Newbie 1371: Max Steel, Max Finished!

[patzer]

I just replaced in.

...so, DBK and Anorway are here again? I was in Newbie 1353 too.
I was going to put a random vote on DBK, but that would put him at L-1! this game is moving fast.
VOTE: TMTOLBTWNTOF
For having an annoying username.

[patzer]

RQS (

Random Question Stage

) time. I'd like people to answer, since activity's already getting pretty stale around here.
1) What are your thoughts on "Lynching All Liars" and "Lynching All Lurkers?"
2) Why are you scum?
3) Why shouldn't I vote you right now?

1) I haven't seen either of them being used before, but they both seem like they should only be used as a last resort, to prevent the game stagnating. Ideally we should be trying to lynch the scum, and not use policy lynches.
2) Doesn't make sense, since I am town. What did you expect me to say?
3) Because you should be trying to vote for someone scummy.

[patzer]

Nope, a game where Bo and I were scum. It was Newbie 1353, and apparently half of the players in that game is here in this one.

That's actually why I replaced into this game, so I would have an idea of some players' metas.

- Why are you scum?

Do you expect someone to answer "yes" to this question?

I'm guessing not, since the question was "Why are you scum" not "Are you scum".

[patzer]

I'll reread the thread and post my thoughts soon.
I'm in British Summer Time (UTC+1), but I'm often awake in the middle of the night (as you can see)

[patzer]

I think the "Lynching All Liars" could be safest thing to do. So i agree with that. I don't agree with "Lynching All Lurkers" because you never know what the reason is. Maybe they have computer issues or a real life emergency.

Okay I actually sort of agree with your opinion. I wasn't saying that was my opinion it was just how it seemed all the players in this were leaning.

These posts contradict each other.
at the moment PhD looks like the most likely scum.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: PhDScar

[patzer]

Pretty sure PhD isn't self-voting, Nacho.

You're a sharp one.
~Nacho

He didn't say i was voting myself.

that's because when the mod makes a mistake they tend to correct it. mods can edit.

[patzer]

I think the "Lynching All Liars" could be safest thing to do. So i agree with that. I don't agree with "Lynching All Lurkers" because you never know what the reason is. Maybe they have computer issues or a real life emergency.

Okay I actually sort of agree with your opinion.

I wasn't saying that was my opinion

it was just how it seemed all the players in this were leaning.

These posts contradict each other.
at the moment PhD looks like the most likely scum.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: PhDScar

Sorry for the confusion all I was trying to say is that what he wrote was well written and made me rethink my opinion. Also it isn't very far how you those quotes out of context. So I ask anyone whom read this to go back to when I said the first quote and read up to last it should fill in some gaps.

Nope. you're lying. At least, in the underlined part you were lying. In Post 31, you wrote that you thought Lynch all Liars was good. In Post 48, you wrote that you thought that all the players were leaning that way.

Bo's counterargument was in post 51

. Before then no-one had tried to refute your lynch all liars suggestion. Therefore, in post 48, you must have still thought Lynch all Liars was best, since nobody had refuted it yet. Therefore your statement "I wasn't saying that was my opinion" was false.

[patzer]

To elaborate, maybe you did agree with Bo's opinion after post 51, but Lynch all Liars had been your opinion before then.

[patzer]

I'm not lying. Yes the “lynch all liars” was my opinion but I said everyone was leaning to lynch liars if it's that possible resort. Bo responded to the second and I said that wasn't my opinion and that that's true because I said let's just lynch people who lie no matter what. Also that's not my opinion anymore because I realize that's a shitty idea that would just help the scum more than us. Don’t you get what I’m trying to say?

I know it's not your opinion any more, but I was trying to expose your lie earlier.
So you are saying that Bo was asking you whether you you supported lynching liars (as a last resort) and you said no because you supported lynching liars under all circumstances. even though that's technically true I can't imagine anyone saying that, because it was quite obvious what bo meant.

