Open 493 - Jungle Republic. (Game Over - Werewolf Victory)

[Princess Proton]

you should probably start contributing because the way things look everyone is going to keep disagreeing about our top scumreads and then you will be the compromise lynch of the day at this rate

o7

I'm Town. Just found the thread. Reading now.

[Princess Proton]

VOTE: Klick

Well. THAT was easy. Klick is the other werewolf. Now we just have to find the mafia goons.

[Princess Proton]

^Good Voting^

[Princess Proton]

Why is Egg wolf and Princess mafia?

This?

[Princess Proton]

Did you guys lynch klick as a werewolf lynch or as an actual scum lynch?

I lynched him thinking he was the other werewolf. My goal was to take out one killing faction if at all possible. He was anti-Town so it didn't really matter to me as Town. I knew there was a chance of cross kill but figured the kill was more likely to land on Town. So I was hunting the other wolf. At this point my understanding is that there is one wolf and one mafia in the game. So, as long as we lynch anti-Town today we reduce the number of night kills by one tonight thus lowering the chance of another Town dying.

Why does it matter, TNE? For reads?

[Princess Proton]

The case on Mac isn't very concrete (I read most of the case as RVS instead of actual scum tells), plus Mac has been pretty townie to me the whole game.

This indicates to me that Mac is not the last werewolf. Mac would want to keep Bo around to defend him.

Bulb, let's be real, you're not getting your Egg lynch today. No one else has given him a large scumread.

Reason he's Mafia and not Wolf: he's avidly hunting for the wolf. Well, firstly, it's not unlike Bulb to try to abolish a NK before focusing on Mafia (ANY Nightless is better than something with a NK), because I know that Bulb is the type of player willing to do anything to make his wincon easier.

Maybe defending Egg? I have to keep reading.

If Bulb votes Autti I'll switch back to Autti. Still standing by whichever wagon is bigger from Klick/Autti I'll be on.

Possible coaching Bulb? In either case, it likely clears Autti as last Mafia.

This is what I have so far.

[Princess Proton]

Your case on Bulb is reasonable.

Your case on me is awful.

1. "Survivalistic is scummy" is a bogus tell people create to make someone look scummy. I don't know why you had Autti as scum. I don't care. I'm not Autti and I'm Town. Also, I helped lynch a non Town as my very first vote. That buys me at least one opportunity to be wrong. So stop tunneling on me because of the former occupant of this slot. Otherwise, I will have to show you all the examples of Town playing "survivalistic" and I'm really too lazy to show you that it is equally likely to come from either alignment. Finally, I wasn't playing survivalistic. I came in and voted my scum read. It was that simple.

2. There was nothing "random" about calling Klick the last werewolf. I saw a relational tell between Klick and FBN. FBN had 4 posts in a row [via ISO] beginning with 806 where he swears up and down that Klick is mafia. Sounded like a bus attempt.

3. Finally, you didn't motivate anything. I came in. I read. I voted.

[Princess Proton]

I sincerely doubt that DBK was killed to purposely take out a mafia.

This may or may not be true. Let's say it is. Why would Autti/PP werewolf be a more likely reason than

most people had DBK as town.

???

Taking out the most popular Town read is a much more likely scenario.

Anyway, you are doing it wrong. If you want to call my slot a scummy werewolf slot, you need to connect Autti to FDN. When you can't do that, you need to recognize that you are tunneling on a scum read you had on Autti for whatever reason and let that go.

This spoiler tag is really just for you for the sake of further disproving your argument in case you need it.

Spoiler:

These are DBK's "reads:"

Egg scum also doesn't feel right to me.

Mac has been pretty townie to me the whole game.

These two posts side by side are interesting to me

I'm fairly confident Autti and Klick are both scum, and that I'll be on the wagon with more votes.

Any chance he said this because Autti and click were the leading wagons at the time? This was the post IMMEDIATELY before his.

VC 2.01

Autti (Goodmorning, DBK, Klick, Syryana) - L-2
Egg (Bulba)
Klick (Egg, Bacde)

As far as DBK's "scum read" on Autti, this is the first time DBK explained his Autti scum read:

Why Auttiscum, DBK?

