NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Kublai Khan]

Hi. Stand by.

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: Beauty and the Beast
Reason: This is a bloated game and you have the most posts.

Page five and reading.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay I've read up to page 16 and will continue tomorrow. Happy with my vote, and now I have an actual reason for it. Also have some other suspects.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay I've read up to page 16 and will continue tomorrow. Happy with my vote, and now I have an actual reason for it. Also have some other suspects.

Does this mean I can start belittling you for your obvious ineptitude at this game?

That'd be the most likely response.

From just what I've read so far, you've been aggressively attacking anyone who disagrees and/or suspects you. Which is a survival strategy, not a scum-hunting one.

It's also an effective two-pronged strategy for scum to take. You become unlikely to be lynched Day 1 because townies don't have enough confidence in their reads to match your aggression and later in the game you've posted so much that it's too much work to build a case on you.

So feel free to rail against my sole vote as if it's an atrocity that must be lambasted into submission. But it shouldn't convince anyone that you're town.

[Kublai Khan]

Congratulations, you figured out how Majiffy plays regardless of alignment!

My attacks garner reactions. Which give me accurate reads. So it is

entirely

scum-hunting.

Your argument that it is "an effective two-pronged strategy for scum to take" is moot because it holds the same strength of a strategy as town.

No, town strategy isn't to survive, it's to find and lynch scum before they out-number town.

I'm still reading, but so far the only people you've called scum are the ones who dared question your questionable play and/or called you scum. Your "attacks" have been strictly retaliatory, which means you aren't attempting to garner reactions.

[Kublai Khan]

No, town strategy isn't to survive, it's to find and lynch scum before they out-number town.

Being unlynchable as town is just as effective as finding scum in the early game. And, for the most part, generally more accurate - I can be certain of my own alignment. I may read others wrong. I have the stronger position here; I suggest you check yourself before you wreck yourself.

No. Scum kill unlynchable townies. There's no advantage to your playstyle if your town.

I'm still reading, but so far the only people you've called scum are the ones who dared question your questionable play and/or called you scum. Your "attacks" have been strictly retaliatory, which means you aren't attempting to garner reactions.

Most of those "questioning [of my] questionable play" was retaliatory to my reads on

them

. You've got your history a little backwards.

No, I don't.

And while you're at it; why don't you explain what is so questionable about my play?

I already have been.

[Kublai Khan]

No, town strategy isn't to survive, it's to find and lynch scum before they out-number town.

Being unlynchable as town is just as effective as finding scum in the early game. And, for the most part, generally more accurate - I can be certain of my own alignment. I may read others wrong. I have the stronger position here; I suggest you check yourself before you wreck yourself.

No. Scum kill unlynchable townies. There's no advantage to your playstyle if your town.

So a townie shouldn't be super-pro-town or obv-town as town because they'd be unlynchable and therefore it isn't advantageous?

Okay, there's three possibilities here. Either out of nowhere, I've decided to start arguing against every accepted mafia theory on proper town play and I'm calling for townies to not look town. -OR- You're deliberately twisting an argument for a very cheap attack. -OR- You're amazingly horrible at reading comprehension. Take your pick.

I've accused you of having a survivalist attitude in this game. You've answered that being unlynchable helps you find scum. Your answer reveals to me that you may be too stupid to comprehend what I'm trying to say. So let me ask you some questions:

Do you understand the concept that a random mafioso has a more pressing need to survive than a random townie? (Completely ignoring power roles at this point)

Do you understand that scum can easily imitate an attitude of "I know I'm town and you're probably scum for suggesting otherwise"? Do you understand that it is unhelpful for town

No, I don't.

I'm sure you can back this up with quotes that won't be subsequently refuted by my own proof, right?

The one the really stuck out to me was Post 299. DLG made some good points about some inconsistent behavior and poor reading comprehension on your part and asked some clarification questions. Your response was to put him on your "shitlist" and list him as scum in the subsequent post. Do you feel that that was appropriate townie behavior? Did you understand his questions?

[Kublai Khan]

WAIT WAIT WAIT

did OS claim that his informed townie fakeclaim was a "reaction test"?

Post 820

[Kublai Khan]

Is Vegito -> Majiffy of BeautyandtheBeast?

I fucking hate hydras.

multiball?

The fuck does this mean?

Bacde can't envision a scenario where Oversoul and Nachomamma8 are scum together. So he's wondering if they are seperately scum on two different teams.

It's funny because I'm currently on Page 36 and I'm wondering why there is almost 30 more pages and no current votes on Oversoul.

[Kublai Khan]

Nacho isn't playing to "out his reads" or "find scum" this game, he's manipulating people (and he can do it with one word even as shown w/ the pride post)

Something is off. Oversoul did a retarded "gambit", then was lazy and didn't follow the game, then posted a useless "analysis" post. Then immediately makes a soft-claim about the dangers of vigging him.

Your case on Nachomamma8 is decent. Maybe even lynch worthy. But if he's scum, then where is the scum-led counter-wagon on Oversoul, who has been far scummier?

Either Nachomamma8 is scum with Oversoul, or scum are pushing along the Nachomamma8 wagon to try to get Oversoul to live another day.

If I were scum, I'd kill B&TB (nudge, nudge scum)

BTW - I'm legitimately pissed at you for asking me to replace into a game with Majiffy in it.

I have about 20 pages left to read before I'm caught up and I should have that done tomorrow.

[Kublai Khan]

No, a townie who really hasn't put as much effort as he should into the game

Yeah, that bugs me. People who do fake claim gambits don't lose interest in games. There was only about 3 days between your informed townie claim and your reveal that it was a gambit. And you posted 37 times in the interim.

At what point did you lose interest in this game?

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: Red Ryu

I've reached Page 59. This has been a tough mountain climb.

The Nachomamma8 wagon is a bad wagon. I mean, really bad. Now that I have a fuller grasp of the entire events of this game, it's mind-blowingly bad that Nachomamma8 is the biggest wagon right now. Everyone on the wagon (minus Bacde) needs to justify themselves right now.

Also: Is DLG V/LA? Why has he gone 10 days without a post?

<<< Because the mod is a derp.
DLG was prodded Friday, but had until today, Monday, to post. That time has expired, without a DLG post, and thus, DLG will be replaced. Again, my sincere apologies for the moderator oversight. >>>

[Kublai Khan]

Have you EVER pressured someone to follow reads that you aren't happy with?

Weren't you just doubting your Nachomamma8 read a couple of pages ago?

You've literally parked your vote and have been ignoring the rest of the game (see: Oversoul's claim). Regardless of whether your right or wrong on Nachomamma8, what's your plan for reading everyone else? Are you going to go back and actually read the game or just wait to be lead by the nose?

I received A LOT more people defending my claim than I expected which I find strange as hell considering everything.

I really like this post. Which of your Nacho/OS scenarios do you think is more likely?

Not scum together. The following isn't the interactions of buddies:

Although this is the only thing that you are commenting on now that I have basically confirmed your suspicions that the claim was a lie?

hell no, i'm still revelling in that. I'm gonna post in other games first tho.

I don't remember. Probably waiting for everyone to comment is what killed it for me.

I received A LOT more people defending my claim than I expected which I find strange as hell considering everything.

It is an addiction Baby Spice. You haven't lived on the wild side until you've done it.

In no particular order:
Not willing to lynch Day 1: EddieFenix, Slandaar, Bulbazak, Cephrir, CrashTextDummie, Syryana, Bacde, Nachomamma8
Very willing to lynch Day 1: Red Ryu, Oversoul, Amethyst Kitty, Baby Spice

[Kublai Khan]

Huh. Oversoul vote got left off after the triple Oversoul quote. Oversoul is lying out his ass. He needs rope.

VOTE: Oversoul

[Kublai Khan]

Oversoul:

Fake claim gambit.
Plenty of activity.
Retracted claim.
Slow on analysis.
Analysis given is poor and superficial.
Claims boredom and disinterest due to waiting for responses.
Posted that he got a lot of response and that he enjoys the thrill of gambitting.
Soft-claiming that he shouldn't be vigged.

[Kublai Khan]

Are you going to go back and actually read the game or just wait to be lead by the nose?

has my play this game indicated to you that I am trying to be led by the nose?

It's not.

If we don't lynch Nachomamma8 today, you'll be beating the war drums tomorrow.
If we do lynch Nachomamma8 today, you'll... just go off whatever is posted Day 2?

My point is, you're not reading much outside your tunnel. If you had a broader game read, I might trust your Nachomamma8 case more. But as of right now, it's mostly confirmation bias.

[Kublai Khan]

Who wrote the second quote?

[Kublai Khan]

Fuzzy is claiming to have only read 3 pages. Why can't we kill that?

The reaction to the fake modkill looked town to me.

Scum are more likely to clam up and see what the fallout is.

If you really want a fuzzybutternut lynch. Post a better case.

[Kublai Khan]

Majiffy posted that on his regular account...which is why it read forced to me. I don't see how anyone paying attention could have legitimately thought someone was dead, and multiple players immediately jumped on him for being stupid. Are they all scum?

I will lend a hand in hanging: DLG (if he doesn't get replaced), Nacho, AA9, Cephrir, OS, and fuzzy.

