Mini 1451: A Memory of Light (Game Over)

[Belisarius]

/confirm

[Belisarius]

VOTE: NicCage because gin.

[Belisarius]

My gut right now says town, but I don't listen to it.

Even on D1? Whyever not?

These were addressed while I was reading through but after I popped them into notepad, but I'll leave 'em in for emphasis.

Also see a scum-mentality from 87.

Looks neutral to me, and I play scum a lot. How is that scum-thinking?

This is dumb as hell considering it was, y'know, nero cain that had his vote sitting on a townread.

Nero went from an RVS read to a stated scum read. I don't see him voting a town read ever.

[Belisarius]

Still not seeing anything that jumps out at me. I don't trust the 'shake wagon, I'm liking sword for town so far.

[Belisarius]

Also, I'd like to hear Beli's reads, and thoughts.

Sure, but there's a reason I haven't posted it -- to wit, it's useless:

Demon: Pretty null, don't understand the Iecerint vote
Ghostlin: Gut town read, but I don't understand his objection to MattP's roleclaim, or the question in #59.
GoodCop_BadCop: fully null, nothing really to go on
Iecerint: Leaning town, but don't know why because my brain is being an asshole
MattP: A fair bit of text, but none of it alignment-indicative, null
milkshake: True, I didn't really like the softpush on MattP, but I'm not sanguine about the blitzwagon on her, either
MD: Not enough to go on; I think HD is the head I could read more readily, but it's only been Mara talking
Nero: #83 shows that he was leery of 'shake before the vote was placed, which makes #85 null, not scummy; #105 shows a kind of mindset which I share, which makes me more sanguine about him.
Selkies: I don't like their hop onto the milkshake wagon, and their hop

off

of it looks forced too. Not enough to earn a vote in isolation, though.
sword_of_omens: Gut says town, brain is being an asshole
Admiral: Null
Amrun: Liking the strong entrance, that's all for now.

And on that note, UNVOTE:

[Belisarius]

It's optimal strategy, but not all players play optimally.

[Belisarius]

1) No, I'm voting for Milk because a push on a claimed VT is pretty terrible, actually.

Wait why

Why is a push on a p1 claimed VT by a person with a meta of claiming VT "terrible"

????

It's MattP who has the meta for claiming VT, not Milkshake.

[Belisarius]

1) No, I'm voting for Milk because a push on a claimed VT is pretty terrible, actually.

Wait why

Why is a push on a p1 claimed VT by a person with a meta of claiming VT "terrible"

????

It's MattP who has the meta for claiming VT, not Milkshake.

so not what Ghost said

Good thing I was quoting Selkies, not Ghost, then.

[Belisarius]

...This question bothers me. It seems like you'll continue to use this for whatever motivation you got against Matt regardless of how this is answered.

You're calling

that

a loaded question?

In what way is it loaded? Specific examples please.

[Belisarius]

Matt can only answer the question two ways: if he says yes, then milkshake can then use this to try to lynch him under the fact he's a liability to town because he might be lying to us. If he says no, then suspicion can safely ride with him all game because he's willing to lie to Town.

That's rubbish. If he says yes, then that makes us more willing to pursue a Lynch All Liars policy lynch, which is a common enough with current site meta that Matt's answer won't affect it significantly. If he says no, then he's willing to lie to town

in order to further his wincon

. This is a given for scum, and for town it's neutral at worst.

What the question does is make Matt easier to read for us, which is a town-minded objective.

[Belisarius]

do you see any outcome for the question that doesn't lead down a possibility where we don't lynch Matt?

Yes -- the town as a whole has an easier time reading Matt. One of the possibilities of this is that we decide he's not scum and therefore do not lynch him.

Beli and Milkshake are OK with both outcomes leading to a Matt P lynch

Nice misrep. I did not say I was OK with a Matt lynch, since I have not yet decided if I am or not.

VOTE: Ghostlin

And Beli, if you believed anything you just posted, why aren't you voting for Matt P?

Because there is no crossover between what you say I'm saying and what I'm actually saying, and I am not looking for a MattP lynch at this time.

[Belisarius]

Read what you bolded; both answers are neutral in terms of deciding a vote in isolation. LaL is a popular PL by site meta regardless of Matt's answer, but if he's willing to lie for a gambit...it's neutral since such gambits can be explained after they work or fail. The only difference is Matt's readability.

