Open 493 - Jungle Republic. (Game Over - Werewolf Victory)

[Bulbazak]

/confirmed

1. Are you Town? Give three sentences to explain your reasoning.
2. Who would you like to be Mafia with in this game?

1. Nope. I'm a monkey. Ook.
2. Maestro and Eddie Fenix

On a serious note, glad to see Fuzzy again. He's really cool and easy to read. If he's Mafia, he'll slip within 3 pages.

[Bulbazak]

Zabriel being means and forgetting me...

Vote Syryana

He's Zab's favorite, and therefore must die.

[Bulbazak]

For the record, 1337 is why Fuzzy will be caught in 3 pages if scum.

[Bulbazak]

For the record, 1337 is why Fuzzy will be caught in 3 pages if scum.

You do realize I just won a game as scum, when my partner was lynched early game, right?

I'm not as bad as scum as you think I am.

Well I hope you've improved since then. It was your first scum game, iirc.

[Bulbazak]

His scum play in 1337 was dreadful. If he hasn't improved as scum since then, there's something wrong.

[Bulbazak]

Mac makes a point. Why would you hope a scum game has improved unless you were scum with him yourself?

I like a challenge. If scum are not challenging me, the game's not fun. Plus, we should always be about self-improvement. I've been ragging on Fuzzy about his first scum game for awhile now, but I always hoped he would improve as a player. I'd much rather play with good players than bad ones, as bad ones suck the fun out of everything.

[Bulbazak]

I don't know, Bo. I wasn't really liking the type of questions Mac was asking. What Fuzzy and I were talking about was not really game related. It was just typical RVS BS. I believe I'm seeing what everyone else is about Icebox. Rem tried too hard on the RQS. It feels forced.

[Bulbazak]

I think it's the second answer that pinged his scumdar. It's like Rem's #1.

I also want to know what Klick means by "answer the question properly". I actually wasn't taking them seriously.

P-Edit: Self-knowledge invalidates meta.

[Bulbazak]

My point is that self-knowledge invalidates meta for precisely that reason and turns it into WIFOM. Sorry, you're going to have to do something else to prove that you're town.

[Bulbazak]

I'd advise that the scum team that has a NK kills icebox if they aren't on that team. It's to their advantage to kill off the other scum team. Obviously, we all know that an opposing scum team is a bigger threat to scum than town is. It's been discussed all over the site but just throwing it out there for any newer players who might be scum. Benefits both you and the town which is why I throw out that little pointer.

I don't like this. Telling the werewolf team to off another player, distances himself from the kill by stating it is widely discussed on the site (Appeal to Majority), and then claims he's doing it for teaching purposes.

Thene, why RVS vote on someone who is already a popular wagon? Are you pretending to have posted without reading anything and you hadn't noticed the wagon?

There was a wagon?

Yes, it was at L-3 and is now at L-4.

Unvote

I'll vote again after I decide which one of 4 directions I should pursue.

[Bulbazak]

But it's a nice dose of WIFOM, which might be able to get the heat off of her.

[Bulbazak]

Eh, I'm not going after Fuzzy. I misread him in True Love, and I'd rather get a better grip on how he plays before throwing down a scum read.

Bo, I'm not sure why you have a town read on Mac. His posts read like scum trying to blow random talk into an illusionary case and hoping enough people bought it. This post is especially bad:

So... do these guys look like scum partners or what?

He quotes the conversation and phrases his question in a way that it will make the entire exchange look scummy. Yet, he never goes any further with it. And worse yet, he has to ask the town's approval ("These guys look pretty scummy. What do you think?"). He's done nothing scumhunting-wise sense then. I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing it.

Vote Mac

[Bulbazak]

Not yet. He hasn't said or done anything that's distinctly pinged my scumdar, and I keep remembering how we mislynched him in True Love mafia where he was acting similar. This is my fourth game with him, and I still haven't seen enough of him to read him right off the bat. And I'm certainly not going to base my vote off of him only having one person on his RQS scum team. Heck, even I almost forgot that the scum team is composed of 3 members in this game. He's a complete null to me, which is understandable as we've only been playing for a day and just got out of RVS.

P-edit: I've riffed Fuzzy in every game we've been in since 1337. Not to mention that the game had just started, we were still in RVS, and I hadn't seen anything even remotely scummy.

[Bulbazak]

Heck, even I almost forgot that

the scum team

is composed of 3 members in this game.

"the" scum team?

Yes, "the". Scum=Mafia. I'm just used to it that way. I guess we can call werewolves scum too, but it's just a matter of semantics. I'll probably be using the term in the broadest sense during the game anyway. It's just in this case, I meant it in terms of the Mafia faction, which should be apparent given the context.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, if you're using the word scum in the broadest sense, why call the scumteam a team of 3 and not 5? Town should be thinking of scum in terms of anti-town factions, which given two teams of 3 and 2 respectively means five anti-town slots. Your reference to the scum as a single team of three is highly suspect.

I'm using "scum" in the broadest sense when I'm actually scumhunting, as I don't care what faction I'm hitting. However, in the context of the conversation, I meant "scum" as in Mafia. I disagreed in the werewolf tell of only naming one name in the second question of Klick's RQS, which asked who you would like to be Mafia with in the game. In that sense, we were only talking about one faction. I was saying that I found the tell null, because I almost forgot that there were 3 members in the scum, or Mafia, team myself. It really makes sense when you look at how it's used in context.

And how the fuck is me asking the town what they think about the discussion bad?

Except you didn't ask what they thought of the discussion, you asked, "Do these guys look like scum partners or what?", which is seeking town's approval. Town doesn't need to seek anybody's approval. They will simply do what they feel needs to be done. Scum, however, would ask that sort of question for 2 reasons: 1.) They want to see if they have the backing for such a mislynch, and 2.) They want to see if they have the town's trust or not. That's what made me take notice. I could care less for your silly little case, because that's what it is. However, any question, statement, or post that is made to pander to the town I will immediately point out, as it is inherently scummy.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote Thenewearth

You would think that calling someone obv. town would be based on something more substantial than gut. If you check out Bo's reads, which you criticized, you'll notice he has a very definite reason for Klick. You were one of the 3 scum reads I wanted to see more of, and what I'm seeing is not genuine.

[Bulbazak]

Notes before I leave for the day:

Autti's #176 has robots in it.

Still not wild about Mac's play, but at least he's starting to participate.

Due to #188, should TNE flip scum, Icebox is likely his partner.

[Bulbazak]

176 has "robots"? What does that even mean?

Wtf do you mean, has robots in it?

Pedit: Damnit Bo.

And robots? What the fuck? Lol.

Guys quit making me preview edit. That's three times for this post lol.

Click on the link in Autti's post. You'll see what I mean.

Also seeing Icebox as more likely to be scum. As you can see above, I inadvertently created a reaction test, and they didn't bite. Instead, they went into full-on defense mode when implied that they might be scum. I'm glad I got that read right.

Got the Egg read wrong, though. Liking him as town now. His posts are very thought out and read townish.

[Bulbazak]

Also can't see Icebox's response being a full-on defense, and how that paints him as scummy.

I said that if TNE flips town, that Icebox was

likely

his partner. Icebox addressed only this part of the post (Which I saw suspicious, since everyone, even if they commented on anything else, commented on the robot comment. That's what I meant with inadvertent reaction test.). It felt like scum who felt like they had been caught and had to turn it around on their attacker. Sort of like how after someone says, "I think X is scum.", the other person replies, "No I'm not! You are!". It's a knee-jerk reaction scumtell, and Icebox committed it.

Bulb, why did you have Egg as scum initially?

It was mainly for trying to direct the NK. That's not normally an action I would associate with town.

[Bulbazak]

You also forgot a third possibility: Mafia directing Werewolves to shoot as town. Bo's right. This is WIFOM, and doesn't help to derail an argument, as you could just as easily been scum who did that.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulbazak: post 110 why didn't you respond to this post by egg?

I didn't feel there was a need to respond to it. For the record, I didn't really care for the post, as it's AtE, and it just didn't feel genuine to me. However, I decided I wanted to see more of him and his actions independent of me before placing a vote, which was a good thing, as he graduated to being a town read.

Unvote

Vote Thenewearth

You would think that calling someone obv. town would be based on something more substantial than gut. If you check out Bo's reads, which you criticized, you'll notice he has a very definite reason for Klick.

You were one of the 3 scum reads I wanted to see more of, and what I'm seeing is not genuine.

Can you elaborate on this?

I had 4 scum reads early game: Mac, Egg, TNE, and you. I decided that I wanted to see more of Egg, TNE, and you, as the reads were still in the nullish area for different reasons, and I wanted to see some more interactions in general in order to refine my reads. Mac was a stronger town read, so I placed a vote on him. Any questions?

Also seeing Icebox as more likely to be scum

. As you can see above, I inadvertently created a reaction test, and they didn't bite.

You need to expand on this. For obvious reasons. Having read 232: I still remain utterly confused.

Everybody who responded to the post was confused about the robot reference and asked about it, even if they commented on something else. You, however, didn't, and only commented on my calling you scum. It was a knee-jerk reaction. You essentially said, "I'm not scum! You're scum!", which of course sets off my scumdar immediately. You essentially panicked and gave yourself away.

VOTE: TNE

Was that a scum slip?

Hmmm...

[Bulbazak]

1. This is what bothers me. You said my post was forced, yet when egg did the same, you said nothing.
2. That's not what I wanted to know, you stated TNE did not respond how he was supposed to, explain how he reacted and why it was scummy. Unless you mean, that you didn't have anything, and were just pressing him.
3. There are 12 players in this game. How does 3 constitute "everyone." Your accusation requires no other response than "no" because that's what it amounts to.

1. They are not the same. You reacted badly to a post and I called you out on it. Egg gave an explanation of a previous action, which had nothing to do with him OMGUSing on somebody. And btw, I never said your post was "forced", I said it was a knee-jerk reaction to being called scum.

2. I never said that. I said that his post didn't feel genuine, which means exactly that, not real. It's really not something that can be quantified, but it's still a good tool when hunting scum.

3. I said "everybody who responded to the post", of which there were only 3. I was absolutely correct in what I said.

Your misrep attempts are noted.

[Bulbazak]

Oh, that's what you meant. What I meant was that you were trying too hard when answering that post to appear town. Real townies don't go about calling themselves town every 20 sec (I hardly do so at all, mainly because I know my alignment, and I don't care if you do or not.).

[Bulbazak]

I'm not really against a Zach lynch, But an explanation would be nice

Town would want an explanation before the lynch.

That could just as easily be faked as scum.

[Bulbazak]

Is there anything anyone wants to discuss?

Sure.

*Unless of course we're on the same team.

Why did you include this piece of WIFOM?

[Bulbazak]

It's a bad way to do it.

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

In other news, does anybody remember when the deadline is? I feel as if we need to be getting our act together.

[Bulbazak]

Thanks. I've been ran ragged the past week or so, and I think it's starting to catch up with me. For the first time ever, I can't keep track of my games...

On a game related note: What did everyone else think about Icebox's bit of WIFOM that she added regarding Klick by way of EBWODP? Personally, I believe that Klick is town, and there was nothing in Icebox's originally post that begged for such an addition, not to mention that it was a strange addition in and of itself.

[Bulbazak]

Oh wait, you meant the "unless we are on the same team". I actually see that as realizing he could be called out as scum with klick and feeling the need to point it out first.

Except town should never have any reason to say that. Ever. When I'm town, I can care less what people think about me. My read is my read. And I'm most certainly not going to put down a line like "unless we're on the same team". That's useless, contrary to a town mindset, and like I said before, it is giant load of WIFOM, because it causes town to flop around regarding her alignment, and hopefully, from a scum viewpoint, start to reconsider the Klick townread. Bottom line: That post was anti-town.

Unvote

Icebox has become my top scumread, and Fuzzy has exited the null range to hang out with the scummy kids. I can't remember why I was voting TNE in the first place, so I'm going to take the time to remind myself and figure out where I want to go from here.

[Bulbazak]

You can't remember why you voted someone and never explained why in the first place. Saying someone isn't genuine, without pointing out why to the rest of us is not helpful.

I've had a hard week and am admittedly not playing this game to the best of my ability (I think I mentioned it before. Maybe?). My head was hurting and eyes were blurring, and I was not up for trying to figure out why I voted TNE in the first place. The fact that I can't remember my initial reasons probably means that they were weak in the first place. However, I now have some stronger scumreads that I want to pursue, so I doubt I'll be putting my vote back on TNE.

Furthermore you're using the mind-projection fallacy. So, yeah.

First, that's not a real fallacy (or if so, there's a different name for it). Second, I used my point of view, because I tried using your point of view and kept on messing the sentences up (My head really wasn't in the game...). My point was that there is zero town motive for writing that sentence. Period. Town shouldn't be worried about what people think about their reads. And even if they are, there is no reason that they should ever write, "Unless we are on the same team", ever. As I explained, it is a crap ton of WIFOM, and there's zero town motive for writing it. However, there's a lot of scum motive.

Vote Icebox

[Bulbazak]

I double checked my reason for TNE. It was mainly for meh play. The scumread on Icebox is more substantial, though.

@Mod: I will be V/LA until Tuesday.

[Bulbazak]

Klick hasn't made enough posts for a read?

Nah. He'd be a scum read if he were active lurking, but he's said multiple times that he's been busy. I've felt overwhelmed in games before where I couldn't post enough to keep up.

Where did this null/scum read come from, especially since you had Klick as a town read earlier in the game?

1. If I am town, then who is scum?

Don't know. I haven't seen anything to make me start forming possible scum teams, outside of that one comment by you. That being said, I don't like the backtracking that follows that question.

@Klick: After seeing your results, I don't understand the point of that RQS in the first place, because all you're going to get is suspicions on everybody. I believe I've already covered how I almost forgot that the mafia team was composed of 3 players, and it took a quick look at the setup to remind myself. Eddie Fenix was a name I added at the last minute because of this. I'm also a player who puts a lot of thought and time into my posts, so saying that my knowing the setup is a point against me is just stupid and is actually a null tell. I'll probably look over this post a few times before posting it, just like I do everything I post. Period.

Bulb's icebox vote doesn't feel genuine to me.

What about it doesn't feel genuine?

Fuzzy's last few posts make me think he might be town.

