Micro 161: No-Newbie Newbie (over)

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Hi guys

- f

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haterz

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Neither of us do RVS. I personally wouldn't say that it has no value at all. It's just not my thing. Buldermar may have more rigorous reasons for eschewing it.

- f

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Neither of us do RVS. I personally wouldn't say that it has no value at all. It's just not my thing. Buldermar may have more rigorous reasons for eschewing it.

- f

Indeed, I personally would say that it has no value at all.

- b

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I think RVS has value, first as it acts as an icebreaker and helps get conversation moving; although this can also be accomplished by not RV’ing as it is almost always commented on. However, I think it has even more value later as it helps establish connections between players. I don’t think I’ve ever seen scum RV their partner so it may be useful after scum flips.

We're not talking about the same thing, it seems. I'm talking about RV's, an abbreviation of random votes, which by definition cannot help establish any connections (or they wouldn't be random).

I've yet to see a conversation that couldn't have been instigated without random votes prior to it. For instance, in this very game, the first debate is the one we're having now and that started with a question, not with a random vote. I don't see how there was any ice to break, nor do I see how any amount of random votes supposedly could have broken such ice.

- b

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IME someone not doing RVS is one of the fastest ways to move the game out of RVS and into discussions where taking a stand is easy for town players.

- f

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What is generally called RV’ing is a misnomer its really more voting for BS reasons. Very few people actually use a RNG to determine their vote and of those that claim that they do I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them are lying about it. Therefore I still think RVS’ing helps create connections and is a pro-town action.

If everybody entered the games with a simple “hi” like you did and that was the accepted site meta how would that lead to questions and help move us out of RVS?

I've been playing forum mafia elsewhere for years. RVS doesn't exist on those sites. People start the game with discussion of the flavor, they fuss at chronic lurkers and shit posters, policy vote, etc. Something strikes an off note, and we're off. Every game has a more or less unique start. It's interesting. You're not looking for some slight variation on a theme to unravel.

RVS kind of cheapens the early votes. Nobody has to ask "why?" when they are voted or otherwise flinch at the attention a vote brings because it's just RVS. The only slight utility I see to it is that in a game where most of the players don't know each other or know how to get things started, there's a starting place. Problem is, it's a somewhat safe starting place for scum.

- f

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hi

- RC

both enigmatic and ironic. I like your style.

- f

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I've been playing forum mafia elsewhere for years. RVS doesn't exist on those sites. People start the game with discussion of the flavor, they fuss at chronic lurkers and shit posters, policy vote, etc. Something strikes an off note, and we're off. Every game has a more or less unique start. It's interesting. You're not looking for some slight variation on a theme to unravel.

RVS kind of cheapens the early votes. Nobody has to ask "why?" when they are voted or otherwise flinch at the attention a vote brings because it's just RVS. The only slight utility I see to it is that in a game where most of the players don't know each other or know how to get things started, there's a starting place. Problem is, it's a somewhat safe starting place for scum.

- f

I don’t know how the presence of a random vote would prevent any of the discussion you’ve mentioned.

I also don’t know of a safer way for scum to enter a game than to just say “hi”.

You don’t have to worry about offending anybody or explaining your vote and you sure can’t get an OMGUS vote because of it

.

No, I just get "y u no RVS????" attention and last I checked I'm the lynch vote leader.

No RVS is definitely the way to stay under the radar.

- f

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For your meta-stalking pleasure

fferyllt - http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=20541

buldermar - http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=19504

I keep my wiki page up to date.

- f

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VOTE: 2

Their posts seem to be a bit... spaced out

Is this a random vote or a policy vote?

2 are both heads in agreement with not casting a random vote? Do you not think random voting has any value?

Random vote based on their avatar.

So if I vote you because I think you're scum, can I claim that it's a random vote based on my estimation of your alignment as well?

- b

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I think I found a scum already. Not going to say who just yet cause I don't want the scumteam to attack me but just letting you know I'm onto you.

You don't want the scum team to attack you and therefore wont be telling us who you supposedly identified as scum? How does that even make sense?

- b

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Considering in the majority of games fferylt (Or however it's spelt) and Buldermar play both don't seem to RVS a lot, with fferylt entering many games in this way,

although Buldermar seems to enter many games by self-voting.

Many? I'm pretty sure that I've only done it a few times. How many games did you check and in how many of them did I self-vote?

- b

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I would say it's a null tell atm, considering this can easily be used to the advantage of scum-2, and could simply be average play for town-2

How would it be advantageous for us not to random vote?

- b

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I think I found a scum already. Not going to say who just yet cause I don't want the scumteam to attack me but just letting you know I'm onto you.

Also what is the actual point of this post?

- b

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And I wouldn’t worry too much about being the vote leader yet they are still “cheap” votes

I'm pretty sure neither of us are worried - at least I know I'm not.

- b

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I knew you two were not worried at this point I have played with you both... Well Bulder a lot more though... And fery was in a hydra with Orc. (Game is done so now I can talk about it )

What were you in that game, and how did it go?

- b

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Orcinus hammered too quickly - we needed to fluff post for about 6 more pages. :/

- f

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I swear Majiffy is scum in almost every game he plays xD

- b

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Maybe I just don't remember the games in which he is town as clearly...

- b

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Sleep well.

- b

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If 2 had said "hi" in this game but there was consistent evidence to support that they *both* played rvs in other games, then yes, they would probably be scum

ehh I know fery is not big on RVS oh other head is bulder? yeah that is not a scum tell in their case...

No, I just get "y u no RVS????" attention and last I checked I'm the lynch vote leader.

No RVS is definitely the way to stay under the radar.

- f

I’m in agreement that 2 not casting a random vote is a null tell. My premise is that there is value in casting a random vote and his arguments against random voting have not shifted my opinion.

Good thing I haven't tried to shift your opinion.

-f

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I also don’t know of a safer way for scum to enter a game than to just say “hi”.

Then why not vote me?

---

I think I found a scum already. Not going to say who just yet cause I don't want the scumteam to attack me but just letting you know I'm onto you.

I take it by the fact that you didn't move your vote that I am the person you speak of?

---

² is posting ² many times.

VOTE: ²

We are ² people.

Certainly can't say you're posting ² much.

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^^
- b

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Who's cheapvoting? My vote is 100% serious.

I post this and not ONE PERSON (or ² people) EVEN

MENTIONS

IT?

WHAT



WHAT IS THIS

You don't exist. You just think you are posting on a message board. go study or something.

- f

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UGGH scratch that IP comment sorry wrong game damnit...

Anyways yeah GM and RC sorry about that...

Really?

Because buldermar and I think that A_Stone's is the funky looking vote.

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hmm eeeh I kinda was leaning town on him so far he seems to be offering a bit more discussion... I will ISO him though.

You also seem to be leaning scum on post 60, which both of ff and I think is more likely to come from town.

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So two of the people who are currently voting us went on V/LA, and the 3rd one is likely town.

Rondar, do you have any thoughts to share?

- b

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OH DAMN 2

POST SIXTY

IS

KINDA WACK

but coming from RC... interesting.

Yeah, where the hell is Rondar anyway? He's not the most active fellow ever as I recall but I'd have thought he'd be here by now...

I think scum-RC would come up with some sort of lame excuse for putting us on L-2.

- b

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@ GM I'm finding it interesting. Wonder if it is for the same reasons.

Also interesting is that he's voting a player buldermar and I are currently pretty suspicious of.

