MICRO 172: DRAGON BALL Z [TOWN WIN]

[fferyllt]

/confirm

[fferyllt]

That is an awesome avatar for a hydra.

[fferyllt]

Because chk

same.

[fferyllt]

That would be my guess.

hi guys

[fferyllt]

slow game is slow.

[fferyllt]

Hamlet, you should soliloquize some more.

[fferyllt]

@bacde So you and pope have played a few games together, then?

[fferyllt]

@bacde which of pope's posts did you think were bad reactions to your pressure?

[fferyllt]

@bacde which of pope's posts did you think were bad reactions to your pressure?

I'm still curious about this.

[fferyllt]

his more recent posts look better though

agree.

I'm tentatively calling you town.

[fferyllt]

Guys this is a chk game. So don't assume scum numbers.

Though ghost looks pretty opportunistic.

About the number of scum. 9p game. I think I would also say 2 scums. But meh... IDK if ghost's statement was scumslip or speculating town.

What's the votecount?

the only other chk game I've played in had 9p 3 scum

The only chkflip game I have played before was a Newbie game, so the number of scum was a given. Speculation and assumptions about game design is not very fruitful without at least some data on the table, but I find that players often do it regardless of alignment. Interesting to know that more than 2 scum is a possibility.

Early game design speculation/assumption from someone who usually doesn't do it might be indicative of alignment. This is meta-research worthy.

[fferyllt]

his more recent posts look better though

agree.

I'm tentatively calling you town.

dude I'm either town or not

trust me when I say I wear my alignment on my sleeve and its easy to tell

My early town reads are usually good, especially after I have a baseline. But, they don't go unexamined.

[fferyllt]

It looks like a few of Ghostlin's most recent games were restarted/recovered after the Great Crash or w/e it's called. It's going to take a while to comb through older meta and I'm not sure how valid it will be.

However I did find a game where he posted something very similar to post 78: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3927794 He was town in that game. Not going to call that a town tell without some more meta diving.

[fferyllt]

Im not sure I like ffery's idea of using meta to get a read cause yes, Ghostlin may seem town for that statement cause he did it somewhere else, but players can just pick up on those things that people call them town for and just apply it for all the games they play in, so I dont think its completely reliable.

I agree. Which is part of the reason I said I wasn't calling it a town tell at this time.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: sword

Town read no longer tentative.

I am tempted to write off the Ghostlin/pope stuff ast t v t, but...not quite there.

[fferyllt]

PimHel, cant talk about an ongoing game.

By town ad no longer tentative, you are sure he is town because he voted sword?

Yes.

[fferyllt]

The tone of sword's post clanged pretty hard to me when I read it. And lo and behold, it drew Bacde's vote.

I'm taking a wait and see attitude. I want to read his catch-up post before getting too excited.

[fferyllt]

Back on Sword for a minute: I want to see his catch up post. If he tries to prod dodge again, he'll be a likely candidate.

It wasn't the prod dodge per se that clanged. That's all I'll say atm because I don't want to tell him what to fix in his next post.

[fferyllt]

he did put a vote down.

[fferyllt]

@Ffery
I don't see the change in tone from Omens. Could you give more input on this?
And I need some input from Bacde about this as well.

The apologetic tone of the post he made right before Bacde's vote sounded an off note to me. His next post looked better IMO.

[fferyllt]

@Pope, Ffery and Ghostlin
What do you guys think of Dr. P?

missed this earlier.

I am not liking parts of some of his posts. I'm trying to figure out specifics with a little precision so I can do a meta dive, but probably won't make much progress in that direction until later today or tomorrow due to other game commitments. I'm not liking TNE's contributions so far, either, but I get the impression the low content, low commitment style of play is typical of him.

[fferyllt]

I don't see what's wrong with asking for reads but abstaining from giving mine. I have the right to remain silent

Is the smilie supposed to somehow make this statement less terrible? it didn't work.

[fferyllt]

I'm not voting you right now because as terrible as that comment was, I can't imagine it getting past a scum player's self-censoring process.

[fferyllt]

Hamlet, never played with Hydras before, so I was wondering why was there an internal shaft or something

In my hydra with orcinus, we went through about half our first game with completely opposite reads on a couple of players. As in strong town read/strong scum read opposite. We didn't hit consensus on the players until about mid day 2.

I think the players were ready to strangle both of us due to the whipsaw effect. Hamlet doesn't look nearly as conflicted as that, and it's early yet anyway.

[fferyllt]

This game has gotten so slow. I need to reread so I can remember who the hell is in my scumpile.

[fferyllt]

Ok, so a complete reread has me leaning town on bacde and sword of omen. I go back and forth on TIP, but I have a really hard time believing that a scum player would unselfconsciously make so many crappy posts. Dr P is still bugging me.

This is a bad wagon. I'll get to it tomorrow why Dr P is a better option.

I wanna hear more of this

Me too.

bacde, how are you feeling about sword now?

[fferyllt]

I disagree with Ff's 252 because it opens up a huge pot of WIFOM and 'too dumb for scum.' This isn't a scum read, she reads pretty much town, but the arguments are off.

TNE's overcaution...I don't know if she's nervous or scum. There's no reason to flip-flop on wagons if chk included a vengeful townie and only scum would be afraid of it.

I think you simplify my position a little there. I am going back and forth because I know that too dumb for scum is not a truism, but IME it holds true a little more often than not.

