Mini 1449 - Ordinary Town

[hapahauli]

post_id=4926404 time=1367613228 user_id=10128]VOTE: GoodCopBadCop because I don't like random votes

##Vote hp [leaves]

'Cause you don't like random votes yet are posting a random vote in the random voting stage... wat.

@ GoodCopBadCop

Are you a Hydra of some sort, or is this a posting-gimmick that you do?

[hapahauli]

Vote: GoodCopBadCop

Wagon time!

Let's not start a wagon against the biggest attention whore in the thread so far mmmmkay?

I'm a hydra of some sort

...

So how does your hydra work? Does one person post as BadCop and the other as GoodCop? Or do you both post as whatever character you like?

Such an interesting start this fine day!

VOTE: Varsoon Cause I like the way Toomai thinks

Um. You know that Toomai isn't voting Varsoon right now... right?

[hapahauli]

post_id=4928380 time=1367671065 user_id=10128]

post_id=4926404 time=1367613228 user_id=10128]VOTE: GoodCopBadCop because I don't like random votes

##Vote hp [leaves]

'Cause you don't like random votes yet are posting a random vote in the random voting stage... wat.

Nope, I voted for the person who random voted because I don't like random votes. Bulletproof logic if you ask me.

So you want to policy lynch people who RVS. Given how many people do that on this site, you'd probably want to lynch off 90% of the forum.

Also, given the ease with which you moved your vote off, how is your vote any different from a random vote?

[hapahauli]

Vote: GoodCopBadCop

Wagon time!

Let's not start a wagon against the biggest attention whore in the thread so far mmmmkay?

Why not? Not sure I like how fast it built up, but as long as it doesn't go much further, I don't see the problem. A bold statement was made that people don't agree with, so we put on some votes to get explanation or reaction.

The only person that made a semi-justified vote on GoodCopBadCop was yourself. The other two were like "WAGON TIME I VOTE NOW YAY!" Justified voting is a fine way of pressuring someone for additional information. "WAGON TIME" isn't.

...
How fast it built up? Three people are on the wagon. The hap comment is weird too,

stating that we shouldn't start a wagon against a vocal player

.

Holdonaminute. You apparently agree with my hesitancy about the GBGC "wagon" and find my comment weird. Thalk with me about that a bit.

Futhermore, the bolded is pretty straightforward and standard, no?

So you want to policy lynch people who RVS.

Votes generally do not exclusively mean "lynch this guy ASAP".

Of course. However I don't understand why he would vote someone on the basis that he hates RVS, while effectively making an RVS vote of his own.

It sounds to me like he's against it for no good reason, then begrudgingly "goes with the flow." I find that scummy, or at the very least something worth pursuing.

[hapahauli]

All dese votes
I'm not going to RVS.

But Toomai put a vote on me and he jumped on that wagon real fast,

So what does that make Toomai?

Also, surely you can comment on something else in these first two pages other than "half-insinuating" an OMGUS on Toomai. What do you think of HP and GBGC?

[hapahauli]

Of course.

However I don't understand why he would vote someone

on the basis that he hates RVS,

while effectively making an RVS vote of his own

.

A random vote is one that is made randomly, without reasoning or justification.

hp [leaves] placed his vote and gave a reason. Therefore, it isn't a random vote.

While this is my first game on this particular site (and I'm not as familiar with RVS as most), your statement above can't be right. In the "RVS" stage here, people frequently give random/bullshit reasons to vote people all the time (see ac1983fan's vote for someone being "french" or whatever). Those votes are clearly considered "random."

The problem with HP's vote is that it is critical of random voting while being effectively a random vote. And it's early Day 1, so that's as good as a reason to prod someone for more information as any.

Also...

Whether or not you like his reasoning doesn't matter. Whether or not he's already changed his vote doesn't matter. You're misrepresenting his actions (see the italicized quoted part) in order to justify your confusion, or misunderstanding, or whatever (see the underlined quoted part).

The point is that you're trying to call his actions into question, but you're pushing too hard on it.

This seems forced to me.

Vote: hapahauli

...did you just vote me for trying too hard?



Are you dumb or scum? Tell me which so I can adjust my vote accordingly.

[hapahauli]

Jake, thoughts on any players other than Scott? Curious what you think of HP and Zefiend.

[hapahauli]

While this is my first game on this particular site (and I'm not as familiar with RVS as most), your statement above can't be right. In the "RVS" stage here, people frequently give random/bullshit reasons to vote people all the time (see ac1983fan's vote for someone being "french" or whatever). Those votes are clearly considered "random."

The problem with HP's vote is that it is critical of random voting while being effectively a random vote. And it's early Day 1, so that's as good as a reason to prod someone for more information as any.

If you construe hp [leaves] vote as random there is nothing I can do to change your opinion, as we have different interpretations of the term "random vote." To me, his vote was not meant as a joke.

To rephrase it a bit differently, I find the fact that you "find <<what hp [leaves] did>> scummy, or at the very least something worth pursuing" is pushing to force an issue that's simply not worth it.

In regards to HP[leaves], his more recent posts (click) are fairly cavalier to the whole thing, so you're probably right about it being more of a joke/troll.

##Unvote

In regards to "forcing an issue that's just not worth it" - I disagree. The goal of early Day 1 is to get information and start discussion. Sometimes that involves forcing things. Usually everything on Day 1 is forced to some extent, until it reaches the point where you can leverage *actual* suspicion on someone.

Also...

Whether or not you like his reasoning doesn't matter. Whether or not he's already changed his vote doesn't matter. You're misrepresenting his actions (see the italicized quoted part) in order to justify your confusion, or misunderstanding, or whatever (see the underlined quoted part).

The point is that you're trying to call his actions into question, but you're pushing too hard on it.

This seems forced to me.

Vote: hapahauli

...did you just vote me for trying too hard?

I never said you were trying too hard. To clarify, I am voting for you because I don't like the way you are going after hp [leaves]. I feel as though there is nothing there to warrant going after, and your pushing on it and questioning is unsettling.

Eh I can understand that a bit better. Anyway, there's no way for me to defend myself if you "didn't like" the way I went after HP, so w/e.

[hapahauli]

Anyway I'm more concerned at this point with some of our 1-post-wonders right now,

Daemon385

and

Varsoon

.

All dese votes
I'm not going to RVS.

But Toomai put a vote on me and he jumped on that wagon real fast,

There's zero objective purpose to this post other than to "check-in" and push non-committal suspicion.

What's the point of coming in just to say you're not going to RVS? Also, that line on Toomai is pretty sketchy. It's this odd mix between a summary and passively pushing suspicion. It's like saying "Hey guys! You should be suspicious of Toomai!" while reaching no objective conclusion himself.

Such an interesting start this fine day!

VOTE: Varsoon

Cause I like the way Toomai thinks

The most important thing about this post is that it shows that Daemon isn't reading the thread. Toomai

initially

had his vote parked on Varsoon, but had moved it before Daemon made this post.

It looks like Daemon skimmed the thread, plopped a vote down for the sake of blending-in, then skipped town.

Also, it wasn't an interesting start to the day

[hapahauli]

you are a fan of long paragraphs containing rubbish aren't you?

Cuz thats all I saw from Zef

I like your reasoning on NicCage though, keep it up sport

I want to see NC fail to come up with logic for a vote first - less info I give him on where im coming from more likely it is he oversteps a boundary.

Zef is town though, the post you voted him on is townish but 58 is wow-town.

Your post didn't have a NC vote though. It should have.

Regarding Zef, I don't sense anything malicious in his push on me (mainly post 58), but "wow-town" is a bit of a stretch. Is there something I'm missing here? Short of some meta-read, the post seems pretty normal/null to me.

[hapahauli]

Also regarding NC.... meh. I do want to hear his reasoning for voting Zef, but that vote seemed a lot to me like some early-game RVS antics rather than a serious vote. I don't think it's alignment indicative.

I prefer Daemon or Varsoon at this point for reasons stated above:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4930042

##Vote: Varsoon

[hapahauli]

Anyway I'm more concerned at this point with some of our 1-post-wonders right now, Daemon385 and Varsoon.

Is there a reason you didn't include Dyslexicon in this statement if you're investigating low content producers?

'cause he's not here. He'll have some 'splainin to do for why he's late to the party, but absence is not alignment indicative.

[hapahauli]

Anyway I'm more concerned at this point with some of our 1-post-wonders right now, Daemon385 and Varsoon.

Is there a reason you didn't include Dyslexicon in this statement if you're investigating low content producers?

'cause he's not here. He'll have some 'splainin to do for why he's late to the party,

but absence is not alignment indicative.

But 1-post wonders

are

a cause for concern? (ie. they

do

offer an alignment indication?)

So let me see if I'm following this thought train correctly:

• i. The locomotives (posters) who pull out from the station and start puffing (posting) along are not of concern (at least, in our current thought train)
  ii. However, the locomotives who pull out from the station and travel one stop (1-post-wonder)
  are
  of concern
  iii. Yet the locomotives who sit idly in the station showing no signs of pulling out
  are not
  a concern

Correct? Well let me couple that to the following:

• i. In this game we have had a public confirmation take place. Dyslexicon's "confirmz" is there for all to see.
  ii. Yet why are his no posts of no concern to you? Why is there an arbitrary line drawn between a no-poster and a 1-post-wonder?
  iii. It's strange that you respond to the question about reasoning with an attempted reason. But
  'cause he's not here
  doesn't work, 'cause he
  was
  here.
  iv. I'm willing to see a greater implication by not including Dyslexicon in your 'concern for low content producers' post; you know something most of us don't

FoS @ hapahauli

What's arbitrary? Dyslexicon is awol from the thread. He posted his /confirmz thing and hasn't shown up since. He could have some RL thing for all I know. The point is that it isn't allignment indicative.

Secondly, did you actually LOOK at my suspicions on Varsoon and Daemon? I'm

not

suspicious of them only because they made one post. It's the content of those posts that I find suspicious.

Stop ignoring my post and tell me what you think of them.

[hapahauli]

What's arbitrary? Dyslexicon is awol from the thread. He posted his /confirmz thing and hasn't shown up since. He could have some RL thing for all I know. The point is that it isn't allignment indicative.

Right, for the same token those 1-post-wonders could have some RL things keeping them from posting more too. So you either make a point of the low post count or don't bring it up at all. If 1 post is

part

of the reason you find those two concerning, then accept my criticism or find a better way to counter it.

I'm pretty sure I did "counter" your criticisms - I'm not policy voting lurkers here. I'm going after two players that I found scummy for their posts. Lurking is a factor, but far from the only factor.

Alright, point taken. Post count isn't the only factor, you said some other stuff. I too asked Daemon to expand on his opening post in #30, I didn't like parts of it. As for Varsoon, he's only posted once, so I haven't developed much of a read yet.

Yes, but what do you think of my analysis? I thought I laid it out pretty clearly why those individual posts are suspect.

See the thing is, if you imagine each player who has posted more than once to have simply made a series of single posts then you can actually take those single posts of theirs, compare them, analyse them etc. etc.

What you have done is taken two players and singled them out because they have only posted once

and

you find that one post is suspicious. So is the one post thing coincidental then? Or part of that picture of suspicion? Also, do you have any reads/suspicion on people who have posted multiple times?

The one-post thing is

somewhat

coincidental. Their relative inactivity is a contributing factor, but not the sole factor in my suspicions. I think my original post on the subject makes this pretty clear.

As far as other reads go (on people posting multiple times), no scumreads. Well maybe a slight suspicion/annoyance about NC, but my gut says that his sheep vote is more of a "trolly" thing. I have a fairly strong town-read on GCBC though. The "bad cop" side demands a lot of attention to himself, seems very naturally suspicious of people, and has a bravado I associate with aggressive townies.

I consider a series of single posts from an individual much easier to read into than a single post.

Of course. However we don't have the luxury of having giant filters to dive into right now. You have to start somewhere, and this is where I feel best to start.

You're acting as if I've locked on to these players and I'll be suspicious of these guys for the duration of the cycle, which isn't my motive at all. I found two of their posts suspect, and I need to hear more from them. That's how information is generated early in the game.

[hapahauli]

What's arbitrary? Dyslexicon is awol from the thread. He posted his /confirmz thing and hasn't shown up since. He could have some RL thing for all I know. The point is that it isn't allignment indicative.

Secondly, did you actually LOOK at my suspicions on Varsoon and Daemon? I'm

not

suspicious of them only because they made one post. It's the content of those posts that I find suspicious.

Stop ignoring my post and tell me what you think of them.

All three have however given out the same amount of content, just the two you mention have more words.
NicCage also has the approximately the same level.

Not quite. Dyslexicon has 0 content. Varsoon and Daemon don't have much content, but that content is scummy, and I think I laid out clearly why that is the case.

Yes we don't know if real life stuff is happening, but we also don't know if the others also had real life stuff on causing them to post only 1 post. Especially in the case of Varsoon, who as you stated had just checked in.

I'm not purely lurker lynching here. It's not doubt a motive of mine to pressure lurkers to be active, but not the only reason why I'm suspicious of the two.

Again, Daemon has made it clear that he's not reading the thread. Varsoon made a post to the effect of "Hi, I'm announcing my presence and doing nothing, but hey you guys should consider being suspicious of Toomai."

I don't understand why their lack of activity precludes you from pursuing what are two individually scummy posts.

It's also that you're attacking them only 1 day after they posted, when you had already questioned them once.
It's overeagerness to have people focusing on lurkers.

I normally play on a site with 48-hour cycles, so perhaps I'm not used to what's considered "acceptable activity" here. However I don't think there's such a thing as "overeagerness" regarding lurky players. I'm of the opinion that you have to start ensuring activity early on by any means necessary.

Active towns win games. Fact.

[hapahauli]

Active towns win games. Fact.

Sure thing, and currently - in your opinion - all these active players before us are town?

It's not the idea to keep harking on about the no post, 1 post, active thing at the expense at what you said about those two 1-post-wonders. But your initial reply to the question in #77 was just sooo interesting in it's specificity.

So you've picked two players with 1 post, and both those singular posts give you an indication of their alignment, yet 0 posts doesn't, and those two players both having made 1 post that so happens to both raise your suspicion is

somewhat

coincidental, so it's not a policy lynch on lurkers, just suspicion on two less than active players, but even lesser active players aren't suspicious, so we should just take it at face value that these posts were scummy and you've openly expressed that they were scummy and in no way should we group to coincidental nature of their post count together or the fact that you collectively referred to them as "1-post-wonders" and have simply identified two scummy posts and directed everyone to them... *gasps for breath*

I thought "1-post-wonders" was catchy and would be more effective in presenting my suspicions. Clearly that backfired somewhat, but my use of a catchy-phrase doesn't determine what my suspicions and intentions are.

It seems as though you object more with how I presented my suspicions than my actual suspicions. If so, stop this pointless nitpicking. You're wasting both of our times.

How can I get round to any details of the points raised when I'm still trying to wrap my head around what's actually going on?

I've laid this out about three or four times for you, so this is the last time I'm going to try this before I just give up on this conversation and move on.

Basically you

still

for whatever reason think that I'm policy-lurker lynching here, when that's not the case. I have two suspicions on different players that are based on their individual posting.

[hapahauli]

Hey, Hapa, I'm not late to the party, I'm fashionably late.
Reading through I also found it a bit strange that Hapa didn't mention me, but only the ones with 1 post. But his and CheeryP's discussion doesn't really scream scumminess on either side.
Btw, can't blame my absence on rl stuff. More wasn't in the mood for RVS and a headache.
NC's vote and explanation is weird. I don't get it.
Meh, that's all.

If this is the best you can come up with after being gone for 2 days, I can't say that I'm thrilled. There's not one remotely concrete read in here. I get that it's possible not to be sure of things at this stage, but geez don't you have any questions to ask? Aren't you curious about

anything

?

@hp, I'd rather stay in my lighthouse where I live, with my binocular, sipping on some coffee.

Aka, wait with a vote until I get the urge to read more carefully through.

Seems like votes are flying high anyways. Keep it up sports!

We have 4 pages of thread. That's not difficult to catch up on at all. You sound lazy and lack any sense of urgency to find mafia. What gives?

[hapahauli]

I'm not sure why NicCage has rounded up so many votes so quickly. it seems like people have latched onto a small handful of things he's said and jumped to seemingly ridiculous conclusions. I don't see how we have enough information about him to justify the number of votes he has. I think NC is more likely town whose wagon is being pushed by scum because it could feasibly give an easy d1 lynch for them.

VOTE: Daemon385. His first post was very iffy and he hasn't posted since then; it could just be his newness clouding his actions but for the moment I think this is a good place for my vote.

I am afraid I have to agree with this.

Don't know about there being scum on his wagon. There's enough players that this could be a town v town thing.

Anyway, it's finals week for me, so I'm not going to be as active as I usually am. Also, this game is moving at a mile a minute!

Is it just the NC thing you agree with, or his vote on Daemon as well? Do you have any suspicions or reads at this stage?

[hapahauli]

Don't agree with the vote.
I agree that NicCage's wagon is being pushed really fast.

Since you've read the thread enough to know about the wagon, I'd assume you've read the thread enough to propose an alternative. Any suspicions?