Also, I don't like how you've been trying to change the subject a lot.

[patzer]

Patzer: ...wanted to justify his vote but not say what Majiffy had already covered.

This is correct. I saw several arguments against you but chose to mention those that Majiffy had not already mentioned.

[patzer]

I can understand the argument that you could be town, in my first game I very nearly got lynched (as town) and my answers looked similar to yours. In this case, I think you are scum because your logic has been inconsistent and you have made far more scumslips than I did in that game. It's Newbie 1343, Day 2 if you were wondering.

[patzer]

The previous post was directed at PHD.

[patzer]

UNVOTE:

I'm not sure, but I think PhD's at L-1, and I'd rather look back at the game before voting him and risking a lynch. The Sakura wagon looks promising, so I'll have a look at her posts.

[patzer]

I reread the thread from page 6.
Now PhD is looking neutral. His posts have been natural, and I could easily see him being town. slight FoS on Sakura, she has said some things that may be coming from a scum point of view, but not certain by any means. I'm not sure what to do now, I don't have any major reads and from my past experience here that is regarded as a scumtell...

[patzer]

For some reason I remember putting Patzer in my town pile. Why?

He's neutral at best to me now.

your reaction doesn't surprise me, but what am I expected to do? I have to say something... if I don't have any major reads Ill just say so.

[patzer]

It's not what you said recently about no reads. When Majiffy said some of your posts weren't good I agreed, but then I tried to remember why I had you in a town pile in my catch up.

that is more sensible. I had assumed it was talking about that most recent post because when I've said things like that in other games people have behaved like you did.

[patzer]

I'd be willing to go for Patzer if you find yourself with a PhD town read. Seen some posts by him I didn't particularly enjoy.

Why do find Patzer suspicious? I too have a bad feeling about him but I doubt it's for the same reason, similar maybe but not the same.

On page six Patzer harassed me repeatedly over the issue of "lying". A fact I argued with him over for basically the entire page. In one of his more recent posts he did a completely unexplained 180 claiming I appear neutral on page six.

Back then, the lying was my main argument for you being scum, although there were other arguments too. In that recent post two things made me reduce my suspicion of you: the fact that others were not bothered about the lying issue, suggesting it was unimportant, and me noticing a strong similarity between your posts and mine in previous games.

[patzer]

@TMTOLBTWNTOF
Not autoscum, but it may be a scum tell.
Here's an example from my last game (a newbie game)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4902864
there were 4 town and 1 scum left. I was town and at L-1. one of our townies quickhammered me. in fact it was even worse, said townie made up a (completely fake) excuse to unvote me, in order to let someone else put me at L-1 so he could quickhammer. I still don't know what he was thinking. so it was 2 town to 1 scum next day. said townie had already been suspicious, the hammer was suspicious, anyway we voted the wrong person and lost. so in general, don't quickhammer without a good reason.

[patzer]

@patzer: Lol Chrimi

Can't take all the credit for that scum win, now can I?

Nope, you did well, but if it hadn't been for Chrimi we'd have at least had a better chance of winning. hypothetical situation: Chrimi hadn't done that, we lynch him, then we might have caught you in LyLo. Not that likely, but possible. And more likely than us not lynching Chrimi the way the game turned out.

On the subject of your scum win, I noticed a big similarity between this one and that one. There nobody suspected you of being scum and you were scum, here nobody has suspected you of being scum. This must mean you are scum.

[patzer]

the one thing he's worried about being called scum for

What is this one thing?

[patzer]

the one thing he's worried about being called scum for

What is this one thing?

I think Bo means the "no reads" thing.

I see. Well if it isn't that I can't think of any reason why I have been scummy. I'd be interested in seeing some examples of my posts that Bo thought were scummy.

@Patzer, and Chrimi is a she, not a he.

Whoops. Well, she was a he when she first joined Newbie 1353, which did make me confused.

[patzer]

Majiffy, I don't like how you are trying to start a wagon on me, without even making a case against me... you haven't said why you think I am scum? Maybe you should do that.