Red is typically a mod color (and is one of mastin2's colors but only apparently inside the <> things). And Majiffy fucks up account posting regularly. I see it as possible. Jumping on Majiffy for being stupid is a nulltell.

If we don't lynch Nachomamma8 today, you'll be beating the war drums tomorrow.
If we do lynch Nachomamma8 today, you'll... just go off whatever is posted Day 2?

ftr, this looks like you know bc will flip town
as in you won't be nking him

For fuck's sake. Are you seriously calling me scummy while sheeping my vote? Can you fence sit any fucking harder?

Obviously, if bacde gets night-killed if a moot question.

Why Kublai, AK, Slandaar?

Kublai hasn't really posted anything that makes me think "strong town". I've seen some points that I've liked, but as far as his offense on pushing scum goes, there hasn't really been anything amazing.

Comment on my Oversoul case please.

[Kublai Khan]

@KK - c'mon back, pl0x, Oversoul is more likely town from that gak than scum, seriously.

Red Ryu is in my willing to lynch list. But my suspicion of Oversoul being scum is stronger.

My ears are open, though. Make the case that Oversoul is town or make a stronger case that Red Ryu is scum (succinctness preferred).

[Kublai Khan]

This isn't what I was saying, so let me make this clear:

1) Majiffy is in the B&TB hydra
2) Majiffy isn't a mod of this game
3) Majiffy is the one who posted in red lettering saying that someone had been modkilled
4) Fuzzy thought that a non-mod posting on his regular account that someone had been modkilled was legitimate
5) Several people jumped on

fuzzy

for being stupid.

You said that you felt Fuzzy's reaction to the fake modkill was town, but he was the only one who thought it was anything other than a joke, so how does that reconcile?

Moderators have the power to edit user posts. mastin2 in particular enjoys doing so quite a bit.

It's been my experience that scum generally hold back and try to properly understand a game situation before rushing forth. So they can pick the reaction that gives them the best advantage. Town doesn't. So fuzzybutternut blurting out an unfiltered ignorant reaction is a town-tell.

@KK - You want me to believe that it is a huge scumtell that Oversoul is trying to drop hints that he shouldn't be nightkilled? Now, there are, off the top of my head, probably 3-4 nightkills likely to happen in this game. 2-3 are likely to be scum nightkills.
Just, y'know, saying.
The rest of the 'case' on him is, he was active during a period he admitted to enjoying (fake claim), he went into a slump during a period he didn't enjoy (no fake claim), and has now returned to an act that he clearly enjoyed (claim hint - which is really another value of fakeclaim). I don't care to debate whether or not you think what he's doing is pro town (I *really* don't want to defend it) But I fail to see either a scum agenda or even a fake agenda there. He clearly likes the interplay and attention and is playing in that manner. I'll agree his reads from it suck, but I see people get excited about doing things that get sucky reads all the time as town...so...?

Well, it matters because the fakeclaim reveal reads like a giant backtrack on a bad fakeclaim. Then there is massive stalling while he tries to provide an analysis that end up being veeeery similar to CrashTextDummie's massclaim analysis (like, obviously copied homework). So you can tack on a charge of "no scum-hunting" and "looking busy, doing nothing" to the laundry list.

Follow-up question: You had the option of attacking the Oversoul case or presenting a Red Ryu case. Why did you chose the former and provide nothing on the latter?

[Kublai Khan]

So now we're accussing Oversoul of not being good at the game...I don't disagree that his contributions have been weak, but are they scummy? I mean, is semi-sheeping CTD scummy now?

He didn't sheep CrashTextDummie. He just copied the format. CrashTextDummie did a reaction test and had a clear general idea of how to interpret the results. There was logic. Oversoul made the lists, then.. uh.. just kinda trailed... off with no conclusion. It wasn't a reaction test, it was a backpedal. He's scum.

Spoiler: <<< Mod-edited-votecount >>>

Nachomamma8 - 8 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Slandaar, Seanald, CrashTextDummie, Om the Destroyer, Baby Spice)

fuzzybutternut - 3 (thezmon221, Cephrir, Oversoul)

ArcAngel9 - 3 (DLG, Syryana, Desperado)
Oversoul - 2 (Kublai Khan, BeautyAndTheBeast)
Red Ryu - 2 (ArcAngel9, Thor665)
Bacde - 1 (Bulbazak)
Desperado - 1 (Nachomamma8)
Om the Destroyer - 1 (fuzzybutternut)

Not Voting - 3 (Hanzo_5, EddieFenix, Amethyst Kitty)

With

24

players alive, it's

13

to lynch.

[Kublai Khan]

He didn't sheep CrashTextDummie. He just copied the format.

So...copying the format is scummy now?
You issue is that he didn't have good analysis - why did you even bring CTD into it?

Because it shows that he never intended it as a reaction test.

Oversoul posted his analysis after some people started mentioning him, so he obviously went "Oh, fuck. I have to do an analysis. Oh hey, CrashTextDummie did one, let me just copy that."

I don't like KK bringing up a reason for voting OS when that reason is what got him a whole lot of pressure to be built onto him in the first place. feels like he's looking to bring the pressure back onto town with old reasons rather than new ones.

Nice, you've either barely read my case and/or you're dismissing it without any due consideration. And I'm on your scumlist now for making a case (OMGUS!).

Please, don't actually explain anything. Keep it vague so you can quickly change your opinion later with no consequence.

Tell me though, why were you so against cop-directing, but not vig-directing?

I once sheeped nacho for an entire game when I knew he was scum.

true story. I was trying to figure out who his partner was

pretty sure you are scum kubbles. I bet thor thinks you are too

speaking of thor what is your read on him we need to preserve it for reasons of posterity

So you think I'm scum. And you think Thor665 is scum. And you think that Thor665 thinks that I am scum. Link me to a scum-game. I've actually got you down as "too stupid to be scum" and I want to double check.

I'm non-committal on Thor665. The game is too noisy to get a definite read on him. He's been doing too much one-on-one absolute fucking minutia circular arguments of crap. He's jsut deconstructing other people's arguments instead of making his own. It's counter-productive as hell. I'd get more of a town feeling if he just gave reads and pursued wagons.

Actually, thinking and writing the above, Thor665 is on the scummier side.

also I guess this is multiball since thor said there will 3 to 4 nks we really need to pay attention to this cos it changes the dynamics

Wait, where did Thor665 say this?

Khan give me your thought process why Nacho is a bad wagon and why people attacking him are scummy. I'm really not seeing why you voted me other than a semi chainsaw. I don't see where you head is at and why.

The Nachomamma8 wagon is being lead and championed by a tunnelling fanatic whose case is based strictly on meta, repetition, and "gotcha!" hypocrisies. After power-reading through the last 40 pages of this game, I really can't tell you the reasons why anybody but Bacde is voting Nachomamma8.

And you are scum because you did something I've only ever seen scum do, but if I say what it is people will say it's a personality thing.

[Kublai Khan]

Eugh, he likes autotune more than T-Pain Swift.

Oh i am obviously not comparing this kid with taylor swift, she is amazing!!
I just appreciate his work. he is very talented and remake stuff is good especially when you know the songs

Can this conversation/distraction stop now?

[Kublai Khan]

Khan, give me more substance than that, why are you afraid to out your reason?

It's your first three posts. You joked about being a scum role, then continued the joke for two more posts. I can't fully explain why (which bugs me), but I've caught scum on that tell.


@someone on the Desperado wagon: Can you summarize the scum-play? Something in the form of "he did X which is scummy because Y". No need for quotes, I'll ISO-read after work tonight.

[Kublai Khan]

@someone on the Desperado wagon: Can you summarize the scum-play? Something in the form of "he did X which is scummy because Y". No need for quotes, I'll ISO-read after work tonight.

Bulbasaur

: You do this.

[Kublai Khan]

@someone on the Desperado wagon: Can you summarize the scum-play? Something in the form of "he did X which is scummy because Y". No need for quotes, I'll ISO-read after work tonight.

Bulbasaur

Bulbazak

: You do this.

[Kublai Khan]

Hmm.

I decided to check Nacho's posting history just to see what was happening, and spotted him browsing this forum.

Make of that what you will.

Potshot when I'm gone for literally two days.

I'd be down for a Baby Spice lynch. That "potshot" is worse than you think since she's not actually voting for you at the time she made that post. It's literally a "oh hey, here's an extra reason to jump on the Nachomamma8 wagon in case anybody needs it" wagon push post.

<<< Fixed quote tags. >>>

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: Baby Spice

[Kublai Khan]

eta: kubbles why

I'm not answering to that name.

[Kublai Khan]

Kublai Khan why

Active lurking
Pushing a wagon that she's not on
Poor defense to accusations
Emotional manipulation

The second one is the big one for me.

[Kublai Khan]

can someone give me a tl;dr of the last 30 pages?

tl;dr - Some people suspect Nero Cain of being scum because he's skimming instead of scumhunting.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm skimming? ok, if I were skimming then I'd have no reason to ask for a tl;dr.

You've only read the number of pages. I'm floored at the shallowness of your reading.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm skimming? ok, if I were skimming then I'd have no reason to ask for a tl;dr.

You've only read the number of pages. I'm floored at the shallowness of your reading.