I can't lynch vote for every damn stupid post I read. I don't have enough nearly enough votes to go around. So I rely on body of work. TIP's body of work isn't good atm, but the game is young.

re the rest of your post, Hamlet_B's refutation is sound.

[fferyllt]

Everyone should read Pope's ISO. He has dropped some scummy things, but overall, I have the feeling that he's trying to look for scum.
Just look at the explanations he has given for not voting Bacde at the start of the game (waiting for every player to post), just look at how he's grilling Ghostlin (though bad (as in bad, not scummy) arguments) and how he has been grilling Dr P lately.
I want players who find Pope scummy to explain why scum-Pope wouldn't vote Bacde.
I also want those players to look at the time when Pope asked for the reads from multiple players. He and Ghostlin were the ones who were attacking the most. By asking for other players their read, he gets other players to take a stance and get some information out of them. This weighs much more than what you find hypocritical (did I spell it right :S?) about him. Or look at his explanation about it.


Start looking at the big picture.

And Dr P?

[fferyllt]

So I see.

Your observation about 112 is spot on IMO, both in terms of the post itself and in terms of motivations possibly revealed by the stance.

The thing that's strikes me about Dr P's posts is that he's put a fair bit of effort into telegraphing his stances, which comes off as self-consciously laying down a smooth trajectory for his reads.

VOTE: Dr Pepper

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: Dr P

Don't wimp out, dude. defend yourself.

I counted votes from chk's last vote count and by my count my vote was L-2.

[fferyllt]

damn it now I wish Selkies were playing this game.

[fferyllt]

It would have to be me. :/

[fferyllt]

Guuuurl this is my turf. We do things a bit differently here. Sheep the Jiffy. Love the Jiffy.

If I ever get a glimmer of town read from you guys, I might.

[fferyllt]

I have Ghostlin as null/town. Otherwise not disagreeing with your reads.

I'm pretty sure this is a first. Scary.

[fferyllt]

I'm really tempted to think a sane readslist means that for once you could possibly be town.

[fferyllt]

If you come back and say that you're now leaning town on omen it may drive me to drink

[fferyllt]

@Ffery
I disagree with you about Jiffy sharing your reads = Jiffy-town.

I was being somewhat facetious about the town read. It is the first time ever that Majiffy's and my lists have lined up this closely, though. I usually have some major points of disagreement with his reads, whatever his alignment. I've played...8 or so games with him. two games here at MS.

I never assume Majiffy is town. I feel like Nacho is easier to read, but I got him wrong pretty badly once, which sullies an otherwise perfect multi-site record of figuring him out.

[fferyllt]

maybe less than 8 games played with Majiffy. I was including a couple games I moderated

[fferyllt]

Hey Vegita, I'm hoping the Nacho head can come out and play too.

[fferyllt]

I am not going to consider following Vegita's PoE list until I have a chance to chat with Nacho.

[fferyllt]

hey guys everyone is ignoring how ghostlin assumed that TIP was claiming vengeful

Not exactly, just holding

When I am scum I can get exceedingly paranoid about vengefuls and bombs, depending on mod meta and recent fads. but, that's me. doesn't necessarily translate to anyone else.

[fferyllt]

still waiting for Nacho to show up

[fferyllt]

I can either assume I'm playing this game with Majiffy, which means my Majiffy bullshit-shield is fully engaged, or I can assume that I'm playing with a Majiffy/Nacho hydra in which case Nacho's opinions and play might get through the perimeter.

[fferyllt]

I can either assume I'm playing this game with Majiffy, which means my Majiffy bullshit-shield is fully engaged, or I can assume that I'm playing with a Majiffy/Nacho hydra in which case Nacho's opinions and play might get through the perimeter.

Heh

Also y u no vote Pope. He has practically admitted he's scum.

Waiting for

Godot

Nacho.

[fferyllt]

Hey Nacho.

So you don't entirely agree with Majiffy's PoE list?

[fferyllt]

Pretty badly? When was this?

The amnesiac game.

[fferyllt]

I would have loved to ask you why/why not, but it's been a while since you've posted this.

I'll see if I can remember why I thought that at the time.

[fferyllt]

Pretty badly? When was this?

The amnesiac game.

That's what I thought, good. Just making sure I didn't play an awesome scum game while blackout drunk or something.

I wish you guys had held off a night on killing me. I'm really curious if the mild suspicions that were finally starting to dawn would have lasted into day 2.

[fferyllt]

By the way, anyone else seeing the Amished tell in the way both heads reacted to DrP?

IME that's not a dependable tell. I mostly see people drop it ironically.

[fferyllt]

Finally we can move on from this!
UNVOTE: Vegito
So what now?

his vote change changes your read? why?

[fferyllt]

jesus christ.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: Pope
In case Nacho unvoted on me.

Nacho voted TNE with actual good reasons.

jesus christ.

What are you looking to convey with this post?

irritation.

[fferyllt]

Irritation at what, specifically?

I thought it was pretty obvious.

I'm irritated that Vegito apparently can't agree on who they want to vote.

Now I know how people must have felt about me and orcinus when we/Selkies had opposite reads on some players in the borkgame. Though we did reach a working compromise until things settled a bit.

[fferyllt]

3) Experience does not alleviate

their scum slot

. They would be null to you as well, since DrP and Vegito share the same slot.

It's the same slot. I don't know if it is a a scum slot.

