NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Slandaar]

confirmed

[Slandaar]

Do prods happen in pregame? I don't know! but I surely won't be getting one!

<<< Only if you never confirmed. Which as of the time of this post, two people had not. >>>

[Slandaar]

Why are your views so polar opposite to our recent meeting Nacho?

[Slandaar]

Ceph and Fuzzy seem like scum to me.

We won't be massclaiming just so you all know.

[Slandaar]

Slandaar, why don't you want to massclaim?

What good does confirming ~4town do when there are 24 players? Not a lot except get the PR's killed. POE doesn't work on Day 1. But the doc can protect the cop! Maybe the cop wouldn't get killed if they didn't claim in the first place?

Massclaims are a case by case basis and this is an obvious no.

End discussison.

[Slandaar]

Bulbazak is scum? Lets make a poll!

Current Tally:
Yes: 1.
No: 0.

[Slandaar]

I suggest watching this wagon closely, as I can see scum pushing it hard.

Thanks for the advice.

Eddie, this is my one and only suggestion, and only because I know you, but I suggest you check out Majiffy's meta before you proceed with this line of reasoning, otherwise you're going to get steamrolled.

Q1: Scum will push the Majiffy wagon.
Q2: Eddie don't push the Majiffy wagon unless you are sure as you are going to be steamrolled!

Could be scum.

Could be.

[Slandaar]

ArcAngel is town
HD and Om hydra is town

Hope this helps everyone.

[Slandaar]

Who posted 526?

[Slandaar]

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about CTD's suggestion anyway...

He tried to do this in the Team Mafia game which caused Glork to suggest it in OGML's New York game in which scum ultimately won... I don't remember a scenario where mass claim Day 1 actually lead to anything fruitful other than KKB's OP town setup game.

I wanted to nip CTD's plan in the bud because I think it would be highly detrimental to the town.

I was not aware that Glork took the suggestion to another game and that they actually went through with it. Having just skimmed that game, I reject your implication that D1 massclaim lead to a scum win. They actually managed 3/4 scumlynches on the first 4 days as a result of it and with the exception of one scum who managed a somewhat creative fake-claim, all the anti-town roles were uncomfortable as fuck and uniformly claimed VT. The mod acknowledged in post-game that the scum was handicapped by the massclaim. It's actually a great example in favor of D1 massclaim.

For those not in the loop, here are some of the benefits of D1 massclaim:
1. The most immediate benefit is obviously a good chance to catch scum outright via counterclaim or set-up analysis.
2. Scum absolutely, positively hate it. They are forced into long-term commitments before they have a chance to get a grasp of the game.
3. It rules out any kind of mid-to-late game claiming shenanigans, which severely hampers the scums strategic options.
4. It allows for better synergy between power roles, which is especially beneficial in a complicated set-up, which Oversoul is suggesting is the case here.
5. It allows for a much better informed D1 lynch as is usually the norm.

People have a knee-jerk reaction to D1 massclaiming that is entirely dictated by tradition and I've never seen a convincing argument that outweights all those benefits. I urge everyone to consider it with an open mind.

-----------------

Meanwhile, I'm voting Oversoul for essentially soft-claiming with no apparent benefit to the town (as Nacho has put it, we don't need a claim to know of the presence of more than one killing role), and inconsistent framing of his intent behind the claim ("was planning to all along" vs. "was trying to nip massclaim in the butt").

B&B, then.
So yes.

I agree with a D1 massclaim here.

If we do that, we're popcorning.

And we're starting with the informed townie.

Agreed.

Fuzzy's stance regarding Massclaim: Well if we do it we are popcorning!
(its not a stance hes letting everyone else decide while he actually ignored both the initial suggestion and the follow up)

Nacho says 'I want to massclaim too!' so he says 'well if we do it popcorn!' its just not town, his opinion does not exist.

A similar thing can be credited to our friend over here;

That's the best I can do in this situation, as I can't help what the rest of the town decides to do.

The simple version is yes you can influence it if you really believe its not good for town you make sure it doesn't happen, he just doesn't want to. A massclaim where he as scum doesn't claim? Christmas came early!

[Slandaar]

Now unless you are suggesting that I have some sort of godlike power to prevent people from massclaiming, what more do you want me to do?

Well if you were town you could try to convince others not to do it. Perhaps argue why its a bad idea.

Do something.

It appears this godlike power is just common sense?

[Slandaar]

[*]Cephrir appears to have been on the site for awhile, yet he is unfamiliar with several of the more prominent players

An observation, but a pointless one; who cares?

and his play isn't up to par with what I'd expect from someone of his experience.

For someone so well versed in Majiffys meta you would think he would realise that he should only be comparing this to Ceph's own meta not comparing it to other players with similar experience.

That'd normally land him in the same area of initial suspicion as Om,

Why? because he doesn't play as well as you think he should when you have no idea how he normally plays? and because of this he would be 'definite scum'?

but I took a look at his wiki, and he has a win:loss ratio of 4:10 as town. That keeps him effectively in the null/scum area for now until I see something more conclusive.

So, your whole argument was hes experienced and not playing how you would expect someone of that experience to play, you then find out hes not very good as town (or I assume thats what you are suggesting your conclusion is) and so hes still leaning scum for not playing well even though he is matching his own meta or how you perceive it (of not playing well)?

[Slandaar]

I incline towards Nacho being scum also.

Which is interesting.

[Slandaar]

In a recent game I wanted a massclaim on D2 with 3 dead VT; Nacho was very strongly against it (as town). Which obviously is a stark contrast to here.

I just am unsure why he would out himself to me so easily if he were truly scum.

I believe AK (Mala) was in that game, which is probably why they voted him.

[Slandaar]

The Om-HD hydra vs. Cephrir: I have played with HD before and have heard of Om. Their experience on the site conflicts with their lack of meta-knowledge on Majiffy, another prominent member on the site

I have played 50ish games on this site and only one with Majiffy. 2 including this.

So, if I have that little meta knowledge, why can't they? I almost guarantee they have played less than I have.

[Slandaar]

Nacho did you know what CTD was doing?

I didn't read your wall sorry HD, I tried, I was telling myself how nicely you asked so I must read it! but I didn't.

[Slandaar]

-BeautyAndTheBeast
-DLG
-Mac
-Nero Cain
-Bacde
-BabySpice

B&tB did.

You are misinterpretting Fuzzy's 'agreement' he didn't support it at all he said 'if it happens' that is in no way an opinion on if he wants to or not he didn't actually voice what he prefers he was in fact the worst offender of your tell by far.

I was watching for the exact same tell so you should know you probably need to take me off any reaction lists; just put me as your top town read!

[Slandaar]

@ slandaar - why are you staying away from us?

Are you scum?

[Slandaar]

Slandaar if you could comment on section I said towards you - I'd greatly appreciate it.

I am town, you are town, thats all I have to say.

[Slandaar]

Eddie and Slandaar and Oversoul seriously wtf?

I'm trying to move this game in a direction and you three are being deliberately anti-town by not even responding to my strong assertion I made just 4 posts ago

I asked him a question I am waiting for an answer.

[Slandaar]

You scum?

[Slandaar]

Why are we town exactly?

When the mod randomised the PM's you received a town one.

Why are you asking such silly questions?

[Slandaar]

Didn't you say that yesterday?

[Slandaar]

Hi Baby Spice

Read on me please with explanation.

[Slandaar]

Syry why are you copying the style of Mr Obvious's reads list?

[Slandaar]

I hope any sane town would see just how bad that Ryu wagon is.

[Slandaar]

Get em Bacde!

[Slandaar]

are people seriously this stupid on this site?

(hes scum)

[Slandaar]

Seems you asked so nicely I cannot say no!

VOTE: Nacho

Om/HD and Eddie join the Nacho wagon please.

[Slandaar]

This is a content post.

Not a Proddodge.

I will refer to it later to explain just how it ties into scumhunting but for now I must post only this!

[Slandaar]

Thor are you town?

[Slandaar]

That kitty hydra is town
Bacde is town

Everyone write this down so you don't forget in future, thanks.

Eddie seems town to me also.

[Slandaar]

Also; CTD is town tattoo it onto your arm or something so there can be no 'i forgot' excuses.

[Slandaar]

That kitty hydra is town

You'll have to explain that.

Well you see Nero...

When the mod randomised the PM's

they

received a town one.

[Slandaar]

Why does that make him scummy?

Let me help you.

Day 2 3 VT dead in 13man game;

Sland: lets massclaim.

Nacho is town in these quotes...

3/4 PR out of 7 town alive helps us narrow down things considerably

Scum can fakeclaim but it will be obvious when they do.

really
because massclaims are kind of shitty when we have an SK
since they kind of cut through the PRs pretty easily
and if we have a massclaim then he will have no reason to claim town

i don't necessarily think we have an SK
but the possibility exists, and it makes massclaim shitty

I claim Doc

if we decided to massclaim, then yes that would be a good idea.
i still think it's a horrible idea to massclaim. maybe a little bit less than i did before, but it's still a horrible idea.
you also wouldn't be conftown with an un-CC'ed doctor claim

He should probably die. (In case anyone doesn't understand why; 1. there is possible SK in this game no reason to assume there isn't and 2. the situation in said game was a much greater spot to massclaim than here and 3. I had a solution to ensure SK issue wasn't an issue; the vig claims first or no massclaim)

Nacho is scum trying to push an idea he thinks will help his team.

The Oversoul case is pretty bad also; yes everyone could see its a fakeclaim but it doesn't mean it comes from scum.

[Slandaar]

I don't understand why it took Slandaar so long to start attacking me based on massclaim discrepancies, considering he brought it up early then sort of postured for a while

I gave you a chance to show you are town if you were; my case doesn't weaken if I leave it for a while during which time I can see how you act which would perhaps add to the case or perhaps I would decide you were town who just radically changed their views in such a short period (very unlikely but it wasn't impossible)

then jumped on my wagon when it started to gain momentum.

Bacde asked me very nicely to vote and I could not refuse. I had not intended to vote at that time not that it actually matters.

His posting elsewhere has been just weak as shit; he's thrown out a few random reads, but he took FOREVER to vote for some reason and he's probably scum.

Why does me not voting early mean anything? You have fallen for the OS trap again.

Which of your posting is better than mine? Enlighten me.

[Slandaar]

Town:
Bacde
AK
ArcAngel
Nero
CTD
Om/HD

Very Very Likely town:
B&tB
Eddie
Ryu
Mac

Probably town
Sean
Syry

Scum to varying degrees:
Nacho/Thor/Fuzzy/Ceph/Bulba

[Slandaar]

Mala is town based on Meta its how I read that slot also.

[Slandaar]

Its the way its said not what is said or to some extent not said.

[Slandaar]

I lurk about a lot as town, it depends on my mood. I can get links if they are really needed, not like I could ever do it as scum if I don't as town the fact I understand this says all you need to know.

