Open 493 - Jungle Republic. (Game Over - Werewolf Victory)

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/confirm and bookmarking

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Hi fuzzy we meet again

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1) I'm sexy. Werewolves aren't sexy. Mafias are sexy too but not as sexy as me. Therefore I'm town.
2) klick!

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^ That's Gif. One head.

Got an important RQS.

1. Are you Town? Give three sentences to explain your reasoning.
2. Who would you like to be Mafia with in this game?

1. I am town. I know it because I received a town role pm. I know it because I have confidence in my ability to read and not misinterpret my role message. I know it because of how I will play this game, which is to search for Mafia and werewolves and to keep the town alive.
2. I'd have liked to be mafia with Mac But wishes are for fishes.

-Rem.

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Are we using a new QT Gif? Or the old one?

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@Egg: that's Rem for you!
VOTE: Syryana

This guy doesn't even know what airport is.

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Hi Mac.

@Bo You said you "kinda" voted me for the RQS response. "Kind of" implies more than one reason, what was the other reason?

-Rem

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Similarly, why did Fuzzy get defensive about it? Being easily recognizable as scum shouldn't be a problem for him if he were town, it's actually advantageous for town him.

-Rem

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For the record, 1337 is why Fuzzy will be caught in 3 pages if scum.

You do realize I just won a game as scum, when my partner was lynched early game, right?

I'm not as bad as scum as you think I am.

[Icebox]

Why is Bo not town, fuzzy?

I'll be back tomorrow after my birthday party. cya!

-G

[Icebox]

I was the only one to take Klick's question seriously and responded to it as such. Get it out because it won't taint anything. this is stifling early discussion and that's anti-town.

-Rem

[Icebox]

I would like to interject, and state that your method of questioning in this case is will not work on this hydra, I am an outlier. If I were scum, I would have ignored the question and only let my partner answer, so it's the opposite for us. I make of point of calling myself town as town.

Examples:
Rem town.
Rem scum.

In my town game, I call myself town repeatedly, to the point of supersaturation.
In my scum game, I never even mention that I'm town. And even warn the player the whole scum team could hammer.

[Icebox]

*-Rem

Sorry for ruining this mode of investigation.

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Might work on the others though.

-Rem.

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Except I make a point of doing so, to defend myself as town and have put work into it.

[Icebox]

It's not the same as saying "I wouldn't do this as scum" It's an investment of time, purposely constructed for a reason. It's your choice to believe me or not. I will continue to scum hunt, regardless. Those that know me, recognize that I am an outlier in such cases on this site.

-Rem

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Can't stay town, DBK, I am town.

-Rem

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Or we could continue discussion instead, which is my focus.

I answered the question seriously and honestly. It's a stronger case than usual because I put an investment into it, I am saying I would go out of my way to respond to it as town and go out of my way not to respond to it as scum. I am saying it's more than likely the results were skewed because of this.

Pedit: The percentage of being town to scum is higher, by chance I will be town more than scum. So it increases my win percentage, it's sort of cheap, but I recognize that this will only be a problem once enough people on this site get to know me. But that's not the case so far.

-Rem

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You

do

realize that's not why he thinks the hydra is scum, right?

Then what is it? All I see from him is calling us scummy for hydra dissonance, which can happen to a lot of hydras with two different playstyle regardless of alignment.

I would like to hear your own interpretation of zack's post. If it's not for hydra stuff, why is he calling us scummy?

[Icebox]

It's hilarious.

Still ROFLing.

So why is Zach's hydra thing ten times scummier than anything you've seen this game? You

do

realize that's not why he thinks the hydra is scum, right?

@Bo: meh. At least, I countered that exact bolded stuff so my post is still useful. Also, were fuzzy scum in those games?

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Wtf where did that quote came from

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Gah I totally forgot about this game. Let me catch up.

-G

[Icebox]

Catchup time.

Spoiler: Why do you have a lot of ppl you want to RVS in this quote?

SO MANY PEOPLE I WANT TO RVS!

VOTE: Mac
For having the shortest name on the playerlist.

What about Egg? Same amount of letters AND first alphabetically.

Hello, Egg. Have I ever played with you before?

Yes.

Got an important RQS.

1. Are you Town? Give three sentences to explain your reasoning.
2. Who would you like to be Mafia with in this game?

1. Yes. I got a Role PM. It says town. I'm town.
2. Fuzzy because he's always obvtown. And zach.

Also syryana is town. I'd prefer not to get into why.

I think you should tell us why. TEAM FOUND.

Hi Remembrance

Got an important RQS.

1. Are you Town? Give three sentences to explain your reasoning.
2. Who would you like to be Mafia with in this game?

1. I am confirmed town.
2. Anyone but Fuzzy. HE JUST LOST US 1337 AND HE WASN'T EVEN ALIVE! Now

that's

talent.

VOTE: Fuzzy

I'm not bitter.

Spoiler: This kind of post make me want to bring rebel out of my heart but last time I saw the post like this, it was from town.

For reasons I'd rather not disclose right now.

Spoiler: Uhh... What?

Tell me what Klick has done to

not

be scummy.

If you had more than one reason as to why you thought he was town, why didn't you say them all together? Now you're just making excuses for him.

Spoiler: Typical TNE-Town meta.

1) Because I am. Are you not going to believe me? Damn you if you don't

Spoiler: I forgot why I quoted this post, but I'm pretty sure it'll come back to me later.

Remembrance is using a trust tell, and I highly doubt he wants to break it on this game.

Off-topic, @Rem: Please refrain from using trust tells in the future, for the fun of yourself and others. You will always be killed early as town and be lynched Day 1 as scum if you keep that play. We also don't want someone whose alignment is basically confirmed.

Spoiler: :facepalm:

Thene, why RVS vote on someone who is already a popular wagon? Are you pretending to have posted without reading anything and you hadn't noticed the wagon?

There was a wagon?

Spoiler: For some reason, Rem got his scumdar tingling in this post. He haven't explained to me yet, though.

I'm considering the trust thing a null tell. He set it up probably hoping to get a bunch of town games in a row. I believe he's break it first time he gets a scum role, which could be here.

I think Klick nailed the werewolves. Fuzz and Icebox are the two scummiest looking players aside from the RQS, so that pushes it over the top. I don't like Fuzz because of his "I'm super good as scum, I promise!". I just plain don't like hydras. The partner blame looks like every scum hydra I've seen. I'm good with either vote.

