Khan's Unnamed 3p Mafia II (Micro 175) {Game Over}

[Zachrulez]

Hey, what's up guys?

[Zachrulez]

Not much. Just speculating that KK has a weird sense of humor. Time will tell.

What makes you say that? (Actually having the same thought.)

[Zachrulez]

'morning!

saul, we should

You two should crossvote.

Don't think it's going to be that simple.

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, which one of you two is it? A good nice scumclaim would save us some time here. No? Come on!

[Zachrulez]

I'm pondering that this won't be your typical lylo situation.

[Zachrulez]

I'm pondering that after he saw this:

Tierce and I can call each other scum while zach-scum goes on to win

he couldn't resist setting it up that way. There's a 50-50 chance of that from where I'm sitting.

I don't think he'd set it up based on anything we said in the queue. If I'm scum, I drew it randomly. (Disclaimer: I'm not scum.)

Also I was pondering that, I was pondering setup related things that I'm not sure are advantageous to actually state.

Preliminary thought is that Tierce is scum here. ^.^

[Zachrulez]

Bah... EBWOP

I'm pondering that after he saw this:

Tierce and I can call each other scum while zach-scum goes on to win

he couldn't resist setting it up that way. There's a 50-50 chance of that from where I'm sitting.

I don't think he'd set it up based on anything we said in the queue. If I'm scum, I drew it randomly. (Disclaimer: I'm not scum.)

Also I was

n't

pondering that, I was pondering setup related things that I'm not sure are advantageous to actually state.

Preliminary thought is that Tierce is scum here. ^.^

[Zachrulez]

Because she made one throwaway post and hasn't come back to play with us...

Also she hasn't insisted she's obvtown yet.

Vote: Kublai Khan

Only because I like you.

[Zachrulez]

I have this overwhelming urge to try something here...

[Zachrulez]

I can't resist the urge.

Vote: Zachrulez

keh hehhehhehhehhehheh!

[Zachrulez]

Didn't think it was going to be that easy.

[Zachrulez]

???

Okay, I'm not a troll and neither is Tierce. So explain to me how you're not scum, Zach?*

*Offer only applies if the setup isn't all town. And if it is, why isn't anyone else voting the mod now?

I'm a supersaint. I self voted on the outside chance that scum would quickhammer me, but I think whichever one of you is scum is wise to the game so eh...

Unvote:

[Zachrulez]

By the way that means lynching me is a town autowin provided that town votes me first should you guys go down that route... it's just a matter of which one of you is actually town... that's the fun part.

[Zachrulez]

So like I said, this isn't going to be your typical lylo... ^.^

[Zachrulez]

Eh, I couldn't be sure if we were all supersaints or not, and the odds of scum not having inside knowledge to that is low, because that would just be a trolly way for scum to lose.

[Zachrulez]

Incidentally, the only way scum can win by lynching me is to be the first vote on me... so errr... yeah.

[Zachrulez]

What do you think Saul?

[Zachrulez]

This is fun...

[Zachrulez]

Your response is missing a Saulres vote. Just sayin.

[Zachrulez]

lol

[Zachrulez]

She's saying I'd be free to hammer you since you claimed VT, but she's claiming supersaint as well, by implication me hammering her would kill me. (Which doesn't matter to me if she's scum, it's still a town win.)

[Zachrulez]

You're a free hammer, she is not. That's basically a supersaint softclaim.

[Zachrulez]

Meh. Convenient of her to softclaim that after you outright claimed it. I don't buy it.

My vote is not moving off of her.

The beauty of it is you don't even have to move your vote off her.

[Zachrulez]

I expect this game to have new Tierce posts in it when I come back to it tonight.

[Zachrulez]

I had a revelation while staring at the microwave.

saulres is scum and believes both of us are super saints, so his only solutions, in his PoV, are to have Zach/I hammer each other--he has to vote first, or the first vote has to be a self-vote with him not voting.

Again, yeahno not going to claim. This is fun to watch. ^_^

Yeah, but you're not ever going to vote him for that are you? You're going to lynch me because we 'have to'. What if I pick you to hammer me?

[Zachrulez]

Am I scum Tierce?

[Zachrulez]

I don't think so.

Why haven't you hammered me?

I was going to before your last couple of posts... then I had to go and actually think about things. Argh.

That or I'm scum who won't hammer because I'm afraid you are a supersaint.

[Zachrulez]

Kublai Khan really is a mad genius here, this is one hell of a stand off.