[fferyllt]

hey you guys are still ignoring ghostlin

thats the best place to look right now

Pope can wait

Is your case for voting ghostlin purely the vengeful thing?

[fferyllt]

*In the first above syllogism, replace Y with Z in the minor premise.

This makes me want to lynch you.

[fferyllt]

Did someone not like their logic class?

I wouldn't do what I do professionally if I hated logic.

The reason it makes me want to lynch you is because as I said the last time you applied symbolic logic to a player's informal English, it's irrelevant to what the person is trying to say. And you were all yeah no it still applies.

You were scum in that game, so now I want to lynch you. And you know what else? Nacho dropped his tell!

VOTE: Vegito

[fferyllt]

^ And you think your vote is better suited on me than this, Ffery?

TIP would be a policy vote and I consider policy voting to be a last resort. I was giving ghostlin some serious consideration despite Nacho's tell before you let loose with the symbolic logic.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: vegito

I just noticed that TIP put you at L-1. I'm not happy with that. ATM I intend to put my vote back, but I want more discussion with Nacho before I do that.

[fferyllt]

according to the last vote count, there were already 2 votes. I didn't want some idiot hammering while I looked for unvotes.

[fferyllt]

according to the last vote count, there were already 2 votes. I didn't want some idiot hammering while I looked for unvotes.

let me know before you put anyone else at L-1

I'm serious

you need to vote for Ghostlin

My vote was L-2, so I'm not sure why you are scolding me.

[fferyllt]

Ffery I think you're going to be sorely disappointed when you realize your meta tells on both myself and Nacho are worthless.

The Nacho tell is not precisely a scum tell, which is why I want to talk with him some more.

p-edit. and...post 456 has a townish feel to it.

[fferyllt]

whole lotta no u going on itt.

[fferyllt]

Fuzz, how would you compare Nacho's posts in this game to his day 1 posts in the amnesiac game?

[fferyllt]

If you come back and say that you're now leaning town on omen it may drive me to drink

I'd say start drinking but the liquor store is closed and I'd hate for you to drink alone.


Updated:
Town
{PimHel,

Ghostlin

,

Bacde

,

Omen

, fferylt}

Scum
{

TheIrishPope

,

TNE

,

Hamlet

}

Bolded are stronger, italicized are weaker.

Feel pretty good about this game being over if we just lynch through my scum reads, though.

Town
{PimHel, Bacde, fferylt, TheIrishPope}

Undefined
{TNE, Hamlet, Omen, TNE}

I'm thinking Hamlet. Though Bacde's pretty determined about Ghostlin and I have him as town.

[fferyllt]

So... you don't think I'm a PR?

In the newbie games, there's a lot of emphasis on where in the bandwagon development you claim, and on how you go about hammering. Elsewhere on the board it's kind of assumed that you know these things, though mistakes still occasionally happen.

[fferyllt]

I'm thinking Hamlet. Though Bacde's pretty determined about Ghostlin and I have him as town.

I need to see more from them.

How do you feel about TNE?

He seems kind of more agreeable than I'm used to, but I don't have any completed games with him to go by.

[fferyllt]

So... you don't think I'm a PR?

In the newbie games, there's a lot of emphasis on where in the bandwagon development you claim, and on how you go about hammering. Elsewhere on the board it's kind of assumed that you know these things, though mistakes still occasionally happen.

Alright, I am sick of this. Don't talk about newbies, newbie games; don't even think about the word "newbie." We are in a Micro. Don't consider my join date, don't consider anything else. Focus on the game. Focus on the plays. Focus on the intentions. That is all.

So... you don't think I'm a PR?

I don't think you're town. I also think there's only one role that would have softclaimed in the situation you did, and it's not the one you claimed.

Which is...?

well then don't freak out when people are pissed at you for half-outing at L-2.

[fferyllt]

But as I have no proof that you are what you claim, and an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary, why would I be scum for continuing to vote you?

Can you phone Nacho or something?

[fferyllt]

Thanks. We are kinda getting down to the wire here.

[fferyllt]

this game

[fferyllt]

TNE has limited access until 5/21. But, he was posting yesterday.

I'm a little concerned about lynching someone who may not be around to defend themselves or claim.

Will think on it a bit. A short bit.

[fferyllt]

I've meta'd him for other games. My experiential meta is thin on the ground atm, but I trust it more than cold-read ISOs.

[fferyllt]

"agreeable" is not what I've gathered about his town game btw.

[fferyllt]

I'm likiely to vote TNE. Want to know what Bacde's last post was about.

[fferyllt]

with 16 hours to go, yeah we do.

VOTE: thenewearth

[fferyllt]

Finally someone who knows what I'm talking about
A TNE lynch is not beneficial at all
So fferyllt, if you are in fact Town, hammer Vegito.

Yeah chivvying me to change my vote always works like a charm.

[fferyllt]

Is there some reason you want this day to end before Bacde comes back and makes his announcement?

[fferyllt]

This day will not end in a nolynch. Calm down.

[fferyllt]

because the majority of players aren't idiots.

[fferyllt]

Why don't you vote me, then, instead of TNE?

Anyone reading the thread knows the answer to this question.

If you are intentionally trying to be a huge distracting annoyance, then well done.

