do a more detailed reading of what has been going on, and start making connections. I don't do intensive read through unless I need to. I have been reading, but it was more of me looking for things that initially spark my interest and things that I can get into.

So you admit that your reasoning is wrong. Cool story. That makes you scum. Nice.

Why did you read change on me today rather than when Thor initially said I was scum?

[Shawn]

No, I was saying that, even if my reasoning is wrong (which I don't think it is) Defending him with it isn't scummy... Don't twist my words

and I change it now rather then when he stated it Initially because I can be fairly stubborn and I didn't think you were scum when he initially stated it.

Why did you changed it. I asked WHY, I know you changed it. What made you do it?.

I didnt say defending him is scummy. Im saying that your defense of him was scummy and I pointed that out which you refuse to adres.

[Shawn]

Uhh...

I didn't refuse anything. I stated that my defense of him wasn't scummy. You asked if me defending Monty with "wrong reasoning" is scummy and I said that it wasn't. You asked Yes or No, I replied with No.

I changed my points now, rather than then Because I took a closer look at your posts and noticed details that I had missed before.

I showed you why your defense was wrong and you didnt care. I call that refusing to address.

Where are the details? Also what strikes you about post 627?

[Shawn]

No you didn't

and your appeal to Sakura.

You're reads look manufactured.

You're reason on Monty is... Decent I suppose, though that's stuff I have seen town do a shit load of times as well.

My appeal to Sakura is bad? good? scummy? excellent?
Come on here, more info.

How in the world do my reads look manufactured? Makes no sense unless you back it up.

About monty, so that read is good then, but the rest are bad. Right.
I dont understand how you see that I am scum and You dont seem to be able to articulate it either. Maybe another reread is neccessary.

[Shawn]

It was a bad appeal obviously since I didn't like that post

and your reads look manufactured. put together, mechanical, not genuine it really isn't something that can be explained. You're reads were probably manufactured all game, tactical reads to suit your benefits.

Monty is the only good thing you have in that post, yes. But I'm not sure if I agree with it.

lulz.
So you cant explain your scumread on me. Or the change other than 'rereading'.

Can we lynch Monty first then you please?

[Shawn]

It was a bad appeal obviously since I didn't like that post

and your reads look manufactured. put together, mechanical, not genuine it really isn't something that can be explained. You're reads were probably manufactured all game, tactical reads to suit your benefits.

Monty is the only good thing you have in that post, yes. But I'm not sure if I agree with it.

To expand on the manufactured reads thing. Its your not you're. you're is 'you are'.

So which read do you feel is manufactured? You said that all my reads were 'probably manufactured' so you must have 1 or 2 specific ones. Which ones?

[Shawn]

I called the monty hammer btw.
Scum going all in and trying to shut me up.

Difference for Neko, she gave good reasoning. You didnt. Game over.

[Shawn]

Well guess your fate is sealed, i was planning on giving you at least one more day tho, any last words?

I hope that you learn something from this, I really really do
GL for the rest of the game .

[Shawn]

Also please lynch Monty tmr.
PLEASE.
And MM if he flips scum.

[Shawn]

Any reason for wanting a Monty lynch?

Cause he is scum like I underlined earlier.
I just find it funny that you asked me this 3 times

[Shawn]

Because i don't see any scum motivation behind his latest posts?

Not all posts look scummy, its when looking over the whole thing. Im sure I have posts that dont look scummy to you, but I still look like scum to you.
Ima try and convince you about Monty though, town can still win.
What do you think is townie about his posts recently?

[Shawn]

Thor, how does it feel to be incredibly wrong?

[Shawn]

I KNEW IT.
I FUCKING CALLED IT.

All the internet points please.

[Shawn]

Um.

Thor or MM I feel.

Like no one else is pushing anything. Possibly sycorax.

Lynch Monty tomorrow, sheep me

[Shawn]

Well, i did read ML happen all the time on D1 specially on newbie games, dang i need to learn to read people better >_<

Again attitude

So depressing

[Shawn]

Also look at how quick monty is to disbelieve himself and his read. And look at the surety with which he placed his lynch. 'no reason to think you are town'. This guy is scum boyos.

[Shawn]

Also look at how quick monty is to disbelieve himself and his read. And look at the surety with which he placed his lynch. 'no reason to think you are town'. This guy is scum boyos.

If you were scum, you wouldn't have the need to claim your possible targets for a NK even after reaching lynch votes, that's what he's saying.

Yeah. still look at his confidence and suddenly he is really unconfident after i get lynched.

[Shawn]

If we consider the people not voting him to be likely scum, then syco and comando should be our next targets, considering the mass ammount of people wanting Shawn dead i wouldn't be surprised if scum blended in. I specifically said i wanted to give Shawn at least one more day Monty, any reason why you hammered before then?

Why are you not sheeping me? I dont get it. Now that I flipped town . Or am going to flip town. Also scum were definitely on my wagon.

I suggest everyone rereads day 1 and my ISO, it would be useful in determining reads. Please. I beg you. I wanna win the game too.

[Shawn]

Ok reads list:

Commandodude: Town because he put himself in the spotlight so much, his posts were too stupid to be scum. Scum think through their posts, Commando didnt.

MontyWhittaker: Scum because in my filter there are many reasons
Sakura Hana: Town because she seems intent on finding scum and has tried her hardest to lynch scum day 1.
Shawn: Town
sycorax*: Null: Hasnt posted in a while, do not lynch before MM and Monty and Thor though. Im thinking town because I liked some of her posts but Im not very sure
TheIrishPope: Town because too dumb to be scum. He kept up his idea of how he wants to play the game and I think that he really thinks that that is a good way to play town.(it isnt), Again only lynch after those 3.
Ms Marangal [SE]: Scum. Bad defense of Monty and refused to engage me, her supposed town read on why we thought differently. Also 180ed from earlier where she said that we should look into Monty and Irish. Then she cannot explain why she switches her vote on me, her strongest townread throughout the game. Also she defended me earlier against strong accusations and when I was under no pressure, somehow switched reads on me. Lynch if Monty flips scum and even if he doesnt.
Nekoko [SE]: Null, she wants to scumhunt I feel.
Thor665 [IC]: Bad case on me, and his recent inactivity. His most recent post felt like he was trying to pile more shit on me rather than actually asking me anything. Lynch after MM and Monty

[Shawn]

No, no one looks bad off such a drawn out townie lynch except MM and she tried her hardest to not look bad. Scum dont care whether they are on a townie lynch, it does not make them look bad.

[Shawn]

well you have 3 scumspects, which means at least one of them is wrong.

Which is why there is a lynch order. Follow that, and you will win. Thanks for playing.

[Shawn]

Also if you're a ML like it seems, then that means at D3 we will be at LyLo if ML happens on D2, don't think we can afford to many risks at this point.

So you lynch down that list. Its not risky. Monty is confirmed scum with that hammer. MM close behind.

[Shawn]

MM didnt vote you until i had unvoted, do you think she would have hammered you at that point if i hadn't unvoted?

Nope, i dont think MM wouldve hammered. Way too suspicious.

[Shawn]

Man my day 1 reads were right.
Why did I switch off them