Vote:Fuzz

Why is Klick town?

I don't want to vote for TNE. That looks like it could pick up. He doesn't feel scummy to me.

Spoiler: @Fuzzy: What makes you think that Bo didn't participated in the game yet?

Mmhmm.
Now, would you like to start participating in the game, or are you just going to sheep your way to victory?

Spoiler: >I do not like this post.

Since when does my play

not

make your gut feel bad?

Spoiler: This looks lazy as hell.

I said it was for fuzzy only. Y u look at it?

Anyways...

Town: Klick

Scum/Werewolf/Whatever: Bo, Icebox, Bulba

Leaning Scum/Werewolf/Whatever: fuzzy

Null: Everyone else

Reads so far:

Town (Not in particular order):
Klick (His line of thought is town, even though I disagree with the whole RQS stuff.)
Bo (I'm pretty sure if he was scum, he would gladly share his "stuff" when got called out for it.)
TNE (For now, meta)
Syry (His post #146 tells all.)
Icebox

Null (Will spend more time on them later when I have some more time. Their posts are BIG)
Mac
Autti
BEF (Did this guy ever posted in here?)
Egg
Bulba (My read on him probably will be heavily dependent on fuzzy's alignment.)

Scum (I want to lynch this guy)
Fuzzy (his posts in general gives me bad vibe. So you might as well as call it gut-scum.)
zack (This is Rem's idea.)

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fuzzy

If you don't like this formatting, please tell me so. I won't use it anymore.

[Icebox]

I know it's an RVS post. I just want to know why you want to RVS a lot of ppl.

[Icebox]

Not really. Without that meta, TNE is lazy null for me. I'll probably figure more stuff out later in the game.

[Icebox]

Notes before I leave for the day:

Autti's #176 has robots in it.

Still not wild about Mac's play, but at least he's starting to participate.

Due to #188, should TNE flip scum, Icebox is likely his partner.

Just like how you're scum if fuzzy flip scum.

[Icebox]

I'm not so sure I like how you make a couple of points against thene but still call him town for the meta tell.

Those are his town meta.

[Icebox]

Icebox, show me three examples of him doing that as town and three NOT doing it as scum and I'll unvote.

I'll get to the towngames later, but 3 scum metas from him.

Micro 129
Micro 138
Newbie 1331

In these scum games, TNE is actually more serious/try-hard/whatever than he normally is.

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@Mod: V/LA till 4/27.

-G

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I'm completely swamped right now. I should be able to participate in discussion tomorrow. But no, just because GIF V/LA's doesn't mean I'm going to.

-Rem

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The reason Gif didn't know what I meant when I stated I suspected Zach, is because I just put a reads list up with no comments in the hydra chat.
I've been busy the last few days and unable to do much more than provide a reads list and make minimal comments.

I'll explain this before I go. I suspect Zach because his perspective is too narrow and he's entirely too comfortable with the situation.

-Rem

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@Bulbazak: post 110 why didn't you respond to this post by egg?

Unvote

Vote Thenewearth

You would think that calling someone obv. town would be based on something more substantial than gut. If you check out Bo's reads, which you criticized, you'll notice he has a very definite reason for Klick.

You were one of the 3 scum reads I wanted to see more of, and what I'm seeing is not genuine.

Can you elaborate on this?

Also seeing Icebox as more likely to be scum

. As you can see above, I inadvertently created a reaction test, and they didn't bite.

You need to expand on this. For obvious reasons. Having read 232: I still remain utterly confused.

Forgot to do this:

VOTE: Zachattack

-Rem

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1. This is what bothers me. You said my post was forced, yet when egg did the same, you said nothing.
2. That's not what I wanted to know, you stated TNE did not respond how he was supposed to, explain how he reacted and why it was scummy. Unless you mean, that you didn't have anything, and were just pressing him.
3. There are 12 players in this game. How does 3 constitute "everyone." Your accusation requires no other response than "no" because that's what it amounts to.

[Icebox]

-Rem But you guys can probably tell us apart by now.

As for the slip, not seeing it. Can you explain Fuzzy?

[Icebox]

Actually. Why would Fuzzy vote someone and then ask people if it was a scum slip? Wouldn't you determine it was a scum slip first and then vote them once it determined?

[Icebox]

1. You said my first post was forced.
2. Theory. That discussion goes no where.
3. Okay. Thanks for clarifying.

Misrep attempts? Why would I ask you for clarification if I was trying to misrep you. -_-) I wouldn't ask you if I was.

[Icebox]

Though you aren't absolutely correct in what you accused me of.

Similarly, while you have noted my "misrepping attempts" I will have noted your defensiveness and your feeling threatened at being pressed to reveal your opinions. Isn't that annoying? Because you can't respond to it, because there's no way to prove it either way until the game ends. *sigh*

-Rem

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I've already responded to that. I don't see the egg town. He is #2 as far as calling himself town all the time.

-Rem

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Requesting that Zachattack be prodded

I will explain why I think Klick is town, I do not want to discussion to flounder like this.

Regardless of the veracity of my trust tell, he bought it. As you know, there is absolutely no advantage gained by accepting another player is town based on a trust tell as either a werewolf or mafia. Therefore, the fact that he did so, points to him likely being town. Many have expressed the idea that he is town, but have had some difficulty expressing why. This to me, is why I think he is likely town. I hope that being read as town does not affect your performance Klick and hope you can participate with us soon since the game has stagnated.

Is there anything anyone wants to discuss?

-Rem

[Icebox]

*Unless of course we're on the same team.

-Rem

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Because I didn't want to present my argument as stronger than it actually is. There are flaws in it.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Autti, are you new to mafia?

-Rem

[Icebox]

You can't remember why you voted someone and never explained why in the first place. Saying someone isn't genuine, without pointing out why to the rest of us is not helpful.

-Rem

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Furthermore you're using the mind-projection fallacy. So, yeah.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Bleh, that came out more antagonistic than I wanted it to. Sorry Bulb.