[Zachrulez]

I'm trying to figure out how we get out of this without being stuck in our own POVs forever.

[Zachrulez]

I can't think of a solution for this other than the one I like the least. GAH.

[Zachrulez]

Really it's probably an aversion to actually being the lynch, but functionally me choosing one of you to hammer me is no different then if you are actually crossvoting, and it alleviates Tierce's issue of voting Saul and fearing scum me quickhammering.

So it's just that I have to make the leap, and I really don't like it...

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Zachrulez

[Zachrulez]

That was the easy part.

[Zachrulez]

Of course you realize Tierce, that if I pick scum to hammer me they won't actually do it?

[Zachrulez]

well if I come to the conclusion that Tierce scum, I can either compel her to hammer or do it myself.

[Zachrulez]

BTW Tierce, I'm not Zoraster...

[Zachrulez]

Actually having a scum supersaint in the game doesn't really matter from a setup standpoint. It would just clue the scum in to think before quickhammering.

I mean I'm just talking from a purely hypothetical standpoint here.

[Zachrulez]

Tierce ain't claiming. There's no point.

[Zachrulez]

What he's saying is that if you're a supersaint, we crossvote and he chooses who to hammer.

Of course he's currently voting you, so he might be hoping I've forgotten that.

[Zachrulez]

But it doesn't matter. Whether you're VT or Supersaint, I don't find either scenario acceptable, so you don't need to claim.

[Zachrulez]

Can you describe your emotional state right now, Zach?

Something like aiutgioawrtipugpigasdfbgaiwgtripugwaipgvksgdfigaiwetrgpiouagwipguiasgfiawggpiuh!

[Zachrulez]

So, who dies?

[Zachrulez]

Annoyed that this pretty much is the best solution. If I don't do this, we're probably not going to get anywhere ever.

[Zachrulez]

So, who dies?

You!

Who else?

Well yeah, obviously I do. What I'm asking you to do is convince me who dies with me.

(Oh, and I only die if I'm wrong, no pressure right?)

[Zachrulez]

Kublai Khan really is a mad genius here, this is one hell of a stand off.

Come play this 3p game with me, she said.
It will be fun, she said.

You convinced me to play this... imagine how I feel!

[Zachrulez]

I kind of really hope Zach is scum and made the worst gambit of his life and is trying to figure out how to get out of this situation.

Because that would be horribly satisfying in a really mean way.

There is no way out for hyposcum Zach. But none of what hyposcum Zach would have done to this point makes any sense to begin with... so... ect.

PEdit the First: Annoyed? Annoyed is... ack. I don't remember being annoyed as the decision-maker in LyLo. I remember being relieved, frustrated, scared, but... not annoyed. I didn't have to self-vote, but... I really don't think that fits anyway, the end result is the same, and I

hate

being lynched to begin with, but this is the best solution. I don't see why I would be annoyed if I was the one being lynched and making that decision. I would see me being annoyed if I had to hammer a claimed supersaint Townread (which was what I felt over Open 390 while knowing Fate would coast to a win the next Day), but

the lynchee

?

Now I'm more confused than before. But kind of relieved, because that doesn't make much sense as Town emotions right now.


PEdit the Second: I'm trying to. You're not particularly helping.

I haven't been mislynched since the summer of 2009. So there's a lot at stake for me on a personal achievement level.

I would prefer there is some other resolution to this but there's not.

[Zachrulez]

But there's really no need to analyze me at this point, you pretty much just lynch me if I unvote before picking someone to hammer me.

[Zachrulez]

So now I'm leaning saul scum...

[Zachrulez]

I didn't call you "immoral", I called

deciding the setup without randomness

immoral.

pedit: zach: Why?

Understanding Tierce's reasons for not claiming kinda shifted the balance.

[Zachrulez]

pedit: zach: Why?

Understanding Tierce's reasons for not claiming kinda shifted the balance.

When did your read change?

After I read your posts this morning and looked at your reasoning for not claiming from your POV. (What I thought up to that point was that you were softclaiming to keep me a viable scum option. Your posts got me to see the town motivation for doing what you were doing.)

[Zachrulez]

p. p. e. dit. What about the possibility she's not claiming in order to get you to think she's a supersaint and you'd lose by hammering? Seems solid scum strategy to me. And of course she'd have to come up with a believable reason for it.

Her role doesn't matter to me. Her alignment does.

[Zachrulez]

You still with us Tierce?

[Zachrulez]

So I've got Tierce saying she will hammer me and Saulres saying he won't...