Super fence sitting for a lot of the game. Just calling things suspicious. Anyone can call things suspicious. He seemed to be slipping under the radar for most of the game too (something scum likes to do). When I asked for reads he gave two town reads and two scum reads...I think. Even though he's called suspicious things out for multiple players all game.

Essentially, it was all for active lurking. Active lurking on a player that replaced out due to RL time constraints, it appears. In retrospect, this has the classic appearance of scum trying to take out an easy target. If anything, that's a better reason to find my slot TOWN than scum. Though I guess you would be accusing me of being a wolf.

Am I wrong in my new assumption that odd nights are mafia kill nights and even nights are werewolf nights? If not, we need to be focused on finding the last mafia. I think we can both agree that Autti/PP is certainly not the last mafia. That should buy me enough time to prove I'm not a ww either to anyone that still thinks this is a possibility.

[Princess Proton]

Why did you think Klick was the other wolf? Why didn't his anti-town team alignment matter, if you were wolf hunting? You do realize Mafia don't have a NK?

Really? I just assumed multiball and odd/even night kills. I actually didn't know mafia don't have a kill. I feel like if we took out the werewolves they would though, right?

[Princess Proton]

Survivalism is not a scumtell.

You could have stopped there. I was accused of playing survivalist and that playing survivalist is scummy. I wasn't playing survivalist but even if I had been, playing survivalist ISN'T inherently scummy. That is important.

As to your second point, are you arguing that I shouldn't be concerned with clearing my slot of suspicion? This seems like a silly argument given that upon entry to the game I was greeted with this post.

Hey whats up princess

you should probably start contributing because the way things look everyone is going to keep disagreeing about our top scumreads and then you will be the compromise lynch of the day at this rate

I also think you should reread the voting situation. You claim I bussed my partner at L-1. Klick was at L-2. My vote is the one that put Klick at L-1. Klick self hammered. I would understand suspicions of me being Klick's partner if I hammered but not for putting him at L-1.

As far as my "wifom" reason for calling Mac "not a werewolf," why is that a problem for you but Bacde's wifom link between me and DBK's claimed reads seemingly not a problem for you at all? I have other reasons for thinking Mac is Town but that was a good passage to highlight just one of them.

I meant Bulb and not Egg in that defending argument. Sorry about that.

[Princess Proton]

EXACTLY!

Me being alive today heavily points towards Princess scum, as I wasn't pushing the Autti lynch as hard as DBK was

So which argument are you going with? Are you going with the argument that the wolves are going after Town or that I'm a wolf and went after DBK for calling Autti scum? Because you have said both.

Also, have you ever been scum before? This is another argument you are fabricating to fit your read. If you have been scum before, and I'm assuming you have, you would know that someone loudly calling you scum doesn't make them a target specifically because people like you will say "obviously he was your target because he called you scum" It's silly. And you need to stop it.

[Princess Proton]

he has two wolves in the scum pile

why is it that the mafia for some reason keep ending up on the townier side of his reads?

So I see one wolf in his pile. Unless you have information on Egg being the other wolf?

Also, you are in his Town pile. Are you saying you are mafia? That would make things easy.

[Princess Proton]

Bacde. Stop it. Start reading the game. I'm not Autti. Autti wasn't scum. I'm not scum. Get with the program. Your refusal to recognize your tunnel is making you a liability.

[Princess Proton]

who is the last wolf then? Convince me

I listen to arguments

I'm looking here

Klick is scum. Like, definite scum.
Syr is probably mafia with Klick.
Icebox is probably werewolf.

Egg could be mafia too.

There seems to be a high likelihood that FBN included his partner in his "scum" reads.

[Princess Proton]

Frankly I think that's pretty fucking ludicrous.

You are entitled to your opinion. Even if it's wrong. You have to admit that wouldn't be the first time someone at L-1 fake bussed their partner in order to steer suspicion clear of them. So to call that "fucking ludicrous" is fucking ludicrous.

WIFOM link from Bacde? I didn't see this. Link?

There were two entire posts you missed, then. All of post 1073. And post 1074.

More recently post 1081 and post 1082.

[Princess Proton]

So you agree w/ bulbazak and you think its egg?

I'm looking at Egg and Syr.