Scum to varying degrees:
Nacho/Thor/Fuzzy/Ceph/Bulba

Tell me more about...me.

You are being disruptive and not in a good way; disrupt the game by trying to divide town seems to be your gameplan.

[Slandaar]

I get the feeling this is a Thor tell.

What?

How many games have you played with Thor?

[Slandaar]

Too many cooks.

[Slandaar]

Thor what do you think about those who do not answer your questions?

[Slandaar]

If I flip town, you're living in my scumlist for a while. You owe me that much.

Lets be honest this is just scum trying to sound town;

(if Nacho is town this is what he said) If I am lynched I am putting you in my scumlist, you owe me that.

[Slandaar]

^^Right? Who the butt says that?

I'm so down to lynch nacho and live in his scumlist its not even funny

Exactly, it doesn't mean anything.

[Slandaar]

ArcAngel IS town.

Bulba is the scum you guys seem to always be missing.

[Slandaar]

Town:
Bacde
AK
ArcAngel
Nero
CTD
Om/HD

Very Very Likely town:
B&tB
Eddie
Ryu

Syry

Probably town
Sean

Baby Spice
Desperado
Mac (thez)

If I had to guess I guess town:
KK

Still Deciding:
DLG
Oversoul

One to Watch:

Hanzo

Scum to varying degrees:
Nacho/Thor/Fuzzy/Ceph/Bulba

Updated with everyone included I think. Bolded are people who moved or I added in.

[Slandaar]

Ryu wagon was a counter wagon of sorts.

Its a fallacy to suggest such things anyways; if no scum are leaders there won't be any scumled counter wagons because its not in the scums nature to do so, so, they will be waiting for leaders (town) to lead the wagons and to follow them along.

[Slandaar]

Last time i check.. Ryu wagon has 3 votes including me.. I hardly call it as a wagon...
And 3 votes is good start for scum to sheep... that didn't happen... like i said.. Either scum has really put on breaks on day 1 or Nacho is not scum.

Red Ryu - 6 (Oversoul, Thor665, Baby Spice, Mac, Bulbazak, Syryana)

Nachomamma8 - 5 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Amethyst Kitty, BeautyAndTheBeast)

Well it did happen as we can see above; note Nacho wagon existed first. Then the wagon died a bit as noone pushed it.

[Slandaar]

Bacde you don't want to discuss things with me?

[Slandaar]

Yeah but then she made the long reads post and everyone was like "wow AA9 so town" and I got caught up with the crowd

ArcAngel is town for her reaction to massclaim.

[Slandaar]

Thor asks Nacho a question
Nacho Ignores
I prod Thor
Thor forgets Nacho still.

Thor had a line of enquiry on Nacho which was ignored and then he kind of just dropped his line of thinking.

Probably means Thor is scum.

[Slandaar]

You planning to RESPOND to his case though?
Because it looks like a knockout punch to me.

Edit: I see your link...how is that relevant, specifically?

[Slandaar]

What did you find out?

[Slandaar]

I found out that I couldn't find a solid reason for his meta shift.
I found many examples of him as town and scum opposing masclaim.

I then asked myself, if I was going to do a large meta shift in my playstyle, would I do it first as scum based on a lie, or as town based on reality.

The answer is pretty obvious unless you're derpy.
There's no value in a scumvantage way in him advancing this opinion change nor in how he did it.
Therefore it's not a scumtell.

The advantage is he gets a massclaim which he believes is terrible for town on D1.

So, we know the advantage;
I have said I do think it is a little obvious for him to do it as scum but if he believes that getting a massclaim D1 is good enough to risk being lynched for his team then he will do it as scum he might even think he can get away with it on the WIFOM argument you have used; a reasonable assumption and one you seem to have not factored in.

The meta shift seems just too extreme to be from town as he is too strongly against massclaims in the (RECENT) past and with as you yourself say NO real reason for the change.

Therefore hes scum.

Which of this do you debate Thor?

[Slandaar]

It isn't a meta shift when hes scum; Hes scum trying to gain what he sees is a huge advantage.

Oh.

[Slandaar]

Why do it as scum in this game and never before?

Well there are many explanations for this but they all conclude with; to gain what he thinks is a huge advantage.

Perhaps he thought he could get away with it with this playerlist etc.

How about you link me to all these scumgames where he opposed massclaim on Day 1 that you have seen.

Oh, wait, that would make it a meta shift, wouldn't it?

Oh.

But, y'know, answer anyway.

Its not a shift because;
As town it means he doesn't think this, as scum he therefore can't break his town meta constantly, so he must revert to opposing. Therefore it is not a shift in the meta.

[Slandaar]

In fact Thor you explain to me how Nacho can magically be enlightened to massclaims when he makes the argument there will be conftown so we have a voting block but can't grasp this concept in a game with only 10 players and 3 dead VT. How does that make any sense? was he not thinking in said game? Or is he just a scumbag here?

[Slandaar]

Well there are many explanations for this but they all conclude with; to gain what he thinks is a huge advantage.

Find him discussing that in a situation that does not involve 10 alive in an SK game as opposed to a Day start large.
He also never said it was a huge advantage for scum - he said it was dangerous for town in a SK present situation.
That's a questionable word twist on your part - clarify?

He didn't know it was an SK it was all theoretical just like this could have an SK or be Multiball etc, so your argument is what? he thinks its more beneficial in a large game where POE is useless over a game with 10 players and POE much more beneficial? (It also forced the SK if an SK into an awkward spot which I explained)

How if something is terrible for town (i believe the term was 'shitty') is it not beneficial to scum ie advantageous? Clarify for me please as this seems like very scummy nitpicking.

Because we're a list full of people scared to call Nacho on things or massively known for advocating mass claims?

I am known for it, yes, just not on D1.

Go to his user page, search through his games.

You know I won't. I want to see you actually have done what you say it should only take you 2 minutes seems you should know which games they are. Right?

So...your proof is that he'll shift back to his old meta after this game and that proves he's lying now?
Because if that is what you're saying I'm bewildered, and if that's not what you're saying then I don't follow you.

I didn't call it proof of anykind. I just said if hes scum its not a metashift.

Thor: its a metashift
Sland: well not if hes scum
Thor: yah it is!
Sland: eh no (explanation)
Thor: LOL NICE PROOF.

Its impossible to prove unless you know his alignment.

I thought that half of your point was that he was playing differently here than there, now you want me to argue differently?
Also, a town voting block through reads is a totally different concept from massclaim - but tell you what, you get him as town saying how bad and pro scum he thinks town voting blocks are and I'll help lynch him right now and sheep you tomorrow.

Yes that is half of my point.

I see you interpretted what I said in some strange way that makes no sense. I explained everything to him very clearly very recently; he did not understand the concepts, so how in a worse situation can he think its beneficial when so opposed previously? this is the issue and one you seem to avoid.

[Slandaar]

Something can hurt town without helping scum - otherwise the term anti-town wouldn't exist.

Oh come on Thor don't play dumb. Of course it can't.

I would guess the term came into existance because someone can do something that benefits scum while being town hence they were anti-town but not scum.

And by saying whatever happened was anti-town you are saying they helped scum ie it benefited scum.

Give me one example of something that is antitown and does NOT help scum.

Just one.

Also, there *is* a big difference between something hurting town and something helping Mafia.
Which is what you are saying he is and why he is doing what he's doing.

No there isn't a difference. The two are directly related as explained above, it is now on you to show me one example of where your 'theory' comes from.

Again, are you saying *this playerlist* would tend to make Nacho believe that?
Because that's what you're claiming as a rebuttal to my point - so...y'know, defend the claim.

I said there are many possible reasons this was just one possibility; I see no reason he couldn't have thought he could get massclaim with me in the game on D1 as from his POV he probably expected me to support it strongly.

Heck no it wouldn't, why would I commit that information to memory?

OK no problem.

I took a look and couldn't see any examples, I guess you are lying???
(lol)

Go and get these examples you found Thor.

So...it's a shift of his scum...wait for it...meta?
Because otherwise you could just go and show me a scum game where he advocated doing this and then we'd have a lynch already.

No it is not a shift in meta It is more of a one off gambit when hes scum. When he is town sure it is, but when he is scum, this doesn't apply because he is just trying to gain the advantage; ergo he returns to his former stances in future games.

You are assuming a shift for some reason, there is no reason to do so because as you have said there is no obvious reason for such a shift.

But it doesn't make sense from scum! well it does... to gain an advantage like I have said 10 times now... but ohhhhhh Nacho would know he gets caught doing that!

Well maybe Nacho thinks he could get away with it because people will think that.

Nice argument you are making Thor I guess it is now disproved by using the higher level argument? or did you not realise you were arguing WIFOM?

I'm still correct on the core question of if he should be lynched over the tell.

Nope. You are not correct.

Impossible to prove, just like its impossible to actually prove anyone is scum, it doesn't mean I should not be thinking hes scum it is not impossible to try to work out which it is. I do not believe as town he would support massclaim on D1 I have explained clearly why.

Therefore I think hes scum.

So your claim is he only sees the benefit of town voting blocks when scum?
Is that where this is going?

No, clearly not, this seems like a 'word twist' we are talking about benefits of massclaiming one of which is that you get a block of town to work with ie a voting block from the PR's and the obvtownreads. If he understands this on D1 of a game (which was part of his argument) where the benefits from such a thing are small then how can he think its bad on D2 where POE is much stronger with 3 dead VT?

I am saying the concept of early massclaim being beneficial were already explained to him so for him to be town there must be a trigger somewhere that changed his whole opinion on these things very drastically; where is the trigger that switched his mentality? where did he become enlightened? there isn't one that I can see and there isn't one that you can see as you have said; therefore hes scum.

Somehow your conclusion is different though...

[Slandaar]

@Slandaar

ok but that doesn't mean that massclaiming is cool for today
i will push it through tomorrow hell yeah
but that doesn't mean it is good for today

I did look more at his stance in that game, y'know, the one where town him was totally against massclaim and that's your case.
Found that quote. Y'know, because he's *totally* against massclaim as town.
Derpy-derpa-derp.

Good I am glad you looked.

My argument was never that he doesn't think massclaim is useful EVER. But thats a nice new take you have on it I see you are running low on arguments. This is him supporting a D1 massclaim; Him vehemently refusing on D2 shows he doesn't like EARLY massclaims which is the whole issue.

In said example; it was D2 with 10 alive; the next day assume the worst and 6 dead 7 alive with 3 scum. Hey wait that is lylo where the vast majority think massclaim is standard.

What actually is your point here? how could you derp this up so badly?

Thor, my friend, you have a scum PM don't you?

[Slandaar]

He didn't sheep CrashTextDummie. He just copied the format.

So...copying the format is scummy now?
You issue is that he didn't have good analysis - why did you even bring CTD into it?

I feel like I will post my opinion on this argument: Thor is scum. Sums it up quite adequately.