@Zach, if you are town, please don't say you're better after a flip. Day 2 is my favorite, I suck day one (Unless I replace in, which somehow seems to help a lot). I'm trying to get better at reading people early. Nacho told me, that learning to read people at all stages of the game is a very good idea, because you'll get steam rolled by more experienced players if you don't. Don't just pack it in and say "Well, if you let me live I can be a huge asset" just hunt now and worry about how bad you are at it later, try to make things happen. people will reveal their alignments with their actions and after flips, but if they don't take action, how are we supposed to hunt? Bo has somewhat of the right idea, he's pressuring people to do things and that's perhaps one of the most helpful things you can do any day as town, play the game and make scum play it too.

The mind projection fallacy by the way is holding yourself as the standard, that is assuming, everyone thinks or acts like you. A better way to say it is putting yourself in someone else's shoes without considering where the shoes have been. We have very different styles of play Bulbazak, and this is especially odd considering your wiki points out that you've been developing a style of play the works for both alignments. Do you think I have and have the same philosophy as you? It's quite clear our methodologies are different and that's probably a good thing.

@Mac, feel better.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Why are you assuming you're the lynch today. (?_?)/ I agree with you on Fuzzy though. But for somewhat different reasons (he's a whole lot more stubborn as town) But I still want more information which is why my vote isn't there yet. Thank you for talking and actually saying something that puts you in this game instead of outside of it.

And no, I'm not trying to make it into your fault. I'm town this game, so I have no reason to.

I liked this reaction a lot. I'll think on it. GIF should be back soon.

UNVOTE: ZachAttack

-Rem

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Stubborn like a bull.

[Icebox]

Oh. There was a page.

The post above was for DBK's asking how town fuzzy is like.

[Icebox]

Requesting prod of FreshManIsCoolman

Freshmaniscoolman has already been prodded. He has 36 hours from my last post to come back to the game before I start looking for a replacement.

Reads:

Town:
Klick
DBK (Consistency in strategy, active poster, catching the same things I am and posting them faster than I can)
TNE From GIF. I have serious difficulty reading him.

Lean town:
Zach: For post, full of paranoia. Scum know things, town don't! That's why they're always, always paranoid.
Syrana: Whilst hard working, there are two factions in this game that have an especially great need to hunt, Mafia and Town. His cases are convincing enough that I don't really feel he has the right motivation to be a werewolf. But this doesn't exclude maf.

Null:
Mac: I don't really know what he's doing.
Egg: Unlike me, he doesn't really have a good excuse to call himself town all the time. My trust tell gets stronger as more games end and I have more examples of using it and flipping my stated alignment. Follow up: Fuzzy keeps asking this, how do you know Fuzzy?


Lean scum: Autti A thing that pinged the read, was that he avoided my question when I asked if he had experience in mafia, he said "On this site" which means he has experience elsewhere, but doesn't want to talk about it. There's not really a reason for this avoidance if he's town, it shows a caution that is entirely unnecessary for a town mindset. Further, he should know that some players town hunt rather than scum hunt and make cases for why players are town. But yet, he was confused as to why I would make a case for why a player was town.

Scum:
Fuzzy

Case:

post 47 Has no motivation to argue this as town this game.
post 59 Asks for why he sounded defensive.
post 62 Imposes his own argument. Which is fine.
post 64Does not jive with 59, trying to sound nonchalant.
post 145 ...This is true. He gets lynched a lot. All the more reason to get a fully developed read on this slot though.
post 303 This does not jive well with his meta mindset at all. He usually doesn't drop things like this. Further, his vote stayed in this post.
post 303 However, this contradicts it as, if he felt his argument was valid on TNE Which he showed valid indications of doubting, it makes sense for his vote to change.

VOTE: Fuzzybutternut

Questions:
1. Are you town? I need to know.
2. Can you give your reads list as it stands? I don't really remember if you do read's lists or not. Give reasons why.

Questions unrelated to Fuzzy that should be answered by everyone:

1. If I am town, then who is scum?
I'd like it on record. This is not implying I am the lynch today, far from it. Farthest from it in fact, don't even think it. But imagine the scenario, and give your answers. As it will help me and others to develop a better read.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Fuzzy is at L-2

[Icebox]

Sadness.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Because Werewolves don't need to hunt as much. They have more options available to them to deal with problems. Mafia need to create convincing cases to mislynch town or lynch werewolves.

-Rem

[Icebox]

1. I already argued for why Klick is town in post 301. That's why it is bare. It doesn't apply to Klick because he's not hunting vigorously.
2. DBK, Originally because his meta did not jive at all with his scum game, in which there was much lurking. I just found out from http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26710 that he has just changed his style. So, I need to reassess this read. The read had a lot to do with how it didn't jive with his scum meta. So it in fact, no longer applies to DBK. Although he has not made any cases case, but he has done something that I find closely equivalent.
3. For the Zach read: Town have more to be paranoid about than either the mafia team (As they are in a team of 3 and know who their partners are) or the Werewolves (who have the greatest amount of control). Basically, they know more, so, they have less to be paranoid about.That said Zach had his Wagon derailed really quickly and people started to jump on those who voted him right away. It's something to think about later. Further he has not made a serious case for anyone other than TNE (and even that is somewhat bare) and it was a case as to why he was town, not to why he was scum.

-Rem

[Icebox]

* So, Zach and Klick stay. For the reasons given.

Rethinking DBK and how to approach his play.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Actually, I can't.

-Rem

[Icebox]

"OMGUS stands for "Oh My God, You Suck (for voting for me)!". it is sometimes used as a shorthand to indicate that

you are voting for someone primarily

because they voted for you."

-Rem

[Icebox]

hey guys I'm back.
catching up.

-G

[Icebox]

You, however, didn't, and only commented on my calling you scum. It was a knee-jerk reaction. You essentially said, "I'm not scum! You're scum!", which of course sets off my scumdar immediately.

If you're talking about #198, I was sarcastically calling your associative logic there shit.

-G

[Icebox]

I'm completely lost.

1. You think my playstyle is scummy? I can't do anything about that. Some of the best players on this site (such as Nachomamma) town hunt.
2. You think that it's suspicious that I asked someone not to be effected by their lack of general suspicion? That is, a lot of players read Klick as town. This can affect them and their decisions negatively. Because those who interact with them generally see them as town, they treat the player differently and it gets in the way of their ability to scum hunt (sometimes). I am stating that I hope that doesn't happen. Because I created another argument for why he was town and presumably, if anyone finds it convincing, will have a more favorable read on that player. Which will influence these interactions.
3. Your definition is secondary to the wiki definition upon which vocabulary is largely learned by the player base. You can say that isn't this isn't the intended meaning, but given that OMGUS originated from a player voting someone else on this site, I'm pretty sure it is. So it's not OMGUS. Call it something else.