[Zachrulez]

Why are you trying to associate scummy intent with an action that you know is null?

Two reasons.

1) As you said, I win if he picks you. It's in my best interest, if he's town, to make every argument I can that you are the scum.

2) I feel the way you presented the plan, not the plan itself, was not a town way of doing so. If I had thought of that plan first, I would have suggested it differently than you did. And since I'm town, I think my way is "the" town way and your way is not.

How would you have presented the plan then?

Having said that, the more this discussion goes on, and Zach just sits back, the more I'm starting to think we're doing our usual dance and he's the scum laughing. But I'm not sold on that yet. We (town we, not you-and-me-we) need him to start participating more though.

So you're going to try to pressure me to act fast, rather than taking my time to make the most informed decision possible? (Regardless of how long it takes, I'm going to have to make one eventually.)

(Oh, and yes, I've seen you play this way, or similarly at least (in my poor memory) back in PARANOIA Mafia. You were presenting plans and all there IIRC, and you were scum.)

I really need to have another look at that game. Truth be told it's all a blur and I was never paying that much attention to it. (For obvious reasons.)

pedit (you're kidding, even now too?): Oh hi Zach. Yes, that's corerct, but I really hope you're looking at my reasons for saying that. It's

not

a scumclaim, as Tierce is trying to present it as. It's a disagreement on the strategical value of doing so.

How is me picking which one of you hammers me any different than me choosing which one of you to hammer if you guys were in fact cross voting?

[Zachrulez]

Oh hai guys.

[Zachrulez]

I can see Tierce's play from a town point of view. Saulres I'm finding harder to see that way, and he's not really helping me much, most of what he's doing is more or less having the effect of putting pressure on effecting the gamestate in a way that only benefits him.

26 bothers me at a gut level, but if that's going to end up being the only point against Tierce, I'm thinking the decision is going to have to be Saulres here.

[Zachrulez]

most of what he's doing is more or less having the effect of putting pressure on effecting the gamestate

One of our Englishes broke. Not sure if it was yours or mine. Can you rephrase this?

I was referring to him telling you to hammer me, and also his little backhanded slap about how I'm starting to look scummy because I'm taking my time in making a decision.

You're not addressing saul's points directly. Why is that?[/quote]

I could, but it's a lot of work which is likely going to amount to me picking him to hammer me. Why go to all that trouble when I can just say I'm picking him?

[Zachrulez]

Oh bugger.

most of what he's doing is more or less having the effect of putting pressure on effecting the gamestate

One of our Englishes broke. Not sure if it was yours or mine. Can you rephrase this?

I was referring to him telling you to hammer me, and also his little backhanded slap about how I'm starting to look scummy because I'm taking my time in making a decision.

You're not addressing saul's points directly. Why is that?

I could, but it's a lot of work which is likely going to amount to me picking him to hammer me. Why go to all that trouble when I can just say I'm picking him?

[Zachrulez]

The problem with this plan is, from my POV it guarantees a town win for Tierce to be your hammerer. Which is what she was arguing for me to be the hammerer. And since I'm leaning towards her being the scum, I'm unlikely to agree to vote you. And I'm sure she'll say the same thing.

This is why I think it's so important for Tierce to claim

whatever

she is, and I'll unvote her if that's what it takes. I just don't accept that Tierce is a VT also.

pedit: Exactly.

ppedit: He hasn't done any scumhunting. He's just riding the claim. That's not solid enough to be conftown.

pppedit: Then town loses.

There's a lot of other points I can make, but when it comes right down to it this is what bothers me the most.

The implication of the statement seems to betray that he knows my alignment to me, despite all of his claims in further posts that he hasn't ruled me out.

[Zachrulez]

So Saul can go ahead and hammer me... and by god, he better be scum.

[Zachrulez]

Fair enough. I've done the same as confTown in LyLo, but from where I'm standing it's frustrating because it hampers my ability to scumhunt you. Sad Tierce.

pppedit: Then town loses.

There's a lot of other points I can make, but when it comes right down to it this is what bothers me the most.

The implication of the statement seems to betray that he knows my alignment to me, despite all of his claims in further posts that he hasn't ruled me out.

No? He was saying that Town would lose in reply to my #75, which was "we'll lynch you if you don't hammer Zach". That is not a perspective slip.

Yeah, you guys preview editing like crazy is confusing. Nontheless, he was simply too quick to believe my claim, and his posts about reconsidering me don't ring true.