[Slandaar]

Mass name claims and Mass PR claims can both easily have this effect.
Immediately off the top of my head - lyncher who knows role name but not player name of target in a mass name claim situation.

Hi Thor welcome back to reality where we are playing a normal game not some wacky monstrosity obviously something can be antitown and help town in a bastard game where if the town loses they win but that does not aid your argument does it?

I am pretty sure you understand this.

In other words your example is not applicable and quite desperate.

The Mass name claim is of negligible gain to scum and town usually, but a third party is dramatically aided by it.
Lyncher targets are almost invariably town.
Therefore that would be anti-town, benefit a scum, and not benefit mafia.

Again; we are in a normal game where nameclaims do not exist so your argument does not hold however; say it does; What you are saying here is a lyncher finds their target as you say a townsperson, but this does not help the scum?

So, let me get this straight, you think a guy who wants to lynch a townie and no other person will not help scum? at worst he will act as a distraction for scum at best he will help lynch a townie for them.

I have played in a newbie game where a JKer was facing off with a single scum - he indicated who he would jail.
The scum no killed for hijinks.
The JKer forgot to send in his jail - a massively anti-town action...but in this case it helped catch the scum.
I was the scum.
I actually think he idiot savanted twice in that game, and both times it ended up helping town even though it was painfully anti-town play that he was so untrustworthy.

But this is all silly debate at this stage - I just wanted to show I could do it.

Oh jesus christ

In this bastard game this one time a super powerful townie with hundreds of night action choices forgot to send in his night action and then the game ended and town won because the secret town win condition was for him to not send in a night action before scum killed him.

Specific examples do not mean anything we are talking generally something that is anti-town helps scum in most situations and those it doesn't you only know it doesn't after the event ie hindsight. If someone believe the massclaim is terrible for town they must also believe it helps scum the two go hand in hand.

This is in essence what I said, you debate it with this nonsense.

If I am a cop and never send in my night actions, am I helping scum? YES.

So, you say not sending in actions is antitown and does not help scum? well it clearly does help scum for example, you could have just killed the JailKeeper and been done with it instead of playing some pointless gambits.

How about if he had targetted you and you submitted to kill him? he forgets, you won the game.

your example is so bad and is not a sensible argument.

Lets come back to present and what we are talking about

If someone thinks massclaim is bad for town in a NORMAL game; do you think they think it benefits scum?

The answer is obviously yes, so what are you debating with me?

I have had enough responding to you

But this is all silly debate at this stage - I just wanted to show I could do it.

Congratulations, you showed me!

OK, if anyone doesn't understand why Thor is scum I will explain it;

Thor: Nacho never said Massclaim helped scum
Sland: Well he said its terrible for town its the same thing
Thor: NUH UH
Sland: Show me one anti town thing that doesn't help scum

Thor: LOL WELL IF THERES A LYNCHER... NAMECLAIMS (debateable as is but don't exist in normals hence I used the bastard example, its irrelevant to the point when we are playing and talking about normal games)

Thor: Oh and this newbie game this one time!

So, the newbie example looks correct except its a one off and only in hindsight can you say it helped town you would not think it would; forgetting to submit night actions DOES help scum generally this is obvious.

Go back to the massclaim argument; Nacho thinks its terrible for town; it might not be; but if he THINKS it is he must also think it benefits scum. Just like in a game where not submitting a night action from a PR happened you would think that is terrible and benefits scum even if you luck out and it helped you.

Summary;

Thor's arguments are just really really bad. He nitpicked my wording horribly, got called on it then kept trying to argue out of it with more nonsense.

Throw in the way he had no clue what KK was saying which is laughable in itself...

Thor isn't this terrible as town.

VOTE: Thor

Lynch him today.

[Slandaar]

If Fuzzy is town he is helping scum to blend in by playing terrible and being mislynch fodder making it easier for them to win ie benefitting them.

[Slandaar]

So, you're scum too.

This has been a productive couple of pages.

[Slandaar]

What are you accusing me of Nacho?

Does your post have a point or did you just misrep me really hard?

[Slandaar]

What are you accusing me of Nacho?

Does your post have a point or did you just misrep me really hard?

...so you didn't read those posts re: massclaiming. Okay.

I did read them

What relevance do they have to me arguing about something you said in a different game?

[Slandaar]

You're arguing that my meta shift is too dramatic to be coming from town. I've posted recent games of me seeing massclaim as beneficial to town, meaning that wait: meta shift's not too dramatic because it already happened.

That quote is taken directly from the post talking about Thors 'Nacho didn't say it is good for scum' (In whatever game it was)

So, how is it relevant again? did you read my post Nacho?

[Slandaar]

Lynch Thor

Trust me; hes scum.

[Slandaar]

The part where I explained how lurking/being useless as town helps scum and you were like 'lol 2000posts says otherwise'

[Slandaar]

Thor is scum because hes a clever guy and the way he tried to nitpick me is astonishingly bad.

Sland: Nacho thinks Massclaim helps scum
Thor: no he never said that
Sland: well he said its terrible for town so he must also think it helps scum
Thor: nope
Sland: Examples of any situation where what I say doesn't apply
Thor: WELL THIS ONE TIME IN BAND CAMP
Thor: See Sland I told you I could do it!
Sland: good job Thor you showed me! Now die.

His examples don't apply and are absolutely terrible. It shows that he nitpicked my wording ridiculously for no actual reason other than to try to show me in a bad light.

Why is nitpicking scummy? because it is not legitimate scumhunting it is fake.

Also realise Thor subconsciously (or consciously) knows he is wrong when he said:

But this is all silly debate at this stage - I just wanted to show I could do it.

See how he is no longer arguing what I said is wrong? he is just saying he wanted to show he could show examples of where his argument applies? (which are completely awful examples have I said that?)

Now lynch him.

[Slandaar]

If its a huge pet peeve which noone knows about then they can't be doing it to bait you. (because they don't know it annoys you)

The bolded text is annoying, yes, was his intention to make it hard for you to respond? No. Hes just quite new and it is a common thing among newer players to do similar things until someone tells them its annoying at which point they can begin to break the habit.

I hope you can take a break, calm down, and see this.

[Slandaar]

I can't speak for anyone else but that would have been sufficient for me. Bacde, it would be a shitty case if this was the whole case but it's like 1% of the case

Show me the other 99%.

[Slandaar]

Thez is really looking like scum to me recently.

[Slandaar]

Thor/Bulba/Ceph/Fuzzy and Thez although I prefer the other 4. Nacho said something a while back that is only ever being said if its multiball so lynch him tomorrow if it is otherwise hes town.

Everyone needs to pick one of the 5 named and vote.

Just sheep me now, there has been enough talk.

[Slandaar]

OK I have an announcement.

After much consideration I have finally made my decision. I have debated this for days while looking at everyones strengths and weaknesses but I believe the person who would make the best cheerleader for the Thor wagon is Bacde!!!

So congratulations to Bacde! I made the decision as Bacde just had a little bit more experience than all the other applicants and I really needed someone who knows what they are doing; I just don't have time to train you up unfortunately. Sorry to everyone else, I know you all desperately wanted this position but I feel Bacde is the correct choice here.

Bacde you start work today! Make the Thor lynch happen.

[Slandaar]

Bulbazak is scum because he reads so fake and all he does is argue with the person in question which for the most part is Desperado but can also been seen in Om/HD he doesn't try to convince you ie the rest of us they are scum he tries to convince them ie Om/HD and Desperado he is right.

[Slandaar]

How do you know that mafia didn't silence him?

Here is a prime example of Bulba's fake posting.

4 days till deadline I expect 12 more votes on Thor by that point.

[Slandaar]

Think less sheep more KK.

I caught Thor, just sheep me, you don't even need to understand the reasoning you just need to know I am town; I catch scum a lot; I am telling you I caught Thor. Just vote him I will get the lynch to happen.

[Slandaar]

Thor

You have been told, now vote.

You too B&tB lets do this.

[Slandaar]

no no no

lets get nacho

You're Fired!

No seriously

Thors day is today

If its not multiball Nacho is town hes not good to lynch today.

Nacho said something a while back that is only ever being said if its multiball so lynch him tomorrow if it is otherwise hes town.

What did he say?

Nothing anyone else will be able to use for their benefit; the way he views Mac/thez is exactly how I have. And yes that makes him town unless its multiball.

[Slandaar]

What a ridiculous counter wagon to my Thor wagon.

[Slandaar]

What about a thez lynch

I think this could work.

[Slandaar]

What's thez done to draw your ire, Slaand?

Arguing with beyond obvtown Bacde over trivial things.
Acting helpful
Votes the easiest wagons he possibly could.
He doesn't try to push wagons except ones hes not on.

[Slandaar]

Town or Scum? 'Look guys, I think its best we just get a lynch so I'm just gonna vote the biggest wagon oh he looks kinda townish but maybe derpy guess I won't be voting him'

[Slandaar]

I think I need to just vote the biggest wagon at this stage the town just needs a lynch.

[Slandaar]

It appears that is Oversoul

Unfortunately he seems a little townish and derpy if the case were hes derpy I could get behind it and vote him but not now.

I guess I am going to leave my vote where it is because this completely makes sense with my previous post.

Spoiler: <<< This was a completely unnecessary late-mod-edited-votecount :oops: >>>

Oversoul - 9 (Desperado, Kublai Khan, Syryana, Nachomamma8, Cephrir, Bulbazak, thezmon221, PeregrineV, Nero Cain)

Desperado - 5 (ArcAngel9, Thor665, Om the Destroyer, Red Ryu, ThAdmiral)

Nachomamma8 - 4 (Seanald, CrashTextDummie, Bacde, Oversoul)
Nero Cain - 1 (BeautyAndTheBeast)
Thor665 - 1 (Slandaar)
EddieFenix - 1 (Amethyst Kitty)

Not Voting - 3 (EddieFenix, penguin_alien, Haylen)

With

24

alive, it was

13

to lynch!

Oversoul was at L-4.

[Slandaar]

Nero do you agree there is a very clear distinction between what I said and what you said?

[Slandaar]

Nero do you agree there is a very clear distinction between what I said and what you said?

but I don't know exactly what you said. I know that Bcade and Bulb were arguing over the number of the scum and that Bulb posted an insanely high/inflated number (7-8) and Bcade's was more reasonable.

OS, gimme me a tl;dr case on Despo?

If you don't know what I said then why are you including me in any kind of list saying I said something similar?

[Slandaar]

Unfortunately he seems a little townish and derpy if the case were hes derpy I could get behind it and vote him but not now.

but he is derpy but I'm starting to think that his town meta is to play scummy and derpy so when he rolls scum he'll be a shinning beacon of towniness.

Though some of his play makes my head hurt and it makes me want to scream "THIS GUY IS SCUM!!!" so I don't really care if we lynch him or Nacho today.

lol

Well OK then.