Pedit: That's somewhat ironic. I'm town this game. Interesting RQS now that I see what it meant though. I might steal it if you don't mind.

-Rem

[Icebox]

@DBK, have you ever thought about how to read Fuzzy?

The correct answer is to vote him.

@Fuzzy,

Answer my questions from post 367.

@Everyone still want an answer to the "If I'm not scum, who is" question.

-Rem

[Icebox]

1. The point of the question isn't wifom. I've explained it before. Town are happy to say they are town. Scum aren't. Actually I explained it in the game I was in with you last time. But I posted a lot there, so I can't really blame you for skimming.
2. All I've gotten from you is that you need to be put at L-1.

-Rem

[Icebox]

It's a meta thing. Some players try to lie as little as possible as scum. It's designed to catch such players.

-Rem

[Icebox]

I know, Bo. That "and" should have been a "/"

Autti is town because he hasn't done anything terribly scummy. Admittedly, it's not a strong town read, but it's a town read nonetheless.

This answer...
Looks lazy as hell.

[Icebox]

@DBK: Wouldn't Klick be a town read if he actually had an excuse, not a null read? Why does it make him null if he's actually busy instead of just leaning town on him again?

-Rem

[Icebox]

The question also has the potential to reveal mafia though.

-Rem

[Icebox]

I'll go ahead and say this, as there's only one person who hasn't posted. Anyone who answered with only one partner for #2 has a high chance of being a Werewolf. The RQS has worked for me in this setup before - feel free to look it up. My name's kondi in those.

All I remember seeing was fuzzy and Icebox. However, since Icebox is a hydra and both heads answered with one partner, VOTE: Icebox.

This also means that those two have a very low chance of being Mafia.

Also, anyone who didn't answer the question properly is probably some kind of scum because they're pretending to be lighthearted to look town.

PEdit: Not liking thenewearth so far.

I'm confused now.
He didn't perfectly explain it, but he did mention it right away. Further he explained it later, without anyone prompting him too. I think?

-Rem

[Icebox]

But how does saying it later with no prompting make him null? Isn't that good? It shows an honesty and willingness to be open without prompting by others. The question is clearly designed for both alignments. If anything, it's geared toward finding Mafia over werewolves.

Unrelated (but related): your Fuzzy read. It's our meta understanding of him versus yours. A lot of these players have played with Fuzzy. For those who haven't (and if you're a player that uses meta) please compare his scum and town games.

@ Bulb: Explain why you think Fuzzy's response makes him town.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Theoretical mafia-Klick wouldn't have forgotten to in the first place.

1. Because your reading of his character didn't make sense to me. If I see something off in someone's reads, I'm going to ask about it. While I am a town hunter, that doesn't mean I don't hunt scum. I'm looking at your reasoning. I am looking for what people's opinions are and looking to find out if they are fake, or not.

[Icebox]

We've been saying in thread for quite a while that Fuzzy is stubborn about his reads

In the thread, to his face.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Partner is V/LA again, personal matter.

Requesting another prod of Zachattack.

@Syrana:
If Fuzzy is not scum, then it's scum read #2, Autti. I just can't see a reason for his dishonesty, from a town POV. Bulbazak's playstyle is frustrating, but I've come to accept that I am going to have to ask him to explain himself every time he talks in this game, I forgot to put him in my reads.

-Rem

[Icebox]

What don't you understand?

You say this doesn't look genuine, or this is wrong, or you don't "like" something. But you don't elaborate further without prompting. It makes it difficult to determine if you're scum hunting or not.

[Icebox]

@DBK, what do you think of Egg's post? 445?

-Rem

[Icebox]

^ Because I'm town.

Why hasn't Fuzzy been lynched yet? He's scum.

-Rem

[Icebox]

@Egg, On Autti: I accused him of something. He states I am doing it as an OMGUS. I say I'm doing it because he was vague for no reason. He solidifies his read on me, for reasons that don't make sense.

Pedit: @Fuzzy, then why aren't you hunting? This is completely different from what I've seen you do as town.

[Icebox]

Okay, explain the advantages to your style of play. How, is what you're doing beneficial for town?

-Rem

[Icebox]

Sure, I've questioned Bulbazak, questioned Autti, Questioned you, made a case against you, argued that Klick was town, Stated that Syrana was not likely to be a werewolve based on his play. GIf argued that TNE was town. Pressured Zach etcetera. Your turn.

@Bo: I specifically mentioned what I thought of it.

We've been saying in thread for quite a while that Fuzzy is stubborn about his reads

In the thread, to his face.

Do you want me to elaborate?

-Rem

-Rem

[Icebox]

Scum can do productive things too, DBK. You know that as well as I do.

P-Edit: A lot of questioning,

with little following up. Nice.

Bulb- being who I am, they are both number one priorities.

Would you like to back this statement up with quotes?

-Rem

[Icebox]

@Egg, can you explain to me why you're voting me.
Please summarize it. Thank you.

[Icebox]

Actually, @Everyone: Why are you voting me. Give your reasons. Do not requote yourself.

-Rem

[Icebox]

I know for a fact you're wrong.

I've already explained all of these behaviors. The fact you can't detect the truth of them is partly your failing, and partly mine. But you are responsible for your interpretations and analysis, not me. You're assuming I think like other players, that I don't have motivations outside of mafia that make me say these things or that I don't have particular quirks.

First: Of course it looked forced, I'm using it as a trust tell. I am going to unnaturally go out of my way to call myself town when I'm town.
Furthermore, I've tried to do exactly what I said. I was being entirely serious, and while Fuzzy says I don't follow up. That is exactly what I have been trying to do. That's your opinion on what I was trying to do. I've already explained my actual motivation. You not believing it is your choice, but ultimately you've decided this, you're wrong. And this will be proven one way or another and the beautiful thing about trust tells is that, that is how they work. They get stronger the more times, I use it and demonstrate I wasn't lying.