[Belisarius]

So may I assume you're totally unwilling to lynch Selkies today?

[Belisarius]

This is the night that either makes me or fordoes me quite.

[Belisarius]

How exactly is Beli vote opportunistic hop?

I also want to know this.

[Belisarius]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ThAdmiral

What's wrong with talking a lot?

[Belisarius]

This is almost RVS

Reacting to a scummy action with a vote is not RVS. RVS is voting for no real reason. This is voting for someone who is trying to shut down discussion, and discussion is needed to find scum.

Amrun's verbosity makes her easier to read. I like easy to read. I will not be voting to lynch Amrun anytime soon specifically because of the end result of her large amount of posts.

[Belisarius]

This is really lazy reasoning. I would of accepted this on Page 5, but not Page 20+ Day 1 of an ongoing game.

The page is not relevant. I will vote for someone trying to shut down discussion on page 50+ on Day 4 of an ongoing game unless it's lylo.

[Belisarius]

And Beli's reaction to being a viable and very possible lynch today is to... ignore his wagon?

Yeah, 'cause it's horseshit.

[Belisarius]

Who the fuck uses this language in talking about scum reads?

Uh, at least one town player every single game I've ever played?

[Belisarius]

I'm not attacking you at all anymore. I'm satisfied with your response.

Although given the conclusion you've jumped to, perhaps I should come back to you.

[Belisarius]

EBWOP: Gah, dangling participle. I'm satisfied with your response to my prior vote on you.

[Belisarius]

@ beli: it's pretty much you versus milk for top lynch spot now. You might as well jump on milk now, for self preservation reasons if nothing else.

I'm not voting Milk because I do not want him (her? I don't know what pronoun to use) dead at this time. My vote goes on my top scumread, and self-preservation be hanged.

[Belisarius]

I think. It feels like he's overwhelmed like he doesn't know how to get out of being caught

Yes. When he invited me to vote Milk, I doubt it was out of any concern for my safety. Why single me out? Because I was voting him. I don't think he expected the result to be that my wagon would collapse (tbf, neither did I) and it would turn into a wagon on him, and he's been quiet since because he's in oh shit mode and doesn't want to make things worse.

With the deadline approaching, we're not going to get a better reaction than this.

ThAdmiral delenda est.

[Belisarius]

Not only did he not bother to figure out which person MM was talking to, he used it for a rather opportunistic push.

My opinion of ThAd is independent of what I think Mara thinks. What I said was about ThAd. I was focusing on ThAd because I think he's scum. Mara said something which applies to my view of ThAd, so I quoted it. If she was talking about someone else, this changes nothing.

Also, "opportunistic?" With deadline looming? I don't want a no lynch.

Tell you what: If ThAd flips town, policy lynch me tomorrow.

[Belisarius]

I know nothing of the series Swords

Then upon what were you basing your supposition that all dreamwalkers are town? There is really no reason to think this.

Discounting flavour as something that could influence how roles work: Masons are modconfirmed to each other in their role PMs, so I'm thinking dreamwalkers are more like neighbourisers, and the one time I played with a neighbouriser, he neigbourised scum.

Counting flavour: Does anyone think "the dangers of the dream realm" could refer to anything other than its inhabitants? The Forsaken were dreamwalkers. It stands to reason that scum could easily have access to the dream.

Swords is

so

not scum.

[Belisarius]

Also, iece needs more scrutiny and fery is concerned about that slot

Then why are you telling us to scrutinise him instead of doing so yourself?

[Belisarius]

I would even be willing to backstab Belisarius.

And how would that be backstabbing? I believe it's called "playing mafia."

Unless, of course, your choice of phrase here is an attempt to set up a fake associative tell for after you flip scum. Yes, I could believe this.

[Belisarius]

Although I'm not sure how lynching you would associate us.

It wouldn't -- but if

you

flipped scum, anyone who notices that word "backstab" would paint

me

as scum by association with you.

[Belisarius]

Commuters haven't any way of telling if they've been targeted. What's the flavour name?

[Belisarius]

It couldn't be balefire, balefire kills people back in time and the flavour has a disembodied voice speaking

after

the death.

I suspect Ghostlin died of the mysterious dangers of Tel'aran'rhiod.

[Belisarius]

The dreamworld normally leaves "bodies" in the real world once they are killed...

Unless the entered the dream in the flesh, but I doubt Aviendha would do that...

