Mini 1449 - Ordinary Town

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

there is no space between Rainbow and dash

Fixed

/confirm

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Sup

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

No

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

@ Scott, you have been on this site a while, certainly long enough to know that not everyone votes in RVS and it certainly isn't a requirement. Why call it out?

Gonna try to remember to sign my posts

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Personally annoyed with gcbc's personality but the 2 names that came up in our QT are NC and ACfan.

No real opinions on anyone else yet.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

My turn to post!

Vote NC

Why me and not Toomai?

This is a really bad post to start as it doesn't actually attack any of the logic that was presented as to why its scummy, but instead tries to deflect part of what he is being called for to another as well without really giving thoughts on hp or Toom.

Yep

unvote

VOTE: zefiend

This is a pretty ugly sheep. Apart from zef being one of my stronger town read at this point, it seems like more of a runaway vote following a vocal player who was calling him scum. I would love to actually see NC try and give reason for the vote before GCBC gives one (even though they probably both are missing reasons - zef is really town which anypony should see at this point).

I probably wont always remember to sign posts (chances are I wont sign anything) but if somepony cant tell us apart... well im not sure what else to say.

GCBC should headclaim too. Its amazingly anti-town to keep that hidden.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

you are a fan of long paragraphs containing rubbish aren't you?

Cuz thats all I saw from Zef

I like your reasoning on NicCage though, keep it up sport

I want to see NC fail to come up with logic for a vote first - less info I give him on where im coming from more likely it is he oversteps a boundary.

Zef is town though, the post you voted him on is townish but 58 is wow-town.

Your post didn't have a NC vote though. It should have.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

sup BBmolla, didn't know you like to be the bad cop.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

if I read your post right, you said that you have played with me and we were scum together. The number of completed scum games I have is, 2 I believe. process of elimination, you can't be sven so that leaves BBMolla or Primate. If you lied about being scum with me or I misinterpreted your statement, well yeah I am wrong.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I'm not sure why NicCage has rounded up so many votes so quickly. it seems like people have latched onto a small handful of things he's said and jumped to seemingly ridiculous conclusions. I don't see how we have enough information about him to justify the number of votes he has. I think NC is more likely town whose wagon is being pushed by scum because it could feasibly give an easy d1 lynch for them.

VOTE: Daemon385. His first post was very iffy and he hasn't posted since then; it could just be his newness clouding his actions but for the moment I think this is a good place for my vote.

the "why me and not someone else" comment has absolutely no town motivation, instead it is a self preservation comment. That is more than enough reasonable doubt. Not to mention he hasn't really done much to show he is town imo

- J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

so jake from rainbowdash, why is it obvious that zefiend is town?

I can't speak for dashie and at first I wasn't sure where she was getting it from but if you look at what was being said.

Hap is pushing the hp suspicion too hard, especially because it's based on faulty logic (saying that HP leaves hates RVS yet her RVS'd). HP leaves didn't random vote, he voted for a reason. Hap later changes his reasoning into "HP leaves wanted to policy lynch"

all of that is pushing way too hard on something that is completely null. Hap's reaction to HP's vote on BadCop comes off very bad and zef is really the only one who called it out. That gives Zef town points imo

post 58 just reiterates that Hap is seems very serious about HP being scum, yet the reasoning for Hap's suspicion is absolutely horrible, especially when there is more scummier people. Personally HP's vote on Bad cop looked like a reaction test to which Hap reacted badly

Maybe dashie can explain her thoughts, but that is basically what i came up with on my own.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Are these your own suspicions, or simply your interpretations of your other head's suspicions?

Either way, I have many gripes with this. For one, it's some very convoluted logic. You basically assume that two people are town (HP and Zef) in order to call me suspicious, which is insane this early in the game.

Secondly, you're fixated on me taking my suspicions on HP too far when that's been over and done with for a while now. At this point you seem to be beleaguering the point here, which screams hypocrisy on your end.

1. Are which suspicions mine? All I was doing was attempting to provide my reasoning why I felt zef was town. Zef calling you out reads town.

2. Having town reads early on in the game isn't insane, but you don't even have to automatically assume a player is town, they can still be considered null. Zef found an issue with your action, calling out that action and voting you is 100% pro-town. Even if Zef is wrong about you and you are actually town, her action is still town motivated.

3. this is basically untrue, dare I even say a mis-rep. I was responding to a direct question about our town read on Zef, it has absolutely nothing to do about you. Basically I think Zef's actions indicate pro-town behavior. I am sure Dashie may have more to add but that is how I am interpreting it.

-J

p.edit - @ hap - you don't have to do the double hashtag before each vote/unvote

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I guess I am doing both, i'm trying to rationalize my partner's reads by giving my own analysis.

Associative tells without flips isn't really suspect imo but it's kind of hard to do because you don't know for sure if someone is town or not. If I read a player as town then you absolutely can look at people attacking them to help find scum (This is yet another reason why I wanted to hydra with dashie, it annoyed the ever living shit out of me how she could come in and say "this person is town" & "that person is town" and as such I always suspected her as scum. I am sure she will explain her read on zef when she gets here (she can't really post during the day cause it's blocked at work) but I am hoping my speculations are close to what she is picking up, and if not she will post hers.

I will let dashie explain her "wow town" reasoning, personally zef is town because I see town motivation in calling you out, not scum motivation.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I guess i don't understand what Associative tells are

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

her action is still town motivated.

why

-BadCop

Cause their actions to me show genuine scum hunting.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

So the "zef is town" breakdown.

Of course.

However I don't understand why he would vote someone

on the basis that he hates RVS,

while effectively making an RVS vote of his own

.

A random vote is one that is made randomly, without reasoning or justification.

hp [leaves] placed his vote and gave a reason. Therefore, it isn't a random vote. Whether or not you like his reasoning doesn't matter. Whether or not he's already changed his vote doesn't matter. You're misrepresenting his actions (see the italicized quoted part) in order to justify your confusion, or misunderstanding, or whatever (see the underlined quoted part). The point is that you're trying to call his actions into question, but you're pushing too hard on it. This seems forced to me.

This is good and logical. Its town picking up on something that he sees as scum trying to throw out a vote on non-existent reasoning. While its not worded perfectly (more to follow there) he is pushing into it not even blindly but actually trying to discern where the attack is coming from while giving his overall conclusion at the point in time.

If you construe hp [leaves] vote as random there is nothing I can do to change your opinion, as we have different interpretations of the term "random vote." To me, his vote was not meant as a joke.

To rephrase it a bit differently, I find the fact that you "find <<what hp [leaves] did>> scummy, or at the very least something worth pursuing" is pushing to force an issue that's simply not worth it.

More "trying to get to bottom of reasoning" as opposed to "lol you are scum" response.

I never said you were trying too hard. To clarify, I am voting for you because I don't like the way you are going after hp [leaves]. I feel as though there is nothing there to warrant going after, and your pushing on it and questioning is unsettling.

This was that "misinterpretation" I was talking about. The comment he got railed on was him basically saying "that is a really bad point" or at very least saying "that appears to be a very bad point" instead of "you are attacking him too hard over a valid point".

I am all for prying information from someone, but only necessarily if they do something genuinely suspicious or questionable. It seems as though you are admitting to "forcing things", albeit for the sake of generating information... so, along with the fact that you are generally being proactive in regards to activity, I will

Unvote: hapahauli

for now.

We get full circle here. He sees where the push is coming from, and although he does appear to still disagree with it, he feels that its town motivated instead of scum motivated. I can follow him, do you?

@NC - How is that vote "safe". If any vote is "safe" its yours on him because its sheeping the vocal player without actually giving any reason of your own as to why you are voting him. I can point to quite a few "safe" votes so far, usually one where the palyer starts trying to kick up their own logic isn't one.

Since when is "wordy" a scumtell anyways?

Basically NC is scum.

He sheeps over the loud player onto Zef who is "wordy" and "making a safe vote". When half of his case is exactly how he is playing the game

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Over reading means you are trying to make him scummy IMO like forcing it, his posts really haven't been that scummy and there is no way scum makes that list like that.

Scott needs to stop lurking, I find it funny that he felt the need to call out someone for not giving reads, and immediately got called out on it himself.

I'm still good with a NC lynch, he's laying low hoping his wagon vanishes IMO.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Anyone disagree with me about Nic, his last post on site was yesterday, he has logged on today, and hasn't posted in over 50 hours.

mod, 73 hour activity requirement? Really? Smfh

Prod sent

Bottom line, he's logged on and hasn't posted. Don't let his wagon fall apart because he lurks it away.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Idk where my other half is at right now but I'm needing a reread. I'm going to try it tonight or Monday. Sunday is out

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Going to try and get a conversation in with my human half soon, but last I checked both of us like Varsoon for town, so that wagon needs some healthy explaining.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

is original case against GCBC seems like an overreaction, and he certainly was eager to push it.

please explain how it looked like an over-reaction, more importantly what was he over-reacting to? Looking at Toomai's vote on GCBC I don't get that at all so I'd certainly like you to clarify that.[/quote]

He even defends the wagon on GCBC as being founded on his reasoning, though only he was voting for that reason. Thought that was weird.