[patzer]

I wrote this post an hour ago but internet went off so posting it now.
---

Maybe eventually. I'm going out to the bar in like 5 minutes.

Seriously? Since Page 10, you've been thinking I am scum.
Let's have a look at those posts:

• Post 245- "Maybe I'll try to lynch Patzer later"
  Post 270- "I'm too lazy to give reasons why, but I will do if I try to lynch him."
  Post 292- "Let's try to lynch Patzer. DBK, come and join me on this wagon."
  Post 313- "Sakura, you should join me on this wagon. DBK isn't interested."
  Post 319- "Off to the pub; maybe eventually I'll give a reason."

What happened to those reasons promised in post 270?

I then noticed that Majiffy had slowly been preparing a wagon on me, while still being on the PHD wagon, then when the PHD wagon fell apart, he switched to me, while not bothered about the new Sakura wagon. So I reread the thread looking for conversation between Majiffy and Sakura. Here's all I found:
There was no conversation between Majiffy and Sakura, until the last few posts, which was just Majiffy trying to get Sakura to join the wagon. Nothing much.
Sakura has not mentioned her opinion of Majiffy.
Here is Majiffy's opinion on Sakura:
Post 83- "Sakura may be town." A bit vague ...
Nothing else for a long time while Majiffy focuses on PhD.
Post 210- Majiffy responds to Bo's request for an opinion on Sakura. Replies with a short sentence, before switching the subject back to PhD.


To conclude, the lack of reaction between Majiffy and Sakura, despite them both being quite active, is startling. Plus, Sakura has been displaying scummy behaviour, as already mentioned, and Majiffy has been inconsistent with regards to his attempted wagon on me. I wouldn't be at all surprised at a Majiffy-Sakura scum team.

I won't vote just yet- I would have voted for Sakura, but it would put her at L-1 and I don't want to risk an accidental hammer.

[patzer]

Spoiler: Look at all the scummy posts Patzer makes!

That's actually why I replaced into this game, so I would have an idea of some players' metas.

>Hasn't made a single meta argument yet. Why? Because he doesn't know how to fabricate one.

I was actually considering the argument that you might be town because both in that game and this one you were being highly aggressive towards townies. But then I decided against it because, firstly, your posting style here seems a bit different, although I can't pinpoint what it is. Plus you're quite experienced so your scum and town styles are going to be quite similar.

These posts contradict each other.
at the moment PhD looks like the most likely scum.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: PhDScar

Wagon hopping. Can't remember what L this was, but I do remember it sticking out to me.

what? Are you suggesting that only scum jump onto wagons? Is there a reason why a town player shouldn't vote for someone they think is most likely scum, just because some else has voted for them?

UNVOTE:

I'm not sure, but I think PhD's at L-1, and I'd rather look back at the game before voting him and risking a lynch. The Sakura wagon looks promising, so I'll have a look at her posts.

Look at that shining opportunism.

I'm not sure what this means...?

I reread the thread from page 6.
Now PhD is looking neutral. His posts have been natural, and I could easily see him being town. slight FoS on Sakura, she has said some things that may be coming from a scum point of view, but not certain by any means. I'm not sure what to do now, I don't have any major reads and from my past experience here that is regarded as a scumtell...

Yeeep.

Again, what are you trying to say here?

Seriously? Since Page 10, you've been thinking I am scum.
Let's have a look at those posts:

• Post 245- "Maybe I'll try to lynch Patzer later"
  Post 270- "I'm too lazy to give reasons why, but I will do if I try to lynch him."
  Post 292- "Let's try to lynch Patzer. DBK, come and join me on this wagon."
  Post 313- "Sakura, you should join me on this wagon. DBK isn't interested."
  Post 319- "Off to the pub; maybe eventually I'll give a reason."

What happened to those reasons promised in post 270?

Lol, here comes a pile of pre-case defensive BS.