[fferyllt]

I'm not 100% sure Fuzzy has given permission, but it comes down to the fact that I think Ghostlin v. Pope is TvT and I don't trust Vegito

at all

VOTE: Vegito

L-1

-B

I never trust Majiffy. So far, I think Nacho's play looks town. I have a minor niggle that has gotten in the way of "you have my axe" level sheeping of Nacho's read, but hopefully more convo with Nacho will sort that.

[fferyllt]

Ok...went back to read Nacho's first few posts and I found this.

Town
{PimHel, Bacde, fferylt, TheIrishPope}

Undefined
{TNE, Hamlet, Omen, TNE}

What would Town Nacho be doing differently?

[fferyllt]

We have 4 and a half hours left.

I'm not too happy with this game atm.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: thenewearth

[fferyllt]

agree.

@Mod is a day 1 extension possible?

[fferyllt]

In prior MS games, I have been willing to change my vote at the last minute to avert a nolynch when the person I helped lynch was a null or scum read. That's not the case this time. I'm leaning town on Vegito so I won't be voting him. Don't count on me to change my vote.

[fferyllt]

TNE is L-2 and Vegito is L-1.

[fferyllt]

ok, so less than 2 hours...
I'd prefer not to have a no-lynch
my vote is already on the DocP/Vegito slot so i can't hammer...

TNE was on my watch list so i could move it over to him, however he'd still be at L-1 and we'd need still need someone to hammer...although I didn’t any votes on him in the last VC..Was he a last minute alternative wagon?

Two more votes on this page - Bacde and me.

[fferyllt]

Thanks, chkflip! <3

[fferyllt]

Unvote. Vote: TNE.

What's your rationale?

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE:

thought we were at a pressure deadline for some reason

thank goodness

We were. chkflip gave us an extra 4 days.

[fferyllt]

Bacde my curiosity about your announcement is burning.

Or maybe it's the bourbon.

[fferyllt]

[fferyllt]

@Ffery (Post 433)
What’s Nacho’s tell?

If I said that out loud he'd stop doing it.

[fferyllt]

Bacde my curiosity about your announcement is burning.

Or maybe it's the bourbon.

or maybe it's the fact that
NOTHING IS FUCKING HAPPENING

didn't care. bourbon.

Now I care.

[fferyllt]

@Ffery (Post 433)
What’s Nacho’s tell?

If I said that out loud he'd stop doing it.

So the town read comes from something else?
And I'm asking because Nacho isn't acting like the town-nacho I know.

I'm listening.

[fferyllt]

Nacho is as town very aggresive. If he finds somebody scummy, he will do anything he can to get that player lynched.
But look at his posts in this game. He only points out the things he doesn't like. He doesn't get into the arguments. He points them out and then leaves it alone. That's not town-nacho.

I forget who, but someone made this exact point in the Newbie game we played that finished a few days ago. I developed a town read on Nacho, which was mostly to do with the trajectory of his posts along with the lack of the telltale tell. It isn't exactly a scum tell, but it narrows things down considerably in concert with other stuff.

Trajectory is hard to follow here because Majiffy keeps getting in the way.

[fferyllt]

My partner is also aggressive as fuck and does all the pushing that I need done. I don't mind being the passive to his active.

All my hydras are with aggressive as fuck players. I've been doing the same thing. It's bleeding into my main account behaviors. Haven't decided if that's a good thing.

[fferyllt]

I'm in a holding pattern with TNE replacing out.

[fferyllt]

I am insulted.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: mrbungle

liked his analysis as far as it went. Awaiting the scum pile analysis.

[fferyllt]

good to know. tks.

[fferyllt]

That bandwagon hasn't really budged in over a week.

I dunno. Nacho has a town read on the Fuzzy half of the Hamlet hydra. I think Majiffy has a town read on sword_of_omens. Tunneling the scummiiest person on that bandwagon is an attractive idea, but he role-claimed voyeur. That's the crux of the standstill.

Bacde would you please get in here and talk?

[fferyllt]

if you took away pope's claim how would you be reading him? because ii'm sorta ok with calling him town even without the roleclaim

I somewhat regretfully believe he is town.

[fferyllt]

I'm weighing Nacho's reads. On my own, I have Hamlet somewhere close to null/null-scum. I had a town read on sword but it's grown pretty stale. Bacde is stale too, actually.

The game is p much adrift in the Sargasso Sea atm.

[fferyllt]

oh nvm about the announcement btw

Let's talk about who to lynch then.

[fferyllt]

because of thinking TIP was soft-claiming vengeful?

[fferyllt]

We've got a little over a day left.

Vegito, how would you feel about lynching sword or hamlet?

[fferyllt]

dammit fferyllt..... you seem to be the only one interested in chatting up the thread at the level i'm used to from the site i came from... and i have a town read on you and mostly agree with your reads

BORING

i guess... which lynch do you prefer atm? the only gripe i have with your play is that altough you're active, it seems like you're sorta waiting for others to take action instead of pushing a candidate yourself. we can't really have that with the state of widespread disagreetment and general apathy towards the lynch that town is showing right now.

My mafia background prior to MS is almost all short games that are done and dusted within a week unless it's a cast of thousands.

I like your case on swords. (I see he's responded, but I haven't read it yet). Yesterday I was leaning hamlet, but Nacho's observations weigh on me. I have a tendency to listen to him when I have a town read on him. Playing games with him right now may be a detriment to developing my MS-style game. I'm also playing a ton of hydra games at the moment, and the hesitation/synch-up process seems to be bleeding into my solo games wrt to listening to my town reads.