Again, maybe I am missing it but I don't see this happening either.

His vote on me looks like a cheap sheep. He drops his case on GCBC to vote me, thinking he's sheeping everyone else, even though he actually wasn't. In fact, he's definitely

not

reading carefully, but just sheeping where it looked convenient.

I will concede that his vote looks like sheeping, but sheeping is usually a null tell.

I also have other opinions and things to answer, but I don't have time for you today. I'll try to give you more tomorrow.

This was made on Thursday, it's now Monday. how much longer you going to lurk through this game?


I have only 1 issue with Toomai and it's a legitimate one which I find kind of scummy, but it's not enough to lynch someone but i really want him to explain it better

@ Toomai, this comment about the BCGC wagon

Not sure I like how fast it built up, but as long as it doesn't go much further, I don't see the problem.

1. why did you not like the speed of it?
2. why did you not want it to go any further?
3. why did you not question any of the people who hopped on after you voted?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

dude hasn't voted in forever, content of his posts comes off as scum trying to sit back, etc etc.
I just don't like him. Someone mentioned him recently and I was like, "Oh, that guy exists?"
Yeah, that's what he wanted me to think.
'cus he's scum.

if I am voting scum, why do I need to keep voting? please explain how that works exactly?

we most certainly are not just sitting back, we are asking questions and sharing our reads and we are one of the top posters of the game, out posting 9 other people in the game. If you don't remember our posts, that is a reading issue obviously.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

prod Scott & zef please

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Yes I did miss the VC, I missed it cause I'm a dumbass

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Can't tell if GCBC is telling me to unvote or ACfan to unvote.

Either way,

unvote

Glad to see I got some kind of reaction out of JakePony.

JakePony, please explain why I should support your vote that's 250 posts old.

reaction testing an active poster by calling him inactive?

you can vote whoever you want, but my original reasons for voting him are still valid and he hasn't done anything but lurk. He has had 1 content filled post but he didn't even complete it, he said he had more to come and then vanished again. When I asked when he was going to finish he said that the rest of what he was going to say wasn't valid (or whatever) anymore. There was the one time when someone (can't remember who at the moment) voted and only gave a reason of "BC" and he immediately showed up ask about that and provide nothing else.

He isn't scum hunting and nothing coming from him shows pro-town behavior.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

My part again (im probably going to be the one more jumping on defending town reads - that's more my loyalty style).

We basically have seen Varsoon on this page again show why he is town. Is he frustrating town that makes me audably groan reading most of his posts? Yes. Is that still town? Yes.

Go to the last VC and what is happening. Varsoon is getting ran up against NC. What is the reaction from Varsoon? Attack a player who is voting NC. That accomplishes absolutely nothing from a scum perspective and instead is more of throwing rocks at a hornet nest. Not only is he making a vote that keeps him closer to a lynch as the leading wagon while easily being able to vote NC, but it also stands the chance of angering a player off the wagon who is defending him.

Scum are rarely borderline suicidal like that and I think anypony who really is thinking even shortterm should be able to see the high potential ramifications of making the type of vote he is, continuing the style of play he has gotten slammed for in that type of direction is just bad town play instead of bad scum play.

So Varsoon wagon. Go away.

NC is good, SB is good, GCBC is actually quite decent as well.

Need to talk with my other half but CGBC in 309 is all kinds of scum. NC still is really scummy (still kinda waiting for that Varsoon lynch reasoning) though, and im happy leaving the vote there.

Also four days to deadline, and im having mild connection issues (which look like they will persist for a couple weeks). Nothing that warrents replacing but just less accessable than normal self.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

post_id=4951889 time=1368459225 user_id=10128]this is so town motivated that I'll give you a medal

sorry I couldn't tell but this was sarcasm right?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

319 & 321 were Jake btw

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I just did a quick search of ac1983 for the phrase "anti-town" and I come across 2 open games where he was town in both and he voted players for being anti-town, one of those players (belisarus) was actually scum.

ac using anti-town is par for him and isn't a policy lynch, so can we please end this stupid conversation about policy lynching?

k thx

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

not that you will necessarily believe me but i can kind of explain why it seems like we are posting like that hap.

Spoiler:

I wanted to hydra with rainbowdash cause she is always able to develop strong town reads and I am never able to develop strong town reads, I actually end up accusing half the game by the time the game is over. My intention was to pair up with dashie to learn from her but for whatever reason her schedule or whatever has kept her from posting in the QT. I'm purposely trying not to spam the thread and not make moves without discussing them with dashie first but we just can't get online at the same time.

The main issue is i am online most of the day and she can't access MS from work which makes her availability in the evening. She also prefers to use AIM where as I would have to create an AIM screenname (which I may end up doing now that my wife's laptop is fixed and she isn't using mine)

I am here and have lots of opinions, but they don't necessarily agree with what dashie has posted in our QT. For example. I had GC/BC as an obv town read but dashie disagrees with me and has him as a null/scummy read. She has varsoon as a town read, but I have him as a null read.

I hope to get this straightened out soon once we are able to hook up and talk to each other. If I can't connect with her I will just revert back to my old way of playing.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

If it was easier to switch between this and my main, I'd probably post more fwiw. Logging off and on sucks.

I'm going to re-read tonight though and I'll create an AIM account to chat with RD.

The mod allowing 72 hours without a post before a prod is going to kill this game. 73 hours plus + 24 to 48 to respond to a prod with a 2 week deadline just gives scum invective to lurk.

72 hour deadlines should be for 3+ week deadline games IMO.

:gets off soapbox:

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

unvote for a second

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

bear with me, I just saw something interesting.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

@ Toomai - why do you think Nic is scum and what do you think of the recent votes on Scott.

Also what's your read on scott.

Thanks

-J

btw, consider my vote still on Nic, I just want to make sure I get the answer to my questions.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

The floor is yours.

I will get to it, it may be nothing but I wanna bounce it off my other half.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

While I wait for Toomai, I decide to look over the low posters.

Dyslexion - hasn't posted since Saturday but has managed 11 posts between yesterday and today (if you are town, diaf)
AC1983 - doesn't have posts anywhere else but here so while I want him to increase his activity, he doesn't seem to be avoiding the game
Nic - Has only 1 post since his last post here, and his posts here haven't been that great. Still think he is scum.
Daemon - same as AC1983 basically
Zelfind - same as AC1983 basically
Scott - Same as AC1983

my biggest issue with AC/Daemon/zelfind/Scott is essentially lack of activity is slowing the game down. I realize not everyone can be online all day/every day but these guys really need to try and post more.

Dyslexion gets a big FOS from me, because avoiding a game has no town motivation at all. If he is town, like I said above he can go diaf.

/rant

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

ok, I thought i had seen a weird toom/SB connection but after that response and going back and looking in detail, I mis-read.

Vote: Nic

back to L-1

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

we are not lynching a claimed PR, even in the off chance he is lying. I have seen this mistake way too many times. I will admit that in the QT I posted that I agree with the case, but the speed of this wagon is way too fast. especially with a PR claim.

fake or not, we will hope somebody out there can verify it tonight and if he is legit, than he is mafia's issue to deal with.

if anyone wants proof of my stance about lynching claimed PRs, I will be happy to link a game.

today we are lynching Nic or maybe Scott. I'd even be ok with a Toomai lynch.

that is all. Anyone hammers AC and he happens to flip town, you may as well just sign your death certificate. We are not lynching AC today.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

explain what? that we are not lynching a claimed PR? what is there to explain. WE ARE NOT LYNCHING A CLAIMED PR. end of story.

In the off chance he is actually telling the truth, we are not doing mafia's job for them

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24199 - cop lynched day 1
and this was my response, I didn't believe the claim but I said we should not lynch him. He got lynched anyway and flipped cop.

But if there is no counterclaim - surely my claim holds water then.

Did you really just say this?

That's an admission of guilt if I ever saw one. The odds that a cop is in this setup anyway is slim, not many normal games have them and when they do they usually have a modifier attached.

No self respecting cop would ever counter on day 1.