[Princess Proton]

Princess is mafia, because her vote yesterday was an obvious bus. She was under a considerable amount of suspicion yesterday

There's no such thing as an obvious bus. Also, I didn't see all that much suspicion outside of my "welcome" post which was taken as snarky and not legit. There were no votes on the slot so it's not like there was any pressure there. The lack of pressure makes your theory really bad.

And you made that decision, analyzing all of the possible interactions of 40+ pages after only 17 minutes?

Don't be ridiculous. I didn't even read the 1st page. I looked at the current vote count and wanted to see if Klick was scum or an easy target. In ISO it was glaringly clear Klick was scum [I assumed wolf. I was wrong. So sue me.] and that the wagon was a good one so I voted. No further reading required.

However, the major difference between Bacde's case on you and your case on me/Egg is that Bacde actually has some non-WIFOM points against you.

Really? What non-WIFOM points?

@Princess Proton: I asked you this:

See response to Bulb above. Did not read.

She thought that Klick was a werewolf for "associative reasons"

yet never found a single reason that Klick was independently scum

Don't be silly. I had independent reasons. I just didn't need to build a case because the day was over like an hour later.

[Princess Proton]

Princess is definitely scum.

I will bet you $1 US that I'm Town.

I'm gonna let this slide, but please refrain from saying things like this in the future. At best it's a dumb rhetorical tactic, at worst it's a serious breech of site rules both in spirit and in letter. For those that need a refresher: Da Rules

10:1 odds I'm not a wolf.

Deal?

[Princess Proton]

At best it's a dumb rhetorical tactic

This one. Sorry. I wasn't going to link to my paypal account to accept payment. At least not without cutting you in on your 20%...

[Princess Proton]

why are we not quicklynching princess again?

Because they don't want to lynch Town. Why are YOU in such a hurry to quicklynch replacement Town?

guys if we don't lynch princess now she will always be lingering in our minds as a "what if we had made that lynch?" question

This is terrible. Absolutely terrible.

[Princess Proton]

But this one's even worse:

and now she's playing up the bet to emphasize her innocence, rather than emphasizing that she's sorry for breaking the rules

VOTE: Bacde

Tried to give you a chance to remove the tunnel. This desperation is at an all time high scum level.

[Princess Proton]

maybe you should discuss with us who the scum are rather than "he's tunnelling me!!!" which is not a scumtell in anyway.

You're right. Instead, let me show you why [above the anti-Town tunnel] Bacde has been masquerading as a wolf in Town's clothing:

whats the setup?

2 mafia and 2 werewolves I'm assuming?

I only know that b/c I'm both a mafia and a werewolf

Jokes. When someone else makes a joke post they are scum [see 1141]. Time to apply the logic to the accuser.

why not let a werewolf live on the off chance that they kill mafia?

So you beat on me for lynching mafia as a bus when I was looking for a wolf despite not having read page 1 where it was made clear only wolves can kill at night but you can hold this ridiculous opinion?

why worry about lynching for werewolves when we have a seer who can possibly find them?

To prove that wasn't a one time thing.

if you guys lynch fbn I will be very disappointed in you town, time out seriously

Seriously! Don't kill the wolf!!

I wonder why klick is looking specifically for werewolves?

Worried scum Klick was going to tag you?

@Fuzzy

can you make something else up to explain why you are voting for klick please? it would make me feel better

just bs something with better reasoning

Nice job, coach.

if you guys want to lynch a mafia, lynch klick

if you want to lynch a werewolf, lynch fuzzy

Eerily accurate. Like - not Town levels of accuracy.

wasn't there a wagon on you when I replaced in that I completely ignored to start the klick wagon

But... trying to convince people you are Town is scummy, scum!

Klick is probably mafia though which means we need to focus on lynching that before we get to fuzzy

Why are we still hunting mafia before the killing role??

That's about as far into this terrible meta as I feel like going right now. There's enough cognitive dissonance here to choke a donkey and pay for a trip to the gallows.

[Princess Proton]

are you suggesting he's a member of both and bussing?

I'm suggesting he's a member of one and bussing and possibly had info on the other. Though I admit I don't know if scum PR's make sense in this setup now that I think it through a bit more.

UNVOTE: Bacde

So my vote was mostly omgus. :/

@Bacde you should still read that though. It shows you where you claim to believe things but are not applying them equally in regards to your read on me. And that's not a good thing.

