Mini 1451: A Memory of Light (Game Over)

[Selkies]

/confirm

hi guys

- f

[Selkies]

I already have my lynchlist. You guys are so transparent.

-o

[Selkies]

VOTE: MattP

Nope not doing theory discussion today

[Selkies]

VOTE: Demon

Better?

[Selkies]

Why would you claim this?

I'll counter your question

What harm is there in claiming VT?

Define 'harm'. Three possibilities exist.

You could be an actual VT. In which case, you're telling the truth, no harm no foul. Although we're not massclaiming Day 1, or even all the VTs claiming Day 1.

You could be a PR that wants to claim VT to hide what you're doing. This, in and of itself isn't harmful to town.

You could be a scum, claiming VT in a bid to deflect suspicion on yourself. In which case this could be a gambit, and harmful to Town.

I fail to see how this line of questioning is helpful to town.

[Selkies]

I already have my lynchlist. You guys are so transparent.

LYNCH ALL LIARS!!!!

vote: selkies

You're next.

If Matt's aim was to argue theory, he could've easily breezed through what Ghostlin said because what he said was weak. Meaning it looks like Matt's trying to get a read on Ghost.

...Meaning you have now managed to make not 1 but 2 horrible votes in the course of 17 minutes.

Unvote, Vote: Selkies

I like how you tried to come up with a legitimate reason to disguise your OMGUS. Why not just play it as it is?

Your first paragraph makes no sense. Matt is trying to get Ghost to argue theory with him, no?

[Selkies]

Wake me up when RVS is over

- f

[Selkies]

Wake me up when RVS is over

- f

[Selkies]

...

Come on man it's almost like you didn't even read my 31.

Keep preaching by the wiki... show me 3 examples where you've caught scum by using OMGUS

And no Matt is attacking Ghost's agenda.

I never said OMGUS was scummy. Try again.

As far as I am concerned Matt is asking asinine questions and baiting ghost to sink into a deep shithole of theory discussion.

[Selkies]

VOTE: selkies

Nope, that's my tactic, not yours.

I never said OMGUS was scummy. Try again.

Yup my bad there.

So you think Matt is being scummy and your vote is still on me for some unexplained reason...

Not scummy. Just stupid and probably anti-town.

I'm voting you for the same reason I vote everyone in RVS.

[Selkies]

And that's the second time you're pointing out something I didn't actually say

But that's okay, you're probably town.

VOTE: Matt

[Selkies]

I already have my lynchlist. You guys are so transparent.

LYNCH ALL LIARS!!!!

vote: selkies

don't feel left out, orcinus will get around to you.

[Selkies]

So you found Matt antitown and found the reasoning of my vote on you to be illegitimate and you still just waltz around in this game chilling in the RVS.

Are you trying to say something here?

I find Matt antitown, I don't know if he's scum yet or not.

I find the reason for you voting me to be illegitimate, but why should I find that scummy?

I wouldn't call this RVS (which I equate with a waste of time) given I already have a pretty decent town read. I know what I want to achieve with my votes and posts, which fundamentally differs it from "random" voting. But okay, feel free it that.

Who's scum from your POV?

[Selkies]

Can you take a fucking stance wow, is your vote on Matt right now random or because what?

You and Matt are my scummiest reads (as I have been stating basically this whole game so far).

Stance on what?

Matt is null but I think I can figure him out.

Why are we a scumread again

[Selkies]

Can't remember if I posted these

orcinus - http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=20360

fferyllt - http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=20541

Our previous Selkies game - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=27165

We should have named ourselves Jekyll Hydra.

[Selkies]

^^ - f

[Selkies]

Wake me up when RVS is over

- f

I'm liking you for town, too.

- f

[Selkies]

@Selkies A lot of my scum read on you was predicated on you not being in RVS... so either I'm missing something big here or you were just being cryptic. Why am I town? What part of my 43 did you find town..? And who's scum, ty.

I (fferyllt) don't do RVS at least as it's defined at MS. orcinus does, and he was still doing it at the time he voted you, though we we were already discussing player reactions.

orcinus thought your reactions to his vote and to Matt's VT claim looked townish. I agreed. Your reply to my "wake me when RVS is over" joke gave me an opportunity to say what I was thinking, so it wasn't so much your post 43's content. It was just a good place to directly interact with you in the game (though you've been interacting plenty with orcinus).

As far as scum go, I'm not liking Nero Cain too much for town. And milkshake's entrance was a little unsettling as well.

When orcinus is around we'll discuss what to do next with our vote because our next vote will be probably be all serioous and stuff.

- f

[Selkies]

Yep, RVS is always me. Fery always signs her posts with -f, and I think i'll sign my own posts in this game too since nobody here really has enough meta to tell us apart.

My RVS play is focused on getting reactions and getting reads on people, throwing my vote around *strategically* helps me do that.

This, however, is a scum vote.

VOTE: Milkshake

-o

[Selkies]

Selkies I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to say by me "giving you an opportunity to say something"?

hmm. Let me say it another way.

I could have just said "hey, demon is looking pretty town" in a random post. But, since you quoted and replied to me, I used that post to reply directly back. Post 43 wasn't some sort of tipping point in my analysis of whether you look town or scum right now. Makes sense?

- f

[Selkies]

(while fery murders bolivian children...)

Nero, if Milkshake flips town, who's scum?

[Selkies]

Where did ghostlin go on that list?

-o

[Selkies]

Demon

Why did the Fery head not vote me if I'm her #1 suspect?

Why are you asking Demon this question and not us? I'll let him answer though if you want.

[Selkies]

(while fery murders bolivian children...)

IT'S COLORADAN QUINOA DAMN IT!!!

- f

[Selkies]

Demon

Why did the Fery head not vote me if I'm her #1 suspect?

Look at this mind reading.

- f

[Selkies]

Oh.

Oh I thought you were addressing the post to demon.

WHOOPS.