That being said, I have a no lynching of a claimed PRs on day 1. Surely we can give him a stay of execution for 1 day.

bottom line, day 1 we don't lynch claimed PRs EVER.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

So when do we lynch him? What is your plan for killing him in the event that he's lying?

we lynch one of Nic/SB/Toomai, my preference being Nic

if he is lying, he gets lynched tomorrow. Hopefully we have a cop or something who can investigate him. If he is town, scum will have to think about killing him or hoping town lynches him tomorrow. It makes it much harder for scum if he is telling the truth and we can somehow clear him.

we can talk about all of this tomorrow though.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

ultimately your case on Ac is a meta case, albeit it a very good one, it's still a meta case. meta case alone isn't a reason to vote him. his cop claim gives him the benefit of the doubt that OMG you could just be wrong.

you don't think it's the least bit off that it takes over a week to get Nic to L-1 but AC gets to L-1 in less than 24 hours?

that is at the very least reasonable doubt that AC is legit. I'd actually be ok lynching any of the last 2/3 people who voted Ac, Toomai would be a good lynch but so would Nic

one of those 2 imo.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

but feel free to do what you want, but if AC gets lynched and flips town. I want your head on a platter, I don't give a shit what kind of town read dashie has on you.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

if he flips scum we can deal with that tomorrow. I stand by my position that he should not be lynched today. It's bad town play to lynch a claimed PR. period end of story.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Okay because my other half is not quite on the same point I was making in the QT...

A claim like that where you cant actually prove it in any way is not something that you automatically avoid lynching. Its simply a mild reason not to lynch him (im hesitant to actually call it a towntell) in the situation. However, part of the claim I like quite a bit from having a (whole lot) more experience here than you do. Ive been a part (player/mod) of at this point probably over 100 games here, almost EVERY time I see a player claim a limited shot role, ESPECIALLY a non-information limited shot role, they are either town or scum with that exact role.

Him claiming one shot is enough for me to put that wagon on pause. You have decent enough reasoning, but as Jake has said the way the wagon formed, especially when you compare it to the NC wagon, doesn't feel right. The only time a wagon just blitzes to L-1 its on scum? Ehhh... probably not. Its more of extra things instead of a good/bad case that make ac a bad lynch. Yes even though you are going to complain about it - he is a bad lynch. A cop probably shouldn't claim tomorrow or investigate him, but he still is a bad lynch because scum are either going to have to make a more suboptimal kill or take some other course of action.

NC though is scum. Two more points on the matter are

1) His attack on Toom basically comes AFTER the wagon had started, but then he goes back and basically bases his page 10 vote on page 1/2 posts. If he actually saw those as scummy he would have said something about it when that was occurring instead of later
2) He is really keeping options open. Notice that Varsoon gets wagoned as a counter, and he immediately thinks that Varsoon is a decent lynch. This is NC getting ready to jump there when needed. Varsoon on the other hoof has the town reaction.

So yeah. acfan, maybe scum, maybe town, not the lynch. There are situations where you lynch a PR day one and this isn't it, we just follow it later and see what happens. Leaving him alive if he is town becomes massive thorn in scums side.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I hate this town.

Having just read everything posted today I'm inclined to agree with this 100%

Also idk if ac is scum or town but regardless hap's attitude has to be the shittiest I've ever seen. Last I checked you aren't confirmed town and nobody elected you the leader. Take your barking out of this game.

Playing SMART we should not be lynching AC today.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Why me and not Toomai?

Hey dys, what do you think of Toomai?

Since no one is interested in Toomai I'll
VOTE: acfan

I don't see how keeping him around for tomorrow is beneficial.

Why the hard on for Toomai all game?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Furthermore, did you not see what your own partner posted to the effect? The one you so idolize?

she also said that we should not be lynching him.

so yeah for the most part we are on the same page, so kindly move your vote to nic

thanks

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I hate this town. Don't expect me to post after this.

Pffft. You're rather sensitive for a "Bad Cop."

bbmolla isn't a good bad cop. not sure why he's trying to act like he is one

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

He probably hates it cause people are still trying to lynch AC..

:shrug:

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

It sounds like you'd be perfectly alright with lynching AC if he claimed VT, correct?

Correct

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Basically, a policy isn't grounds for an opinion unless you can justify it in the specific situation.

I want to try and sit down and see it from your point of view right now. Because I really just don't understand why you are holding the stance that you are.

In my many years of mafia I have seen town PRs get lynched day 1, even been lynched day 1 as a PR. It takes the wind out of town's sails. It's not optimal play to take a gamble on day 1.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Last I checked 50% isn't higher or lower than 50%

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

You said there's a high chance he's scum. That's incorrect. There is exactly 50% chance he's some sort of scum, and 50% he's town. Unless there is 3rd part that changes things.

Actually if we are being more specific there is a actually greater chance that 1 player out of 13 is town.

So the odds are we leave him alive at least 1 day

I'm kind of frustrated about another game so I'm done in here tonight. I'll let dashie post. If she wants.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I don't always make sense.

all I am saying is there is no harm leaving him alive another day. The speed of his wagon alone makes me think he is town.

Dyslexia, Demon, Toomai, GCBC, Varsoon in a span of 8 hours.

Dyslexia reads town to me
Demon - looks scummy
Toomai - REALLY scummy
GCBC - Town
Varsoon - Town

hp leaves shows up and asks for a claim but immediately realizes the speed and votes toomai - hp is probably town

my problem is I can't imagine Nic/Toomai are scum together, that would just be some super bussing if you ask me.

Varsoon is also probably town because when the wagon was 5 for him and 5 for Nic, he votes Scott. Scum would vote the counter wagon to himself (unless they are scum together, doubtful)

looking at the VCs

Nic and Var at both at 5 - Var and GCBC vote Scott, this puts Var back to 4 votes as GC was voting Var
Toomai then votes to put Nic at L-1 for essentially no reason at all.
I unvote but revote nic - thought I saw a Scott/toomai connection but could not verify anything
post 363 - toomai does answer my question explaining his read on Nic, with links to post. That takes effort that I am less inclined to expect from scum

this is when all hell breaks lose with the AC counter wagon.

Nic is the correct lynch. If Nic flips scum I actually like Hap as his potential partner, since Nic was almost lynched and he is still fighting the Nic lynch.

anyway

that's my .02

OH and Scott gets scum points for trying to start a new wagon so close to deadline, because as of 468 nobody was voting toomai and we are 1 day out.

lynch Nic not AC please. Toomai is actually probably town

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

we are about 18 hours until deadline

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

What changed in the space between you calling him very scummy and ending the same post with this?

that post was being written as I went through each post. I started at the vote count in post 308 and went through each post writing what I saw as I read. Post 363 makes so much sense, especially the part about what Nic says in post 302.

In post 302 Nic says

Also, I think zefiend is town now also, for what it's worth.

it is odd because in post 94 nic says

I guarantee that zefiend chose that vote because he thought it was safe, which would either point to scum or newb trying not to stick his neck out. I went with scum.

and between those zef has 2 posts (3 if you count his EBWOP) and the transition makes no sense, especially since nic doesn't explain why he does a 180.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

AND hap also gains scum points for also trying to start a new wagon after I announce we have only 18 hours until deadline.

Nic is at L-1 now, so he needs to claim ASAP, like his very next post.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

@ GBGC

I have no concept on how that quote by Toomai is scummy at all.

@ J

AND hap also gains scum points for also trying to start a new wagon after I announce we have only 18 hours until deadline.

Nic is at L-1 now, so he needs to claim ASAP, like his very next post.

Well if you want to give the most active player in the game scum-points, you can do whatever floats your boat. I did say that I was going to remain active to make sure there was a lynch today, but that seemingly went over your head.

Regardless, we now have more time, so please entertain SB a bit more than you are.

being the most active doesn't = automatically town

remaining active or not, you already tried 1 counter wagon to nic, now you want to do a 2nd.

explain why you don't want Nic lynched and you are trying so hard to get anyone else but him lynched

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

that's why we lynch Nic and sort the rest out tomorrow.

nobody has made a case for why Nic should not be lynched. If someone wants to convince me why he's the wrong lynch, by all means I am an open minded person.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

am I concerned that his wagon was like pulling teeth and took the entire deadline to finally get him into a position to be lynched, when there was AT LEAST 2 counter wagons and now a 3rd trying to form?

NO, I am not concerned about that at all.

scum wagons, especially day 1 are damn near impossible to achieve, and this one fits the bill to a T.

but that didn't answer my question really.

explain why you don't want Nic lynched and you are trying so hard to get anyone else but him lynched

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

No, but being active and providing almost half of the town's scum-hunting should pretty clearly show you what my motives are. I'd be impressed at myself if I were scum, but alas no.

"Hey guys, look at me being all active and scum hunting. I can't possibly be scum"

ever heard of "hiding in plain sight"? just sayin...