Except these are not my thoughts they are Thors.

[Slandaar]

on one of my reads, someone said that you were thinkin' this was multiball and you aren't denying it so if you are town you should stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

Chinese Whispers.

Perhaps Nero Cain if you had read what I actually said and why that someone being Bacde interpretted as he did you would know the difference.

So you are a Thor alt then? Why are Thor's word in your post?

I was making a point about how absurdly scummy Thors actions are.

A bit like you did earlier in the thread as I recall. No?

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Desperado

I think I prefer this.

[Slandaar]

Your analysis is quite fantastic Thor I applaud the effort you have put into it;

Thor/Bulba/Ceph/Fuzzy and Thez

Oversoul - 9 (Desperado, Kublai Khan, Syryana, Nachomamma8, Cephrir, Bulbazak, thezmon221, PeregrineV, Nero Cain)

Desperado - 6 (ArcAngel9, Thor665, Om the Destroyer, Red Ryu, ThAdmiral, Oversoul)

What exactly are these 'issues'?

[Slandaar]

Your issues are this one thing I did long after you started calling me scum?

I see.

Who are the strong scum reads amongst your list?

You Bulba Ceph are the main 3.

Because you're calling what I did absurdly scummy - and coming along with it.
So...what is your opinion of their votes and reasoning.

What does this matter? I had to vote one of the wagons so I looked at both of the individuals in question and picked who I think is the better lynch.

The question you SHOULD have asked is WHY did I choose Desp over Oversoul not this nonsense.

Also, it's blatantly obvious they're not all scum just by that vote count.
Just saying.

Oh yes! Blatantly obvious indeed!

Wait! perhaps it is multiball... thats strange, your analysis seems to forget this? Perhaps one is an SK... or your terrible point is just being outplayed because scum with any experience ignore these type of things.

[Slandaar]

Meanwhile Slandaar has issues with Nacho dodging my question, then calls me scummy for not pursuing it, then doesn't blink when you do it multiple times.

Nope. You have misrepresented me Thor.

The issue was that you appeared to forget to follow up on it which can clearly be seen by the way I questioned you the issue was NOT that Nacho ignored or as you call it dodged the question.

Although you did later say you didn't follow up on it as you found the answer yourself which is debatable, however, I can't prove you didn't. So, this is all kind of a moot point now.

I do wonder though; Why ask a question in the first place if you are just going to go and spend a fair length of time to find out the answer?

[Slandaar]

Thor is definitely scum

It should be obvious to everyone at this point.

I clearly showed Thor I had to choose between two wagons one had him (a scumread of mine) on it the other had three of my scumreads on. This means I had a choice; I clearly had to vote with at least one of my scumreads at this stage of the day; so I could vote with Thor or with my other scumreads; Why then does Thor think there is something wrong with my choice?

Why did Thor not ask how I chose which of the two to vote instead suggesting voting with him is scummy? He is not looking for my motivation for voting Desperado he is just trying to paint me in a bad light.

Thor IS scum.

[Slandaar]

I hate multiball...

VOTE: Thor

[Slandaar]

Just lynch Thor hes scum.

[Slandaar]

Just lynch Thor hes scum.

Seriously explain please

because this is the type of argument you made in Mini 1393 when you were bussing him

I need evidence man, or at least explain your gut?

All the more reason to vote him then.

[Slandaar]

Oh

Bacde is scum

[Slandaar]

Thor I get the feeling you are trying to dodge me.

Why do you think I am scum?

[Slandaar]

As already mentioned, gut.
If I had to put it into words, it was your awkward way of attacking Bulb for his reasoning behind attacking Ceph who you also thought was scum when his reasoning, at worst, is a rather shockingly common scumtell lots of people use (and it always looks weak as sin regardless). Even moreso, you attacked him over it when his ending conclusion was 'null tell'. I mean, seriously - you attacked a null tell and complained that his read on the slot was unclear and muddled.

What are you even talking about?

Quotes are required here.

Lets all note however what Thor previously said;

unless you're saying he was hunting other group scum poorly or something?

What point are you trying to make?

Which obviously can apply here; And yes Thor you can answer this.

Then, toss in your underpresence combined with the slow and not impressive push on me for rather awkward reasons and I continue to hold the scum feel.

This is about average for me as town; you however ARE an underpresence. If my push was slow what is yours?

How is it you have no actual reasoning Thor? Doesn't seem like you.

[Slandaar]

Sland: WHy U find me scumz!?!
Thor: Well, it would be when you attacked Bulb for his read on Ceph while you also thought Ceph was scum, and your attack was basically 'your nullish scum read is weak'.
Sland: Quotes needed!!!

I am lazy I am not going to try and figure out what you are talking about and I don't remember everything I say.

What is wrong with it? Why can't I think they are both scum? it is not his conclusion that is the issue its the way he got there in the first place.

Anyways the point is simple; as Thor you have said it just means you disagree with my scumhunting as if I were scum I would be hunting the other team... so, what is your point? I do want an answer to this.

Also - good job addressing the Ffullsilade case as asked. Thanks for that. I know you're 'average' for yourself, but I don't recall question dodging and shoddy scared sidestepping as 'average' for you.
Mah bad!

You don't recall very well then.

They are town, I really don't have an answer for your 'case' but I don't need one town do things that don't make sense a lot of the time I can just tell they are town.

[Slandaar]

Mollie is basically saying the same thing as me

Thor is clearly pushing on our slots the most, yet he is voting someone entirely different and then has the audacity to suggest my push on him is slow.

He is scum.

[Slandaar]

How was how he reached a conclusion of 'null leaning slight scum' an issue to you? You made a lot of noise on the issue, but I failed to see his scum agenda there.
Clarify?

Well lets start from the beginning of my post shall we;

How is saying someone doesn't have experience playing with some of the more prominent players in the game useful? is it scumhunting? clearly not; so why is it in his thought process?

I will even make this simple for you Thor! Multiple choice question! I am such a nice guy!

A) He is saying pointless things to look like he is scumhunting and putting in effort
B) Well I am Thor here is a long rant as to why this makes complete sense!

My point is - you don't look like scum hunting the other team, you look like a player lazily hunting lynches. That's scummy. Sure, I suppose we can make the argument that, as scum, you should be hunting the other team, but even if that holds out then as town you should be hunting...y'know, anything.

So, you're point regarding this one post is a generic blanket statement about your new opinion on my play to date?

Good deflection.

What we were talking about Thor if you need reminding is thus;
Thor: this post is bad
Sland: why?
Thor: bad scumhunting
Sland: Well If I were scum it is still legit scumhunting to me
Thor: WHAT? NO! MY POINT IS THAT YOU SHOULD BE SCUMHUNTING ANYTHING!!!

Lack of hunting and attacks that seem opportunistic are the issue, and I don't see how the theory scum you hunting for another team should disprove that due to your overall style at the moment.

I have taken this part from the rest because it doesn't fit there; Why is it you didn't say this previously?

Do go on about how my attacks have been opportunistic.

So...just 'gut' then?
Why doesn't your gut have an answer to my case?
Do you think Mollie lied? Y/N
Then, with regards to that answer, why do you think she did what she did as town?

Not really gut no.

You have played with me enough Thor you must have heard one of my many townread rants before so I won't go on. How is this scummy of me? I'd love to here why.

Your push on me is slow.

Its all relative; If you believe my push on my top scumread is slow when every post for the last 50 of mine have been trying to lynch you then your push on myself what is that? what is your push on mollie hydra?

I don't think you can justify my push on Mollie as slow without putting a lot of egg on your face.

Slower than mine on you and that is the point as you know.

And, what is wrong with my current vote? Are you saying I have to constantly vote Mollie regardless of what else is happening because I'm sure she's scum and no one else is? Explain that thought more.

You have continually avoided the big issue by voting someone else.

If you want to start a wagon on someone you must vote them otherwise why would anyone else? It is the start of day not like deadlines are a concern at all.

Also, both of you have played with me enough, I suspect, to hear my rants about how useless one vote wagons are.

Nope not heard.

So, Thor lets go back to yesterday;

Why have you still not asked me why I decided to vote Desperado? Is that not a very big question for you if you wanted to discern my alignment? For something you made such a big issue over one would think you would ask why I voted him not just try to suggest voting Desperado is scummy.

Do go on though about how voting Desperado with you is scummy when you thought he is scum.

[Slandaar]

So you were calling him scummy because he included a piece of information that you thought was a random add on in order to come to a conclusion of 'null-scum'?
Why do you think, as scum, he felt the need to amp up his nullish case on a player?

Well that is part of it I didn't feel like going through the whole post still as I said;
A) He is saying pointless things to look like he is scumhunting and putting in effort

There is your answer as to why it is suspicious, good question though Thor; it is completely irrelevant.

Here's my understanding of the conversation;

Thor: this post is bad
Sland: why?
Thor: bad scumhunting
Sland: Well If I were scum it is still legit scumhunting to me
Thor: Yeah...except you're not actually scumhunting in any real way at all.
Sland: WHAT? NO! I AM AND IT'S BAD SIMPLY BECAUSE OF YOUR OPINION!!!
Thor: I'm actually surprised you even went that route -

you're not even trying to explain how your scumhunting is 'any good at all'

Sland: BUT, I HUNT!
Thor: Your defense is even, 'if I was scum, wouldn't I be hunting as hard as I could anyway?' when you're not even hunting - you're banging your head against someone who has you as a secondary/tertiary read and isn't even pushing on you right now. You're not even playing the game, you're just annoyed I have a scumread on you.
Sland: I...WHU...BUT...BUT MY SCUMHUNTING...
Thor: What scumhunting? I bet if I looked at everything you did today the sum total would be "Waaaah! Thor suspects me and I disagree!"
Sland: ...I USE CAPSLAWK!

I mean all you have to do is look above. I clearly had explained some of it previously.

Do you like to misrep continually?

Everything after the bolded is just made up isn't it?

Previously when?

Perhaps when I asked you. That might have been a good time.

I have, that would be that dink on Bulb. You other attacks are Nacho wagon (a totally hotly opposed wagon to be sure) and this awkward side swinging at me inbetween as smoke screen.
Why, what interesting attacks have you done?

So, they are opportunistic not just regular scumhunting? I see so then please explain to me what defines them as opportunistic?

Going back to the Mollie question -

why can't you explain her town motivation

for the action/lie?
Even further, look at my last post or two with her where I point out she's lying in her meta awareness of me.
Then go listen to how I caught her in Audio Mafia and what she was doing, which is identical to here in many ways.
Then tell me you think it's legit the stance she is taking about my ability to read her.
Seriously.
Go do this.

Oh come on Thor this is ridiculous now. When you were scum with me remember how you kept going on about AP lying? he was town.

Not everything town says and does has town motivation in it.

Why do you think that? I attacked them early and often, have called them out for major scumtells, and have consistantly invited and demanded people to comment on those scumtells.
How would you have me do it 'faster'?
Serious question.