[Bulbazak]

@Mod: I've had my vote on Icebox for awhile now.

Vote count has been fixed to reflect this. Any time I have missed anything just let me know like this.

@Bo:

2. Who would you like to be

Mafia

with in this game?

Your reasons are invalid.

@ Bulb: Explain why you think Fuzzy's response makes him town.

He's not backing off of his stances (#410) and they read as genuine.

[Bulbazak]

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that your RQS Mafia/Werewolf reasoning has been shown to be invalid. If he's null because of activity, that's fine, but it's not enough for a scum read.

[Bulbazak]

What don't you understand?

[Bulbazak]

What don't you understand?

You say this doesn't look genuine, or this is wrong, or you don't "like" something. But you don't elaborate further without prompting. It makes it difficult to determine if you're scum hunting or not.

A big part of scumhunting is determining whether somebody is sincere in what they're saying or not. As such, I look for scum to make fake or forced posts, while town's posts will be more natural, and therefore, more genuine. Part of it is admittedly gut, but a large part also revolves around close reading to determine motivation. Personally, there has not been much that has really gone on this game or captured my attention. Therefore, I'm relying more on gut and motivation tells.

[Bulbazak]

Fuzzy, if you're town, survival shouldn't be your #1 priority. Scumhunting should be. Survival can be #2.

[Bulbazak]

Actually, @Everyone: Why are you voting me. Give your reasons. Do not requote yourself.

-Rem

1. I am town. I know it because I received a town role pm. I know it because I have confidence in my ability to read and not misinterpret my role message. I know it because of how I will play this game, which is to search for Mafia and werewolves and to keep the town alive.

You overdid it here by trying to convince us so hard that you were town. It feels fake. I've found that normally those who overemphasize that they're town are actually scum. I don't put much stock in your "trust tell". It's too much WIFOM. I tried to give you a break because of it, and watched you to see what you would do, but the WIFOM continued, and I felt that I was right in my initial assessment.

Notes before I leave for the day:

Autti's #176 has robots in it.

Still not wild about Mac's play, but at least he's starting to participate.

Due to #188, should TNE flip scum, Icebox is likely his partner.

Just like how you're scum if fuzzy flip scum.

As I explained earlier, the Autti comment ended up being an inadvertent reaction test, which everybody who responded to the post addressed. Except you. Instead, you skipped right to the end to address a suspicion based on association, and one that admittedly was not as strong. I essentially called you scum, and you responded with only "I'm not scum. You're scum!", which is essentially OMGUS (And yes, I know that there wasn't a vote on either side, but it's the same principle. You called someone scum for calling you scum.).

*Unless of course we're on the same team.

-Rem

This post is an extreme bit of WIFOM and CAN NOT have come from town. If town feels that they may be mistaken, they either don't mention it, or they downplay it in how they post, normally via vocabulary. Rarely do they say that they might be wrong, and they NEVER say "Unless we're on the same team." That bit of WIFOM does not help town one bit, and it weakens the town read on Klick and opens up doubt on what was a strong town read for many people. Town would never do that, because it plays against their wincon and is essentially a lie, since they know that they're not scum, so there's no reason to present that WIFOM to the rest of the town.

Point is, I can't see any of this coming from a town mindset. Therefore, you are my strongest scumread.

[Bulbazak]

I know for a fact you're wrong.

WIFOM

and

AtE. You're really stepping it up.

You're assuming I think like other players, that I don't have motivations outside of mafia that make me say these things or that I don't have particular quirks.

This is a game, and you need to play it as such. There is no outside motivation outside of the game of Mafia that should influence your play to that degree. If it is a personal belief against lying or deception, you're going to find out that you'll lose pretty quickly. Play the game, and play to win. If you are indeed using "trust tells", you are going to lose, and are playing against all future wincons, and are therefore a bad player. I'm assuming the opposite and using standard tells to determine your alignment.

Third: Your reaction test, is not very good given your results. It's not an inadvertent reaction test, if you don't plan it and decide what you're looking for beforehand. You don't know how to interpret your results, and your conclusion about me only proves that. That wasn't a reaction test, that was just something you said and then noticed a bunch of people responded to it and then you noticed, "hey that guy didn't!"

Just because I didn't intend it as a reaction test does not mean that it isn't effective. If you are the only person who doesn't react to something strange, naturally I'm going to wonder what's going on. Couple that with the fact that you only responded to allegations of you being scummy, and I'm naturally going to be suspicious.

Furthermore GIF already responded to this.

You, however, didn't, and only commented on my calling you scum. It was a knee-jerk reaction. You essentially said, "I'm not scum! You're scum!", which of course sets off my scumdar immediately.

If you're talking about #198, I was sarcastically calling your associative logic there shit.

-G

I didn't post that, Gif did. He was making fun of you for your awful logic. Then used that logic against you, it wasn't a "I'm not scum! You're scum!" it's a "That's really stupid, let me show how stupid it is by using the same logic" and now you've misinterpreted it and

completely ignored Gif's response,

in favor of your own reasoning.

Saying someone's logic is bad is not the same as explaining why it is bad. Gif's response is the equivalent of throwing poo, and I don't dignify such things with a response.

There's neither town, nor scum motivation with that EBWOP, just me being me.

Then you posted something completely useless in a game where everyone is trying to deduce the meaning behind everything that is said. EVERYTHING you say and do is tied back to your alignment. Your personality can give it a unique spin, but it is still related. Saying otherwise is ludicrous. If you were town, there was no reason to say such a thing in the first place, as it should never have crossed your mind. If scum, it's the opportune piece of WIFOM. Given everything, you're either simply a bad player or scum. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming the latter.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulb: Wifom is not a scum tell and it's not wifom given it is the truth. You're assuming it isn't. If you have nothing better, then try to get something better. Either by questioning me for my actions or questioning others until you can reveal scummy behavior, not just behavior that is unique or difficult to interpret.

First, truth is subjective in this game. Only a limited few know what is true. Everyone else just knows a limited version of the truth, which is unhelpful as a whole. If you're town, you

know

that you're town, but nobody else does. Saying so can

properly

be construed as WIFOM, as there is no proof for it. We have to take your word for it, which is something that we should absolutely

never

do.

Second, WIFOM can be a scumtell, because it's scum saying something knowing that town will try to ascertain the meaning behind it, knowing that scum knew the phrase would be dissected (But you knew that I might be watching, therefore...). It's a phrase that ends up being a waste of time. Town can say things that do the same thing. Normally it's involving something that we have to trust their word on, such as "I don't do this as scum". In these cases, they should still be handled in the same way as WIFOM and considered untrustworthy.

Third, I have questioned and addressed these points before, and I wasn't satisfied with the answers I received, as it ended up being more WIFOM, more "trust me" or "take my word for it". Point of the matter is that I don't trust you, and I don't believe you, and you saying that I should is not helping matters, as it only compounds the scum read. I don't see the town motivation behind your actions. Therefore, I think you are scum and that you should be lynched.

[Bulbazak]

Was going back through Fuzzy's ISO and found this:

If that wasn't why he thought the slot was scum, then he wouldn't have stated that,

alongside his saying that he and I were the scum team.

Zach never said that they were scum together...

Going to go over your case, Icebox, and give my thoughts.

[Bulbazak]

I think Fuzzy is scum, because of lack of hunting, his out of character play, his survivalism. I disagree with DBK's and Bulb's cases that he is town. And it's clear to me he is having difficulty keeping his story straight. Further, his reads are extremely lazy. His comments on how I am playing shows a complete lack of understanding, that I think town would be able to recognize. They might doubt my scum hinting, but they will not deny it is there. It shows a real lack of interpretation or depth that I find is something newer scum have difficulty with.

I don't see the lack of hunting, nor his out of character play (I've only completed 3 games with him, and I still can't read him.). His survivalism is a good point, as scum is more apt to do it than town. I can also see where he has been constantly backpedaling. However, I think in order to convince the rest of the town, you're going to need some more concrete points, which means you need to refine your case a bit.

[Bulbazak]

ok do you guys think we should be lynching for werewolves or lynching for mafia on d1 (serious question)

I wanna hear some theory stuff out of each of you right now about this specific setup before I decide who I'm gonna let into my town pile

I honestly hadn't put much thought into it. My thought process is: Find scum, and lynch it. Theory-wise, probably lynching the wolves would be better, as we'd eliminate the nk, and we could find scum at our own pace by using traditional scumhunting methods.

P-Edit: Look at that beautiful scum posting from Icebox. Will explain in a minute.

[Bulbazak]

So, I think it's optimal to not concentrate on one faction so much it is better to aim for specific factions on specific days. As it is best to use these factions to do the legwork for town.

That said, getting rid of the NK, will protect stronger town players from the NK, which can be a huge disadvantage to us and the mafia.

But a lot of this speculation relies on a sort of standard level of skill. Obviously if the Mafia team is better, then they should be concentrated on first, or else strong town players and Werewolves will be made quick work of and they'll be difficult to lynch with all three still alive. If the werewolf team concentrates their NK's on strong town players rather then on Mafia then they should be brought down first (but the Mafia should be bled so that their voting power becomes weaker).

Did anybody else catch the slip?

[Bulbazak]

Wow, calling that a slip, I see.

It can be interpreted both ways.

Scumbuddy?

[Bulbazak]

Klick, they just want your vote off of them.

[Bulbazak]

Do I seriously have to explain the slip? I thought it was obvious.

[Bulbazak]

I've underlined the key word.

So, I think it's optimal to not concentrate on one faction so much it is better to aim for specific factions on specific days. As it is best to use these factions to do the legwork for town.

That said, getting rid of the NK, will protect stronger town players from the NK, which can be a huge

disadvantage

to us and the mafia.

But a lot of this speculation relies on a sort of standard level of skill. Obviously if the Mafia team is better, then they should be concentrated on first, or else strong town players and Werewolves will be made quick work of and they'll be difficult to lynch with all three still alive. If the werewolf team concentrates their NK's on strong town players rather then on Mafia then they should be brought down first (but the Mafia should be bled so that their voting power becomes weaker).

She said that getting rid of the NK and protecting strong town players would be a

disadvantage

for "us and the mafia". Except, getting rid of the NK and protecting town players would be a HUGE advantage for town, not a disadvantage. The only ones it would be a disadvantage to would be the werewolves (the "us" she mentioned) and the mafia. Also take a closer look at that post in general. She focuses more time on the Werewolf faction and why it should not be killed than she does the Mafia faction. When she does mention getting rid of the Werewolf faction, it's almost like an afterthought.

Also, did anybody else notice that she was PR hunting?

P-Edit: I guess you did...

[Bulbazak]

If Icebox is werewolf then bulba is buddy

How did you come to

that

conclusion?

[Bulbazak]

She said that getting rid of the NK and protecting strong town players would be a disadvantage for "us and the mafia". Except, getting rid of the NK and protecting town players would be a HUGE advantage for town, not a disadvantage.

There's actually no advantage.

We don't even friggin' know if they're confirmed. Covering up for them is pretty much stupid. So yeah.

Plus. You're pretty much covering up for Icebox. So again yeah

1.) How is getting rid of the NK and keeping town players alive

not

advantageous to town?

2.) How am I "covering up" for Icebox? I'm saying she scum slipped and was explaining how she slipped.

Are you even reading this game?

[Bulbazak]

why did people townread klick (this is the first i've heard of townreads on klick)

It mostly had to do with his RQS and his willingness to trust the "trust tell" from Icebox, although if he's partners with Icebox, that'd be kind of a moot point.

P-Edit:

[Bulbazak]

I didn't ever say opportunism

but there actually is opportunism in your defense by misrepresenting me

When did Klick ever say that you did say "opportunism". He may have been talking about being called "opportunistic" in general, as both Fuzzy and Mac called him "opportunistic".

Unvote

Vote Fuzzybutternut

That should be L-2, I believe.

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, Wisdom can be hard headed. Hey Morning. How are you doing on the readthrough?

[Bulbazak]

Icebox, how do you know Bacde is not a werewolf?

[Bulbazak]

Answer the question Icebox, don't dance around it.

[Bulbazak]

That is a crappy reason.

[Bulbazak]

/confirmed

1. Are you Town? Give three sentences to explain your reasoning.
2. Who would you like to be Mafia with in this game?

1. Nope. I'm a monkey. Ook.
2. Maestro and Eddie Fenix

On a serious note, glad to see Fuzzy again.

He's really cool and easy to read.

If he's Mafia, he'll slip within 3 pages.

I think Fuzzy is scum, because of lack of hunting, his out of character play, his survivalism. I disagree with DBK's and Bulb's cases that he is town. And it's clear to me he is having difficulty keeping his story straight. Further, his reads are extremely lazy. His comments on how I am playing shows a complete lack of understanding, that I think town would be able to recognize. They might doubt my scum hinting, but they will not deny it is there. It shows a real lack of interpretation or depth that I find is something newer scum have difficulty with.

I don't see the lack of hunting, nor his out of character play (

I've only completed 3 games with him, andI still can't read him

.). His survivalism is a good point, as scum is more apt to do it than town. I can also see where he has been constantly backpedaling. However, I think in order to convince the rest of the town, you're going to need some more concrete points, which means you need to refine your case a bit.

I thought I could read Fuzzy. He proved me wrong. Big woop!

Please say that you checked Rem's meta before you posted this.

I used to check meta a lot, but I'm too busy anymore. If I haven't played a game with you already, I'm unlikely to go out of my way to check your meta. I'm learning to rely more on what is in the actual thread.

*Unless of course we're on the same team.

-Rem

This post is an extreme bit of WIFOM and CAN NOT have come from town. If town feels that they may be mistaken, they either don't mention it, or they downplay it in how they post, normally via vocabulary. Rarely do they say that they might be wrong, and they NEVER say "Unless we're on the same team." That bit of WIFOM does not help town one bit, and it weakens the town read on Klick and opens up doubt on what was a strong town read for many people. Town would never do that, because it plays against their wincon and is essentially a lie, since they know that they're not scum, so there's no reason to present that WIFOM to the rest of the town.

IF it was #302 by itself. But If you connect it with #301 (Which you should. You know. Which is was meant to be.), there's no WIFOM that you mentions.

Even connected with #301, it'd still be WIFOM for the reasons specified.