Actually, do read it, Nero Cain. Besides the first 30 pages, the last 30 pages have been the most important so far and features a lot of game shifts. They can't be summarized easily as there has been a lot of nuanced play.

[Kublai Khan]

I checked--we're the third-longest D1 ever on site, and counting. Yay, us?

What this means is that we need to quit dithering and decide on a lynch.

EddieFenix and Amethyst Kitty need to place a vote. Now.

ThAdmiral, PeregrineV, and penguin_alien are replacements and therefore get a grace period. But I encourage them to catch up and vote.

fuzzybutternut, Nero Cain, Slandaar, & BeautyAndTheBeast either need to make a very moving case to build their wagon, or move their vote.

Enough arguing. Let's lynch.

[Kublai Khan]

I checked--we're the third-longest D1 ever on site, and counting. Yay, us?

What this means is that we need to quit dithering and decide on a lynch.

EddieFenix and Amethyst Kitty need to place a vote. Now.

ThAdmiral, PeregrineV, and penguin_alien are replacements and therefore get a grace period. But I encourage them to catch up and vote.

fuzzybutternut, Nero Cain, Slandaar, & BeautyAndTheBeast either need to make a very moving case to build their wagon, or move their vote.

Enough arguing. Let's lynch.

Lynch the slot, not the player.

If the previous player was scummy, that slot is still scummy.

Good advice from the best mafia player I have ever played with.

You read it wrong. I'm saying that they have the only good reason for not having a vote on someone right now, but they need to rectify that as soon as possible.

[Kublai Khan]

May I request a summary of the Desparado/Nacho/Penguin cases with appropriate links ect.

Desperado:
Post 2112
Post 2115

Nachomamma8:
Post 2236

penguin_alien (formerly Baby Spice):
Post 2213

I also heartily suggest a wagon on Oversoul:
Post 1812

This game has an insanely long and unhelpful Day 1. I am trying to push people towards compromise lynchings.

[Kublai Khan]

Does anyone else fellow the desperado/thezmon/cephrir debate is kinda going nowhere?

[Kublai Khan]

Does anyone else fellow the desperado/thezmon/cephrir debate is kinda going nowhere?

Start talking about something else, then.

Maybe why you're still on the BS slot when there is support for your OS case.

Because I'm happy lynching either Oversoul or Baby Spice/penguin_alien. The latter wagon is much bigger than the former.

NOPE. I am not giving mafia ANY insight.

How about giving town some insight and actually VOTE for somebody?

[Kublai Khan]

Okay, so 4 days to deadline.

Slandaar is sitting on a wagon of 1, is asking someone else to champion his wagon, and makes more arguments against someone else (Bulbazak) than the person he is voting.

@Slandaar - Thor665 lynch isn't going to happen if that's your play. Bulbazak wagon isn't going to spring up out of nowhere with that weak ass shit. You are active lurking right now.

[Kublai Khan]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Oversoul

Le't do this.

[Kublai Khan]

....really all in one page right in a row, someone is scum here. I lean nacho/Cephrir most.

If you're going to make this (bad) point, why leave off the BeautyAndTheBeast vote? It followed the Cephrir vote and had the same general format {no other comment except vote}.

Why not include the other couple of votes on the same page?

its also likely multiball

How in the world can town make this assumption on Day 1?

Why did an OS wagon pop up?

He's been the scummiest player all game.

are we seriously Lynching OS? that dude is town as fuck.

If Oversoul flips town. Amethyst Kitty is definite scum. (calling a town flip while doing nothing to prevent it)

Vote Nero, People. There IS An OS Alternative.

Why do you do shit like this? You were voting Oversoul, then you jumped off and are promoting a counter-wagon. All of this without any post by Oversoul? WTF?

If you don't think Oversoul is scum, then why did you vote for him at all?

If you say that this is a hydra miscommunication thing, then one of you seriously needs to drop this game because this sort of shit is ridiculous.

Not defensive, I just have issues with people coming into page 99 of a game and trying to make an argument based on the first 10, acting like they're hot shit as they do.

Why? The first ten pages of the game are where scum are most exposed. They haven't started figuring out how to manipulate people yet.

[Kublai Khan]

How in the world can town make this assumption on Day 1?

Are you saying Nero isn't town? If so; why not vote him?
Are you saying Nero is dumbtown? If so; why so certain?

This question is just bad form whichever way you look at it.

PLEASE TELL ME MORE ABOUT HOW ONLY SCUM OR DUMBTOWN TALK ABOUT MULTIBALL ON DAY 1.

also I guess this is multiball since thor said there will 3 to 4 nks we really need to pay attention to this cos it changes the dynamics

You never did get around to explaining this. Should I just mark it down as a dodge?

If you're going to be a shithead, then walk away from this game. You've consistently been the one player(s) that pisses off people in this game.

[Kublai Khan]

Mods: If BB continues being an offensive asshole to everyone I'm replacing out.

Seconded.

[Kublai Khan]

Do you think Nero is town or not? Because your question can be read either one way or the other, and each one has it's own follow-up question attached to it.

Nero Cain isn't on my town list. Oversoul is far scummier and has a shot at being lynched.

I'm not moving my vote.

Mollie can answer her own statements.

Usual hydra bullshit.

Good, I look forward to both of you leaving and being replaced by players that actually

want to play the game

.

Mod: Replace Me

I play for fun, not to appease assholes.

[Kublai Khan]

Fine.

Mod: Belay that. I'll probably calm down later. But seriously, tell Majiffy to reign it the fuck in.

[Kublai Khan]

Its a 24 player game an current site meta suggest more than 1 killing faction. 6 scum seems the ideal number, weather its a 5 man scum team and a sk or two 3 man scum teams.

But all of Slandaar, Bcade and Bulb have speculated that its multiball as well. Why is this a sin for me but not them?

+ why am I not on your town list?

Technically you broke the multiball cherry in Post 1377. Also, the big difference is that you wrote

likely

multiball whereas they said something along the lines of "it might be multiball because I'm too much of a stubborn fool to admit I'm possibly wrong about a scumread". (Paraphrased, of course)

+ you're not on the town list because you haven't stood out as town.

Also, you're really stretching the definition of multiball if you want it to include 5maf+1SK. Multiball is two scum teams.

Still trying to convince Mala of my read, while I do so I'm going to say that this is a clever way to set-up two mislynches.

Calling it "clever" speaks volumes about yourself.

first, I did not " do nothing to prevent it" and I have been calling OS town all game. part of my attack on Nacho was because he was choosing such a terrible target to go after early on

Yes, you've literally been calling Oversoul town all game. Whoop-de-doo. Anyone can post an unexplained stance repeatedly. But if you really, really didn't want Oversoul to be lynched (you've been clearing him with the tenacity of a mason), then you would have explained the town-read. Or made a better case besides going "hey that guy!".

From my vantage point it looks like you're trying to earn townie-brownie points by calling Oversoul a mislynch. And I'm going to deny you.

then there's his interactions with OS. He just recently stated that he felt like he couldn't trust OS for doing the gambit, though when OS initially admitted that it was a gambit,

instead of showing distrust he was actually open to what OS might have learned from it

. The only time he has ever shown any negative emotion towards OS and what he's done with his gambit is when OS wagon started picking up. Before then, he didn't really care about him

Also, how in the world is the above even remotely scummy?

Well, at least you stuck with your second soft claim.

...eh, that post still feels fairly town and I think it flows with the logic of your fakeclaim gambit.

That's null. I called attention to the softclaim when I made a case on him. He had to make it part of the new claim.

Plus he's claiming a role he's had in another game.
Plus he listed the

number

of BP that he is.
Plus he has no credibility since he's a proven liar.

Why are people not on board with this lynch?

[Kublai Khan]

I've pointed out actual mental disconnects from town thought process on B&tB and all I get is everyone screaming about how town that slot is - so maybe I'm all gakked up, but I think my case is stronger there than this Oversoul one.

Oh, I'm totally with you on the mental disconnects of that player slot. The problem remains that it's a hydra player who apparently does no communicating at all outside the thread. And they don't sign their posts so they can totally dodge comments that make no sense. I don't think I'll ever have a town-read on that slot, but they aren't scummier than Oversoul atm.

Are you trying to convince me only scum would be silly enough to claim number of BPs?
If he's scum and BP, then he's just as foolish to claim it as he would be to do so as town.
If he's scum and not BP then it's a meaningless concern to me, and a actual concern to a anti-town killing role. Meh.
So...null tell, yes?

If Oversoul legitimately got a town 2-shot BP role, then why wouldn't his strategy be to lay low and scum-hunt hard? The only thing he has to fear is being mislynched so he... pulls a fake claim gambit and does nothing but be useless? Just mostly ignores the wagon on him and hopes that others launch bigger wagons before deadline?

Plus consider the length of time one has to fully consider all the implications of their role after they receive it. Revealing that it's 2-shot means that he thought it up as an aspect to make the claim beyond testable, but didn't think about the pro-town strategies of keeping it quiet. Which means it's a fakeclaim.

Think long-term implications of his claim, Thor665. Oversoul is not town.

[Kublai Khan]

My issue is - this establishes he did not play it in the optimal method and probably is not as skilled at mafia as you would like him to be.
The question it begs is this: would Oversoul *not* do that as town?
I submit he would do it, and thus the tell is not a good one.