If he truly isn't sure I'm town, he should be fine hammering me and he's not.

[Zachrulez]

Don't need to do this at this point, but for Tierce's benefit.

Sigh.

Why would I want, as Town, to try and build Towncred before I present a plan that I know is optimal? So that I have a better chance of convincing people to follow me? I don't need it, because I know that the numbers show that this is optimal, and more importantly, I don't need to build up Towncred.

You're asking me to hammer him if he picks me. The only reason I would have to do so is if I think he is scum, because as town, it is not in my best interest to hammer him yet since

you

could be the scum. If you convinced me you were town, though, then I

would

hammer him, because he'd be the scum. That's why it's important to have towncred before asking the other person to agree to the plan.

It's not her asking you to do it, it's doing it because the decision should be mine, not yours, and it's the optimal play with the information we have.

You've asked me to hammer Zach twice now.

That's not what I was doing there. Here, let me bring the whole thing in:

You did, twice. Here's both instances.

pedit: Awesome. So do it. Otherwise it's just lip service. Scum could easily conceive a plan like that hoping it makes them look townie enough to have the supersaint pick the other person.

In response to Tierce 80.

Zach plays the role of confTown and gets to pick who hammers him, he either dies as scum or takes down one person with him, making this a 50% LyLo over a 33% one

This explains where you're coming from very well. But it's just reducing the game to a numbers game, and I'm not willing to go along with it if he picks me. If you really want to go that route, then you should just hammer him and get your 50%.

And again here.

Having said that, the more this discussion goes on, and Zach just sits back, the more I'm starting to think we're doing our usual dance and he's the scum

So you're going to try to pressure me to act fast, rather than taking my time to make the most informed decision possible? (Regardless of how long it takes, I'm going to have to make one eventually.)

I wasn't pressuring him to act fast in the part he was responding to, and I wasn't pressuring you to do anything there either.[/quote]

You were calling my inaction scummy.

how is my plan-crafting similar to Paranoia in particular

Because I've seen you do it as scum, so I can't assume you're town just because you're doing it again.

It's a non point because her doing it isn't scummy.

None of this is really scumhunting.

The back-and-forth with you? It's really not, no, it's defending my decision because the last I heard Zach was thinking I'm more likely to be scum and I'm not ready to vote him.

Yup.

you are still the lynch.

And then Zach flips scum and me and I weep over my carefully nurtured "Town LyLos won: 0" in the post-game.

I'm trying not to have to weep. But if he's town and he picks you, you will be weeping.

Weep Saulres... weep.

[Zachrulez]

Jesus Christ.

Zach, are you picking saul because he said he won't hammer you, which means he's the lynch and you win as scum with the gutsiest gambit I've seen in a while?

Don't answer that. Mogget might need a :PARTY:nfoil hat before this game is over.

We wouldn't be in this situation if I was scum. (Which is WIFOM, but seriously Tierce, Occam's Razor.) I'm picking him because I think the reason he won't hammer me is because he's scum.

[Zachrulez]

I hate you, KK.

PEdit: Because I've been trying from the beginning to say that Zach might be gambiting and therefore he HAS TO BE THE LYNCH. Your refusal to hammer means I have to scumhunt him and I am not pleased with what I'm seeing. This isn't rocket surgery.

Zach: I'm studiously ignoring you while rocking back and forth in a tight ball.

He has to hammer me eventually is he's town. The chance I'm not scum to him can never be 0%.

[Zachrulez]

I hate you, KK.

PEdit: Because I've been trying from the beginning to say that Zach might be gambiting and therefore he HAS TO BE THE LYNCH. Your refusal to hammer means I have to scumhunt him and I am not pleased with what I'm seeing. This isn't rocket surgery.

Zach: I'm studiously ignoring you while rocking back and forth in a tight ball.

He has to hammer me eventually i

f

he's town. The chance I'm not scum to him can never be 0%.

[Zachrulez]

Yes, waiting is better--which is why I said that his refusal to hammer is not a "scumclaim", but you have to be lynched all the same. I don't want to lynch him, I want you lynched.

Bed, part 2. My sleep schedule is best defined as "error: not found".

Tierce, I told you this from the beginning. If I pick scum, scum isn't going to hammer me.

If it's Saul, he can just refuse forever because what he needs to do is get you to hammer me.

[Zachrulez]

So if you do hammer me now, I am going to be very annoyed...

Because I've made my decision. Saul hammers me, or he dies.

[Zachrulez]

If it ain't you, then I just got fooled by Tierce scum.