[hapahauli]

@ HP

post_id=4931358 time=1367766396 user_id=10128]

Hey Toomai, I think you've started to bus NicCage too soon.

I'd move my vote to you if Cage's explanation for his vote wasn't a description of his last vote (you know, if we exclude the reasoning part). But we still have tomorrow, right?

post_id=4932237 time=1367792341 user_id=10128]

I'm not sure why NicCage has rounded up so many votes so quickly. it seems like people have latched onto a small handful of things he's said and jumped to seemingly ridiculous conclusions. I don't see how we have enough information about him to justify the number of votes he has. I think NC is more likely town whose wagon is being pushed by scum because it could feasibly give an easy d1 lynch for them.

I disagree. Driving a wagon to L-2 on page 4 is too bold for scum. We're looking for the sneaky guys here. I don't think anyone on the wagon is scum.

Except Toomai

Why are you suspicious of Toomai? I can't find any rationale in your filter whatsoever.

[hapahauli]

post_id=4932314 time=1367795256 user_id=10128]

Well, first, he took Cop's second RVS vote too seriously (unless Cop was also serious, which I doubt).

Secondly, Cop wagon was evidently a wagon I didn't like and Toomai was on it. Thirdly, his overall play strikes me as overly cautious. I can't say he's the best good lynch for today, but he's worth going after tomorrow. And also today.

Those are reasonable points, but why didn't you bring them up before? You say he's worth pressuring today, yet idly stating he's suspicious twice, then not stating your rationale until I prod you about it isn't a very effective way of "going after" someone.

[hapahauli]

@ Toomai

What is your current read on GBGC? You were suspicious of him initially, then dropped all mention of him to go after NC. You completely lost interest in him (not asking him questions, etc) without having ever explained why in-thread.

Also, one thing that gets me about your play is that you seem too trusting. You've given town-reads on myself, Cherry, and even Daemon to an extent. Your suspicions on GBGC also play into this, where you kinda just dropped them a while ago and haven't shown any interest in GBGC since.

[hapahauli]

I'm not really following you here.

...Also didn't like how the sequence of 37-39-41 contained dubious logic, a sheep vote, and a request/demand for more sheep - the wagon itself was not a bad idea for why I said in 87 but

he jumped on it without even waiting for the answer to the question of why.

Actually, now that I look at it, he jumped on it after NicCage asked why him and not me. That makes no sense.

Regarding the bolded, why do his actions not make sense? From my point of view, NC had made two questionable posts, and GBGC simply plopped his vote down in response. In fact several players (including yourself) have acknowledged that those posts by NC were sketchy. Given this, how could you be suspicious of GBGC for doing essentially what you did, but earlier?

[hapahauli]

It seems as though you object more with how I presented my suspicions than my actual suspicions. If so, stop this pointless nitpicking. You're wasting both of our times.

I agree with this, however I consider it to have been a necessary evil. Just latched on to something and thus became a stickler for clarity as a result, didn't deliberately set out to do so or waste time. I don't feel the time has been wasted. I've actually appreciated the responses and am better off for them, but if that's done your head in then...

So what you said on Varsoon seemed accurate, but too early to establish anything. Yet, now there's been a couple of posts that sound a bit like a tennis commentator saying "and he's used his racquet to hit the ball" in terms of game insight (ie. very little). I don't like the developing pattern, it's still too early to establish this as an alignment read imo, but I hope it changes nonetheless.

And Daemon remains cemented with that 1 post in hand. I've asked him to follow up on it, you want him to follow up on it, I'm sure everyone would like some sort of follow up. But until there is a follow up we'll have to remain level-headed with our discontent. It's not an easy or necessarily sensible road to point

j'accuse

fingers at either of these two just yet.

Eh sorry, it's just a bit frustrating being on the receiving end some times. I don't mind nitpicking, but when it gets to something like this...

So you've picked two players with 1 post, and both those singular posts give you an indication of their alignment, yet 0 posts doesn't, and those two players both having made 1 post that so happens to both raise your suspicion is somewhat coincidental, so it's not a policy lynch on lurkers, just suspicion on two less than active players, but even lesser active players aren't suspicious, so we should just take it at face value that these posts were scummy and you've openly expressed that they were scummy and in no way should we group to coincidental nature of their post count together or the fact that you collectively referred to them as "1-post-wonders" and have simply identified two scummy posts and directed everyone to them... *gasps for breath*

... it's a bit much. It's something that you can't help but go

"ughhhhh realllly...."[/] at... ya know?

Aaaaanyway I hope you understand where I'm coming from after all of this. If not, all I can really say is that there are large stylistic differences in our play. It's my first game on this site, so it's not like I'm going to magically conform to to how things work here. However I do believe my approach has it's own merits, and it's brought me a ton of success in the past.

[hapahauli]

@ Jake

so jake from rainbowdash, why is it obvious that zefiend is town?

I can't speak for dashie and at first I wasn't sure where she was getting it from but if you look at what was being said.

Hap is pushing the hp suspicion too hard, especially because it's based on faulty logic (saying that HP leaves hates RVS yet her RVS'd). HP leaves didn't random vote, he voted for a reason. Hap later changes his reasoning into "HP leaves wanted to policy lynch"

all of that is pushing way too hard on something that is completely null. Hap's reaction to HP's vote on BadCop comes off very bad and zef is really the only one who called it out. That gives Zef town points imo

post 58 just reiterates that Hap is seems very serious about HP being scum, yet the reasoning for Hap's suspicion is absolutely horrible, especially when there is more scummier people. Personally HP's vote on Bad cop looked like a reaction test to which Hap reacted badly

Maybe dashie can explain her thoughts, but that is basically what i came up with on my own.

-J

Are these your own suspicions, or simply your interpretations of your other head's suspicions?

Either way, I have many gripes with this. For one, it's some very convoluted logic. You basically assume that two people are town (HP and Zef) in order to call me suspicious, which is insane this early in the game.

Secondly, you're fixated on me taking my suspicions on HP too far when that's been over and done with for a while now. At this point you seem to be beleaguering the point here, which screams hypocrisy on your end.

[hapahauli]

@ Varsoon

Don't agree with the vote.
I agree that NicCage's wagon is being pushed really fast.

Since you've read the thread enough to know about the wagon, I'd assume you've read the thread enough to propose an alternative. Any suspicions?

There's a lot of content here, and that's a good thing. It just means I need to read up a bit more.

As of now, though? I could see scum between Dyslexicon and Daemon. I find that scum doesn't jump on early wagons so much. That said, I'm pretty sure there's gotta be some scum between the NicCage and zefiend wagons. I'm really suspicious off GoodCopBadCop, less so of Ponydash and NicCage.

Either way, narrowing down suspicions isn't a good thing to do. I'll likely ISO everyone in a few days and figure out where I stand on all of this.

Why are you suspicious of GCBC? You seem to have some conviction about him, and no rationale to speak of.

Also elaborate on Dyslexicon an Daemon please. Them not jumping on wagons isn't allignment indicative - hell you yourself are suspicious on that basis no? Are there other reasons why you could "see" them as scum?

As far as people calling me scum, I find it laughable. I just haven't been very active or produced much so far, and for that, I do apologize. I should really be on V/LA this week, but I will be peeking in from time to time.

What's laughable about it? You've given us no content - what are we supposed to think?

Anyway you seem more active now, so I'll give you time to do your thing. I do expect you to contribute though, as if not for you claiming to be "busy", your behavior so far is worthy of suspicion.

[hapahauli]

Actually, now that I look at it, he jumped on it after NicCage asked why him and not me. That makes no sense.

Regarding the bolded, why do his actions not make sense?

the "why me and not someone else" comment has absolutely no town motivation, instead it is a self preservation comment.

I didn't think of this. I figured that whenever anyone asks "why X and not Y" they are asking a reasonable question that deserves an answer, but I didn't consider that the case where X = self has a possibility of being blame-shifting.

Soooo... then you have no reason to be suspicious of GBGC then... is that correct?

Honestly I find it rather hard to believe that you were so suspicious of NC yet failed to think about one of the major reasons behind people voting him.

[hapahauli]

Oh,

##Unvote Varsoon

'cause of post #122. Forgot to do that.

[hapahauli]

Are these your own suspicions, or simply your interpretations of your other head's suspicions?

Either way, I have many gripes with this. For one, it's some very convoluted logic. You basically assume that two people are town (HP and Zef) in order to call me suspicious, which is insane this early in the game.

Secondly, you're fixated on me taking my suspicions on HP too far when that's been over and done with for a while now. At this point you seem to be beleaguering the point here, which screams hypocrisy on your end.

1. Are which suspicions mine? All I was doing was attempting to provide my reasoning why I felt zef was town. Zef calling you out reads town.

Yes, but you calling Zef town carried with it a lot of assumptions about other players alignments.

But you did answer my question - I wanted to know if you were simply trying to rationalize your partner's reads or providing your own analysis. Sounds like the latter.

2. Having town reads early on in the game isn't insane, but you don't even have to automatically assume a player is town, they can still be considered null. Zef found an issue with your action, calling out that action and voting you is 100% pro-town. Even if Zef is wrong about you and you are actually town, her action is still town motivated.

I find associative tells in general very suspect, and your initial post sounded like you were basing your read on associations between HP and myself. Though you seem to be indicating that you find Zef's mindset during her pursuit of me townie individually. That's a bit better, but I'm still not sure why that is grounds for a strong town read on Zef at this stage in the game.

3. this is basically untrue, dare I even say a mis-rep. I was responding to a direct question about our town read on Zef, it has absolutely nothing to do about you. Basically I think Zef's actions indicate pro-town behavior. I am sure Dashie may have more to add but that is how I am interpreting it.

Yeah disregard that. For some reason I read your post initially as suspicion on me rather than justifying your town-read on Zef. Little too OMGUS'y on my end.

p.edit - @ hap - you don't have to do the double hashtag before each vote/unvote

It's a habit =/

[hapahauli]

Associative tells without flips isn't really suspect imo but it's kind of hard to do because you don't know for sure if someone is town or not. If I read a player as town then you absolutely can look at people attacking them to help find scum

(This is yet another reason why I wanted to hydra with dashie, it annoyed the ever living shit out of me how she could come in and say "this person is town" & "that person is town" and as such I always suspected her as scum. I am sure she will explain her read on zef when she gets here (she can't really post during the day cause it's blocked at work) but I am hoping my speculations are close to what she is picking up, and if not she will post hers.

That's not really associative though. That's finding someone suspicious because they're being illogical/stupid in their suspicions, no?

Eh well that's off topic, you don't need to answer that.

I will let dashie explain her "wow town" reasoning, personally zef is town because I see town motivation in calling you out, not scum motivation.

Fair fair. I'll wait for rainbow's return then.

[hapahauli]

Anyway my top suspicion at the moment is

Toomai

:
1) He lacks the "natural suspicion" of a town player
2) His suspicions of GBGC/NicCage are inconsistent.

1) He lacks the "natural suspicion" of a town player

Toomai is a fairly newer player, and I find that newer players often wear their emotions on their sleeves or make it very clear that they're suspicious of like everrrrryone in the thread. That mentality isn't present with Toomai in several noticeable instances:

Cheery Pie and hapahauli are both pretty town. I'm not seeing poor logic on either side of their discussion.

How can I get round to any details of the points raised when I'm still trying to wrap my head around what's actually going on?

Seems pretty simple to me: hapahauli looked for the people that weren't posting, saw the two people with 1 post, and found them to be scummy. You brought up someone who has no posts and hapahauli went either "hmm, didn't think of that, but you can't really do much to no-posters early Day 1" or "I noticed, but you can't really do much to no-posters early Day 1". That's how I see it anyway.
...

Fairly early on, he gives a pretty strong town-read on myself and Cheery based on the argument we had. I find this pretty ungrounded this early in the game - at this point, we had made like... 10 posts each? Maybe a town feeling, but far too early to call two people town. This could be excusable on its own, however there's more of a pattern:

Such an interesting start this fine day!

VOTE: Varsoon Cause I like the way Toomai thinks

This looks pretty RVS (referencing my random vote), I don't know why people are jumping on it. Also it probably doesn't count since it's not bolded.

He randomly soft-defends Daemon here. This is odd because a) there's no indication that Toomai thinks that Daemon is town and b)

Daemon did not get attacked at all for that post at that time

. What's odd is that he's willing to defend someone so readily and so early in the game based off one post. I'd expect someone to be much more naturally suspicious here.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4931275

I'm gonna concur with the NicCage suspicion since, while Varsoon and Daemon385 made one bad post each that could be construed as RVS (if you have a really open mind)

, NicCage has made about three bad posts with about the same amount of content.

This one is the most suspicious one methinks. He basically says that Varsoon and Daemon are really really suspicious, and you have to have "a really open mind" to think their votes are RVS, but shows a complete lack of concern with them. No questions, no interest, no nothing. It's like he doesn't care.

2) His suspicions of GBGC/NicCage are inconsistent

Toomai is initially suspicious of GBGC for his reasoning. Note that this isn't a random "RVS" suspicion - it is fairly serious:

4 posts, 4 seperate votes on different people?

this is bullshit, all 3 of you are actively trying to reduce town's information thus the scumteam is HP, Toomai, and ac1983fan

Ridiculously terrible reasoning. Random is random; not joining wagons in the first 5 posts is beyond a null tell.

Vote: GoodCopBadCop

I see your point, but from my perspective it was a serious kind of bad reasoning, given that he had already placed a random vote.

However despite being suspicious of GBGC, he never asks him questions and never follows up on it. Instead, he all of a sudden "concurrs" with the NC wagon when it starts gaining traction:

...
I'm gonna concur with the NicCage suspicion since, while Varsoon and Daemon385 made one bad post each that could be construed as RVS (if you have a really open mind), NicCage has made about three bad posts with about the same amount of content.

Vote: NicCage

(that's 5/7)

He drops GBGC without so much as a word, then magically is suspicious enough to vote him again the second I remind him of GBGC:

I see GCBC as mostly null leaning weak scum. My original vote on it was because I took 19 seriously, which others have said may not be the case and I now somewhat agree with. Also didn't like how the sequence of 37-39-41 contained dubious logic, a sheep vote, and a request/demand for more sheep - the wagon itself was not a bad idea for why I said in 87 but he jumped on it without even waiting for the answer to the question of why.

Actually, now that I look at it, he jumped on it after NicCage asked why him and not me. That makes no sense.

Vote: GoodCopBadCop

I want these things answered:

• 19: Was this a serious (non-RVS) vote, and if so why?
• 39: Why did you only sheepvote NicCage after he asked why he was being singled out?

However the above rationale makes no sense. He's essentially suspicious of GBGC for being suspicious of NC -

whom is one of Toomai's scumreads!

His explanation when confronted with this?

Actually, now that I look at it, he jumped on it after NicCage asked why him and not me. That makes no sense.

Regarding the bolded, why do his actions not make sense?

the "why me and not someone else" comment has absolutely no town motivation, instead it is a self preservation comment.

I didn't think of this. I figured that whenever anyone asks "why X and not Y" they are asking a reasonable question that deserves an answer, but I didn't consider that the case where X = self has a possibility of being blame-shifting.

"Derp I didn't think about this."

I don't buy it. I find it very hard to believe that he didn't think about this viewpoint at all, given how many people were suspicious of that particular quote by NC. Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that Toomai, whom was suspicious of NC then (and is still presumably suspicious of him now) would suddenly come up with a "townie-NC" reading of NC's quote so naturally.

##Vote Toomai

[hapahauli]

@ HP

Wall-o-texts are kinda my thing =/

Anyway what do you "like" about the post - do you agree with my logic? Or do you just think it's a "townie" post?

Also, I still want an answer to this:

post_id=4932314 time=1367795256 user_id=10128]

Well, first, he took Cop's second RVS vote too seriously (unless Cop was also serious, which I doubt).

Secondly, Cop wagon was evidently a wagon I didn't like and Toomai was on it. Thirdly, his overall play strikes me as overly cautious. I can't say he's the best good lynch for today, but he's worth going after tomorrow. And also today.

Those are reasonable points, but why didn't you bring them up before? You say he's worth pressuring today, yet idly stating he's suspicious twice, then not stating your rationale until I prod you about it isn't a very effective way of "going after" someone.

[hapahauli]

Thanks, Scott, but it's too endearing to call me scum like that.

I'd like a GCBC flip or a NicCage flip.
Although, I really like Nic, so I guess,
Either a Toomai flip or a

hapahauli flip would also be good.

Would you like concrete reads?
Here you go. No nulls.

ACFAN: Scum.
CHEERPIE: Town.
DAEMON: Scum.
DYSLEXICON: Scum.
GCBC: Scum.

HAPAH: Town.

HPLEAVES: Town.
PONYJAKE: Scum.
NICCAGE: Scum.
QWINTS: Scum.
SCOTT: Scum.
TOOMAI: Town.
ZEFIEND: Scum.

Too many players with less than 5 posts.
Unacceptable.

I consider stuff like the bolded generally lynchable.

Why on earth do you wan to to flip someone that you think is town?

[hapahauli]

Because it'd give good info from what you've said so far and what people have responded to.
Yawn.