Initially, I was just going to argue about you promising reasons for me being scum, without giving them. If you want to try to start a wagon on someone, you explain it in the same post, not a day later. While I was looking back at tose posts, I saw your lack of votes on Sakura, so delved a bit deeper. Also see my answer below.

I then noticed that Majiffy had slowly been preparing a wagon on me, while still being on the PHD wagon, then when the PHD wagon fell apart, he switched to me, while not bothered about the new Sakura wagon. So I reread the thread looking for conversation between Majiffy and Sakura. Here's all I found:
There was no conversation between Majiffy and Sakura, until the last few posts, which was just Majiffy trying to get Sakura to join the wagon. Nothing much.
Sakura has not mentioned her opinion of Majiffy.
Here is Majiffy's opinion on Sakura:
Post 83- "Sakura may be town." A bit vague ...
Nothing else for a long time while Majiffy focuses on PhD.
Post 210- Majiffy responds to Bo's request for an opinion on Sakura. Replies with a short sentence, before switching the subject back to PhD.

So I switched to another scum read after very clearly having hesitations on the player I was on - instead of jumping on a bandwagon on my town read? Is that... supposed to be scummy? Somehow?

I don't believe you have yet said why she is your town read.

To conclude, the lack of reaction between Majiffy and Sakura, despite them both being quite active, is startling. Plus, Sakura has been displaying scummy behaviour, as already mentioned, and Majiffy has been inconsistent with regards to his attempted wagon on me. I wouldn't be at all surprised at a Majiffy-Sakura scum team.

I won't vote just yet- I would have voted for Sakura, but it would put her at L-1 and I don't want to risk an accidental hammer.

Lol.

So I make a fairly substantial case against you, and all you can say is "Lol"?

tl;dr - has made no effort to legitimately scumhunt.

Why do you believe my arguments not legitimate, just because I made them while you were attacking me?

Show me one question that he posed to another player that wasn't either retaliatory/defensive in nature, or fluff. This is the PepsiMax Challenge. (Hint: there isn't one.)

Aside from my arguments against you and Sakura that you're prepared to completely dismiss without reason, there is this.

Furthermore, he has opportunistic voting habits, and his "argument" for Sakura-Majiffy scum is defensive, associative-without-flip drivel.

So, just because my arguments were made while you were attacking me, you're prepared to completely ignore them, dismissing them with a "Lol".

In addition, he has claimed to have joined this game based on knowledge of other players' meta. He hasn't discussed anything regarding meta, insofar as his reads, thus far.

Already answered above.

To conclude - he's scum. Vote him.

My replies in yellow.

[patzer]

@Patzer When Majiffy said "Yep" I think he might be referring to a case I made about you based on that post.

Can you show me that case please, and say whether you still agree with it?

[patzer]

@Patzer, not sure if someone else asked this. I'm still catching up and stuff so please excuse me if I missed the answer already.
Why didn't you vote for Majiffy? You said he's possible scummy. So why not vote him? I understand your reluctance to vote for Sakura as she'd be at L-1 ( nothing wrong with being on L-1, btw. I'm pretty sure no one would accidentily hammer. Someone would first have to state intent to hammer, and let Sakura claim role + let her do her last defense).

I prefer a Sakura lynch to a Majiffy lynch, because I think the chances of Majiffy being town and Sakura being scum are greater than the chances of Sakura being town and Majiffy being scum.

[patzer]

I would appreciate it if someone

other than Majiffy

replies with thoughts on my post 326.

[patzer]

other than Majiffy

Well what the fuck am I supposed to do then?

Give an explanation for your town read on Sakura.

[patzer]

@patzer: Why do you think I'm scum?

at about page 8-10, you were saying some scummy things, in fact that's how your wagon got started and I agreed with it. at that point it was just quite a weak scum read though. it was at post 326 when I noticed the lack of reaction between you and majiffy, it seemed to fit together, so that's why I thought you were scum

What do you make out of PhD's responses?