Second: Did you think I would discontinue using it just because you voted me? Of course I'm going to keep doing it, given that is what I said I was going to do. I will continue to call myself town as town.

Third: Your reaction test, is not very good given your results. It's not an inadvertent reaction test, if you don't plan it and decide what you're looking for beforehand. You don't know how to interpret your results, and your conclusion about me only proves that. That wasn't a reaction test, that was just something you said and then noticed a bunch of people responded to it and then you noticed, "hey that guy didn't!"

Furthermore GIF already responded to this.

You, however, didn't, and only commented on my calling you scum. It was a knee-jerk reaction. You essentially said, "I'm not scum! You're scum!", which of course sets off my scumdar immediately.

If you're talking about #198, I was sarcastically calling your associative logic there shit.

-G

I didn't post that, Gif did. He was making fun of you for your awful logic. Then used that logic against you, it wasn't a "I'm not scum! You're scum!" it's a "That's really stupid, let me show how stupid it is by using the same logic" and now you've misinterpreted it and

completely ignored Gif's response,

in favor of your own reasoning.

Lastly, I already explained, I did not want to misrepresent the strength of my argument. You are assuming

I think like you,

when it is evidently and abundantly clear

that I don't think like you

and

I don't play like you

,

I don't argue to win, I argue to see if it stands to scrutiny. I am not a town leader. I question people and expect others to go over the results for themselves and to come to conclusions, that is what I've tried to bring, and Fuzzy says I haven't done anything, but others have looked at player's responses and adjusted their reads accordingly, and that is of benefit. I expect my arguments to be criticized and argued against. I expect this, and I am not above or think that your opinion necessitates I don't criticize my own arguments for their weakness.

.

There's neither town, nor scum motivation with that EBWOP, just me being me. Others are like that too. You say there aren't, there clearly are: Nice to meet you.

-Rem

[Icebox]

I had a large post, but I realized that it wasn't what I wanted. It doesn't help town in the slightest. I will summarize it instead and remove the stupid bits.

@Bulb: Wifom is not a scum tell and it's not wifom given it is the truth. You're assuming it isn't. If you have nothing better, then try to get something better. Either by questioning me for my actions or questioning others until you can reveal scummy behavior, not just behavior that is unique or difficult to interpret.

@Autti, potential scum does not equal actual scum. The rest of your accusation is your belief.

I think Fuzzy is scum, because of lack of hunting, his out of character play, his survivalism. I disagree with DBK's and Bulb's cases that he is town. And it's clear to me he is having difficulty keeping his story straight. Further, his reads are extremely lazy. His comments on how I am playing shows a complete lack of understanding, that I think town would be able to recognize. They might doubt my scum hinting, but they will not deny it is there. It shows a real lack of interpretation or depth that I find is something newer scum have difficulty with.

-Rem

[Icebox]

1. Then don't. But don't vote me for me for asking you to believe me. Vote me for scummy, anti-town behavior. I am not being anti-town, just speaking to you in a fashion that does not sit right by you.
2. It can be, but I don't truly believe it has damaged this game irreparably, I am still playing and still hunting and questioning. There are other means to read me by.
3. A lack of town motivation does not = scum motivation. Anti-town actions = scum motivation.

Can I ask that you spend some time and look over Fuzzy? And evaluate my case on him given his posts?

-Rem

[Icebox]

@DBK two questions immediately come to mind:

1. What did you see in my iso that changed you mind? Explain the reasoning.
2. What prompted you to iso me?

-Rem

[Icebox]

Hey Bacde and GM.

How are you doing?

@Bacde: I think that there are 3 mafia and 2 werewolves. Not 2 mafia and 2 werewolves. I want to know your opinion on Fuzzy when you are finished reading.

-Rem

[Icebox]

I had a longer post, but I think it would be best just to give the short version.

The short answer is that it would be optimal to lynch Mafia and Werewolves in an order that is to town's best advantage.
The best order in my thinking would be: Mafia-> Werewolf -> Mafia(or maybe werewolf to get rid of the NK, depends how incompetent they are with their NK's) -> Werewolf-> Mafia.

So, I think it's optimal to not concentrate on one faction so much it is better to aim for specific factions on specific days. As it is best to use these factions to do the legwork for town. That said, getting rid of the NK, will protect stronger town players from the NK, which can be a huge disadvantage to us and the mafia. But a lot of this speculation relies on a sort of standard level of skill. Obviously if the Mafia team is better, then they should be concentrated on first, or else strong town players and Werewolves will be made quick work of and they'll be difficult to lynch with all three still alive. If the werewolf team concentrates their NK's on strong town players rather then on Mafia then they should be brought down first (but the Mafia should be bled so that their voting power becomes weaker).

-Rem

[Icebox]

Us = Town
Mafia: them.

Strong town players being Nked = bad for town.

[Icebox]

Wait, that looks completely wrong.

What the fuck.

[Icebox]

That's not what I meant at all. -_-)

[Icebox]

WOW Rem

you can't not slip as scum?

This looks familiar.

[Icebox]

@TNE: because I'm hunting. And I'm town. Duh.

@Klick: Back on Fuzzy, I want him at L-1. Thank you.

[Icebox]

I mean the exaggeration.

[Icebox]

Do it please.

[Icebox]

Who said anything about phasing?

[Icebox]

Thank you very much, Klick. I will remember this. Anyone else want to humor me?

He's not at L-1 yet, I think.

He's at L-2.

[Icebox]

@Klick, once he is at L-1 I will tell you, rather, he will tell you.

And then I will explain. Please?

[Icebox]

@DBK, help me out? I'll owe you.

-Rem

[Icebox]

@TNE: Thank you very much.
@Bulbazak: His vote will come right back to me after Fuzzy gets to L-1, unless I convince him otherwise at that time.

[Icebox]

@Fuzzy, claim.

[Icebox]

I'm doing what I need to do to survive. That's all I'm saying on that matter.

Explain how what

you

are doing is beneficial for town.

Scum can do productive things too, DBK. You know that as well as I do.

P-Edit: A lot of questioning, with little following up. Nice.

Bulb- being who I am, they are both number one priorities.

Why.

-Rem

[Icebox]

You bread crumbed.

[Icebox]

You bread crumbed.

who, me?

You bread crumbed.

who, me?

You bread crumbed.

who, me?