@syndromeofatown, in post 86 you said that you wouldn't just move your vote because it would show who you are suspicious of, then you told RC that he is not the one you are suspicious of.

And then you moved your vote.

puzzling.

- f

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I take it by the fact that you didn't move your vote that I am the person you speak of?

Obviously if I'm not going to say who it is then I'm not going to just move my vote because that would be the same as just saying who it is. You weren't the person I was thinking of at the time, but your guilty conscious is noted... Actually, seriously, no, I don't think you're scum though.

UNVOTE: RedCoyote
VOTE: A Stone

Why did you just move your vote when you were not going to just move your vote?

What are you voting A_Stone for?

- b

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k

Will you be answering my questions?

- b

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The only game I played with him IIRC is the marathon game, and that was over a year ago. I had barely started on site and my bf NS drug me into a game with him and a bunch of other peeps... DV was our cop, NS and I were both VT. CDB and Syndrome were the scum team, and they cooked a play which worked of shooting NS at night and putting the blame on me. My browser was going wonky, and I got lynched before I could make a case on Syndrome for shooting NS.

what post is this in reply to?

- f

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So what do you think of his play in this game?

- f

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@RC buldermar and I are both prolific posters. We're approaching the game as masons sharing 1 vote, basically. In the case where we questioned soat, we had discussed our reactions to his post (and to A_Stone's and to your posts) via chat, but miscued on who was going to make the post. I think the timestamps are a minute apart.

Anyway, our posting rate is kind of depressed so far because this game is moving horrifically slowly from my view. If we're bothering you already, unfortunately it will almost surely get worse.

- f

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It's the truth, Rach. He's flooding the thread with silliness. He's overcompensating to make it look as though he has a strong presence. Sometimes two heads are better than one, but I do not need to see a Hydra posting something and then the second head confirming what the first head says. Less is more.

Go check every single game I've ever played and you'll see that this is just what I do.

And I think that having the second head confirming is pro-town. By not doing it we could,i if we were scum, pretend that the second head got a different perspective on something and backpeddal out of an unfortunate situation/read.

- b

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Mod

, how many of these lovely pictures do you have? I love these sort of jokes.

I only now noticed it - brilliant xD

- b

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Buldermar and I wondered about your reasons because we both think A_Stone looks pretty suspicious.

- f

gah. Hopefully I'll avoid posting with my main after this.

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The main thing is he's used a whole lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing (at least nothing relevant to the game/finding scum) and his RVS vote seems... overreasoned I guess would be the word?

That's what we think we're seeing in his posts, yes. I've been wondering if it struck anyone else that way.

- f

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goodmorning, are you going to explain why your vote on us isn't RVS?

- f

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Well, you did acknowledge that Slimer was Town because she did that... Unless I misread

It was at least 75% joking, but yeah, I'd forgotten that.

Who's cheapvoting? My vote is 100% serious.

goodmorning, are you going to explain why your vote on us isn't RVS?

- f

I don't plan to, seeing as it is.

RVS is srs bznz.

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his RVS vote seems... overreasoned I guess would be the word?

He made a space pun. That's your definition of over-reasoning? Interesting.

I'll be coming back to this later.

- f

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Why did you just move your vote when you were not going to just move your vote?

What are you voting A_Stone for?

What's the problem? Did I do something wrong?

are you saying I should stay on redcoyote even though my gut is telling me town on him?? would you rather I just unvote and not vote anyone?

I think I've made it pretty clear already what I want you to do, and I don't buy that you've somehow missed it.

- b

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my reason for anything this early in the game is basically idk gut

Except you claimed that you were on to something.

- b

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fery just open up a 2nd browser and log in on the hydra on that one that way you dont keep doing that lol.

That doesn't help if you accidentally post from the wrong browser window.

- b

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Welcome ETL. cool avatar.

- f

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I'm mostly caught up. This post is troubling. Why did 2 feel the need to point out that their playstyle was "pro-town".

An argument was made that we should not be confirming each others reads - as if it would be enough merely to have one of us post his/her opinion. I made the counter-argument that having us confirm each others reads is inherently pro-town because we can't backpeddal. What's troubling about that?

- b

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Then, followed by this to SoaT, who was already giving me scumvibes:

What does SoaT mean?

- b

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Syndrome of a town and I dont think it needed to be specifically said that it was pro-town, if indeed it came from a town perspective.

Okay, I did.

- b

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Rach, do you have any town reads and/or scum reads?

- b

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I didn't say you were voting them. I asked you why I shouldn't vote them, since you wanted to know why I should.

If there isn't a reason not to vote, you should vote. If there isn't a reason to vote, you should not vote. These are sides of the same logical coin, so you guys are getting nowhere if you're merely going to answer each question with its negation.

- b

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You've only done it once, I feel stupid now :/

At least you're being honest about your exaggeration now.

- b

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VOTE: 2

Their posts seem to be a bit... spaced out

Is this a random vote or a policy vote?

2 are both heads in agreement with not casting a random vote? Do you not think random voting has any value?

Random vote based on their avatar.

So if I vote you because I think you're scum, can I claim that it's a random vote based on my estimation of your alignment as well?

- b

Can you rephrase this coherently?

It is coherent already, but I'll rephrase it in a way I think you'll understand. If you base your vote on my avatar, it's not random. If you insist that a vote can be random when it's based on something (it being an avatar or an estimation of an alignment), I can just as well insist that my vote is random when it's based on my estimation of your alignment.

- b

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I would say it's a null tell atm, considering this can easily be used to the advantage of scum-2, and could simply be average play for town-2

How would it be advantageous for us not to random vote?

- b

It's always good to play to your town meta, if you had random voted it would have raised some questions from the people you had played with.

This is backwards.

If it is advantageous for scum-us not to random vote because we havn't done it as town before, that merely reflects you being incapable of properly analysing previous games that we've played. That is, you're not applying the information you have optimally. This holds true for any circumstances where the lack of that very information would leave to a better decision than the decision made with the information available, and this is an example.

- b

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^^ leave should be lead.

- b

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Why do you make posts like this, your posts as a hydra should be seamless, why do you see a need to reinforce your views?

I disagree with your premise.

- b

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Again? You've said that you two are talking together in chat. Why are you making posts explicitly for the purpose of looking town? Is that not something more likely for scum to do?

Once again I disagree with your premise.

- b

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And yet you *never* did, I thought it obvious after #23 that it was a joke, any reason why you didn't see it that way?

I personally didn't get the joke the first time around, and I attribute that largely to the fact that I do not live in an english-talking country.

- b

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2 saw the use of soat in quote format, along with evidence of who it was. With this evidence,

Firstly, I was responding to RedCayot, not SoaT. Secondly, even if I was responding to SoaT, I may not have realized what the abbreviation meant because I was responding to the person through the quote of another person (i.e., I didn't make that abbreviation myself).

Finally, and most importantly, what would the scum motivation for acting as if I don't understand that abbreviation if I actually did be?

I think you're pretending to think that you've found something to launch some sort of attack on us. I think your process went something like this: you read all of our posts in ISO, and decided to attack anything you could find. You noticed this and thought "hey, this could be a great thing to attack" without thinking about whether it actually made any sense from a scum perspective. Why did you do that? It's a subtle scum-slip, but people make it all the time. As scum, they forget the fact that your motivation shouldn't be winning arguments, launching attacks or finding mistakes, but look at posts that can only be motivated by a scum perspective. You fall victim of a) launching an attack that completely ignores what potentially would be scum motivated and what wouldn't, b) aims at finding mistakes (such as me not realizing what SoaT was an abbreviation of - despite it being obvious that there couldn't be any scum motivation for pretending to have missed this), and possible c) aimed at winning arguments (although this one is more debatable).