He looked scummy initially, but then by page 10 I had him neutral, I saw similarities between him and other newbtowns in my other games (Remembrance in newbie 1343; Plague in newbie 1353 if I remember correctly) but only put him neutral due to my earlier scumread on him. I haven't anaylsed his posts since page 10, they have looked fairly normal and I don't have a reason to suspect him, but I might have another look later.

Do you think ArcAngel might be scum trying to just stay there and watch as Town attacks each other?

She could be, she's come very close to getting replaced a few times and we haven't had much content out of her. However she could just as easily be town. I'd like to see some content from her/her replacement, coming in every few days with a brief posts is not good enough.

[patzer]

Majiffy, do you enjoy newbie games?

[patzer]

Ah sorry, I misremembered a post of yours in Newbie 1353. I thought you said you didn't like newbie games, on looking back at the game you said you didn't like to IC. That was why I asked the question.

[patzer]

So Sakura went from your townread to your scumread in one post?

[patzer]

Sakura definitely looks like scum now. At the moment, I'm fine with a Sakura lynch, but I want some content from ArcAngel9 before hammering.

- When he unvotes PhD and comments on the Sakura wagon, Majiffy calls it opportunism--even though Patzer hasn't voted Sakura since. (Which is odd, considering he's calling Majiffy and Sakura scum without any votes anywhere...hm...)

I believe I've said this before, but I didn't want to put Sakura at L-1 since I wanted to wait for more content before doing so and risking a hammer, and I didn't want to vote majiffy (yet) because I think sakura is more likely going to be scum than majiffy- If Sakura is town then Majiffy is probably town, but if Majiffy is town, there's still a good chance of Sakura being scum.

[patzer]

Yeah but you still had the belief Majiffy was likely scum. Right?

if Sakura is scum, Majiffy is my strongest scumread, but I'll want to analyse it more, especially because an Arcangel-Sakura scumteam is also quite likely (depending on Arcangel's comments tomorrow).

...And Sakura self-hammered.

[patzer]

i always get NK'd N1 that's why, when I asked all I was told is "Stop being so towny" so I tried that

Obviously this can only possibly be correct if Sakura is a Power Role, since that strategy makes no sense for a VT. However, if she is a Power Role, she'd have claimed before self-hammering. Therefore, I'm guessing Sakura self-hammered because she is scum.

[patzer]

Majiffy is unlikely scum.

If anything Majiffy is more likely scum if Sakura flips town. Majiffy was already a formidable town read throughout today, he wouldn't need a bus for even more towncred.

eh, I'll have another look tomorrow.
I had him as a scumread because of the lack of interaction between him and Sakura. also notice how much he was trying to start a wagon on me. I could see that as being part of his playstyle though.

do you know what usually happens with players like arcangel? she is providing almost no content, just posting one sentence every day or so, but can't get replaced because she is posting...
=20422#p4963128]arcangel's iso

[patzer]

ebwop: my tag seems to be broken... don't know why

[patzer]

And if ArcAngel continues to do that Day 2, we'll vote the hell out of her.

Is that because the lurking is a scumtell, or is it a policy lynch?

[patzer]

unofficial votecount
Sakura Hana (5): TMTOLBTWNTOF, freezing-hell, Does Bo Know, Majiffy, Sakura Hana

---
Majiffy, who are you current scumreads? Do you believe Sakura will flip scum?

[patzer]

TMT is most likely town for pursuing a Sakura lynch to the bitter end. I think he's been actively on Sakura-scum the longest.

Patzer is most likely town because of Sakura's slip.

Majiffy is probably town also because of the slip; Sakura probably wouldn't have commented on Majiffy being "wrong" in his reads. Plus, Majiffy was the only person that effectively caught the slip. Majiffy scum would be clever, but that's not a move I'd expect him to pull, to bus a partner he probably never had to bus in the first place, and then confirm two townies.

I'm town because I'm town.