This is a game, and you need to play it as such. There is no outside motivation outside of the game of Mafia that should influence your play to that degree. If it is a personal belief against lying or deception, you're going to find out that you'll lose pretty quickly. Play the game, and play to win. If you are indeed using "trust tells", you are going to lose, and are playing against all future wincons, and are therefore a bad player. I'm assuming the opposite and using standard tells to determine your alignment.

Blah Blah Blah. What you said here implies that our slot is pitiful

town

that needs some coaching.

Well, seeing as how you outed yourselves as the seer, because you thought you saw breadcrumbing that wasn't there, yes, I think you're derp town.

Which reaction test are you talking about here?

Read the thread. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Saying someone's logic is bad is not the same as explaining why it is bad. Gif's response is the equivalent of throwing poo, and I don't dignify such things with a response.

That was the whole point of #198. All I did was just say stuff that you said to us, which you called "throwing poo." See what I mean now?

Actually, I said that you were likely to be scum if TNE was scum due to some associative tells I had seen. You, however, just straight up called me scum with no reasoning attached, which you said was a way to say my logic was bad. My point is that simply saying or implying someone's logic is bad does little good compared to explaining why the logic was bad, and is thus the equivalent of throwing poo.

Sure. Whatever you say. But since we claimed already (and no counterclaim), we're not getting lynched. Too bad for you.

Except I have already unvoted you. I have no interest in lynching a PR, tyvm. I'm kinda annoyed that you didn't read current events and instead set off to start a fight, which does little good for town. I've clarified several points for you, but I'm assuming this will be the end of this stupidity. If you still want to fight, be advised that I'll simply ignore you, barring true stupidity on your part. Have a nice day.

Egg is casting a wide net in #769. Called or implied that 6 people were scum.

Bulbazak got really quiet after Icebox's claim. He's around and posting, but his responses after the claim have been very curt. Considering how hardcore he was going after Icebox prior to the claim, his silence surprises me. No opinions on Klick? No opinions on Icebox's claim? Is the claim legit? Are the other wagons legit? I think Bulba felt he had a good case on Icebox and pushed hard. When he discovered Icebox was the seer, he freaked out and got really quiet. Why? It's the main reason I think Bulba is scum; no reason to fade off into the background after your major scumread claims a PR unless you're trying to hide.

Except for the fact that people were posting in rapidfire succession last night. Because of that, I watched to see what the general consensus on the claim was and awaited a counter claim. When I saw none coming, I went back and checked several ISOs. When I was done with that (and catching up on what I missed), I immediately unvoted and voted for Fuzzy (one of the ISOs I read through). Did you expect anything more than that? Regardless of my read on Icebox, everything drops when there is a PR claim. Period. I've only been starting to get decent reads since then. I've had mostly nulls all game. Plus, I've been apathetic, so there's that.

Pedit: Autti is even more definitely scum

Lies. I've actually been very attentively reading this game. Although when Bacde joined i'm now 5 pages behind. I just haven't had that much to post. I try to be a quality over quantity person. Although it seems my case on Icebox was so very very bad. Oh well.

Proof positive you are actively lurking.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Autti

Eh. Do you really think i'm scummier than Fuzzy?

*twitch*

[Bulbazak]

Also, Morning is probably town.

[Bulbazak]

Tell me why picking fights is little good for town. Because I'm starting to get a better read on you with this.

It's the picking useless fights that are the problem. You were going back and nitpicking on old arguments after I had already unvoted, making said arguments null and void. Also, sometimes arguments can go on so long and get so heated that they end up being a distraction and therefore end up hurting town more than helping. The key sometimes is learning when to pursue something and when to let something go. Admittedly, I'm not the best at knowing where that line is, but pursuing something when it doesn't matter anymore is definitely over it.

Also, Bulb, I don't see anything wrong with Egg having 6 scum reads.

The way he did it felt off. It felt less like actual scumreads and more like keeping his options open.

P-Edit: Reads list forthcoming.

[Bulbazak]

Sorry for the delay. Had a podcast that I had to do.

Reads:

Town:
Bacde
Syryana
Icebox

Null/Town:
Goodmorning
Klick

Null:
Thenewearth
Does Bo Know

Null/Scum:
Mac

Scum:
Egg
Autti
Fuzzybutternut

Feel free to ask questions. I may even answer them.

[Bulbazak]

I want to see what everyone else has Fuzzy as scum for besides opportunism.

When I went back through his ISO for Icebox, I noticed a lot of backpedaling from Fuzzy. After going through his ISO again after Icebox claimed, I found that his play in general just doesn't feel genuine. I might be able to dredge up specific examples later, but I don't feel like doing so right now.

[Bulbazak]

Going to respond to this, as I didn't have time on d1:

Can you explain your town read on goodmorning? He's someone I'm trying to understand a bit because I had a town read on zach and he doesn't look so town so I'm wrong somewhere considering he replaced zach.

I've played with GM as both alignments. This is looks more like town-GM.

While Autti is a good lynch, I'm not going to put him at L-1 so early in the day, especially since I don't think he's Fuzzy's partner. However, after doing a side-by-side ISO, I think I know who is.

Vote Egg

Called Fuzzy scum for most of the day, yet avoided the wagon until it started to gain traction after Bacde replaced in. Is eager to direct the NKs. When asked about which faction should be lynched, he preferred lynching Mafia over Werewolf. He's also been keeping his options open lynch-wise.

[Bulbazak]

I did a side-by-side of Egg, Autti, and you alongside Fuzzy. I looked at Klick and Mac independently.

[Bulbazak]

I completely forgot Mac existed. Any new conclusions with that?

Still think he's scum, but he's not Fuzzy's partner.

[Bulbazak]

Mac is mega-town

Do explain.

[Bulbazak]

I actually did ISO Bo and Fuzzy, because I had the same thought. I saw no connection between the 2. Bo flopped back and forth on Fuzzy all game, but it didn't read as partner interaction whatsoever.

[Bulbazak]

I never really explained why I think Klick is scum

but Mac independently came up with the exact same reason on his own

Thats unlikely to come from someone who is Klick's buddy, they would have come up with shoddy reasoning at best

Which means the only way for Mac to be scum (assuming Klick is mafia) is if he is a werewolf

But he's probably not a werewolf for a bunch of reasons I've been saying

Or it means Klick might be town, Mac might be scum, and you might have confirmation bias.

I actually did ISO Bo and Fuzzy, because I had the same thought. I saw no connection between the 2. Bo flopped back and forth on Fuzzy all game, but it didn't read as partner interaction whatsoever.

what do you look for when trying to read for partner interactions?

I'm looking for reasons on the wagon (Are they bussing or not.), reactions to each other, and whether any interaction between them read as genuine or manufactured.

Bo was on the Fuzzy wagon when it made no sense for a scumpartner to be on it. His actual confusion concerning Fuzzy's alignment reads as genuine, even when read in a dual ISO, which leads me to believe that Bo had no clue what Fuzzy's actual alignment was. I would have expected Fuzzy's partner to perhaps bus him when it seemed inevitable to gain towncred, but Bo was on the wagon when it didn't make sense for a partner to be.

However, go back and check Egg's reaction. He states approval for the Fuzzy wagon for most of the game without joining it, and he only joins it after it starts gaining a lot of traction after Bacde enters the game. That read like distancing and bussing to me.

[Bulbazak]

Remind me of it.

[Bulbazak]

Bo was on the Fuzzy wagon when it made no sense for a scumpartner to be on it.

His actual confusion concerning Fuzzy's alignment reads as genuine, even when read in a dual ISO, which leads me to believe that Bo had no clue what Fuzzy's actual alignment was. I would have expected Fuzzy's partner to perhaps bus him when it seemed inevitable to gain towncred, but Bo was on the wagon when it didn't make sense for a partner to be.

how does the bolded work then. iirc DBK hopped on every wagon and it's mother, before hammering fuzzy. distancing and then bussing.

Did you read the rest of my post? Bo's reasonings for voting the way he did and his confusion on Fuzzy read as genuine. Their interactions did not read like 2 scumpartners when I went through their ISO. Therefore, I don't think Bo is Fuzzy's partner.

Well, I can explain it first

when I replaced into the game, everyone was hounding on icebox, thinking icebox was scum

there was also a clamor on fuzzy

Now I sorta make an assumption when I join games, I assume that the entire town is wrong and that the biggest bandwagon is on town. I know this isn't always true, but its what I do because it causes everyone to have a big reaction to me which helps me get reads.

so I assumed both fuzzy and icebox were town

But I wanted to reaction test, and icebox posted something that was a little awkward that someone called him out for being a slip, so I acted like it was a big deal and was a slip (and even posted a large image of stick figures playing football that said "FUMBLE!!"). Whats interesting is that I was TOTALLY supportive of wagoning icebox vocally, but I never voted icebox, because I was just trying to see how people would react. I never actually thought icebox made a slip, it was just awkward phrasing.

While I was doing that, not only did Klick vote for, push on, and be confident about icebox being scum for his slip, he ALSO lauded me for joining the game saying that I make the game more entertaining. That set off my scum-dar as I once played in a klick-modded game before as town and pretty much guaranteed a scum-victory with my poor play (I've gotten better since then )

Was this your entire case? That Klick welcomed you to the game and was influenced by a slip (which from experience playing with him, he is apt to do)? Face it, you have nothing. For the same reason, Mac is not automatically town, because he brought up the slip thing. In fact, he's probably scum who is buddying up to you seeking town cred.

[Bulbazak]

what icebox posted

was not a slip

, icebox

was not scum

and therefore

could not have slipped

klick got really excited about people thinking that someone not on his team slipped, and he voted. Klick is scum

why are you so motivated to tell me that "I have nothing"? I have something, in fact I have GREAT evidence. You are mafia too, aren't you?

But that was something that we didn't know at the time. I thought I saw a slip, I called them out on it, and explained it. Klick is influenced by slips, whether they are real or not. I've seen this before when I've played with him, so I don't have a hard time believing it. Another example from this game would be Icebox's trust tell. Unlike everyone else, Klick believed it immediately. In a similar manner, I've seem him believe supposed town slips almost immediately, even when it doesn't make sense to. So, I'm not going to immediately cry "scum" just because he followed a slip, which he has been proven apt to do.

And no, you do not have a great case. A greeting and an easily explained act do not a great case make. They make terrific supporting evidence, but they cannot hold an entire case together. If you want to convince me that Klick is scum, you're going to have to do better than that, using actual scumtells.

[Bulbazak]

Last I checked, nearly everyone else was on board. I'm just stating why the case against him is actually bad. There are much better scumspects out there, Autti, Mac, and Egg, to name a few.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba: Can you tell me why Egg is suspicious? I have him as a strong townread from early play.

He voiced support for a Fuzzy lynch yet never actually voted him until after Bacde replaced in a started getting the wagon rolling. He tried to direct the NK, which I've stated how anti-town that is (It also gave him a reason to unleash some WIFOM.). In regards to his scumreads, he's been keeping his options open. Finally, when asked about which faction should take a priority lynch-wise, he preferred to focus on the mafia, wanting to keep the werewolf NKs in play in an effort to use them, which is a fairly werewolf-sided response. I strongly believe him to be the last werewolf, and Fuzzy's partner.

[Bulbazak]

What are your thoughts on the exchange?

[Bulbazak]

Syryana, of course I'm going to be looking for the wolf in particular. They have a night kill! We get rid of the wolf, we can begin to control the pace of the game, since we will no longer have to worry about losing town members during the night. Going into tomorrow, we'd outnumber scum 2:1, and unlike some people, I don't believe this would mean that scum would become impossible to catch. The NK is the biggest threat to the town right now. If we can eliminate that, we can control the game and find scum via PoE.

[Bulbazak]

I don't see how being in a 6:3 nightless today (assuming we find and catch the wolf) is better than being in a possible 5:1 nightless tomorrow (if mafia are caught/NK'd and we then lynch the wolf) or some other combination. There's one scenario in which we

won't

be in a situation that's better than today, and that's if the wolf and the town both kill townies. A scenario I find frankly unlikely given the pool of suspects atm.

You're assuming that a NK will hit mafia and not town. The chance that the NK might hit town makes leaving the wolf alive too big of a risk. If we have a good idea who the wolf is, that should be our lynch. Otherwise, lynching any flavor of scum will do.

[Bulbazak]

Egg is a scumread who I happen to think is a wolf, AKA Fuzzy's partner. If I didn't have a lead otherwise, I'd just vote one of my other scumreads.

[Bulbazak]

Who ARE your other scumreads?

Autti and Mac. Still trying to figure out what I think about TNE and Bo, as they are both nulls.

[Bulbazak]

Why Mac?

1.)

VOTE: Mac
For having the shortest name on the playerlist.

What about Egg? Same amount of letters AND first alphabetically.

This feels like scum who is reacting to being caught for the wrong reasons.

2.)

So... do these guys look like scum partners or what?

Already explained why this was bad. He's seeking the town's approval on a scum read. A town player would have been more assertive. Mac is implying that there is scumminess in the interactions, but he has to make sure that it is okay for him to proceed, since he doesn't want to put himself out there too much.

3.) His later vote on me is pure OMGUS, and again feels like caught scum.

4.) Bacde says Mac is town because of Mac agreeing with him and figuring out the Klick case first. However, it just as easily could be Mac buddying Bacde and trying to paint Klick as scummy, which I believe is the case.

[Bulbazak]

A fucking RVS post? REALLY? I'll respond to the rest when I return but including an RVS post means it doesn't look good. Why on EARTH would I panic about a vote

that didn't even count?

The scummy part was you trying to shift attention off of yourself and onto Egg ("Why did you vote me and not Egg?"). Fuzzy was caught in RVS, why can't you be?

[Bulbazak]

link to fuzzy being caught during rvs plz

i want to see the post and the post catching him

For the record, 1337 is why Fuzzy will be caught in 3 pages if scum.

You do realize I just won a game as scum, when my partner was lynched early game, right?

I'm not as bad as scum as you think I am.

Similarly, why did Fuzzy get defensive about it? Being easily recognizable as scum shouldn't be a problem for him if he were town, it's actually advantageous for town him.

-Rem

Where did I get defensive, Ice?