Thanks, I don't agree but okay. We don't view you to be our #1 suspect, we have both of you as probable scum, and we both felt that we would get more information from hopping on the milkshake wagon rather than trying to divert it to you.

I personally think milkshake's wagon is probably town-driven.

-o

[Selkies]

As far as scum go, I'm not liking Nero Cain too much for town. And milkshake's entrance was a little unsettling as well

So my name being first has nothing to do with anything. ok

No there is meaning to my ordering of your names. It is chronological.

- f

[Selkies]

As far as scum go, I'm not liking Nero Cain too much for town. And milkshake's entrance was a little unsettling as well

So my name being first has nothing to do with anything. ok

No there is meaning to my ordering of your names. It is chronological.

- f

Any reasoning?

Yesterday it was mostly gut on both our parts. Today it looks like you are trying to influence bandwagons while keeping your hands clean.

milkshake's page 4 posts ping pretty hard.

Sticking on top of page as well to make sure this gets seen.

I have decided that certain things have been implemented in a harsher way than I intended them to be. As a result, I have changed Procedural Rule 7, which now reads:

7. Nights last 72 hours. The first 24 hours of night will be a 'twilight' period during which Day actions may still be submitted (it will otherwise by identical to Night). Weekends count as one day for purposes of both twilight and night.

[Selkies]

^^ 125 was -f

[Selkies]

So fery and I are mostly satisfied with the last two posts. Milkshake can be town for now.

VOTE: Nero/VOTE:

I'll always be wary of Matt. Him lying/gambiting/reaction fishing is null but I'd strongly consider his lynch in a few days if we seem to not be hitting on scum. My vote is on Selk and yea it was RVS. I wouldn't consider a Selk lynch at all. I haven't found anything to yell at yet hence why I'm sitting on my RVS.

Considering that you have no better options right now, why aren't you considering Matt right now? After all, you seem to be amenable to the idea of lynching him. And see also my reasons in post #75.

Why is milkshake trying to bait me into lynching Matt?

(you later state that this 'bait' is scummy)

I dont' understand this, and I would have asked the same question. It's not protown to sit on your ass like you were, leaving your vote on a person you think is *town*. It seems a legitimate question, and I don't see why it's scummy at all. It didn't seem to me like milk was trying to bait you into voting Matt, rather it was an honest question as to why your posts seemed contradictory.

Why did you want to ask Nero Cain in particular...?

This is dumb as hell considering it was, y'know, nero cain that had his vote sitting on a townread.

[Selkies]

VOTE: nero

[Selkies]

SOO's vote seems to be a follow the leader vote

I could buy that. You think he may have listed a buddy in Demon/Selk?

Considering you never voiced suspicion of us before this this seems OMGUSy

[Selkies]

I like your analyses, Amrun. Welcome to the game.

orcinus takes some getting used to. by some accounts, so do I. My RVS joke was to let folks know that it was orcinus moving our vote around earlier. I don't do RVS. Our first serious vote was on milkshake, but we changed our minds pretty quickly based on his response to the quick pile of votes. Our current vote is also serious.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

Orcinus here, been busy lately, sorry for the inactivity. Quick thoughts before I go sleep: Amrun town, Nero read getting fuzzier, Milkshake+Ghostlin town.

Iece might be scum.

I'll catch up soon.

[Selkies]

Nero: #83 shows that he was leery of 'shake before the vote was placed, which makes #85 null, not scummy; #105 shows a kind of mindset which I share, which makes me more sanguine about him.

If Nero is scum, Bel is the partner.

[Selkies]

town don't say this. FFery seems like she'd fight things tooth and nail.

FFery is more interested in figuring out if people are town or scum than in what they think about her alignment, especially when playing as a hydra. And an effortlessly well reasoned argument for finding something I post questionable usually makes a townish impression on me.

- f

[Selkies]

why are you calling cops out for lurking when others are doing the same?

Why do you have a problem with me calling out cops for lurking? Selk is lurking but that's likely scum anyways. You're lurking a bit. So, sure, I'll entertain the idea that you are scum but I'm more interested in a milk/selk/soo group but sure, I can do a milk/selk/soo/missdes group.

So who wants to claim to be the stupid townie?

lol

no we're not lurking. orcinus is busy with school and I've been busy with a bunch of almost-nightfalls and daybreaks and lylos and shit. Right now, I'm waiting to catch orcinus online again to catch up our thoughts on this game.

last time we chatted, we thought milkshake was looking better. that might change. I'm still liking Amrun for town.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

Ghostlin, if you mean that they're sucking up to me and I suspect them, well, yes, that's true, but I haven't decided if it's genuine or not. It's something scum might do to town that enters the game strong and it's also something town might do with a town read, so...

That was it. The kind of sucking up+the not a defense.

I am usually pretty vocal about my town reads. orcinus is not so free with them.

- f

[Selkies]

Amrun,

You have talked a fair bit about us, but I can't find anything you've actually asked us about.

If we are that big of a concern, why aren't you trying to engage?

- f

[Selkies]

I'm more concerned with Ghostlin atm, and I was waiting for you to give some semblance of reply to my post that featured you, which you have so far failed to do.

And it is my experience that engaging with disorganized hydra such as yourself is fairly unproductive. That being said, when the time is right, I will engage as I see fit.

I read your post. For the most part you were asking about orcinus' posts. I believe I did say something about the post of mine that you pointed up. orcinus should be posting in this thread later today. I've told him he'll find some of Nero Cain's posts interesting. IMO Cain is doing exactly what he accuses me of doing. He's sucking up to you.

- f

damn it.

[Selkies]

IMO Cain is doing exactly what he accuses me of doing. He's sucking up to you.

I accused you of sucking up to Amrun? no. I think I rather kill this today instead of Milkshake. Make it so guys.

Apologies. I got you confused with Ghostlin.

- f

god damn it.

I'm going to bed.