The issue Thor is you continually say my push is slow insinuating it is scummy; what more do you expect me to do other than what I have done?

For one you could vote to try and encourage others but you don't.

There are many things I can do at the start of the day.

Yes many things.

Like vote your top scumread.

Respond to posts regarding you at the end of D1.

Things you seem not to do.

Fascinating - well, later when you guys are telling me you understand my meta I'll remember to laugh.

Yes OK Thor good one!

Why would I be saying that again?

There are a number of reasons I dropped that line of attack.
Wrack your head for a while and maybe you could come up with one or two.
Hint: I am not tunneling you.

Oh I know the reason because I am obviously right.

Yet you still don't ask why I voted Desp while also saying I don't scumhunt; how strange, maybe if you asked you could better discern my alignment but you don't because you are scum.

[Slandaar]

What is your awareness of his town game where he would not do that as town?

lol

So, I can never think he is scum for anything because I don't know his town meta... well that seems completely sensible.

Are you being serious Thor?

Nope you are just scum.

Also, again, why would he lie to amp up a read that was not actually a strong read in any case?

I never said he is amping up any read.

I disagree, where did you do that?

The part where I said he is saying pointless things in an attempt to look like he is putting in effort and scumhunting?

So...you're saying I delayed answering it for...some sort of gain that is suspect? Or are you just randomly swatting here?

Well... Possibly you wanted to keep things as low key as possible; unfortunately for you I am town so the chance of that happening is 0 at which point you have to escalate things from your end also or you look bad hence the staggered reasoning.

I can post more theories but it really doesn't matter, fact is it is strange you couldn't post that when I asked.

You need me to explain the Nacho attack as opportunistic? I se eno value to that.

Yes.

The case was good.

I think the attack on me is opportunistic insomuch as it showed up when others also were swatting at me, also, as you noted, you're aware my presence in this game is not my usual self and I think you smell that as a weakness rather than a scumtell and are treating it as such. Just wait another week and some change though...

lol

Of course. Why would I be doing that if I were scum and not hunting the other team Thor?

Your attack on me smells opportunistic. You were attacking someone whos presence in this game was quite low because you smelt that as weakness.

I mean keep making stuff up it looks really good.

I think the attack on Bulb is because, hey, newbie saying something that is superficially scummy - attack, attack, all while not paying attention to any logic behind it, nor considering it in line with your other reads at the time.

So, everyone who voted Oversoul must be opportunistic in your book, who else? Nonsense.

I can't think a newbie is scum? that is your argument?

Wow. It's a bit like I can't think people are scum who I have never played with before because 'maybe they do it as town'

How you are still alive is beyond me.

Remember me saying I would have lynched him over that if I was town?

But, again, seriously, go look at Audio mafia. I caught her with the *same thing* happening here.
And she's acting like that's crazy talk.
It's a blatant lie on her part - I want you to at least understand where we're both coming from so I can force you to make a statement about it that isn't 'gut'. What can I do to make that happen?
Even look at how she's interacting with me when i bring it up - she's dancing around it because she knows I'm right. You'll note she's not saying *I'm* wrong or lying, she's just acting "so confuzzled" by what I'm saying. There's a reason for that.

I don't care, I. do. not. care. They are town.

Just like AP was.

Heres another example;
Thor: I am going to check VC then vote the biggest wagon
Thor didn't vote the biggest wagon

That is also a lie... technically.

I can't recall the last time you asked anyone to consider me as scum for any reason. I have done that to my primary read.

I asked many people to vote you its the same thing.

You mean like what I did yesterday?
Or, maybe, ask people to look at my case and deal with, again, replies of 'but they're town...for reasons we can't explain' which is what I'm getting from you today.
Stuff like that?

Well they are town because of how they think.

Do you need my rant on townreads?

You are correct.
That doesn't mean I'm not doing things, and it also doesn't make me scummy.
In fact, what even is the logic there - I wall war with Mollie yesterday and then don't vote her today for the scum gain of...um...wait...for the scum plan of...
What is my scumvantage here again?

Because tomorrow you will be all 'lets lynch them today'

Or maybe you will again vote someone else only to later try to lynch them because 'you have thought they are scum all game'

The thinking behind this is; when both of us flip town you look terrible so try to avoid lynching us as long as possible. Sure its multiball so a little more complicated but I know I am town and sure they are. Even if you think we are both flipping scum we would have to flip opposite teams to not make you look bad.

2. Why do I need to know your reason? If you had a good one you would have said it, if it mattered to me I would have asked. You're accussing me of not looking for information you're not even interested in sharing and then acting like somehow that's my issue. It's not - I don't care why you voted him, I care that you voted him at that point. Frankly, later in the game, I still may - but your reasoning behind it is meaningless except insomuch for how you were reacting to me at the time, which was even what my attack was about. I didn't attack you for voting him, I attacked you for voting him while I was also voting him after you said what you said about me. I asked about that part. I don't see what's confusing there.

The 'confusing' part is you want to figure out why I voted Desp with you and not Oversoul with my other scumreads yet you never asked for an answer.

[Slandaar]

I have had enough responding to walls time to cut to the core.

[*]Cephrir appears to have been on the site for awhile, yet he is unfamiliar with several of the more prominent players

An observation, but a pointless one; who cares?

OK this is scummy because...

A) He is saying pointless things to look like he is scumhunting and putting in effort

ie he is trying too hard to look town; it reads fake.

Somehow Thor has tried to suggest 663 is scummy many posts after I explained part of the reasoing as we can see in 3025.

So, I can never think he is scum for anything because I don't know his town meta... well that seems completely sensible.

Are you being serious Thor?

I am being serious. Allow me to phrase it another way; why do you believe this is scummy as opposed to poor play?

I never said he is amping up any read.

Okay...why do you think he is adding on extra 'fake' scumhunting to help add to the impression of how much scumhunting he's doing...on a read that ended up being a nullish read.
I personally think 'amped' translates that the same way, but whatevs. I really just want the question answered. Feel free to insert a word of your choosing as to what he did to the case, the core question should be able to survive that change and then be answered.

I have described why you would do that as scum, I wasn't aware opportunism went out the window as a scumtell when multiple scum factions existed. If you believe that then I disagree.

3025 point shows very clear reason for suspicion; Thor cannot grasp this he still in 3039 has not picked up that 3025 IS the reason. Its completely ridiculous. Thor is scum. He is making Mountains the size of Everest out of nothing.

[Slandaar]

Why do you take that as a scum action when it could simply be derpy town - especially considering you're claiming he lied and faked scumhunting to come up with a null read...which, I would tend to suggest, shouldn't need much faking or padding of the case over.

You are lying Thor. I didn't claim he lied anywhere.

He was clearly telling the truth; he padded out his reasoning with something which is not related to alignment to look town. Town don't need to pad reasoning to look town Therefore its scummy.

Why did you need this explaining? it is very obvious what I was saying the first time I said it.

[Slandaar]

Trying again - okay, he 'padded' he didn't 'lie' I love the semantics.

It isn't semantics.

You are saying I said something completely different to what I did. You are therefore lying.

Why do you keep arguing with me when you have such a strong townread on me Thor? seems rather scummy.

lying; not semantics.

For an example of someone arguing semantics we do not have to look far though do we Thor?
Sland: Nacho thinks massclaim helps scum
Thor: NO HE NEVER SAID THAT
Sland: Well he said its terrible for town same thing
Thor: NUH UH SLAND HE NEVER SAY IT HELP SCUM THOUGH

The question is, why did he, as scum, feel the need to pad a read that was a null read?

To look like he was putting in effort and scumhunting to look town.

It being a null read does not have any relevance.

How many times have I said this now?

Why is the padding not coming from newb town who thinks the silliness he's garbling *is* a legit tell?
How did you conclude he was the one and not the other?

lol

What legit tell could it possibly be?

[Slandaar]

Good case AK! I shall lend you my support!

VOTE: Ceph

[Slandaar]

Just so you all know I am currently offering 2/1 Odds Day 2 in Manical Street Mafia will be shorter than Day 1.

Look me up if you are looking to lose money!

(Disclaimer: This is a joke to emphasise the state of this game I am not actually taking bets)

[Slandaar]

Bacde you know I was purposefully making a point voting Ceph.

Don't you?

[Slandaar]

lol

[Slandaar]

The reason is that everyone is a cook which I said ages ago.

It doesn't help Thor is scum completely causing chaos within the town he needs lynching badly

[Slandaar]

Bacde is probably redscum because at the start of the day he switched his stance regarding me and Thor; which would be influenced by Ryu flipping Blue.

As Redscum Bacde D2 would know;
The red team and Thor wouldn't be part of it
Thor and Ryu had a fair argument early in the game making them unlikely to be buddies.

And so Bacde would as redscum conclude Thor isn't scum which at the start of day 2 is what happened with his read switch on me for pushing Thor.

[Slandaar]

Havn't done one of these in a while so...

Town:
AK
ArcAngel
Nero
CTD
Om/HD
FF
KK
Baby Spice/Penguin

Probably town
Sean
ThAd


Scum:
Nacho/Thor/Fuzzy(Haylen?)/Ceph/Bulba/Bacde/Eddie/Desperado/Mac (thez)/PV

Lots of scums!

Thor is definite
Bulba is close to definite with Ceph.
Fuzzy/Haylen very likely
Nacho very likely
Bacde very likely
Thez very likely
Eddie was quite scummy end of yesterday.
PV is a bit of a long shot but mostly there due to connections.
Desperado is kind of meh scumish side note is that hes town when Bulb is town.

[Slandaar]

I didn't accuse you of the former so it has no relevance.

[Slandaar]

No.

[Slandaar]

So you think bacde's change in stance is about *who* flipped blue, not that a blue flipped?

Obviously

Thor and Ryu had a fair argument early in the game making them unlikely to be buddies.

Hence Bacde would think Thor isn't Blue.

It would be odd if the red team didn't have him down as a potential opposite number on day 1.

So, you are saying Bacde can't be red due to this? do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

[Slandaar]

Instead of the normal town thought of 'oh Thors probably red' (no reason hes not); he went with 'WHAT SLAND SCUM PUSHING THOR'

Even though he had me as town and thor as scum.

[Slandaar]

It would be odd if the red team didn't have him down as a potential opposite number on day 1.

What is the point of this if what I said was wrong?

[Slandaar]

I think you are missing the point.

If Ryu was that obvious he would have been lynched.

So, why do you think every redscum would think Ryu was scum?

[Slandaar]

Seems completely legit

[Slandaar]

Decided to post the whole thing, since Slaandar conveniently keeps only quoting the very beginning. I believe you can see that I explained everything clearly. Also, if you'd go back to the original post, you'll see that this is in response to Eddie Fenix, who asked me what my thoughts on the game were.

Will be starting page 123.