I'm showing how painfully ignorant I am of the flavor, but my first thought was that Matt's killer might be a dragon Do the dragons in this series breathe fire?

- f

There's only one Dragon in the series and he's human.

Breathing fire....well, that's debatable xD

[Belisarius]

Beli, swords, how likely do you think it is that Ghost was killed by dream-walking?

I'd say almost a certainty; my role PM specifically mentions the dangers of Tel'aran'rhiod. I'm toying with the idea that scum have a factional kill that can only succeed against someone who is Dreaming and Ghostlin was targeted specifically because he crumbed Dreamer and thus could be expected to be in Tel'aran'rhiod over the night, but the scum don't know who the other Dreamers are.

I'd suggest any other Dreamers stay the hell out of Tel'aran'rhiod tonight.

[Belisarius]

We're in such a PR-heavy game that the idea of a Role Madness setup was proposed prior to the Matt lynch; I'm thinking, as Cain suggested, that both kills were carried out by the Mafia -- one regular factional kill, plus something along the lines of a scum PR that can target a player and if they Dream, they die.

If nobody Dreams tonight and we still have 2 NKs, we'll know there's a standard SK, but as long as a Dreamer dies every night, it's a plausible hypothesis.

[Belisarius]

You suggested I think it's one team with two kills; the elaboration on that theme is entirely mine.

[Belisarius]

EBWOP: I

have

played a game in which the scum had a conditional-kill PR like that, albeit offsite. Actually, they had three such PRs, with roles taken from the mafiascum wiki: Ninja, Poisoner, and (one-shot) Sharpshooter.

[Belisarius]

So you think that scum may have more the one conditional-kill PR? Dream walking is non-consecutive, if the dream-killer walked the first night, they wouldn't be able to walk the second making N2 a safer night to walk and N3 a more dangerous one.

I don't see any evidence of more than one -- even one is an unsubstantiated and barely formed hypothesis which is almost certainly wrong, but may be

similar

to what actually exists. It could be an X-Shot role or one where they can target every night, but if they target someone who doesn't Dream, nothing happens.

@ everyone else: my exact role title is reflexive modified commuter. If you think I'm lying you are in for a surprise. There's actually more to the role as well!

Yeah, I don't believe it at all. The other PRs have had WoT flavour to their names. Even MattP had a character name as well as a role name, and his role name was non-Mafiascum standard in that the words "Vanilla" and "Town" were reversed. I doubt any non-vanilla roles have names that appear in the wiki.

VOTE: ThAdmiral

[Belisarius]

So instead I'll ask you this, Nero: why sk? Why not other things?

I don't think this is weird. If there is more than one NK, serial killer is the most common reason, unless there is more than one scum faction. The flavour makes more than one scum faction unlikely--WoT is about the Light vs. the Shadow, but there are lots of characters (Padan Fain/Mordeth jumps to mind) who would make a good solo third party.

Commuters are essentially self protects (but even stronger, especially given how this particular one works).

There is evidence that MORE THAN ONE of these exist in this game.

If town also has a doctor, the game is broken as fuck. I choose to not think the game is broken as fuck.

There are -- and they're called Dreamwalkers. Why would the mod use both Dreamwalkers and standardcommuters?

I am Gaul, a One-Shot Dreamwalker. My role PM says I can pick one night to enter Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, and

most

night actions targeting me will miss (before going on to call Tel'aran'rhiod dangerous), but I'll have a private, anonymous QT to talk with anyone else who is also in the Dream. (The anonymity of the QT is what leads me to believe the scum have an ability that targets Dreamers specifically -- the mod intends for the scum to have to determine the identity of the person in the anonymous QT)

This is essentially the same thing as a one-shot commuter, where I leave the town to avoid being targeted by a night kill.

Why would my role get a flavour name, but ThAd's gets a generic name? It wouldn't.

Admiral Delenda Est, people.

[Belisarius]

EBWOP: Alternatively, lynch me to confirm my roleclaim and

then

lynch ThAd when it's proven true. I have no intention of using my one-shot ability this game, which makes me functionally equivalent to a VT.

[Belisarius]

It doesn't say that I am

required

to post, no -- but if the mod does what I've seen some mods do with the dead QT and send the Forsaken a message that says "You are in this QT with Gaul, an anonymous party" or the like, my fullclaim still gives them what they need to target me. So yeah, not Dreaming this game.

Maybe

if we see a Forsaken flip with Dreaming in their role name, but not until then and maybe not even then.