I disagree. It's worse than sub-optimal. He allegedly has one weakness and he played in a way that exposes his weakness.

The thing is - I believe he's BP.
I don't think he'd try this gambit in a game with likely SK and also likely town killing role if he was not BP.
So, coming at it from that point, it is of little value to him as scum or town to then list his number.

So, I think it's further proof of bad play, and not proof of scum play - do you get my point there, and why do you dismiss that as a response?

I'll ignore the Day 1 "game with likely SK" for now.

But no, your counter-arguments make no sense to me. By saying "2-shot", he's saying "I'll take you 3 tries to NK me by yourself, so don't bother". Again, think hard about longer-term implications of his fakeclaim. You're smart enough that I shouldn't have to spell it out.

Make sense?

The "I think it's showing them not being up to date on each others lies" is a stretch, but otherwise, yeah.

{other stuff later}

[Kublai Khan]

Will you be sad once I flip and you are proven wrong?

I don't think so because you will blame it on me, but then how do you explain the people who got it right?

This is the most literal appeal to emotion I've ever seen.

Plus he's claiming a role he's had in another game.
Plus he listed the number of BP that he is.
Plus he has no credibility since he's a proven liar.

1) You obviously didn't read the link I gave you if you think that is the case
2) Why is this a big deal?
3) Which would you have known had I not told you?

1) I clicked the link. I read your role in that game. I iso'd the mod to find out your role pm. I searched the "Worst Roles" topic to try to learn more. Nothing. But no, I didn't read the LARGE THEME game itself. I assumed maybe you were BP in that game since you said "Me being a BP is pretty much a curse" with "curse" linking to that game and no other explanation provided. If I'm wrong, then congrats on refuting a minor point.
2) Because you should stop playing mafia on this site if you can't think of a possible difference between an unlimited BP and a X-Shot BP.
3) That your first claim was a lie? Yes.

so he is no longer kubbles

Never was.

WHY IS EVERYONE AVOIDING MY EDDIE CASE.

He makes a far better wagon than OS.

Post 2642

[Kublai Khan]

What do you think of Bulb and Moz claiming that I'm deflecting away from said question but still answering it? I don't even know how that works.

They seem hungry to make some sort of point. But from my POV the accusation is a non-starter. You were checking if my accusation was consistent or selective. It didn't seem like you were trying to deflect or shy away from my original question.

I am a little bothered that Bulbazak finds me so mindlessly manipulable. Bottom of Post 2728 gives me the impression that he views me as a force that needs harnessing and is trying to protect me from being controlled by you.

I could just be paranoid, but Bulbazak has fallen from my town-list.

Damn Thor and Kublai epic disscush.

I agree with your analysis of our thoughts and how that pertains to our alignments and the alignments of others.

That is some decadent sarcasm.

I disagree. It's worse than sub-optimal. He allegedly has one weakness and he played in a way that exposes his weakness.

So you're saying he would only do that as scum?

I can't argue that Oversoul's play has given scum-Oversoul a great advantage in this game. But I am arguing that a town-Oversoul read makes no sense given that his actions do not match his words, which reveals a duplicious nature.

Mind you, I can explain Oversoul's behavior post-wagon as being very scummy. You?

HEY EVERYBODY: LETS GET THE DESPERADO WAGON UP AND RUNNING AGAIN! FULL STEAM AHEAD!

You haven't fully read the game. I like that you're putting opinions and a vote down to allows others to get a minimal of a read on you, but why are you hard-pushing the counter-wagon?

NOPE. I am not giving mafia ANY insight.

How about giving town some insight and actually VOTE for somebody?

[Kublai Khan]

oh snaps this is multiball holy shit townpoints for everyone who called it!

You mean scum points right? Calling multiball before a flip is always scumm

You were one of the people calling it multiball, weren't you?

[Kublai Khan]

I'm curious to see where Amethyst Kitty's line of questioning is going. But not really. They are scum.

Quick, somebody (not Amethyst Kitty) name 5 reads that Amethyst Kitty has.

If you have to ISO, then you have to uncover 10 substantial reads.

Can't be done. Amethyst Kitty is a hydra double-posting nothingness.

---

I'm not bothering reading any Bacde posts until he can post something substantial and not just random braindead tunnelling bullshit.

---

ok so Red kills syr, but why does his team let him?

Oh, Seanald is scum too. He's been playing enough to not WIFOM a NK so strongly. Especially with such open leading questions.

Did anyone get a message from Syryana confirming his alignment? If not then I'm guessing that Seanald-scum or someone in his mafia did.

---

The question remains: What do you think of CTD's claim and its implications?

Didn't you just chastise Seanald for posting IIoA?

---

Just to understand. There are three neighborhoods?

CrashTextDummie - Slandaar
ThAdmiral - ???
Desperado - ???

And Bacde is claiming vig with no kill on the board? I smell bullshit on that one.

---

Though, actually, who was it who was actually telling me that OS's claims didn't make logical sense considering his eventual BP claim?
That person needs to sheep me more, but I want to call them town at this stage.
I sorta think it was KK though...so...meh.

Was me.
I've got a town-read on Haylen right now though. How would you feel if I started an Amethyst Kitty wagon?

I probably will soon, but I want to do some reading first. So probably Monday.

[Kublai Khan]

I am referring to KK

and he honestly didn't even bother with us until I started voicing my suspicions on him

You've got that backwards.

1784 - Amethyst Kitty - "Cephrir, Nacho, Ryu, Eddie, and possibly Hanzo are my scum reads."

1809 - Kublai Khan - "Very willing to lynch Day 1: Red Ryu, Oversoul, Amethyst Kitty, Baby Spice"

1868 - Amethyst Kitty - "Will talk to Mala, though I'd be fine with voting Cephrir, KK, Desp, and Ryu, possibly Thor and Nacho"

---

Just to understand. There are three neighborhoods?

CrashTextDummie - Slandaar
ThAdmiral - ???
Desperado - ???

Reminds me:
What do people (not just KK, but KK can answer too) are the chances that at least one, if not two, of the neighborhoods are town-scum neighborhoods? I personally would say the chances are pretty good.

It's still out-guess the mod territory. And I've played with the mod in a multiball Large Normal with all-town neighborhoods. Treat as VT and scum-hunt normally.
---

@People paying any attention at all to the Vig claim -

Eh, we just lynched someone for lying about a claim. Who in their right mind fakeclaims after that?

[Kublai Khan]

THIS IS SERIOUSLY GOING TO BE MY STRATEGY IN THIS GAME UNTIL YOU GUYS START LYNCHING THEZMON

You claimed Vigilante.
Vigilantes are not allowed to power-whine because they can take matters into their own hands.

No wagon for you until you can calmly summarize a case (i.e. "X is scum because Y, proven by Z"). That means you have to more than to just repeat shit in all-caps and quote shit with no analysis. Grow up and quit being "that guy".

[Kublai Khan]

WHAT PART OF THAT POST IS NOT CALM AND RATIONAL AND OBVIOUSLY CORRECT?

This is Thezmon's argument:

1) Bacde does A
2) Scum do A

3 (assumption) Town is much less likely to do A

4) (inference/implication) Bacde is scum

Yet he denies it.

Sheep Bacde. Scumhunting made easy.

Okay, you quoted #2, but where does thezmon221 say that "1) Bacde does A"?

[Kublai Khan]

HOW CAN I TAKE MATTERS INTO MY OWN HANDS WHEN I GET BLOCKED

Actually, going back and looking you did absolutely power-hint that you were a vig. So I take back my doubt.

[Kublai Khan]

This case is so good I seriously can't comprehend how thezmon isn't lynched yet

Well, he did do what you said. Fair enough.

What's the scum motivation?

[Kublai Khan]

Whats the town motivation to directly lie about something 20 minutes after you've said it?

This is what happened:

Look, I don't care how dumb I come off. Explain this to me like I'm a four year old.

thezmon221 is being logically inconsistent, I'll give you that. But there is always the possibility of derp. So I want you to eliminate that doubt in my mind.

If thezmon221 is scum, then his play indicates that he has reason not to want to list you as scum. Why?

[Kublai Khan]

Hmm.. Alright, I can buy that.

Vote: thezmon221

[Kublai Khan]

this post is so full of no

-m

I like how my post went from "full of no" to "I read it again and there are great points in there". I'm in your crosshairs because... of a Seanald scum-read? Explain.
----
I've got a super-town read on CrashTextDummie, so I'm making him responsible for reading Slandaar. If CrashTextDummie ever says "Slandaar is scum", then we lynch Slandaar. Otherwise I'm just going to ignore him for now.
----

Did anyone get a message from Syryana confirming his alignment? If not then I'm guessing that Seanald-scum or someone in his mafia did.

My understanding of friendly neighbor is that Syryana would have sent out a message confirming self as town. So presumably that message would only go out to a town read of Syryana's. Why would scum want to keep quiet about effectively being a town read of Syryana's?

Because the argument of "Hey, I must be town because [dead townie] thought I was town!" carries less weight than you think.

Given that nobody claimed it, it suggests the possibility that Syryana's message was delivered during the day or even instantaneously at night.