I don't know if nic is going to flip scum, it's possible he flips town but I seriously doubt it. Usually wagons on a townie do not take this much effort, and they almost certainly don't generate multiple counter wagons.

If i had to guess, Nic is a scum PR which is why it's making it that much harder, even just a scum goon would not be this difficult as scum would just buss from town cred.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I did answer your question. I'm extremely skeptical about the circumstances in which this wagon formed.

a wagon that takes almost 2 weeks to get to L-1 is more skeptical than a wagon that takes less than 24 hours to get to L-2?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Toomai, varsoon, and AC were counter wagons

You voted Toomai first based on the VC, but you weren't pushing that wagon iirc, others were pushing him
You didn't start the varsoon wagon either.

So yeah, there was resistance

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Look on the bright side, if NC does flip town, you get to hold it over everyone's head and proclaim "see I told you so" and berate the rest of us for another day phase

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I was basing that off memory, could not go through your iso on my phone. If I was wrong I'm sorry

But there were people who never joined the Nic wagon, that alone shows resistance to it. The fact that people were willing to join another wagon, despite started or pushed it, still shows resistance.

in my experience resistance of any kind is suspicious, this one had the most resistance. If you want to start yet another counter wagon, have at it.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

The fact ther you if all people posted that post made me laugh.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Of all people*

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Like, who the fuck is practicing medicine but can only help someone once?
There's no such thing.
I mean, dude can lie, but at least lie better.

1-shot doc does exsist on this site. Learn more about the site you are playing on before making assumptions.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

She says she can't access the site from work. I'll post in the QT that you want to speak with her

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

UNVOTE:

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

The replacement asked someone to unvote, so I obliged

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

UNVOTE: Niccage until I know what is going on in this game.

I thought he was asking since it wasn't Bolded. :shrug:

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

You don't have to wait for this pony to actually be at my laptop to ask me questions, its not like they will disappear by the time I get off of work (which may cut into access this weekend since I need to go in for at least one half day).

Also we are almost for sure going to be still voting NC here. Outside of something massive happening with regards to ac he wont be getting our vote today, if he is scum he is pushed into a corner for what he does. If he is town scum are pushed into a corner.

Plus he is a good pick for NC partner, if you look at the two the both sorta acknowledge eachother but don't really take stances for the most part. Not sure where you are getting "that's not scum and scum" from there.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I really doubt they're on the same team. It's plausible, but mafia would have to be the least active, lurky mafia ever for them to be on the same team.

I happens. Scum are more apt to lurk, especially strategically.

Honestly I wanted to just ask you general reads. Do you still stand the same on AC? Howabout Scott?

acfan is not a horrible vote, but the doctor claim keeps me off of him. I have to be really really sure of it to power through a claim. Im good at picking up on some that don't make sense (there are already a few that they are VT or scum) but in normal games like this you don't touch something that has no playstyle counter to it without excellent reason. If he actually claimed doctor I would be more apt to lynch him, but im actually trying to recall a non-open where scum claimed a X-Shot role and (apart from me doing it somewhat recently) I cant come up with one. The X-Shot/X-Night etc roles are more likely scum with that role or town.

SB is a lynch I am okay with, it has been a long time since I played with him but he is somewhat meta-able. Not like the few that you can tell nearly instantly, but he is meta-able more often than not.

Also, what do you make of my points regarding the fact that the NC wagon had no effective resistance (besides myself)?

I can probably find examples in my own games again, but sometimes the best way to get a counterwagon is to just direct attention somewhere else instead of trying to destroy the logic behind the wagon. If you could (im in middle of making food) get a list of everypony who voted NC (and when they voted/unvoted) I would like to see that though. Its just as easy to argue without all the cards shown that he is scum which is why the wagon never has gotten over that hump though, just passive defense.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Jack...

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Cause you gave intent to hammer without saying much of anything. That's sketchy

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

vote: Nic

Although AC is making me nervous being quiet again.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Jake or dashie could you answer my questions please?

You mean the "why would I do this [sheep]" as scum? When the reason for your sheep was "zef is sheeping"?

I really don't see a question from you really. I already explained why that post, and other things, were a scumtell.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

@Mod: Something funny's up with the numbers in that vote count.

Cause you gave intent to hammer without saying much of anything. That's sketchy

Um where was this? I don't see it.

Post 393 iirc, he said "claim, claim til you die" which pretty much was an intent to hammer.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

1 day left, ac is at L-1

Dessex has asked for time to get caught up but has not posted since Friday.

At this point I am fine with either lynch, ac's last post doesn't come off as town at all

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense for him not to vote NC.

- GC

[

nails in the coffin for ac1983

]

It's too much to ignore, which spells disaster for the the WIFOMy protection in ac1983's previous lackluster posts. I've been tipped over to voting him, despite the other objections, there's too much going for this lynch.

VOTE: ac1983fan

What is wrong with both of you?

Is your argument, scum who is at L-2 and has claimed a PR is INTENTIONALLY staying off the other wagon at L-2 when there is absolutely no guarantee that they are safe? What scum does that? Really?

The only way that ac is scum is if NC is also scum and probably something he sees as more valueable than himself (even then, doesn't make much sense, grab the town points and run). Im just not seeing the point behind scum not doing any sort of self-preservation here. Really why does scum avoid that wagon in this spot? Especially when NC may very well vote ac first.

ac is almost for sure town. Indiviudally he is one of my stronger town reads just by behavior. Assuming he is town, chances are really really good that at least of of CP/GCBC are scum, regardless of NC alignment. About half the time ive ended up pushing on a PR-claim wagon that was town ive been scum, you don't do that without excellent reasoning. "He isn't doing self preservation" is not excellent reasoning.

Just kill NC. Now. I would rather lynch him claimless than lynch ac.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Jake or dashie could you answer my questions please?

Jake or dashie could you answer my questions please?

You mean the "why would I do this [sheep]" as scum? When the reason for your sheep was "zef is sheeping"?

I really don't see a question from you really. I already explained why that post, and other things, were a scumtell.

so you ask us to answer a question, and dashie gives you a response by asking for a more clarifying question, and nothing from you?

So I suppose I'm getting lynched then. That's fine. I'm claiming VT now, and I would like to give some final reads cause I think I might be onto something. But, I'm phoneposting and I can't really make a case right now.

Short version is I think Jake is scum. Remember that thing varsoon said earlier? I agree with that, that's part of it. If I get to my computer before I flip I'll tell you all the other reasons I think I saw.

what "thing" did varsoon say that you agree with?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I'm here, but I'm leaving the decision to dashie. The fact he put effort like that in that last post, even if he's still wrong, is not something id expect from scum.

I'm also ok with an AC lynch cause fuck him if he's actually town. Really fuck both of them IMO.

If you are too busy to play, replace out or don't join.
-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I would like to know if we have enough around to quicklynch somepony outside of the acfan/NC group (smart bits on both town). Killing daemon/SB wouldn't be horrible to me.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

That was dashie

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

You have helped squat.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Or when you are the main topic for 2 weeks, don't lurk...

When you have 2 people agreeing on 1 person, that's a sure sign that we are right, or the person is obviously scummy.

We disagree on other players, but we both agreed with you.

Plus I tunnel, always have, always will.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

there is a little over 14 and a half hours left, that means we have until just after 12 noon tomorrow (east coast time)

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I'm also ok with an AC lynch cause fuck him if he's actually town. Really fuck both of them IMO.

What happened to the never lynching a day-1 PR claim policy?

his last post was essentially a big FUCK YOU to everyone because he is trying to start a new wagon that nobody else is voting. he is essentially trying to get town to NL

also if you go back at look at his post 400, he had slight scum reads on Dyslexia & HP leaves, yet does nothing to question them, he only mentions Dyslexia's name one time after 400, and it wasn't to question him, it was to say he previously asked him some questions. As for HP, he never mentions him at all except for post 400.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

going back through cheery's iso to see when he first says I am a scum read (haven't finished yet) but I missed this and wanted to respond to it

I don't recall seeing this stance in monopoly mafia. (even before Lurker slipped)
You had no troubles lynching a claimed cop in lylo there either.

1. when lurker claimed people actually started un-voting him so why would I have brought it up? If people were still voting him and more started to vote him, I would have said something. After he slipped, I couldn't vote and he pretty much admitted he was scum so this is a moot point. Why bring it up when this scenario is COMPLETELY different?

2. did you seriously mention the 2nd part? first, lylo is NOT the same thing as day 1 and there were a lot of claimed PRs, some OMG at least 1 of the claimed PRs was lying. Out of the claimed PRs he was the most scummiest to me. The fact that you are even mentioning that in relation to a day 1 PR claim is just plain wrong.