You bread crumbed.

who, me?

I stole this technique from Nacho.

[Icebox]

The technique of repeating what someone says over and over when it is really, really damning.

Pretty much a #1 priority of survival and hunting are both only equally important to a PR. But not to vanilla town. He's going to deny this, but I want you to think of how many bad guys in novels say what he just said.

-Rem

[Icebox]

I'm completely lost.

1. You think my playstyle is scummy? I can't do anything about that. Some of the best players on this site (such as Nachomamma) town hunt.
2. You think that it's suspicious that I asked someone not to be effected by their lack of general suspicion? That is, a lot of players read Klick as town. This can affect them and their decisions negatively. Because those who interact with them generally see them as town, they treat the player differently and it gets in the way of their ability to scum hunt (sometimes). I am stating that I hope that doesn't happen. Because I created another argument for why he was town and presumably, if anyone finds it convincing, will have a more favorable read on that player. Which will influence these interactions.
3. Your definition is secondary to the wiki definition upon which vocabulary is largely learned by the player base. You can say that isn't this isn't the intended meaning, but given that OMGUS originated from a player voting someone else on this site, I'm pretty sure it is. So it's not OMGUS. Call it something else.

Pedit:

That's somewhat ironic.

I'm town this game. Interesting RQS now that I see what it meant though. I might steal it if you don't mind.

-Rem

^ Klick said I was likely to be a werewolf. Fuzzy was trying to draw me out.

-Rem

[Icebox]

We're both guys. Bulbazak.

-Rem.

[Icebox]

#584:

Hint, what is the definition of Irony.

[Icebox]

Hey guys. Maybe this is more blatant for you. <-

[Icebox]

Lynch Fuzzy.

FFS.

-Rem.

[Icebox]

UNVOTE:

I'll wait and let you guys get discussion going.

[Icebox]

@Everyone: Sorry. I tried everything I could think of not to claim.

Talk to each other, wait for GD to contribute. We have a few days left, you get the idea. Get a feel for each other.

Sorry GIF.

-Rem

[Icebox]

@Mac: Why are you active all of sudden?

[Icebox]

@Mac, things can't happen if you aren't here. Why weren't you here when town was dead in the water? Anything you did could have helped us get better reads throughout the day.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Just iso me. And realize I was setting myself up to claim when DBK suddenly unvoted me, I immediately started doing wagon analysis. I bread crumbed too, I pointed out where, when I quoted that post a few ways up. It's ironic that Klick was accusing me of being a werewolf, because I was the seer. I tried hints first.

I got on Fuzzy's tail because his play wasn't making sense to me, and then he bread crumbed so I immediately started pushing for him to claim.

@pEDIT: Sec.

[Icebox]

No.

[Icebox]

It takes a lot of work to get scum lynched.

That much is really, really obvious. Especially given the fact a counter wagon popped up immediately.

-Rem

[Icebox]

I'm doing what I need to do to survive. That's all I'm saying on that matter.

Explain how what

you

are doing is beneficial for town.

Scum can do productive things too, DBK. You know that as well as I do.

P-Edit: A lot of questioning, with little following up. Nice.

Bulb- being who I am, they are both number one priorities.

Please click the link for context.

From my point of view, he is excusing his lack of hunting to survive, he then leads into this and goes on the defensive when DBK says I have been doing more than him: "being who I am" in context it doesn't make sense to excuse his play this way. Unless he is soft claiming.

His recent actions too don't make much sense. Given Fuzzy's reads.

I don't have much time to post any more today, thankfully there is an extension and I go through this crazyness tomorrow and make more sense of all of this.

-Rem

[Icebox]

He's pretty much soft claiming town

rather than soft claiming PR.

You always do this stuff when you're town.

I'd question you about it, but I recognize what it is again. It's just the way you think. Maybe you're right, and Fuzzy just doesn't want to hunt today. At all. Whatsoever. Is not interested. Does not want. Does not care as long as he makes it to lylo. I don't understand the thinking, it's optimal I suppose for either alignment to live as long as they can, but on the flip side when you're in a whole lot of games, you're probably going to make it in lylo eventually.

But there is a problem that bugs me: You said sheeping Fuzzy was scum Fuzzy. Fuzzy sheeped.
Is it no longer scummy? Or what happened there?

Ugh, I want to question everyone. All the time. Every minute of every day until I know everything. But I need to do stuff.

I'll be back tomorrow.

Let GM post Bacde, jeez.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Post before bed:

Bacde is not a werewolf. Do not know about Mafia though.

-Rem

[Icebox]

retract icebox I know you aren't the real seer

lets not ask for ccs and out the real seer please

-Rem

[Icebox]

He just wouldn't say anything and kill me at night if he was.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Thank you.

[Icebox]

/confirmed

1. Are you Town? Give three sentences to explain your reasoning.
2. Who would you like to be Mafia with in this game?

1. Nope. I'm a monkey. Ook.
2. Maestro and Eddie Fenix

On a serious note, glad to see Fuzzy again.

He's really cool and easy to read.

If he's Mafia, he'll slip within 3 pages.

I think Fuzzy is scum, because of lack of hunting, his out of character play, his survivalism. I disagree with DBK's and Bulb's cases that he is town. And it's clear to me he is having difficulty keeping his story straight. Further, his reads are extremely lazy. His comments on how I am playing shows a complete lack of understanding, that I think town would be able to recognize. They might doubt my scum hinting, but they will not deny it is there. It shows a real lack of interpretation or depth that I find is something newer scum have difficulty with.

I don't see the lack of hunting, nor his out of character play (

I've only completed 3 games with him, andI still can't read him

.). His survivalism is a good point, as scum is more apt to do it than town. I can also see where he has been constantly backpedaling. However, I think in order to convince the rest of the town, you're going to need some more concrete points, which means you need to refine your case a bit.

I don't like DBK's explanation for unvoting me when I started to go through those that voted me.He used my reasoning and my perspective. He should have his own. Ultimately, I think he had some other motive for backing off. But I can't tell if it's scum or town motivated.

Autti doesn't feel sincere to me. His reasoning had no merit. Someone reading you as scum while you read them is scum, does not make them scummy. The reasoning was broken in the first place. He's still lean scum for me.

The counter wagon speaks volumes. To what, I do not know. Hopefully you guys can figure it out.