When you say conveniently you mean Slandaar was talking about the first part of a post he made regarding this post which he fully addressed in the initial post but I have no clue what he and Thor are talking about?

Convenient indeed.

[Slandaar]

What I think you're getting riled up about is that all I wanted you to do was explain your reasoning--because you not explaining your reasoning is something I've seen you do before, in mini 1393, when you were bussing Thor. So I pointed that out to you hoping that you would explain why Thor is priority #1

I already explained my reasoning in the day Prior and Thor hadn't posted since so; What were you expecting me to say? except;

to which you made a "clever" response by saying that if I thought you were bussing that I should vote Thor

...except I didn't have any evidence that you were bussing. All I saw was you pushing a case in the same way that you push cases when you are scum

Well you do... considering you think I pushed like that as scum bussing before then its logical I am playing to my bussing meta as scum again. Or; what was the point in saying it was inline with how I bus instead of just this is what I do as scum?

I know you have a MAJOR tendency to tunnel on town, so I don't expect you to ever change your read on me (despite my being able to fully and reasonably explain myself), and in a way its kinda good because now I have less of a chance of being killed at night

Do explain it then.

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Thor

Such a scumbag hiding from me in his other games.

[Slandaar]

I wasn't going to vote Thez but at this rate it will take forever to lynch him; hes scum it should be pretty obvious based on his claim alone; Universal Backup who failed to backup TWO PR? Na.

Even if you want to argue some WIFOM I suggest you just ignore the claim and think of it as VT as it clearly isn't a PR you should care about if it can't back anything up that dies.

Therefore we look at his play and come to the same conclusion of scum.

VOTE: Thez

[Slandaar]

But the one thing I can say, is that he isn't sucking up to anyone. And seeing as how you're saying he is, I want some evidence that shows it.

He was hardcore buddying up to Majiffy who he previously had said he always read as scum.

You said at some point that, you expected me to engage you directly if

I thought I was scum

and I did.

Scumslip.

Good spot.

I shall reward you with a promotion to definite scum. Congratulations Bulbazak!

[Slandaar]

I can't understand it either.

[Slandaar]

VOTE: AK

[Slandaar]

Your analysis is wrong ThAd;
Its not townpoints they should get but nonblue points.

You may think 'why would they move off a wagon not on their buddy as redscum?' there are many reasons mainly though you just need to realise redscum were hunting bluescum so if they were redscum who decided thez wasn't bluescum they would move off the wagon unless one of their buddies was in some kind of danger (not the case thez's days were numbered) afterall if they think thez is town they don't want to be part of what they think is a mislynch.

I do completely agree those who moved off are not bluescum though.

[Slandaar]

Hey Bulbazak

Remove me from your shortlist I am town you are wasting time considering me as anything else.

[Slandaar]

Yes. But they discuss other players, so maybe confirmations were done in thread pre-game?

Please go on.

Are you afraid?

How did you know?

[Slandaar]

???- go on how?

By explaining what happened and why you think ThAd is town. And like Ceph I find it hard to believe Dan posted more than once in the qt.

[Slandaar]

Who is your neighbour Desp?

[Slandaar]

Slad, what's up with the sudden change in reads?

Thor flipped... town

[Slandaar]

Seanald.

I knew someone had claimed it but forgot who...

When you claimed why didn't you claim him as your neighbour?

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Rena

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Desperado

I would still lynch Rena. I don't see how a town watcher works within the setup when bluescum had a ninja.

[Slandaar]

Slandaar -

So because Thor flipped town it gives you the right to 180 your reads without explanation.

No, it doesn't.

I need no rights to flip my reads, if they change they change. Your reads apparently work slightly differently; you need to ensure there is a smooth transition... I wonder which alignment needs to worry about such things.

Thor flipping town made me reconsider a couple things it was the trigger.

Your tunneling is unbelievable against Thor D1/2 and reminds me of your scum tunneling on me in GoW.. I forgot how badly you tunneled there until I had to get a link from your ISO.

Yes Good Job on this argument as soon as I switch my read on you, you are trying to discredit me with the ridiculous tunnel argument. Funny it didn't come up any other time just coincidentally timed aye?

[Slandaar]

What use is a ninja

unless

town has something like a watcher?

Well if Haylen is Redscum... But that was my mistake.

[Slandaar]

I think my super duper amazing point against ThAd was too subtle

[Slandaar]

What use is a ninja

unless

town has something like a watcher?

Well if Haylen is Redscum... But that was my mistake.

That reply makes no sense. You said you "don't see how a town watcher workins within the setup" not "how a redscum watcher".

OK

ThAd says 'What use is a ninja unless town has something like a watcher'

See how ThAd doesn't think about the possibility of redscum having a watcher or 'something like a watcher'? thats because he is redscum and knows they don't hence I coloured him red.

So, my reply is; if haylen is redscum which shows how town doesn't have to have a watcher for ninja to be useful for blue... but based on what ThAd said this is obviously not correct hence; But that was my mistake.

Tie this with his townpoints instead of nonblue points and its pretty clear at this point.

[Slandaar]

Anyways

Bacde I promise you Nacho is not bluescum.

[Slandaar]

Thor dumb town, posts to actionDan make this more apparent.

If you're reading someone as Town, why are you working so hard to alienate that player?
Why, if you're reading someone as Town, are you expending effort to marginalize their opinion?

"Dumb Town, or Scum" is an exceptionally scummy read to give out for myriad reasons.

This guy needs a noose. Can't wait for the game to "officially" start so we can "quick-lynch" scum.

Spoiler:

Being town does not equal doing the smart thing nor that they have the right idea.

Yeah, this is dated, and all, especially since I no longer believe you're scum. My original problem was that calling someone "dumb Town" is practically guaranteed to make that player less likely to want to be cooperative with you, and Town cohesion can be a powerful weapon. Making Town cohesion more difficult serves a scum agenda. Plus, by casting another player as dumb, you send a signal that their posts should be ignored. And, regardless of my personal assessment of someone's abilities/intelligence, if I think they're Town, I want their opinion heard, not ignored. I may not agree with them, and I'll discuss with them why, but shoving them aside seems contrary to working towards a Town win.

Om is saying some of the dumbest things known to man, their posts on B&B are atrocious.

Is this another "dumb Town" read? I can't really tell, although I don't believe that's what you meant. I would appreciate you explaining some of what you find atrocious.

I really don't think Nachomamma8 is very likely scum at this juncture. Seems to me he's demonstrating a desire to make the game more difficult for scum through advocating the mass claim (my personal opinion is that early mass claims are functionally better for Town given that site meta so heavily discourages it, and scum get to hide behind "OMG SAVE THE PR'S", and scum aren't prepared for it. Forcing people to lock into a claim early takes away much of the ability of scum to craft a claim later when more is on the line. Well, plus, I derped a LYLO because of a fake claim that I believed and wouldn't have been possible to foresee that it would be beneficial if forced out early.). And, while Nachomamma8 hasn't really stressed this point, there was something significantly scummy about Oversoul's claim. That was the fact that he said he was planning to claim, but didn't when he made his first post. Then, after CrashtextDummie brought up the mass-claim, Oversoul took the easy "no way, man!" route, but then offererd his own claim up and said CrashTextDummie's idea had nothing to do with him claiming. So, Nachomamma8 pushing the Oversoul wagon seems to come from a Town motivated mind set, to me.

You got any kind of a read towards ArcAngel9?

Above spoilered is just here to show him asking Ryu about AA9 just before voting her and that Ryu should still be in his thoughts.

VOTE: ArcAngel9
I'm truly disturbed by the complete lack of scumhunting.

We should massclaim. I am not joking.

Raise of hands, everyone in favor.

are you crazy.. No claims plz!!!!!!!!!!



Mastin2, I don't have any issue with HD hydra.

This is the kind of reaction I expect to a proposed massclaim from scum. Belittle the idea, but take no initiative to figure out why someone is proposing such an idea.

Also, rather than any commentary about any of the content that developed pre-game, or up to that point, an aside to the mod that served no purpose.

^wow, that VCA is just mind blowing. Great job Mastin

This post, in particular, gave me scum feelings towards ArcAngel9. Absolutely no commentary on the game state, no attempts to figure anything out. Prefering to interact with the mod over interacting with the game and other players is not Town motivated.

Her later commentary that the Oversoul wagon is bad 'cuz it's soooo quick again betrays her lack of interest in figuring out anyone's alignment.

Yep, yep, this is scummy behavior from someone who got a scum role PM. Let's lynch her.

{Amethyst Kitty, Bacde, BeautyAndTheBeast, Cephrir, Nero Cain, Om the Destroyer} --> Players I have no interest in lynching.
{ArcAngel9, Bulbazak} --> Players I would instantly lynch given the chance.
{Desperado, Nachomamma8, Slandaar} --> Players I'm uncertain about.

Everyone else has either made no impression on me, or haven't posted.

The whole 3rd party/Indie thing threw me for a loop when I read through it. My Town read on BeautyAndTheBeast just about went out the window. With a little more explanation, I'm thinking it probably was a dust up over different meanings applied to the same general term.

My read on Nachomamma8 dropped away from Town through this, though. I mean, I don't at all get him calling Nero Cain's flare up a dumb point. That looked a significant amount like potentially Nachmamma8 subtly buddying pirate mollie in particular, and through that, the hydra read on him. I'm a little unsure about this point, but that was my initial reaction on reading that post.

So, anyway, I'd really like to see more votes on ArcAngel9 or Bulbazak. I really don't like what is coming across as Bulbazak white-knighting BeautyAndTheBeast.

I really think this is scum if you look at how Ryu falls off the map in DLG's final reads post. Town just don't forget about people who they are so strong regarding ie saying 'This guy needs a noose. Can't wait for the game to "officially" start so we can "quick-lynch" scum.' then completely forgetting about them?

anyways sure lynch thad

VOTE: ThAd

[Slandaar]

slaandy, I asked you what your opinion was on rena's claim

I said something like I don't see how it fits in the setup as town, but then ThAd said; Why would Blue have a ninja if Town doesn't have a watcher??? and I replied, well there is this team called redscum who can make the ninja useful... oh wait you are redscum who knows they don't have a watcher making Rena town. Thanks ThAd!

[Slandaar]

KK Bacde is town just trust in Slandaar

ThAd is redscum.

And if its not obvious I knew the case on PV wasn't on ThAd, I was looking into potential bluescum and noticed it so posted it and I think its a good case.

[Slandaar]

The case on ThAd is very simple; he doesn't consider redscum in his analysis.

Thats it, very simple, but very brilliant.

[Slandaar]

Why can't we just lynch ThAd?

[Slandaar]

Do you think I'm that much of a fucking idiot that if I was redscum I would forget to pretend to consider them in my analysis? Give me some credit please.

I give you your credit.

So, now I consider you town.

But, if you were town I don't think your analysis would forget redscum so often I mean afterall I gave you credit to be good as scum so I must do the same as town.