[Belisarius]

What leaps has Cain made other than guessing that there's an SK based on 2 night kills?

I have no intention of using my ability because of the dangers of Tel'aran'rhiod named in my role PM -- If I can think of the scenario I've drawn out in thread as easily as I have, there's a pretty huge possibility that Ceph has thought of other, even nastier ways to implement the Dream that could kill me in ways I couldn't anticipate. I'd rather take my chances with the NK, especially now that I've fullclaimed and the damage to the scum is done.

[Belisarius]

EBWOP: On a re-read, "the dangers of Tel'aran'rhiod named in my role PM" sounds like it is more specific; it isn't. It just says the Dream is a dangerous place.

[Belisarius]

Ah, I fuzzed over that one because I'm not seriously looking at you as a lynch today.

Assuming there is a SK, I have no idea who the fuck it is.

[Belisarius]

I'm perfectly on-board with the idea of the Dream-kill, if it exists, being X-Shot, but it wouldn't be unprecedented if there was another mechanic, similar to Mafia Poisoner (submits a kill on an odd-numbered night, death takes place on an even-numbered night, so if a tracker scans the Poisoner they're not condemned by it).

Perhaps someone might even have a role that applies to the second killer, like how the Town Apothecary signals the presence of a Poisoner.

As for whether Matt was the scum factional kill or third party/PR kill, I don't see how it makes a difference in terms of catching scum.

[Belisarius]

It's still definitely a PR-

heavy

game with very few vanilla roles.

If there is a SK, 531 makes me think Demon is the most likely candidate -- Vig is always a safe claim for a SK.

@ThAd: The foxhead would explain knowing you've been targeted, but there's nothing commuter-ish about Mat. He couldn't channel, so no Travelling, and he couldn't Dream, which is functionally equivalent to commuting + a splash of danger. Plus, the existence of the foxhead doesn't explain the role name of commuter -- My role name is One-Shot Dreamwalker but the ability is called In The Flesh (This is the only way that Gaul entered the Dream in AMoL) -- there would still be a flavoured role name in addition to the mention of the foxhead.

I don't in the least bit doubt that there would be an addition to the standard role since Ghostlin was a Channeler Dreamwalker and MM's claiming Channeler Doctor with a flavour name that makes sense -- Nynaeve was obsessed with healing with and without the One Power. This, incidentally, is why I believe MM's claim -- someone who hasn't read the series wouldn't have been able to provide a claim that makes that much sense, and why the hell would she claim not to have read the series if she had?

The scum's factional kill wouldn't have anything to do with the One Power even in a game like this where the flavour heavily influences the mechanics, as there were lots of threats in the series who didn't channel -- Padan Fain and Luc/Isam being prime examples.

[Belisarius]

I've never had a mod PM me and say "Hey, Beliscum, here are some fake claims you can use and flavour to go with them." I've always been on my own, as it should be. If I were playing a themed game with a theme I was unfamiliar with, I'd ask my scumbuddy/scumbuddies for advice.

MM's claim -- and the assertion that she's never read WoT -- came on D1. While a flavour-informed scumbuddy could have prepped her on N0, N0 tends to be too short for that kind of strategisation. I see no reason to disbelieve that she's unfamiliar with the theme, and no reason to believe that someone who is unfamiliar with the theme could possibly have come up with such apposite flavour to match a claim.

[Belisarius]

yea, belli might be scum here. Fake claims for theme games are extremely common.

Fake claims for

all

games are extremely common. What the christ does that have to do with anything?

The theme part is just what makes MM's claim believable and ThAd's claim horseshit.

If you think I'm scum, why aren't you voting me?

[Belisarius]

I am/was in Clue Master; it's ongoing, but I've flipped.
I was also in chkflip's DBZ mafia as Hamlet (Hydra with fuzzybutternut) -- a theme game where I had no knowledge of the theme, and I was scum.

[Belisarius]

EBWOP: Clue Master
DBZ

[Belisarius]

The foxhead medallion passively renders the user immune to direct effects of the One Power in flavor

key words there being "passive" and "the One Power"; Commuters decide which nights to commute on, so it's not passive, and can be protected from the NK, and it's a real stretch to imagine the Power being the only way to kill in this game unless

everybody

can channel. Even if you don't believe

any

claims, MattP flipped Birgitte, who could not channel, so it is known that there are non-channellers in the game

[Belisarius]

I'm not

clearing

Mara per se--I think it's possible for her to be fakeclaiming, but quite unlikely.