I see this "lynching for information" thing from time-to-time from newbies. That's when I usually lecture them about how lynching for information is a

terrible

idea, and anything but lynching people you think are mafia is a

terrible

idea.

The problem is that you don't act as if you're a new player, and your tone implies you are semi-experienced. And for a semi-experienced player, this is as close to a "scum-slip" as you can get. Mafia want to lynch townies, and you seem to be wearing your motive on your sleeve right now.

[hapahauli]

Actually, now that I look at it, he jumped on it after NicCage asked why him and not me. That makes no sense.

Regarding the bolded, why do his actions not make sense?

the "why me and not someone else" comment has absolutely no town motivation, instead it is a self preservation comment.

I didn't think of this. I figured that whenever anyone asks "why X and not Y" they are asking a reasonable question that deserves an answer, but I didn't consider that the case where X = self has a possibility of being blame-shifting.

"Derp I didn't think about this."

I don't buy it. I find it very hard to believe that he didn't think about this viewpoint at all, given how many people were suspicious of that particular quote by NC. Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that Toomai, whom was suspicious of NC then (and is still presumably suspicious of him now) would suddenly come up with a "townie-NC" reading of NC's quote so naturally.

Basically, I didn't know that said post was a major reason people were voting him. I thought it was the combination of three posts with no content and one question. Was it made obvious anywhere?

As for the rest of your post about me - I can't defend against it. I did things that I thought were good ideas and turned out to be mistakes. Now I have to delete the erronous reads and sit around and be lost until something happens that's worth voting for because I only know how to respond to discussion, not how to create it.

Unvote

I suppose it's hard to defend, but I do want to emphasize that I'm not committed to lynching you by any means. I'm interested to hear what you say, and the more you talk to me, the quicker I'll be able to determine your actual alignment.

If you're town, stay open with your thoughts and you'll be fine. If you're scum... well keep doing what you're doing

Toomai is a fairly newer player, and I find that newer players often wear their emotions on their sleeves or make it very clear that they're suspicious of like everrrrryone in the thread. That mentality isn't present with Toomai in several noticeable instances:

I feel like picking this out though. I don't have either of these characteristics because 1. acting suspicious of everyone is itself suspicious (so I've been told) and 2. historically nothing good has ever come of me being emotional.

Yeah but the thing is that you can often trace a town mentality through non-newbies through their flow of suspicion. I have a reasonably strong town-read on GBGC for this - he acts very paranoid and his actions suggest that he doesn't know player allignments (like scum would).

Also, there are merits towards being emotional/paranoid at times, as it gives people more information about you. It's very difficult to read a mafia-robot ya know?

[hapahauli]

Thanks, Scott, but it's too endearing to call me scum like that.

I'd like a GCBC flip or a NicCage flip.
Although, I really like Nic, so I guess,
Either a Toomai flip or a hapahauli flip would also be good.

Would you like concrete reads?
Here you go. No nulls.

ACFAN: Scum.
CHEERPIE: Town.
DAEMON: Scum.
DYSLEXICON: Scum.
GCBC: Scum.
HAPAH: Town.
HPLEAVES: Town.
PONYJAKE: Scum.
NICCAGE: Scum.
QWINTS: Scum.
SCOTT: Scum.
TOOMAI: Town.
ZEFIEND: Scum.

Also a couple of more things about this post: concrete reads are worthless without rationale. This is literally a worthless way of contributing since it's impossible to hold you accountable for anything.

Also curious why you find Toomai town in light of my recent case on him.

Too many players with less than 5 posts.
Unacceptable.

This rings incredibly hollow coming from you... ya know?

[hapahauli]

@ GBGC

Is GoodCop ever going to post?

@ Scott

Any reads other than Varsoon?

[hapahauli]

Understand where you're coming from, Hapa.

You just seem way too eager to play town.

What does this even mean...

And again, I can't rationalize at all how you think lynching people you think are town for information is a good idea. What information could you possibly gain from those lynches that you couldn't gain for other lynches?

Furthermore, I haven't seen this lynching-for-information stuff in

any

of your past town games I've read so far.

[hapahauli]

Shouldn't be reading my past games at all to get a good read on what I'm doing in

this

game.
Also, while you're reading my previous games, please read that I've been applying different approaches to the game with each set of games I've played.

When I'm reading past games, I'm trying to understand how you think as town and as mafia. There's not much of a sample size of your mafia games, but as town, you're generally more direct with your suspicions. This game has been quite the opposite, and I don't understand why you'd take a different "approach" to the game that would involve you being more wishy-washy and wanting to info lynch.

When I have more time, I'll articulate my stance.
I'd honestly rather lynch scum, Hapa.

If you think I'd lynch town for info instead of lynching an active scum-suspect, you're dead wrong.

Thing is that I don't get that impression at all. Consider your quote on the subject:

I'd like a GCBC flip or a NicCage flip.
Although, I really like Nic, so I guess,
Either a Toomai flip or a hapahauli flip would also be good.

You show a general ambivalence about who you want to lynch. As far as I'm concerned, you really don't care who gets lynched between the four people you mention here, else you wouldn't mention lynching two townies in the same breath as two of your scum suspects.

Hell you justify not lynching one of you scum-suspects (NicCage) because you like him, then move on to express interest to lynching two of your town reads.

[hapahauli]

Thanks for the explanation Rainbow - I too got townie vibes from his "full circle" post, but I was initially concerned that you based your entire town read off of #58. Either way, fills in the gaps.

Regarding NC, he's growing on me as a scum-suspect since he's been about as useful as a trapdoor on a lifeboat. His play also feels very detached from the thread - as if he's playing a side-game with the suspicions against him rather than being involved in discussion.

However

, I have enough questions about Toomai and Varsoon at this point where I'm not going to commit to voting NC. What do you think about my suspicions about them?

[hapahauli]

This is what I want an answer to most Varsoon:

When I have more time, I'll articulate my stance.
I'd honestly rather lynch scum, Hapa.

If you think I'd lynch town for info instead of lynching an active scum-suspect, you're dead wrong.

Thing is that I don't get that impression at all. Consider your quote on the subject:

I'd like a GCBC flip or a NicCage flip.
Although, I really like Nic, so I guess,
Either a Toomai flip or a hapahauli flip would also be good.

You show a general ambivalence about who you want to lynch. As far as I'm concerned, you really don't care who gets lynched between the four people you mention here, else you wouldn't mention lynching two townies in the same breath as two of your scum suspects.

Hell you justify not lynching one of you scum-suspects (NicCage) because you like him, then move on to express interest to lynching two of your town reads.

Also...

I've also had more free time in my other games, and I was trying a more direct approach. Notice that I'm also fairly direct in previous scum games, too.

I only saw one scum-game in your filter, which was the 3-man-lylo themed game. Was there another one I missed?

Sometimes I just write things to see what people'll say about 'em.

Does this apply to this game? If so, what posts in particular? I didn't get the impression that you were fishing for reactions with any of your posts so far.

[hapahauli]

Honestly, I really like your case on Toomai,
But you're really articulated as town, and while that's a quality I love, it's also one that I find to be incredibly rare, surprisingly.
So, of course, I'm suspicious.

vote: Toomai

Like I said, I'd like to see a flip between you two.

So I assume that you now think Toomai is scum (since you previously listed him as town)?

Also as a larger point, you've offered very little in the way of analysis so far. You've been name dropping left and right, and even providing a "list of concrete reads", but your reads overall are devoid of rationale. Even this current vote on Toomai - there's no explanation behind it beyond it being a pure sheep vote.

Getting analysis out of you has been akin to pulling teeth so far, and I'd like to see some filter-diving from you.

[hapahauli]

@ Varsoon

Three things:

1) I still really need an answer to this Varsoon - it's the crux of my suspicions on you right now:

When I have more time, I'll articulate my stance.
I'd honestly rather lynch scum, Hapa.

If you think I'd lynch town for info instead of lynching an active scum-suspect, you're dead wrong.

Thing is that I don't get that impression at all. Consider your quote on the subject:

I'd like a GCBC flip or a NicCage flip.
Although, I really like Nic, so I guess,
Either a Toomai flip or a hapahauli flip would also be good.

You show a general ambivalence about who you want to lynch. As far as I'm concerned, you really don't care who gets lynched between the four people you mention here, else you wouldn't mention lynching two townies in the same breath as two of your scum suspects.

Hell you justify not lynching one of you scum-suspects (NicCage) because you like him, then move on to express interest to lynching two of your town reads.

2)

Like I said, I'd like to see a flip between you two.

I need you to explain this "lynching for information" thing to me more, because I don't get it at all. Why would you want to flip someone that you presumably think is town (hell you're basically treating me as a strong town at this point)?

Say you were able to organize a wagon on me and lynch me right now - what "information" would you gain from it that would be of more value than... say a lurker lynch?

3)

I'll provide a bit more tomorrow, I suppose.

I understand you have finals and all that (I finished my last one today :3), but if you keep putting off things until tomorrow, we're going to be at the deadline in no time.

[hapahauli]

@ Daemon

Hey man! Stick around - I need hear some from ya!

While I have not left the building, I certainty am still here though I admit a bit more silent then I wish. Regarding my post while yes strange (and admittedly a bit noobish) as it might be and I'll admit quite noobish a one post wonder isn't something I would not necessarily say any alignment. Though I would agree with suspicious; it could be a varied amount of different reasons for just the current one post.

At that point in the game (when I made my post on you), that was the only post you had. There were no other "reasons" I could have provided, though I believe my reasons were sufficient. You displayed that you weren't reading the thread, and that's not a pro-town thing to do.

[/Quote]As I said before the actions (or lack there of) of the one time posters so far I can see looking suspicious but not completely finger pointing since there is a lack of evidence. I am at fault for the lack of content but not at fault for a positive ID. Which I will soon correct. [bAnyways I myself can agree and would like to know as well can see what Hapa means in his statement regarding how that all brings just suspicion on us but as well as you as a possibility.[/b][/Quote]

I don't understand what you're asking here. Can you reword this?

Aaaaalso, you really haven't done much this game at all. Who are you suspicious of? Post some of your reads.

[hapahauli]

EBWOP (Sorry butchered the quotes)

@ Daemon

Hey man! Stick around - I need hear some from ya!

While I have not left the building, I certainty am still here though I admit a bit more silent then I wish. Regarding my post while yes strange (and admittedly a bit noobish) as it might be and I'll admit quite noobish a one post wonder isn't something I would not necessarily say any alignment. Though I would agree with suspicious; it could be a varied amount of different reasons for just the current one post.


At that point in the game (when I made my post on you), that was the only post you had. There were no other "reasons" I could have provided, though I believe my reasons were sufficient. You displayed that you weren't reading the thread, and that's not a pro-town thing to do.

As I said before the actions (or lack there of) of the one time posters so far I can see looking suspicious but not completely finger pointing since there is a lack of evidence. I am at fault for the lack of content but not at fault for a positive ID. Which I will soon correct.

Anyways I myself can agree and would like to know as well can see what Hapa means in his statement regarding how that all brings just suspicion on us but as well as you as a possibility.

I don't understand what you're asking here. Can you reword this?

Aaaaalso, you really haven't done much this game at all. Who are you suspicious of? Post some of your reads.

[hapahauli]

EBWOP again (I'm terrible at formatting, everything is spoilered below)

Spoiler:

@ Daemon

Hey man! Stick around - I need hear some from ya!

While I have not left the building, I certainty am still here though I admit a bit more silent then I wish. Regarding my post while yes strange (and admittedly a bit noobish) as it might be and I'll admit quite noobish a one post wonder isn't something I would not necessarily say any alignment. Though I would agree with suspicious; it could be a varied amount of different reasons for just the current one post.

At that point in the game (when I made my post on you), that was the only post you had. There were no other "reasons" I could have provided, though I believe my reasons were sufficient. You displayed that you weren't reading the thread, and that's not a pro-town thing to do.

As I said before the actions (or lack there of) of the one time posters so far I can see looking suspicious but not completely finger pointing since there is a lack of evidence. I am at fault for the lack of content but not at fault for a positive ID. Which I will soon correct.

Anyways I myself can agree and would like to know as well can see what Hapa means in his statement regarding how that all brings just suspicion on us but as well as you as a possibility.

I don't understand what you're asking here. Can you reword this?

Aaaaalso, you really haven't done much this game at all. Who are you suspicious of? Post some of your reads.

[hapahauli]

@ GC

Where have you been all game?

Also, why are you grave-digging my posts? I made that analysis on Daemon many days ago. The least you can do is look at my recent content.

@ BC

Is the scum team Varsoon/Hapa/RainbowJake?

There are many sane combinations of scumteams, but myself and Varsoon probably isn't one of them. Also I'm not thrilled about how you've disappeared off the face of the earth of late. You've acted townie in the early game, but I find myself questioning that read given how much name-dropping you're doing compared with actual analysis.

[hapahauli]

Also, why are you grave-digging my posts? I made that analysis on Daemon many days ago. The least you can do is look at my recent content.

Are you scared of past content? It's still valid for what your alignment might be
There's no need to be focused only on the present.

I'm not. I'm just fairly annoyed why the "good" half of GBGC took one of my posts to call me scummy and failing to take into account my 46 (now 47) other posts.

He made a read based on that post while admitting being too lazy to catch up with the whole thread.

It's a very irresponsible form of analysis.

THAT's more what I'm more concerned with here.

People are more than willing to look at my past posts, and I certainly will do the same to others. However the context of one's overall play is more important in analysis, and I often find that it is the scum who chose to beleaguer little, points to call someone scum while ignoring the rest of someone else's play.

[hapahauli]

@ Scott Brosius

You've averaged less than a post a day so far. Can I expect you to be more active in the future? Also, two things:

hap seems town, although

he is acting strangely/almost coaching towards Varsoon which is concerning

. He unvotes after a weak catchup post citing that Varsoon appears to be more active, and is generally being overly helpful specifically towards Varsoon.

Regarding the bolded, have you ever caught scum with this heuristic? This is a yes or no question.

Regarding me being "helpful" to Varsoon - I ask questions when I have doubts about a players alignment, because I want to get more information about them. Shouting someone down and tunneling them until they quit is counterproductive to this. There is a legitimate chance that Varsoon is behaving as he is due to being legitimately busy, and I want to entertain that possibility to the fullest extent that I can.

Liking GCBC for town, especially with recent GC commentary.

I thought that recent GC commentary was terrible. He dug through the first few pages of the game and made reads. After being gone for 5 days, that's the best he can do? He admitted to being too bored to finish reading the damn game. Making reads on incomplete information is terribly irresponsible.

[hapahauli]

Sigh. Two people are V/LA. Fantastic for activity. Really.

[hapahauli]

Sigh. There's really no excuse I can find for Nic's behavior at this point. 6 posts, all of them are terrible, and he's awol from the thread.

Problem is, my other scumreads are AWOL too =/

We have a week, and I don't want to be rushing this lynch. We shouldn't hammer quite yet, and we should get as much information as possible before we move onto Day 2. As such I'm not voting NC yet.

[hapahauli]

^^I don't like that post.

Both GoodCop and I could see Varsoon as scum, and neither of us have townreads on Vars, while Hapa is now a townread of GC's.

I also don't like how he responded to my poking around as though I'm being lame instead of just prodding for reactions. I don't remember you sticking out your ass for us?

-BadCop

Does the bad-cop side have any town-read at all? "I could see <xxxxxx> as scum" is inadequate at this stage of the game. If the bolded could be considered rationale, it's weak at best. Given the amount of material available in the thread about Varsoon (provided by yours truly at that), I find it hard to believe that the only thing you could mention about him is "i don't like how he responded to poking."

Again, I see a ton of name-dropping. I think you've called everyone in the thread scum by now, but I haven't seen you attempt to post any analysis.

[hapahauli]

Can we get more on the Toomai wagon.
Hapa, build a case against Toomai. You're good at that.

I have a case against Toomai. The problem is that Nic is

also

worthy of a lynch. His excuse is finals week, but there have been several people in this thread who have posted and made an effort despite of finals business.

Really the only reason I have to be hesitant about Nic is that no one is defending him - everyone and their mother is suspicious of Nic. Scum Bussing a teammate is possible, but I have my doubts that it would happen from the start of Day 1. The guy has been under suspicion all game.

Bleh I'm rambling.

I also have to rethink who I want to lynch today, because there are like 5 people I'd love to see shot/hanged at this point:
Scott Brosius
Daemon
Dyslexicon
NicCage
Toomai

All these guys are posting so little that it's impossible NOT to lynch them. And it's frustrating, because atleast 2 of them have to be town (assuming a 3-scum setup), yet chose to give half of a dick about this game.

I'll be filtering all of them and trying to decide on my favorite lynch tonight.

It's cool, Nic.
Take it easy, pass your finals, and drop NicCage puns.

Also, Hapa, I'm serious about us both teaming up for town purposes. I'll lurk and give you my vote, effectively making you a double-town. That's pretty awesome, right? Don't let scum latch on to our bloc, though.

GCBCDCABCDC or whatever he is is being kinda lame with this proposed Varsoon Hapa scumteam. I pretty much stuck my ass out for him and he smacked it.