Seanald's NK WIFOM is still scummy as fuck.

[Kublai Khan]

Bacde, stop.

[Kublai Khan]

Now that we know there are three once again it is likely that 2 of them have been infiltrated by scum.

No.

Neighborhoods are nothing but WIFOM traps. Treat all neighbors claims as VT claims.

[Kublai Khan]

No, why would I?

[Kublai Khan]

you scum? Why would you care about who I fake vig tonight?

I am not SCUM babe.
But that doesn't stop me knownig who you want to fake VIG after you said that publically... I want to see the parnoid noices...

Nero Cain has a point. There's no reason you should care about his statement if you're town. Looks more like you were jumping on some random thing to look productive.

khan don't get your granny panties in a twist. gut tells me your town I am just trying to solidify the read through interaction

I'm feeling dismissed when I'm pretty sure I asked you a legit question. Explain the previous thing, then explain the "solidify the read" thing. Also, while you're at it, explain the "Thor665 said there will be 3 to 4nks" thing you said back in post 1887 that you never explained.

not wrt wc. scum love "useless town" lynches

Wait, why are you voting thezmon221?

thezmon221 made it a point to not vote Bacde and is drawing the distinction between useless town and scum. If you truly believe that scum love useless town lynches, then shouldn't you be thinking thezmon221 is town because he is not trying to push a Bacde = scum argument?

[Kublai Khan]

[Kublai Khan]

I don't know why we haven't gone to night yet.

[Kublai Khan]

Who else would you want in the town core?

How in the world does it help to push this question right before night instead of waiting for the next day?

[Kublai Khan]

Who else would you want in the town core?

How in the world does it help to push this question right before night instead of waiting for the next day?

Because we've been stalled for several hours. Might as well make use of the time. Because figuring that out was one of my goals this game day. Because Bacde asked me what I wanted to talk about. And because it's something for town players to think about overnight.

What?

This game is stalled because you prevented a hammer to pursue this question.

Your goal should be to find and lynch scum. This game is multiball, so anyone can legitimately scumhunt and look town. So this "town core" stuff is bullshit.

Town sleep during the night. Scum think about who is town when planning nightkills. So quit helping scum and hammer.

[Kublai Khan]

Mollie has something to post first.

Oh? Is she planning on dodging more questions?

[Kublai Khan]

Vote: Bacde

Wanna hear Nachomamma8's ThAdmiral case first though.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay, I want to hear Nero Cain's Haylen/Rena case. Is it more than just "no scumhunting"?

Also:

@moderator: If Haylen is going to post as Rena, can we officially change the VCs to read Rena instead of Haylen?

<<< Her choice. I'll ask. >>>

[Kublai Khan]

KK looks pretty bad to me. He voted red ryu earlier in day one without much explanation, and didn't really push it all that much, which could easily be distancing. He then is very happy to move over to oversoul, which he does push through to lynch. Day 2 he was reluctant to get on the thezmon wagon, debating it with Bacde for a number of posts. That being said he was one of the first to actually vote thezmon, but I still think this could be a bus vote.

I'm a forceful player. I could have easily killed the thezmon221 lynch if I wanted to. Instead I gave it life.

Are you suggesting that I'm bluescum because I voted-bussed one partner (Red Ryu), then power bussed another? For town-cred? In a likely multiball setup?

Either tell me this is what you're saying or get a grip and read this game. A lazy ThAdmiral is a scum ThAdmiral.

P.edit: Oh, others said basically the same idea.

[Kublai Khan]

Pfft.

Hey, where'd ThAdmiral go?

[Kublai Khan]

@Rena:

Okay, I want to hear Nero Cain's Haylen/Rena case. Is it more than just "no scumhunting"?

No, not really. I mean this looks like scum lurking to me. + I like what Cephir pulled up.

If you read the game, maybe you can start playing the game.

[Kublai Khan]

I read that Kublai and ignored it because bullshitz.

You can't ignore reasons then accuse people of voting you without reason.

That said, I believe your claim. It's testable and makes sense given the flipped ninja. Also, I've got a town read on you.

Btw, whatever happened to penguin? I had them down as a likely blue partner.

He's still a likely blue partner.

---

What use is a ninja

unless

town has something like a watcher?

Well if Haylen is Redscum... But that was my mistake.

That reply makes no sense. You said you "don't see how a town watcher workins within the setup" not "how a redscum watcher".
----
Reasons for voting Bacde:

I'm assuming the other mafia is red (since a red/blue dichotomy makes sense)

Nacho is obvredscum who shot red ryu for being a huge supporter of the nacho wagon, but also as an attempt to discredit the wagon by leaving the largest and towniest supporters alive

I bet he was hoping red ryu would flip scum to discredit the wagon

don't let it fool you boys

VOTE: Nacho

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Pretty sure thats our last bluescum

To anyone that's bothering to read Bacde's posts, it's obvious that he's tunneling on Nachomamma8 as a sort of default mode. It's meant to look like confirmation bias (tunneling town), but it's starting to look really fake. Look at these two quotes from his opening Day 2 and Day 3 posts. "Nacho is obv redscum!" "Nacho is bluescum". Tunneling town have a consistent, if flawed, viewpoint. Bacde is just staying on message and not keeping track of whether his message is logical.

Keeping those two quotes in mind:

Lets reduce our nightkills by one today

This is the real reason why the message switched to "Nacho is bluescum". Scumteams in a multiball setup usually prioritize killing off other scumteams because night-kills are much harder to defend against than lynches. Especially if they think the competing scumteam is down to one last member. Note that Bacde this quotes shows that A) Bacde knows FOR SURE that it's scumteam v scumteam v town instead of scumteam v SK v town. The naming of a scumteam heavily suggests that it's multiball, but it shouldn't be considered a confirmed fact. And B) Bacde knows FOR SURE that the blue scum team has only 3 members (i.e. lynching blue today eliminates the team).

Also this is weird as fuck:

I mean MAYBE I could be redscum fypov (who we are still assuming exists? It could be purplescum or magentascum or blackscum even, but the other scumteam basically), but Nacho DEFINITELY doesn't deserve to be higher than me on the list

This is a really weird backpedal from having called the second scumteam the red scum. Nobody really cared, so why make this rhetorical question? I'm guessing that Bacde's red scummates gave him shit for stating their color.

Hey bacde, who did you target last night, as vig?

I'm actually not vig, I was trying to draw the nightkill

I'm a reflexive night-vengeful townie

Hey, it's another bullshit fakeclaim. And it's the second fakeclaim to revolve around the ability to kill. Someone is trying to justify being linked to a murder later in the future.

Me bringing up that I lynched thezmon isn't my attempt at "town cred" dumbass

It totally is. You've done it four times now.

Still think its a possibility that Bcade was early distancing from scumCho.

I don't think so. Given that they have history, it looks more like scum-Bacde obfuscating any potential read that Nachomamma8 can get on him.

[Kublai Khan]

I don't think so. Given that they have history, it looks more like scum-Bacde obfuscating any potential read that Nachomamma8 can get on him.

Eh, Nacho looks like scum to me. I guess they could be scum from different teams.

Given the thezmon221 lynch, it's very unlikely Bacde is bluescum. So Bacde would have to be redscum. So, is Nachomamma8 bluescum?

because I promise you that I am town in this game

Well, scum would

never

promise to be town.

the reason that my reasoning on nacho switched from red to blue scum was

because I saw thezmon as a partner of nacho

, and thezmon flipped blue

The bolded part is the sort of thing that you need to explain in convincing detail.

Also, why are you basing everything on scum bussing each other. Why would scum bus each other hard in a multiball setup?

I helped you lynch scum before, just work with me til it stops paying off at least?

Should I take that as an admission of guilt?

See how ThAd doesn't think about the possibility of redscum having a watcher or 'something like a watcher'? thats because he is redscum and knows they don't hence I coloured him red.

I'm kinda on ThAdmiral's side on this issue. Even in multiball, scum have ability that counter town PR, not generally each other's PR. Even if the redscum team has a watcher, then town would still likely have a watcher/tracker.

I'm going to ask you this Khan, because I figure you'd know: Is a vengeful townie even a normal role?

It's not an explicitly normal role. However, large normal setups allow for 1-2 new/variants roles. I'm pretty sure a vengeful townie would be OKed.

That said, Bacde claimed "reflexive night-vengeful townie". Which sounds like a bullshit way for saying "bomb". Which falls under the same category of "likely allowed variant", but given that Rena visisted him and he unvoted her (aka, didn't call out clashing claim conditions), then Bacde is lying about his role. Again.

---

Thad isn't DLG, Peregrine is.

Seriously, WTF? A case is made against DLG's actions, but a different guy is wagoned?

I mean, why the hell is even Cephrir voting ThAdmiral? I'm not saying that ThAdmiral is town, but the case presented is against someone else.

Also, I'm disappointed in a lot of you for not even looking at my Bacde case.

[Kublai Khan]

Mod(s): Please prod the lurker (Seanald)

<<< Though Seanald

was

eligible for a prod, he posted before a moderator could hand it to him. Thus, he escapes prod-hood. However, other individuals are not so fortunate. >>>

[Kublai Khan]

Given the thezmon221 lynch, it's very unlikely Bacde is bluescum. So Bacde would have to be redscum. So, is Nachomamma8 bluescum?

sure

Are you just telling me anything I want to hear to get someone lynched?