[Bulbazak]

2) whats the difference between that and you saying you are not town in rvs? LOLSCUM

What you said was serious. You asked Syryana why he was voting you and not Egg, showing that you cared more about his RVS vote than he did. Again, it feels like scum who got caught for the wrong, or in this case a stupid, reason.

Also, nice deflection by trying to bring in my RQS answer. The two are not even close to being similar. As I've said, your post is closer to Fuzzy's reaction in RVS to me saying he'd be easy to find as scum, rather than to me having fun with an RQS question and stating that I'm a monkey. Ook.

[Bulbazak]

listen, bulbazak, if you think mac is scum, who do you think is his partner?

I believe Mac is mafia, since he genuinely wanted to lynch Fuzzy, which makes his partners Autti and either Bo or TNE. I'm personally leaning TNE, but I need to look into it more.

[Bulbazak]

its super suspicious to me that you aren't even considering the possibility of klick being mafia

I read through his ISO during the night. I believe him to be town.

your reasoning has been more "mac COULD be mafia, and I believe that he is"

rather than having any actual reasoning for WHY mac is mafia

I've stated my reasons. How about you actually read them.

also, if you are this confident about Autti, why are you focused on Mac, who there is obviously contention about his alignment

rather than Autti, who seems to be a universal scumread?

Syryana asked who my other scumreads were, and then asked me about Mac. You've been making a big deal of it ever since. I've simply been addressing your concerns. Thus, I'm not the one who is overly focused on Mac, but you are. Don't misrep me again.

I'll probably switch to Autti later if I can't get my Egg lynch.

P-edit: Thanks TNE for telling me that you're the third member of the mafia team.

[Bulbazak]

Why is TNE telling you he's the third Mafia member with his post? I mean, his posting recently's been pretty poor, but I didn't think it was that condemning.

He's posting stuff similar to what tweaked my scumdar with Mac. He's implying guilt in others, but is doing nothing about it and is seeking the town's approval. It has been most apparent today and in twilight yesterday.

If Bulb votes Autti I'll switch back to Autti. Still standing by whichever wagon is bigger from Klick/Autti I'll be on.

You never took your vote off of Autti, and I feel that there is no need to put someone at L-1 this early in the day.

What do you disagree with in my Mac and Egg cases?

[Bulbazak]

I understand that with you being scum and all, you want to achieve your wincon as soon and painlessly as possible. But can you please not make it so apparent.

[Bulbazak]

Klick, why GM/Bo and not Mac/Egg?

[Bulbazak]

How is Mac obviously town?

[Bulbazak]

RVS is RVS. it was tongue in cheek. it was not serious and I cannot take this part of the case seriously.

Again, Fuzzy was caught in RVS. Why can't you be?

The scummy part was you trying to shift attention off of yourself and onto Egg ("

Why did you vote me and not Egg?

").

Clearly not what I said.

What about Egg?

Same amount of letters AND first alphabetically.

Looks like it to me.

"Why Egg?"

and then reasoning which showed it was a joke.

"same amount of letters AND first alphabetically.

It didn't feel like a joke. You wanted Syryana to provide you with a serious reason why he voted you over Egg. In fact, it's the most serious part of that entire post.

Anyway, walk me through why you think Bo might be Fuzzy's partner, because I didn't see it when I did a dual ISO.

[Bulbazak]

I did ISO Fuzzy and Bo. I didn't see the connection.

[Bulbazak]

Haven't really been feeling it. Most excited I've been has been when Bacde replaced in and gave the game a nice kick in the pants, but still, that was weak compared to my other games. I do feel confident in my reads this game, though.

P-edit: It was his reactions/interactions with Fuzzy the rest of the day that made me think they were not partners. Bo seems genuinely unsure about Fuzzy, which would not be the case if they were the same alignment. And you know as well as I do that Fuzzy likes to try to misdirect when he is scum, and I assume he's gotten better at it since 1337.

[Bulbazak]

Well, this game just got 10 times easier. Egg is the last werewolf. Princess is the last mafia. We lynch Egg today, Princess tomorrow, and bam, town wins.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Egg

Almost forgot...

[Bulbazak]

Why is Egg wolf and Princess mafia?

Egg is wolf for all the reasons I've previously mentioned. He has been tackling this game with wolf intent, and that extends to this post:

I've been wrestling with this a bit in my head all morning. I'm more sure thene is scum than I am with bulb. However, as much as I didn't want to deal with "which scum group should we lynch?", I'm confident in thene being mafia rather than werewolf. And yes, werewolves can and should shoot mafia. And yes, they did so last night. However, with one mafia left, their odds of doing so are much less now. Also, we don't know if the Bo shot was an attempt at mafia or not because some people had him as town. I think it's better to try to eliminate the NK now.

Seriously! Why is no one seeing this?!

Princess is mafia, because her vote yesterday was an obvious bus. She was under a considerable amount of suspicion yesterday, and bussing Klick was on opportunity to gain towncred, which she is going after with a vengeance:

I don't know why you had Autti as scum. I don't care. I'm not Autti and I'm Town. Also, I helped lynch a non Town as my very first vote. That buys me at least one opportunity to be wrong.

Because of this, it doesn't make sense for her to be the last wolf. The only way this would work was if she knew for sure that Klick was mafia, and the only way she'd know that was if she was his partner. Therefore, Princess is the last mafia.

Bulb, tell me why I would have shot bo if I was werewolf.

Bo was in the null/scummy area of everybody's reads, essentially putting him in the gray area. If he was scum, you got rid of one more member of the mafia faction, and if he was town, he had the potential to be extremely influential as the game progressed, as he was one of the stronger players. Essentially, it's a win-win.

I lynched him thinking he was the other werewolf. My goal was to take out one killing faction if at all possible. He was anti-Town so it didn't really matter to me as Town.

And you made that decision, analyzing all of the possible interactions of 40+ pages after only 17 minutes? I don't think so. Let's be honest, you were under extreme suspicion and you needed an out, so you bussed your buddy for towncred. Heck, you even congratulated him on his self-vote.

bulb because he kept trying to keep me from lynching klick yesterday

I was like "we should lynch klick and here's the reason why"

and he was all like "thats not a good reason, why not lynch mac?"

and I'm like "no mac is town, we lynch klick"

and he goes "why not mac? or why not anyone else who isn't klick? Also DBK is a townread of mine"

I don't lynch town reads. As for everything else, I was asked who my scumreads were. I was then asked why I thought Mac was mafia. Then you kept badgering me about that read, even though I said that I was not interested in a Mac lynch that day.

Now that Klick flipped mafia, Mac is no longer a suspect, so you 2 can go over and make out in a corner for all I care. Now are you done misrepping me, or do you want to continue to be butthurt about this?

why is it that the mafia for some reason keep ending up on the townier side of his reads?

Because I had a town read on them. Although to be honest, I wasn't quite sure how I felt about Bo, and I was starting to lean scum on him d2.

he has two wolves in the scum pile

why is it that the mafia for some reason keep ending up on the townier side of his reads?

So I see one wolf in his pile. Unless you have information on Egg being the other wolf?

Also, you are in his Town pile. Are you saying you are mafia? That would make things easy.

Seriously. Princess, stop. I want to lynch the wolf, which means giving you a free pass today. Don't scum up the thread so much that I change my mind.

[Bulbazak]

Princess is mafia, because her vote yesterday was an obvious bus. She was under a considerable amount of suspicion yesterday, and bussing Klick was on opportunity to gain towncred, which she is going after with a vengeance:

I don't know why you had Autti as scum. I don't care. I'm not Autti and I'm Town. Also, I helped lynch a non Town as my very first vote. That buys me at least one opportunity to be wrong.

Because of this, it doesn't make sense for her to be the last wolf. The only way this would work was if she knew for sure that Klick was mafia, and the only way she'd know that was if she was his partner. Therefore, Princess is the last mafia.

So a quote from after the flip is supposed to tell us something about gamestate before the flip? Riiiiiight.

That wasn't the crux of the argument at all GM, and you know it. Princess's vote on Klick yesterday was a play to get town cred, which she affirms with each post that she makes. The only way for her to get towncred from the lynch was if she knew that Klick would flip scum, and the only way to know that for certain would be if she was his partner. It's basic deductive reasoning.

Bo was in the null/scummy area of everybody's reads, essentially putting him in the gray area.

In which universe?

Who besides you had a town read on Bo? From what I remember, he was either seen as scum, leaning scum, or null.

Bulba, I know you can do waaaaaaaaaay better than this. Like a lot.

Is it possible that you learned from Donner Party, and I'm just misreading you?

Seriously. Princess, stop. I want to lynch the wolf, which means giving you a free pass today. Don't scum up the thread so much that I change my mind.

Translation: Dude Princess I know you are the other scum we can win this we just have to work together

I think that is the dumbest thing I've ever read...

[Bulbazak]

Is that really the "dumbest" thing you've ever read?

Probably not, but I try not to think too hard about my Newbie games.

What if I'm just a townie who is trying to figure stuff out?

I believe you, but you need to get over your confirmation bias first before you can proceed.

Couldn't I be wrong about you, and also possibly not dumb?

Depends if you continue to say things like the above quote.

Here's why princess is scum:

She thought that Klick was a werewolf for "associative reasons"

yet never found a single reason that Klick was independently scum

even after reading the thread when many people explicitly posted why Klick was independently scummy

whether she did it for town cred, or opportunistically to avoid being lynched doesn't matter

she clearly wanted to not get read as the scum she is (I'm of the mind that she was trying to force a not-werewolf tell as opposed to bussing, but hey)

Bacde, I'm not doubting Princess is scum, but I do disagree with your assertion that she's the werewolf, as it doesn't make sense given her actions. It is imperative that we lynch the wolf today, rather than scum, so that we don't lose any of the town. Therefore, while we have identified Princess as scum, and since she is more likely to be mafia given the vote and attempt to gain towncred, it is better to leave her for tomorrow and lynch the bigger threat. And in the event we can't find that threat before deadline, we can just lynch her anyway. She's not getting away, so calm down.

[Bulbazak]

And what is your reasons? Because you say so? I'll present a fuller case later tonight. It looks like I have to spell everything out in finger paint for you.

[Bulbazak]

seriously, a "my bad bacde it turns out klick actually was mafia I'll listen to you more"

would have been nice

and might have even made me question my scumread on you

I try not to be apologetic and instead just amend my reads when I'm wrong. I find that I'm suspicious of people who end up being too apologetic in games, as it is impossible to always be right. You do the best that you can, and when you were mistaken, you reevaluate and go from there. I was wrong about Klick. Big whoop. Because of that, I have Mac as confirmed town via PoE. I have one more person that I can trust as town, and I narrowed down the list of scum to a pool of 3. At no point did bowing down to you as the almighty scumhunter enter into my to-do list.

And what is your reasons? Because you say so?

yeah I guess all those posts where I had all of my reasoning laid out for everyone was really just a convoluted way to say "because I say so"

At least have the decency to lay the case out again so that I can see them. I'm doing the same for you. We can actually review and, you know, discuss the merits of both cases.

I don't know, maybe I'm being too whatever today...

[Bulbazak]

Sorry about taking so long. My life has gotten rather hectic recently, but I'm back. Going to outline the Princess as mafia case first, and then move on to responses:

you should probably start contributing because the way things look everyone is going to keep disagreeing about our top scumreads and then you will be the compromise lynch of the day at this rate

o7

I'm Town. Just found the thread. Reading now.

Princess was under considerable pressure, and as Bacde said, would have probably been the lynch, as everybody had her slot as scum of some sort. The first thing she does when she replaces in is say that she is town. This seems forced and overdone, as the first thing town would say would not be "I'm town." That's something that scum say to try to appear town. In fact, town tends to not emphasize their alignment as town as much as scum try to, mainly because town knows that they're town and really don't care to repeatedly inform everyone, instead wanting to just find scum.

17 minutes later (of "reading" the thread):

VOTE: Klick

Well. THAT was easy. Klick is the other werewolf. Now we just have to find the mafia goons.

4 minutes after that, Klick self hammers (That was quick...). 2 minutes after that:

^Good Voting^

Translation: "Thanks partner for helping me with the towncred!"

She has then been trying to use that lynch as reason for why she is town (towncred):

I'm not Autti and I'm Town. Also, I helped lynch a non Town as my very first vote. That buys me at least one opportunity to be wrong. So stop tunneling on me because of the former occupant of this slot.

Again she overemphasizes her "towniness", and she is pushing incredibly hard for towncred from the Klick lynch. Her Klick vote, Klick's reaction, and her response to Klick look like partner interaction and her bussing a buddy for towncred. The only way that could happen would be if she was mafia, and not the wolf. It was apparent to me immediately when reading the thread, which is why I am repeatedly saying that Princess is not wolf, but rather mafia.

Bacde, I've made my Princess-mafia case. Make your Princess-wolf case. We'll then discuss the merits and flaws of both. And don't tell me to look in your ISO. Make it fresh and put some effort into it like I have.

[Bulbazak]

I've been wrestling with this a bit in my head all morning. I'm more sure thene is scum than I am with bulb. However, as much as I didn't want to deal with "which scum group should we lynch?", I'm confident in thene being mafia rather than werewolf.

And yes, werewolves can and should shoot mafia. And yes, they did so last night. However, with one mafia left, their odds of doing so are much less now. Also, we don't know if the Bo shot was an attempt at mafia or not because some people had him as town. I think it's better to try to eliminate the NK now.

Seriously! Why is no one seeing this?!

Egg does seem to be unusually sure TNE is mafia. I'm interested to hear his reasoning. Other than that though, I'm not seeing anything overtly wolfish here. Spell it out for me in nice simple words, Bulb?

Everything that Egg has said tends to center around the werewolves in some form or another. Sure, he may talk about needing to hunt the last wolf, but only because saying otherwise would be too strong of a tell against him. The key part of the quote is how he talks about the NK. This feels like he is talking more out of experience, as the one who made the kill, rather than drawing conclusions about it the day after. His question about Bo is more WIFOM related than an actual question, almost as if he is daring everybody to figure out why he shot Bo, secure in the fact that no one will suspect him, precisely because it was him who asked it.

Why is Mac no longer a suspect?

Bulba, why does Klick's flip make Mac conf-town?