You can be scum now

also looking over Cheery's iso, no where does he mention he thinks we are scummy, this does seem to come out of the blue imo

-J

UNVOTE:

don't want to lynch Nic either. If dashie disagrees she can revote

I'd be ok with a AC/Scott/Chery lynch

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Day One ends in (expired on 2013-05-20 12:00:00)

The mod is using the countdown feature. This is the exact amount of time we have as of this post

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

What are Cheery Pie's individual personas? Also, which half is posting right now?

Cheery Dog and pieceofpecanpie iirc

Cheery dog is the one who was scum in monopoly and tried to use the fact that I voted the wrong person in lylo against me to discredit my day 1 policy, like lylo has ANYTHING to do with Day 1. What fucking townie would do that shit? none. Cheery has confrimed himself as scum, but since I don't think we can get a cheery wagon in the short amount of time we have, I feel like Nic or AC is going to get lynched.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

1. You weren't voting on before/after - but you were questioning people for removing their votes after his claim.
2. At the time I hadn't read further down the page and seen you mention day 1, but you wanted to vote him earlier than lylo as well. I didn't have more day 1 data from you, but that's the case.

1. misrep
2. any other day than day 1 =/= day 1

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

You weren't voting on before/after - but you were questioning people for removing their votes after his claim.

and let me explain WHY it's a misrep

Since he was wondering why lurker didn't claim til L-1. I think the main point now is if you were voting lurker and unvoted him who do you suspect now?

Right now, I have everyone as null, with Lurker town because of his claim. I'm going to iso a few people tomorrow and continue from there.

so your read on lurker went from scum to town because of the claim?

I questioned AI because his read went from Scum to town because of the claim. To do a 180 on someone JUST because the claim is scummy. OH SHIT, dude was the SK. I am fucking smart YO

and he is pretty much the only person I questioned, and then I continued my push on SC and guess what? OH SHIT, Stranger Coug was CheeryDog, WHO WAS SCUM!!! Why did I ignore that in lylo I will have no clue

yeah, go die now scum.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

1. You weren't voting on before/after - but you were questioning people for removing their votes after his claim.
2. At the time I hadn't read further down the page and seen you mention day 1, but you wanted to vote him earlier than lylo as well. I didn't have more day 1 data from you, but that's the case.

1. misrep

Explain your actions there then, because that's clearly what I am seeing when checking that game.

you are scum looking through scum googles aren't you? look at the post I just made and that will pretty much confirm that you aren't looking at that game with town goggles.

ok, can we quick lynch this scum? I'm going to bed but if there is support for a Cheery wagon (and even votes) I will join this mother fucking wagon in a heat beat.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I questioned AI because his read went from Scum to town because of the claim. To do a 180 on someone JUST because the claim is scummy. OH SHIT, dude was the SK. I am fucking smart YO

to clear it up better

a person who goes "oh that dude claimed a PR so he is town now" is not the same as "let's not take the risk of lynching a PR on day 1, even if the case is awesome" which is basically what I said this game.

I am going to go back to see if anyone did a 180 on AC because of his claim, if they did that person can be scum also. (though I doubt anyone did a 180 on him)

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

if anyone has the time and want to prove either of us right or wrong, please do. I am pretty sure what he is implying I did in that game ACTUALLY never happened - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=24418 and of course both he and I are biased.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

he was voting him, his wagon was growing and he kept his vote on him. him saying "claiming VT doesn't save you" and "This could be a bluff" does not come from a person who has a town read on them. It comes from a person who he has a scum read on. The fact that AI was a SK, he had no idea who mafia was or wasn't and imo SK have to play like town.

I have every reason to believe he did a 180.

p.edit - I agree with what hap just posted.

I also disagree with a flash wagon though, unless it's on Cheery, then I am ok with it.

derp

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Why, as scum, would I do this? How does scum stand to benefit from this and why is it scummy?

I will answer this question, since I didn't really see it before.

why would you as scum sheep GCBC onto zef is basically the question you are asking right?

Why Not do it as scum? Sheeping to me is null to scummy, You either A. saw something you agreed with and voted or B. you wanted to keep GCBC on your good side. Sheeping can and HAS been done by scum, I can point you to an almost exact situation if you want me to.

now this quote

For starters, I wasn't under serious suspicion at the time, so there was no reason for me to be shifting the blame. There practically was no blame to shift, and I explained my reasoning for asking that question was to find out what the difference was between Toomai and I. Jake obviously doesn't accept that reasoning, but he never says why it's wrong and has never attempted to understand my motivation from a different perspective. This is part of a pattern of behavior.

the problem with you asking "why me and not toomai" is because toomai wasn't under any suspicion either. You had 2 votes and your response makes no sense from a town perspective. The fact you chose toomai was extremely weird.

What I find funny about this post is how it points out a really good town quality without actually practicing it. He says that zef is trying to get to the bottom of something rather than just calling someone scum. But at the end that's exactly what Jake does. There really aren't any questions trying to understand my logic behind voting zef, aside from asking how wordy is a scumtell. I'm obviously just scum from my response, and no further investigation is necessary, right?

post 54, 111, 112, 192, 193

all of those posts reflect me doing things, a couple are directed at other people and a couple are directed to or about you. To say that we aren't doing something, when you aren't doing it at all is kind of comical.

If you wanted something from me you should have asked.

Why should I have to ask you to play like a townie? My scum read on you was further confirmed by your lack of action. It's not my job to ask you to convince me you are town, it's your job to convince people you are town.

I feel like Jake's protecting ac over a mostly useless PR is bad.

why do you think a doc, granted it's only 1 shot, is useless? What if he is legit and he somehow picks the right person and gives town a slight edge? would that still be useless? I don't really care what the PR claim is, I'd still do the same thing.

I think this is just more bad reasoning to get hap to back off. Maybe it's so difficult because I'm not scum. This is more for posterity than anything else.

in my experience lynches of townies don't take this much effort.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Wat.

You mean, the other guy that hp mentioned?

Those two reasons just feel weak, I don't know why you think they're as strong as you do/did. This is why I would expect you to try to get more out of me, the person you're trying to tunnel, to make sure you had the wrong person. The certainty that these reasons gave you to continue to push my lynch does not look town motivated.

hp never mentioned toomai...

Spoiler:

post_id=4925590 time=1367597264 user_id=10128]/confirm

post_id=4926404 time=1367613228 user_id=10128]VOTE: GoodCopBadCop because I don't like random votes

post_id=4928380 time=1367671065 user_id=10128]

post_id=4926404 time=1367613228 user_id=10128]VOTE: GoodCopBadCop because I don't like random votes

##Vote hp [leaves]

'Cause you don't like random votes yet are posting a random vote in the random voting stage... wat.

Nope, I voted for the person who random voted because I don't like random votes. Bulletproof logic if you ask me.

post_id=4928383 time=1367671240 user_id=10128]Also I'm calling it, everyone after me on the Cop wagon is scum.

post_id=4928384 time=1367671342 user_id=10128]So let's start by lynching Cage.

VOTE: NicCage

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I really want to mod a game sometime where it's just 13 town and every night 'scum' shoots one of the thirteen. The game would end when town discovers that no one is scum.

if nobody is scum, who is doing the shooting?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Oh, oops guess he didn't, sorry. Still, my point stands

how so? 2 people vote you and you are all like "why me and not some random person" makes NO SENSE from town.

Wat.

You mean, the other guy that hp mentioned?

Those two reasons just feel weak, I don't know why you think they're as strong as you do/did. This is why I would expect you to try to get more out of me, the person you're trying to tunnel, to make sure you had the wrong person. The certainty that these reasons gave you to continue to push my lynch does not look town motivated.

hp never mentioned toomai...

Spoiler:

post_id=4925590 time=1367597264 user_id=10128]/confirm

post_id=4926404 time=1367613228 user_id=10128]VOTE: GoodCopBadCop because I don't like random votes

post_id=4928380 time=1367671065 user_id=10128]

post_id=4926404 time=1367613228 user_id=10128]VOTE: GoodCopBadCop because I don't like random votes

##Vote hp [leaves]

'Cause you don't like random votes yet are posting a random vote in the random voting stage... wat.

Nope, I voted for the person who random voted because I don't like random votes. Bulletproof logic if you ask me.

post_id=4928383 time=1367671240 user_id=10128]Also I'm calling it, everyone after me on the Cop wagon is scum.

post_id=4928384 time=1367671342 user_id=10128]So let's start by lynching Cage.