Either way, I feel these are sufficient reasons to establish quite a strong scum read on you, so I'm going to vote you unless that would put you on L-1 (in which case I'll postpone voting you until I've talked to ff). Will read the remainder of the posts subsequent to the one I'm quoting now first, though.

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Seems off to me. It was obviously a player, why did the question need to be asked?

It wasn't obvious to me, or I wouldn't have asked it. Again: what's the scum motivation behind pretending not to know what it meant? Why would scum-me be less likely to know what it meant than town-me? These are two questions that must be answered in order to justify you thinking that it "seems off". If you don't answer these questions, I'm inclined to think that the "seems off" part is just putting seeds out there and hoping that people jumps on this.

- b

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-f & -b, why use two posts when yu could just sign it as both?

Because we want to. How is this related to our alignment?

- b

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VOTE: A_Stone

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A_Stone, is your vote on us still random? If not, in what post did you state that it was no longer a random vote? If you didn't state this already, what made it not random specifically?

- b

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3. By asking him "why not vote" I was mainly requesting a clarification of his position.
4. He declined to give one.

The same holds true for you. He could just repeat his own question, then you could do the same, and this process could continue

ad nauseum

.

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^^ - b

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his RVS vote seems... overreasoned I guess would be the word?

He made a space pun. That's your definition of over-reasoning? Interesting.

I'll be coming back to this later.

- f

And yet you *never* did, I thought it obvious after #23 that it was a joke, any reason why you didn't see it that way?

And this is what I wanted to see before I came back to it - I wanted more posts from you to firm up my initial impression that you were propping up a random vote by characterizing our posts about RVS as "arguments" we were trying to win rather than reasons why we personally don't do RVS.

And what I see is more of the same. It is scummy to play as a hydra while keeping the two individuals' posts recognizable. It is scummy to not recognize an abbreviation, or to not ask about it the first time it appears in thread.

Buldermar and I don't consult each other on every single post. We are playing this game as though we're masons who share a single vote. When we are speaking for each other or speaking about our consensus about game events or players, we'll make that clear. When we are not speaking for each other, we'll try to make that clear as well.

We are in agreement about our vote.

-f

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I'll do us all a favour and
tl;dr - This is a semantic game it is not possible to win.
other tl;dr - "It's not really random if it's based on something, even something meaningless; therefore I can say it's random if it's based on something meaningful since you say it's random when based on something meaningless"

I'd be willing to accept it being random if it was based on for instance a random generator, even when it strictly speaking still isn't entirely random. It's not a game of semantics, because I'm winning the argument even using a loose definition of the term "randomness".

- b

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Scared you? How so?

- f

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@191: My point there is that the definition of "random" as in "RVS" is something like "off the cuff, with or without bullshit fake justification". It doesn't actually mean random, though I think a lot of people just scan the playerlist and go "... that one" and then come up with a silly reason for voting them later, so in that sense it is random, but I'm not going any further than that on this topic because it's pretty distracting from the issues at hand, namely, WHO WAS PHONE??? WHO IS SCUM?

Also the fact that you two just interspersed posts in all that is quite frankly scary to me.

Alright, I agree that we shouldn't go into more details about the term "randomness" and its application.

Our posts interspersed because I told ff on gchat that I voted A_stone and that she could read my posts if she felt like it. She then said she were going to respond to one of his posts. We usually confront each other when something happens in this game, and we're both a bit annoyed with the slow pace of it.

- b

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I was going to say that it doesn't feel that slow to me, but that's just because of you guys I think.

I take that as a compliment - so thanks =)

- b

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Rach what are your reads atm?

- f

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What about his ISO stood out to you?

- f

Damn it. I knew right after I clicked the submit button I'd done this.

- f

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Check how almost everything refers to you.

Especially about you not doing RVS

Not that different from A_Stone, actually.

What did you think of Mr E Roll's post 90?

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What about it?

I liked the post. I can't remember if buldermar also thought it seemed to come from a town PoV. I think so.

- f

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RVS is over!

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These are fferyllt reads. buldermar and I talked about our reads around page 6 but haven't had a comprehensive discussion since then - just tactical discussion about specific posts/players. I'll be surprised if our reads are radically different.

Leaning town

Red Coyote
Especially the Lies

Null/Town

Goodmorning
Mr E Roll

Null

Rach
soat (this one fell overnight)
TheNewEarth (this one fell recently)

Null/Scum

A Stone

[²]

What about it?

I liked the post. I can't remember if buldermar also thought it seemed to come from a town PoV. I think so.

- f

I'm undecided, put if you put a gun to my head I'd say from a town PoV.

- b

[²]

As I said, it was a random vote. I was attempting a reaction test and nobody even gave a shit.

Surprisingly, nobody gives a shit about a vote that has been placed for a random/arbitrary reason.

- b

[²]

My vote was a joke vote, a joke is not inherently serious, and therefore it is random.

A non-serious joke does not automatically make for a random joke, but we're done with discussing the term "randomness". I'm aware of how you apply it, I just disagree with that application.

- b

[²]

It looked off to me? I thought it was unnecessary, it was obviously a player and I didn't see why it needed to be asked.

I didn't say it was necessarily scummy, I just saw no reason to ask it.

You were clearly insinuating that this would be a scum-tell. Saying "it looked off" does not satisfy my question about what the scum motivation would be. For it to be a scum-tell, it has to be motivated by alignment. If it looks equally off when it comes from town and scum, what is then the purpose of pointing it out? I don't buy this explanation. You tried to sell it as a scum-tell, and now you're retracting it and asserting that you merely thought it looked off and wasn't worried about it coming from town or scum.

- b

[²]

Thank God that isn't what I was doing.

I think it was.

[²]

I suppose a more apt word for what I meant by off was *interesting*

I thought that after seeing this post, and other posts mentioning soat, you would have garnered the meaning of soat.

You tried to pass it off as a scum-tell: this is backpedaling.

- b

[²]

UNVOTE:

I think I'll unvote now that RVS is over.

Translation: I think I'll act as if my vote was always just a random vote - despite the fact that I was tunneling like crazy on ² - because I got called out on something I can't refute.

- b

[²]

Question for everyone: What is your read on Mr E?

I havn't noticed anything in particular, so lean town I suppose.

- b

[²]

² is working overtime to let us know he's town. I don't need him to tell me he's town. I don't need one head agreeing with the other head. That's just noise. That's cluttering the thread with junk.

We're town, isn't that right f?

[²]

I don't know what this means. What leave? What should be lead? Should I only listen to -f and not -b?

It means that leave should be replaced with lead.

- b

[²]

Why are you making 9 posts in a row? Posts like 178 and 179 are absolute garbage posts that only exist to needlessly inflate your post count and reduce the overall readability of the thread.

I disagree with this premise as well.

[²]

Maybe you posting 10 times more than every other player fools tne and goodmorning, but it sure as hell doesn't fool me. Quality > quantity.

Maybe I'm posting both quality and quantity.

- b

[²]

Btw, 2, the Spoilered part of my post was addressed to you

I'm sorry that I didn't get around to responding to it sooner.

- b

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When I said it was serious, that was a reaction test.

Oh, well, it still failed.

- b

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I am quite convinced about A_Stone being scum - even more than I was before.