[Selkies]

I'm sorry it's contagious. I've been terrible today.

- f

[Selkies]

I'll always be wary of Matt. Him lying/gambiting/reaction fishing is null but I'd strongly consider his lynch in a few days if we seem to not be hitting on scum. My vote is on Selk and yea it was RVS.

I wouldn't consider a Selk lynch at all.

I haven't found anything to yell at yet hence why I'm sitting on my RVS.

I interpreted that as a town read, as only people I read as town are people I "wouldn't consider a lynch at all."

No. I had no reason to suspect Selk yet. They weren't a "town" read but they weren't a scum read and I try to lynch my scum reads and not my null reads.

No, that's not how that post works. When you say you wouldn't consider somebody's lynch at all, you imply that you wouldn't consider them being scum (assuming you want to lynch scum).

Forced misrepresentation of own post to make your OMGUS on us seem more natural. Pretty sure scum intentions.

[Selkies]

This post pinged my scumdar hard. Demon is right on the money that Selkies is saying a lot without having any firm opinions, and this post (while it gets points for being unapologetic about it) only makes matters worse.

Matt is null, but I'm voting him while criticizing others for not voting scum reads, "but I think we can figure him out."

Tell me, HOW is making a vote and then declaring that you only read him as null going to help you "figure him out?" You haven't engaged Matt in any way. You are NOT trying to figure him out.

And early image consciousness.

Yup, definitely liking Selkie for scum at this point.

What firm opinions do you want me to have on like page 3

That's why I throw my vote around and see what sticks. To establish those firm opinions.

In retrospect, my answer to that question probably wasn't optimal wrt scumhunting or determining Matt's alliance. But I was asked it straight up by a person who was scumreading me, so I thought it best to be honest in that situation.

Anyways, you've shown it to be bad town play, but not scummy. Where's the scum intention?

[Selkies]

1) No, I'm voting for Milk because a push on a claimed VT is pretty terrible, actually.

Wait why

Why is a push on a p1 claimed VT by a person with a meta of claiming VT "terrible"

[Selkies]

Hahahahahahahaha

[Selkies]

Orc doesn't deny they are a scum slot.

Neither did you. Town players usually don't give a shit about "die scum".


- f

[Selkies]

This post pinged my scumdar hard. Demon is right on the money that Selkies is saying a lot without having any firm opinions, and this post (while it gets points for being unapologetic about it) only makes matters worse.

Matt is null, but I'm voting him while criticizing others for not voting scum reads, "but I think we can figure him out."

Tell me, HOW is making a vote and then declaring that you only read him as null going to help you "figure him out?" You haven't engaged Matt in any way. You are NOT trying to figure him out.

And early image consciousness.

Yup, definitely liking Selkie for scum at this point.

What firm opinions do you want me to have on like page 3

That's why I throw my vote around and see what sticks. To establish those firm opinions.

In retrospect, my answer to that question probably wasn't optimal wrt scumhunting or determining Matt's alliance. But I was asked it straight up by a person who was scumreading me, so I thought it best to be honest in that situation.

Anyways, you've shown it to be bad town play, but not scummy. Where's the scum intention?

You can have an unfirm opinion on page 3, but you were trying to weasel out of saying anything one way or another until you were asked directly. The scum motivation is not committing to a stance early on so you can take whatever stance is most advantageous later on. The most dangerous thing scum can do is take an early arbitrary stance.

1) No, I'm voting for Milk because a push on a claimed VT is pretty terrible, actually.

Wait why

Why is a push on a p1 claimed VT by a person with a meta of claiming VT "terrible"

Agree with this. It's NOT terrible ... at all.

We're having more of a mismatch in terms of online time this game due to school and stuff than in our previous game. There's a 15 hour time zone difference involved. This delays our discussions about the game and players' posts.

Right now, our strongest scum reads are Nero Cain and Beli.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

1) No, I'm voting for Milk because a push on a claimed VT is pretty terrible, actually.

Wait why

Why is a push on a p1 claimed VT by a person with a meta of claiming VT "terrible"

????

It's MattP who has the meta for claiming VT, not Milkshake.

...yeah, scum.

^^ - o

[Selkies]

Ghostlin, if you mean that they're sucking up to me and I suspect them, well, yes, that's true, but I haven't decided if it's genuine or not. It's something scum might do to town that enters the game strong and it's also something town might do with a town read, so...

That was it. The kind of sucking up+the not a defense

.

@Ghostlin I attributed this post of yours to Nero Cain. The behaviors I thought were sucking up (and still do) were his solicitous conversations going over assorted potential scum partners of mine.

I am not scum. Right now, I think that Nero Cain and Beli are scum. Orcinus agrees.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

But hey, a genuine thanks for talking *to* me instead of *about* me, Ghostlin.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

You can have an unfirm opinion on page 3, but you were trying to weasel out of saying anything one way or another until you were asked directly. The scum motivation is not committing to a stance early on so you can take whatever stance is most advantageous later on. The most dangerous thing scum can do is take an early arbitrary stance.

Well, no.

I have unfirm opinions on page 3. There's no point in me voicing them because they're next to useless. I wasn't trying to weasel out of it--see here, you contradict yourself. I didn't want to say what my stance on Matt was, but once again, Demon was getting very irritated with us and we were townreading him and so in that situation, I wanted to be honest.

I use all my votes in RVS as reaction tests. I try to stir stuff up so I have something to work with (and bring us out of RVS). Demon's vote helped me in getting a read on him. However, when I voted Matt, Matt just...left. So that was not my intention, and gave me nothing wrt information about his alliance.

I didn't want to say blatantly that Matt was a scumread, especially since this hydra is coming off a game where we got a lot of flak for fakeclaiming PGO as innocent child, and Matt wasn't really a scumread. And like you said, if we said that voting Matt was a reaction test, it would negate the point of the reaction test. So what the fuck was I supposed to do? I went with trying to quell Demon a little by giving him the truth. So obviously, that wasn't pro-town play, but it was pro-me, and I'm town, so I'm still moderately content about how that went down.