[Kublai Khan]

Are you just telling me anything I want to hear to get someone lynched?

That's what I did to get thezmon lynched

At what point did you realize that I wasn't talking to you there?

[Kublai Khan]

Thezmon I saw as a link to scumcho, since he was the one being THE MOST fency and weird about me voting for nacho. So I strung him up. But he flipped blue--the only natural conclusion I could make, that continued my train of thought of the thezmon-nacho link, was to assume that nacho is indeed bluescum.

This is actually pretty easy to follow

Eh. It's more like you've already got the conclusion that Nachomamma8 is scum and you just followed whatever course it takes to re-reach that conclusion.

----

actually

VOTE: KK

I want this. His justification for Bacde scum looks like a reach and him not following through on the Kitty scum read after the toasty flip leads me to believe that he didn't really didn't really believe in that in the first place which means he probably was, in fact, looking to go after two mislynches.

Thing is, if we were town, based on what he has stated on us yesterday us not posting much should have triggered suspicion on his part. He hasn't even mentioned us at all today. He needs to die.

Toasty flip? WTF are you talking about? You mean Oversoul?

Do you maybe remember that there was a "blue mafia" flip at the start of the next day? Do you think maybe that was a bit of a game-changer? That maybe I had to reconsider things a little?

This game still has so many players that I haven't really conducted any deep-seated analysis. If I see activity from Bacde at the start of Day 3 that makes me want to shine a light on it and question it, then that's what I'll do.

I still find you quite scummy. Same with penguin_alien. I'll pursue the case when I'm good and ready to write it out properly.

tl;dr - Calm yo tits.
--

Still waiting on Rena to claim those results...

She already claimed them.

[Kublai Khan]

-2 close enough.

I'm an x-shot vig. Haven't used any of my shots yet. Will be shooting slandaar or nacho tonight.
How does that dick taste?

Does it taste like neighbor? Because you already claimed neighbor.

@PeregrineV - Has ThAdmiral (or his predecessor) said anything in your neighborhood QT to substantiate this?

Also:

I don't know about syr. I mean there is probably a vig in this game, and while I don't think they killed syr it could have been a random vig or third party kill or something.

Does a x-shot vig hypothesize about other random vigs and third party kills? Feels like a lot of death to be nonchalant with.

I don't buy the vig claim either.

Well, okay. That checks out at least.

[Kublai Khan]

Unvote, Vote: Nero Cain

Why Nero Cain? You had a strong town read on him during the first two game days. Explain in better detail what he did to become "number one scum". Is it just lazy bullshit voting.

[Kublai Khan]

No cuz ur still scum. Our slot and penguin would be a better venue to go after than bacde. There is nothing he has done that is even remotely scummy. You need death.

You really want to go 1 on 1?

Okay. This is the perfect time to do it.

Vote: Amethyst Kitty

[Kublai Khan]

Reasons for suspecting Amethyst Kitty:

Early stuff:
> Unvoting without revoting in pre-game RVS.
--- This is strictly a move of appeasement and buddying.
> Post 900: Strong reaction against Red Ryu trying todirect night actions, but never spoke a word against anyone else doing stuff like vig-directing.
--- Fun Fact: Red Ryu flipped scum.

Oversoul stuff:
> Doing nothing to try to push any counter-wagons to Oversoul or stop his lynch in any way until I called her out on it.
--- After that, she started up a case on EddieFenix, which indicates to me that she knows I had a very legitimate point and changed her actions accordingly.

OMGUS! and now stuff
> Ignores me until I put her on a scum list. Then I magically end up on her scum list.
> Calls me out on OMGUSing her
> Drops it, but still keeps me high on her scum list.
> Makes a case on why I'm scummy, but refers to nothing that occured previous to first reason for calling me scummy
--- Smells like a reads first, justification later type of activity. Which she's been doing all game.
--- Also doing the bullshit hydra thing of "oh, my partner had a x-read, I'll let them explain" "...." <- No explanation or anything ever given

[Kublai Khan]

Let's try this again.

Bacde, explain the case on Nachomamma8 like I'm a 4 year old.

[Kublai Khan]

town-nacho would not have tunneled this idiotic OS case for this long

but its the perfect case for him to push as scum

until I REPLACE IN AND CALL HIM OUT ON IT

Is this your Nachomamma8 scum case?

[Kublai Khan]

I don't do 1vs1 get over yourself. 1vs1 don't help anyone in my mind and sometimes are used as a scum advantage because it gets everyone so wrapped up in it and people forget to hunt.

Wait, what? You called me scummy and vote for me when there's a wagon on thAdmiral going on. But when that wagon disintegrates and I vote you back, you back off?

No cuz ur still scum. Our slot and penguin would be a better venue to go after than bacde. There is nothing he has done that is even remotely scummy. You need death.

Bacade stfu. You aren't fucking obv town. So just stfu.

How is Bacde both "not remotely scummy"

and

"not fucking obvtown" at the same time?

[Kublai Khan]

I don't do 1vs1 get over yourself. 1vs1 don't help anyone in my mind and sometimes are used as a scum advantage because it gets everyone so wrapped up in it and people forget to hunt.

Wait, what? You called me scummy and vote for me when there's a wagon on thAdmiral going on. But when that wagon disintegrates and I vote you back, you back off?

She's also lying, because she was 100% ready to 1v1 me in Pokemon Nuzlocke before GNR went missing.

If Mara was speaking then this doesn't hold

3787 is Mala.
3765 is Mara.
So the discongruity of the Bacde read is just stupid hydra shenanigans.

[Kublai Khan]

> Unvoting without revoting in pre-game RVS.
--- This is strictly a move of appeasement and buddying.

You'll need to explain, because otherwise, I consider much of the pre-game stuff null.

Sure. When you strictly unvote someone (no revoting in same post), you're standing a message that says "whoops, I don't want to lynch, you might be town". Think back to times when you've been unvoted. You get a sort of near-subliminal relief and some gratitude towards the person that unvoted you. It's a friendly gesture.

Now in RVS votes are at their most meaningless, so why would someone ever unvote instead of just moving their vote somewhere else? Consciously or not, Amethyst Kitty had a disarming attitude instead of the more typical town attitude of paranoia.

It's a little heady and not 100%, but scum are more likely to unvote in RVS.

VOTE: Khan

Dont wanna be on despers right now. I'm taking this 1v1 hut i will make a case tomorow, dont have the time to do it today thouh it shouldnt be that hard to figure out why i hink khqn is sum. If he was town, he wouldnt have needed to be goaded into battling one of his top scun reads

I love this "Khan can't vote multiple people at the same time, therefore scum" argument. I look forward to the rest of your case.

P-Edit: Desperado makes a good point on the cop case. Was that your point as well Khan?

Similar. In my early game notes, I made a entry for Amethyst Kitty's Post 900 and wondered why she didn't a similar strong reaction to those that had been vig-directing earlier in the game. She didn't dislike all PR-directing, only apparently cop-directing. It seemed really unlikely that she was a cop because such a post would really draw attention to her. So I put it on the back-burner.

When she demanded a case on her, I checked my notes and found that it was in response to a known mafioso. So, yeah. Coaching is the only thing that makes sense.

Well my PV case was pretty good I thought; hes most likely the bluescum.

AK is red or town not blue.

Did you even vote for PeregrineV?

(Answer:

No

)

I see that you are putting your hand up to die tonight. Excellent.

WTF? CrashTextDummie is one of the towniest players and posted some good questions, and that's how you respond?

[Kublai Khan]

In all seriousness though I tried to be useful about 10-15 pages back with some wagon analysis, and that is when everyone jumped on me.

In all seriousness it was some pretty horrible wagon analysis.

I'm pretty meh on the ak wagon as well tbh.

Fuck it, lets give the nacho wagon a real go.

vote: nacho

Amazingly suspect timing. When Amethyst Kitty gets 7 out of 10 votes and is clearly scum, you suddenly decide to start a counter-wagon. You need to bring something more substantial to the table than "meh" and "Fuck it".

[Kublai Khan]

I was trying to get him to make it more believable!

[Kublai Khan]

1) though, if you want to look at someone who is badly pushing at Bacde that is scum I would look at Khan because of the fact that not only does he push Bacde terribly, be had better pushes to go after, pushes that he apparently believed in but suddenly dropped for him.

2) I am also under the impression that he is a better player than this.

3) I also find it strange that he pins CTD as super-obvious town, but he doesn't give Bacde the exact same extension even though he's done a shit-load for town with his "anti-town" play.

4) His case on Oversoul was just as bad, if not worse than yours

5) his other cases are just as shitty

6) he made a shallow case on us based on Oversoul flipping town, doesn't pursue it.

7) when I originally bring up my scum read on him, all he does is ask if anyone remembers our reads and, in doing such discrediting us

8) we

were

scummy enough to warrant a wagon, though he doesn't really initiate it but waits to see if others would do it first

9) Sheeps onto Thez, because of what Bacde said who he currently finds scummy...

10) I had to actually PUSH him to make a case on he, and all the things he is calling me out on has very shallow thought processes to them.