Also, I know how fakeclaiming works, I've done it quite successfully as scum, derailing a deadline mob on me D2 to survive to the end of the game.

[Belisarius]

EBWOP: How is my argument in favour of townMara worse than the common "townreading X because their posts feel organic"?

[Belisarius]

Only because she hasn't read the books. How would someone who hasn't read the books know enough about Nynaeve's character to put together that claim? Lucky hit on a wiki? What search term would you enter on a wiki to find a good fakeclaim? Or are you suggesting she read far enough into the series to know enough to formulate that claim since the game started?

[Belisarius]

Beli, no, I think the mod gave her the FULL claim, including character and ability. That's pretty standard. It's not weird at all -- and it's by far the most common way to do fakeclaims in small theme games like this.

You have GOT to be shitting me.

[Belisarius]

Horseshit. Horseshit, horseshit, horseshit! And for those of you who still don't know what I mean, it's the shit that comes from a horse.

There is no way I'll believe that. No way.

[Belisarius]

EBWOP: That was @ Amrun

[Belisarius]

Can we finally agree that it's plausible for my read on Mara to be genuine? Because I can't defend my read on her without defending her, and I'm decidedly averse to doing another player's job for them.

[Belisarius]

2 posts b/c phone

But you're freaking town as town town town for not knowing it. SOOOOO town.

So, dead tonight. I'm fine with that as long as my flip makes you lynch ThAd's lying ass

[Belisarius]

I believe your read is genuine.

Good; I'm not willing to vote Mara today, bur I'm willing to entertain the idea of scumMara at LyLo if not before. We good?

[Belisarius]

Probably. I think Orcinus will be ok with letting this lie for today.

Query to both heads: do you think I'm townreading you?

[Belisarius]

I think so. You're interacting with me which to me means you're at least trying to get a read.

In what universe does "trying to get a read" equate to townreading?

Please answer the question I actually asked.

[Belisarius]

Uh.... Would any of our other claimed commuters like to attest that they have an item?

There are no other claimed communism but I've claimed 1Shot Dreamwalker and I sure as hell don't havean item.

[Belisarius]

Eh, by communism I mean commuters.

God donut auto-cucumber

[Belisarius]

So basically you don't think I'll try to negotiate with ThAd. You are correct as far as that goes.

[Belisarius]

Why did you ask if I/we think you are townreading this slot?

Curiosity.

Beli...
quick question to you:
If you don't think the Mod gives out fakecalaims, then why do you doubt ThAd's claim? Someone would have to have some pretty big balls to fake-claim Matt, as he would definitely be in the game..
Also, you know for a fact (since you are familiar with the books) that Matt would know whether or not the One Power was used on him..
Also, Matt's "commuting" is to a different place other than the "dream world"...so if anyone would be a "real" commuter , it would be him...all of this you should know...yet you still call for his head?

Vote: Beli

I doubt ThAd's claim because commuter doesn't fit the setup, and I don't accept the stipulation that Mat would "definitely be in this game;" There are a lot of characters in WoT, and I drew a pretty minor character. There are enough major characters in the series for every player in the game to roll one if that's how the flavour was being done.

[Belisarius]

HIS logic doesn't make sense...
He has shown that he knows the flavor pretty well...He thinks that scum do not get fake claims...so why would scum Fakeclaim a huuuuge main character this early in the game? One that most likely would be in the game?

My logic doesn't make sense

if

one accepts your stipulation that Mat (and by extension, the other 2 main ta'veren) are

definitely

in this game, which as I have stated, I do not. Not everyone has to be a major character, and not all major characters have to be represented. I rolled what amounts to Perrin's sidekick, so I'd expect to see more bit parts and other factions such as Whitecloaks and Seanchan. You could fill 8 of the 13 slots in this game just with major characters from the Two Rivers who showed up in tEotW and were still alive in AMoL.

So are you saying there are night actions that aren't "one power" night actions? If so, maybe I'm not as indestructible as I thought.

It's almost guaranteed. There is lots of killing done in the series that doesn't use the Power. I could easily see the PRs in this game using the One Power quite a lot, but the factional kill is almost certain to be vanilla.

Question: why do you believe mara, but not me?