Mac is not a werewolf because of the way he jumped on Fuzzy throughout d1, during RVS specifically. Similarly, he can not be mafia because of the way he questioned Klick. As Bacde said, Mac reached that line of questioning on his own, and he pushed the Klick case when Klick was still thought to be town. Therefore, since he is not werewolf with Fuzzy or mafia with Klick, he must be town.

Your basic deductive reasoning is still ignoring the fact that none of the "this should gain me towncred" posts she made came until after the flip.

Well, there was no way she could make those arguments BEFORE the flip.

As many people had Bo as town yesterday compared to those that had him as scum. E.g. me, GM, Bacde had townreads, Bulba, Mac, TNE had him as a scumread. No idea what Egg thought of him.

I had the feeling that Bo was on the suspect list in some form or another, at least null/scum. Maybe it was just me...

What if I'm just a townie who is trying to figure stuff out?

I believe you, but you need to get over your confirmation bias first before you can proceed.

What confirmation bias?

Bacde has suspected me of being scum ever since I revealed d2 that Mac was a scumread. He kept on pushing me on my reasons for this, and then used this as evidence I was scum, saying that I was focusing on Mac too much (which was not true). Even after I conceded my Mac read, he's continued to push me as scum and oppose all of my reasoning, simply because I had the audacity to have a different read on Mac than he did. It doesn't matter what I do at this point, he'll continue to push me as such, even if all the evidence points against him. Hence, confirmation bias.

Bacde, Bulba, stop being snarky and bitching at each other over stupid shit.

I am. I just had a very stressful week last week, and was just overly snarky to the point of self-destruction. On that I apologize, but I'm not going to do anything more, as I'm not going to feed into a 7for7 sense of arrogance.

There were no votes on the slot so it's not like there was any pressure there. The lack of pressure makes your theory really bad.

Actually, there were 3 votes on your slot, putting you at L-3. Almost everybody had you as a scumread of some sort, and you would most likely have been the compromise lynch had the day continued. Therefore, you had quite a bit of pressure on you.

Don't be ridiculous. I didn't even read the 1st page. I looked at the current vote count and wanted to see if Klick was scum or an easy target. In ISO it was glaringly clear Klick was scum [I assumed wolf. I was wrong. So sue me.] and that the wagon was a good one so I voted. No further reading required.

So, no reading and opportunistic vote. Gotcha.

Princess, two things about 1077. One, Bo's scum read on your slot was probably legitimate. I don't think he was just looking for big wagons, especially now knowing that klick was his buddy. I think he wanted you lynched, but was setting up a bus in case he needed it. He had autti as scum late in Day 1. That's why you aren't mafia in my eyes.

That's actually a good point...

I don't see how null/scummy players are influential.

Bo is a strong town player. While I had a null/scum read on him, had he survived and been town, he would have been an important member of the town as the game progressed.

[Bulbazak]

I still wanna lynch princess though

if she looks like a scum, floats like a scum, and quacks like a scum,

then she's probably a scum

plus if she flips maf you will get mad analytic-cred and I'll be even more willing to help you find the wolf (and be more willing to listen to the possibility of Egg being a wolf)

I believe Princess is scum of some flavor, and I'm more willing to lynch her. Here's what I think: If Princess flips mafia, Egg is wolf. If Princess flips wolf, Egg is town and Thene is mafia. Everybody else is town.

Bulb, tell me you don't see how you are stretching bad play and painting it as scumminess...

What "bad play" are we talking about specifically?

NK speculation is making me think Bulb is a wolf, aaaah

What NK speculation is that?

[Bulbazak]

So brief impressions I got from reading:

Egg still wants to lynch Bulba

Bulba still wants to lynch Egg

Princess made a bet that she should probably have been modkilled for, since it changed Egg's mind

Princess is still scummy.

Did I miss anything?

I'm considering joining the Princess wagon to see what she flips. Are there any really big hanging issues/questions that need to be discussed?

[Bulbazak]

did people miss the part where princess admitted she was a wolf/scum of some sort?

Probably, but it's been obvious for awhile.

I believe Princess is scum of some flavor, and I'm more willing to lynch her. Here's what I think: If Princess flips mafia, Egg is wolf. If Princess flips wolf, Egg is town and Thene is mafia. Everybody else is town.

I can agree w/ this reasoning somewhat

and if thene and egg are town, then bulba is the mafia

Bacde, you want to put this to the test, and lynch Princess? Or do you think there is more to discuss?

[Bulbazak]

The first thing she does when she replaces in is say that she is town. This seems forced and overdone, as the first thing town would say would not be "I'm town."

How can you possibly believe this when you just quoted why I would be motivated to replace in and say that I'm Town?

you should probably start contributing because the way things look everyone is going to keep disagreeing about our top scumreads and then you will be the compromise lynch of the day at this rate

o7

I'm Town. Just found the thread. Reading now.

You could have easily left the "I'm Town" part out, yet you made sure you included it. As I said, it seems forced and overdone.

If Princess flips mafia, Egg is wolf. If Princess flips wolf, Egg is town and Thene is mafia.

And when

Princess flips VT

?

The seas will turn to blood. Cthulu will rise from the deep. Cats and dogs will live together. You know, all the worse parts of the Bible.

But seriously, if you do happen to flip town, Egg is wolf and Thene is mafia, all due to PoE.

Vote Princess Proton

[Bulbazak]

Why would I leave the "I am Town" part out? Are you saying you have never seen a Town person replace into a slot and say that they were Town?

The first thing most town players do when they replace in is to catch up on the game and make a reads post of some kind. You replaced in and within 17 minutes voted the most popular wagon for undisclosed reasons. Just because you continuously shout "I'm town" does not mean that we should believe you, especially when your actions say otherwise.

You didn't even quote Ghostbusters right.

I never intended to.

Did it ever occur to you that you should actually lynch from the Egg/Thene pool instead since your case on me is nonsense and wifom?

Translation: "Lynch those guys! They're way scummier than I am!"

Everything you guys are throwing at this wagon is laughably weak. And it will be exposed in due course.

Actually the case against your slot is pretty sound and has been around since middle to end of d1. Nice attempt to discredit it, though.

[Bulbazak]

WHY DOES SHE NEVER RESPOND TO ME

Because she's scum. Thoughts on who the other one is?

[Bulbazak]

Bulb, are you saying mafia with no NK and 1 member is a bigger threat than wolf with a NK? Why would I NOT focus on wolf today? It doesn't make sense.

No, I agree that we should go for the wolf if at all possible. What I'm saying is that you're too overly focused on either using the NK or talking about why the wolf did such and such. You're emphasizing the wolf's NK motives, almost as if you are describing yourself via third person. You are agreeing that we have to find the wolf, because it's evident that we have to, but everything else you say concerning the NK says the opposite. I think you are the wolf and are going through the motions to appear town.

1. Who said that and where? I don't see it.

The first thing she does when she replaces in is say that she is town. This seems forced and overdone

I call out that logic that in post 1177.

Alright. You kind of misrepresented his argument a bit, but I can see where you'd get that.
Personally I'd disagree with that particular argument of his because I've personally said "I'm Town" replacing in as Town (though I kinda had a reason for that based on history with another player), but there are many better ones.

To be honest, I'm suspicious of anyone who overemphasizes their towniness. So it wasn't strictly a replacing in thing.

I'm not getting cold feet about hammering, I just still want to discuss things

What do you want to discuss?

[Bulbazak]

Sucks when a lynch on town is pretty much inevitible.

So you believe Princess to be town now?

[Bulbazak]

And even if she is mafia, she's not today's lynch because she's not wolf.

Then who is?

[Bulbazak]

Except you were convinced at one point that Princess was the wolf, yet never voted for her. In fact, your vote never left me. It doesn't track. If you thought that Princess was the wolf at one time, and you are, in fact, hunting for the wolf, you would have voted for her. Yet you didn't. Why not?

[Bulbazak]

How is the bet telling, especially since, as she said, she had no intention of keeping it?

[Bulbazak]

everyone else- is Proton werewolf or maf?

Leaning mafia, but her flip will help me get the lynch on the wolf. *fingers crossed*

[Bulbazak]

@Kuribo: Why do you think you will be NK'd?

[Bulbazak]

yeah i read her iso and she's town

Did you read Autti's ISO as well? Why is that slot town?

[Bulbazak]

Well, I look forward to your reads when you actually finish reading.

[Bulbazak]

If shes town, mark my words both scum on her wagon

If she's town, the wolf is off her wagon and is going to try to soak up the towncred (Hi Egg...).

[Bulbazak]

If she is not wolf, Egg is the wolf. If she flips town, I'll have to reread to figure out who the last mafia is.

[Bulbazak]

attaboy bulb, you can come fuck my sister

As long as the lights are out.

[Bulbazak]

not posting reads after your own lynch is tantamount to a fucking scum claim

Not really. For future reference this is tantamount to a replacement not able to play the game due to a fuzzy logic tunnel that resulted in an unnecessary VT lynch. I played fully to my wincon.

Why didn't you fully read the game when you first replaced in?

[Bulbazak]

Why didn't you fully read the game when you first replaced in?

Because I didn't need to?

Why didn't you need to?

Because I was lazy?

That certainly doesn't seem to be the case.

Pick one.

Going to go with "Because you are scum".

I've been fine with my lynch going down as long as people are on record as to why they were on my wagon in the first place. And don't give me any of this "because you didn't post reads - waaah waaah waaah" nonsense because that's all pomp and an attempt at hand waving rather than answering what should be a simple question. I have asked countless times for people to simply quote a non wifom/gut reason for my slot being scum. All I get back is "because..." Which isn't really an answer. So I push it again. "Well... uh... there are reasons! They have been stated." Great. So link to one. LINK TO

ONE

.

Sorry about taking so long. My life has gotten rather hectic recently, but I'm back. Going to outline the Princess as mafia case first, and then move on to responses:

you should probably start contributing because the way things look everyone is going to keep disagreeing about our top scumreads and then you will be the compromise lynch of the day at this rate

o7

I'm Town. Just found the thread. Reading now.

Princess was under considerable pressure, and as Bacde said, would have probably been the lynch, as everybody had her slot as scum of some sort. The first thing she does when she replaces in is say that she is town. This seems forced and overdone, as the first thing town would say would not be "I'm town." That's something that scum say to try to appear town. In fact, town tends to not emphasize their alignment as town as much as scum try to, mainly because town knows that they're town and really don't care to repeatedly inform everyone, instead wanting to just find scum.

17 minutes later (of "reading" the thread):

VOTE: Klick

Well. THAT was easy. Klick is the other werewolf. Now we just have to find the mafia goons.

4 minutes after that, Klick self hammers (That was quick...). 2 minutes after that:

^Good Voting^

Translation: "Thanks partner for helping me with the towncred!"

She has then been trying to use that lynch as reason for why she is town (towncred):

I'm not Autti and I'm Town. Also, I helped lynch a non Town as my very first vote. That buys me at least one opportunity to be wrong. So stop tunneling on me because of the former occupant of this slot.

Again she overemphasizes her "towniness", and she is pushing incredibly hard for towncred from the Klick lynch. Her Klick vote, Klick's reaction, and her response to Klick look like partner interaction and her bussing a buddy for towncred. The only way that could happen would be if she was mafia, and not the wolf. It was apparent to me immediately when reading the thread, which is why I am repeatedly saying that Princess is not wolf, but rather mafia.

[Bulbazak]

Why didn't you need to?

Because I found scum in like 1 minute. Confirmed it in 10.

You hopped on the biggest wagon at the time. That's not finding scum. That's opportunism.

Your big "case" is that I said I was Town when I replaced in. I already told you why you are stupid for pretending I would have no reason for saying I'm Town. I even quoted the post that greeted me that would cause me to claim I was Town. So yeah, you aren't listening. And you aren't making a case.

Actually, that's not my case. That's the least important point of my case. My case is that you hopped onto the biggest wagon of the day to save yourself, since you were likely to be lynched soon. Your interaction with Klick makes me think that it was a bus for towncred, and that he was helping you out. Your push for towncred based on this lynch confirms it. That's not WIFOM (you're using the term wrong), that's observation and deduction. Why the need to strawman me?

P-edit: You said that no one had a case on you, and that if they did, they should link it. I posted my case. Don't start that crap, especially when you asked for it.

[Bulbazak]

My case is that you hopped onto the biggest wagon of the day to save yourself, since you were likely to be lynched soon.

See all this stuff right here? You made it all up in your head.

Nope. My case has been pretty consistent all day.

I'm not going to keep relinking the game for you but this has been addressed.

Inadequately I might add. Just because you say "Nuh uh" does not mean that my case is disproven. In fact, I've actually shown several of your assertions to be false.

And it's all based on confirmation bias.

How's that exactly? Because it's starting to look like you'll say anything to discredit me.

Which is pretty much the same as "gut."

No it's not. Giving a reason why you think someone is scum is not gut.

That would all make sense if it had been done by someone that had already flipped Town but has no business in a case on a person whose alignment you couldn't possibly know.

What?

So that tells me that you likely knew the alignments of other players. Like your partners.

Wait a minute... I thought you said I was suffering from confirmation bias, which would make me town. How am I magically scum 3 sentences later?

[Bulbazak]

Kuribo, bulb is scum because:
-a lot of his posts don't seem genuine. This is especially true in his princess case. I don't think he honestly thinks she is scum. She's just a lynch that isn't him and will probably happen so he likes it. He's painting bad play to look scummy.

Quote an example that looks faked and why.

-he reacted to blatant seer crumbs by fuzzy (who has since flipped scum) by voting him. Although looking back if he was werewolf he'd have known fuzzy wasn't the seer and if he was mafia he wouldn't have cared as much so while this was one of my major points, it's no longer valid.

How could I react to crumbs that I never thought existed in the first place? Voting for Fuzzy had nothing to do with him "breadcrumbing".

Also, don't discredit your own cases. It makes you look silly.

-I was trying to convince the wolves to shoot for mafia by making it look like it helps both us and them and bulb told me it was scummy to try to direct scum's kill. I think he saw what I was doing and tried to discredit it (although that's more a mafia tell than werewolf I guess).

Hmm... Main point of the post me thinks. The whole point is not to call me scum, but to discredit my case on you.

-connections to fuzzy. I explain this in post 153.

Yes, I say I can't read him. What a lovely case that is...

-Day 1, his icebox vote didn't appear genuine at all.

What seemed fake about it?