So...hamlet or swords is where I'm at, and I'm probably putting too much thought into trying to figure alternatives that are likely to unseat Vegito's wagon because that wagon is absolute shit and I hate everybody on it.

Gonna read swords now.

[fferyllt]

ugh.

swords, less about why you can't post and more about your reads please.

[fferyllt]

Having another look at ghostlin.

[fferyllt]

Day One Vote Count IV
1. TheIrishPope (3) - Vegito, Ghostlin, thenewearth
2. sword_of_omens (0)
3. fferyllt (0)
4. PimHel (0)
5. thenewearth (0)
6. Ghostlin (1) - Bacde
7. Vegito (3) - PimHel, sword_of_omens, TheIrishPope
8. Bacde (0)
9. Hamlet (0)

NINE ALIVE, FIVE LYNCH
DEADLINE: (expired on 2013-05-24 12:00:00)

TIP started his agonizingly slow claim process shortly after this votecount.

[fferyllt]

not sure what you're getting at...

you asked "what pope wagon?"

That was the wagon - vegito, ghostlin and your predecessor.

[fferyllt]

lol i have literally no idea what i'm being asked to do

I thought he was asking you to focus some attention on that wagon.

Pimhel, all of your scum reads were on the pope wagon. Would you expect that of a scum team?

[fferyllt]

hey I can possibly confirm TIP if he targets me tonight

It's starting to really bother me how little you're posting this game. It's not what I expected after the first game we played together.

[fferyllt]

@sword, So you still have a scum read on Vegito? shit.

your recent posts have somewhat freshened up my stale town read.

Would like to know why you feel Ghost is town if you have time.

[fferyllt]

Sword, vote Vegito then.
If he flips town you can lynch me and it's all good, right?

This is giving me hives.

[fferyllt]

It feels like NEARLY EVERYBODY IN THIS GAME is analyzing posts in isolation, not looking at thought progressions. HOURS from deadline.

It's pissing me off.

Now that I've got that off my chest.

TIP is like a mime pretending to be a mirror - he reflects back every argument that someone makes about him, and I really think the reason he's a serial tunneler comes down to that - mirroring back whoever is tunneling him.. Defending that way is alignment-null. I hope. And it's terrible, terrible play for a townie.

VOTE: Hamlet

Nacho, you are welcome to try and talk me out of it.

[fferyllt]

fferylit help me out here. why is sword town?

I hope you're not wanting a wall because you're not getting one.

Initially, I liked sword's analysis in 181 and 182. I also liked his engagement with Dr P. I was leaning scum on Dr P, but kept coming back to a t v t impression from the Dr P/Sword posts. I eventually voted Dr P, but the specifics of his rage-y quit tipped that scale to town.

the main thing that bothers me about sword is his sticking with the Vegito wagon until...today?, but everyone on that wagon has been adamant about it. If I'm wrong about that slot, I won't be living it down anytime soon.

[fferyllt]

Vegito is at L-1.

This is not true. Pimhel has is vote on Ghost.

[fferyllt]

This is insane. If there's a vote that 5 people can agree on in this game I CAN'T SEE IT.

Vegito why didn't you claim your role?

[fferyllt]

Nacho tell me why we shouldn't lynch Hamlet.

[fferyllt]

I did some research because I personally haven't seen many voyeur roles handed out where I usually play mafia, and I got to thinking that it would be a pretty safe thing to claim if you didn't want to be cc'd. Turns out chkflip had the role in a recent game, and it's showed up in a handful of other recent games.

That's one of the reasons I'm not deathtunneling you atm, TIP.

[fferyllt]

Similar PRs? Voyeur is useless without other roles to compliment it.
Ffery, my townread on Hamlet is stale, but my scumread on Swords is strong. I'm tired of Majiffy pushing Pope as scum, so I'm going to try calling him tonight so I can yell at him in person.

Damn you I feel like I could follow you to my doom this time. I have a feeling this game is going to invalidate that tell I've been using since the first game I saw you drop it.

I'm backing away from the capslock button.

What's the basis of your swords read? Majiffy had him as town.

[fferyllt]

Sell me on Swords town and I'm completely down to vote Hamlet with you.

775 is the best I've got. Your point about the wall of excuses for lurking resonates. It's similar to mrbungle's take on that post.

(glad you think mrbungles is town too. I'm starting to wonder if I by default think TL-influenced play is town play)

[fferyllt]

He did reply to my request for a couple reads, but the effort level compared to his response to mrbungles was pretty minimal.

[fferyllt]

Also, look at A Dance With Dragons and tell me if you see what sword did here but still really hasn't done in this game.

oh god multifaction. Was he something resembling town?

[fferyllt]

making an attempt to read the thread despite being behind by several pages?

Reading the thread and actually showing evidence of it. Sword catches up like I do; he reads through the thread, picks out things that he finds interesting, asks questions, all that good stuff. In this thread, his long posts are A) reads, or B) attacking reads which means that he's doing things for a purpose. Giving reads so he looks town, attacking reads to push through a wagon. The narrow play this game is different from his usual game (he does get a bit tunneley, but when he's tunnely, his reads form organically and aren't "BIG WALL POST OF READS" "TUNNEL SCUMREADS FROM BIG WALL POST OF READS").

Yep, I'm seeing that.

Ok.

VOTE: swords

[fferyllt]

ok.

UNVOTE: swords

Pope?