I've already answered that -- it doesn't make sense to have both Commuters and Dreamwalkers in this game. My one-shot ability is described in my role PM as a way to evade the night kill. That's what a commuter does. If I'd got MattP's role PM I'd probably be voting Mara right now.

[Belisarius]

And you still think an unlimited doc is in the game? Reals?

It's plausible, since the dream isn't safe the way a traditional commuter would be.

More plausible than both Dreamwalkers and traditional commuters in the same game, at any rate.

I'm done addressing the "Scum wouldn't be brave enough to claim Mat" stipulation as it is essentially a game of "is not/is too" and is in no way conducive to catching scum.

[Belisarius]

I only really want to lynch ThAd upon the agreement that if he flips town, we immediately string up Marangal.

I'm fine with this; my reasoning on both players is linked, so I think if I'm wrong about one, I'm probably wrong about both and vice versa.

[Belisarius]

Wait a minute, why are we assuming that if ThAd's flavour name actually is Mat, that makes him town? What's to stop the scum from having names that are aligned with the Light in the source material? The wiki specifically cautions against this.

[Belisarius]

What I'm saying is "Why would we think character names are in any way alignment indicative?"

[Belisarius]

Between #1003 and #1005, when I realised that Swords' entire defence of ThAd was based on the nameclaim being alignment-indicative.

[Belisarius]

Can we stop trying to build a lynch on flavour

How very petulant. It's not flavour alone I'm voting you for -- it's that your unflavoured claim makes no sense when everyone else's has flavour.

[Belisarius]

Jesus, deadline is way too close.

I'm willing to switch to Demon if nobody else is down for lynching ThAd, but I'd rather have ThAd.

Mara, won't you join the winning team?

[Belisarius]

christ

Well, that's hardly an apposite claim, Christ isn't even in

any

of the books.

[Belisarius]

Deadline's fast approaching, Selkies, and I don't think you're getting GCBC today.

ThAd delenda est.

[Belisarius]

I'm the one with only one shot, ThAd didn't claim x-shot.

[Belisarius]

I'm trying to figure out if his "I don't want to enter the dreamworld 'cause I might die!" is scum scarred of death or town trying to use a gamebreakish strat to help town.

How exactly is refusing to use an x-shot role gamebreaking in favour of town?

[Belisarius]

Don't ragequit, your aid may be needed to quicklynch Mara for allowing a NL within shitting distance of deadline

[Belisarius]

Fuck intent, just hammer; hammer fast and hammer hard.

Give me a song or rhythm
Makin' 'em sweat, that's what I'm givin' 'em
Now, they know
You talkin' about the Hammer, you talkin' about a show

[Belisarius]

if I killed Matrim im gonna be sad

Meh, I'm Perrin Aybara's sidekick and I'd be fine with lynching him as long as he's scum

[Belisarius]

If ThAd is town, GCBC needs some serious scrutiny tomorrow.

As would Mara

[Belisarius]

That's kind of hard to believe that Fery wouldn't notice the difrence in user name.

Not at all, it's very subtle.

The difference in avatar is not so subtle, but viewing that as a scumtell is pretty fatuous.

[Belisarius]

2 votes in 2 posts, 6 minutes apart -- both from Orci by the posting style. Wherefore?

Mara's protection claim certainly doesn't do anything to diminish the way her claimed role and ThAd's don't jive, though.

VOTE: Mara

[Belisarius]

Or if Beli still needs to full-claim, I guess.

I fullclaimed in 874.

Demon's role kinda of clears up a huge chunk of this puzzle.

Scum found -- if you didn't know Demon's role, you'd say "Demon's role

would clear up

a huge chunk of this puzzle." Demon hasn't claimed.

People say what they mean. You wouldn't use the wrong tense if you had nothing to hide.

UNVOTE: Mara

One more scum left to find, maybe we can even do it in MyLo.

[Belisarius]

To be consistent with the source material, an

a'dam

would only control those who channeled

sai'dar

; the one that worked on men was one-of-a-kind -- however, I don't think we can safely assume that the source material restrictions apply in-game. The wiki cautions mods of theme games against following source material too slavishly over mafia game mechanics.

Furthermore, if my recollection is correct, my role proves that the source material is

not

in fact followed thus slavishly. My character is not an innate Dreamer like Perrin, he only entered the Dream in the flesh

once

through a Gateway made by...Wise Ones? Windfinders? It might even have been Aes Sedai. I can't remember.

My role PM does not stipulate that I need a channeller to make a Gateway in order to enter the Dream in the flesh.