- b

[²]

Wait a second, I think I've found something

In this post by RedCoyote

This is what A_Stone now claims is merely "interesting" and not something he ever thought was a "scum-tell". I think it's clearly between the lines - especially given that this is only the last part of a longer case on us - that he tries to pass this off as a scum-tell.

- b

[²]

² is working overtime to let us know he's town. I don't need him to tell me he's town. I don't need one head agreeing with the other head. That's just noise. That's cluttering the thread with junk.

We're town, isn't that right f?

Ordinarily I would say yes but I'm really worried about agreeing with you and cluttering up the thread.

- f

[²]

I still want to know why you had to ask, you said it wasn't obvious to you it was a player, and yet the post beforehand said he was giving him scumvibes? I don't see *how* the acronym wasn't apparent, everyone else understood it.

Yes you do, but you have to pretend not to at this point to backpedal out of this. It's not going to work.

- b

[²]

You're overthinking this way too much, my vote on you *was* random.

Yes, the initial vote. Then you started tunneling. Then I asked you if it was random, which you didn't answer. Then, when you ran into some trouble, you unvoted me, asserting that the vote had always been random.

- b

[²]

This post indicates otherwise, to bring up just one example (of many).

I never claimed every single one of my posts lives up to these criteria.

- b

[²]

So.... where is your response?

I responded to what I found relevant to respond to. If I missed something that you'd like me to respond to, point it out.

- b

[²]

Conclusion: A_Stone is looking pretty scummy, but so is 2. Bussing maybe? I don't know, but I'm going back to 2; the recent posts have been nothing but distraction. There's been no real content, discussion or actual responses to anyone (go ahead, go look, I just did).

VOTE: 2

This is not true. Perhaps you're simple not emotionally or intellectually capable of understanding the concerns I've raised regarding A_stone. In fact, you thinking that this could be bussing would suggest just that. f will hate me for this post, but I'm not going to phrase it in any diplomatic way.

- b

[²]

Liking SoaT a lot more for town, both for the vote and for the push back.

- f

[²]

Liking SoaT a lot more for town, both for the vote and for the push back.

- f

Weren't you the one talking about assessing actions based on whether it was town-motivated or scum-motivated? What town motivation is there in randomly voting someone and not sharing the thought process behind it? Maybe he saw something the rest of us missed? Instead of just explaining it, he gave me attitude.

Rach's posts so far this game have been terrible. buldermar and I have both brought her up in our convos. our experience (more bulder's than mine - I have played one completed game with her) is that she posts like this regardless of alignment, but it's still terrible. soat reacting to her posts the way he did makes town sense to us. My initial read of soat was town. It softened a bit toward null, but those two posts firmed the read back up, and to me that was comment-worthy.

- f

[²]

uhhhh...

When you come back after some sleep could you like rephrase that into something more understandable?

Thanks

Basically, I have a really strong case if gut and associative tells are a really strong case, which intellectually they aren't.

Also I'm sad that you didn't mention that we have a game together :[

so...are you thinking hold on to the case and see if something objective develops? or lay out the case and see what others make of it?

- f

[²]

Rach's posts so far this game have been terrible. buldermar and I have both brought her up in our convos. our experience (more bulder's than mine - I have played one completed game with her) is that she posts like this regardless of alignment, but it's still terrible

If her posts so far have been completely terrible why did you have her as a null read?

meta. the overall lack of content is a good match for the borkgame I played with her (as part of another hydra), though possibly slightly worse than day 1 of that game. I didn't move off null in that game until day 3 iirc. My partner (orcinus) had her null-town based on his own prior experiences.

- f

[²]

buldermar is *slightly* more abrasive than me though I have my moments. The questions that are about his tone/banter he'll have to answer. Questions about our reads or about my posts, I'll field.

- f

[²]

Fair point, MER. A bit harsh and technical, but fair.

That doesn't mean I am wrong about ², however.

I like you, AS, and Rach.
I am not particularly impressed with soat (very awkward, disjointed comments... seems a bit listless), ² (aforementioned reasons), tne (too dependant, allowing himself to be influenced by others).

ETL seems genuine enough, although I could see her as setting herself up to look like she's having difficulties deciding when she really isn't. goodmorning is the wild card in the group.

RC, I'm kind of at a standstill re your concerns about me/us, since they relate mostly to what I perceive as the posting style of my partner.

Your and my reads differ dramatically in places, but we agree on Mr E Roll, TNE, GM and I think ETL. My impression is that she's earnest, transparent hardworking town, though I'll keep her newbie scum win in mind. With no site meta, one's scum game isn't at all constrained by prior-game town behaviors.

- f

[²]

Liking SoaT a lot more for town, both for the vote and for the push back.

- f

Weren't you the one talking about assessing actions based on whether it was town-motivated or scum-motivated? What town motivation is there in randomly voting someone and not sharing the thought process behind it? Maybe he saw something the rest of us missed? Instead of just explaining it, he gave me attitude.

I believe I was the one assessing actions based on whether they are more likely to be town motivated than scum motivated (though I think f is doing a similar thing).

I think most are equally motivated to doing random voting as scum and town, but doing random voting is inherently anti-town. In other words, with respect to being motivated by alignment it is most often null.

- b

[²]

Perhaps you're simple not emotionally or intellectually capable of understanding the concerns I've raised regarding A_stone.

If you bothered to actually read anything I've said, you'd know how I feel about A_Stone. I just happen to think you may also be scum. Ad Hom isn't a good defense.

It isn't a good attack either.

[²]

Am I supposed to just vote for 2 even if I dont think they are likely to be scum just cause peeps dont like how much they post?

I think we can do better than that...

Not like we are on deadline yet or anything...

Would you have done so had we been near deadline?

- b

[²]

I was reading this game, and I didn't feel like I was in it. Then I saw my facepalmcat and realized that I am in this game.

I am relatively sure I know who the scums are but it's just a really hard gut read and a fuckton of associative tells and my brain is going NO NO YOU CAN'T MAKE A CASE SOLELY ON ASSOCIATIVE TELLS D1 NO FLIPS YOU BIG STUPID IDIOT STOP THAT STAY OBJECTIVE but my gut is going NO NO I WANT TO SAY IT AND I AM TOTALLY RIGHT, IT SHOULD BE REALLY OBVIOUS BUT THEN WHAT THINGY AND BLAH BLAH WALRUS

Also it's quarter past 2am, so that probably explains that slightly but maybe not.

Either way it could be productive to share it?

- b

[²]

Yes, yes it was.

Too late to answer this one now - for obvious reasons.

- b

[²]

>.> Are you ever going to answer why the question had to be asked, or are you just going to make a case on how I'm backpedaling to the sunrise in your opinion

The question answers itself by making the simple assumption that I'm town: I asked because I didn't know (as opposed to asking while knowing, which would make me scum and which is what you insinuated that I did).

- b

[²]

1. I unvoted when I thought it was the general consensus that RVS was over, there was no point in holding my RVS vote after that point.

This kind of phrasing is scummy. You didn't unvote when you

wanted

the RVS to be over or when you had made up your mind, or when someone better came along to vote, or when you thought your vote was no longer of use. You

waited

and unvoted when doing so would be in accordance with the general consensus. That's exactly what scum does: stays in accordance with consensus without worrying about progressing the game or making reads.

- b

[²]

I'm still checking out who I'd like to vote right now, I'm thinking about 2 but I'd like to see a bit more, it's pretty much just gut and a bad feeling right now. I'd just like to step back and look at everyone a bit more before I make my decision.