I'm still down for the Toomai lynch.
That is, unless Hapa wants to vote someone else.

Whether or not you chose to purely sheep me is entirely your choice, but I'd prefer you to work independently. Your posting is much better of late, but you have not established yourself as town enough to where such a move would be good. People need to read you after all.

[hapahauli]

I'm pretty sure that

Varsoon

is town.

I've been questioning him for the last few days, and not once has he shown the slightest amount of guilt. In fact he's been very cavalier about suspicions towards him, and that's a really townie trait. It's becoming a pattern - no matter how many people are suspicious of him, he does not care. This is very townie.

Furthermore, while I was suspicious of him for the whole "lynching for information" thing (and it's fucking horrible logic), I can trace a coherent thought-process behind it. It's also similar to what he's done in some of his past town games, where he likes to pressure/vote active players to determine their alignment early.

Lastly, I find his absolute

blatant

offer to sheep me very townie. He sounds like a townie who's very excited to have someone to trust. It could be argued that this is "scum buddying a vocal townie", but I find that scum do this far more subtlety as not to draw attention to himself.

[hapahauli]

@ Toomai

- Talk with me about some of your reads. I realize that you claim that you are not a good discussion generator, but not posting isn't going to cut it at this point in the game. I need more information from you, else I'm going to be lynching you.

Dyslexicon:

In the background

Didn't like the last part of 93. 117 was decent but then 176/7.

You can't just link random posts and expect people to understand what you're saying.

WHY

don't you like posts 93 and 176?

WHY

do you like post 117?

Furthermore, what does "In the Background" even mean? Is he scummy or townie?

hp[leaves]:

Pretty much null

About even between town content and scum content I feel.

Where's the scum-content in hp's filter? Again you can't just say it exists and not point to it at all.

NicCage:

Ugh

Bad start, but not anything to go on since then, and I don't really update my reads much when people aren't posting. Still on my shortlist; won't vote him right now because of reasons previously stated (don't need a lynch for a few more days).

Why "Ugh" and not "scum?" I don't understand the distinction.

Scott Brosius:

Not bad

Mainly good stuff so far.

What's good in his filter? I think it's awful (for reasons I'll explain later).

Daemon385:

Ehh

Hasn't really done anything of notewortiness.[/list]

Why "Ehh"? If someone hasnt' done anything a week into the game, I'd probably be more suspicious of them than "ehh..."

[hapahauli]

@ Scott

I dislike a lot in your last two posts, enough to make me question whether or not I should be voting you instead of Toomai.

I post when I can, I try to post every day. I am extremely busy this week.

Being obsessed with everyone's post count will lead you nowhere.

My concern is that you unvoted immediately after a single post saying I GUESS WE CAN EXPECT MORE CONTENT! Yet after I post its HEY GONNA POST MORE?! My issue is with you treating people differently for similar circumstances. So to fawn to your demands, the answer is yes.

Firstly I heavily object to the bolded. Activity is pathetic in this thread, and since no one else is bothering, I have to do whatever I can to make people talk. Your lack of any sense of urgency in this regard is alarming.

I don't understand the unvote and lack of revote if that is all that sticks out. This is not town behavior.

This is also really silly. If you spent all of two minutes reading ac1983fan's post, it's clear that he unvoted because he has doubts about who he wants to place a vote on.

You're trying to spread suspicion on him for absolutely nonsensical and forced reasoning.

--------------------------------
As a last point, your entire suspicion of Varsoon is very sketchy.

This whole post reads as careful scum. Just no real concrete reads, somewhat excuse for lack of scumhunting with the "preference of a Day 1 flip". Then the admittance of not seeming town just looks like it wants pity or wants to appear town.

Unvote
Vote: Varsoon

For interest level, active lurking is much more interesting than lurking. Varsoon was posting filler with no strong reads or opinions at all. This was followed up by a sneery list of baseless reads.

Firstly, I find this rationale fairly weak. You initially voted Varsoon because you didn't like one of his posts. That's not adequate.

And now you come with the active-lurking accusation... but

dont' you realize that Varsoon is the 2nd most active player in the game right now?!

Your entire "pursuit" of Varsoon feels scummy to me. You've never asked him any questions, and it doesn't seem like you're interested in finding out his allignment. You're spending infinitely more time going after

everyone else

other than Varsoon. Hell you've asked me more questions than you've asked of your top scumread, which is all sorts of nonsensical.

[hapahauli]

I would disagree with me giving half a dick about this game. I simply have a little experience in regards to this type of mafia. The reason I am voting Nic is because he has just been wrenching at my gut for quite a while now and he is giving me no reason not to. Something doesn't register right with him. Finals or not if true is understandable, but that still doesn't keep me from being suspicious of him. I also don't trust Scott so much because in my opinion a lot what he says seems scummy.

And I'm the only one to draw some attention to you for sheeping and providing nothing, and conveniently I'm a new scum read! Very interesting.

Oh and this. Why are you taking credit for something you didn't do? People (such as I) were talking about Daemon far before this. If you can even call the following "going after" Daemon:

Out of everything that has happened since your previous post to this one, THIS is the one point you make?

Yeah you totally called him out there bro.

[hapahauli]

@ Toomai

I really, really like your last post (#229). It's well thought out and well written. Unfortunately I don't like the amount I have to prod you in order to provide such analysis.

There is still one thing I'd like you to elaborate on:

I still have him tied for bottom 4; it's not like I'm ignoring him. Probably again a case of not fully expanding notes.

Can you please expand on Daemon?

------
Also, one of the general problems I have with your play is your lack of initiative. Other than me having to pull reads out of you, I don't get any sense from your posting that you're trying to determine players' allignments. You've asked barely any questions all game. And even the ones you do...

...
I want these things answered:

• 19: Was this a serious (non-RVS) vote, and if so why?
• 39: Why did you only sheepvote NicCage after he asked why he was being singled out?

You said "no nulls". Did you squish your reads into the boolean format just to get rid of nulls, or do you actually have no nulls?

...I never see you follow up on them, or even factor them into your reads.

[hapahauli]

@ Cheery Pie

Y u no be active, I miss you =(

In all seriousness, I have no idea where you stand read-wise since your pursuit of me in the early game. Can you give me an idea of your scumreads at the moment?

[hapahauli]

@ Scott

If you want to be the participation police that is fine. There are going to be lurkers in every game you play.

There will be lurkers in every game for sure, but that doesn't mean I have to accept them or let that behavior slide. Lurking is incredibly anti-town, and I often heavily weigh my Day 1 lynch decisions to "useless" lurkers (such as yourself).

Regarding acfan, I don't understand why anyone who is town would not use their vote. I understand why he unvoted, but he presents a new read on Dyslex, yet does not act on that, just simply unvotes.

What's so complicated about this? He clearly has scumreads on two players, and is unsure of whom to vote. In fact he's displaying a hesitancy towards the vote that I view as very townie. It's not like he's hesitant out of his ass - he has clear reasons and seems well informed.

That's the situation I'm in as well right now - I'm contemplating unvoting Toomai because I'm finding you quite scummy right now.

If you understand the definition of active-lurking, then you wouldn't be citing his post total. I understand why you are defending Varsoon since he has pretty much been your puppy dog all game, but there is no content there outside of sheeping whatever you think. But apparently that makes him town to you...

Please read post #223 and consider my thoughts on the subject:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4943881

I'm more sensitive towards "scum buddying me" than you think. I'm a very vocal town player, and this stuff happens very often to me. It is the

blatant

manner in which he is buddying me that I find townie. I've seen townies do this in many games (especially busy ones), and scum are generally more mindful/fearful of their reputation to attempt such a move.

There are various ways to scumhunt, not everyone needs to follow your formula. Varsoon has done absolutely nothing to sway my opinion.

Of course there are various ways to scumhunt. However there are also many inadequate ways to scumhunt, and having an abysmally low activity level is one of them.

As for Varsoon, read the post I linked above and get back to me. I might have bought the whole "active lurking" thing a few days ago, but his recent behavior overwhelmingly points to busy townie rather than malicious scum.

[hapahauli]

Regarding acfan, I don't understand why anyone who is town would not use their vote

That would most likely be a personal thing then.
Seeing as you also did the same thing regarding Pie's early suspicion of you, but whether votes are in use is never a scumtell for anyone.

@ Cheery Pie

Y u no be active, I miss you =(

In all seriousness, I have no idea where you stand read-wise since your pursuit of me in the early game. Can you give me an idea of your scumreads at the moment?

You definitely are serious about activity levels.

My current scumreads are NicCage, Varsoon and Toomai.

Everyone else is still null or has become a town read.

What do you think of my analysis on Varsoon here:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4943881

Also, can you specify who's town and who's null in your mind?

[hapahauli]

UNVOTE: Toomai

I'm not as convinced as I was of his guilt. I looked over some of his town games, and his activity levels/posting style isn't THAT much different from here. His posting certainly makes it difficult to read his alignment, but it's not a scumtell afaik.

The three players I have clear scumreads on are

Nic Cage

,

GBGC

, and

Scott

. I'll explain a bit more in detail later, but here's the rundown:

Nic Cage

- Useless lurker showing more interest in "smoking weed" than playing the game.

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2TO5atI4rU

GBGC

- Definition of an active lurker.

Bad Cop

is plenty content to call people scum and "poke" them, but literally has 0 actual scumhunting analysis in his filter (Seriously, look at it). Most of

Good Cop

's posting/analysis has been based on him not catching up with the game. Since he's caught up, this is his only analysis:

- I agree with BC's Varsoon vote. All his posts are IIoA.
- Scott is slight town due to him having similar thoughts to me.
- Cage is slight scum at best, I don't see good enough reasons to lynch him now. There are more scummy players.

I've read the whole game now.

- GC

Hapa's case on Toomai was okay, not that good though.

Scott Brosius

- While his inactivity is somewhat standard for his normal town-play, I'm just not at all satisfied with his content. For example, there are posts where he heavily insinuates suspicion on players and doesn't do anything to follow up on them. Case in point:

I would disagree with me giving half a dick about this game. I simply have a little experience in regards to this type of mafia. The reason I am voting Nic is because he has just been wrenching at my gut for quite a while now and he is giving me no reason not to. Something doesn't register right with him. Finals or not if true is understandable, but that still doesn't keep me from being suspicious of him. I also don't trust Scott so much because in my opinion a lot what he says seems scummy.

And I'm the only one to draw some attention to you for sheeping and providing nothing, and conveniently I'm a new scum read! Very interesting.

"You're scum... INTERESTING... does anyone want to bite?"

He has a lot of these short insinuations of suspicion of various players.

On Varsoon...

Oh good a list of baseless reads. Exactly what I meant.

On Daemon...

Out of everything that has happened since your previous post to this one, THIS is the one point you make?

On Dyslexicon...

Don't like this at all. The blatant sheeping with no addition, then the following post is just empty talk about everyone agreeing? Looks like filler. Still like my Varsoon vote, but Dys is my second choice.

On Myself...

My concern is that you unvoted immediately after a single post saying I GUESS WE CAN EXPECT MORE CONTENT! Yet after I post its HEY GONNA POST MORE?! My issue is with you treating people differently for similar circumstances. So to fawn to your demands, the answer is yes.

On ac1983fan...

I don't understand the unvote and lack of revote if that is all that sticks out. This is not town behavior.

And what's more about all of this.. he just seems really... angry. He has a very critical tone, and seems like he's going after players because he's critical of their playstyle rather than because he thinks they're actually scummy. I'm unsure how much of this observation is me being potentially confirmation biased, so I'll look at it again and attempt to articulate it better.

[hapahauli]

I would not be surprised if rainbowjake ended up flipping scum

-bc

Rationale? This is getting pretty old.

For that matter, what

is

your rationale for voting Varsoon at this point?

^^I don't like that post.

Both GoodCop and I could see Varsoon as scum, and neither of us have townreads on Vars, while Hapa is now a townread of GC's.

I also don't like how he responded to my poking around as though I'm being lame instead of just prodding for reactions. I don't remember you sticking out your ass for us?

-BadCop

You're basically voting him because you could "see him as scum" and because you don't have a town-read on him.

[hapahauli]

@Hapa

You're basically voting him because you could "see him as scum" and because you don't have a town-read on him.

Wrong. We're voting him because all of his posts are IIoA. If he's town, he'd probably the worst player i've seen in my life. He has no interest in finding scum. He's interested in buddying up to you so he can carry on doing nothing.

IIoA?

But speaking of doing nothing, that's exactly what you two on your hydra adventure has produced so far. Again, outside of your analysis posted before you caught up with the game, you've made 1 post that I could consider analysis. And barely at that.

[hapahauli]

I mean honestly GC, have you looked at your partner's posting at all? Whatever IIoA means, it must apply to BC as well.

[hapahauli]

@Hapa

You're basically voting him because you could "see him as scum" and because you don't have a town-read on him.

Wrong.

We're voting him because all of his posts are IIoA.

If he's town, he'd probably the worst player i've seen in my life. He has no interest in finding scum. He's interested in buddying up to you so he can carry on doing nothing

...and excuse the triple post, but I have one more contention here.

The bolded isn't entirely accurate. BC first voted Varsoon because of the reasons I mentioned ("didn't have a town-read on him"), and then you retroactively added the "IIoA" justification. You can say whatever you want to justify the vote now, but it was initially made on sketchy pretenses. Well...I suppose this is more of a question for BC.

[hapahauli]

Quick reply:

I mean honestly GC, have you looked at your partner's posting at all? Whatever IIoA means, it must apply to BC as well.

I don't need to look at BC posts tbh, I know he's town. IIoA means information instead of analysis.

Also, can you look at us two as a whole, we're both the same alignment. Even if he's posting fluff (I haven't looked), i'm not, which should redeem our slot. Providing analysis and reasons is hard for scum because they have to fake it. Varsoon has given no analysis because he can't.

I see no reason to look at your slot as a whole. You have two very separate mentalities and I have to analyze both.

As far as your slot being "redeemed" through your analysis, once again, you've posted very little of value yourself. If you were posting tons of analysis (or even adequate amounts of anlaysis), we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[hapahauli]

Also Toomai,

Vote: Scott

Toomai, those are the reasons why you would vote anyone.

Stuff like this doesn't cut it. While I do think you're town, this is not give you a free-pass to play sub-optimally.

[hapahauli]

I think Scott is scum.
You should, too.
I don't need to articulate why he's scum, because I think it is so and I'm town.

I do think Scott is scum. I'm not sure if he's more scummy than GBGC or NC though.

Why should I have to play Town convincingly when I am town?

Because we're approaching a time where we need to lobby for votes, and I'd rather not have people voting you. You gotta appease the crowd some times ya know.

[hapahauli]

Not sure about GBGC. He's active enough today where I think I'd give him a pass. NC is definitely a possibility though. He basically is not posting since he likes weed too much or something.

[hapahauli]

That wasn't the right response acfan.

[hapahauli]

It sounds more that you want to lynch him out of spite for his play rather than because you think he's scum. That's not good.

The fact that Toomai is willing to do blatantly unpopular things without giving a shit about the reaction should pretty clearly tell you that he's town.

And honestly, I'd like to think I've posted enough on Scott to where the rationale for voting him should be obvious.

[hapahauli]

@ ac1983fan

The thing is Varsoon, is I'm not voting you because you look scummy. I'm voting you because you are being anti-town

(and a bit of an ass about it), and on D1, anti-town play is just as good as scummy vibes, especially for a player like me who is shit at this game in general.

You are policy lynching. What is in bold is known as a policy-lynch.

[hapahauli]

Anyone who's voting Varsoon at this point is an idiot or scum.

It's clear that he doesn't care about his image, and is basically playing suicidally. You can say what you want about him playing "anti-town" (though he's actually provided quite a bit of analysis in the last few pages), but his play makes no sense from a mafia perspective. He's showing no survival instinct, and that's mega townie.

We should be lynching

Nic Cage

or

Scott

today unless someone goes about and acts even scummier.

[hapahauli]

As far as Jake goes, I have my doubts about him, however I'd need to know more about Nic Cage's alignment before I could commit to lynching him.

I'm very skeptical about how "clean" his game is. It's not a very natural thought process to lock on someone from Day 1 (Nic Cage) in the manner that he did. It doesn't seem very emotional, and the lack of interaction he's had with the thread outside of offering "Nic is scum" comments strikes me as scummy.

However

, I can't blame him for it unless Nic flips town OR starts acting townie.

[hapahauli]

@Hapa

As far as Jake goes, I have my doubts about him, however I'd need to know more about Nic Cage's alignment before I could commit to lynching him.

JFR is town, even if Cage flips town. Town players can be wrong, no?

I think you missed my point. It's not so much who he's going after (after all, a bunch of people are suspicious of NC). It's the manner in how he's gone after him, particularly his detachment from virtually every other subject of conversation in the game.

Should he be lynched today? Absolutely not. But those are my thoughts.

[hapahauli]

Sounds reasonable J.

Though given the lack of activity in the thread, I'd rather see your "old" style. I'd take any form of posting at this point.

[hapahauli]

Sounds reasonable J.

Though given the lack of activity in the thread, I'd rather see your "old" style. I'd take any form of posting at this point.