[Bulbazak]

I'm good for an Egg lynch. Just somebody start the domino effect, because every single time I vote him, nobody joins.

[Bulbazak]

Town

Bacde
Mac
Syryana
Goodmorning
Kuribo

Wolf

Egg

Mafia

Princess Proton

Unvote

Vote Egg

[Bulbazak]

Can we make a deal? I'll self-hammer if princess isn't lynched until there's:
A) a werewolf flip AND
B) a good case why she fits as Bo and Klick's buddy.

Why are you protecting scum?

[Bulbazak]

Because if I'm right and Egg is the wolf, we will effectively eliminate the NK.

[Bulbazak]

*sigh* And then I get left alone on Egg. Again.

Unvote

Vote Princess Proton

If Princess is not the wolf, we lynch Egg tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

It was a simple question Egg. Why so defensive?

[Bulbazak]

I just don't get why you would lynch yourself in order to save Princess. If you are town, this makes no sense, especially since you would be of greater benefit to the town than she would. Princess is a near universal scumread, and you going out of your way to protect her in such a manner is anti-town. So again I ask you: Why are you protecting scum?

[Bulbazak]

Bulb, show me where princess and syryana were confirmed as scum. A Mod post or guilty result will do just fine.

Quote where I said any of that. Hint: I didn't. I never said that Princess was confirmed as scum. I said that she was a universal scum read. I also never said anything about Syryana, so what side of your tucas are you pulling that out of? I don't care for you misrepping me or putting words in my mouth.

Thanks for at least confirming my reads, though. Tomorrow we dine on Egg!

[Bulbazak]

I just don't get why you would lynch yourself in order to save Princess. If you are town, this makes no sense, especially since you would be of greater benefit to the town than she would. Princess is a near universal scumread, and you going out of your way to protect her in such a manner is anti-town. So again I ask you: Why are you protecting scum?

Don't misrep me again.

[Bulbazak]

Kuribo, if you're caught up, what is your current assessment of the game?

[Bulbazak]

Why aren't you voting then?

[Bulbazak]

I don't see Egg as mafia, just based on how he's phrased his posts. If he is, he's very clever to try to control the NK.

[Bulbazak]

Why would Egg kill DBK though?

scum do crazy things sometimes

I explained why. Bo was riding the null line. Sure people (apparently) had him as town, but I remember it always being an uneasy read. If Bo was mafia, Egg eliminated one more of the opposing team. If Bo was town, Egg eliminated a potentially influential townie. It was a win-win.

[Bulbazak]

Still, why were you willing to vote yourself to save her? It's not the most optimal move, no matter how you look at it. What were you afraid of? Or was it that you were hoping people would take your action as a sign of your townishness?

[Bulbazak]

wow I'm seeing egg scum now

No kidding. I can't believe how completely my read on him has reversed.

I think Kuribo entering in and playing extremely town has him against the ropes. He no longer has the out (the TNE push) that he used to.

[Bulbazak]

Bulb, I am sure enough that princess and syryana are town that if lynching me could keep them alive, I was willing to do it. Two townies surviving to endgame is a guaranteed win.

But still, you have to also consider that if Princess is town, is she the type of town that you'd want to survive to endgame (since you are thinking about it). Some town reads are worth dying for, others aren't. Why is Princess the former townread. And again, nobody mentioned Syryana. Why do those 2 (Princess, Syryana) have to make it to the end and not any of the other members of the town? It seems as if you're setting up a false dilemma here ("Princess or Syryana was going to be lynched, so I offered myself up."). And as always, there are other ways to deal with the situation rather than offer yourself up as a lynch.

This town is like a brick wall. No one considers whether things can be wrong or not. "Here's my scum read. Let's lynch it"

I think that's a gross misrepresentation of the play this game.

[Bulbazak]

Your Princess assumption is crap. Nobody is going to go into Lylo and automatically assume 2 people are town, because somebody else said so. Unless those 2 are confirmed town, they are under just as much suspicion in Lylo as everyone else. Princess especially would be dangerous in Lylo if she's town, because she'd be easy mislynch fodder, and if we're right, and she's scum, you've essentially handed her the game. Even if I had a town read on Princess, there'd be no way that I'd want her in Lylo.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, here's the deal. I've lost the computer access I once had, and now I can only play from the library, am limited to 3 hrs. a day split between 3 games with no access during the weekend. What I'm saying is that I'm going to be cramming as much activity as I can in as short a span as possible, so don't get offended if I don't get to you right away.

Vote Egg

Only thing I am confident in atm. Will try to go over some things when I have the time, so new hierarchy of reads incoming. Egg's the wolf, btw, so if we can get rid off him, we have some breathing room to find the last mafia.

[Bulbazak]

Scum theater. Written, directed and produced by Bulbazak and Bo, Mafia at Law. In the first couple of quotes, you can see Bo and Bulb idly conversing about various things, namely Mac and fuzzy. Then in #138, Bo catches onto what he believes is a scumslip and votes Bulb. Bulb reacts in #144, essentially saying "it's semantics, chill". In Bo's very next post, #157, he drops the discussion and the vote altogether and never mentions it again. The whole exchange is "HEY YOU SCUMSLIPPED", "Naw man.", "OKAY". It's fake as hell. Just look at what Bo said:

Bulb's reaction to my vote was calm. Still reads null to me though, but his explanation can probably make sense, considering the werewolf situation we're in.

"Still reads null to me but it can probably make sense?" What? If Bo had really found a scumslip he wouldn't dismissed it nearly so quickly. It's all theater, ladies and gentlemen. Moving onward.

Or Bo knew that what I said

wasn't

a scumslip, since he was Mafia, and he probably knew that my play was off this game. I had answered him completely and logically, if he pushed it further, he knew he would risk waking me up game-wise, and the last thing he would need would be me latched onto him for the rest of the game (see: Egg). I've noticed that scum tend to like to keep me around for a later mislynch (But not Lylo.).

176 has "robots"? What does that even mean?

I can agree about TNE/Icebox likely partners if TNE flips scum.

Bo does it again! He focuses on tiny little shit in his partner's posting and calls him out on it. I think the best way to describe what's happening here as "anti-associative associative tells". Bo's attacking Bulba because he must; in the event Bo flips scum and someone goes back and reads ISO, a lack of mentioning Bulb could be construed as Bo ignoring his partner. Bo is keeping a hawk-eye on Bulba and calling him out on little things to avoid that very associative tell. This helps build up town cred for Bulba later; Bo's not ignoring him and is frequently attacking him, so they're probably not partners right? The catch: what Bo is attacking Bulba about. Bo's hitting him with little, almost inconsequential things, easily explained or deflected. The robots thing is some completely irrelevant shit that was easily explained by clicking the link (granted I didn't figure this out at the time either, but Bo was super aggressive about it). The scumslip was a bit more serious, but the theater is obvious when you see how quickly Bo dropped that line of attack. He tries to justify it later by claiming he "liked Bulba's reaction", but he dropped it like it's hot.

So now me pointing out a formatting error is scummy, especially since it is something I tend to do (null tell)? Or is it Bo's asking about it, because need I remind you that you did too?

Wait, hold up. He's hardly mentioned Bulb since those early attacks, yet when I ask him about the reads list, Bulb is leaning town a little? On gut? He's been watching Bulb like a hawk for a dozen pages now. There's no trajectory to his read on Bulb; he watches him intently, calls him on scumslips, yet doesn't push the attack in either case, and somehow has a slight town lean on him? No, it doesn't make any sense; it's contrived.

I'm good for towncred apparently...

Bulbazak got really quiet after Icebox's claim. He's around and posting, but his responses after the claim have been very curt. Considering how hardcore he was going after Icebox prior to the claim, his silence surprises me. No opinions on Klick? No opinions on Icebox's claim? Is the claim legit? Are the other wagons legit? I think Bulba felt he had a good case on Icebox and pushed hard. When he discovered Icebox was the seer, he freaked out and got really quiet. Why? It's the main reason I think Bulba is scum; no reason to fade off into the background after your major scumread claims a PR unless you're trying to hide.

Except for the fact that people were posting in rapidfire succession last night. Because of that, I watched to see what the general consensus on the claim was and awaited a counter claim. When I saw none coming, I went back and checked several ISOs. When I was done with that (and catching up on what I missed), I immediately unvoted and voted for Fuzzy (one of the ISOs I read through). Did you expect anything more than that? Regardless of my read on Icebox, everything drops when there is a PR claim. Period. I've only been starting to get decent reads since then. I've had mostly nulls all game. Plus, I've been apathetic, so there's that.

Here was a point I'd made that I'd forgotten about. Bulb was on Icebox really really hard on Day 1, but when the seer claim came he shut right up and ignores the hell out of the seer claim. After hyperfocussing Icebox for so long and getting a seer claim, he's got nothing? No knee-jerk reaction, no "what the fuck you're a liar", nothing. He attempts to justify it by saying he's apathetic and has few reads, but that doesn't really explain why he

ignored the claim of his top scumread entirely.

He's scum that outed a PR, so he panicked.

Hey, you know what you do when the person you're pursuing claims a PR? You drop them and wait for a counter claim, especially in an open format where we know exactly what's in the game. If you continue to push them regardless, should they flip the PR, it ruins your credibility and makes you an unnecessary distraction when trying to find scum.

Syr.

That Bulb scum read

reeks

.

@Syr: You think Bulb is scum because
- he pointed out something about 3 scum instead of 5. Which is suspicious, but I highly doubt it warrants a lynch anytime soon. Could be Mafia (only thinking Mafia has three members) or Werewolf (Only looking for three scum members).
- he avoided the topic after Icebox's claim. I saw his response and it looked solid, IMO. Bulbazak isn't a rapid-poster, and he seems like the type to drop everything when a PR claims.

Reason he's Mafia and not Wolf: he's avidly hunting for the wolf. Well, firstly, it's not unlike Bulb to try to abolish a NK before focusing on Mafia (ANY Nightless is better than something with a NK), because I know that Bulb is the type of player willing to do anything to make his wincon easier. Getting rid of the NK does also help Mafia, but also Town. (And Mafia may like leaving the NK there if they believe the Wolf will hit town that night.)

Wow, what a turnabout. First Bo was attacking Bulb over every little thing, now he's actually

defending

him from me. With very strong terms too (my read on him

reeks

). What would cause this turnabout from Bo? Let's remember the game atmosphere at the time: Autti and Klick were the hot topics of the Day (Klick eventually gets lynched). Bo has hardly mentioned Bulb most of Day 2. (CTRL-F Bulb in DBK ISO, see how much less yellow there is near the bottom) Why then, is Bo defending Bulb at this time? Answer: He can't afford to lose two partners. He's already bussing one and he can't afford to lose the other.

There's another way to look at this: Bo's partner attacks someone he has planned to use as either a possible mislynch or towncred later in the game, and he tells said partner to back off.

Piece of advice Scumyana: Don't wake the sleeping giant.

Ya' know...

If we take syryana's town reads on mac and bacde and trust those and trust that Syryana is town, that leaves bulb, goodmorning, and myself as syryana said. We are allowed one mislynch. That list would have 1 town, 1 mafia, and 1 werewolf in a perfect world. It's almost worth just lynching down that list.

Except if we do that, and we're right about you being the wolf, then you win by default, since you are at the end of the list.

I can see why people think Mac is Town but am becoming less sure about Bacde myself and Syr is still in my bottom three. Still working on reread, sorry it's been crazy for me recently.

You've had the Syryana-scum read since you replaced into the game. Can you give me a full explanation of why. I'm not experienced at reading Syryana, as I always tend to read him as town most of the time.

[Bulbazak]

I have a strong meta read that says GM is town. I've called GM's alignment correctly in every game I've been in with her. She is def. town, along with Mac. Bacde is prob. town, but in the event of Lylo, this needs to be reexamined. You are my top wolf read. Syryana is my top mafia read. Personally, I just want this game to be over with, that way I can focus on my other 2 games given my limited computer time.

[Bulbazak]

In mafia, you typically accept that your reads aren't perfect. That being said, who do you have as scum after a town flip from either syryana or myself?

You, Bacde, and Syryana are my shortlist for scum. Mac and GM are town and shouldn't be lynched. Ever.

Or Bo knew that what I said

wasn't

a scumslip, since he was Mafia, and he probably knew that my play was off this game. I had answered him completely and logically, if he pushed it further, he knew he would risk waking me up game-wise, and the last thing he would need would be me latched onto him for the rest of the game (see: Egg). I've noticed that scum tend to like to keep me around for a later mislynch (But not Lylo.).

How would he know your play was off this game that early? He's only played one game with you, not including this one. Are ye really saying Bo didn't push it because he was scared of ye? Really?

I've only played one game with Bo, true, but in that game, we were lovers, which means that Bo got to see how my mind works when scumhunting. Namely, when I had a really strong scumread on someone, Jmo in this case, I latched on and didn't let go. You should know that as well, since you replaced into Void Mountain of the Nightless Temple and read through the game, which means you saw how I tunneled the crap out of Metal Overlord when I was convinced he was scum. There is no doubt in my mind that Bo recognized I wasn't playing up to par when the game began. As for not pushing me, it probably wasn't because he was afraid of me, rather it was probably because he saw how much suspicion I was drawing, knew from my play that I was town, and knew that he could get towncred for correctly calling me so.

So now me pointing out a formatting error is scummy, especially since it is something I tend to do (null tell)? Or is it Bo's asking about it, because need I remind you that you did too?

No, I'm pointing out a series of events where Bo attacks you on silly shit and drops it. I.e. scum theater.

You dropped the robot questioning too. Does that make you scum for performing scum theater as well?

Hey, you know what you do when the person you're pursuing claims a PR? You drop them and wait for a counter claim, especially in an open format where we know exactly what's in the game. If you continue to push them regardless, should they flip the PR, it ruins your credibility and makes you an unnecessary distraction when trying to find scum.

I'm not calling you scum because you didn't push Icebox. I'm calling you scum because you had like zero reaction to their claim. No knee jerk reaction, no questioning of Icebox, nothing. Took you like four hours to even mention their name after the claim. You panicked, plain and simple and tried to vanish off the face of the earth cause you helped out a PR.

Actually, I did react to their claim:

P-Edit:

I thought them outing themselves the way they did was incredibly stupid.