VOTE: FBN

Fuzzy says killing Klick will solve problems and allow others to get reads. What he has failed to realize is that the same goes for him. Fuzzy > Klick in terms of scumminess. People doubt themselves in this game. And players were constantly arguing with him about it. Doubt is natural. I'd be more surprised if he didn't doubt himself and it just arouse that way.

@Bacde, you're the type for wagon analysis. Given how easily the wagon on Klick gained speed, does it feel "right" to you?

If Gif comes back he can freely change the vote to anyone for any reason, he has that right.

I'll post more tomorrow. Good night guys and girls.

-Rem

[Icebox]

K.

So I see Bacde and Bulba is butthurt that our slot ain't scum. (Surprise, surprise.)

And Klick's RQS is not always effective at catching scum too.

/inyourface.

Commencing catching up.

-G

[Icebox]

Actually, @Everyone: Why are you voting me. Give your reasons. Do not requote yourself.

-Rem

1. I am town. I know it because I received a town role pm. I know it because I have confidence in my ability to read and not misinterpret my role message. I know it because of how I will play this game, which is to search for Mafia and werewolves and to keep the town alive.

You overdid it here by trying to convince us so hard that you were town. It feels fake. I've found that normally those who overemphasize that they're town are actually scum. I don't put much stock in your "trust tell". It's too much WIFOM. I tried to give you a break because of it, and watched you to see what you would do, but the WIFOM continued, and I felt that I was right in my initial assessment.

Please say that you checked Rem's meta before you posted this.

Notes before I leave for the day:

Autti's #176 has robots in it.

Still not wild about Mac's play, but at least he's starting to participate.

Due to #188, should TNE flip scum, Icebox is likely his partner.

Just like how you're scum if fuzzy flip scum.

As I explained earlier, the Autti comment ended up being an inadvertent reaction test, which everybody who responded to the post addressed. Except you. Instead, you skipped right to the end to address a suspicion based on association, and one that admittedly was not as strong. I essentially called you scum, and you responded with only "I'm not scum. You're scum!", which is essentially OMGUS (And yes, I know that there wasn't a vote on either side, but it's the same principle. You called someone scum for calling you scum.).

I already explained this.

*Unless of course we're on the same team.

-Rem

This post is an extreme bit of WIFOM and CAN NOT have come from town. If town feels that they may be mistaken, they either don't mention it, or they downplay it in how they post, normally via vocabulary. Rarely do they say that they might be wrong, and they NEVER say "Unless we're on the same team." That bit of WIFOM does not help town one bit, and it weakens the town read on Klick and opens up doubt on what was a strong town read for many people. Town would never do that, because it plays against their wincon and is essentially a lie, since they know that they're not scum, so there's no reason to present that WIFOM to the rest of the town.

IF it was #302 by itself. But If you connect it with #301 (Which you should. You know. Which is was meant to be.), there's no WIFOM that you mentions.

Point is, I can't see any of this coming from a town mindset. Therefore, you are my strongest scumread.

I know for a fact you're wrong.

WIFOM

and

AtE. You're really stepping it up.

So? What's wrong with AtE? Town can't AtE? Again, talk to me after you read Rem's towngame. (FYI, I'm one of those people who don't take ALL AtE as scumtell.)

You're assuming I think like other players, that I don't have motivations outside of mafia that make me say these things or that I don't have particular quirks.

This is a game, and you need to play it as such. There is no outside motivation outside of the game of Mafia that should influence your play to that degree. If it is a personal belief against lying or deception, you're going to find out that you'll lose pretty quickly. Play the game, and play to win. If you are indeed using "trust tells", you are going to lose, and are playing against all future wincons, and are therefore a bad player. I'm assuming the opposite and using standard tells to determine your alignment.

Blah Blah Blah. What you said here implies that our slot is pitiful

town

that needs some coaching.

Third: Your reaction test, is not very good given your results. It's not an inadvertent reaction test, if you don't plan it and decide what you're looking for beforehand. You don't know how to interpret your results, and your conclusion about me only proves that. That wasn't a reaction test, that was just something you said and then noticed a bunch of people responded to it and then you noticed, "hey that guy didn't!"

Just because I didn't intend it as a reaction test does not mean that it isn't effective. If you are the only person who doesn't react to something strange, naturally I'm going to wonder what's going on. Couple that with the fact that you only responded to allegations of you being scummy, and I'm naturally going to be suspicious.

Which reaction test are you talking about here?

Furthermore GIF already responded to this.

You, however, didn't, and only commented on my calling you scum. It was a knee-jerk reaction. You essentially said, "I'm not scum! You're scum!", which of course sets off my scumdar immediately.

If you're talking about #198, I was sarcastically calling your associative logic there shit.

-G

I didn't post that, Gif did. He was making fun of you for your awful logic. Then used that logic against you, it wasn't a "I'm not scum! You're scum!" it's a "That's really stupid, let me show how stupid it is by using the same logic" and now you've misinterpreted it and

completely ignored Gif's response,

in favor of your own reasoning.

Saying someone's logic is bad is not the same as explaining why it is bad. Gif's response is the equivalent of throwing poo, and I don't dignify such things with a response.

That was the whole point of #198. All I did was just say stuff that you said to us, which you called "throwing poo." See what I mean now?

There's neither town, nor scum motivation with that EBWOP, just me being me.

Then you posted something completely useless in a game where everyone is trying to deduce the meaning behind everything that is said. EVERYTHING you say and do is tied back to your alignment. Your personality can give it a unique spin, but it is still related. Saying otherwise is ludicrous. If you were town, there was no reason to say such a thing in the first place, as it should never have crossed your mind. If scum, it's the opportune piece of WIFOM. Given everything, you're either simply a bad player or scum. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming the latter.

There's no reason to say such a thing in the first place as scum either and there is reason to say such a thing in the first place as town. So your point is null.

@Bulb: Wifom is not a scum tell and it's not wifom given it is the truth. You're assuming it isn't. If you have nothing better, then try to get something better. Either by questioning me for my actions or questioning others until you can reveal scummy behavior, not just behavior that is unique or difficult to interpret.

First, truth is subjective in this game. Only a limited few know what is true. Everyone else just knows a limited version of the truth, which is unhelpful as a whole. If you're town, you

know

that you're town, but nobody else does. Saying so can

properly

be construed as WIFOM, as there is no proof for it. We have to take your word for it, which is something that we should absolutely

never

do.