Why's Scott scum?

Read the thread.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4944216
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4944218
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4949929

The fact that you're too lazy to read the last 3 pages does not help your cause.

[hapahauli]

@ BC

I have no obligation to the lazy. I thought I laid it out really clearly why I'm suspicious of Sott in all those posts (especially the 3rd). I'd be happy to explain things to you if you don't understand something in there, but if you're going to come in and say "why scott is scum" showing no hints of reading or considering what I've posted, then you're not going to get a warm reception from me.

[hapahauli]

bear with me, I just saw something interesting.

The floor is yours.

@Hapa

- I was expecting a summary...
I agree with the last paragraph of the first link and that post #241 is scummy. Everything else is pretty meh tbh.
Anyway, it's better than my (mostly) gut scum read on Cage. I'll support the Scott waggon for now.

VOTE: Scott
Btw, what is your definition of an active lurker? I'm quite sure Varsoon is a perfect example. He's just talking bs all the time yet you say he's not one?

My definition of an active lurker is what your other half is pulling right now.

But in all seriousness, there's no such thing as an absolute heuristic when scumhunting. So you can label Varsoon an active lurker if you want, but I believe he's town due to his general attitude and complete lack of guilt/fear when posting. I believe that's a strong tell that supercedes any accusations of active lurking.

[hapahauli]

Go to the last VC and what is happening. Varsoon is getting ran up against NC. What is the reaction from Varsoon? Attack a player who is voting NC. That accomplishes absolutely nothing from a scum perspective and instead is more of throwing rocks at a hornet nest. Not only is he making a vote that keeps him closer to a lynch as the leading wagon while easily being able to vote NC, but it also stands the chance of angering a player off the wagon who is defending him.

That doesn't explain why he was town beforehand that point.

and I still disagree, simply because that vote and reasons given looks to me like weak distancing and thus that he's moved somewhere else won't change my mind.

Which therefore means I'm now reading you slightly scummy, and the fact you've explained some differences doesn't mean much to me. (probably because my own hydra isn't working seamlessly either, by which I'm waiting for Pie to see if it also looks that way to him or if

I'm just way too annoyed about the constant "I'm town" comments coming from Varsoon that I've started tunneling.

Cheery, you need to unvote Varsoon and start talking about someone who actually has a chance of getting lynched.

Thoughts on NC and Scott would be helpful.

[hapahauli]

@Hapa

I think the reason people asked again for your scott case was possibly because of this at the end of it.

And what's more about all of this.. he just seems really... angry. He has a very critical tone, and seems like he's going after players because he's critical of their playstyle rather than because he thinks they're actually scummy. I'm unsure how much of this observation is me being potentially confirmation biased, so I'll look at it again and attempt to articulate it better.

I'm not entirely convinced about him by your case on him, in detail you're attacking him for doing playstyle stuff, when basically that's what I'm seeing you're going after on him.

I don't think it's all playstyle stuff. He goes around with these one-liner prods of suspicion and never follows up on them. He's done it to like 5 players. Furthermore, there's that post he directed to Daemon in which he tries to take credit for shit he clearly didn't do. Couple it with general lurkiness, and I think we have a scum-candidate.

And if you still think that's "playstyle..." is that not exactly what you're doing with Toomai? I've heard plenty about how you're pissed off that he's saying "I'm Town," and virtually no other substance.

[hapahauli]

It's times like this I wish I could double lynch. Maybe even triple lynch a bunch of lurkers. Sigh.

[hapahauli]

@ Scott

I don't buy this about Varsoon though. The behavior was immediately reinforced as town by hap, the most vocal player in the thread who essentially said he was obviously town...so why not continue it?

Regarding Varsoon, why don't you "buy it"? Unjustified statements like that will get you nowhere.

What exactly is the NC case? Going through his ISO, it really just looks like crappy town newb play more than anything else.

NC isn't a newb.

[hapahauli]

@ Scott

I don't buy this about Varsoon though. The behavior was immediately reinforced as town by hap, the most vocal player in the thread who essentially said he was obviously town...so why not continue it?

Regarding Varsoon, why don't you "buy it"? Unjustified statements like that will get you nowhere.

What exactly is the NC case? Going through his ISO, it really just looks like crappy town newb play more than anything else.

NC isn't a newb.

The justification comes after that statement. When he acts like that and you being the most vocal player in thread immediately reinforce that behavior as being apparently obvtown, why not continue that behavior?

Ok that's justification for him being not town. What's the justification for him being scum? He seems like a really active, beligerant dude, and that's pretty townie.

Furthermore, I don't understand why my defense of him would be enough backing for him to show such "fearless" behavior when people were voting him left and right despite my defense. The guy had 5 votes on him and continued to be antagonistic. That's pretty darn townie.

Regarding NC, I'm going off of join date and quality of posts. Seems pretty inexperienced to me.

He's been "hungover" for like 5 days and not posting. I don't consider that inexperienced. That's called not giving a shit about the game, and therefore scummy.

[hapahauli]

Um, are you not the guy who is "conservative" with his vote?

That... that is a fantastic observation.

This one needs some explaining from acfan.

[hapahauli]

Actually ya know what, I like that a lot. I think ac1983 fan is scum.

VOTE: ac1983fan

I also have doubts about scum right now. Scott has a golden opportunity to hammer NC right now, and the fact that he's not taking it makes me question my initial read. I don't think both NC and Scott are a scumteam either... this game has been too passive overall for two scum to be on the block right now.

I had dismissed ac1983fan initially because I thought his whole voting interaction with Varsoon looked a lot like an emotional townie. However as Dyslexicon points out, it's very inconsistent with the mentality he presented earlier in the game.

Shh anyone who has played with me before (and there are indeed a few in this game) knows that I am a conservative voter and frequently have no vote out when I do not think it is appropriate so this is not a scumtell for me it is just playstyle

Interesting right? This mentality makes no sense with the "OMG I HAVE ZERO TOLERANCE FOR U" mentality that he presented with his vote on Varsoon:

Holy shit.
VOTE: Varsoon
I'm sorry I have 0 patience for this.

Furthermore, his rationale for voting Varsoon is unbelievably sketchy.

Now it is totally within Varsoon's right to play this game in that way

, but I find the fact that he refuses to actually substantiate his claims to be just wrong. Obviously my vote is subject to change pending future postings but as of the moment I am 100% comfortable with lynching Varsoon

RE the bolded... that rationale makes very little sense if ac1983fan is voting Varsoon because he has a scumread on him. "You have the right to play the way you're doing as scum, but I'm going to lynch you for it" makes no coherent sense. In fact, it seems like he's treating Varsoon as if he

knows

he's town.

i.e. "You have the right to play the way you are as town, but it's horrendously anti-town and I will lynch you for it."

The thing is

Varsoon, is I'm not voting you because you look scummy.

I'm voting you because you are being anti-town (and a bit of an ass about it), and on D1, anti-town play is just as good as scummy vibes,

especially for a player like me who is shit at this game in general.

And again, he's not voting Varsoon because he thinks he's scum. Then afterwards, immediately discredits his own opinion by calling himself "shit."

He "explained" this in later posts that he's wants to kill people for anti-town play in general, but I don't buy it at all.

Rainbowdash, I'll get to your post about him voting based on "anti-town" behavior in his previous games. There are huge differences, and I believe his behavior here is VERY noticeably different from his previous town games in which he's done this kind of stuff.

[hapahauli]

Also, if ANYONE hammers NicCage before I get complete responses from ac1983fan, it should be considered a scum-claim and an auto-lynch tomorrow.

[hapahauli]

ac1983fan

needs to HANG IMMEDIATELY

I just did a quick search of ac1983 for the phrase "anti-town" and I come across 2 open games where he was town in both and he voted players for being anti-town, one of those players (belisarus) was actually scum.

ac using anti-town is par for him and isn't a policy lynch, so can we please end this stupid conversation about policy lynching?

...

I admire the effort, but you didn't dig nearly carefully enough into his past games. There's a

huge

difference in mentality between ac1983 fan's anti-town votes in his previous town games and in this one.

Town ac1983fan DOES NOT lynch people solely for being anti-town. There is no doubt that he is very conscious about anti-town behavior, but he consistently votes people for being anti-town AND scum. NOT JUST being anti-town.

----------------------------
In Mini 742, consider these selections of quotes:

I didn't even think of AlaJ, because he just crossed my mind... I do think he is scum though. Grimmy I'm more neutral on, but his behavior was antitown.

NOT voting the anti-town guy, and instead voting someone he thinks he's scum.

I find it hilarious that Braeden's last post was "I'm not being replaced".
I really don't like the way CTD is acting in regards to the fonz; Fonz said Grimmy was more anti-town than scummy. Anti-town != scummy.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Criticizes someone for equating anti-town behavior with scummy behavior!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

vote: alabaska

Alabaska behavior is both scummy and anti-town.

...

vote: grimmy

...
I still find jebus scummy, but if grimmy's play so far isn't anti-town and/or scummy, I don't know what is.

Voting someone for being anti-town AND scummy.
----------------------------

Thing is,

the mentality I show above is NOT isolated to only one of his town-games.

It is

consistent

throughout

every

one of his town games.
Mini 480:

We could just lynch him now but I think that's technically anti-town and what not. But I think his play is generally anti-town. (but well my play is generally anti-town BUT I TRY DAMMIT I TRY SO HARD *sobs in corner*)

Showing

hesitancy

for lynching a player solely based on being anti-town!

Why are you getting so mad about this?
I am skimming them, but my point is merely that they are not as helpful as they might seem; it's more anti-town then it is scummy but still.

Once again FAILING to equate being anti-town with a vote justification
Lastly, he ends up voting a player (Belisarius) in this game NOT because he's "anti-town" but for a host of very well justified reasons, enforcing the point that

town ac1983fan is not a player that rashly lynches solely on the basis of someone behaving anti-town!

-------------------------------
The

only

meta point I can find in ac1983fan's defense is from Open 411:

unvote
VOTE: Nobody Special

NS has been totally useless all game and frankly I don't care if it's your meta to lurk and not post much, but beyond that, you've hung onto a RV against Ald the entire game, then admit to tunneling and say that because he had to "go all townie" you need to scumhunt... But yet you still keep your vote on him? How hypocritical.
It seems like people are backing off the Ald wagon, and while I'd rather not force another claim, frankly NS has done nothing for the town and his last post really struck a nerve with me.
Anyone else want to join me?

I feel like his play here has been scummier than his typical play.
Also anti-town play should make a player worthy of being lynched, regardless of whether or not that's his or her playstyle.

In the second quote, he states that anti-town behavior can "make a player worthy of being lynched."

HOWEVER, the context of this quote is incredibly different. He's voting a player for which he has

independent rationale to think that he's actually scummy rather than just anti-town

.

This should ALSO demonstrate the point that ac1983fan is not a player that votes people solely (and rashly) on the basis of being anti-town. He votes them for being

SCUMMY

.

[hapahauli]

I love you Dyslexicon. Thank you for making me look at this guy again.

ac1983fan

is scum. No doubt about it.

There are

zero

redeeming features in his filter. The only analysis he did (and meager) at that was against Dyslexicon, for which he

completely

dropped to vote Varsoon for being anti-town.

That's a fucking scumclaim. It's so insanely far-off from ANY of his town-mentalities.

Absolutely everything makes sense. Him riding a 3rd-party wagon (Varsoon) while soft-pushing the Nic lynch. Hell he defended Nic in the early-game for these reasons:

I'm not sure why NicCage has rounded up so many votes so quickly. it seems like people have latched onto a small handful of things he's said and jumped to seemingly ridiculous conclusions. I don't see how we have enough information about him to justify the number of votes he has. I think NC is more likely town whose wagon is being pushed by scum because it could feasibly give an easy d1 lynch for them.

Skepticism by the easiness of the wagon against NC.

Then all of a sudden when NC

really

starts to be a lynch-risk...

I'm still wary of Dyslexicon, and NicCage's latest post is openly admitted anti-town play, so I guess I can see why there is a wagon on him again.

Additionally, the two biggest wagons at the moment are against Varsoon and NicCage, both of whom I've seen heavy anti-town behavior from.

"Hey guys! I'm going to hang out over here and vote for a townie, but you guys are more than welcome to lynch another one!"

He completely forgets about his skepticism towards the NC wagon and starts off with his anti-town justifications again. Notice how he's NOT justifying lynching NC because he thinks NC is scum. He is "acquiescing" to the wagon because he wants to lynch townies for being anti-town.

ac1983fan

needs to HANG.

HANG HANG HANG HANG.

[hapahauli]

There is no need for a response. He is scum and needs to die.

Period.

[hapahauli]

And pardon the spam/excitement, but I've been so goddamn frustrated with the activity of this game, and until now I haven't been able to do anything beyond be suspicious of players for being lurky/useless.

But now I have someone splayed on the table for horrifically scummy behavior. Not only is he useless, but he has a clear, attributable scum-mentality in his game, that's

completely inconsistent with his town-games

.

ac1983fan is voting for Varsoon for being anti-town, and NOT because ac1983fan thinks Varsoon is scum. His quotes clearly show this, and it's clear that his self-proclaimed cautious town persona has NEVER done something remotely similar to this in the past, and often does the EXACT OPPOSITE.

[hapahauli]

GC. Read my last few posts on

ac1983fan

. Tell me what you think.

Read it, and you should be more than convinced that

ac1983fan is scum

.

[hapahauli]

Cheery Pie,

Would you grace us with your thoughts on ac1983fan? You seemed to have dodged the subject.

Again, you can feel free to be suspicious of Toomai all you want, but it rings hollow if you refuse to acknowledge the context behind his vote.

[hapahauli]

And for those of you wanting to vote NC, I would vote ac1983fan on the sole basis that his play heavily insinuates that NC is town.

See the last half of #374 for details:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4956013

[hapahauli]

I don't mind letting ac respond, however we are lynching him unless he shits townie rainbows into the thread.

@ NC

- You can start being a better player right now. Read-dump for me. What's all your views on every player? I do think you're town, but that's only due to acfan association right now, and I'd rather have independent rationale for it.

[hapahauli]

@ ac1983fan

First of all, my case isn't a meta case. The meta was there to dispose of Jake's counter-argument.

You are scum because you are voting Varsoon and suspicious of NC for reasons OTHER than finding them scummy. On top of this, all of your suspicions (and valid ones at that) against Dislexicon went *poof* the second you laid your eyes on Varsoon's "I'm town" quotes. You abandoned scumhunting in order to kill someone for being "anti-town" and that's a scum-claim.

As for your counter meta point...

Hapa hauli, did you ever care to look at any of the dates on my postings?
All of the examples you cite, barring Open 411, were from games that I played in Over four years ago. Or more. I was 16 or younger at any given moment while playing those games. I was also an idiot but that is not really relevant. My playstyle has changed significantly since those games. Moreover, I did not play any Mafia games on this site for several years (from April 2010 to May 2012). Additionally, allow me to point to an example in my most recent finished game:
In post 176, ac1983fan wrote:
vote:belisarius
As mentioned before he's active lurking worse than NS and I don't like the fact that several of his posts of contribution have been rather anti-town.

I voted Belisarius because I thought he was anti-town. I also later voted NS in that game out of frustration similar to as I did in Open 411, because he's that kind of player. I vote players for being anti-town when I don't see any other good options. It's not an isolated instance. I admire your dedication but please, all of your evidence about how I should behave is taken from a time when I played quite differently than I do now (barring the Open 411 example which I think actually does accurately reflect my present playstyle).

Firstly, yes those games are old, however they are still valid. They display a

mentality

that is far different from the one you are exhibiting here. Furthermore, I just used that game 'cause it was the first I happened to look at, and going through every single one of your town games and pointing out every single repeating pattern of this mentality is redundant and serves no purpose. I can surely pull up a newer game, but given that people will be lynching you, I see no point in doing so.

Secondly, that "recent game" quote vote on Bellasarius is of extremely different context in this game. Your vote against him in that game was an

early game pressure vote

. Secondly, there are

posts upon posts

of questioning and justifications beyond that vote that you post for voting him. I'll pull up two to illustrate the point:

So now we have confirmed town mason Apozzle.
I think Belisarius and Edosourist are both scum. Notice how Edo is always the third or fourth vote on a popular wagon, and never really moves or targets anyone else. Beli i find supiscious for the same reasons I did yesterday.
VOTE: Belisarius

Preparing reads on everyone atm but given the claims I will

unvote

for the moment and reVOTE: Belisarius since he was scummy earlier on in the day and has vote hopped from wagon to wagon w/o really ccontributing anything new (I know pot kettle)

--------------------------------------------------------

So this is a

big difference

from this game. Where instead of voting someone for being anti town and then continuing justifications to find him scum, you

drop all your scumhunting on Dyslexicon in order to vote Varsoon

.

This is a scumclaim.

You will get lynched today.