Anything more?

[Selkies]

I didn't want to say blatantly that Matt was a scumread, especially since this hydra is coming off a game where we got a lot of flak for fakeclaiming PGO as innocent child, and Matt wasn't really a scumread

I'm not sure this is comparing apples to apples. Also, this is stupid considering how Innocent Child works.

It was a confirmable IC, as in, it wasn't announced at daystart and could mod-confirm us whenever we wanted at any point in the game.

And not really. I'm comparing them because that experience made me less prone to lying about stuff, even when I think it benefits town.

[Selkies]

So may I assume you're totally unwilling to lynch Selkies today?

What the fuck is this post

[Selkies]

GCBC: Amrun is town, you can say that RVS actions are scummy. Using it to justify "hard ping scumdar" on page 8 or whatever it was is weak, but it's not that out of order

[Selkies]

VOTE: Beli

[Selkies]

Ugh...

Damn HD

VOTE: Demon

I'm currently feeling this the strongest. his seemingly opportunistic hops on the most popular bandwagons (first milkshake, and now Beli) is far to much for me to ignore.

Ffery, why so?

~Miss

Hello it's Orci that has been posting you should feel bad for not telling us apart

How exactly is Beli vote opportunistic hop?

This post rings alarm bells

[Selkies]

Ghost looks town everyone can stop tunneling him

Why is self preservation scummy exactly that's stupid

[Selkies]

Like me dying is not really pro-town

Oh yeah demon ghost is town. I just want to say that again.

[Selkies]

Seriously... we should be lynching Beli mainly for his 256. He's trying to look like he's a participant in the scumhunt and is just sniping comments out from the sidelines. 210 - same thing... the single most significant thing he's talked about is theory and later slaps down a vote on Ghost for an alleged misrep. Literally no taken stances on anything else.

Yes I can agree with this

Did you see 313

[Selkies]

Ghost being town also makes me worry about amrun

[Selkies]

You know how town reads are fluid?

Yeah

[Selkies]

OH HOW PREDICTABLE. Hahahaha.

None of your original "town feelings" for me had ANYTHING at all to do with Ghostlin, but I was generally received positively so your view was positive too. As soon as you see a foothold, you "worry." You're scum. K. Moving on.


Someone asked me (Demon, I think) why self preservation is scummy. That is like mafia 101. Self preservation has always, and will always, be scummy. Not that town should be leaping on the sword, but there's a different mindset to being town and self preservation isn't part of it.


And as for Demon, your hypocrisy is ridiculous. You want to lynch Beli for acting like he's part of scumhunting when he isn't, and you can't even be arsed to read the game and have the gall to act like you're contributing to scumhunting in any meaningful manner. (Hint: you are not.)

That was mostly my town read of you. not sure how strongly orcinus agreed. Since then, tbh your posts confuse me. I really can't figure out your approach to this game.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

Well, it's our first game together (the fferyllt half of Selikes, that is) and you've kinda thrown my original calibration.

orcinus and I have ghost and demon as solid town. I am going to try to work outwards from there. And I'm good with our vote being on Beli.

[Selkies]

Ghost is town and I'm not saying anything more

[Selkies]

I've been calling ghost town since his first crumb jesus christ amrun you're really losing it

[Selkies]

And ghost's crumbs were fucking terrible

[Selkies]

That said, something Selkies said has been giving me second thoughts about Ghostlin. I would love to hear a short summary of why Ghostlin is town from Selkies.

You still need to ask?

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

Like doing that in such an IDIOTIC FUCKING WAY makes me think you probably are town, but still makes your post about selkies make NO SENSE EVER AT ALL IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD. Either way you shouldn't be able to hide it for terribly long.

Unvote

VOTE: Selkies

This is pretty dumb.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

Like doing that in such an IDIOTIC FUCKING WAY makes me think you probably are town, but still makes your post about selkies make NO SENSE EVER AT ALL IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD. Either way you shouldn't be able to hide it for terribly long.

Unvote

VOTE: Selkies

This is pretty dumb.

- fferyllt

Why is it dumb

What does dumb mean exactly use a better word

He's voting the player(s) who recognized what was happening with Ghostlin and tried to warn him (and others) off. I'm not really sure what else to call it, given that I think he's town.

But, the read's a little shakier. jesus christ that was a terrible move. And afraid to back off because scum might notice? It's not that hard. Town players change their minds all the time. It's one of the things that differentiates town from scum.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

No, I'm not AFRAID to back off. I just don't play on this basic abc level where everything is fucking literal.

I didn't want to give the impression that I changed my mind for a multitude of reasons, notably because scum is a lot more likely to kill a universal townread that they probably realize is a pr but may be inclined to keep him alive if the most active player still suspects him. I was TRYING to distract scum from his obvious hints and it had a chance of working until he decided to freaking announce it.

Pretending that seeing breadcrumbs and making them EVEN MORE OBVIOUS is a TOWN move is also ridiculous. Scum has no motivation to push on someone who is obviously a pr (they won't get lynched in the end and they are afraid of being openly "wrong," but being right and calling him town early makes them look good) but has every motivation to make it more obvious and not obfuscate it when they see it.

There is a middle ground between sledging someone into claiming and crowning them most obvtown player in the game.

- fferyllt

dammit

[Selkies]

I'm not sure you know what the term "sledge" means. It has nothing to do with the number of votes.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ThAdmiral

What's wrong with talking a lot?

This is almost RVSy

But anyways, Amrun, Milkshake, and Ghostlin are solid town.

Can we just lynch Beli now

[Selkies]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ThAdmiral

What's wrong with talking a lot?

This is almost RVSy

But anyways, Amrun, Milkshake, and Ghostlin are solid town.

Can we just lynch Beli now

[Selkies]

oh yeah, fery and I just talked. we should also be looking at Miss Destroyer, they're cruising.