Now I think you are scum again.

Didn't help you much.

[Slandaar]

Sure lets lynch AK although not explicitly stating it they have done the same omgus thing with me. Not enough scumreads and I also don't like how Mara said something like 'everyone reading Mala town but im part of this hydra too!' its like she wanted credit for playing scum while looking town.

VOTE: AK

[Slandaar]

Well my PV case was pretty good I thought; hes most likely the bluescum.

AK is red or town not blue.

[Slandaar]

Multiball is completely different to a one scum team game most people's posting will improve drastically in multiball as scum.

[Slandaar]

Well my PV case was pretty good I thought; hes most likely the bluescum.

AK is red or town not blue.

Did you even vote for PeregrineV?

(Answer:

No

)

Are you making a point of some kind?

[Slandaar]

okay so slaandar does a 180 on ak cos he is sheeping dead thor's read. okay fine, that's good, I will follow up on dead player's reads too. but he gets sticky with it but isn't explaining why.

Why would I do that if we are buddies again?

a more natural reaction would be to feel a bit unsure about their own read especially since was basically a sheep vote

So, the meta links were to defend them so I said;

but he didn't, he said, "oh multi-ball drastically improves your posting"

ie they are irrelevant here and that is why. I have meta on them to some degree and Mala's posting has been a ton better than what I saw of her as scum which is why I had them as town D1 and forgot to review when it was revealed multiball, I reviewed when I decided AK made the most sense to kill Thor hence vote start of today; the main reason being they don't have enough scumreads, but who gonna sheep that? so I don't bother explaining till KK makes case.

[Slandaar]

Nacho - red ryu and nacho argued, red ryu pushed the wagon on nacho pretty much all day 1. Although I have done that as scum partners before, I would say that gives nacho some non-bluescum points (<- happy slandaar?).

Why are you voting Nacho if these are your findings? Nothing here suggests scum all it says is 'well hes probably not blue...'

At least try to pretend you are town ThAd.

[Slandaar]

Lets just lynch PV; hes scum; look at my case I made a while back it was good.

VOTE: PV

[Slandaar]

The thing about that case is that Seanald can't be bluescum because Rena or penguin is already bluescum. Aside from that though, it's solid and I will consider pursuing that avenue tomorrow/if this wagon falls apart.

How is Rena Bluescum again?

anyways

VOTE: ThAd

Lets lynch this guy hes not town.

[Slandaar]

Why would Khan be setting up mislynches in multiball?

Doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Slandaar]

Ceph you think bluescum have a watcher with their ninja?

[Slandaar]

This gameday needs to end

VOTE: Sean

[Slandaar]

Lets just lynch Rena...

Rena is obviously scum 'IMMA PR YOU GUIZ LOOK I HAZ BREADCRUMBS I NO DO ANYTHING ELSE THO LOLOLOLOL'. I mean wow, 'ohhhhhh we can't lynch claimed PR gotta test da claim!' no you don't shes scum you just lynch her.

Who actually believes town has all the power claimed so far plus whatever is left? Of course noone does; Rena is scum.

I'm not feeling an AK scum.

It seems too easy.

I could easily see Seanald as scum ie lurking through most of the days to the extent I forget he's actually playing this game, coming in to bandwagon that sort of thing.

Why isn't Sean 'too easy?'

Scum has been found.

VOTE: Rena

[Slandaar]

Bulba is scum yes, he doesn't do anything, he posts a lot but he doesn't achieve anything with them; he posts and posts and what is the best argument he has made? 'You can't think a scumread has confirmation Bias'

Tell me one thing he has done other than that, you can't, hes scum.

[Slandaar]

Bulba is scum yes, he doesn't do anything, he posts a lot but he doesn't achieve anything with them; he posts and posts and what is the best argument he has made? 'You can't think a scumread has confirmation Bias'

Tell me one thing he has done other than that, you can't, hes scum.

This case is weak and is evidence that you are not reading the game.

Oh? Do answer my question then if my case is so weak; what have you done?

Perhaps I missed all the scumhunting you have been doing. How can one write so many walls and achieve so little with them?

[Slandaar]

I've been pushing Nero as scum since the end of d1 based on his deflection.

Have you?

Could have fooled me, I don't remember you pushing a wagon on him let me check your vote on him...

If Bacde was independently scummy there would be nothing preventing him from being redscum. He just isn't. And being wrong is not a scumtell in and of itself.

Can you explain this?

Mala's tantrum and the followup by Mara feel very town to me, which is the first time since d1 that they have been townreading so strongly. I'm not sure I buy their Khan case, but I'd like to see how this plays out first. Going to go with the vote I had originally before I was convinced by Desperado to join the wagon.

Vote Nero Cain

This is a good wagon.

P-edit: They just felt thrown together at the last minute. You were also not up to date on Cephrir or PV, which showed in how you couldn't give a coherent read on them. I also found it strange that you would have so many nulls at this point in the game. This shows that you're clearly not reading the game as closely as you should.

Sure were pushing that wagon eh?!

Good work Bulbazak!

I've been pushing Seanald as scum since at least the end of d1 based on him staying on the sidelines and stirring the pot.

Have you?

Well if you could link me to the part where you make a case on him, make an argument to try and convince someone else hes scum or link me to where you made a nice coherent post to him or regarding him that wasn't a tiny snippet hidden within a wall that would be very useful.

I've been questioning Ffullisade on them dodging Thor's questions.

Questioning. What have you done with your questioning? what was the end result of it? Nothing.

I've asked about the motivations behind various players' posts, most recently AA9's.

Very good!

Need I go on?

No, please don't I have heard enough.

Bulbazak does nothing, he may ask questions he may look like he is interacting and scumhunting but the fact is nothing ever results from what he says. This is the meaning of doing nothing.

[Slandaar]

I see you have not been reading the thread Bulbazak.

[Slandaar]

Yes, conveniently leave out and forget the fact that I have been arguing with Nero and calling him scum for his deflection since the end of d1, and am still doing so. Good job Scumdaar.

That isn't pushing a wagon on him. Exactly my point; wall wars with no end product.

that wasn't a tiny snippet hidden within a wall that would be very useful.

Spoiler: Scumhunting Seanald

Scumslips don't exist 9 out of 10 times and I think your reaching pretty bad.

How am I reaching? Can you not see the point I have been making? And if so, what is bad about it? Also, how about you join us and give your own thoughts and opinions on what's happening, instead of taking potshots from the sidelines.

Need this addressed:

Scumslips don't exist 9 out of 10 times and I think your reaching pretty bad.

How am I reaching? Can you not see the point I have been making? And if so, what is bad about it? Also, how about you join us and give your own thoughts and opinions on what's happening, instead of taking potshots from the sidelines.

I don't like you popping your head in, making a potshot at someone, and then lurking back into the shadows and ignoring anything asked of you. Get in here and scumhunt, or tomorrow I'll lead the crap out of your wagon!

so just based off of Syr's reads, Desp,Red, and AA9(based on his comment) are switched into the scum pile. and baby spice and bacde join the null to scum pile.
theres more to read based off of syrs reads switching but I honestly can't keep it all in my head.

after isoing Syr I can believe that Red killed syr, but if he did why did his team let him? at that point Red was a pretty good bussing option so why kill a person gunning for his death? unless Syr's reads were just retardedly accurate and the scum team got scared of him.

Actually, you avoided talking about Syryana's later reads. I believe the 2 that he was advocating as scum, besides Ryu and Oversoul, at the end of d1 were Cephrir and Baby Spice/penguin_soldier. I'll have to go back and double check on penguin though, and also I need to remind myself what his stance on Desperado was.

All that being said, what you gave us was pure IIoA. Who do you think is scum based off of Syryana's reads?

@Seanald: This still needs to be answered:

Who do you think is scum based off of Syryana's reads?

up for a cephrir wagon as well if anyone wants to get that bitch rollin back up

Do you actually have a case on him, or is this you continuing to sit on the sidelines and keeping your hands from actually getting dirty?

UNVOTE: ceph

VOTE: AK

yeah sorry I just can't stand cry babies.

I mean I get the feeling that what your doing now is very frustrated town flailing but, your just too annoying for me right now, if you can calm down and start doing things logically I'll probably take this vote off.

Can't believe that I forgot to address this yesterday, especially since I reacted to it so negatively. Anybody who knows me should understand why I hate this. I don't care for policy lynches, especially when there's so much more to talk about. It's a lazy way to push a lynch and avoid any responsibility later.

UNVOTE: AK

the vote wasn't personal AK, i just have a self-made zero tolerance rule for people freaking out, its just unnecessary, but you've explained your self well and back in mah town reads.

Desp I understand your case on me, but I honestly thinking your reaching for connections, you could probably go through the whole player list and do exactly what you did on me to everyone else, or even make the arguement that those without any interactions with bluescum what so ever are most likely blue scum, its all just not very concrete.

I was also surprised to see this case just randomly pop up from you, after you were saying I was likely town. maybe saying that spurred you to Iso me and take a second look which I can see, but considering your my neighbor I'd rather us work together on things,

so what questions do you want answered from me? or how can we work this out together because your a pretty concrete town read for me and I don't want to see the extra communication we get go to waste, even though we've probably been wasting it up to this point lol.

Town pacification

and

buddying.

That was a lot of quotes which were pointless. A for effort though! Lots of little points hidden within walls do not achieve anything.

I've been pointing out his lurking and stirring the pot since d1. On d2, he did some IIoA on Syryana's posts and didn't actually come to a conclusion on who was scum until after I pressured him on it. Then after his horrible AK vote and unvote, I actually voted him, which came at the end of that last post. What more did you want? For me to pray to the great and powerful Mastin and have all scum magically revealed to us?

Magically make a case on him or push a wagon on him before he is the rabbit in the headlights?

But I admit you pointing out his lurking is very useful noone else would have spotted it so well done Bulbazak!

Since when did I become Superman? Thor spent 2 days questioning them and arguing with them on the same subject, and somehow you expect

me

to magically convince the town that Thor was right and that they should vote Ffullisade, when even

he

couldn't do it? Speaking of which, I'm assuming you reconsidered some things after Thor's flip. What are your thoughts on the argument that he pushed so hard, and why haven't you acted on your revised take on the game?

I can't do anything! Thor couldn't so what could I do?!!!!! I am so helpless! I remember this attitude from you earlier its a good reason I know you are scum.

I have acted.

Which is ironic, coming from the guy who has sat on the sidelines and not even scumhunted. All you've done is throw out an occasional comment and call someone scum. That's not scumhunting. That's going through the motions. And then you have the audacity to try to claim someone else, who has put more effort into finding scum than you, mind you, and has tried to ascertain other player's motivations, is not scumhunting.

Oh?

I made a very very good case on ThAd
I made a very good case on PV
I made a very good case on you
I made a very good case on Rena

Were you trying to make a point? Oh that you do more than me... you don't. As can be seen by the way you don't post productively just walls and walls of noise.