The name of Demon's roleblock ability suggests the use of the One Power as Rand has never been described as

physically

strong (That would be Perrin, out of the three

ta'veren

), but he was exceptionally strong with the One Power to the point of being able to overpower most female channelers outside of the Forsaken and Nynaeve.

[Belisarius]

I'm pretty sure about Demon and GCBC being scum together, with Mara as the most likely third. I'm not interested in lynching Selkies or Iece.

However, we are in mylo, so I think we need to at least talk about no lynching. Conventional wisdom indicates it's the correct move in this case.

I have to wonder if it's really going to help though -- Nobody seems particularly interested in lynching SoO, Nero or I, so the scum could safely NK any of us without affecting the next town-directed lynch.

Counterarguments?

[Belisarius]

I think that dreamwalking is a terrible idea for all of town

Seconded -- Even if we hit scum today, if there are 2 kills tonight we're in deep shit, and the only time there were 2 kills was when people dreamwalked. I'm still thinking the second kill can only take place in

tel'aran'rhiod

based on this.

[Belisarius]

I've played with Nero lots and don't get the same "this is townNero" from his play that you seem to have gotten, but you seem pretty set on it.

It's not just Selkies; for my own part, I will roast in Hell before I vote Nero today.

I'm torn between Demon and Mara. I'd prefer Demon over GCBC; either's scumflip would be damning to the other, and looking at the game as a whole, GCBC's play has been the more pro-town of the two, so I'm prepared to wait for a flip to re-evaluate GCBC.

[Belisarius]

This is because scum blocking GCBC last night doesn't really make much sense with a claimed doc and a claimed cop AFAICT.

Uh, there's no claimed cop. GCBC claimed watcher. Where did you get a copclaim from?

[Belisarius]

Ah, I see it now; and by saying "of some kind," she kept the scum from realising she'd already blown her investigation.

Hm.

Demon telling the truth would clear him and explain GCBC's lack of results, but I still don't like GCBC's apparent foreknowledge of Demon's role.

[Belisarius]

So do you think its just a two-man team with a dreamwalk SK?

Luc/Isam?

I'm thinking a Lanfear or Moghedien is more likely, though.

[Belisarius]

I don't know the flavour, but aren't all the Aes Saedari women so 'Green Brother', for example, would be very odd.

1) Not only Aes Sedai can dreamwalk. Rand, Rahvin, Luc/Isam, and Perrin all do it naturally, as early as Book 1, and they're male.

2) Dreamwalkers can alter their appearance within the context of the dream. IIRC, Rand does just that in Book 3. It'd be a piece of piss for someone as adept as Rand to take on a female appearance.

[Belisarius]

EBWOP: Also, Ghostlin's flip renders Mara's point null. Aviendha was not Aes Sedai. Thus, Mara's mention of sisters strikes me as a means of chewing up time before deadline with irrelevancies

VOTE: Mara

[Belisarius]

I'm also pretty sure that I mentioned sisters right when I explained my dream-walking Yesterday, so how is me talking about sisters now me chewing up time? everyone in the QT were all female

And I'm pretty sure SoO is right about you knowing more about the source material than you're letting on, which means that you know that {colour} sister where {colour} is within a subset of seven specific colours is a reference to Aes Sedai within the WoT framework, and it would be easy to get those of us who liked the books sidetracked into a big discussion about Aes Sedai given the huge role they play within the story.

But it won't work, because Ghostlin's flip proves that this nonsense about sisters is not germane to Empking's alignment or anyone else's.

[Belisarius]

Nero/Beli/EMP scum team 2013

You really think the

entire

scumteam is on your wagon?

[Belisarius]

it's true that there are indeed Red sisters in the game.

What makes you so sure?

[Belisarius]

Nero/Beli/EMP scum team 2013

VOTE: Demon

The Rule of 3 says there's a partner in there.

I'm not ready to risk a vote yet though, since our collective unwillingness to no-lynch makes today the equivalent of 5p lylo.

GCBC can't be scum unless Selkies is as well, which would mean rule of 3 is wrong in this case. Thus, I believe GCBC's investigation.
scumSelkies wouldn't back up GCBC's result on Iece due to a poor risk/benefit ratio.
SoO is confTown as far as I'm concerned for sending a ring to Nero -- I'm betting the ring was a 1-shot dreamwalk, too bad Nero didn't use it last night.