VOTE: NicCage

#34 is calling Toomai, Nic and Scott scum.

ok sure, but that still doesn't make sense why nic picked toomai and not someone else or why he even said it at all. it's not a natural reaction from town imo

vote: nic

deadline is today, let's just roll with this

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Next time mod, link to the flip, not page 1 lol

Trying to talk to dashie because we disagree on a few things. I'm looking hard at CD and AC

P.exit - I support that vote.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Hp, thoughts on CD and AC?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Well until I hear from dashie.

vote: CD

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Yeah sorry

vote: cheery pie

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Toomai actually makes a good point in 749, nothing suggests that ac's play has been pro-town, and I still originally liked the case by hap. Sitting back doing nothing, at least Nic made the attempt to do something.

vote: ac

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

post_id=4976839 time=1369339508 user_id=10128]

Hp, thoughts on CD and AC?

CD?

I might look into ac later but his priority will keep rising if he keeps his silence.

sorry, i meant CP aka Cheery Pie

and I don't want you to put AC off for later, I want your opinion of him now, since you said this before

post_id=4957189 time=1368651805 user_id=10128]Oh well, I trust you on this one Hapa.

Claim, ac. Claim till you die.

clearly you have some sort of opinion of him already. I want to know if your opinion of him is still the same or has it changed.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

@hap - With that kill acfan is very likely scum. Im happy lynching him today.

Its going to be WIFOM but you should follow here too. Basically the kill is a massive tell. Look who the likely kills would be: Zef and hap. Now approach this from a standpoint of town-acfan. Who is going to die (most likely) assuming both town? Its very clearly Zef. That is a quiet quiet spot that has a loud player replacing in and everypony thinks is town. aka a threat.

On the other hoof, why would scum kill Hap if acfan was town? They wouldn't. Pure and simple they wouldn't because it would likely end with a mislynch of acfan. Scum would be more than happy to keep a prob-town who wants a PR dead alive.

By that logic, acfan cant be town because the "protect" he would have made as town would have been Zef. While im sure he is going to run in and claim that he protected the player who wanted him dead or something... but it doesn't make any sense.

The kill seems to line up with acfan being scum and just making that side kill without really thinking about who he would protect as town. Sometimes the best way to catch scum who has claimed a role (outside of trumping it with role information - which if it exists here shouldn't be said) is to compare it to what they should be doing in that situation. acfan I don't think approached this as he would town (outside of him about to claim "oh I got RBed" or something like that).

Varsoon and Hap are town still though. Pretty sure of that one.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Is this Rainbow?

I find it really, really hard to believe that you 180'd on your ACfan read for NK WIFOM. I'm also slightly bitter that you didn't listen to me yesterday when I was screaming about all of this =/

Well believe it.

This is basically what I was saying in the QT and part of the reason that I didn't want to lynch acfan. I tend to be good with reading motivation and setting up scenarios where the outcome is beneficial. This kill reads like acfan is scum, and the fact that it went through makes it that much more likely.

Whats changed to make you not like the lynch? Sometimes its about putting past arguments aside when you know you are right about something.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I will let dashie answer that one

for me the fact that he didn't die is enough to lynch him. If he was legit, I feel mafia would be stupid not to kill him. especially killing who they killed.

derp again

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

My response to that (1 shot wifom) will be mostly theory so ill save it for post game.

If he's town, not killing him gives him the chance to stop a mafia kill. It's a small chance mind you, so killing him now is better for scum. Especially if the people pushing for his wagon are all town, mafia could use his flip as a way to push a few mislynches (have done this exact thing before)

The fact that he bowed out and did nothing the remainder of the day is what scum does when they think they dodged a bullet.

He needs rope, ASAP.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

cause imo if you have a chance to take out a PR (if he was legit) you as scum should ALWAYS take that chance for fear of the unknown.

the moment Nic flipped town, mafia knew we were no threat to them. We pushed hard on a townie this makes us look scummier, any town cred we may or may not have had day 1 went away with his flip imo

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

cause imo if you have a chance to take out a PR (if he was legit) you as scum should ALWAYS take that chance for fear of the unknown.

the moment Nic flipped town, mafia knew we were no threat to them. We pushed hard on a townie this makes us look scummier, any town cred we may or may not have had day 1 went away with his flip imo

-J

How many times have you two played with Kuribo before?

- GC

I can't say I have ever played with him, never even knew who he was until the Baltimore meet thread

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Only idiots ignore night kills.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

post_id=4979237 time=1369421425 user_id=10128]So then why aren't we lynching someone who had played with Kuribo before?

Why the resistance to AC?

Lynching someone just cause they played with someone is retarded. Zef could have been killed for other reasons.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Yeah, going back to my position that either Jake or GCBC is scum.

Yet you don't back it up with a vote...

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Why do you seek our approval? If you think we are scum, why does it matter?

I don't care about being voted.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I'm not impenetrable. I just don't freak out cause something thinks I'm scum.

If AC is scum like I suspect, guranteed hp is scum. CP is my 3rd

Town would be you, hap, and gcbc

(Dashie's list may differ)

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Someone not something

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Doubt he will but if so I'll re-evaluate my reads but I feel good with my 3 now

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

That's l-1 btw.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

The bigger post is directed to dashie since she made it. The one part I actually said, I didn't see anything that needed to reply to.

As for that post seeming forced, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

If you first suggested someone killed kuribo for playing with him previously, why does hp saying the same thing make him scummy to you?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

"It doesn't matter if you think i'm scum and I don't care about being voted because I'M TOWN."
That's what you were trying to get across right?

Well yeah but why state the obvious?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

semantics really, who has and hasn't played with him is irrelevant. Both of you should be ashamed of yourselves for mentioning that.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

sorry, a 1 shot weak doc is not believable at all.

weak doc means you die if you protect mafia, making it a fairly weak power role as it is, limiting it to just 1 shot makes it even weaker.

I don't believe the amended claim at all.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I withheld the Weak modifier info because I didn't want to let my nightchoice be influenced by possible scum or anyone, really, and I didn't want to make myself a target for NK to frame someone or whatever.
I protected Hapa so he is conf town now.

Horseapples.

That's a scumclaim if ive ever heard one. Weak doc is actually a very strong role (just below cop) and probably is an attempt to draw out a counter from some info role. The role isn't bad (ive used 2-shot weak doc) but the fact that you wouldn't claim an investigative role, that we have a combined protect/investigate and then a communication role, just doesn't work for balance well. Im not sure I can see mod going anywhere with that setup.

Really this just schisms further from "what he would do as town" because im not for half a second going to believe that you targeted Hap as a weak doctor with

NO BREADCRUMBED INTENTION

of actually targeting him. You basically lined up a "im targeting SB" from your posts, and if Hap is scum you would have basically just caused a SB lynch on info, if you were wrong essentially leaving us near lylo with no D2 info.

So acfan is scum. Real simple, his new action claim confirms it.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

1. His admendment IS a scum claim.
2. Still haven't answered my question, why u be dodging it? You don't seem to want to lynch AC anymore, but yesterday you absolutely did. Why the change?
3. I personally feel the "bloop bloop" comment makes his claim less legit, hes getting run up and he's too nonchalant about it.
4. When you have an investigative type role like this, you don't use it on a person that you feel is the most obv town, it's more about investigating someone than saving someone. Plus if AC is town, hap wouldn't be at risk for being killed cause it means hap is possibly scum, or at least possible lynch bait.

Nothing suggests he's pro-town. I'd suggest you hammer him for town cred while you still can. If he flips scum, which I assume he will, you are going to look like the obvious partner based on your 180

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I saw that vote coming a mike away, but a question for you

RBD's want to flash lynch (a system that could be used to try and out other powers roles of more value that a 1-shot doc) did a lot of that itself.

I feel this is kind of a misrep, all dashie did was ask if there were enough people to quick lynch someone. Menawhile, others (scott, hap) ACTUALLY tried to get a new wagon going.

this would be the 2nd time you have misrepped/intentionally lied this game

AC is scum, this is the right lynch. anyone not on the wagon gets looked at hard day 3.

you want to keeo the game open for another week? go right ahead, but AC will be lynched today.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

No, the idea wasn't started by dashie

That's lie #3

625 - hap first mentions not having enough people to get another wagon going
639 - hap asks for a roll call to explore last minute possibilities
641 - dashie asks if we have enough to quick lynch someone else.

So hap first mentions it twice before dashie does. Plus iirc hap voted for someone other than Nic/AC at one point when deadline was approaching. I beleive it was Scott he voted for, I called him out for it, then mod suspends the deadline.


For someone accusing others of not paying attention, you seem to be getting lots of things wrong yourself.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Just checked. Post 506 is where hap tries to get a new wagon going.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

So basically you are just making up stuff? Got it

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Just checked on my phone, cp, hap was talking about another wagon and you said you were not interested in one. Later you said that you were still against another wagon and I agreed with you with the exception of you cause you lied about the other game we played and townies should not lie, thus you are scum.
Others iirc, we're talking about lynching someone else. The idea was never brought up by dashie or myself first. I actually disagreed with a counter wagon at all (except for you)

Cherry picking is scummy, you either suspect EVERONE who suggested or actually TRIED to start a wagon, or you suspect nobody.