[Selkies]

VOTE: Belisarius

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ThAdmiral

What's wrong with talking a lot?

Anyone else getting bussing vibes from this?

This is a most excellent interpretation

[Selkies]

You were more active as minimal

[Selkies]

Swords, I initially liked your reason because it was the most detailed on of those on the Milkshake wagon and I had glazed through it. there are nearly 2 pages of between those two posts you have stated and a few people have made good points on you as well, which caused me to reconsider. That, and I had taken a closer look at that post and realized it wasn't as good as I had originally thought

This *might* be a link between SOO and Miss Des. Sure, as the pressure on SOO heated up she kinda backtracked to distance herself. But I'd be tempted to kill this when/if SOO flips scum.

Might be something to that.

What are your thoughts about Beliasaurus?

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

milkshake isn't on Ghostlin. sword of omens is.

I knew that. I even deleted the right one. v.v

[Selkies]

Miss Destroyer why is it that you have been on Demon for the last week but not done shit to try and push his wagon since your vote?

orcinus is not going to be posting much if at all for the next few days. I'll probably get sloppy about signing posts during this period.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

@GCBC, I'll have a look at the game you found. Thanks for the heads up.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

@ beli: it's pretty much you versus milk for top lynch spot now. You might as well jump on milk now, for self preservation reasons if nothing else.

I'm not voting Milk because I do not want him (her? I don't know what pronoun to use) dead at this time. My vote goes on my top scumread, and self-preservation be hanged.

I like this reply a lot.

UNVOTE: beli

orcinus may disagree.

Miss Destroyer, I'd like an answer to the question I asked you on Saturday.

VOTE: Miss Destroyer

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

I wasn't going to come back here until HD caught up so that we could talk, but he decided to bail... that might mean I'll be that much more active though

Ffery, It was sunday for me and I'm pretty sure I was around for my higher priority games, not even touching any of my Hydra games. I did question Demon when I made the initial vote, I'm pretty sure I did and then I remember Swords saying something that caught my attention.

I made like, 2 posts though since I voted him. One was me questioning me him, and another was me trying to figure out why Swords pushed Ghost over me when, in the past he was never shy about doing such.

since it's just me now though...

I don't like how Demon try's to subtly try to get me not voting him. at the time, we had about a week left and as such, there was no need to be on a "Plausible realistic lynch wagon" since, everything is pretty much free-game at this point.

His early push on Matt was shit and his reason for not believing that he was scum was a terrible twist of Burden of efficiency and it was a push on him being more anti-town than scum

His vote on Selkies was terrible and again, it was placed because they were Anti-town and his vote is essentially OMGUS. He's trying to keep his cool under then (Orci?) pressure and looks like he doesn't want to be seen as someone who is over-reacting

People have started to talk about Beli-scum while he was still lightly pursuing other avenues then, he suddenly votes for Beli...

the vote was opportunistic because

People were already expressing interest in Beli-scum while he was not. Beli was already obtaining verbal pressure when Demon voted him which is usually a good indication of a wagon picking up.

being the first two voters on a lynching wagon is good for scum because those people usually receive the least amount of pressure. I believe I caught scum a few times for them being early on a lynch wagon.

The fact that most of his votes were either the first or second vote placed, and he moves his vote as soon as a wagon seems to be loosing steam strengthens the fact that Demon is scum.

We've got four days. I have zero confidence that town is going to come to a well informed consensus lynch atm.

[Selkies]

Milks reactions to everything are terrible.

terrible scummy or terrible townie?

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

Milks reactions to everything are terrible.

terrible scummy or terrible townie?

- fferyllt

I don't even know, I want to call it scum terrible posts. He's moved from calling people scum to trying to placate them... I think. It feels like he's overwhelmed like he doesn't know how to get out of being caught

I don't know either, but there's something that strikes me as genuine in his posts trying to explain his thoughts about the game.

I've played with some really terrible town in some recent games. If that's what is going on with milkshake I think I'll eventually be able to tell. And orcinus thought he was town last time we touched bases (which was several days ago).

Demon, I was talking to Swords about the crumbs though I would still much rather prefer you. I can't quote where you have been opportunistic because it isn't your posts themselves, on their own they are null but it's more of what has been happening around it, the environment of which you have made your posts. The environment that I have explained when I stated that I believed you to be scum

UNVOTE: Ms Marangal

I know it's kinda not fun to move forward in games without input from your hydra buddies, but waiting for hydra synch-up comes off as tentative and being uncommunicative. I think acting on your own when necessary will go a long way toward dispelling concerns. And I need to take my own advice on that issue.

Let's find scum.

- f

[Selkies]

Leaning Town

milkshake (orcinus agreed)
Amrun - (orcinus agreed)
GCBC - was leaning scum, but I've changed my mind. I wish you guys would indicate who makes your posts. I don't know you well enough to figure it out.
Ghostlin - leaning town
Beliasaurus - (somewhat tentative and mostly based on the post that drew my unvote. Orcinus had him leaning scum last we talked)

Null

MattP (orcinus leans town I think. I need more posts to figure him out)
Iecerint (this is my fault, will work on his iso today)
Demon - (fallen from a town read for me. orcinus had a town read last we talked. I think there's something to MsM's observations)

Leaning Scum

SoO
Nero Cain (he recovered a little from our early scum read, but has mostly faded into the woodwork lately)


4 days left. Let's see some reads lists guys.

- f

[Selkies]

^^ Missed Ms Marangal. I have her leaning town now.

[Selkies]

^^ jesus christ and thAdmiral. leaning scum.

[Selkies]

Selkies, 563 didn't read like a town post to me. Not only did he not bother to figure out which person MM was talking to, he used it for a rather opportunistic push.

Noted. Of my leaning town he's probably the weakest, but I didn't see the post as an opportunistic push. The game is scarily stalled given the approaching deadline and there's no real town bloc formed though there are enough town reads that some of us ought to be talking about getting a good lynch out of this mess.