This is fencesitting.

- b

[²]

3. It's just something I do, I like to see activity from everyone.

You started doing this immediately after I called you out for tunneling on me and making a shit case on why I'd be scum.

- b

[²]

He looks like he has an amazingly strong presence doesn't he, then suddenly we realize he's using a post to answer every question individually.

I'm pretty sure we have posted the most in terms of amounts or letters, words, questions asked, questions answered, statements and the like as well.

- b

[²]

I cant remember if I played with scum Bulder before or not?

We played before =)

- b

[²]

Rach's posts so far this game have been terrible. buldermar and I have both brought her up in our convos. our experience (more bulder's than mine - I have played one completed game with her) is that she posts like this regardless of alignment, but it's still terrible

If her posts so far have been completely terrible why did you have her as a null read?

She's probably not more likely to be making terrible posts as scum than as town - we aren't entirely sure, though.

- b

[²]

This post indicates otherwise, to bring up just one example (of many).

I never claimed every single one of my posts lives up to these criteria.

Why shouldn't they?

I can say that about each and every one of my posts, why can't you?

Because unlike you I'm not completely delusional?

- b

[²]

*sigh*...

I think I'm having trouble because the slot is a hydra... but f's posts are much better than b's, and after re-reading the thread, i think b's abrasiveness just gives me scumvibes. i know that's not a scumtell, and I'm just not sure since giving the thread another look over.

so,
UNVOTE:

I'd be willing to vote A_Stone as my second top read at the moment.

I like ETL for town based on this post because I think it's accurate and not a post scum-ETL would be motivated to make. I think scum ETL would continue the line of thought he already began.

- b

[²]

buldermar is *slightly* more abrasive than me though I have my moments. The questions that are about his tone/banter he'll have to answer. Questions about our reads or about my posts, I'll field.

- f

Lol "slightly"... You're so diplomatic that if you were in Syria there wouldn't be a conflict ;D

- b

[²]

PEDIT @2: As I said, I'd rather wait. Keeping the other in the dark is something that's worked out well for me in the past.

Fair enough.

- b

[²]

Scum:

A_Stone

Town:

Mr E, ETL

Probably town:

SoaT

Additional notes:

I didn't like Rach's post 290. Instead of insisting that she did contribute, she willingly admits to not having done much and makes excuses such as "I suck on day 1" and "it takes me a while to figure people out". I'd think that town-Rach would think she actually already did some scumhunting or contributed with something, but she's immediately defending why she didn't. That doesn't seem like a town mindset to me, but I don't know if that's just her playstyle.

I'm undecided with respect to RC. f thinks RC is maybe town, but I'm not as convinced.

Dunno about goodmorning and thenewearth.

[²]

^^ - b

[²]

I'm undecided with respect to RC. f thinks RC is maybe town, but I'm not as convinced.

I was giving RC pretty much full credit for his reads list in 308. But, on review, that was a response to Mr E Roll's call out in 303. And that slips my town read on him toward null.

- f

[²]

Who else thinks we should policy lynch ^2 for spamming?

Okay, I'll attempt to compile the content of my posts into fewer posts in the future.

- b

[²]

Yes, yes it was.

Too late to answer this one now - for obvious reasons.

- b

Spoiler:

This just shows you misunderstood the post 2, although it's not like I expected you not to.

How does it supposedly show that I misunderstood the post?

3. It's just something I do, I like to see activity from everyone.

You started doing this immediately after I called you out for tunneling on me and making a shit case on why I'd be scum.

- b

Nah, I started doing it when I wanted to see more activity from everyone, I see you're attempting to make it into a scumtell though.

I don't see how your statement is in conflict with mine. You're making a statement about the reason whereas I'm making a statement about the timing.

This kind of phrasing is scummy. You didn't unvote when you

wanted

the RVS to be over or when you had made up your mind, or when someone better came along to vote,

or when you thought your vote was no longer of use.

You

waited

and unvoted when doing so would be in accordance with the general consensus. That's exactly what scum does: stays in accordance with consensus without worrying about progressing the game or making reads.

- b

Isn't my vote no longer of use when RVS is over? Yeah, umm. That made a lot of sense 2.

If you want further understanding of my reasoning, I see RVS as a phase that the town is in, and that it can only be left by all players when the reasoning for a vote is no longer random; I see it as a general consensus kind of thing.

Do I need to highlight the fact that the sentence starts with "you didn't", i.e., a negation of the following "or when you thought your vote was no longer of use"?

You're avoiding the point I'm making. This time I actually trust that it's because you fail to comprehend it, though.

I'm still checking out who I'd like to vote right now, I'm thinking about 2 but I'd like to see a bit more, it's pretty much just gut and a bad feeling right now. I'd just like to step back and look at everyone a bit more before I make my decision.

This is fencesitting.

- b

Well I guess you could put it like that, if you wanted to put a scummy spin on everything I say,

No, not everything, but you do say a lot of scummy things. I'm surprised that nobody else is noticing it - perhaps people fail to do so because they dislike me for my posting style and/or behavior. I trust they'll realize how scummy you are soon enough, though.

- b

[²]

I'm not going to continue responding to A_Stone unless others insist that I do. I'm already convinced that he's scum, so conversations with him has limited utility to me.

- b

[²]

I personally found it fairly useless after the first couple responses, but that's because it's Stone you're arguing with and I have a light Townread on him for meta reasons.

without explaining the meta reasons, your light town read is meaningless to other players and unpersuasive.

I'm finding your play pretty obfuscatory so far, GM.

- f

[²]

It's been good for the rest of us I think. In your exchange I have found reinforcement of my suspicion of him, specifically his precedent of "non-answers".

VOTE: A_Stone

I already had you as a town read and this post solidifies it. Not only because of the vote, but also because you noticing the "non-answers" tendency (as you put it) shows that you've been reading the conversation.

- b

[²]

I think both scum can be found in some configuration of TNE, Syndrome and A_Stone. Individually each one has looked scummy. I just don’t know which combination is most likely.

I think this is a bit narrow, but I do agree with essentially all of your reads, including the null ones.

- b

[²]

Maybe if you starting sharing your thought processes it would be easier to get a firm read on you.

I have. I am intentionally obfuscating to clarify my position on a certain player(s) to myself in hopes of being able to present evidence of it to everyone.

well, then don't get excited when people read you as null.

[²]

^^ - f

[²]

hey guys someo of us do have RL outside of mafia games

There goes all respect I ever had for you, Rach. Good job insinuating that people being active doesn't have a "real life" outside of mafia games. You probably couldn't have been more insulting even if you tried.

- b

[²]

There goes all respect I ever had for you, Rach. Good job insinuating that people being active doesn't have a "real life" outside of mafia games. You probably couldn't have been more insulting even if you tried.

its so fucking obvious you two are scum together I seriously just fucking lost all interest in this game.

I remember buldermar making a very similar comment to another player who said something about having a real life that takes precedence over mafia. I can't remember what game it was in, unfortunately.

I found Rach's response to the comment a little squiffy, though.

- f

[²]

There goes all respect I ever had for you, Rach. Good job insinuating that people being active doesn't have a "real life" outside of mafia games. You probably couldn't have been more insulting even if you tried.

its so fucking obvious you two are scum together I seriously just fucking lost all interest in this game.