[hapahauli]

we are not lynching a claimed PR, even in the off chance he is lying. I have seen this mistake way too many times. I will admit that in the QT I posted that I agree with the case, but the speed of this wagon is way too fast. especially with a PR claim.

fake or not, we will hope somebody out there can verify it tonight and if he is legit, than he is mafia's issue to deal with.

if anyone wants proof of my stance about lynching claimed PRs, I will be happy to link a game.

today we are lynching Nic or maybe Scott. I'd even be ok with a Toomai lynch.

that is all. Anyone hammers AC and he happens to flip town, you may as well just sign your death certificate. We are not lynching AC today.

-J

What.

Explain.

[hapahauli]

So when do we lynch him? What is your plan for killing him in the event that he's lying?

[hapahauli]

@ ac1983fan

Secondly, that "recent game" quote vote on Bellasarius is of extremely different context in this game. Your vote against him in that game was an

early game pressure vote

.

Wrong. Let me be clear:

I do not make pressure votes. I vote for people I want lynched

. Period. Regardless of if I am scum or town.
Moreover, I did not find Beli scummy until later on in that game; initially it was merely anti-town play that pinged him on my radar. Of course I vote for people who I believe are scum, but voting for people who I believe are scum and voting for anti-town players is not mutually exclusive.

(Oh, and I made an error when responding to your first post. You said your quotes from Open 480 were from Mini 480, and I just assumed they were from one of the games I played back in 07/08. But it was actually from a different game. My bad)

It was an early-game pressure vote. The contexts were so absurdly different (voting a guy early in the day vs. voting Varsoon when his wagon was in full swing). Also, you still haven't justified why Varsoon is scum beyond him being anti-town.

More importantly, you're picking gripes with mini technicalities in my case rather than addressing the overarching theme. You were super suspicious of Dislexicon, asked a ton of questions to him, then all of a sudden you get so "frustrated" with Toomai that you vote him solely on the basis of being anti-town.

You DO NOT do that as town.

You are a

patient

player that carefully considers votes. Your actions are scummy already as it is, and to see you do something like this as town to me is inconceivable given your game history.

[hapahauli]

Well I guess I'll go back to where I was then.

Vote: NicCage

That said, 1-Shot Doctor seems like a really weird claim to me. It's weak and unusual enough that it doesn't look like something that would be faked, but in the same way it's far easier to explain why he's not being killed (since if the claim is true the Mafia probably would like to keep him around for a while to keep suspicion high, as opposed to a full Doctor claim which would make everyone expect instant death).

DAFUQ.

Do people on this site seriously think that a fucking 1-shot doctor claim means that you can't lynch someone?

It's the most convenient claim ever.

Fuck it's completely unverifiable, so what's the point in not lynching the guy today?

[hapahauli]

He claimed 1-shot doctor and that gives him a free pass for all his behavior thus far?

That's bullcrap.

If he claims something like Cop, then yes I understand reservations. But if he makes an unverifiable and absurdly convenient claim, then we lynch the bejeezus out of him. We know scum are never going to shoot him. We know that there's no way for him to verify his claim. And we know he's the scummiest player in the thread.

Therefore he hangs.

[hapahauli]

So this is a

big difference

from this game. Where instead of voting someone for being anti town and then continuing justifications to find him scum, you

drop all your scumhunting on Dyslexicon in order to vote Varsoon

.

I think he dropped his last piece of scumhunting since it was obviously wrong actually.

And

WHERE

did ac1983fan conclude that? He's been suspicious of the guy all game, and he's

STILL

suspicious of him.

But anyway that wagon came too fast and Hapa's too overeager that I can't see it as actually being on scum.

How is this justification for not killing scum?

Though did you see if he had this mentality of going for anti-town lynches in scum games, I only recall you linking town.[/Quote]

I only looked through his town-games. He had a scum-game where he mentioned something about voting anti-town, but I didn't look at it very carefully since he replaced out on Day 1. Inconclusive game.

It's possible he has other scum-games (I only searched him for games where he said "anti-town").

[hapahauli]

It was an early-game pressure vote.

No, it was not. I do not make pressure votes. Ever. Period.

The context of your play suggests otherwise. You can claim whatever you want, but that game does not back it up.

More importantly, you're picking gripes with mini technicalities in my case rather than addressing the overarching theme. You were super suspicious of Dislexicon, asked a ton of questions to him, then all of a sudden you get so "frustrated" with Toomai that you vote him solely on the basis of being anti-town.

Varsoon. I voted Varsoon. And I asked Dyslexicon like two questions, and the second time I

misread his post

. I was not

super suspicious of him.

[/quote]

Ok that's fair. However the multitude of other points I have still stand.

Mr. "Super-patient townie" went off the wall and voted a guy for being anti-town rather than scummy. You have 3-4 scum-reads (from your read dump), and you're voting someone for "overbearing anti-town behavior."

[hapahauli]

So when do we lynch him? What is your plan for killing him in the event that he's lying?

we lynch one of Nic/SB/Toomai, my preference being Nic

if he is lying, he gets lynched tomorrow. Hopefully we have a cop or something who can investigate him. If he is town, scum will have to think about killing him or hoping town lynches him tomorrow. It makes it much harder for scum if he is telling the truth and we can somehow clear him.

we can talk about all of this tomorrow though.

Why the fudge do you want a cop to check this guy, then

claim

in order to lynch someone who should die today?

Hell have the cop check Nic/SB/Toomai. That's 1000% better use of a check than a guy who should just die.

[hapahauli]

Hell we might not even have a cop.

And scum will

NEVER

kill a hypothetically "town-ac1983fan." That would take top honors for worst NK ever.

[hapahauli]

ultimately your case on Ac is a meta case, albeit it a very good one, it's still a meta case. meta case alone isn't a reason to vote him. his cop claim gives him the benefit of the doubt that OMG you could just be wrong.

IT IS NOT A META CASE.

The entire purpose of the meta case was to debunk your "counter-argument" about AC's "anti-town" voting rationale.

The crux of my case is that he's voting Varsoon for all of the wrong reasons.

He claims to be a patient townie...
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4944958

...then flips out at Varsoon's anti-town behavior and spazz votes him in the most non-patient way possible:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4951003

But the

bottom line

is that he is voting for Varsoon

NOT

because he's mafia but because he's anti-town. This is mafia motive 101. This is insta-lynchable alone, and is further backed by his meta.

And fuck dude, have you read this guy's filter? He's done NO SCUMHUNTING. And the second he gets called out, he magically decides to put effort into the game, list off a bunch of reads, and make the worlds most convenient blue-claim.

The meta is just the CHERRY on top of scummy behavior.

And you don't want to lynch him today.

$#*%&#$(*%&@#(*$^@#*&^%$@&*#%^*@&^$(!*@&$(@*#&^%*@#^%*&@#$^%

you don't think it's the least bit off that it takes over a week to get Nic to L-1 but AC gets to L-1 in less than 24 hours?

Not at all. I am by far the most active presence in this thread. I could probably pick any player (town or scum) and have him moved to L-1 at my whim by a body of sheeping townies. I know I sound like a bit of an asshole saying this, but it's 100% truth.

that is at the very least reasonable doubt that AC is legit. I'd actually be ok lynching any of the last 2/3 people who voted Ac, Toomai would be a good lynch but so would Nic

Have you considered that you might be wrong about those players?

Are you not the least-bit disturbed that AC fan refuses to budge from Varsoon (who has virtually no change of getting lynched at htis point) and has been soft-pushing the NC lynch?

[hapahauli]

but feel free to do what you want, but if AC gets lynched and flips town. I want your head on a platter, I don't give a shit what kind of town read dashie has on you.

Oh hohoho, and if he flips scum, how should I deal with you?

You think he's scum, agree with my case, then refuse to vote him because he claims 1-shot doctor.

Instead, you want a cop to

claim

tomorrow to either save/kill him.

What is wrong with you? Seriously.

[hapahauli]

Fuck, I still have no concept of how you think not lynching a guy because of the world's most convenient roleclaim.

I emphasize:

1) His claim is completely unverifiable without a cop check
2) You basically have to sacrifice the cop (to scum NK's or a possible scum RB) to verify him

Stop citing mindless policy without thinking of the specifics. It's goddamn infuriating.

[hapahauli]

Vote ac1983fan, and if he somehow flips town, you're more than welcome to hold me accountible for it.

In the mean-time, I'm going to be lynching people who I'm convinced are scum by any means necessary.

I will not compromise on ac1983fan unless he decides to start acting super-townie. Making the worlds most convenient blue-claim to save yourself isn't a start.

[hapahauli]

I mean fuck. Have you actually

read

ac1983fan's filter irrespective of the Varsoon vote? The guy has done no scumhunting.

He parks his vote on Daemon because "it's the right place at the moment", asks two questions to Dyslexicon which he immediately dismisses, and has done jack-shit else.

Then makes a poorly justified list of scum-reads, of which he votes none of them and choses to vote a guy for being "anti-town" instead.

Lynch him grawwwwww.

[hapahauli]

1) His attack on Toom basically comes AFTER the wagon had started, but then he goes back and basically bases his page 10 vote on page 1/2 posts. If he actually saw those as scummy he would have said something about it when that was occurring instead of later
2) He is really keeping options open. Notice that Varsoon gets wagoned as a counter, and he immediately thinks that Varsoon is a decent lynch. This is NC getting ready to jump there when needed. Varsoon on the other hoof has the town reaction.

All of this applies to acfan as well.
1) He votes Varsoon when the wagon gains traction. Does it in a highly emotional manner despite being self-proclaimed "patient."
2) He keeps all his options open as well. He hasn't committed to ANYTHING all game until Varsoon, and then is "OK" with the NC wagon despite being skeptical about it in the early game.

NC is a lurker lynch. Under many circumstances, I would be OK with that lynch on Day 1. However right now we have ac1983fan, who's not only a lurker but has extreme contradictions in his play.

Futhermore, his play heavily implies that NC is town.

That is why you lynch acfan today.

[hapahauli]

A claim like that where you cant actually prove it in any way is not something that you automatically avoid lynching. Its simply a mild reason not to lynch him (im hesitant to actually call it a towntell) in the situation. However, part of the claim I like quite a bit from having a (whole lot) more experience here than you do. Ive been a part (player/mod) of at this point probably over 100 games here, almost EVERY time I see a player claim a limited shot role, ESPECIALLY a non-information limited shot role, they are either town or scum with that exact role.

Him claiming one shot is enough for me to put that wagon on pause. You have decent enough reasoning, but as Jake has said the way the wagon formed, especially when you compare it to the NC wagon, doesn't feel right. The only time a wagon just blitzes to L-1 its on scum? Ehhh... probably not. Its more of extra things instead of a good/bad case that make ac a bad lynch. Yes even though you are going to complain about it - he is a bad lynch. A cop probably shouldn't claim tomorrow or investigate him, but he still is a bad lynch because scum are either going to have to make a more suboptimal kill or take some other course of action.

OK this is the first reasoning that I've seen that I can somewhat sympathize with.

However, I still firmly believe it's wrong.

However, part of the claim I like quite a bit from having a (whole lot) more experience here than you do. Ive been a part (player/mod) of at this point probably over 100 games here, almost EVERY time I see a player claim a limited shot role, ESPECIALLY a non-information limited shot role, they are either town or scum with that exact role.

This I don't understand at all. I've played many games myself (albeit on other sites), and I've seen no such correlation. In my experience, these convenient, "neatly-packaged" claims are almost always scum. I find that townie-claims are often much more sloppy, emotional, and crazy. AC fan strolled in and made a nice little post with all of his reads, and then "Oh BTW, I'm the 1-shot doctor." That doesn't sound natural or genuine to me at all.

The only time a wagon just blitzes to L-1 its on scum? Ehhh... probably not. Its more of extra things instead of a good/bad case that make ac a bad lynch.

Howabout NC? Do you think that scum would be under that much suspicion and scrutiny throughout the entire 2-week cycle? In fact it is the "gradual" accumulation of votes on NC that makes me terribly suspicious of it. In an active town, I wouldn't mind it as much, but in an apathetic town full of lurkers and lack of initiative by players, I'm skeptical of any wagon that people just "acquiese" to gradually over 2 weeks.

I also think you underestimate the volatility of votes created by me screaming "Lynch AC" at the top of my lungs, as well my general influence in this game so far.

A cop probably shouldn't claim tomorrow or investigate him, but he still is a bad lynch because scum are either going to have to make a more suboptimal kill or take some other course of action.[/Quote]

What other action would scum take? This makes no sense. Scum are going to go kill an obvious townie irregardless of whether or not we lynch AC.

[hapahauli]

Cheery, what is your read on me? You've been "hinting" skepticism at my motives, and I want to be clear what you think.

And you're still talking around the issue here. There are many non-meta reasons with for which AC fan is scum, and you consistently refuse to address each and every one of them.

[hapahauli]

Cheery, what is your read on me?

Mmmm, don't really feel like filling a self-appraisal request.

You've been "hinting" skepticism at my motives, and I want to be clear what you think.

Have I? Perhaps skeptical of your

actions

.

Ok. What's the difference? If you're suspicious of me, tell it to my face so I don't have to deal with your random "badgering" comments.

And you're still talking around the issue here. There are many non-meta reasons with for which AC fan is scum, and you consistently refuse to address each and every one of them.

I don't know what part of the issue is being talked around. Whether to vote ac1983fan or not to vote him seems to be the issue. I'm in the second camp. I wouldn't say the onus is on me to pick apart your case, that's more for ac1983fan himself to do. However, I believe the strength of your reasons has come through a meta mentality, yet removing that leaves a lot of WIFOM. And there's a claim to take into consideration.

If you are not voting ac1983fan, the onus is on you to explain why. Or do you seriously think Varsoon is a better candidate at this point?

[hapahauli]

UNVOTE:

I'm not lynching a claimed PR today.

- GC

Yes, because claiming 1-shot doctor is totally not a convenient easy-to-claim unverifiable PR at all.

So if we're not lynching him today, when are we lynching him? There's no way to verify him short of having a cop claim (which is ridiculous), so what's the point in not lynching someone you think is scum today?

Blind, thoughtless, policies.

[hapahauli]

...
Does it? How?

You sure want him hanged! I'm with you.

It's somewhat associative. Basically if ac1983fan is scum, his actions towards NC heavily imply that NC is town.

I talked about it here a bit:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4956013

Basically, he was earlier in the game skeptical of the quickness of the NC wagon, and then completely forgets about his rationale and is completely OK with it right now. He's soft-pushing the NC wagon while sitting on Varsoon.

[hapahauli]

@Hapa

UNVOTE:

I'm not lynching a claimed PR today.

- GC

Yes, because claiming 1-shot doctor is totally not a convenient easy-to-claim unverifiable PR at all.

So if we're not lynching him today, when are we lynching him? There's no way to verify him short of having a cop claim (which is ridiculous), so what's the point in not lynching someone you think is scum today?

Blind, thoughtless, policies.

We can lynch him tomorrow if he's still acting scummy. Let him use his ability (if he's telling the truth) tonight. Lynching him today is a scummy decision.

- GC

That's silly.

a) There's a very low chance he's flipping town
b) Even if he is somehow town, it's impossible to verify his ability.
c) Even if he is somehow town, he's a high roleblock risk.

[hapahauli]

You fucking retards, unvote him ffs. His response to your case was alright. Just because he claimed doc doesn't make him scum.

I'd rather lynch Toomai but we don't have time. NC dies today or there will be a NL.

How does his response vindicate him at all? He spent all his time nitpicking fairly unimportant things in my case instead of addressing my main points. Furthermore, that list he posted is the only scumhunting he's done all game (and it's meager at that).

Him claiming doc does not make him scum, but it does not vindicate his scummy behavior.

I am not compromising on ac1983fan.

[hapahauli]

I can't believe this shit. The pros of keeping him alive outweigh the cons.

- Scum-acfan could no-kill to make himself look better, giving us a free lynch.
- Town-acfan could get killed at night and we don't have to worry about him.
- etc

Lynching him now would be a 50:50.

How the balls does that even make sense.

Why in gods green earth would scum ever kill a hypothetical town-ac1983fan?
Why dafuq would scum

ever

no-kill to make themselves look better?

You're inventing insane, completely unrealistic rationale to keep him alive.

[hapahauli]

Since no one is interested in Toomai I'll
VOTE: acfan

I don't see how keeping him around for tomorrow is beneficial.

I didn't see this coming.
What a shit ass reason to vote someone.
---

@Hapa - How can you be so confident that he's scum?

Because he's both useless and displaying a scum mentality.

The only thing I can really say about Nic at this point is that he's being useless. It's a lurker lynch, and while I wouldn't mind that under normal circumstances, lynching scum is a higher priority.

You can lynch him tomorrow! If you doubt that he's scum, even just a little, keeping him alive to use up his claimed 1-shot is worth it.
He isn't going anywhere, you act like he has to die today or never.

You can lynch NC tomorrow! It's not like he's going anywhere.

You act like NC has to die today or never.

[hapahauli]

@Hapa - One's a claimed PR...

He claimed 1-shot doctor.

If he claimed a grade-A power role (cop, doctor, JK, etc), I'd see your point. However he made an incredibly convenient claim that's unverifiable. If we think he's scum, we kill him. End of story.

[Quote[@Hp - We don't have time to build a Toomai waggon.[/quote]

24 hours is plenty of time, but

[hapahauli]

Didn't finish the last bit:

@Hp - We don't have time to build a Toomai waggon.