[Princess Proton]

Princess what I got out of that post is that you are willing to look for evidence to fit a case, rather than the other way around

Right. That's what I'm saying about you. Holding up a mirror, so to speak.

Why did you OMGUS vote me after I unvoted you?

Unvoting someone at L-1 doesn't make them Town. You can push for a lynch on a Townie without actually being on their wagon. This isn't news to either of us.

This is only my 2nd game on this site and I replaced in to both of them. I suspect we will be in games together in the future. While I don't care about this game so much as a replacement, I'm trying to establish a strong meta understanding of you for future games where it may be more important to me. I feel as though my "evidence to fit the case" exercise has been informative. You know what you are doing and I know you know that I know now. Your alignment at the end of the game will tell me how to read you in the future.

[Princess Proton]

The first thing she does when she replaces in is say that she is town. This seems forced and overdone, as the first thing town would say would not be "I'm town."

How can you possibly believe this when you just quoted why I would be motivated to replace in and say that I'm Town?

Spoiler:

you should probably start contributing because the way things look everyone is going to keep disagreeing about our top scumreads and then you will be the compromise lynch of the day at this rate

o7

I'm Town. Just found the thread. Reading now.

This sounds like a rubbish argument.

Translation: "Thanks partner for helping me with the towncred!"

Which is exactly why your wifom argument is rubbish. Klick didn't even have a chance to distance from me, which is what I would ideally want as a Klick partner. This doesn't help with my "Princess isn't wolf argument" but at least should indicate I'm not mafia.

I was actually going to say your princess-mafia case is pretty good

No. No it really isn't. If anything, it illustrates why I wouldn't be mafia.

If Princess flips mafia, Egg is wolf. If Princess flips wolf, Egg is town and Thene is mafia.

And when

Princess flips VT

?

well she made the stupid bet and then admitted it was rhetorical and never going to happen.

Actually, I said I was never going to have to pay and was going to forgive the debt for everyone that owed me. But that's a hilarious misrepresentation of what I said.

[Princess Proton]

Bacde, Bulb, ya'll need to git yer asses on this wagon

I'd really like an answer to this first.

And when Princess flips VT?

[Princess Proton]

Why would I leave the "I am Town" part out? Are you saying you have never seen a Town person replace into a slot and say that they were Town? You are being silly.

You didn't even quote Ghostbusters right. I am disappointed. Did it ever occur to you that you should actually lynch from the Egg/Thene pool instead since your case on me is nonsense and wifom?

And Egg, I didn't say I'm not playing to win I simply stated why I'm not fighting this mislynch harder than I am. I think the information from my wagon, how it was formed, and who pushed it could actually help. It's not like I came in here and threw my hands up in the air saying, "well even though I'm Town I think you should just lynch my slot." That's a very weak push. Everything you guys are throwing at this wagon is laughably weak. And it will be exposed in due course.

[Princess Proton]

Translation: "Lynch those guys! They're way scummier than I am!"

You had to parse that through a translator? I was fairly sure that statement was clear.

[Princess Proton]

WHY DOES SHE NEVER RESPOND TO ME

Because I don't like you.

Actually because I didn't see a real question that wasn't masquerading as an accusation. If you have a real question or require clarification I'd be happy to help.

[Princess Proton]

yes I do know what I'm doing

"evidence to fit the case"

And that makes me sad.

[Princess Proton]

why am I supposed to think you are town again?

Pshh. You guys never gave me a chance to BE Town. I'm introduced to the game and you immediately swoop in and tell me I'm going to be lynched before I've even had a chance to log in. And it has been an avalanche of attacks from BEFORE my first post. This is something you'll need to remember in future games if you actually intend to read a replacement slot rather than pushing through a nonsensical mislynch based on nothing but wifom and gut.

[Princess Proton]

If this is the case, how do you defend against people saying "you're not Town because you claimed to be Town when you replaced into a scummy slot?" That's the big argument against my slot currently. Oh, that and because I had the audacity to come in and vote for scum in 17 minutes [or whatever the timing was].

Is there an actual case on this slot outside of this nonsense?

[Princess Proton]

1. Who said that and where? I don't see it.

The first thing she does when she replaces in is say that she is town. This seems forced and overdone

I call out that logic that in post 1177.