1 person asking if people would consider a wagon is not anywhere as close to scummy as someone who takes action to get one going.

Off the top of my head, Hap & SB actually tried to get new wagons going. Not dashie or myself.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I'm on the offensive cause I'm handing you scum on a platter.

We talked long and hard about this even before the updated claim.

I've got the kids this weekend with the wife out of town. Daughter has a soccer tournament today so I'm going to be away most of today. Hopefully dashie can convince you.

-J, out.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Last thing, and CD knows me and can't possibly call this scummy as I did it in a game with him.

I'll go 1 for 1.

If AC flips town, lynch me tomorrow. That's how sure

I

am.

Dashie will yell at me, but that's how I roll

P.edit. There is hope for SB afterall.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

No AC

IS

scum. He hangs today. That's all I'm going to say on it.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

We can take all 2 weeks if you want to discuss but AC lynch is happening today. Yes he was a town read day 1, that changed during the night phase. His amended claim is crap and so is his claim he visited you.

Cause you guys can't read through subtle hints, maybe a big smack in the face is what you need.

Please don't make me say anything else or dashie's going to be pissed at me

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

You backing off AC & HPs/CPs reactions to him being run up are quite telling. At least 1 if not 2 people in that group alone is his buddy.

And I swear I hope we have a real doctor, cause I'm gonna need it.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

We can take all 2 weeks if you want to discuss but AC lynch is happening today. Yes he was a town read day 1, that changed during the night phase. His amended claim is crap and so is his claim he visited you.

Cause you guys can't read through subtle hints, maybe a big smack in the face is what you need.

Please don't make me say anything else or dashie's going to be pissed at me

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Hap, if you are town I'm gonna virtually slap you after this game is over.

Just read that post carefully and if you STILL don't get it, I'll answer you more direct bu I'll also be demanding town lynch you tomorrow for lynch all clueless people policy.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Daahie is gonna be pissed at me

P.edit - I physically can't stop posting. I have this bad habbit where I think lurking is anti-town and I play to win.

#addicted

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

There's no doctor. Acfan didn't get CCd.

- GC.

No doc would be dumb enough to cc

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

CP/HP scum.

Is it too late to say I was kidding?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Wow... low access for a bit and this is what I come back to?

Actually if you think about the part of the claim I latched onto from acfan early this claim from us (we actually debated just being outright with it) isn't a bad thing. I will just get a little more blatant with scum though to play more on WIFOM since apparently im playing with a bit of an impatient pony as a partner.

We are one shot tracker. Acfan made the scum kill N1. So we are out of shots. As I said, being limited shot was why I liked the acfan claim so much, it basically fit what I was expecting to see from the mod (group of X-Shot roles, maybe a few full roles). From the start we were planning to track acfan though, I was really hoping to get a town-esq result on him (targeted us/hap) and have zef die as that's an instant claim bringing in two confirmed town and WIFOM.

Will just leave scum with that WIFOM though, of if we were one shot or not (lets be honest - they are going to be wondering that). The debate was had over what to do with our result, I wanted to just try and get him lynched through some odd stuff (which I did somewhat agree with, I did say if we didn't die acfan was somewhat likely scum overnight) but would claim if that's what it took. Still don't think we needed to but am going to just lay out all of the pieces of the puzzle for you on our role so if there is any doc type role they can have a better idea as what to do.

So there. Full claim.

CP and hp would be my top two picks for scum here.

Varsoon, Daemon, hap and lesser but still sorta GCBC all read town to me.

Pony out.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Jake, please tell me you didn't do what I did in your game! PLEASE!

lol, now I know who bad cop is

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Hp is also an option as well.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Where I come from, we call these things "scumslips."

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Absta101
Dashie knows your partner, I forgot it.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

A guy posted it in a game I played in, I just stole it and edited it. Tbh I don't even know. The original pic was in the game modded by Dunhanger.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Why would you interrogate a town read?

Makes no sense

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

@ Cp, you seriously suggest I should have just came out and full claimed my results to start the day? Lol c'mon dude you aren't that bad of a player.

You absolutely breadcrumb your results. When people started thinking the change of his claim made him town, I had to get aggressive. Granted I went too far.

I really wish I had a 1 shot hider role too, oh well.

Tomorrow lynch CP, next lynch HP. If game isn't over lynch hap and after that you are on your own.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

So, want to talk to dashie but my gut says we lynch hp or cp.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Okay, pony part here and here is where we are at

1) We don't have any result for you, obviously that means we got blocked/are one shot. Will still let scum guess which.
2) We are NOT lynching today without us getting the last word in since I think im close to having figured out what this setup is and that means something may need to be setup.
3)

Vote hp

Will explain it more later on. Basically no quicklynching today period and at least I like hp as scum a whole lot more due to his neutrality and comments regarding the acfan wagon.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

First Nic wagon -

NicCage

: Cheery Pie,

Jake from Rainbowdash, ɀefiend,

Dyslexicon, Daemon385
Second Nic Wagon -

NicCage

:

Jake from Rainbowdash, ɀefiend

, Dyslexicon, Daemon385, hp[leaves] (5)
Varsoon: Scott Brosius, Toomai, GoodCopBadCop,

ac1983fan

, Cheery Pie (5)

ac1983fan

: Hapahauli, Dyslexicon, Daemon385, Varsoon,

NicCage

(5)

ac1983fan:

Dyslexicon,

Jake from Rainbowdash

, Varsoon, Scott Brosius, GoodCopBadCop, Hapahauli (6)

dyslex 1st vote on Nic - blatant sheep vote, even says as much
Dyslex's vote on AC could be a buss and his post 435 makes me feel that way. 435 he questions hap for ac scum = nic town.
his early vote on AC day 2 and ignores the game for the remainder of the day phase until AC is lynched is a huge red flag.

the biggest flaw against HP is these quotes

post_id=4957189 time=1368651805 user_id=10128]Oh well, I trust you on this one Hapa.

Claim, ac. Claim till you die.

post_id=4957231 time=1368652830 user_id=10128]Actually wait. Doesn't it bother anyone that this wagon went from one vote to L-1 in a single page? Toomai's reasoning is already terrible; but daemon and dys came back from their inactivity just to hop on this bandwagon. I'm willing to bet serious $$ that at least two of them is scum.

VOTE: Toomai

not to mention his avoidance of AC's wagon.

either one is fine with me, but I also like CP lynch too.

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

hap, you should just sheep us and vote HP

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I -really- don't like this.
This sort of claim is why I lost my first game on this site.
I'm really unsure of what to think here.

what specifically don't you like about the claim?

also I just checked your first game was a newbie game where you pretty much know the setup going in, I don't see how that relates, can you explain please?

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

) Jake/Rainbow have been acting extremely engaged/active/involved/townie outside of the claim

if I recall you were starting to think we were scum as the day progressed, so aren't you fibbing a little here?

I mean we were engaged and all that jazz that you are saying, but that is not how you TRULY felt before our claim is it?

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

oh I see, Varsoon got duped by the mafia goon.

setup was either mafia RC/doc/all VTs OR mafia RC/Doc/Jailkeeper/VTs

goon claimed JK and tricked varsoon.

ah kind of feel bad for you but I don't see how that is anywhere similar to our claim.

- J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I'd feel A LOT more comfortable if I could know Jake's alignment

I can tell you our alignemnt


we are town

better now?

-J

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Regardless, I'm really nervous of claims that are given in regards to scum-flips.

considering what happened to you, I totally understand where you are coming from.

but you have to look at the context of how we claimed. we tried to avoid claiming, we just pushed really really hard. when people started talking about ac being town because his claim change, that is when I had to say something.

it's that kind of behavior that really doesn't make sense if I was scum with AC, going through that much work for a bus while possible form your pov, it's a very elaborate bus. And as Hap said, if we are still alive before we get to MYLO we can discuss this again.

-J

p.edit - have to read in in detail, but I can't imagine anything you have typed would have me vote scott over HP.

I don't town read Scott at all, but I have him higher than you simply because of your tapdance around AC's lynch yesterday. :shrug:

my order would be HP/CP & Dyslx (about even), you. Scott probably 4th I guess

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

because of your tapdance around AC's lynch yesterday

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

trying to get a hold of dashie, I personally don't believe the claim but since she is the expert when it comes to setups since she is a reviewer, she will know if this claim is even remotely possible.