[fferyllt]

We've got a little over 17 hours now. I plan to put my vote back on swords in a few hours barring a staggering development.

[fferyllt]

nacho or majiffy?

[fferyllt]

Vote:

Ok, based on the vote format (bold vs vote bbcode) this is Nacho. Or Majiffy is being a bastard.

[fferyllt]

Unvote; Vote Ghostlin

Clarify this vote. What do you see scummy about me over Vegito or anyone else, and why would you try to build a wagon on me now?

Even better. Your reads, now.

omg can we plz lynch this

Bacde, stop acting weird as fuck and pay attention to relevant things.

1. TheIrishPope
2. sword_of_omens
3. fferyllt
4. PimHel
5. mrbungle thenewearth
6. Ghostlin
7. Vegito DoctorPepper
8. Bacde
9. Hamlet

Pope, ffery, PimHel, bungle, Ghostlin all probably non negotiably town.
Swords, Hamlet, Bacde are where I'm looking at the moment.

VOTE: Bacde

[fferyllt]

is there any way to find a player's town/scum games other than going to their profile and digging through their post history? a database or something?

also veg.... who are the three major villians, i know nothing about dbz

I keep my wiki page up to date.

[fferyllt]

huh. forgot I'd clicked some posts earlier. Was following the Vegito trajectory on the Bacde vote.

[fferyllt]

Unvote; Vote Ghostlin

Clarify this vote. What do you see scummy about me over Vegito or anyone else, and why would you try to build a wagon on me now?

Even better. Your reads, now.

omg can we plz lynch this

Bacde, stop acting weird as fuck and pay attention to relevant things.

1. TheIrishPope
2. sword_of_omens
3. fferyllt
4. PimHel
5. mrbungle thenewearth
6. Ghostlin
7. Vegito DoctorPepper
8. Bacde
9. Hamlet

Pope, ffery, PimHel, bungle, Ghostlin all probably non negotiably town.
Swords, Hamlet, Bacde are where I'm looking at the moment.

VOTE: Bacde

care to explain your reasoning?

all you did was quote vegito's

I'm sheeping Nacho.

For myself, your announcement that suddenly wasn't important any more, your low quantity of posting in general but especially in the run-up to nightfall when we're going nuts trying to work out who's scum has erased a ton of townread you built up earlier in the game. In the last game we played you chivvied me repeatedly to change my vote to your scum read on day 1. You were trying to herd the town cats.

[fferyllt]

I'm sheeping Nacho.

For myself, your announcement that suddenly wasn't important any more, your low quantity of posting in general but especially in the run-up to nightfall when we're going nuts trying to work out who's scum has erased a ton of townread you built up earlier in the game. In the last game we played you chivvied me repeatedly to change my vote to your scum read on day 1. You were trying to herd the town cats.

lol the announcement that became unimportant was because I didn't fully understand my role

that addresses a relatively small part of what's made me uneasy about you.

[fferyllt]

^^ mime

[fferyllt]

explain your ghostlin scum read again.

[fferyllt]

explain your ghostlin scum read again.

ghostlin assumed for NO REASON that there was a vengeful in the game

that pinged me off, but after that I realized that NOTHING ghostlin has been posting has made me think "oh geez thats town"

and the ONLY thing that people have been townreading him for was the tone of a post

whenever I make a read and its wrong, the biggest reason why would be because my read is based on tone

do you have examples of scummy looking posts?

I'll ISO again.

Is it Majiffy that has Ghostlin as town or Nacho? I think it's Nacho.

[fferyllt]

this game.

UNVOTE: Bacde

Nacho or Majiffy whoever it is please explain why you think Ghostlin is town. I've read his ISO and the thing that jumps out at me is that he was awfully civil in that horrible exchange with TIP.

[fferyllt]

haha.

Ok, I'm hitting the road before I think about putting down another vote.

[fferyllt]

Nacho or Majiffy whoever it is please explain why you think Ghostlin is town. I've read his ISO and the thing that jumps out at me is that he was awfully civil in that horrible exchange with TIP.

hamlet's his partner.

I figured that much out.

[fferyllt]

being civil in a heated argument is more of a scumtell imo

yeah that was my point.

[fferyllt]

Vote: Ghostlin

why aren't you going back to TIP?

Nacho is not the one who's tunneling TIP.

[fferyllt]

guys, mafia is serious business. catching up is not supposed to make me laugh.

So L-1?

This is my intent to hammer.

[fferyllt]

how long from now to you intend on doing it?

and right now i kinda feel like a retard because i'm voting for ghostlin yet i don't really have any idea why.... it just feels like the right lynch and everyone else is either a strong town read or a basically confirmed town read (the masons)

Ghostlin hasn't role claimed has he?

[fferyllt]

can't think of one.

well maybe one. but probably not.

[fferyllt]

Vegito, Pope, what did you learn last night?

[fferyllt]

How is hamlet confirmed?

he's the player I plan to vote.

[fferyllt]

Wasn't Hamlet Bacde's mason partner thingy?

We were talking about Hamlet being Ghostlin's scum partner at the end of day 1, not bacde's mason buddy.

[fferyllt]

lol @ mafia thinking that it was better to kill Pim than me

and also lol @ mafia not killing the vengeful townie at night

WAIT A GOSHDARN MINUTE
You were calling Ghostlin out for mentioning vengeful!
SCUM SCUM SCUM
VOTE: Ghostlin

the fuck?