2. Not the "you got caught trying to fake towncred" argument?

No. Because that's silly. Town can actually look for legitimate "towncred" when their slot is being mislynched so that's a non issue.

3. There are two ways of looking at this, both of which imply scumminess:
A. You came in and voted for the top wagon. This is a fairly common move for Scum because it can be well justified. Deadline was not that soon, and if you were Town I would have expected you to try to make the most informed decision possible, questioning and reading as much as you were able before voting.
B. You came in and voted for your partner. (This way assumes that you are Mafia which I personally would disagree with.) (It has been argued half to death by Bacde and I think Egg, so I'll leave it at that for now.)

That's a false dilemma. There's actually a 3rd way of looking at it, which is not presented here and happens to be the situation. It goes like this.
C.

I lynched him thinking he was the other werewolf. My goal was to take out one killing faction if at all possible. He was anti-Town so it didn't really matter to me as Town.

4. on the offchance you are Town you may want to look into the matter yourself.

I have. There isn't a case. That's why I asked for one.

Evidence that no one is actually interested in hearing me defend my slot or present an actual case?

Also requesting a hammer on Princess Scum.

I'm thinkin about the hammer

when am I gonna do it?

Hillarious banter and all, but not actually contributing anything of substance or attempting to resolve the Autti/PP slot. So your high horse sermon about how all I had to do was come in here and be obvtown is frankly nonsense and completely unrealistic given the actual game state. If Syryana or Bacde, for example, were interested in resolving the game rather than tunneling on this slot, they would be providing evidence as requested numerous times. And no, I'm not going to defend "gut." "Gut" isn't a case.

[Princess Proton]

I'm currently thinking TNE if she flips maf, Bulb if she flips WW

I asked this before but humor me, what happens WHEN I flip VT?

[Princess Proton]

Again. Funny. And yet, you haven't answered the question nor have you presented a case not based on gut or wifom. What's a girl to do?

[Princess Proton]

your idea is the definition of ridiculous anyway because it assumes that: 1) scum know who is on the other team, and 2) that they would play in a way that YOU feel is optimal for the situation, even though there would be alot of ways to play moving forward

What? Someone reading the game that isn't also falling for the "gut/wifom" tunnel I can't defend against? Amazeballs.

[Princess Proton]

You have not even attempted to refute my points. Neither do they fall into the "gut/WIFOM" category.

Really? I'm looking for your case on me in ISO. As expected, it doesn't exist.

Vote: Princess

For residual Autti scumminess.

Unless this your case on me?

I responded to your 1199 stuff which you acknowledge in 1207. So can you link to me those non "gut/WIFOM" points that I haven't responded to yet? I have been begging for someone to show me these points for several days now so I would obviously be overjoyed to have something to do.

[Princess Proton]

she is definitely scum since she never intended to pay out.

Incorrect. I never intended to COLLECT payment. Go read again.

You still lynched VT and need to figure out what you are going to do with that information.

[Princess Proton]

I'm pretty sure PP is playing the "I'm going to pretend I think I'm lynched so here's my final hurrah" card which scum likes to do

Well if I'm not lynched I would still like an answer to this

So can you link to me those non "gut/WIFOM" points that I haven't responded to yet? I have been begging for someone to show me these points for several days now so I would obviously be overjoyed to have something to do.

Anyone can feel free to answer. It doesn't have to be GM.

[Princess Proton]

she is definitely scum since she never intended to pay out.

Here's the post.

I wasn't going to link to my paypal account to accept payment. At least not without cutting you in on your 20%...

See the "to accept payment" part? Yeah. That's quite different from what you are stating.

PE: I'll get to Bacde next.

[Princess Proton]

howabout that you randomly said that Klick was going to be a wolf for no good reason?

I said wolf for good reason. Remember this post?

There was nothing "random" about calling Klick the last werewolf. I saw a relational tell between Klick and FBN. FBN had 4 posts in a row [via ISO] beginning with 806 where he swears up and down that Klick is mafia. Sounded like a bus attempt.

[Princess Proton]

not to mention that you hammered like 20 minutes into the game that you replaced into. I don't think I've ever felt confident enough to hammer within 20 minutes of replacing in as town

This is just wrong. Klick self-hammered. I put Klick at L-1. I feel like maybe I have said this before.