Dashie was contemplating if it was time for mass claim, I disagree that it is but I do agree that hp should claim his full role (though I can kind of figure it out)

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Dashie says we should not be lynching anyone yet. The fact that we had only 1 NK night 1, someone else out there has to have stopped the kill.

Also I personally wonder why hp would use a kill n1 vs a block or whatever else he may have.

Dashie feels we should be mass claiming. Hp starts and popcorns.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I also want hp to explain his logic for killing kuribo & blocking SB as neither of those make sense from a town perspective. Zef was obv town and SB was on the scum wagon. The obvious blocks were CP or Hap

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

good catch by SB. How would a theoretical doctor have 2 cleared. It should be 1.

Dat slip

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

What part of FULL CLAIM did you miss.

Also answer my question.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I also want hp to explain his logic for killing kuribo & blocking SB as neither of those make sense from a town perspective. Zef was obv town and SB was on the scum wagon. The obvious blocks were CP or Hap

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

post_id=4992023 time=1369848034 user_id=10128]Just because I can't logic does not mean I mafia

Wrong answer. Try again

I have also never seen a 4-shot Joat in my 3 years on this site. Dashie is a reviewer so I'm asking her if she has ever seen it.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

post_id=4992078 time=1369849382 user_id=10128]Fine. Full claim.

Jack of all Trades:
1-shot vig
1-shot roleblock
1-shot "knifesmith"
1-shot bodyguard
1-shot bulletproof

I already claimed my actions so that's it.

that is 5 shot, not 4

and if you have a "knifesmith" role which is an investigation role, why not use that night 1 vs killing an obv town player?

you still did not explain why you blocked SB when you originally had him as a town read and he was on the scum wagon.

makes no sense...

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

dashie made a post in the QT and once she says I can post it here I will.

we both still agree that massclaim is good

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

2 used + 2 left = how many?

Dude my 8 year old can do simple math

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

And what PF?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Dashie actually thinks scum/SK hp has inadvertently caught scum/SK SB

Mass claim is happening today. So toomai goes next and popcorns.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Fine if you don't count the BP, typically he would not be told if his BP was used (most mods don't tell you)

@mod - hypothetically speaking if there was a 1 shot BP, would your order of night actions tell the person tit was used?

If he's a BP, why would he think a doc saved someone vs his 1 shot used up?

I've been told by normal reviewers that I should not tell if their shot has been used.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

So which are you? Scum or SK?

You aren't town. No way.

I'm leaning SK given the knifesmith/BP SKs usually are 1 shot immune (mine was in my game)

Not to mention kuribo was stabbed. Your weapon would not be a knife if you were also a knifesmith.

Mafia = bullets
SK = knife
Vig = usually not a knife.

Yeah, you are the SK, so Scott is mafia or you just pulled it out of your hat.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Are you a hydra?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

You awake to find there is one less possible suspect. A friendlier than ordinary person was

stabbed during the night.

kuribo, Compulsive Neighborizer, killed Night One

ooh yeah

vote: hp

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

post_id=4992437 time=1369857261 user_id=10128]

Are normals even allowed to distinguish between kill methods?

yes they are

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

post_id=4992443 time=1369857321 user_id=10128]Either way ac still killed Kuribo so that flavor still makes sense.

you claimed YOU killed kuribo

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

post_id=4992554 time=1369859488 user_id=10128]

post_id=4992443 time=1369857321 user_id=10128]Either way ac still killed Kuribo so that flavor still makes sense.

you claimed YOU killed kuribo

Yes I did. And he was shown as "killed" in the flip so I didn't overthink about the flavor. And it was you who said ac killed kuribo with hard evidence so now why are you ignoring your own evidence to attack me, von Karma?

I look at it like this

1. you didn't really kill him and for some reason you are lying
2. you both tried to kill him and your logic about the doctor having 1 clear is obviously false cause I KNOW for a fact AC visited Kuribo and he was just a goon


Also, having just read the game from varsoon, the lack of kill last night doesn't actually clear you nor does it confirm SB as scum, cause this could easily be a scum gambit. Both of you are Null because of your claim.

Additionally your claim makes NO SENSE at all nor does your order of actions or your targets so if anything, your claim actually makes you look worse and I'd rather get your flip before Scott's

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Are you a hydra?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

post_id=4992641 time=1369861332 user_id=10128]So the situation is, either SB is scum and doctor has no innocents or SB is town and the doctor has one confirmed innocent.

Why do you assume we have a doctor?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

post_id=4992732 time=1369863104 user_id=10128]

post_id=4992641 time=1369861332 user_id=10128]So the situation is, either SB is scum and doctor has no innocents or SB is town and the doctor has one confirmed innocent.

Why do you assume we have a doctor?

knifesmith

Explain?

Plus I've never actually heard of a knifesmith now that I think about it and its not on the wiki that I can find.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

1 shot SK was in my game.

And there is no known role as a knifesmith. I know you can have a variant role in a normal but idk if that fits with a 4-shot joat

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

You are essentially a 5 shot but as whoever pointed out, the BP isn't an active ability so doesn't really count as a 5th Per se.

But you are wrong. Gunsmith finds anyone with a gun and I don't think doctor would count as having a knife.

I really don't beleive your claim now. Vote stays til dashie and I can talk.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Well lets finish mass claim. Dashie said she will try to be on later but she also questions the knifesmith claim.

@ CP - claim and popcorn.

unvote

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

How is a claim not possible? O.o

Can you find me a description of knifesmith role?

I can't find one anywhere (granted I'm on my phone)

A role that in hp's words finds a doctor? Why would this role make sense?

A "new" role which this would be, would have to be a singular role and not grouped with other roles.

Plus I think hp said earlier his role investigates for SKs, that already has a name. It's called SK cop or FBI agent.

I'll let dashie post her thoughts as they may differ from mine.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

This is the only thing I can find - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16177

And it's a role that has never ACTUALLY been used up to that point.

As to why would scum completely fabricate a role?

Why not? If people exist that believe scum wont create fake roles, scum have all the motivation to create such a role.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

So dashie just made a good point. If his knife whatever can find doc, why did he not confirm the claim doc?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

ok, I will let dashie figure shit out.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

@hp - Is your BP passive? It appears to be from your posts.

This is pony part btw, im back and ready to snap this game in two here no matter what way we go I think here. Once I get the answer to this I should have this game figured out.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

post_id=4993280 time=1369875240 user_id=10128]It is passive.

post_id=4992078 time=1369849382 user_id=10128]Fine. Full claim.

Jack of all Trades:
1-shot vig
1-shot roleblock
1-shot "knifesmith"

1-shot bodyguard

1-shot bulletproof

I already claimed my actions so that's it.

So...

You essentially had a one shot BP bodyguard and decided not to use it on the claimed PR and instead roleblock the pony that acfan had been attacking the entire game? And you also decided to NOT use your 'knifesmith/cop' role when the "miller" had claimed? And you used a RB (must hit scum X) over cop (must hit scum)? And you killed the most pro-town player? Not to mention I have

NEVER

seen a BP player that gets told when its used.

We are finishing massclaim, because I am almost positive you are scum here. Basically the "passive BP with BG" is enough to just lynch flat out. This may be the closest thing to NK-Immune Miller Vig that has happened since that famous event (then again im probably the only one who knows what that really even is - rookies).

Whoever is the JK/doc just claim it. I mean, if hp really is town the game is still almost a forced win for us, im just betting we have a JK/doc instead.

No lynching still. Forcewin is basically here - just need to figure out who does what.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Not gonna lie, this game has been boring me for some reason

and I'm pretty sure that town blew its load too early in terms of massclaiming

also I think the crazy 5-shot JoaT is town

-badcop

Your friendly neighborhood setup reviewer says no we didn't.

We

will

have only one scum left after today. Literally worst case scenario is something where we enter D5 with one scum and six alive. That's the

WORST

spot we can be in.

Really one of two things will happen here

1) No other protective role claims. SB is confirmed scum, hp is a one shot BP cop.
2) A protective role claims. What follows I will hold onto for a sec incase scum don't know how to play this.

Come on. JK/doc claim. We win. This pony still has a few tricks.

@Dyslx - Actually if you read some of my D1 posts, I breadcrumbed pretty hard we would be tracking acfan almost immediately after he claimed. Go read the last paragraph of 427.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Because until we finish massclaim you are just stunningly confusing town.

Also if you thought acfan was the doctor - there was your miller. No need to fear hitting another one.

We are finishing the massclaim. Im still betting there is a JK/doc and you went for the really bizzare info role gamble.

@Dyslx - We tracked him. He targeted the dead player. Makes it pretty clearcut he is scum in that case. When he claimed targeting hap it just confirmed it beyond a doubt.