24 hours is plenty of time, but I'm not as sold as I need to be on Toomai to lynch him. Weak votes aren't a justification to kill someone at the last minute. Worth scrutiny tomorrow for sure though.

[hapahauli]

post_id=4959316 time=1368734362 user_id=10128]

Since no one is interested in Toomai I'll
VOTE: acfan

I don't see how keeping him around for tomorrow is beneficial.

Oh God the smell of opportunism here. Also Toomai too.

Hey man, I said that's what I was going to do earlier.

It would be ideal if you could do more.

[hapahauli]

Ok. What's the difference? If you're suspicious of me, tell it to my face so I don't have to deal with your random "badgering" comments.

The difference in questioning your actions and not your motives is that I'm not casting suspicion on your alignment, rather where you are putting your energy: vis a vis making the cases on 1 post wonders, eagerness for ac1983fan lynch and so on. Right now it'd be very difficult to construe your posting as scummy and that's not what I'm doing. I also don't see how this is "badgering" or random. That seems to imply it's out of place or that you have some sort of suspicions on what I'm doing. Dealing with questions towards your actions comes with the territory, I'd say it's no different from what you've been doing to others. However, if you feel it is, please elaborate why that's the case.

Ok, thanks for making that clearer.

If you are not voting ac1983fan, the onus is on you to explain why. Or do you seriously think Varsoon is a better candidate at this point?

Right, well I thought I gave a rough indication, but a couple of simple points:

• - the wagon developed extremely quickly (at this stage that's not often an indication of town-only involvement)
  - there are people who jumped on the wagon that I either have suspicion of, or feel they joined it weakly and thus leaves me developing suspicion
  - there's been a PR claim, not an ideal one, but my preference with these things in the past is to not lynched claimed PR's if there's reasonable opportunity for them to do something with it
  - we could take the PR claim into consideration for tomorrow, both with possible set-ups and future courses of action eg. should ac1983fan keep his 1 shot for later and bait out a scum kill? or try to protect key targets to help town for tomorrow? etc.
  - the case on ac1983fan isn't definitive (RE: meta) and so there's no reason to be close minded towards alternative explanations for his actions or lynch targets for today
  - there are alternative lynches and time (just) to lynch these people

I've dismissed all these reasonings in previous posts. Namely that my case isn't based on meta, and that the chances of making scum do something "suboptimal" with his ability (if he's somehow town) are extremely low.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Varsoon is a

better

candidate, but he feels like a viable alternative. I'd also consider NicCage for a lynch. The wagon on ac1983fan happened faster than I would've liked and could've reacted to. I was wary of its speed and the PR claim only increases this notion. That's not to say you don't have relevant points, but in the scope of how it played out I've gotten a bad feeling about it all.

You voting Varsoon implies that you think he's the

best

candidate availible. If he's not the best candidate in your mind, who is? Place your vote on that person.

This wagon and the deadline has caught me between a rock and a hard place. I don't think there's really time for elaborate cases to counter ac1983fan's, it's going to have to be

all on

or

all off

instead. So if people aren't going to be moving their votes then I'll hammer if need be.

I don't like this attitude. I feel like you've been talking around things and doing everything in your power not to make a vote-committment. Your plan here is essentially to wait and see, and give the town your "stamp of approval" by hammering someone. This is unacceptable when we have 24 hours left in the day. We need to be discussing reads, not doing hwat you are proposing.

[hapahauli]

I hate this town.

Having just read everything posted today I'm inclined to agree with this 100%

Also idk if ac is scum or town but regardless hap's attitude has to be the shittiest I've ever seen. Last I checked you aren't confirmed town and nobody elected you the leader. Take your barking out of this game.

What do you expect me to do? I have lined up in front of me an

excellent

day 1 lynch that I spent a bunch of time on. Everyone seems to agree with my case and are refusing to vote AC for reasons that have nothing to do with his alignment.

You can call my attitude "shitty" or whatever, but I've been putting more effort into this game than virtually the entire playerbase combined, and to see this "he claimed 1-shot doctor therefore we're not lynching him today" is absolutely infuriating and is sending me off the deep end.

In the mean time, I'll do whatever I can to get my top scumread lynched. If you don't like it, then cross your fingers that I get shot tomorrow night, or be the vocal leader in my stead. Because no one else seems want to, you'll have to deal with me today =)

Playing SMART we should not be lynching AC today.

-J

Furthermore, did you not see what your

own partner

posted to the effect? The one you so idolize?
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4958118

All this "don't lynch the PR" stuff

does not apply here.

It applies to normal doctor/cop claims, but not this one. In the case of a 1-shot claim, we lynch the guy if we think he's scum. End of story.

[hapahauli]

I hate this town. Don't expect me to post after this.

Pffft. You're rather sensitive for a "Bad Cop."

[hapahauli]

Furthermore, did you not see what your own partner posted to the effect? The one you so idolize?

she also said that we should not be lynching him.

The point I'm trying to make is that your argument about "don't lynch PR's Day 1" doesn't make sense in this case.

Your partner acknowledges this full well, yet you do not.

Secondly, I replied to your other-half's rationale already:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4958123
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4958148

Your parter doesn't want to lynch ac1983fan because he has doubts about AC's allignment. However all his reasons don't hold much water in my eyes.

Furthermore, you don't want to lynch AC solely because of the "PR Day 1" policy, which clearly isn't valid.

so yeah for the most part we are on the same page, so kindly move your vote to nic

thanks

Kindly move your vote to AC. Thanks.

[hapahauli]

I hate this town. Don't expect me to post after this.

Pffft. You're rather sensitive for a "Bad Cop."

bbmolla isn't a good bad cop. not sure why he's trying to act like he is one

*shrug*

But honestly, I don't understand why he hates this town all of a sudden.

The last 48 hours have been

fantastic

. It has been a wonderful shitfest, and we've gotten more information of use and of value than the previous 10 days combined. Whoever ends up flipping today (and however they flip), I'm going to have a lot to work with if I end up surviving the night.

Embrace it. Cherish it. These arguments are maddening, but they're fantastic for town.

[hapahauli]

Your reasons for not voting him are still nonsensical, regardless about how much you or BadCop hate it.

[hapahauli]

It sounds like you'd be perfectly alright with lynching AC if he claimed VT, correct?

[hapahauli]

It sounds like you'd be perfectly alright with lynching AC if he claimed VT, correct?

Correct

So that implies that the

only

reason that you are objecting to the AC lynch is because of his claim.

Can you talk to me about this "policy" of yours a bit more? The way I see it, you don't lynch PR claims on Day 1 for the following reasons:
1) Sometimes it is possible to verify their allignment later on in the game.
2) It can "force" scum into sub-optimal decisions.

The problem is, I can't find any compelling reason for why the policy applies in the case of this current claim (1-shot doctor).
1) It won't be possible to verify his claim later, and outing a cop to do so is not a good long-term play.
2) The "suboptimal" decisions that scum could make here (NK'ing AC for example) are very unrealistic. If scum have a roleblocker, they can nullify his role without killing him. Secondly, I don't think it's realistic at all for scum to NK ACfan (if he's town) because he would be an almost sure-fire lynch for D2.

So what are the

specific

reasons for your stance in this game?

[hapahauli]

Basically, a policy isn't grounds for an opinion unless you can justify it in the specific situation.

I want to try and sit down and see it from your point of view right now. Because I really just don't understand why you are holding the stance that you are.

[hapahauli]

^ My thoughts exactly

I'd expect a little more emotion from him ya know? His responses to my case are very clean and manufactured, and that's one of the reasons I'm still suspicious of AC. Ya think he'd display a litte more emotion/frustration having gone from 0 votes to L-1 overnight. Instead, he's very emotionally reserved.

[hapahauli]

^ My thoughts exactly

I'd expect a little more emotion from him ya know? His responses to my case are very clean and manufactured, and that's one of the reasons I'm still suspicious of AC. Ya think he'd display a litte more emotion/frustration having gone from 0 votes to L-1 overnight. Instead, he's very emotionally reserved.

I mean, I'm aware my role is not very useful, and I've been lynched D1 or D2 as a townie previously in other games without being concerned much about it. I think your case is based on totally wrong reasoning but I've explained that as much as I can, there's obviously no changing your mind and so I'm not going to waste my time defending myself further. Moreover, I've cast the vote against who I think is the best Day 1 lynch here, and most of the past couple of pages have been debates between my town reads over whether or not I should be lynched, so I haven't had much to add.

Tell me exactly again. What are the

specific

justifications you have for voting Varsoon?

Why do none of your other scum-reads compel your vote?

[hapahauli]

Basically, a policy isn't grounds for an opinion unless you can justify it in the specific situation.

I want to try and sit down and see it from your point of view right now. Because I really just don't understand why you are holding the stance that you are.

In my many years of mafia I have seen town PRs get lynched day 1, even been lynched day 1 as a PR. It takes the wind out of town's sails. It's not optimal play to take a gamble on day 1.

Idunno man. Nothing like a controversy to start discussion.

But I don't know what's such a "gamble" about this. Firstly, losing a 1-shot doctor isn't a big deal. Secondly, he has a pretty darn high chance of flipping red (as if I haven't posted enough on this already).

[hapahauli]

And honestly, there was nothing in this town's "sails" to begin with. Everyone's been lurktastic save a handful of people.

[hapahauli]

Last I checked 50% isn't higher or lower than 50%

What on earth does this mean?

Scott, where on earth have you been?

[hapahauli]

You said there's a high chance he's scum. That's incorrect. There is exactly 50% chance he's some sort of scum, and 50% he's town. Unless there is 3rd part that changes things.

Actually if we are being more specific there is a actually greater chance that 1 player out of 13 is town.

So the odds are we leave him alive at least 1 day

I'm kind of frustrated about another game so I'm done in here tonight. I'll let dashie post. If she wants.

-J

That doesn't make very much sense at all. Percentages are based on

analysis

, and not simply

possibilities

.

Under your logic, I could just say that NC has a 75% chance of flipping town, because that's the ratio of town to scum =/

[hapahauli]

OH and Scott gets scum points for trying to start a new wagon so close to deadline, because as of 468 nobody was voting toomai and we are 1 day out.

This I actually agree with a lot. The way that Scott comes in, doesn't comment on anything going on in the thread, and attempts to start a new wagon is a really classic scum-play.

I'd be willing to compromise on him tbh. Was my original scumread anywho.

[hapahauli]

Actually nvm. I still can't figure out why scum-scott wouldn't have hammered NC in his position.

Gotta think this one out a bit.

[hapahauli]

Last minute wagons can be alright, as long as people are active. If we don't make up the difference, you just need to have people go onto another wagon as a Plan B.

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Scott a little more. He's one of the few people in the thread who completely avoided the shitfest around my AC fan case. Scum generally are scared to get involved in such chaos.

[hapahauli]

UNVOTE: ac1983fan

With great reluctance I'm doing this.

I will gladly lynch him if I can get the support for it today, but alas I can't see that happening given how many people are hesitant about his claim. I had initially planned to play chicken with the non-voters and force them to vote ac1983fan at the end of the day, but at the end of the day, we need a lynch. While activity has improved in the last few days, it's not at the point where I'm comfortable consolidating at the last minute.

So therefore I'm back to my old platform:

We should be lynching

Nic Cage

or

Scott

today unless someone goes about and acts even scummier.

Given ac1983fan's treatment of NC, I'm still very wary of lynching NC. It feels like a pure lurker lynch, and

I don't like the fact that virtually everyone in the game is either voting him, or voting someone else and perfectly alright with lynching NC.

If I have no choice, I'd lynch him just to see someone flip, but I'm still not sold about NC.

I do want to lynch Scott though. I can sympathise with suspicion against Toomai, and even last-minute wagons. However him starting a wagon on Toomai while failing to address or post during the whole "ac1983fan shitfest" screams scum to me. That's the exact type of environment that scum are scared of, and Scott dodged it all beautifully.

VOTE: Scott Brosius

I will be active all of tomorrow to explore all possibilities and to make sure that this day does not end in a no-lynch. If you're town, please check the thread often and try to do the same.

Day's almost over, and we've had a nice last few days of discussion. All we need to do is get a good lynch.

[hapahauli]

So tl;dr

If I need to vote NC to prevent a no-lynch, I will do so. However, I'd like to see if we can get support for a wagon on Scott first. Both are useless lurkers, but I find Scott's behavior scummier over the past few days.

[hapahauli]

Wait a second. Guys. We have 2 days now.

[hapahauli]

@ GBGC

I have no concept on how that quote by Toomai is scummy at all.

@ J

AND hap also gains scum points for also trying to start a new wagon after I announce we have only 18 hours until deadline.

Nic is at L-1 now, so he needs to claim ASAP, like his very next post.

Well if you want to give the most active player in the game scum-points, you can do whatever floats your boat. I did say that I was going to remain active to make sure there was a lynch today, but that seemingly went over your head.

Regardless, we now have more time, so please entertain SB a bit more than you are.

[hapahauli]

post_id=4960851 time=1368786195 user_id=10128]Hapa I may be willing to join you on the SB wagon if you elaborate your case a bit.

There's very little to elaborate on really.

The guy's lack of anything over the last few days is pretty scummy.

I just bombed the thread with suspicion against acfan over the last few days. The most natural thing to want to do is to comment on all of that, since it has been the focus of discussion. Yet not only does Scott completely

avoid

the topic... he goes and starts a new wagon.

So objectively, what is his goal? He says he wants to kick off a new wagon, but he neither puts in the time nor the effort to push it through. Furthermore, given his activity, it looks like he was planning just to plop his vote down and inactive until past the original 18 hour deadline.

------
As a last bit, he's been lightly defending NC, but for someone who doesn't want NC lynched, he's not putting very much effort in not getting NC lynched.

[hapahauli]

J - aren't you the least bit skeptical that NC has been under suspicion all game? The way this wagon has formed IMO is even worse than that of AC or others - it has been this slow, acquiescing wagon in a lurky town. Wagons like that don't magically appear on scum.

Furthermore, pretty much everyone wants to kill NC. And if people aren't voting NC, they're voting someone else but are seemingly doing nothing to stop the NC lynch.

[hapahauli]

@Daemon

- It's scummy because he wants NC to claim and then support another 'successful' waggon on SB (which would lead to another claim). That would mean 3 claims in one day which would only benefit scum.

- GC

I suppose it could objectively be considered scummy, but I find that scum are generally a lot more subtle about stuff like that.

I think you're blowing that quote of his out of proportion.

[hapahauli]

@ GBGC

I have no concept on how that quote by Toomai is scummy at all.

@ J

AND hap also gains scum points for also trying to start a new wagon after I announce we have only 18 hours until deadline.

Nic is at L-1 now, so he needs to claim ASAP, like his very next post.

Well if you want to give the most active player in the game scum-points, you can do whatever floats your boat. I did say that I was going to remain active to make sure there was a lynch today, but that seemingly went over your head.

Regardless, we now have more time, so please entertain SB a bit more than you are.

being the most active doesn't = automatically town

No, but being active and providing almost half of the town's scum-hunting should pretty clearly show you what my motives are. I'd be impressed at myself if I were scum, but alas no.

remaining active or not, you already tried 1 counter wagon to nic, now you want to do a 2nd.

Why are you assuming NC is flipping scum?

Because otherwise, how does this make sense at all? I'm pushing my scumreads therefore I'm scummy?

explain why you don't want Nic lynched and you are trying so hard to get anyone else but him lynched

Answered this above, just wanted to address the first half.

[hapahauli]

am I concerned that his wagon was like pulling teeth and took the entire deadline to finally get him into a position to be lynched, when there was AT LEAST 2 counter wagons and now a 3rd trying to form?

NO, I am not concerned about that at all.

scum wagons, especially day 1 are damn near impossible to achieve, and this one fits the bill to a T.

but that didn't answer my question really.

explain why you don't want Nic lynched and you are trying so hard to get anyone else but him lynched

I did answer your question. I'm extremely skeptical about the circumstances in which this wagon formed.

And "trying so hard to get ANYONE else but him lynched" is a gross misinterpretation of my play. I have

two

scumreads over NC at this point. NC is a pure lurker lynch, and I'd rather lynch someone who's play I find scummy. Hence I will push my cases to the best I can.

And let me make this clear - I will vote NC before the deadline if there is no other way we can see a flip. However I still have many doubts about that wagon of his.

[hapahauli]

No, but being active and providing almost half of the town's scum-hunting should pretty clearly show you what my motives are. I'd be impressed at myself if I were scum, but alas no.

"Hey guys, look at me being all active and scum hunting. I can't possibly be scum"

ever heard of "hiding in plain sight"? just sayin...

Ever hear of insane conspiracy theories?

Anyway this is a waste of my time.

I don't know if nic is going to flip scum, it's possible he flips town but I seriously doubt it. Usually wagons on a townie do not take this much effort, and they almost certainly don't generate multiple counter wagons.

If i had to guess, Nic is a scum PR which is why it's making it that much harder, even just a scum goon would not be this difficult as scum would just buss from town cred.

Well I'm the one who generated all the counter-wagons. Since I know I'm town, I have a very different perspective on this lynch than you do.