[Zachrulez]

And if you are in fact scum Tierce, the bouts of fake paranoia at the end were totally unnecessary and just downright unkind.

[Zachrulez]

I am constantly reminded of why I should stop playing.

[Zachrulez]

SON OF A...

Well played Tierce.

[Zachrulez]

I really need to trust my first instinct.

[Zachrulez]

I can type up some advice for ya if you want Saul.

[Zachrulez]

Well, Tierce basically played her reactions and suggestions perfectly. In the beginning her reaction to my supersaint claim by voting for my came right out of the scum playbook. I was ready to lynch here where she stood on that basis. She basically did a flawless job of conveying what her point of view should have been as a townie and proposing the optimal town plan. The problem with this is that you can't attack her for that because it is optimal. She might happen to be scum playing suboptimally, but you can't argue that the action is inherently scummy. What I needed was for you to show me why her play was scummy. Painting her as scum for suggesting the 50/50 thing was not going to convince me.

Of course I can't say that you would have been able to convince me with a case based solely on her play... but you would have had a better chance had you not tried to hammer on her suggesting the 50/50 making her scum. She had you by the throat there. The pro-town thing is to be willing to hammer me because you can't be sure I'm town. She was willing, you weren't... that's where she got you. If you had accepted that she convinced me that was the way to go, then you would have had a better shot at it.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, I couldn't have convinced you not to vote for me, could I have? Did I give up too easily?

I mean part of the reason I did pick you because you were unwilling to hammer me. Part of the aspect of that was to force Tierce to vote you. Then I would be confirmed town. (I was NEVER going to vote you first.)

[Zachrulez]

Zach, I couldn't have convinced you not to vote for me, could I have? Did I give up too easily?

I mean part of the reason I did pick you was because you were unwilling to hammer me. Part of the aspect of that was to force Tierce to vote you. Then I would be confirmed town. (I was NEVER going to vote you first.)

[Zachrulez]

A who blinks first scenario basically.

But yeah, this game was nuts. I didn't give the concept of starting in 3p lylo enough credit, but WOW.

[Zachrulez]

Oh, and if you unvoted, we could have compelled Tierce to claim. (I wasn't interested because you didn't show any true interest in unvoting.)

[Zachrulez]

All that said, I'm sorry Saul.

[Zachrulez]

What would you have done if Saul unvoted you and I compelled you to claim? I'm just curious.

[Zachrulez]

I have absolutely no clue. Hadn't planned that far out yet.

Yeah, I'm just asking, because HAD he unvoted. I totally would have 180ed on not wanting a claim, and depending on your reaction, him doing so could have been a winning play.

[Zachrulez]

Now I just need an avatar with the boat on the bottom of the ocean with 2 skeletons on it.

[Zachrulez]

It was the perfect avatar for this game, gotta admit that.

[Zachrulez]

The pro-town thing is to be willing to hammer me because you can't be sure I'm town.

This is the part I still don't understand. I know I can't be sure, but when I'm leaning so heavily one way, how is it pro-town to say "Well I think you're town but since the scum suggested this plan I'll go ahead and slit our throats just because"?

I was quite honest in my assessment of how I think that plan should have been played as town.

p. f***king. edit.: Tierce, you didn't convince me you were town. Zach did a couple of scummier things towards the end there which made it more likely to me that he was the scum.

More later, got work to do.

I will say there was a lot more going on in my head in terms of trying to get the pieces laid out the way I wanted them to be laid out. I wasn't counting on you hammering me right away, I was counting on you continuing to put up resistance to lynching me to the point that it would have forced Tierce to vote for you. Then I would have been confirmed town, and all that nonsense about me having to be the lynch... well... poof.

I was playing for the chance of that happening anyway. I was probably somewhat delusional about how likely it actually was to happen. (In the case of Saul town/Tierce Scum.)

[Zachrulez]

Giddy?

I had considered unvoting Tierce a few times, but rejected it each time for -- I don't know what. It just didn't feel right.

I did fail to mention that I would have backed her claiming if you did. So I do have some blame here.

[Zachrulez]

mudslinging/hypocrisy never ever helps you as Town, because it's not honest or transparent.

If you don't mind some elaboration on this? I didn't feel I was mudslinging, and all my arguments were honest.

I do agree optimal play for town is to have the claimed SS self-vote and the other player hammer. But I couldn't figure out how to get you to do that

It's optimal both ways. Your job is to convince me to pick the other person to hammer me.