11) alot of his reasons for things are just as, even his reasons for why he thinks people are town.

1) "Badly" is a useless judgement call to make in a mafia game. Were my points bad? Was the timing bad? It sounds like you just hate my choice of targets which, given that we have a named mafia group (i.e. probably multiball), there is no evidence that Bacde isn't a non-blue scum.

2) Really? A burden of proficiency fallacy as your second point?

3) CrashTextDummie is breaking things point rationally and in a way that I can understand his thought process. Bacde spends 75 pages calling Nachomamma8 scum with little reasoning, then "Squirrel!" they are voting together for someone. Then back to calling Nachomamma8 scum. I don't understand Bacde and he's very reluctant to explain himself. So he doesn't get the same town-points that CrashTextDummie gets.

4) Again. "Bad". Well, your case on me is bad. Damn, that's much easier to say something is bad instead of saying something substantial.

5) Ooh, "shitty". What a vocab!

6) Sorry, was busy lynching your scum-buddy Red Ryu the next day.

7) No, I specifically addressed the fact that your scum-read on me is based on nothing but OMGUS. You

still

haven't given an alternative explanation for why I ever ended up on your scumlist.

8) WTF?

9) Are you calling me scummy for lynching scum?

10) So shallow that you haven't bothered to refute or provide alternative explanations?

11) Oh shit, did you forget to write "bad" there? That's the lynchpin of your whole case! You can't be forgetting that word!

Summary:

When I replaced in, I found four players to be very scummy when reading: (Oversoul, Red Ryu, you, and Baby Spice/penguin_alien). I only have one vote and it's incredibly inefficient to make four simultaneous cases. So Day 1 I pushed a case on Oversoul. After Day 2 started, Bacde made a good case on thezmon221, so you got put on the back burner a little longer. Day 3, Bacde opened with some posts that rubbed me the wrong way because his logic doesn't make any kind of sense to me. Since he is a very active player, I made on case on him and

even he acknowledged that my case had a lot of merit

. Then the ThAdmiral case started up. I didn't agree with it, but I didn't have any reason to debunk it either. So I spent some time questioning it. Then that crumbled, so it was suddenly the perfect time to put my cards on the table about why I find you scummy.

Besides the fact that I'm "bad" and saying "bad" things. The entirety of your case seems to revolve on the fact that I didn't drop everything and try to constantly ineffectually get you lynched no matter what else is happening in the game. You seem absolutely mystified about the concept of a back-burner. I think this exposes that you've really only been skimming the thread and looking for mentions of your name so you can try to defuse any potential wagon before they start. Like scum does. Because you're scum and that's bad.

[Kublai Khan]

Khan, Red Ryu was killed at night... not lynched the next day... you just admitted to killing him. thanks for that.

I meant thezmon221, not Red Ryu.

I am not calling you scummy for lynching scum, I'm calling you scummy for attacking the leader of that day's scum lynch

YOU ADMIT THAT WE WERE A TOP SCUM-READ, YET YOU GO AFTER BACDE TODAY WHO LED THE LYNCH ON SCUM.

You proved the central argument of my case.

we were a scummier read to you all game, but you pursue Bacde today over us until I called you out on it. Bacde who lead the wagon on scum yesterday despite being under heavy attack. why?

That is the ONLY argument to your case and I've answered it 3 separate times (here, here, and here). You don't care. You literally do not care. So why do you keep asking "why?" as if you're scum-hunting?

and yes, you did try to subtly discredit us. I mean, what else would the whole "quick, who can tell me who are their reads" thing could be, especially when I'm attacking you.

You aren't even addressing my points, just throwing them off to the side... again

You were going around asking "Hey, why do you have a town read on KK?". I'm glad that you're acknowledging that that was an attack and not some sort of legitimate attempt to scum-hunt.

WTF? I addressed EVERY SINGLE ONE of your points. Try actually reading my posts. You've addressed nothing of what I've wrote. Not even a flat-out denial. Literally the closest thing you've done to addressing anything I've written it a 3 letter word. And I can actually use the word "literally" correctly.

Yeah that is pretty weak, in Khan's mind all three of you are bluescum so it's not really an outrageous mistake. Certainly not a freudian slip.

No, he's called us scum, but I don't thinks he's inferred that we are bluescum

Except when I showed that you were coaching blue-scum Red Ryu. You really haven't read a single thing I've posted, have you? Dingos monkey dishwasher fartfart. Doesn't even matter what I type right here at all.

Mala's tantrum and the followup by Mara feel very town to me, which is the first time since d1 that they have been townreading so strongly.

I'm stunned that someone can completely dodge a case; hell, not even appear to read it. Instead attack some random other people, say the word "psychological" a few times to sound smart then put on a little drama show and people call them town.

Bravo scummy heads of Amethyst Kitty. I'm actually impressed.

[Kublai Khan]

*sigh*

Going to bed all frustrated now.

[Kublai Khan]

and no, you didn't answer that part of the argument you only reacted to it to make it look like you did. The only thing that resembles an answer would be the first post and even that one was

"you're scummy but I don't want to deal with you yet" kinda post. You don't just put your top scum-read on the back burner like that. just, no.

Okay, this is going to be revolutionary, so hold on to your seat. Mafia teams have

more

than one member. I'll give you a moment to process that idea.

So even if I think that you're scummy, I may put that aside for a moment if someone else is in the spotlight, because (*gasp*) they might also be scum. Insane, right? I might be trying to figure out the alignment of more than one person at a time.

Also, being that there are so many players in this game, I will react first to what's immediately happening instead of just random old stuff. So when Day 3 started and Bacde posted completely opposite reasoning for why he wanted Nachomamma8 lynched, I called him out on it. BECAUSE IT JUST HAPPENED. I really don't care that he was pivotal in lynching thezmon221 BECAUSE ALL SIGNS ARE POINTING TO A MULTIBALL SETUP. I'm typing stuff in caps BECAUSE ITS THE FOURTH TIME I'VE EXPLAINED IT TO YOU AND YOU'RE STILL POSTING DITZY BRAINDEAD CRAP LIKE:

you left us and went after bacde because Thez flipped Blue scum?

--

and I have read your post, and I have responded to you.

Link it. Is it that post where you call it "bad" four times? Because that's not a response.

Amazingly suspect timing. When Amethyst Kitty gets 7 out of 10 votes and is clearly scum, you suddenly decide to start a counter-wagon. You need to bring something more substantial to the table than "meh" and "Fuck it".

Explain to me in one sentence why ak is "clearly scum".

This reeks of an "I don't give a shit about your case" attitude.

Here.

--
@penguin_alien - I guessing that mastin2 listed Thor665 as "smurfed" instead of shot because it's "funny".

<<< This is correct. The Important Links post lists the correct flavor of "shot". >>>

[Kublai Khan]

So.. Back to lynching Amethyst Kitty?

[Kublai Khan]

I think you are red scum and there is someone on your team who is coaching you

Are you suggesting that the red scum team has day talk?

It's official. Bulbazak isn't scum. Same for ffullisade.

I'm not feeling an AK scum. It seems too easy.

I could easily see Seanald as scum ie lurking through most of the days to the extent I forget he's actually playing this game, coming in to bandwagon that sort of thing.

Easy? Pfft. The people on the Amethyst Kitty wagon were townier than those making excuses to stay off it.

If you want an easy wagon, look at Seanald. It's super-easy to wagon the guy that isn't putting up much of a fight.

Wrong. You get something from the lynch, but it's nor what you desired. You still get information, but it's using that information to your advantage.

Second time Amethyst Kitty has encouraged a wagon on someone that they aren't voting.

It's still a scum move.

what's the town motivation of setting up mislynches in the way Khan did because I can't really think of any.

Except I didn't "set up a mislynch". I pointed out that it's a scum move to say stuff like "hey, oversoul is town guys", and do

nothing

to prevent the lynch. No arguments, no counter-wagons, no show of town-tells, no meta arguments. Nuh-thang.

Except

after

I said that to tried to start a counter-wagon on EddieFenix. Because you knew that I was dead-on right.

[Kublai Khan]

Khan I take it you agree with my reservations re: the seanald wagon?

I do.

Kk:

I been told that if I move the vote its going right back on you. I'd vote Seanald, but I'm not allowed, but good job on trying to twist a conversation to your benefit.

Yet other people are saying so and so are scum, but you're not saying jack shit to them for not voting.

"twist a conversation"? WTF? It's one of the things about you I called scummy back in post 3770.

And calling someone town while not stopping their lynch IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DIFFERENT from saying "so and so is scum" and not voting. Only scum would try to play dumb and not understand that.

[Kublai Khan]

I think you are red scum and there is someone on your team who is coaching you

Are you suggesting that the red scum team has day talk?

It's official. Bulbazak isn't scum. Same for ffullisade.

I disagree. This is actually a kinda scummy post 'cause scum coach in the thread all the time and I think that's what was being said.

+ Bulb is lurking pretty hardcore.

The rules post says no night-talk. So...

[Kublai Khan]

It says what now?

Mechanics:

This setup is approved by Normal Game guidelines--as such, friendly reminder: flavor is just flavor. This game has a day-start. Everyone with night-talk may communicate during Pregame, but must stop once Day One has begun, unless otherwise stated. Day ends when either Deadline hits or a majority has been reached.