- f

[Selkies]

also, I approve of your new av.

- f

[Selkies]

I'm not willing to lynch milkshake at this time. If orcinus shows up before nightfall (and he probably will) and agrees to a milkshake lynch I'll go along with it, but not very happily.
- f

[Selkies]

that helps explain most of what pinged.

tks

- f

[Selkies]

Ffery, explain that scum-read to me?

Not sure which one you are asking about?

[Selkies]

The ThAdmiral one? Mostly it's his interactions with Beliasaurus and Amrun. In some of his wagon-hops I don't pick up any sense of conviction or real reason for the changes.

- f

[Selkies]

What kind of town gets called scum and is all like “OK!!!”

Someone who is more interested in finding a player who could be town than in a potential vote on their own bandwagon.

Hi, I'm fferyllt. p sure my approach to mafia isn't complete suckage.

- f

[Selkies]

VOTE: ThAdmiral

- f

[Selkies]

Me?

SoO is not my primary scum read. I'd prefer a Nero Cain lynch but that's not going to happen. Of my other scum reads, I'm most concerned about ThAdmiral, so that's where my vote goes. I'll compromise if I have to.

- f

[Selkies]

He quit posting.

the thing that really bothered me about his posts when he was active was that he'd ask other players loaded questions in the general form of "What did you make of so-and-so's super-scummy post" when they'd be working out their reads on other players.

I'll gather up some examples of this tonight.

[Selkies]

^^ to elaborate a little, I think of that kind of behavior as attempting to control the game's narrative.

- f

[Selkies]

Demon

Why did the Fery head not vote me if I'm her #1 suspect?

This was one of the examples I was thinking about, but rereading it, he was answering a question with "demon" and was asking Selkies/us why I didn't vote him when I said I suspected him. At the time, he was not my number 1 suspect though - just the first person who had pinged for me. my other suspect at the time was milkshake, and I think that's where orcinus had put our vote.

SOO's vote seems to be a follow the leader vote

I could buy that. You think he may have listed a buddy in Demon/Selk?

^^ this is an example of him trying to push associations when other people bring up scummy looking players.

She was picking up on some things from Nero that I also picked up on (hesitance to commit to an opinion) and while she seemed to view this less negatively than me, she was harrying Nero to commit just the same, which is what I would have done in her shoes.

I'm like 99.9% that I voiced on opinion on Matt in 78. I read the situation totally different then you. In 79 it does look a heckva lot like Milk is try to get me to vote Matt when I already said that I wasn't interested in lynching Matt today. I feel like she was not trying to get me to "commit to an opinion" but trying to get me to move my vote off of Selk. Considering that you have a scum read on Selk, do you not find it just a little strange that she doing this? Or do you think it was a whole coinkydink and its less likely they are scumbudz?

^^ More pushing of associations.

Why do you think milk and selk are grouped together? I find that unlikely, though not impossible.

I think they're both independently scummy and since I know we don't have two scum teams and its not confirmed if we have an sk or not so it does make me want to put them together. I mean the whole "Nero votes Selk, Milk tried to get Nero to unvote Selk" seems a lil' weird but maybe you're right and its just a big coincidence.

Swords, I initially liked your reason because it was the most detailed on of those on the Milkshake wagon and I had glazed through it. there are nearly 2 pages of between those two posts you have stated and a few people have made good points on you as well, which caused me to reconsider. That, and I had taken a closer look at that post and realized it wasn't as good as I had originally thought

This *might* be a link between SOO and Miss Des. Sure, as the pressure on SOO heated up she kinda backtracked to distance herself. But I'd be tempted to kill this when/if SOO flips scum.

^^ and more.

Maybe this stood out to me because in most instances he was trying to link us to other players. I'd go so far as to say trying to plant the idea of linkages.

Orcinus and Milkshake both pushed him about his vote on Selkies/us because he'd earlier said he wasn't interested in our lynch and it was an rvs vote.

I'm trying to look at this from the perspective of Nero Cain being town, and I could see him getting stubborn about the vote and suspicious when questioned about it, though I think he hung onto it for a pretty long time.

Rereading his ISO with that possibility in mind, I am seeing less to dislike in his posts, though the above posts still kinda bug me. I'm going to retract my statement that he'd be my preferred lynch if I had my druthers, and put him back in my null pile for now.

- f

[Selkies]

Ms Marangal it doesn't strike you at all odd that a PR would half-claim at L-3?

- f

[Selkies]

It's a reference to another game. Explaining how the two relate is hard, though I think Ffery will know what I'm talking about since we were both in that game

no I don't know what you are talking about. The pgo claim was made during rvs, not under even mild lynch pressure.

There are a lot of possible scenarios here, though, if that's what you mean.

- f

[Selkies]

SoO's looking more townish to me. and MsM's losing some of that town shine.

sigh.

- f

[Selkies]

UNVOTE: ThAdmiral

Will have to reread some, but I don't think MsM and ThAdmiral are scum buddies. One of them could be scum.

That whole thing MsM brought up about the fake pgo claim by a macho innocent child and comparing it to this situation was a huge reach.

Something odd going on here.

- f

[Selkies]

Nero, I started a post about milk earlier today but had to leave the keyboard for a while and when I came back to it, I decided that I was being assholish. Nearly every one of Milk's posts makes me long for browser-breaking facepalm images. I read those posts as either terrible town or town from such a different mafia culture that I just don't get it. Reminds me of some players on a site where the mafia games have a distinct drunken renfaire feel.

You on the other hand, I get a narrative control vibe that usually strikes me as scummy in other players' games until/unless I learn that they do it as town. Your pushing connections was part of that vibe. I've basically read you as scum by default due to that aspect of your play.

Anyway, I've done a hard reset on you, and I'll see where my read goes from here.