You claim I bussed my partner at L-1. Klick was at L-2. My vote is the one that put Klick at L-1. Klick self hammered. I would understand suspicions of me being Klick's partner if I hammered but not for putting him at L-1.

[Princess Proton]

PP stop fighting your already spoken for death

Why would I do that? I'm the only person in this game that I know is Town. I want the people on my wagon to be on record as to why they are on the wagon. That will help Town more later than a VT guessing at who might be mafia and who might be wolf. Also, I've been too busy trying to stop the tunnel on me to formulate a solid read. No one is on my wagon for a good reason so that makes this impossible to figure out. Which I guess is good for the last couple of scum. Good luck sorting out this mess.

[Princess Proton]

not posting reads after your own lynch is tantamount to a fucking scum claim

Not really. For future reference this is tantamount to a replacement not able to play the game due to a fuzzy logic tunnel that resulted in an unnecessary VT lynch. I played fully to my wincon.

[Princess Proton]

Why didn't you fully read the game when you first replaced in?

Because I didn't need to? Because I was lazy? Pick one.

[Princess Proton]

Princess, take this as your formal fucking warning.

Consider me warned. And underwhelmed. Why don't you put your fancy shiny hammer in your pocket and make people post logical reasons for being on my wagon in the first place? Because THAT is what is going to net you scum going forward. Not my stupid uninformed VT reads. Who gives a crap about my reads? They wont be worth the electrons required to print the fonts after my VT flip. Because NOBODY cares about the reads of dead VT. Pretending otherwise is nonsense.

I've been fine with my lynch going down as long as people are on record as to why they were on my wagon in the first place. And don't give me any of this "because you didn't post reads - waaah waaah waaah" nonsense because that's all pomp and an attempt at hand waving rather than answering what should be a simple question. I have asked countless times for people to simply quote a non wifom/gut reason for my slot being scum. All I get back is "because..." Which isn't really an answer. So I push it again. "Well... uh... there are reasons! They have been stated." Great. So link to one. LINK TO

ONE

.

[Princess Proton]

Why didn't you need to?

Because I found scum in like 1 minute. Confirmed it in 10.

Why are you pretending like a. I haven't already responded to 1153 and b. that's a case not based in wifom and gut? Your big "case" is that I said I was Town when I replaced in. I already told you why you are stupid for pretending I would have no reason for saying I'm Town. I even quoted the post that greeted me that would cause me to claim I was Town. So yeah, you aren't listening. And you aren't making a case.

[Princess Proton]

if anyone here is gonna take your reads to heart, it's me

I know it looks OMGUSy but Bulb pretending to have a case, realizing he doesn't have one, then throwing something up on the screen that he forgot I already addressed looks pretty freaking fishy to me.

I also find it hard to believe both Bacde and Syrana are Town. Of the two I'm leaning scum on Syryana. Make that jackoff put in some effort or string him up.

Not sure what to make of Mac or GM. They are likely VT skimming the thread.

I think Egg is the next easy mislynch. Don't let it through.

I had TNE Town. You're just solidifying that read.

Good luck.

[Princess Proton]

My case is that you hopped onto the biggest wagon of the day to save yourself, since you were likely to be lynched soon.

See all this stuff right here? You made it all up in your head. I'm not going to keep relinking the game for you but this has been addressed. And it's all based on confirmation bias. Which is pretty much the same as "gut." That would all make sense if it had been done by someone that had already flipped Town but has no business in a case on a person whose alignment you couldn't possibly know. So that tells me that you likely knew the alignments of other players. Like your partners.

[Princess Proton]

You said that no one had a case on you, and that if they did, they should link it. I posted my case. Don't start that crap, especially when you asked for it.

Nope. This is what I asked for.

I have asked countless times for people to simply

quote a non wifom/gut reason

for my slot being scum.

You failed to deliver.

[Princess Proton]

it would be awesome to have her reads.

You already have my reads. The fact some of you are pretending I haven't posted my reads confirms that this lynch was going to go through regardless of what I had to say.

she acts like someone that has already lost.

Maybe because I already replaced into a Town slot and no one gives a shit about it? AND, see above. Finally, I don't give two fucks about this game. Was never mine to win or lose.