Ah.. whoops. Didn't see the "unless otherwise stated" loophole. Nevermind. Ignore me and carry on.

[Kublai Khan]

General note: Just because I

will

fix something doesn't mean you should

rely

on my fixing something. That applies for pretty much everything, too. Including activity. Just because I'll give you warnings and be lenient with posting times, doesn't mean you should rely on my warnings and leniency. Self-regulation is far more effective, and it reduces my workload quite significantly.

Prod-dodge

[Kublai Khan]

Peregrine, I still don't understand how ActionDan and DLG had such a conversation pre-game that was so convincing that Thad is now so town that you're coloring him in as Green. He's the only person (other than yourself) who isn't dead to get that distinction.

mutha-fukkin' this.

---
I'm a little bummed that I'm sitting alone on Amethyst Kitty, who is pretty clearly scum.

I really need to get back into this game and see if any of the alternate wagons have merit. Note to myself to spend time reading tonight.

[Kublai Khan]

Vote: Nero Cain

[Kublai Khan]

Is Amethyst Kitty using humor as a town-tell? Seriously?

[Kublai Khan]

Is Amethyst Kitty using humor as a town-tell? Seriously?

No, I'm using it as a relative tell.

Nice misrep though

A relative tell of what?

Learn what misrep actually means.

[Kublai Khan]

Is Amethyst Kitty using humor as a town-tell? Seriously?

Fair, but I actually found the rest of it somewhat convincing, or at the very least genuine from AK. Anything to say about that?

I only skimmed it. I'm a little buzzed right now.

Please don't be intentionally obtuse it isn't cute

How about Amethyst Kitty playing Buzzword Bingo? Is that cute?

[Kublai Khan]

So we are back to this argument again? You need to let it freaken go I swear. This ISN'T helping anyone and certainly helping scum more by engaging in this useless tunneling behavior.

Kublai Khan - 1 (Amethyst Kitty)

---
Just reminding everyone that Amethyst Kitty is still scum.

I'm behind and reading.

[Kublai Khan]

Slaandar is scum as well, due to the 8 scum comment.

Do amuse me with your explanation.

You never explained why you think there are 8 scum in this game. The typical scum to town ratio is 1:3, which would make the number of scum in this game 6. Using that logic, there would be 3 scum per team in a multiball situation, which we seem to be in. However, you assume that there is 4. The only way I could see anyone coming to this conclusion is if they were on a scum team and

knew

that there were 4 players on the team, which means that they would anticipate 8 scum. Therefore, your statement stating that there are 4 on each team is a scumslip.

How come you never said anything with Bacde said there was one bluescum left?

[Kublai Khan]

How come you never said anything with Bacde said there was one bluescum left?

If we are assuming typical scum:town ratios, saying there was only 1 blue scum left going into d3 after 2 blue scum flips is understandable. If Slaandar is scum, Bacde is town.

And the possibility of uneven scumteams?

[Kublai Khan]

No, just trying to get an idea of your thought process. You weren't considering the idea of uneven scumteams.

So anyone who assumes a 3-person scum teams is town, but assuming a 4-person scum team is scum. Because typical multiball theory is two 3-person scum teams, yes?

I'm weighing the possibility that two 4-person scum teams exist (with 1 scum PR flip) vs Slandaar being oblivious to typical multiball setups.

What other evidence is there that Slandaar is scum?

[Kublai Khan]

khan defending Slandaar hard here...

Mostly because I'm still loving the Nachomamma8/CrashTextDummie case against you.

@Bulbazak - Kinda vague, though I agree with the charge of active lurking.

[Kublai Khan]

@Nero Cain - Because I think it's most more likely that you are scum and you're just attacking anyone that isn't dogpiling onto someone who is not-you. Hence you popping up to accuse me of "hard defending".

[Kublai Khan]

Hmm, okay probably not.

Still, your Balbazak wagon is bad. He's very town.

[Kublai Khan]

Willing to lynch within {Amethyst Kitty, Nero Cain, PeregrineV}
Will compromise at last minute to lynch {Slandaar, Seanald, Human Destroyer}
Not willing to lynch anyone outside that.

[Kublai Khan]

There's about 28 hours to go. I think Bulbazak is much townier than Nero Cain.

[Kublai Khan]

In-game behavior trumps META reads.

[Kublai Khan]

Cephrir said that PV is unlikely to be scum due to ThAd being a killing role, and I agree, as that'd put 1 killing role in every neighborhood (balance).

Two things...

Where is it written that all neighborhoods must be "balanced" against each other? You're making the assumption that mirroring is the only way to balance a single aspect of a game setup, and even then you're leaving out possible ideas (say.. one neighborhood is a red/blue pairing). mastin2 has been a player and a mod for a long time and can certainly balance a PR heavier Scum Team A with Scum Team B having a say in who the vig targets.

Second, PeregrineV's contributions to the game have been nothing but surface-level "scum-hunting".

P.Edit - Damn, CrashTextDummie is rocking it.

[Kublai Khan]

yeah, I just did the math. 6 is only 25%. 8 is 33.33333333333%. So 8 is more likely than 6. Slandaar is prob red scum with Cephir and two of Khan/Nacho/Rena/CTD/Bacde

So blue is probs Bulb with one of CTD/Bacde/khan.

How did you conclude that 1/3 is more likely than 1/4?

Because each scum group is competing against the other. (Potential for cross-kills)

I like how Nero Cain is just now questioning the 8 scum = scumslip theory. When I questioned it, he declared I was defending Slandaar.

[Kublai Khan]

When I questioned it, he declared I was defending Slandaar.

So why did you not deny that you were defending Slan when I accused you of it? 'Cause you were and you knew it.

I wasn't defending Slandaar then any more than you are now. Bulbazak was attacking on setup speculation and that setup spec didn't feel kosher. When you attacked me, I thought you were trying to deflect attention from yourself. Then I looked and you likely weren't, so I bailed.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm defending Slandaar?

As much as I am.

(Hint: My point is that I'm not and your accusation is, and has been, false.)

[Kublai Khan]

Where is it written that all neighborhoods must be "balanced" against each other? You're making the assumption that mirroring is the only way to balance a single aspect of a game setup, and even then you're leaving out possible ideas (say.. one neighborhood is a red/blue pairing).

Again, given how often this setup was reviewed, I'd say that the neighborhoods are likely balanced. I would say that the composition of the neighborhoods were determined beforehand, and the players were simply placed in those roles, rather than players placed into neighborhoods and then given the roles. Again, I ruled out other possible combinations via PoE. Now if you want to argue that my PoE is wrong, I'm all ears.

I am arguing that you're PoE is wrong. I understand how you got to your conclusions, but I don't believe that you've accounted for all possibilities. You've made assumptions, which is dangerous.

mastin2 has been a player and a mod for a long time and can certainly balance a PR heavier Scum Team A with Scum Team B having a say in who the vig targets.

Are you suggesting that one team has more PRs on it and is stronger than another team?

For example, you don't seem to have considered the possibility of two scum teams with different PRs and/or sizes. If you really want to follow the thought train of "lots of reviewers therefore..." then you should keep in mind that non-mirrored scum teams are incredibly tricky to balance.

I agree that the number of scum in the neighborhoods is between 0-2. That's the only assumption I've willing to commit to at this point.

--

(Also, omgus can be a scumtell, depending, and in this case, with these wagons where they are, I think it is. There's also the aspect where you're scum so I tend to interpret additional actions as scum motivated)

If you're planning on fake claiming cop, it wont work. Insane cop is not a normal role.

Let me know when someone has a reason for us not lynching this on the spot

Watcher claim, Haylen, etc...

[Kublai Khan]

@ Khan: If you think I'm mistaken somewhere, then let's discuss where I might be mistaken. Are there possibilities that you think are likely that I'm missing, and if so why? Also, what are your thoughts on Slandaar-scum? We're getting close to deadline, so I'd like to know.

Um, I answered the first question in Post 4725. (After second quote)

Post 4640 answers your second question.

Vote: Slandaar

[Kublai Khan]

See, I was a little confused here. You seem to be saying that I haven't considered non-mirrored teams in my speculation, but then go on to call non-mirrored teams unbalanced (Well, "incredibly tricky to balance", but when talking about setup spec, it's essentially the same thing.), which seems to support my original supposition. Am I missing something here, and if so, can you expand on this point?

"tricky to balance" does not mean the same thing as "unbalanced, therefore disregard". That's where your problem lies.

[Kublai Khan]

Oi, Desperado. Move your vote. Slandaar is scummier than Bulbazak.

[Kublai Khan]

has had us down as scum all game and now within minutes of his lynch he starts entertaining the idea that we are town? cos saying, "I will look into rena if I live" is treating us as town

Gosh, it sounds like he's not totally sure about your alignment at all.

[Kublai Khan]

of course it's not a scumlynch
those wagons were horrible

I don't entirely disagree with this.

[Kublai Khan]

bah.

[Kublai Khan]

Yay. Last ever game I will ever play with hydras is over.

[Kublai Khan]

now that's commitment ladies and gentlemen

I was tempted to team up with someone else and half commit.

Then contradict them. Then abandon them and get replaced.