So yeah, Iece/Emp it is.

I Dreamwalked last night hoping that with Moghedien out of the picture it would be safe and the scum would shoot at me for being the player under the least amount of pressure. Nobody else entered

tel'aran'rhiod

.

[Belisarius]

Empking who did you block last night?

I didn't do anything last night. I believe in GB's claim; it supports what I believed yesterday. Obviously I don't think I'm scum; I think Selkie's quick change of vote yesterday didn't seem like what an ignorant townie would do.

Belis: Have you seen, seen used, the 'rule of three before'.

I haven't used it before, but I've had it correctly used against me. Lost D2 in a newbie game.

[Belisarius]

Link?

Here you go

[Belisarius]

VOTE: Iecerint

[Belisarius]

Swords, GCBC, any useful night action results?

I did not receive an invention.

If not methinks we should lynch between me and Emp still.

[Belisarius]

@Beli... when you night walked by yourself did you get your own QT

No, I did not.

[Belisarius]

Fantastic!

So now Emp and I crossvote, leaving the hammer in confTown hands.

Til shade is gone, til water is gone, into the shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with my last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the Last Day! Fuck yeah!

VOTE: Empking

Now: Iece's flip shows us that scum

did

have limited daytalk via the Encryptor ability. Who's the one person in this game who has exhibited symptoms of having daytalk? That's right, Demon. His refusal to claim when called upon makes perfect sense in the context of talking over his claim with his scumbuddy Iece.

Emp's reaction to my rule of 3 post is equally scummy; coming from a town mindset, anything that narrows the lynch pool is good. Why didn't Emp just gun for me right from the get-go? Because he was hoping to push for a mislynch of Selkies or GCBC. It's the only thing that makes sense.

[Belisarius]

Vote: No Lynch - Even numbers.

Seriously?

We had even numbers yesterday and you didn't bring this up.

No lynching does not narrow the suspect pool at all. It's you or me, 100%. There's a 0% chance either of us would NK the other -- it would actually be violating the siterule against playing against your wincon.

What are you even trying to accomplish here?

Infowar a Roleblocker who suspected Selkie's as I indicated yesterday (and everyday since I replaced in) then I would've targeted Selkie's and claimed the same

You wouldn't even have

considered

no-actioning to avoid muddying up the waters for GCBC? Don't forget it was

Iece's

flip that made GCBC conftown based on the fact we weren't endgamed yesterday or before.

[Belisarius]

I don't understand your meaning.

As of the time that Selkies confirmed GCBC's role yesterday, he could

only

have been scum with Selkies; since Iece flipped scum, had they been scum together yesterday would have been 3scum vs. 3town, which is endgame. It was not necessary to see Selkies flip to confirm GCBC, therefore he was confirmed town as of time to submit night actions. Ergo, by

not

roleblocking, you can't be identified as a potential killer by the watcher. As town going into effective-lylo, you don't want to give the scum ammo to use to mislynch you, so no-action is the optimal action to take, unless you're trying to block the kill.

It wouldn't make sense for scum-Selkies to help GCBC lynch her partner in mylo instead of going for the win, so if you were town,

I

should have been your top scumspect. If you were trying to block the kill, you would have roleblocked

me

. Nobody else. Only scum wouldn't have wanted to do it knowing that I already used my 1-shot ability and had no role to block.

[Belisarius]

Not 100% confirmed, no, but it would make more

sense

for scumSelkies to go for the win instead of bussing. From any point of view except mine, I would have been

far

likelier to be scum than Selkies.

[Belisarius]

Godfather is not an investigative role, therefore Cops can't be a godfather per Selkies' Dreamer result.

Time to hammer this win, Swords.

[Belisarius]

Fuckballs.

[Belisarius]

cabd played an excellent game

Agreed; that play was easily worth a metric fuckton of Magnificent Bastard points.

I, conversely, might as well have been a fourth scum given how I consistently played into their hands.

I love that I correctly guessed that scum had a kill that only worked in tel'aran'rhiod, but hate that the scum knew when I'd dreamwalk.

Also xD @ tel'an'droid in the QT.

Thanks for modding this, Ceph. 10/10 would play again.

[Belisarius]

Guys that was only half me. Well the last day was all me but yeah

I was null on you most of the game, then scumreading you until Selkies backed you up. The last day was what counted most.

[Belisarius]

That's my fault, too. I was

so sure

.