That leaves ArcAngel, Anorway, and Freezing-hell. I feel like we can PoE to victory at this point, unless someone wants to refute the above statements.

I want to see PhD's ISO sometime today too. And I'm probably not going to pursue ArcAngel today for...selfish reasons.

I'm thinking Anorway is a good pressure for now, because initially Freezing has been a townread.

I agree with all of this, except I'd put Majiffy as neutral. you have a good argument for majiffy=town there, but due to my arguments against him yesterday I'd say he's neutral. I think you(DBK) are looking like town at the moment. You seem to be posting some good arguments.

I'll post more when I have a chance to reread the thread (probably tomorrow)

[patzer]

VOTE: ArcAngel9

I want her to post more, it doesn't help when one of our main scum reads is hardly ever posting...

ArcAngel, if you are town and want to help the town, please either post more or ask to be replaced out.

[patzer]

Patzer, why are you not on Anorway's wagon?

1) Because he is at L-1
2) Because I want some content from ArcAngel, and I thought pressuring her might help.

[patzer]

But is Anorway scummy in your eyes?

Slightly scummy. He looks a bit scummy, but also by process of elimination, if Arcangel is town, then he'd be most likely scum. Arcangel is difficult to read with so few posts though.

In order from scummiest to towniest,

Arcangel, anorway, freezing-hell, Majiffy, DBK, TMT, patzer.

[patzer]

If Arcangel is posting so scarcely and you can't get a read on her, then why are you voting? Are you voting because you think she is scum or are you voting to get her to post?

I think she is likely scum precisely because of her lack of posting, if she posts more and gives me a good reason to think she is town I will unvote her.

[patzer]

^ so your point is that i am scum becuz i haven't made enough posts?
I did made enough posts for you to get basic read on me..ISO me please.

10 posts, all of which have not much content, isn't enough for me to get a basic read on you through the content of your posts.

ArcAngel, if you are town and want to help the town, please either post more or ask to be replaced out.

[patzer]

i didn't read the last few pages, so i ll tell you about patzer for sure later today.

still waiting for this ...

[patzer]

And if ArcAngel continues to do that Day 2, we'll vote the hell out of her.

Do you still agree with this?

[patzer]

(the question in the previous post was directed at Does Bo Know)

[patzer]

I don't think we should hammer anorway yet, because we have 2 more weeks, which is plenty of time to try to get some content out of ArcAngel. (she's due for a prod in 15 hours). if Arcangel keeps posting very little I'd prefer an Arcangel lynch.

[patzer]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: freezing-hell

I don't like his last post at all. Sudden unexplained switch to DBK?

[patzer]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: freezing-hell

I don't like his last post at all. Sudden unexplained switch to DBK?

That makes Freezing less likely to be scum. No one would've minded if he hammered Anorway, so why go through the trouble of voting a different player?

Good point, I didn't think of that

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ArcAngel9

[patzer]

@patzer: What do you think about Majiffy saying that ArcAngel doesn't really respond to pressure?

Arcangel hasn't really been put under pressure yet, I'm sure she'd respond if she was at L-1 and under threat of being lynched. as it is, the attention has been mainly focused on anorway.

[patzer]

Ideally, Arcangel would offer to replace out.

I just checked, Arcangel is currently in 16 (!) games. this makes me think her lack of posting is not necessarily a scumtell. I'd still like to pressure her though (and encourage her to replace out). Even if she is town, she's no help to the town.

[patzer]

can we prod him/her?

needs to be 72 hours from her last post before she is prodded, so she can be prodded in 7 hours.

[patzer]

<snip>

This hints as to who one of the scum players might be.
PhD, if you know who the scum are and accidentally revealed one of them, please blank your post immediately.
If I am just misinterpreting your post, ignore me.

[patzer]

I know editing is against the rules, but if you did accidentally reveal the scum, then post editing is preferable to ruining the game.

[patzer]

Ok I think PhD is telling the truth, sorry about that ...

[patzer]

@Mod
Can I replace out please.