I think I can see why you'd interpret things that way. However, I have before been insulted by the snarky "I'm inactive because unlike you I have a life" comment, and it pisses me off. I don't really know what to tell you other than that it's absolutely sincere.

- b

[²]

There goes all respect I ever had for you, Rach. Good job insinuating that people being active doesn't have a "real life" outside of mafia games. You probably couldn't have been more insulting even if you tried.

its so fucking obvious you two are scum together I seriously just fucking lost all interest in this game.

I remember buldermar making a very similar comment to another player who said something about having a real life that takes precedence over mafia. I can't remember what game it was in, unfortunately.

I found Rach's response to the comment a little squiffy, though.

- f

Maybe it's a culture thing because I found it insulting and arrogant.

- b

[²]

I am sorry to learn about your cousin, Rach. Take care of yourself during all this.

- f

[²]

bulder I am truly sorry that I said something that offended you. I guess I should have just said what it was...

My young cousin (she will be 32 in August) who is like a niece to me cause she was only 6 years older than my son Ben had a relapse with the cancer and has taken a major turn for the worse. Docs say there is no hope anymore. she has a 9 year old daughter. I am so sick and tired of Death coming to visit me I wish he would go find someone else.

So yeah I kinda have been doing other things more the past few days, cause I am trying to get my equilibrium back.

Thank you for sharing this. I'm sorry to learn about your cousin, and I sincerely hope that you find a way to deal with it all, and get your equilibrium back, as you put it. The situation you describe put the initial remarks into a different context - namely one in which the remarks were never meant to be derogatory. As such, I too am sorry for having considered them so.

- b

[²]

2 really kicked up a big fuss about that Rach thing, I thought it was obvious she said it in a joking manner. Although Buldermar probably didn't get it for a similar reason about why he didn't get my space joke.

It's difficult to explain culture differences to a group of people all sharing more or less one culture.

- b

[²]

Yeah, I understand it, I just don't really see why you took such an offense to it.

I think more likely you noticed Rach's post, decided that it would be a good idea to act as if you don't get why I was being offended and went with it.

I'll check if Rach posted before or after you started your "I don't see why you'd be offended" crap.

- b

[²]

Rach explained things in 378 and you posted in 381. How convenient. You can piss off already. I know that you're scum, so it's only a matter of time before either you get lynched, or I get killed/lynched in which case everyone else BETTER FUCKING LYNCH YOU WHEN THEY SEE MY FLIP.

- b

[²]

I get massive scumvibes off Mr. E. Some examples in a bit.

I will no doubt be skeptical, but if you are right it changes the game landscape pretty dramatically.

What about RC do you like? I have him as a giant Null.

I like his posts. They seem to come from a genuine, town POV.

agree

- f

[²]

hydra of buldermar and fferyllt here?

how has this thread not reached 50 pages yet!

reading.

We are exercising restraint.

Welcome to the game!

- f

[²]

Is that a softclaim? How very interesting.

surely this wasn't rolefishing?

- f

[²]

hydra of buldermar and fferyllt here?

how has this thread not reached 50 pages yet!

reading.

Because every person but one (excluding f and I) thinks I'm posting too much, so I stopped giving a fuck and am now just waiting for the rest of town to realize that A_stone is scum.

- b

[²]

ketchuuuup!

hi

- RC

I laughed at this alot more than I should have.

43 - what is this buldermar?

65 - why are you worried about putting someone at L-2 Rach?

74 - CAP LOCKS ALREADY WOOOOO

85 - what makes you think that buldermar?

130 - TNE VERY concerned with people voting squared, this is like the 3rd time he's posted something like this. why are you so concerned TNE?

144 - yeah I agree & thought the same. bit WIFOM-y from 2. not sure I like it.

156 - FINALLY

*series of random votes argument* - whilst I see buldermar's point I think it's a bit weak. and the argument itself is one which will have a different conclusion in everyone's eyes. I'm glad we've moved past it.

201 - why the need to post it again when Rach hasn't posted?

204 - "think he's scum" but no vote?

210 - Mr E Roll is likely town

211 - why did you need a shove before voting?

214 - why were you going to wait?

233 - still working on your reads? what?

As of this post ^ I'm heading out. so far there's been a severe lack of scumhunting from Rach in my opinion. and she seems to be keeping her cards pretty close to her chest, like she's attempting to coast through the game.

VOTE: RachMarie

I'll be honest with you; I'm too lazy to read all of these posts right now, but feel free to highlight the questions that you wish for me to answer and I will.

- b

[²]

Raise your hand if you like the idea of a town bloc of ETL, RC, MER, and Mac.

Raises hand

You could do worse.

tne, why haven't you moved your vote? How come you have been totally on the defense with no offense in the past 11 days (and no creditable offense in the entire game, imo)?

A_Stone, goodmorning, TNE and rach are my persons of concern. more or less in order of concern from most to least.

- f

[²]

I'm personally not going to entertain the idea of lynching anyone other than A_stone unless f thinks we should.

- b

[²]

I promise I'll post a maximum of one post per day if we lynch A_stone and he flips town.

- b

[²]

I would lynch: Rach, TNE, A Stone

I will not lynch 2 or MER. Nor ETL or RC.

Where is GM?

- f

[²]

Who is suggesting a no lynch??

- f

[²]

thx. I misread that part of A Stone's post. And yeah, the comment doesn't exactly help him out of the hole he's dug.

- f

[²]

M

r

E

R

oll

I didn't get it at first.

- f

[²]

I'm willing to compromise but truthfully I'd rather not. So yes.

Well, I was kind of addressing the game as a whole, MER, but yeah.

Spoiler:

I notice tne is still voting you...

I was asking why you were still voting Mac when you were 100% on a MER/soat scumteam and MER had more support for a lynch than soat.

This is a solid point. AS has been saying things that make me think he's town. I'm not sure why he's such a popular vote-getter today, but I am generally not the type to defend someone particularly hard on D1. Personally, I think AS is town. If the majority disagrees with that, it's not the end of the world. I disagree though, and I wanted it noted.

I have had a town read on you since your "Hi" post and you haven't done anything that seriously shakes it.

So, I am listening to your concerns about the A_Stone wagon.

But, buldermar and I have had a scum read on A_Stone since...page 1? 2? Really early on. We arrived at the read independently, but we're generally finding that it's usually the same posts that ping our scumdars/towndars wrt to everyone in our games.

Give me some more examples of stuff A_Stone has said that makes you think he is town.

- f

fixed spoiler tag in RC's post ~N

[²]

he did not exactly say no lynch he said it would be worse to mislynch a townie than to no lynch

and that would be Stone dude

Obviously it would be worse to mislynch a town than to do a no lynch, but since we don't know who is town and who is not that's all but irrelevant.

I do not advocate a no-lynch over lynching an alternative to A_stone, which is what you're currently insinuating.

- b

[²]

The only knock I have on them right now is that b seems to be sulking a little and holding back on his posts. But I read that as more likely frustrated town than appeasing scum.

I'm holding back intentionally and out of respect for the desire of the other players; thus, it's not related to alignment.

- b

[²]

I promise I'll post a maximum of one post per day if we lynch A_stone and he flips town.

- b

Bringing out he big guns, eh? This is tempting!

That's all I can offer - I believe sig-bets are not permitted.

- b

[²]

Has anyone meta'd TNE? Or played some completed games with him?

I think his play in the Sherlock Holmes game is an interesting contrast to this game.

- f

[²]

maybe the higher amount of early content from TNE was due to replacing in around page 5 during that game.