[fferyllt]

How is hamlet confirmed?

he's the player I plan to vote.

I don't think thats a good plan

mostly because it was Vegito's plan

I think you should think for yourself or follow me

also wait for Vegito to say what he learned before we take any action, obv

Hamlet was my pick for scum yesterday. I trusted the Ghostlin wagon. And yes, I trusted Nacho both as town and as far as his reads go. My read on Nacho will have to change before I consider Vegito scum.

[fferyllt]

Wow, people trust vegito more than the confirmed town mason who's partner just died

Seriously 2 people in thread have expressed this opinion

I trust you are town bacde.

I"m still remembering you trying to talk me off 42 and onto yolo in that newbie game though.

[fferyllt]

we all have our moments of shame.

I woke up partway thru day 2.

[fferyllt]

What is it about Vegito that makes you think he is in the frame, scumwise?

The hydra dissonance is deafening. I'm just flat out not paying attention to Majiffy this game.

[fferyllt]

I've played with them both a few times. It's not hard to tell who posts what.

Barking up the wrong tree repeatedly doesn't exactly fit my mental model of town nacho. Incredible dissonance, though.

there's also that pesky tell.

[fferyllt]

Vegito, Pope, what did you learn last night?

Hamlet targeted PimHel.

VOTE: Hamlet

I'm just flat out not paying attention to Majiffy this game.

Ok.

It's day 2. You usually make more sense on day 2.

is that 3 votes on him?

[fferyllt]

Yeah that's L-1.

[fferyllt]

I want to hear from Hamlet before voting.

[fferyllt]

not quickhammering.

[fferyllt]

man this unseemly haste.

[fferyllt]

Is waiting to hear from hamlet pointless in your opinion?

[fferyllt]

well hamlet is gonna come in and either say vegito is lying and try to push for vegito's lynch, or hamlet will say that they are a power role so that's why they visited pim. so.............

You are like that owl that bites into the center of the tootsie roll pop.

[fferyllt]

it's a mystery.

[fferyllt]

I am Hercule, the town miller fisherman and I also want to flip hamlet.

[fferyllt]

I expected at least an indrawn breath.

[fferyllt]

so does bungle seem suspicious to anyone else yet?

I read part of mrbungle's newbie game with Nacho last night. His play style got on several players' nerves. But, I thought the other players were mostly being stupid about it. He's toned it down some in this game, but replacing in so close to nightfall made his rapid-fire style advantageous.

The one thing that stands out in his play compared to the newbie game (I've read partway through day 2 so far) was his voting Ghostlin despite claiming to see nothing in his iso that said scum. He used his vote liberally day 1 of the newbie game, moved it around almost every time he shifted his focus of questioning, and almost always indicated he was willing to lynch the person he was voting. Though, for a pressure vote to have any weight at all, you have to look sincerely willing to lynch the player.

I'm somewhat skeptical about meta I didn't personally experience, so I'm reading that game page by page, not skimming his iso.

So, right now, I'm not feeling strong suspicions.

I'd like to hear from Nacho about this.

I'm also feeling like town is seriously overpowered, even with a nexus and a miller.

[fferyllt]

I've been told that my play style is similar to hers. I don't see it.

[fferyllt]

and if you wanna know why I voted for ghostlin.... well so do I lol. it came down to everyone else being either confirmed town or a very strong town read.

there is this thing that occasionally happens on tl where people decide that none of the wagons are any good and everyone scrambles to throw together a last minute lynch. bandwagons pop up every 5 minutes and you never know who's about to reach l-1 by the next time you refresh the page. so people go from one wagon to the next, being careless with votes and generally not giving a fuck. eventually you find a bandwagon that everyone likes, and nobody can think of a good reason not to lynch that person. and the surprising thing is often these lynches result in scum lynches. they have a better success rate than lurker lynches even. it's sorta like musical chairs in that scum have to be more cautious with their vote, therefore they can't really keep up with the pace of everyone else, and eventually it sorta becomes obvious who should get lynched.

and from my point of view that is what happened yesterday. i hated both the pope and the vegito lynch and i wanted to kill a lurker so i pushed who i thought was the scummiest of them, sword. then he came in the thread and said some things that made me hate the sword lynch, so myself and everyone else backed down off that. then vegito brought up the bacde lynch which i thought was dumb, and turns out, it was a dumb lynch. so at that point I had vegito, pope, sword, bcade, and pimhelm all as people who i didn't want to lynch. i should probably include fferylit in that group as i had a town read on her, just not as strong as the others. so that leaves ghost+hamlet. i probably would have voted either of them honestly

bcade, for me the main thing that caused the ghost lynch was the post that saved the town

The last minute scramble is something I like about the places other than MS where I have played. I haven't seen much of this kind of play here prior to this game. And I agree, the frequency of that kind of scramble netting scum is higher than one might expect. it's the town herd effect* versus the non-herd movements that scum players tend to make when the game suddenly moves fast.

[fferyllt]

Hamlet got tracked to a dead guy and so he dies. that will end the game.

My read on Nacho is flaking around the edges. If there's a day three there will be lead paint chips everywhere.

[fferyllt]

the only way nacho is getting lynched if there;s a D3 is if hamlet is a VT or a role that doesn't make him visit people

do you really think that the roles in this game is that town favored? that hamlet is some power role in addition to the masons and the million other claims?