Sure. Whatever you say.

Second, WIFOM can be a scumtell, because it's scum saying something knowing that town will try to ascertain the meaning behind it, knowing that scum knew the phrase would be dissected (But you knew that I might be watching, therefore...). It's a phrase that ends up being a waste of time. Town can say things that do the same thing. Normally it's involving something that we have to trust their word on, such as "I don't do this as scum". In these cases, they should still be handled in the same way as WIFOM and considered untrustworthy.

Sure. Whatever you say.

Third, I have questioned and addressed these points before, and I wasn't satisfied with the answers I received, as it ended up being more WIFOM, more "trust me" or "take my word for it". Point of the matter is that I don't trust you, and I don't believe you, and you saying that I should is not helping matters, as it only compounds the scum read. I don't see the town motivation behind your actions. Therefore, I think you are scum and that you should be lynched.

Sure. Whatever you say. But since we claimed already (and no counterclaim), we're not getting lynched. Too bad for you.

[Icebox]

@Klick: so we're not wolf. Now who's wolf?

[Icebox]

lol let it slide

retract icebox I know you aren't the real seer

lets not ask for ccs and out the real seer please

gfto.

Sadly, these posts reeks town.

[Icebox]

gtfo*

wow acronym fail.

[Icebox]

ok

VOTE: klick

Tomorrow should be fuzzy.

Why not fuzzy today? I want werewolf first.

[Icebox]

PEDIT: THE FUCK IS THIS SEER BULLSHIT

I GUESS I'LL FIND OUT TOMORROW

CAPS LOVE <3

[Icebox]

Autti, (on Page 16) you completely misunderstood Bo's point. Why is Icebox's case on you OMGUS? A lot of people have shown suspicion of Icebox. Why would he single you out over these other people. "That's his choice" doesn't really answer that. Not if you want to keep the whole OMGUS point you made. Tell me why Icebox is scum who thinks you are better to OMGUS than all of the other people who suspect him.

Looking at Klick's look back to RQS, I didn't even realize bulb used players not in this game (or I forgot about it). That makes it easy to not have to leave connections to other players.

Icebox, you are just arguing semantics on the OMGUS thing. He's making the point whether he's calling it the right thing or not. Yes, his thinking is flawed. But I don't like the way you dismiss the point by saying he's calling it the wrong thing. Why not address the point itself?

Maybe OMGUS was the wrong turn of phrase to use. But Icebox posted a case against me (weak i might add, DBK's is far better) simply because i posted a case against him. Also notice he did nothing to address my suspicions, and still hasn't, he has just railroaded with unnecessary explanations of events not pertinent to the scum cases against him.

The minute Klick posted a case against him it was addressed immediately by him, because Klick is seen as town in by almost everyone currently. Mine however, never even mentioned it, his defense was to case suspicion on me in turn. That is scummy. Maybe i got a bit ahead of myself, and obviously i'm thinking my case is better than it is because i wrote it, i'm fallible and forget that haha, but i still think he is scum.

Icebox #476

Of course it looked forced, I'm using it as a trust tell. I am going to unnaturally go out of my way to call myself town when I'm town.

Except when you called yourself potential scum! Which was the start of my case anyway and one you have refused to address.

Since when reflexive scumhunting was scummy?

[Icebox]

TNE, Icebox thought Fuzzy tried laying fake bread crumbs to fakeclaim Seer, when Icebox is

(probably)

the real seer.

That's exactly what happened. But I don't know why Rem put Fuzzy for L-1 for claim. -.-;

[Icebox]

Shit, 3 days until deadline.

Why haven't we lynched Icebox yet?

unvote, vote icebox

Try again.

Also, what's your read on TNE now?

[Icebox]

/spamposts

[Icebox]

@Bacde: that "gtfo" was a joke part. I thinking you as town was the point I tried to make.
Also I never said anything about klick being scum. I agree with fuzzy though.

[Icebox]

lol i'm always a survivalist.

No you're not.

-G

[Icebox]

@Syr: why do you think keeping the seer alive is scum priority?
Seer without werewolves is basically a clear that mafias won't be able to get rid of.

[Icebox]

So before I get cap'd by dem furries, we can create a little townblock of me+syr+bacde. Maybe Bo too.

[Icebox]

UNVOTE:

[Icebox]

First things first.

[Icebox]

That's a false dilemma they can both be town you know.

Give Klick the same amount of time, and give him a chance to defend himself properly.

What are your reads Klick? What do you think of the replacements, what do you think about Fuzzy given that he is now probably town? How has this changed your reads?


-Rem

[Icebox]

As I said.

Bacde+me+Bo+syr.
Town bloc.

[Icebox]

Also, I want the reason why fuzzy thinks syr is scum.
Because his final reads were terrible.

[Icebox]

How much effort did you put on your reads?

Also explain your scumread on syr.

[Icebox]

Tell me why picking fights is little good for town. Because I'm starting to get a better read on you with this.

[Icebox]

@Bulb: Well it's more like provoking rather than picking a fight but oh well.

[Icebox]

Fuzzy's recent behavior seems like playstyle to me, if anything. I mean if we can't lynch Klick today and it's close to deadline I'll lynch Fuzzy, he's not

that

town to me.

Also, Bulb, I don't see anything wrong with Egg having 6 scum reads.

You're giving fuzzy too much "credit." Town fuzzy is simply better than this.

[Icebox]

Dw. I know when to stop when I'm provoking ppl.
(Tbh I missed your unvote.)

I don't know why rem thinks you're scum.

[Icebox]

Nvm. He have town read on bulba. -.-

[Icebox]

So if it wasn't clear I think bulba is town at this point.

[Icebox]

Survivalism is a perk of...just Fuzzy, a la pretty much every game I've played him in.

Last time I played with him, he wasn't THIS survivalistic. At least, in D1.

-G

[Icebox]

dbk don't ruin it for me :/

What am I ruining for you?

My town-read on you

Because of how you read fuzzy. Being all wishy-washy and stuff

Being wishy-washy on general is bad. But being wishy-washy on certain person is a towntell.

-G

[Icebox]

Good luck town! 4 left. Beat them.

-Rem