- f

[²]

So basically you think the same way, you have the same reads which can be right or wrong in many games and you feel the same about quite a few posts...

Why are you using the fact that you *both* find me scummy as a reinforcement to your reads, I would have thought that it would have been a logical assumption to make.

The point of interest is not that we both find you scummy. The point of interest is that we found you scummy starting around page 1-2, and you have never really dug out from that.

[²]

^^ - f

[²]

VOTE: Thenewearth Time I have given you, as much as I have.

You may claim now, or forever hold your peace.

No, you're not going to claim, because we're lynching A_stone.

- b

[²]

Oh yeah? With whose vote? I have a reasonably strong townread on him.

Based on what?

- b

[²]

I'll talk, but b and I have decided not to compromise today.

Since GM has said she'll hammer TNE, I'm not sure what you think needs to be talked about.

- f

[²]

Oh yeah. I didn't see that. Why have you decided not to compromise, regardless?

because TNE is null to us at worst. I haven't talked to b about it so I don't know if he'd go for a different compromise, but given the votes and positions of our town reads, it's looking pretty moot.

also because our individual baseline levels of stubbornness is self reinforcing to epic proportions in our collaboration.

[²]

COMPROMISE

explain please.

[²]

^^ - f

[²]

I'm off to the dentist shortly. Will be back about an hour before nightfall in the unlikely event that a nolynch is looming.

[²]

^^ - f

[²]

back. aaand no change.

- f

[²]

I told b I would change our vote if necessary to avoid nolynch. I'll give it a few minutes and then do so.

- f

[²]

VOTE: TNE

[²]

yeah, not so happy sharing that wagon with A_Stone and GM, but TNE not returning after hitting L-1 doesn't look good.

b and I seem to be an anomaly wrt soat. we thought his don't give a shit attitude looked townish.

[²]

I did vote him.

p sure Mr E Roll meant it's the reason why TNE wouldn't vote you.

[²]

And 2 gm wasn't on the wagon, what do you mean you were sharing it with her?

she said she would hammer. she flaked.

[²]

^^ all these are f. It's like 4 or 5 am or something in Denmark.

[²]

Just noticed! Happy Birthday Red Coyote!

- f

[²]

@GM

Yep. if it came down to nolynch I told b I'd move our vote. I voted 3-4 minutes before deadline.

go ahead and call that scummy.

- f

[²]

Quit being fucking idiots and lynch A_stone.

VOTE: A_stone

- b

[²]

He didn't return the vote. meaning he viewed you as more important than himself.

OH PLEASE

THIS IS SOME MAJOR BULLSHIT HERE

I was working on the assumption that TNE was at least making a minimal effort to play to his win-con, clearly he was not. But can you give me any other sane reason that he wouldn’t have voted for A_Stone with under 24 hours to deadline?[/quote]
I wish I thought to check before nightfall. After the card flip I checked TNE's profile. He was not online to return the vote. He was not online after the L-1 vote.

- f

[²]

quote tag fail :/

- f

[²]

Don't lie 2, I saw him,

I am not lying and I'm extremely offended you would say that I am. his last post at the time was before the L-1 vote was cast.

- f

grr

- f

[²]

2nd bah but don't mind this N... Pwease?

I was online then come back only to see that I died :V

I was having my medical (Again)

Lol you're so out of line with this post. It directly address matters related to your lynch - how can you even think it's a "bah" post? Feel free to discuss this with me post-game.

- b

[²]

Rach

@RC are you thinking of this post?

- f

[²]

There goes all respect I ever had for you, Rach. Good job insinuating that people being active doesn't have a "real life" outside of mafia games. You probably couldn't have been more insulting even if you tried.

its so fucking obvious you two are scum together I seriously just fucking lost all interest in this game.

Just noticed that quote failed for some reason.

Here it is.

- f

[²]

Mac, I have gathered up the bulk of the day 1 interactions that led to our day 1 scum read of A_Stone.

Spoiler: huge quote wall ahead

2 saw the use of soat in quote format, along with evidence of who it was. With this evidence,

Firstly, I was responding to RedCayot, not SoaT. Secondly, even if I was responding to SoaT, I may not have realized what the abbreviation meant because I was responding to the person through the quote of another person (i.e., I didn't make that abbreviation myself).

Finally, and most importantly, what would the scum motivation for acting as if I don't understand that abbreviation if I actually did be?

I think you're pretending to think that you've found something to launch some sort of attack on us. I think your process went something like this: you read all of our posts in ISO, and decided to attack anything you could find. You noticed this and thought "hey, this could be a great thing to attack" without thinking about whether it actually made any sense from a scum perspective. Why did you do that? It's a subtle scum-slip, but people make it all the time. As scum, they forget the fact that your motivation shouldn't be winning arguments, launching attacks or finding mistakes, but look at posts that can only be motivated by a scum perspective. You fall victim of a) launching an attack that completely ignores what potentially would be scum motivated and what wouldn't, b) aims at finding mistakes (such as me not realizing what SoaT was an abbreviation of - despite it being obvious that there couldn't be any scum motivation for pretending to have missed this), and possible c) aimed at winning arguments (although this one is more debatable).

Either way, I feel these are sufficient reasons to establish quite a strong scum read on you, so I'm going to vote you unless that would put you on L-1 (in which case I'll postpone voting you until I've talked to ff). Will read the remainder of the posts subsequent to the one I'm quoting now first, though.

Seems off to me. It was obviously a player, why did the question need to be asked?

It wasn't obvious to me, or I wouldn't have asked it. Again: what's the scum motivation behind pretending not to know what it meant? Why would scum-me be less likely to know what it meant than town-me? These are two questions that must be answered in order to justify you thinking that it "seems off". If you don't answer these questions, I'm inclined to think that the "seems off" part is just putting seeds out there and hoping that people jumps on this.

- b

his RVS vote seems... overreasoned I guess would be the word?

He made a space pun. That's your definition of over-reasoning? Interesting.

I'll be coming back to this later.

- f

And yet you *never* did, I thought it obvious after #23 that it was a joke, any reason why you didn't see it that way?

And this is what I wanted to see before I came back to it - I wanted more posts from you to firm up my initial impression that you were propping up a random vote by characterizing our posts about RVS as "arguments" we were trying to win rather than reasons why we personally don't do RVS.

And what I see is more of the same. It is scummy to play as a hydra while keeping the two individuals' posts recognizable. It is scummy to not recognize an abbreviation, or to not ask about it the first time it appears in thread.

Buldermar and I don't consult each other on every single post. We are playing this game as though we're masons who share a single vote. When we are speaking for each other or speaking about our consensus about game events or players, we'll make that clear. When we are not speaking for each other, we'll try to make that clear as well.

We are in agreement about our vote.

-f

It looked off to me? I thought it was unnecessary, it was obviously a player and I didn't see why it needed to be asked.

I didn't say it was necessarily scummy, I just saw no reason to ask it.

You were clearly insinuating that this would be a scum-tell. Saying "it looked off" does not satisfy my question about what the scum motivation would be. For it to be a scum-tell, it has to be motivated by alignment. If it looks equally off when it comes from town and scum, what is then the purpose of pointing it out? I don't buy this explanation. You tried to sell it as a scum-tell, and now you're retracting it and asserting that you merely thought it looked off and wasn't worried about it coming from town or scum.

- b

I suppose a more apt word for what I meant by off was *interesting*

I thought that after seeing this post, and other posts mentioning soat, you would have garnered the meaning of soat.