I just reread nacho's earliest posts in the game. He agreed with bacde about Ghostlin looking scummy. And then didn't even list Ghostlin in his reads list. And later said he wanted to wait a day on Ghostlin.

There's the lay of the game. And there's what people say and don't say. Sometimes those streams of data are in conflict.

I am not including any theoretical hamlet role in my thoughts about game balance - just what has been claimed. tracker, voyeur, executioner, [ability thief, vengeful] masons, nexus. And a fisherman who is also a miller as a potentially anti-town offset against all that.

I'm not arguing that hamlet shouldn't die. I think he has to. I'm putting my what-next thoughts in the thread for tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

because I have a sick feeling there could very well be a tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

jumping to ghostlin next instead of hamlet, though.

I dunno. counter intuitive for scum to do it so late? but bacde was probably going to take the mantle at that point.

[fferyllt]

its weird to me that we have a miller and no cop

anyone else?

any speculation I'd make about that should be suspect.

we need to finish the massclaim btw

Who's left? Just hamlet I think.

[fferyllt]

jumping to ghostlin next instead of hamlet, though.

I dunno. counter intuitive for scum to do it so late? but bacde was probably going to take the mantle at that point.

wait what are you talking about here

I'm talking about the final wagon going ghostlin's direction instead of hamlet's. Post 920.

[fferyllt]

The only weird thing afaik is that I'm also a fisherman. I have a menu of one shots I can fish for at night. The more powerful the one-shot the smaller the chance that I will be successful. The best chance items are 25%. My fishing expedition last night was a failure.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Fisherman

unlike the wiki description, I didn't get to go fishing on night 0.

there should be a prize for the person who correctly guesses what I fished for. I'll have to think on that.

The very slight chance I'll fish out something useful before I'm dead or the game ends is the only reason I didn't claim miller in my first post of the game. That's been my standard procedure as miller in the past.

[fferyllt]

I was a non-self-aware miller in a game with 3 cops of various sanities and a role cop once.

I was eventually viewed by the sane cop, of course.

[fferyllt]

whoo!

good work mrbungles!

[fferyllt]

so I assume the point of the fisherman role was to make me think twice about claiming miller day 1. It worked. barely.

[fferyllt]

thanks for running the game, chkflip!

[fferyllt]

For me, it really dragged at times. The day 1 bandwagons before that final scramble were so terrible.

[fferyllt]

Vegito was a fun hydra to figure out.

you two should play more games with that account.

[fferyllt]

also I hope I didn't upset you with that crack about not paying attention to you Majiffy. I did focus more on Nacho's opinions but it's mostly because his style of play makes more sense to me. You're more into optimizing strategy, I'm more into tuning my reads and finding other town players to work with.

It was frustratingly difficult to work with players in this game because of all the people I thought were town who were sitting on your wagon for the latter half of the game.

mrbungle's replace-in helped to shake up day 1. Maybe it would have happened anyway, but he seemed to be a good catalyst.

[fferyllt]

sometimes, the best thing you can do replacing into a game is rehabilitate the slot. The next wagon to arise is that much more likely to be a scum wagon.

[fferyllt]

your comment about my having little effect for the number of posts I made was right, mrbungle. I had difficulty getting stuck into the game before vegito replaced in. The early interactions looked like a lot of town on town squabbling for the most part. The main thing I came away from all that was a town read on bacde and a false scum read on Dr Pepper.

I went back to the start of the thread and reread a couple of times because I would literally forget my impressions of players. I don't think that has ever happened before in a game.

[fferyllt]

yeah, I agree that dr pepper should have looked town after that quit. I'm not sure that scum players are less prone to quitting or flaking, though. They just don't generally make as big a deal of it.

that's actually exploitable. A lot of site meta is exploitable, actually.

[fferyllt]

but yeah, i guess i can agree that when the rules about replacing out are so lax, scum might be as likely to do it as town are.

just not in the manner that drppr did

that's the exploitable part.

[fferyllt]

Definitely haven't sworn off playing games with you Dr P.

One of the advantages to this game format with multiple weeks per game day is that you can step away from a game and give it a rest for a few hours if you need to.

[fferyllt]

chkflip are you taking pre-ins?

[fferyllt]

yes please. though I might wind up playing in a hydra.

[fferyllt]

probably much more hilarious to watch than to play.

[fferyllt]

I don't think mafia games could be run to completion here without a fairly liberal replacement policy due to the sheer length of games. I can commit to a week or two of play pretty easily. In 2 or 3 months (or more), there's a lot more opportunity for stuff to happen.

[fferyllt]

irl stuff is fine. getting bored, mad, etc isn't

True. but especially in the newbie games, I think some players simply find that forum mafia is not what they thought it was, find the level of pressure unexpected and unacceptable, etc.

MS can't exactly hold someone's feet to the fire and force them to play.

[fferyllt]

game bans happen, but I think it's mostly for rule-breaking. I've seen players who replaced out of multiple games recently be turned down to play a new game. I think it was mod discretion. I've also seen what looked like a temporary limit on the number of games someone could play after they'd failed to show up after prods in a number of games.

[fferyllt]

uh

I forgot to say that this was the funniest post in the thread, though your first post about having already sent in the execution was a close second.

I couldn't bring myself to reply because of all of bacde's planning and thinking, so I just sat back and waited for the bombshell.

It would have been hilarious if hamlet had been town.

[fferyllt]

add you to flowchart?

[fferyllt]

my reads weren't good. but I got a few key ones right.