Now I'm Bo's partner, is that what you're saying? Let's see what you got, giant!

That's the conclusion I'm beginning to come to. I'll have to see if I have time to do a proper ISO.

I can see why people think Mac is Town but am becoming less sure about Bacde myself and Syr is still in my bottom three. Still working on reread, sorry it's been crazy for me recently.

You've had the Syryana-scum read since you replaced into the game. Can you give me a full explanation of why. I'm not experienced at reading Syryana, as I always tend to read him as town most of the time.

Wait, wasn't I scum just a minute ago? Now you can't read me?

I was going to ask GM this anyway, as I wanted to see why she suspected you. Your post just came first chronologically. To be honest, I always initially read you as town. The only reason I've gotten such a strong scumread on you recently is due to the nature of your push on me. It doesn't feel genuine.

I have a strong meta read that says GM is town. I've called GM's alignment correctly in every game I've been in with her. She is def. town, along with Mac. Bacde is prob. town, but in the event of Lylo, this needs to be reexamined. You are my top wolf read. Syryana is my top mafia read. Personally, I just want this game to be over with, that way I can focus on my other 2 games given my limited computer time.

Now I'm his top mafia pick again
Your read on me is fake, and you're fake
Flail harder, it will not save you

You never stopped being my top mafia pick.

Going to try to get a Bacde and Syryana ISO done today (fingers crossed). Should I be lynched, look at the survivors and extrapolate from there. Egg should be tomorrow's lynch. Syryana is not the wolf, mainly because if he was, I feel as if I'd be dead already, since I think I made him really paranoid after Donner Party. Be prepared, should I die, tomorrow will be Mylo, unless the wolf actually shoots Syryana tonight. I think the wolf was aiming for mafia with Kuribo last night, since the mod announced that mafia would win if both were still alive at the end. The wolf is in panic mode and is actively searching for the other faction. Use that to your advantage. I'll try to finish my ISO of Bacde at least, but if I'm lynched before that, good luck town.

[Bulbazak]

[quote="In
Now he's got it flipped around, it was ME trying to scum-buddy you

I never said that.

[Bulbazak]

Now he's got it flipped around, it was ME trying to scum-buddy you

I never said that.

Really? Then what did you mean by this:

In mafia, you typically accept that your reads aren't perfect. That being said, who do you have as scum after a town flip from either syryana or myself?

You, Bacde, and Syryana are my shortlist for scum. Mac and GM are town and shouldn't be lynched. Ever.

Exactly what I said. I have strong town reads on Mac and GM and strong scum reads on Egg and Syryana. I'm still working out what I think about your slot, however if I'm wrong about either Egg or Syryana, you're probably the last scum.

[Bulbazak]

Lets assume that you are scum:

which of Egg/Syr is the other scum, and which one is the mislynch?

Egg would be the mislynch. Syryana is mafia, because if he was wolf, he'd probably have shot me by now.

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, I didn't have to go all the way through the ISO. Bacde's hardcore town.

@Bacde: Did you want me to answer that too, or only Mac? Let me know soon, because I don't have much computer time left in the day.

[Bulbazak]

why did he stop pushing on you?

Because of the Klick flip. There was no way that Mac would push that hard on Klick as mafia, especially since Klick was seen as town at the time.

[Bulbazak]

I did some checking. You tunnel regardless of alignment. I also checked that lovers game. I don't see how Bo could have "known your game wasn't up to par when the game started".

We shared a lover's QT where I actively posted my thoughts. Bo got a unique look at how my mind works when I scumhunt. Are you telling me that he couldn't pick up that something with my play was off, when even Mac, someone that I have never played with, could? Are you seriously trying to feed me that load of crap?

Notice how I figured out what you were talking about as soon as you mentioned the link in Autti's post. Then notice how Bo didn't, twice. He had no clue about the link. He even went back to reread the post and

still

didn't notice.(#207, #209) Then, after I explained what it meant, he'd forgotten entirely that you'd made the comment in the first place (#211). Ergo, his attack was fake as fuck.

Fine.

His

attack was fake, as expected from scum. What does that have to do with what I was saying at the time or my play in general?

A facepalm emote. Your defense is a facepalm emote? You didn't even unvote for another half an hour. Is that how long it took for you to calm your thudding heart?

I was waiting for a counter claim. Keep in mind, that half an hour was probably the busiest point in the entire game. People were posting like crazy. By the time I had seen enough to unvote, I still had to deal with preemtive posts 4 or 5 times before I could finally submit it. All of which I have told you last time you attacked me for this.

Funny how this conclusion popped up right around the time my wall calling you scum did.

That's what happens when you post a fake case: The person on the other end pays attention.

To be honest, I always initially read you as town. The only reason I've gotten such a strong scumread on you recently is due to the nature of your push on me. It doesn't feel genuine.

Not genuine, you say? Point out the not-genuine parts?

Your entire case feels forced and contrived, especially the part where you come in and say, "Hey guys, I was just looking at this WIFOM and thought, 'Let's lynch someone because of it.'". It feels more like you're putting on a show, rather than actually scumhunting.

I have a strong meta read that says GM is town. I've called GM's alignment correctly in every game I've been in with her. She is def. town, along with Mac. Bacde is prob. town, but in the event of Lylo, this needs to be reexamined. You are my top wolf read. Syryana is my top mafia read. Personally, I just want this game to be over with, that way I can focus on my other 2 games given my limited computer time.

Now I'm his top mafia pick again
Your read on me is fake, and you're fake
Flail harder, it will not save you

You never stopped being my top mafia pick.

Hmm. You sure bout that? Let's look at your reads.

Spoiler: Day 1

Sorry for the delay. Had a podcast that I had to do.

Reads:

Town:
Bacde
Syryana
Icebox

Null/Town:
Goodmorning
Klick

Null:
Thenewearth
Does Bo Know

Null/Scum:
Mac

Scum:
Egg
Autti
Fuzzybutternut

Feel free to ask questions. I may even answer them.

Spoiler: Day 3

Town

Bacde
Mac
Syryana
Goodmorning
Kuribo

Wolf

Egg

Mafia

Princess Proton

Unvote

Vote Egg

Huh. That's weird. I could swear that's my name, right there in your town column.

Nice misrep. Read the original post again. In it, you accused me of changing reads WITHIN THE POST. I told you that I did not, and that WITHIN THE POST you had never stopped being my top mafia pick. And now you want to change it to being within the game itself instead of the entire post? I don't think so. If you're going to even try to misrep me, you're going to have to do better than that, and make it harder for me to refute you.

Also Syryana, you say that I am a mafia read, and not a wolf read. If that's so, who do you think is the wolf, and why is your vote not on them? Because if you truely believe what you say, then you are actually working against the town right now by voting me.

[Bulbazak]

GM, where is your Syryana case?

For those not on the Egg wagon: Look at Egg's interactions with Kuribo. Notice how Egg thinks Kuribo is scum. Look at the mod's post about who wins in the event of a tie. Do the math.

[Bulbazak]

For those not on the Egg wagon: Look at Egg's interactions with Kuribo. Notice how Egg thinks Kuribo is scum. Look at the mod's post about who wins in the event of a tie. Do the math.

Explain this to me like I'm five. I'm not following

Spoiler: Kuribo vs. Egg

Just lynch bulb tomorrow.

Not princess. Princess is still confirmed not wolf from the bet.

And syryana is confirmed town from Mod interactions.

This town has no excuse for losing. We're still in a very good spot.

While bacde looks town, don't let him slip into a fake "confirmed" territory. He could still be scum.

Goodmmorning might be scum.

DO NOT FORGET that Kuribo is thene and probably mafia.

That's pretty much all I got. Sorry I never caught up today.

Holy shit


egg says he only has read two of my posts

PROBABLY BOTH POSTS WHERE I QUESTIONED HIS VOTE

ive posted 56 times on a number of subjects and you havent read them? except the posts where i directly addressed you?

might as well forget getting my slot lynched, ive only been mislynched twice in five fucking years. And you aint half as good as CKD or GreyICE

gotta at least pretend to scumhunt dude

Bulb, show me where princess and syryana were confirmed as scum. A Mod post or guilty result will do just fine.

Kuribo, I'm not caught up. I don't have nearly as much free time as I did when I first started playing mafia five years ago. I've seen the same thing happen to CKD and CTD. Greyice not so much, but still. It can happen. That's why I hardly play anymore and if I do it's only one game. But trust me when I say after roughly 200 games I can catch the tells that are 99% accurate like syryana's and princess's. If they both survive to endgame, we can't lose. That's why I desperately want this princess lynch to not happen.

Your tells are bullshit hope that helps



and i was referring to the fact that theyre the only two scum to ever get me lynched as town, so its good that you realize youre not as good as them

See, you just dropped another nearly bulletproof tell. i wish DGB was here so she could tell you how accurate it is that "I DONT HAVE MUCH FREE TIME" is as a scumtell.

and youre in the same position benmage was in against me in wire mafia. he had designated ActionDan as the mislynch but knew that wasnt gonna happen when i replaced into the slot. so he tried to push me based on his old cases.


i fucking verbally deatroyed him for twenty pages


try and mislynch me, fucker. ive been guarding my gate a long time.

THIS SITE IS LITTERED WITH THE BONES OF THE SCUM FUCKS THAT TRIED TO LYNCH ME

THEIR SPIRITS HOWL IN ANGUISH

THEIR FLESH CONSUMED BY WORMS

THEIR SOULS CONDEMNED TO BLACKEST HELL


JOIN THEM IF YOU DARE, FUCKER, BUT WHEN YOU GET TO THE DEAD QT, TELL THEM KURIBO SENT YOH

Dont hide now beetlejuice, you werent too fucking busy to read when i memtioned your name


i had way more to read than you and im caught up


its only getting worse from here you scum fuck

unvote, vote kuribo

Cuz why the fuck not.

No one wants to lynch me to leave princess and syryana alive. No one wants to lynch bulb. I don't think goodmorning has been voted.

Wouldn't it be hilarious to watch kuribo piss and moan that he's being mislynched and then we see his scum flip.

I'm sure it won't happen because princess is being lynched but it would be insanely funny.

By the way DGB always says I'm scum when I'm town. Then again she says everyone is scum at one point throughout each game.

unvote, vote kuribo

Cuz why the fuck not.

No one wants to lynch me to leave princess and syryana alive. No one wants to lynch bulb. I don't think goodmorning has been voted.

Wouldn't it be hilarious to watch kuribo piss and moan that he's being mislynched and then we see his scum flip.

I'm sure it won't happen because princess is being lynched but it would be insanely funny.

By the way DGB always says I'm scum when I'm town. Then again she says everyone is scum at one point throughout each game.

Im also the only person on site that has a 100% accuracy reading DGB over five years.


i can smell your fear.

IT CAN REPLY TO ME BUT IT CANNOT READ

NOW PUT THE FUCKING LOTION ON ITS SKIN OR ELSE IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN

Other than egg being scummier to me than princess, about the same as i mentioned before.

bacde stronger town read
mac and syr may as well be masons together
princess disappearing again doesnt look good to me
pretty sure youre town
not quite sure about goodmorning. leaning townish i think

egg and princess for death first. at least one scum there.

Okay, admittedly not as adversarial as I thought it was. Egg essentially starts posting fluff when Kuribo lays in on him. I think he tried to pick a fight with Kuribo and called him scum, but saw that he couldn't win it. Whether he thought Kuribo was actually scum or not, I can probably see Egg killing him just to keep Kuribo from tunneling him today.

But I felt that Egg reacted because of a mafia read, due to this:

Seven to bed, six will rise. As a friendly reminder, this game comes with special endgame mechanics.

If the mafia and werewolves ever make up equal numbers, with no protown roles left alive, then mafia win. Mafia also win if a day phase begins with one mafia, one werewolf, and one protown.

That would have been a nice kick in the pants for Egg, and I think he killed Kuribo because of this. In summation: He thought Kuribo was mafia. He saw he couldn't kill him. The mod reminded him that mafia would win in the event of a tie. He killed Kuribo in order to prevent that.

Bulb, if I was wolf who was going to kill the mafia at night, I probably wouldn't be repeating over and over in thread that I think that person is mafia, especially when I'm not even pushing that lynch.

Don't try to WIFOM me. I've already explained why you'd kill a Kuribo mafia read. You knew you wouldn't be able to lynch him, and the mod's reminder spurred you into action.

Bacde, bulb thinks I'm wolf. Mafia wins in unusual ways in this game. Bulb is suggesting that I am wolf who saw the Mod's post about how mafia can win and shot Kuribo trying to kill the mafia because I was very sure kuribo was mafia. See the first part of this post for my response to that.

I see you're working on your subtlety. Are you saying that I'm mafia or wolf?

Also see how willing I have been to die to keep town alive (the princess lynch and my plan to lynch down syryana's list).

Again, WIFOM. You could have simply offered yourself up as a sacrifice, knowing that nobody would actually kill you. That does not earn you towncred.

No. The only problem is if he's wolf and is lynched tomorrow, mafia wins. I'd actually love to lynch the wolf today to give us two chances at mafia. But if we mislynch today, tomorrow needs to be about the mafia. Wait. Shit. Lemme check something.

6 alive. Mislynch=5. NK=4 (2t,1m,1w). Lynch wolf=2t/1m.
6 alive. Mislynch=5. NK=4 (2t,1m,1w) lynch mafia=2t/1w +NK. Wolf wins.

So yeah. Scratch that. Tomorrow is about the wolf if we mislynch today. And I have confidence that this town will lynch Bulb without me in that situation. I don't want to speculate too much past that but yeah. I'm cool with me/bulb in either order and I'm pretty confident that's the way it will play out.

This is so incredibly fake. This is essentially him putting on a show. "Crap, I may not have actually considered the state of the game. Here, let me work it out in plain view of everyone. See: I'm just as blind as you are. I must be town." Not buying it.

[Bulbazak]

Why would egg have killed DBK Bulba?

vote Bacde

I explained that earlier. Bo was a tricky slot to read. If he ended up being mafia, Egg took out another member of the mafia team. If Bo was town, Egg eliminated a potentially useful town player. It was a win-win.

[Bulbazak]

Bulb, what do you mean by "whether he thought kuribo was scum or not"?

It means that even if you changed your mind, you would have still killed Kuribo just to keep him from tunneling you today. I don't think this is the case, though.