Like assume that I'm town just for the sake of this argument - with that information, take a look at the NC wagon again. Where's the resistance... where's the counterwagon(s)?

[hapahauli]

I did answer your question. I'm extremely skeptical about the circumstances in which this wagon formed.

a wagon that takes almost 2 weeks to get to L-1 is more skeptical than a wagon that takes less than 24 hours to get to L-2?

Your conceptions of "resistance" are too basic.

Sure the wagon took longer, but there was basically no resistance in how that wagon formed. For example, if you take out the last few days of discussion (acfan shenanigans), NC was at L-1 without

any

defenders in the thread.

[hapahauli]

J, do you remember your post here?

ok, I thought i had seen a weird toom/SB connection but after that response and going back and looking in detail, I mis-read.

Vote: Nic

back to L-1

This was many days ago, right before I started things off on AC. There was literally no resistance to the NC wagon whatsoever at this point. Even those voting Scott were seemingly perfectly alright with seeing NC hang. Everyone.

Doesn't that make you skeptical at all? That's lack of resistance if I've ever seen it.

You can argue if you'd like that the ac1983fan wagon was the "resistance", however that would be the worst-timed resistance wagon for a "scumbuddy" in the history of mafia, no? Anywho, the logical explanation to me is that the NC wagon has been too easy.

You're welcome to prove to me otherwise.

[hapahauli]

Look on the bright side, if NC does flip town, you get to hold it over everyone's head and proclaim "see I told you so" and berate the rest of us for another day phase

Despite the act I put on at times, I'm not in this for my ego. I'm in this to win, and I'd like to start that off with a mafia lynch.

Toomai, varsoon, and AC were counter wagons

You voted Toomai first based on the VC, but you weren't pushing that wagon iirc, others were pushing him
You didn't start the varsoon wagon either.

So yeah, there was resistance

Ummm... I pushed Toomai really, really hard. He was the focus of most of my mid-day suspicion.

Basically all of the resistance was me, unless you'd like to call the handful of people who sheeped me "resistance." And keep in mind that even those who decided to follow me were pretty much all suspicious of NC as well.

[hapahauli]

Like how could you possibly construe that I wasn't pushing the Toomai wagon?

He was my first major case:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4934228

And I basically peppered him with questions throughout the day:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4935069
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4943911
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4945319

[hapahauli]

hp[leaves], so what? I know there wasn't much resistance to the AC wagon. That's generally what happens when I scream in a thread to lynch someone and bomb a giant case.

And honestly I'm much more skeptical about a wagon that slowly "creeps" on a player without meaningful resistance than a sudden wagon in an extremely volatile phase of the game (near lynch deadline).

[hapahauli]

Acually hell, we have 3 days left.

UNVOTE: Scott Brosius
VOTE: ac1983fan

3 days to change your mind is worth the effort.

[hapahauli]

GC - is your aversion to lynching ac1983fan still

only

based on his claim?

[hapahauli]

hp[leaves], so what? I know there wasn't much resistance to the AC wagon. That's generally what happens when I scream in a thread to lynch someone and bomb a giant case.

And honestly I'm much more skeptical about a wagon that slowly "creeps" on a player without meaningful resistance than a sudden wagon in an extremely volatile phase of the game (near lynch deadline).

That's just wrong. A waggon on scum usually goes slow whilst a waggon on town goes faster in comparison.

That's a broad overgeneralization. You need to take more specifics into account.

For example, the NC wagon (while slow) had zero resistance to it all game long (except from me, but everyone but J thinks I'm town). So what if it's "slow" - the ultimate effect/concept is still the same.

Also, regarding "fast" wagons, 5 votes overnight on someone after a big case and big push is pretty normal for what I"m used to (scum or town). A swell of votes is a situation where scum are incredibly afraid to post in, so often there's not much resistance at all to a last-minute wagon (even when scum is on the bloc).

GC - is your aversion to lynching ac1983fan still

only

based on his claim?

mostly, not only.

What are the other reasons?

[hapahauli]

J, can you call your other half in here? I want to talk scumreads with Rainbow

[hapahauli]

That's fine, thanks for letting her know. She has a lot more experience on this site than I do, so I wanted to ask her some questions about vote dynamics/etc.

[hapahauli]

Acfan remaining alive certainly makes night decisions more difficult on scum if he's telling the truth.

I expected more than this ya know.

And TOomai is probably not going to get lynched today.

Between NC and AC fan, who do you prefer and why?

[hapahauli]

Firstly, it's not 4 years old. AC fan admitted his mistake here:

...

(Oh, and I made an error when responding to your first post. You said your quotes from Open 480 were from Mini 480, and I just assumed they were from one of the games I played back in 07/08. But it was actually from a different game. My bad)

Secondly, it's not a meta case. Sure I spent a lot of time on meta, but the core is that he's voting a player for reasons OTHER than that player being scum. That's pretty fucking scummy - scum want to lynch people for being "anti-town" and town want to lynch "scummy" players.

[hapahauli]

UNVOTE:

Did I convince you?

*crosses fingers*

[hapahauli]

He didn't? He just unvoted himself, cause Zefiend was on someone, right?

[hapahauli]

You don't have to wait for this pony to actually be at my laptop to ask me questions, its not like they will disappear by the time I get off of work (which may cut into access this weekend since I need to go in for at least one half day).

Also we are almost for sure going to be still voting NC here. Outside of something massive happening with regards to ac he wont be getting our vote today, if he is scum he is pushed into a corner for what he does. If he is town scum are pushed into a corner.

Plus he is a good pick for NC partner, if you look at the two the both sorta acknowledge eachother but don't really take stances for the most part. Not sure where you are getting "that's not scum and scum" from there.

I really doubt they're on the same team. It's plausible, but mafia would have to be the least active, lurky mafia ever for them to be on the same team.

Honestly I wanted to just ask you general reads. Do you still stand the same on AC? Howabout Scott?

Also, what do you make of my points regarding the fact that the NC wagon had no effective resistance (besides myself)?

[hapahauli]

...

Although AC is making me nervous being quiet again.

...

Although AC is making me nervous being quiet again.

...

Although AC is making me nervous being quiet again.

...

Although AC is making me nervous being quiet again.

Are you suuuuuure you guys don't want to lynch ACfan?

[hapahauli]

@ ac1983fan

Why don't you like the NC lynch? You were remarkably open to it in your previous posts:

I'm still wary of Dyslexicon, and NicCage's latest post is openly admitted anti-town play, so I guess I can see why there is a wagon on him again.

Additionally, the two biggest wagons at the moment are against Varsoon and NicCage, both of whom I've seen heavy anti-town behavior from.

In your latest opinion on NicCage...

NicCage = The early suspicion of NicCage made me uncomfrotable, and I still don't see any scummy behavior out of him, just a fair amount of anti-town behavior. Null, ever so slightly leaning town.

... you mention you slightly lean town on him. Why is this the case? You've never explained why.

Furthermore, I've seen you call him anti-town left and right. This game, you've shown plenty of willingness to vote Varsoon for the sole reason of being "anti-town", and therefore I can't understand your lack of willingness to vote Nic at all. It doesn't make sense with the playstyle/voting mindset you've been so adamant about this past week.

[hapahauli]

Yep. Vote ac1983fan pl0x.

Anyway, we're about 24 hours until hammer. To all those on the NC wagon, please consider the above and the complete lack of effort from ac1983fan in the last few days before making your final decision.

Also, I'll be on tomorrow to make sure we don't no-lynch. If we have to hammer NC, I will do so, but ac1983fan is definitely the scummier player at this stage.

[hapahauli]

UNVOTE: ac1983fan

Is your argument, scum who is at L-2 and has claimed a PR is INTENTIONALLY staying off the other wagon at L-2 when there is absolutely no guarantee that they are safe? What scum does that? Really?

The only way that ac is scum is if NC is also scum and probably something he sees as more valueable than himself (even then, doesn't make much sense, grab the town points and run). Im just not seeing the point behind scum not doing any sort of self-preservation here. Really why does scum avoid that wagon in this spot? Especially when NC may very well vote ac first.

This makes sense. Really thinking about it, I can't justify the lack of self-preservation on ac1983fan's part. It makes very little sense from a scum-perspective (regardless of NC's alignment actually). At the very least, this gives me enough hesitation not to lynch AC today.

Consider this my intent to hammer NC in 3 hours.

[hapahauli]

Oh.

Well

now

consider it my intent hammer... blah blah... lulz.

[hapahauli]

@ Cheery

It feels like you've ninja'd your way in to make a few town points and stated facts that simply aren't there.

Wait... what? You just completely ignored the most important part of his post:

Is your argument, scum who is at L-2 and has claimed a PR is INTENTIONALLY staying off the other wagon at L-2 when there is absolutely no guarantee that they are safe? What scum does that? Really?

The only way that ac is scum is if NC is also scum and probably something he sees as more valueable than himself (even then, doesn't make much sense, grab the town points and run). Im just not seeing the point behind scum not doing any sort of self-preservation here. Really why does scum avoid that wagon in this spot? Especially when NC may very well vote ac f

--------------------------------------------------

He's still not at L-1...

WELP

But seriously, he effectively is at L-1. Jake/Rainbow want to kill him, but haven't placed their vote yet.

[hapahauli]

Wait a second. Fuck I'm confused.

Everything I just said is redacted. Need to think for a bit.

[hapahauli]

Yeah I'm trying to figure out if it's L-1 or not.

Also, I want to type up a list of reads before I hammer.

[hapahauli]

Oh I double-counted CherryPie. That was the problem.

Also GC, it sounds like you're concurrently pushing two wagons. Why is that?

@JFR - His actions look forced, like he's trying to look town. Also, if acfan is really a town PR he would've voted NC.
1. He knows that he himself is town %100. NC is < %100.
2. He's a town PR.
3. He was voting Varsoon for just being anti-town. NC has been anti-town.

His case on Scott is just a copy of what everyone else has already been saying and the NC waggon was more viable than the scott waggon.

- GC

Hapa vote NC, there's only a few hours left.

[hapahauli]

Vote: Nic Cage

Alright let's lynch him. Time's running short and we gotta lynch someone.

[hapahauli]

If NC flips scum, probably best to look at some of the ac1983fan sheepers (like Dislexicon and Daemon).

If NC flips town, my two scum-suspects would be

Cherry Pie

and

Dyslexicon

. I'm not as sure about a 3rd scum-suspect, and there's no reason for me to really force one.

Cherry Pie

is a typical scum "attempting to contribute w/out actually contributing" methinks. I think most of their hydra's posting has been them criticizing other player's logic (especially vocal players such as myself and J) rather than actively scumhunting. Unfortunately I can't make a fancy case on this, and it's up to you (the townies) to look at his filter and get a feel for it. Read his filter, and note the lack of scumhunting there. Most of his actions are based off of criticizing players (often those that are in no danger of getting lynched) rather than questioning and/or pursuing his scumreads.

Dyslexicon

just really hasn't done... anything. And this read isn't so much that he's done something blatantly scummy, but there's also nothing that he's done that would suggest he's town. To have no reason to think someone's town (game actions, filter, votes, or otherwise) is strange at this stage of the game. Likely scum blending in here. I'll do an elaborate ISO if I'm alive tomorrow.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some thoughts on other various players on my mind:

GCBC

- BC's ragequit strikes me as townie. I'm not completely comfortable with them, but I'm leaning town here.

Scott Brosious

- ... is probably town. Similar to the logic on ac1983fan, he had a golden opportunity to hammer NC when he was the 2nd leading vote candidate and NC was at L-1. Instead, he was adamant about his suspicions against Varsoon. There's a lack of self-preservation mentality here.

Zefiend/Dessx

- Null/Wildcard. Zefiend gave me town-vibes, but 6 posts isn't enough to make a concrete read.

Daemon

- Slight town-read. He has this enthusiasm about him that feels townie. Less of a sample-size than ideal, but not someone I'd lynch tomorrow.

Toomai

- Completely null. I'll be pretty concerned about him if NC flips red though.

hp[leaves]

- His intent to hammer ac1983fan then subsequent "waiiiiit a darn minute this shit is moving too fast" makes me think he's town. Sounds very genuine, and I don't understand why scum wouldn't entertain the idea of a hammer there more (unless ac is scum, but as mentioned earlier by Rainbow, severe doubts about that).

[hapahauli]

If you can't post something at length, just summarize it to the best you can.

[hapahauli]

My gut tells me that too. But we need a lynch, and I'm not sure if we can gather a feasible counter-wagon given the inactivity.

[hapahauli]

Varsoon, are you willing to hammer NC in the event no one else shows up?

[hapahauli]

NC, I really wish you would have put that amount of effort into the game before.

[hapahauli]

Varsoon, are you willing to hammer NC in the event no one else shows up?

I don't want a nolynch, either, but I won't vote NC.
He's town.

Well the thing is, not flipping him doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of things. We still would need the same amount of mislynches to lose.

I think he's town, but I'm not 100% sure he's town. Also if he's alive and maintains his level of activity, he'll just be a distraction tomorrow.

If it comes down to it, please hammer him. I know it sucks, but literally

anything

is better than a no-lynch. Even lynching a townie.

[hapahauli]

We are breaking up unfortunately =/

Unless you start acting super active and townie, and then we will make us some townie-babies.

But how long will you be in the thread? Hammering in about ~1-2 hours is ideal I think.

[hapahauli]

God I'm so annoyed that we have to lynch NC.

Can we get a roll call? Maybe we can explore some last-minute possibilities.

[hapahauli]

So if Varsoon and Dyslexicon show up, that makes 6 of us. Almost enough to swing a wagon.

If we are last-minute lynching someone, I think we go after a lurker (like Scott). I'm honestly more sure that NC is town than AC fan right now, so wouldn't mind him either (despite my previous misgivings due to Rainbow's post).

[hapahauli]

Yeah we have time to work as long as we can get the players.

[hapahauli]

UNVOTE: NicCage

Let's talk this over some. Are there any other candidates we'd like to explore other than Scott and maybe AC fain?

[hapahauli]

Also, I'd rather get this done tonight, since I'm liable to sleep to noon (EST) tomorrow. I'll be up for 4-5 more hours.

[hapahauli]

This is not the time for pointless fights right now Cheery. Will you be here for this discussion or not?

[hapahauli]

I wouldn't lynch Jake, Period. All we know is that he made a bad tunnel on you, and that's not grounds to lynch him.

Plus, he's given more of a shit about this game than most of the players here,

especially

in the chaos of the last few days.

[hapahauli]

This is not the time for pointless fights right now Cheery. Will you be here for this discussion or not?

It's always time to ask about inconsistencies, you never know when you might end up dead.
I'll most likely be online (just a matter of whether I'm online on this account), but I'm not in favour of bringing another wagon to lynch point.

Yeah funny when those inconsistencies come about...

I mean, I'd lynch Jake, but I don't feel that strongly about any other players other than ac and scott. Hi Cheery Pie, what do you think of my Jake case?

Jake is leaning scum to me already, your case hasn't changed any of that.[/quote]

When on earth were you leaning scum on Jake? Since when?

Also, if you were leaning scum on Jake, you were you following him on the NC wagon? What?

[hapahauli]

EBWOP:

This is not the time for pointless fights right now Cheery. Will you be here for this discussion or not?

It's always time to ask about inconsistencies, you never know when you might end up dead.
I'll most likely be online (just a matter of whether I'm online on this account), but I'm not in favour of bringing another wagon to lynch point.

Yeah funny when those inconsistencies come about...

I mean, I'd lynch Jake, but I don't feel that strongly about any other players other than ac and scott. Hi Cheery Pie, what do you think of my Jake case?

Jake is leaning scum to me already, your case hasn't changed any of that.

When on earth were you leaning scum on Jake? Since when?

Also, if you were leaning scum on Jake, you were you following him on the NC wagon? What?

[hapahauli]

I'm seriously contemplating lynching you Cheery. Reading through your filter again... none of it is scumhunting. You just constantly rip on the logic/arguments of others while providing nothing yourself.

[hapahauli]

If Rainbow is on, I want to hear her opinions on AC and Cheery.

[hapahauli]

Dyslexicon - we are not lynching NC today. So it's time to do some scumhunting. Give me some people you would consider lynching in the next few hours.

[hapahauli]

Yes we have about 13 hours to go.

Get some sleep and come back to us. Though I can't promise that we won't settle on you in the meantime.

[hapahauli]

When on earth were you leaning scum on Jake? Since when?

Also, if you were leaning scum on Jake, you were you following him on the NC wagon? What?

Since after Varsoon voted him and I felt that it was a possible bus.
The NC vote came back because I felt he was scummier than acfan and Varsoon wasn't getting lynched.

Current thoughts on Varsoon?

And wait. You thought that Jake was bussing his "teammate" that hardcore from the outset of Day 1? That's like...

[hapahauli]

What are Cheery Pie's individual personas? Also, which half is posting right now?

[hapahauli]

Idk I'm still a bit confused on the Varsoon van to be honest. I think I may need a recap on why so many people want to vote him so badly

Old news.

Who do you want to lynch Daemon? List me all of your scum suspects. Even if they're gut feels, I don't care.