Are you still liking the SoO wagon? I'm really not feeling it, and I feel like of the two, MsM has looked worse over the last couple of pages worth of their back and forth.

[Selkies]

By the way, this is off topic, but I do want to hear why Selkies thinks my playstyle is bad. I'm calling for the use of basic town strategy and logic and also for ignoring pointless namecalling in favor of reads that actually get to someone's alignment.

In a game, there are things that town players should think about, and that should motivate their behaviors - what they do and say, but that they usually don't say out loud. You seem to lack that filter.

Ask me again postgame and we can talk about it in more detail if you wish.

- f

[Selkies]

38 hours should be plenty provided people are here to discuss and interact.

Most of the games I've played had 12-24 hour days from daybreak to nightfall. It's a lot of time if people use it well.

So, my recent read changes,

Nero Cain --> moved townward
Ms Marangal --> moved scumward, but this flavor stuff and throwing it into the read reasons...need to think about that.
SoO --> moved townward
ThAdmiral --> moved townward

This sucks because all the people I was willing to think about lynching have moved townward. Back to the isos.

[Selkies]

Amrun

181
This is a ton of first impressions on players. It should make trajectory analysis easy.
From this post:
Selkies - uber scummy
Nero - mixed, vouches for his meta.
Milk - townish
Ghostlin - waffles (I would call it hedging)
She omments that if milk is town, then Ghostlin is probably scum
makes a correcting comment about beli's post. this could be associative.

182
votes Ghostlin, though the case is less objective and weaker than the one on us.

184
Questions nero about "town read" on us.

187
More to Nero, about his associative theory re MattP and us.

190, 194, 199
exchange with Ghostlin. No real push/build regarding the Ghostlin vote so far nor any bandwagon building effort.

233
Pushes back at Nero over the milk/selk association

227, 228
more convo with Ghostlin. No sense here yet that she's talking to someone in her scumpile, much less voting.

230, 232
asks Ghostlin to summarize opinion of us, brushes me off when I challenge her for not engaging me directly.

231, 335
part of a back and forth with orcinus-selkies, engages with GCBC, and opines a little about Ghostlin. Seems to soften a little bit on the Ghostlin scum read.

354
not liking this dismissal of my comment now that I look at it again. it's as though nothing in the game should weigh on my ongoing impression/read formation of her since I liked her second post.

369
Milk's read is now scum. Didn't see much build-up to this in the previous posts. Also want to note that the Selkies read went more and more in the scum direction, while the vote sat on Ghostlin since early in the game. Think's Ghostlin is talking about/treating milk as though he's town while calling him scum.

375
Now going after Ghostlin over his FoS of SoO.

388, 391, 392, etc.
THE GREAT MISUNDERSTANDING.
This convo comes off as town totally missing the point. The depth and subtlety required for this to be a scum performance leaves me dumbfounded. If Amrun is scum I don't ever want to play with her again because I am not worthy.

409
whoo! votes Selkies. No question we were scum runner up since early in the game.

441
votes ThAdmiral. Apparently a pressure vote. No reason advanced for my no longer being uberscum.

539
ThAdmiral Jester. No real effort to push him. No questions, etc. Compared to the engagement with Ghostlin, the level of engagement with ThAdmiral and me is extremely lacking. Chalk up to Balto meet?

582
Final post, SoO is uber town, and ThAdmiral should be lynched.
Overall there is good trajectory on positions and changes. Reads mostly seem subtle and nuanced. The irritability over the vote on me and the change to ThAdmiral look at first like annoyance that the case on Ghostlin collapsed and then like no time for the game. But, this is something to look for in future days, I think. it would be exhausting as scum to keep up the usually excellent level of nuance in reads and cases on people.

[Selkies]

One thing about Amrun's posts, and I'm not sure it's a big deal. Compared to some players, Amrun mostly steered clear of discussion about MattP's vt claim.

[Selkies]

Beliasaurus

203
First reads list. Looks like one scum read. Was Selkies. nobody loves us.

256, 278, 295 300...
gets into a discussion about MattP's vt claim. doesn't look like he really cares for the discussion.
stays out of the milkwagon stuff.

307
Votes Ghostlin. not a lot of trajectory to this vote.

311
more mattp stuff.

313
asks GCBC if a Selkies vote is out of the question. Seems like an odd post.

434
votes ThAdmiral because convo stopping.

440
explains vote

462
calls his wagon horseshit.

523
another good post when a self-preserving vote option is dangled by ThAdmiral

563
more vote explanation, offers self as lynch candidate if ThAdmiral flips town.

646
dreamwalker flavor stuff.

Trajectories are interesting. subtle telegraphing > vote > wtf is this reactions from other players > cogent and townish explanations. Attitude toward self preservation reads as fearless town.

Leaning town.

[Selkies]

18, 19
random votes us. then moves to matt "better vote". wtf? random...
from there an exchange with Matt "I think you are scum." works around to the idea that Matt is trying to get a read on Ghostlin.

35
revotes us. vote hopping is weird. did we look like an easy target or something?
^^ all this seemed town to me in real time, though. don't want to lose sight of that.

94
is weird. maybe it just wasn't obvious due to not signing posts enough. orcinus did the voting and a lot of the arguing during the rvs period of our first rvs game. I was mostly townhunting and defending a leaning-town read from orcinus' bloodyminded intent to get him lynched.
reason for not voting us? where's the reason to vote milkshake? or was it just that obvious at that point in the game?

156
catches an inconsistency.

159
another unsupported vote. no followup.

262
this post looks townish.

302
"methinks" this word always makes me think scum. :/

340, 341
good pushback to Miss Destroyer.

344
compared to his prior posts this has a passive feel to it.

346
pushes beli

348
reaching out for info. often townish. not always.

356
posts start to get longer and more thoughtful looking.

460
like this response to MsM.
from here lots of back and forth between them. he holds his own.

598
changes his vote to ThAdmiral.