And why would I be worried about kuribo tunneling me with all of the other people that were saying I was scum?

You mean me? Yeah, because look at how successful

I've

been... The point is that Kuribo could have actually accomplished something by tunneling you. He was dangerous. Therefore, he had to go.

[Bulbazak]

But kuribo wasn't guaranteed to tunnel me the way you have been. If I just wanted one less vote on me, i'd have gone after you. And if I was wolf panicking because there's still mafia alive, and I've been pushing your lynch, doesn't that imly that I probably legitimately have thought you were scum this whole time? If I was wolf and my mind was going the way you think it was last night, it would have made more sense to shoot you than kuribo.

Except I've been largely ineffective at pushing your lynch and have been seen as scummy by many of the players. Why waste a shot on me? Meanwhile, Kuribo had the potential to push your lynch hard and actually accomplish something, and there was no way he was going to get lynched as he was being strongly read as town.

Also, am I a mafia or a wolf read for you?

I gave my reasons for Bulba wolf re the DBK push/calling me town afterwards and I felt it was possibly targetted at setting me up.

How would that be setting you up?

yes you are making me super paranoid but it's not just the paranoia it's the entrance in today where you went "thanks wolf I was thinking kuribo-scum" <-- if Bulba believes egg targetted kuribo because he thought he was maf then logically he should be thinking the same about you (this is further why bulba is scum imo but I'm not sure why)

That actually crossed my mind, which was why I had Bacde listed as potential scum at the beginning of the day. It was also why I felt the need to ISO him. I got about halfway through his ISO before having my townread so completely reaffirmed that I stopped.

[Bulbazak]

Your post heavily implied that you thought I was mafia.

[Bulbazak]

But if you are wolf, you'd be scumhunting as well, which means that you would only be looking for mafia. As such, any wolf reads you'd have as a wolf would be fake. Therefore, since you read me as wolf, and since I believe you to be the wolf, it does not make sense for you to want to NK me as a scum read if you are also faking a wolf read on me. I'm either one or the other. Wolf or mafia. Yet, somehow, you seem to be unwilling to make a decision on my alignment. It is convenient for you to refer to me as mafia when WIFOMing about a NK, but yet when pressured, you take back that read. I think you're backtracking, that your reads are fake, and that you are the wolf.

Come on, try to backtrack again. I dare you. Because when it comes to logic and language, I can run circles around you.

[Bulbazak]

There goes my 4 for 4...

Currently going through ISOs.

@Bacde: Why didn't you vote for the longest time upon replacing in, even though you had 2 good suspects? Why'd you take your vote off of Princess, and then never revote, even though you were sure she was scum? Why are you convinced that Mac is town (I always throw all of my reads out the window and reexamine everything during Lylo.)?

@Syryana: Give me an update on your thoughts and reads.

I'll probably have more questions later. Currently a third of the way through Mac's ISO. Any questions for me? We need to nail the wolf today, or at least have a firm grasp on the situation.

[Bulbazak]

I think there are still 2 questions you haven't answered, Bacde.

[Bulbazak]

2) Gut mostly? He even voted me at the end of the day yesterday which I felt was legit because I was doping around and not sure who the scum was

We kinda need more than gut at this stage. Why do you feel that Mac's actions yesterday were genuine and not fake and the actions of an impatient scum?

My thoughts are that we should no-lynch. My reads are scattered to fuck and gone right now and I'm not rereading tonight.

I'll probably no lynch as well later on. However, we have a nice full day phase to try to sort everything out. Let's talk.

AW HELL NO

things that I think:

Syr is town

and it's between bacde & bulba

and I think it's bulba based on his early chat with fuzzy

Getting back into the same old mindset I see. I'd like to talk to you about that discussion with Fuzzy as well. There are some things that I noticed when going through your ISO that I want to ask you about.

why have you turned on me and not syr as well?

I don't like the way this is phrased.

What motivation would bulba have to kill G_M?

I'd actually like to hear the answer to this.

[Bulbazak]

What motivation would bulba have to kill G_M?

mafia hunting?

How is that? I had a strong meta read on GM that said otherwise (incorrect, I know, but still...). If I was going to shoot someone I thought was mafia, it would have been Syryana.

[Bulbazak]

Why no questions?

I was sorting through some last minute ISO things on you. Mostly, though, I was catching up on another game. Two really important ones came to mind, though.

1.)You started crafting a case early d1 on a partnership between Fuzzy and myself, yet when you would attack someone with it, you always attacked me and layed off Fuzzy. Why?

2.) On d4 you started on a big kick about how the DBK NK was supposed to be me setting you up. Yet, if you remember correctly, I called you town immediately on d3 and explained that it was due to the Klick mafia flip, not the Bo NK like you were trying to push. What about the Bo NK suggests that it was to set you up, and why did you wait until a day later to bring it up, especially since my town read on you had nothing to do with that flip?

What motivation would bulba have to kill G_M?

I've an idea, but it's pretty WIFOM-y. I'll put it out there if you all want, but I'm not sure it's a good use of our time to discuss WIFOM-y things like this.

Now's the perfect time. What do you got?

I'll probably no lynch as well later on. However, we have a nice full day phase to try to sort everything out. Let's talk.

In any other situation I would agree with you. However, this being MyLo, I think if we're going to no-lynch we should put off the discussion until tomorrow. It saves time for town in that we have less suspects to analyze and more importantly it will make life difficult for the wolf toNight (no current reads means wolf will have less info and consequently a much harder time fucking with our minds).

If we're going to lynch toDay, I'm all for discussing right up till the last second. However, in my opinion it would be counterproductive to lay all our cards on the table then no-lynch.

I'm all for lynching today if we are convinced that we've figured it out. We just need to realize that we do not have to and can no lynch if we are still unable to figure things out. This is a day phase to sort through as much information as possible in order to make the best decision possible. It's true that more information may help the wolf, but it also may prove to be a thorn in his side if there's too much for him to properly sort through. I for one want to make sure that if the wolf decides to kill me, the decision is more likely to hurt him than to actually help him. Besides, I think I might have an idea who it is, and if I'm correct, now is the time to sort through everything we have and ask the correct questions in order to discover the truth and make the right decision.

[Bulbazak]

I'll let you know when Mac answers. I need to finish going through your's and Syryana's ISOs. Will probably do that tonight via 3DS.

[Bulbazak]

Why did you kill GM? 1) She was the only person that outright buddied you yesterDay and 2) killing her generates nice WIFOM about me, given the case she was supposedly making against me. 1) is helpful in the most WIFOM sense; it makes it less reasonable for you to be the killer. Why, when at L-1 for a great duration yesterDay, would you, having made it past the Day and given an Egg townflip, kill your only supporter? It doesn't seem reasonable that you would, which gives you an excellent reason to do so. Second, GM's death has the added benefit of throwing suspicion onto your main detractor: me. At Day's end, she was promising a case on me. Why not knock her out of the game, as it makes others look worse and you look better for doing so?

Why would I, as wolf, kill GM, who I had a town read on, when we were entering into Mylo with 1 Mafia member left, which threatened a possible win? I would be more likely to kill you, since I had read you as Mafia. From that perspective, a GM NK makes no sense, but again, as you said, that's all WIFOM.

when Klick flips mafia, Bulba clears me as town because of the way I pushed Klick to the point where it couldn't be bussing. he doesn't think I'm a wolf because of the way I pushed fuzzy to the point where it couldn't be bussing. correct? I think I am. now we get into mylo and he decides to bring up that I pushed him over fuzzy early in the game. why didn't he bring this up earlier? why has he left it until now? I feel like his reads are fake

I thought that your Fuzzy push was harder than it was. It was only on reviewing your ISO that I realized that you more or less left him alone, and that he ignored you for the most part. As for the reason I didn't bring this up earlier, that has to do with the fact that we're in Mylo, and I always reevaluate all of my reads via ISO during Mylo and Lylo.

[Bulbazak]

Bacde, why do you think that Mac is town?

[Bulbazak]

What are your current reads, Bulb?

Still a little confused, especially after finishing the ISOs, as I can see reasons everybody could be the wolf. However, I still don't think your play matches wolf intent, even though I hated your pushes yesterday. I still feel that you would have NK'd me as wolf due to Donner Party paranoia. Bacde's early game is so town and genuine it's not funny. It is true that he townread Fuzzy, but he quickly discerned Fuzzy's alignment and explained his thought process later, all of which matches and is consistent when you go back to look at it. His play yesterday kinda makes sense from a hopeless town perspective as well. That leaves Mac, the one player that my gut has been screaming "wolf" at me all day. I think I have a pretty good case, but I need the time to put it together, and I don't have the time or patience to do it tonight.

Any other questions for me?

[Bulbazak]

Mac, your theatrics are falling on deaf ears. Although I would like to hear from Syryana and get his impressions.

[Bulbazak]

Syryana, do you have any questions for me?

[Bulbazak]

Sorry. I've been working on getting my own game up and running, as well as some other personal stuff. I haven't had a lot of times for my games in general. I have a tutoring appointment I have to keep in a couple of hours, but I should be back around 6ish.

[Bulbazak]

I've just gotten so busy lately, and I know that the case will take awhile to type up, that I just keep putting it off. Anyway, here's an abridged version. Some of my early points still apply, but they've been discussed endlessly, so I'm not going to include them here. You can ISO me or ask me if you can't remember them.

1.) Remember early on where I said Mac wasn't the wolf because of how he pushed on Fuzzy? Well, after going through his ISO, he actually didn't push Fuzzy as hard as I thought he did. He voted Fuzzy twice. The first time was RVS, which was where he kept his vote for awhile. When he talked about a Fuzzy/me partnership, that was not focused so much on Fuzzy as it was me. Even though he was voting for Fuzzy, it was my lynch that he was trying to push instead, even going as far as to unvote my supposed partner just to OMGUS me. His second vote on Fuzzy was after Fuzzy made a transparent scum move, essentially making it a bus to avoid suspicion later on. At the end of the day, Mac's vote was not on Fuzzy, but Klick, an opportunity that was opened up for him by Bacde, and a great way to avoid bussing his partner.

2.) Fuzzy hardly interacts with Mac at all, and for the most part, ignores him. The longest conversation the 2 of them have starts here. Fuzzy answers Mac's first question, but completely ignores the followup. As for Fuzzy's list of reads, he completely forgets Mac. All of this is significant, because in 1337 Fuzzy implicated Mac, his partner, via some last minute WIFOM. I can see Mac telling Fuzzy not to do so again, and Fuzzy ignoring him in order to not repeat that mistake.

3.) Remember when Mac was attacking me as scum d2, mainly because of my scum read on him and reasoning? He was hardcore on me for being scum and then said this:

That's cool, your plays been pretty off this game anyway.

Here's the thing. If Mac thought I was scum, then he should have been thinking that this was just part of my strategy as scum, in much the same way Syryana did, especially since he was pushing me on my play. He really didn't have much meta-wise as far as scum games, since 1333 was my only completed scum game at the time (Donner Party wouldn't finish until 3 days later.). His only frame of reference, then, were my town games, especially the one he played with me. Therefore, if he thought I was scum, why did he make a comment saying my play was off, which would suggest I was town rather than scum?

4.) This one's a minor point, but I thought it was worth mentioning since I noticed it when going through the ISO. Starting about d3, Mac starts saying "Wolf" a lot. I know what you're thinking, "Of course he'd say wolf a lot, we were looking for the last wolf.". But Mac does so almost to the point of overcompensation. Seriously, search Wolf in Mac's ISO and watch the end of the game light up like a Christmas tree. I've gotten the feeling that some other posts during the last 2 day phases are him overcompensating as well.

5.) Mac's DBK point confused me. He waits 2 days until after Bo's death, and then randomly brings it up as a point against me, saying that Bo was obviously me trying to set him up, even though I said d3 that I didn't think Mac was mafia because of

Klick's

flip. I honestly have no idea why Mac was even trying to implicate me using Bo, and it seemed like a stretch to do so, as no one should have logically came to that conclusion about the purpose of Bo's death. Seriously. My theory: "Bo was an unknown and could have been scum or potentially strong town. The kill was a win-win.". Mac's theory: "Bo was killed because Bulb was trying to frame me! Even though Bulb said that I was town because of Klick, and Bo's death was never considered. But Bo was killed because I was being framed guys!"

6.) Mac seemed overeager to agree with people toward the end of the game. He even agreed with me on the Egg case, even when other people called me out on it for the case being crap. Nothing makes me more nervous near end game than seeing "This is a reasonable enough point I think.".

Personally, I'm getting tired of this game and am ready to end it. Every fiber of my being is telling me that Mac is the last wolf, so I'm going to trust my instincts on this one.

Vote Mac

If I'm wrong, and the wolf is Syryana, then congratulations Syr, you deserve it, because I still can't see you not killing me n3 after Donner Party.

P-edit: Just noticed your new avatar Syr. I like it a lot.

[Bulbazak]

Like I said, good game Syryana. I really was not into this game like I normally am (I blame starting Donner Party at the same time. I got the 2 games confused, as both were my first time playing with Syr, and then GM had to replace in as well.), and that wasn't helped by me getting incredibly busy near the end and just not wanting to spend the allotted time needed to do the work. I'm cutting down on the games I'm in after this. Not sure how long it's going to take to get my head put back together. No hard feelings Egg.

[Bulbazak]

Just got done reading all of the QTs. Sounds like you guys had a lot of fun in the dead QT. Sorry I missed it, but I do tend to be popular (Except for that one time in 1337 when I was the JK. Curse you Mac!). Yeah, I think that this game was the beginning of the burnout I've started suffering from more and more recently. I'm going to try to limit the new games I take on and focus more on the ones I'm in now. Hopefully I can make a comeback before long, but I doubt I'll ever get back to between 3-5 games at a time. I've actually gotten busy lately and can't devote as much time as I used to.

I saw your hydra comment Bo. I'm actually giving hydras a shot recently. If our playstyles don't clash too much, I wouldn't mind taking a shot at hydraing together.

Again, good game all! Thanks for hosting such a wonderful experience Zab! Sorry I couldn't enjoy it more.

[Bulbazak]

It's ok syr, I take getting NKd my first day as a compliment

I'm always shocked if I get NK'd the first day. Scum doesn't seem to go for my death during the night phase.