[Slandaar]

I didn't say you are lurking more like you are posting a lot of manufactured noise. We will leave it at that for now Bulbazak.

[Slandaar]

Don't see the point.

[Slandaar]

Okay, here's the plan. I'm assuming that town has a protective role of some sort.

Well we have Rena the town Watcher

Wait a second...

[Slandaar]

I think we should just lynch Renascum and move on to day 4.

[Slandaar]

but the slot claimed to has power. Half this player base won't lynch that and there's like no momentum.

Why are you not voting Bulb but calling him scum?

Unfortunately the mod did not provide me with the power to vote as many different people as I would like. Or were you asking me a question already answered?

[Slandaar]

Watcher is an investigative role, not a protective role.

Nu-uh!

You target the same as all other protection roles do; by trying to target who scum will kill.

[Slandaar]

Town
CrashTextDummie
ffullisade [hydra]
Kublai Khan (Rondar)
Bacde (roflcopter)
ArcAngel9
ThAdmiral (ActionDan, Hanzo_5)
Human Destroyer (Om the Destroyer [hydra])
Nero Cain
Nachomamma8
Seanald
penguin_alien (Baby Spice)
Desperado
Amethyst Kitty [hydra]
Cephrir
Bulbazak
PeregrineV (DLG)
Rena(/Haylen) (fuzzybutternut)
Scum

Assume 4 Bluescum; PV/Desperado
Assume 4 Redscum: Rena/Bulba/Ceph/AK

Sums up my thoughts.

[Slandaar]

Slandaar, why would we assume 8 scum?

I think PV/Desp are buddies and they work very well on blue.

Don't feel like explaining it right now though.

Only makes sense to assume the highest number possible anyways...

Slandaar, did your opinion of Seanald change between this and your most recent town-to-scum list?

Not really.

If you seriously think I'm scum with Rena, Sland, you may need your head examined.

Kay

Note to self: bus hard in games with Ceph.

[Slandaar]

Slaandar is scum as well, due to the 8 scum comment.

Do amuse me with your explanation.

[Slandaar]

You never explained why you think there are 8 scum in this game.

I did actually.

The typical scum to town ratio is 1:3, which would make the number of scum in this game 6. Using that logic, there would be 3 scum per team in a multiball situation, which we seem to be in. However, you assume that there is 4. The only way I could see anyone coming to this conclusion is if they were on a scum team and

knew

that there were 4 players on the team, which means that they would anticipate 8 scum. Therefore, your statement stating that there are 4 on each team is a scumslip.

4 is a completely reasonable proposition. Always best to assume the worst scenario ie the most scum possible there is no negative side effects where with assuming lower numbers there can be.

This post shows complete naivety

probs, I was thinking the same thing. Thez also suggested "7-8 scum".

Which is an excuse Nero doesn't have. Right scum?

I think you are missing the point.

If Ryu was that obvious he would have been lynched.

So, why do you think every redscum would think Ryu was scum?

My thoughts from the vote history:
Red Ryu was either killed because Red Mafia was looking to kill Blue Mafia, or Red Mafia wanted to get rid of a strong townie.
The fact that his wagon got to 6(?) votes at one point means he couldn't have been too townie, so he was probably killed while being scumhunted by Red Mafia.

If not Seanald, then Slandaar.

Vote: Slandaar

Guess I better go check if he answered my neighbor question back somewhere.

Nice job, I do not know your point but you took my quote so far out of context it is ridiculous.

FF: Well I think Bacde isn't redscum because he didn't suspect Ryu
Sland: That doesn't mean anything; not all redscum had to suspect Ryu.

Because dismissing something on that line of reasoning is absurd.

What was your point PV?

I get the sense that he's a better scumhunter than he is displaying in this game. It's almost like he's putting in enough effort for it to look like he's scumhunting at a glance, but for the most part he's trying to stay out of the town's eye.

I have said who the scum are I can't force people to vote them. Tell me why you are not voting Rena who is the most obvious scum I have ever seen? Perhaps you can direct me to her amazing scumhunting or perhaps give me a reason she is not just scum coasting on her PR claim?

Do explain why you townread her one more time, I must have missed it previously.

Slandaar contradicted himself in post 4444 he refers to me as the town watcher and then puts me at the top of his scumlist in post 4557. Which is it? I could definitely see Cephir as scum.

Good point, why didn't you vote me?

Oh Wait...

(It wasn't a good point I was clearly not being serious about Rena being town in 4444)

[Slandaar]

So your reason when previously asked about it was that you thought PV and Desp. were on a scumteam together, even though they are both in separate neighborhoods in a normal game? And the reasoning for that was, "I have reasoning, but I don't feel like saying what it is and backing up my absurd accusation which I just made up."? Yeah, not buying it.

Uh, yes?

Why can't 2 bluescum be in 2 different neighbourhoods Bulba?

I have reasoning actually... Desp made case on DLG, his best contribution of the Day which he dropped without ever revisiting he also made some weak accusations towards Ryu without following up. DLG made case on Ryu and was adamant to lynch Ryu (see previous case) but dropped it without a word. Then PV comes in and voted Oversoul D1 out of the blue over Desp; PV who doesn't like to bus.

Its like a beautiful trifecta of bluescum.

Actually, it's in town's best interest to assume the best case scenario, i.e. Shaheed's Law, and in the event that we're wrong, we can always recalibrate on the fly. Scum tends to congregate on preparing for the town's worst case scenario, since that is what they need in order to win. Therefore, assume 1 team until it becomes evident that it's multiball, and assume a ratio of 1:3 until it becomes evident that you're wrong. Scum will react in the opposite way, and then we can catch them and lynch them.

Ugh it really doesn't matter than much its such a pointless thing to argue, if you assume the higher number you avoid issues later. That is literally the only difference so its better. There is no reason to assume 3/3 instead of 4/4. I have lots of scum reads and they fit nicely in 4/4 so I assume 4 its just logical.

I think it's funny that you have been calling me scum all game for saying something similar, and then when you are called out on doing little scumhunting, your reasoning is, "Well, I can't make people do anything.".

I have done plenty of scumhunting thanks, but after making a case and showing someone is scum what more can one do? Rewrite the case with pretty colours?

You on the other hand don't make cases you just argue innane things repetedly. Huge difference.

Her posts have felt genuine and have given me an overall town feel. I have never understood the case on her, and whenever I asked people to elaborate on it, they refused to do so. As far as I understand, it's based on Fuzzy's early posts, which are taken out of context given the nature of ISOs. If anybody has anything more than that, I'd like to hear it.

Well heres a case, between Fuzzy and Rena they have managed to do a total of zero scumhunting. Rena managed more posts as breadcrumb posts and talk about watcher than actual content posts. I mean its pretty obvious she is scum coasting.

You are her buddy though so I understand why you don't vote her.

[Slandaar]

Ceph you are such a scumbag.

[Slandaar]

Why can't 2 bluescum be in 2 different neighbourhoods Bulba?

Because it would be unbalanced and give them an advantage over both town and the other team.

Scumslip

[Slandaar]

How does Bulb know red don't have 2 scum in hoods?

Its like you are redscum Bulb

[Slandaar]

There is no reason hoods cant be 2/2/2 or generated completely randomly.

Nice try though.

The suggestion is, then, that Bulb has scumslipped the knowledge that there aren't 4 scum neighbors out of 6 neighbors, in a normal game...

Get real.

Hi Bulbas buddy.

He scumslipped there are not 2 redscum in hoods; not there are not 4 scum neighbours.

[Slandaar]

He is arguing there can't be 2 bluescum in the hoods because

Because it would be unbalanced

and give them an advantage over both town and the other team

.

It would be unfair on poor redscum.

And how could he know that?

[Slandaar]

How is Rena still alive?

[Slandaar]

Rena is still alive? lol. How is it possible?

Slandaar never answered why he is contradicting his own read on me.

Hey Guys! I have read the thread now and Slandaar didn't respond to me so I am going to vote him!

Slandaar contradicted himself in post 4444 he refers to me as the town watcher and then puts me at the top of his scumlist in post 4557. Which is it? I could definitely see Cephir as scum.

Good point, why didn't you vote me?

Oh Wait...

(It wasn't a good point I was clearly not being serious about Rena being town in 4444)

What? Where did this come from??! I swear I read the thread!!!

No! I have opinions on other things too! I just didn't mention them yet I will get right on that!

If you're planning on fake claiming cop, it wont work. Insane cop is not a normal role.

If Ceph claimed cop guilty on me he would have a legitimate result because I am investigated as scum! But he would be fake claiming! oh definitely a fakeclaim!

---

Here is my wagon broken down

PV: I am voting Slandar because he has caught me.
Bulbazak: I am voting Slandaar because lol 4 scum. I make lots of assumptions too that make no sense but 4 scum? die.
Rena: Gotta save my buddy Bulbazak! Hope noone looks into my reasoning though! Also Slandaar has caught me.
AK: Well Gotta get rid of Slandaar he caught 2 of my buddies and Me!

Sums up things adequately.

And somehow Rena isn't being lynched today, its just ridiculous.

[Slandaar]

Here is my wagon broken down

PV: I am voting Slandar because he has caught me.
Bulbazak: I am voting Slandaar because lol 4 scum. I make lots of assumptions too that make no sense but 4 scum? die.
Rena: Gotta save my buddy Bulbazak! Hope noone looks into my reasoning though! Also Slandaar has caught me.
AK: Well Gotta get rid of Slandaar he caught 2 of my buddies and Me!

Sums up things adequately.

So people start to see you as scummy, and your first reaction is to call everyone on your wagon scum?

Uh good try but I had them all as scum long ago you can see it in my reads post but go further back shall we?

I made a case on PV today
I voted AK with a case today
I want to lynch obvscum Rena

And then there is you who has been in my scumlist all game.

Don't you find that even remotely suspicious?

Vote Rena

You should probbly claim also.

[Slandaar]

Gears of War mafia - 21 players, two scum teams, 6 scum, 29%
NY 143 - 21 players, two scum teams, 6 scum, 29%

Not a single one has 33% scum. If anything I think 7 scum with

unbalanced scum teams!!!

is probably the most likely, as almost every game falls between somewhere between 1/3 and 1/4. 7 falls right into that sweet spot at 29%.

These are the only 2 relevant as they are the only multiball; so what you have done here is inevitably pointless

[Slandaar]

32

[Slandaar]

Sample size of 2 means nothing and then sk/scum is completely different to multiball

[Slandaar]

Anyways I am a VT obviously. If Bulba claims anything other than VT at this point then hes scum and that should be pretty clear.

So, whatever, I am not moving my vote off Rena as that clearly should have been the lynch, won't be around for deadline.

And no I am not summing up our qt its not worth my time.

[Slandaar]

You didn't flip Nacho.

I think you put too much pressure on yourself regarding the flavor.