You tried to pass it off as a scum-tell: this is backpedaling.

- b

UNVOTE:

I think I'll unvote now that RVS is over.

Translation: I think I'll act as if my vote was always just a random vote - despite the fact that I was tunneling like crazy on ² - because I got called out on something I can't refute.

- b

Wait a second, I think I've found something

In this post by RedCoyote

This is what A_Stone now claims is merely "interesting" and not something he ever thought was a "scum-tell". I think it's clearly between the lines - especially given that this is only the last part of a longer case on us - that he tries to pass this off as a scum-tell.

- b

You're overthinking this way too much, my vote on you *was* random.

Yes, the initial vote. Then you started tunneling. Then I asked you if it was random, which you didn't answer. Then, when you ran into some trouble, you unvoted me, asserting that the vote had always been random.

- b

1. I unvoted when I thought it was the general consensus that RVS was over, there was no point in holding my RVS vote after that point.

This kind of phrasing is scummy. You didn't unvote when you

wanted

the RVS to be over or when you had made up your mind, or when someone better came along to vote, or when you thought your vote was no longer of use. You

waited

and unvoted when doing so would be in accordance with the general consensus. That's exactly what scum does: stays in accordance with consensus without worrying about progressing the game or making reads.

- b

I'm still checking out who I'd like to vote right now, I'm thinking about 2 but I'd like to see a bit more, it's pretty much just gut and a bad feeling right now. I'd just like to step back and look at everyone a bit more before I make my decision.

This is fencesitting.

- b

3. It's just something I do, I like to see activity from everyone.

You started doing this immediately after I called you out for tunneling on me and making a shit case on why I'd be scum.

- b

- f

[²]

We are also concerned about GM.

I would add 395 to Mr E Roll's and ETL's reasons.

- f

[²]

Hmmm.

Alot of tunneling going on from buldermar. Do you agree with all of the points he is making f?

288 for example.

I've seen town unvote in RVS when it's over. I've seen town take a look at everyone before voting. I've done it myself.

I'll re-read Stone's ISO tomorrow.

In the unvote, it wasn't so much the fact of the unvote it was the awkward phrasing of the reason. And that was what initially caught my attention as well.

The tunneling question is a good one, though. I have a favorable bias toward players who are direct and even abrasive in their reactions, and tend to tunnel people who don't come off as being direct. If it's a player's personal style I eventually figure it out.

grr

-f

[²]

A_Stone, could you please post a reads list?

- f

[²]

Eh, ok then.

In no particular order:

Mac and RC seem pretty genuine, although I don't really get what RC is talking about.

MER seems genuine, and the TNE thing that pinged my scumdar a bit is nullified,

GM, My mind tells me scum, for things like refusing to acknowledge why she was voting Mac instead of MER when MER had more support for a lynch when she stated she was 100% sure. Then again my gut is screaming town due to posts like #350, I've never really seen scum do things like that, I would have expected scum-gm to out her reasoning to avert suspicion, which she has not done. I also have a hard time seeing #357 coming from scum. Her case showed work had been put into it, but I'm not sure how she could have done work if all she kept in her mind was her basic reads, so I don't feel she was entirely honest about only keeping 'I think these people are scum' in her head.

ETL, I personally never really liked the way ETL and 2 kinda swayed to thinking each other were town, it seemed planned. Then again, I'm paranoid . Although I can definitely understand his vote on GM, the reads, even though I thought work had been put into them, weren't really all GM had shined them up to be.

2, I like -f's posts, they seem genuine to me, -b's posts are quite annoying though, although I quite like that he's toned it down. His blatant tunneling is non-sensical and *in my opinion*

No, you're not going to claim, because we're lynching A_stone.

- b

This was a bit terrible.

------------------------------------

I am a bit concerned with AS still.

I want others to acknowledge the point I made, because it totally has flipped my read of AS.

What did I do overnight to change your minute concern into a full scum read?

Or are you just overthinking it.

"genuine" = "townish"?

Who are your scum reads?

- f

[²]

^^ I am assuming ETL, GM and 2? Correct?

- f

[²]

I'm cool with lynching GM after A_stone. Havn't talked to f about it yet, though.

- b

[²]

If I feel they're genuine then I don't believe they're lying, and since I don't know who the town are then I feel that how truthful they are is a good gauge, and I haven't seen many slips from them.

Yeah, you're pretty much correct.

Although I have a weaker scumread on ETL,

Can you explain what you meant in your 540 which was in response to buldermar's post 539? Because I see an implicit assumption in that post.

- f

[²]

If I feel they're genuine then I don't believe they're lying, and since I don't know who the town are then I feel that how truthful they are is a good gauge, and I haven't seen many slips from them.

Yeah, you're pretty much correct.

Although I have a weaker scumread on ETL,

Can you explain what you meant in your 540 which was in response to buldermar's post 539? Because I see an implicit assumption in that post.

- f

His action annoyed me, he jumped in and voted me, and then insulted all the other players for not having me lynched...
...I can understand the vote, heck, I expected it after all the tunneling. But the insult was uncalled for and simply derogatory, his reads have no more validity than anyone else's so far, and yet he's making them seem like they're fully correct.

This explanation doesn't really clear up what bothered me about your reply
b was addressing town, not a specific player: "Quit being fucking idiots and lynch A_stone."
i.e., he wasn't talking to scum, who of course aren't idiots for not voting scum.

your reply: "Says the guy trying to mislynch a townie"
indicates you think he's an idiot for trying to mislynch a townie -- not scum.
That doesn't line up with your read on us.

[²]

Not Scum: Mr E Roll, RC, ETL
Maybe: Mac
Scum: A_Stone, GM

(not a consensus list)

- f

[²]

Not Scum: Mr E Roll, RC, ETL
Maybe: Mac
Scum: A_Stone, GM

(not a consensus list)

- f

It is to some extent a consensus list in the sense that I read A_Stone as virtually confirmed scum and GM up there.

- b

[²]

Vote Count 1.21

thenewearth

( 5 ) RedCoyote , Mac , A_Stone , Mr E Roll , ²

Before I read

doc lynch?

scum probably in this wagon.

Oh hey, what a brilliant contribution from you.

- b

[²]

Why don't you guys vote A_Stone or at least explain which part of my analysis that leads to the conclusion that he's scum is wrong?

- b

[²]

after you read the thread it won't be such a surprise.

- f

[²]

Near-End D1 FoS List

Rach FoS: GM/

A_Stone

Mac FoS: Rach/TNE/

A_Stone

MER FoS: TNE/GM/

A_Stone

2 FoS: Locked on

A_Stone

GM FoS: MER/Mac

RC FoS: GM/

A_Stone

A_Stone FoS: TNE/GM

ETL FoS: slightly on GM/

A_Stone

Guys?

Why the fuck didn't you guys lynch A_Stone D1?

I smell BS on that "compromise lynch."

<3

- f

[²]

Near-End D1 FoS List

Rach FoS: GM/

A_Stone

Mac FoS: Rach/TNE/

A_Stone

MER FoS: TNE/GM/

A_Stone

2 FoS: Locked on

A_Stone

GM FoS: MER/Mac

RC FoS: GM/

A_Stone

A_Stone FoS: TNE/GM

ETL FoS: slightly on GM/

A_Stone

Guys?

Why the fuck didn't you guys lynch A_Stone D1?

I smell BS on that "compromise lynch."

I keep asking myself that very question and the only answer I can come up with is sheer stupidity.

- b