I thought this iso might reveal a scum pov after MsM pushing him as a wagon. I am not seeing it.

[Selkies]

Not isoing ghostlin because he's town to me.

Not isoing Nero Cain again because I did it yesterday and it changed my read.

p-edit. I'm thinking similarly SoO.

[Selkies]

GCBC

131
I liked the effort into this analysis of the milkwagon. thought it looked townish.
There are a bunch more analytical posts taking apart Amrum's early arguments with Ghostlin and the pre-rvs joke case on us. wtf someone doesn't start the game hating selkies. That's probably a scum tell in this game.

514
reports on milk's meta and the difference in amount of theory discussion in scum games/this game. The level of effort to dig this up strikes me as town.

533
tears milkshake apart for being followy about jumping away from beliasaurus.

589, 591
Pushback at me for changing vote, and questioning me about my nero read, which resulted in an iso analysis that changed my read.

612
the only thing I don't like about GCBC is the vote and interest in gettng SoO lynched. nearly everything else I either agree with or didn't even notice until they pointed it up. I'm going to cry if they are scum.

[Selkies]

iecerint

Iecerint has hardly made an impression on me in terms of effect on the gamescape. But, there are substantive posts in his iso.
curious.

173
milk's posts aren't organic. thinks SoO looks more scummy but no explanation why.

176
reply to ghostlin. distancing from milkwagon?

284
now he votes SoO. Still no reason why SoO looks scummy.

363
calls out SoO to make catch-up posts. Easy way to throw attention without building any sort of case.

382
the case. "The reason I am voting you is that I was sympathetic-but-not-sold on milkwagon, I thought your votepost was probably most questionable-y given milkTown, and I wanted you to post more." with a link to 176.

511
perhaps the mildest call out of all time. He reposts it later.

605
Asks MsM about the PGO Macho Innocent Child comparison to ThAd's soft claim.

Trajectory sucks. vote explanation all but nonexistant. passive aggressive follow-ups. very low post count. Aside from "Milk and Ghostlin look better" I have no idea what this vote was about.

I could vote Iecerint.

[Selkies]

I'll try to read a couple of his games. To me those posts scream noncommital and distant.

[Selkies]

Let's just put it this way... he may be scum, but his posting style is not an indication of this (ie noncommittal and distant).

What would be indicative of his scum game?

[Selkies]

Selkes! Explain. Also Explain why you went through ISO's and left out SOO when you made a post mentioning players you weren't going to ISO but didn't mention him.

I have more isos to do and some will wait for tomorrow. I'm going alphabetically but have skimmed a couple of isos and thought "yeah, town I think..." I won't be posting a MattP iso analysis for that reason.

Milk and Miss Destroyer/Ms Marangal will take some time and I hope to finish at least one of them bfore I hit the sack...but it's almost 11 pm my time.

Do you have any thoughts about Iecerent? Any prior game experience?

[Selkies]

GCBC re SoO's activity level and periods with no posts, here is a recent Micro game he and I played together. http://www.forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi ... er_sort=Go (link to his iso).

His first large post in that game was so big that he split it in two. There were some long gaps between his lengthier posts, and some periods when he went a while with no posts at all due to real world stuff. He was town.

[Selkies]

looks like the link's broken. here's a link to the thread - http://www.forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi ... 83&t=28260

[Selkies]

Milk

Initial posts read as awkward, which was why I thought "scum" at first and why we voted for milk.
130
seemed from a town perspective to both me and orcinus. orcinus moved our vote to Nero right after that post.
132, 136
disagrees thata SoO's vote looked most scummy of the 6.
172
gut explanation is a bit of a window into milk's play style - "information" is narrowly defined. Might be why milk digs (too hard IMO) for something more concrete than analyzing walls.
257

I think 3/4 of these people are scum: Ghostlin, Selkies, GoodCop_BadCop, MattP.

But yeah, well, that just like, uh, my opinion, man.

seemed like a truly bizarre list to expect to find 3 scum at the time it was posted. And hasn't aged well.
373
Matt has been dropped from the scum list because Milk doesn't think there's enough support. Associative speculation. Telegraph's vote change.
435
scum list has changed:
gcbc still scum, joined by ThAdmiral, and Beliasaurus. Matt, Ghostlin and Selkies now all town.
Given the amount of telegraphing earlier, this trajectory is a little odd.
449
followy vote on Beliasaurus (mentiones another person's case)
465
scum team found!
476
pushes beliasaurus lynch.
517
self absorption. GCBC is scum because trying to drum up interest in a milk vote is scummy. terrible logic.
525
jumps off Beli wagon right after I do. Next post indicates uncertainty about other scum reads.
546
Now GCBC looks town. Gives reason (mild hydra disagreement) because earlier opinion change with no reason criticized.
552
logic for voting ThAdmiral - most likely town or 3rd party. vote them anyway.
594
New reads list. Scum are now ThAdmiiral and Ms. Marangal. No reasons given.
601
Now thinking ThAdmiral could be town
607
Comes off as genuine irritation with MsM about whether to push ThAdmiral for a full claim.
684
Compromise vote on MsM? Appears to prefer ThAd.

The reads changeability is a town characteristic imo, and not an easy one to duplicate as scum.

oops

[Selkies]

One curious thing...milk has hardly interacted with or mentioined Amrun at all.

[Selkies]

orcinus here I'm back and talking with fery

GTFO, you know I'm a better scum-player than that

Hm.

[Selkies]

Hi orcinus here I think Marangal is scum for several reasons. I'm still talking to fery about it and she's running an ISO right now but just really quickly:

Why did you not press me on 315 considering I never replied to that point and you asked me twice?

Wait...

Dream-walker...

now I'm even more confused on the thing between you and Ghost, the two of you are walkers and I'm pretty sure all the walkers are town, so what were you trying to say swords?

This seems like scum feining ignorance.
God this Ad defense is badddddddd
Marangal has a really freaking weird interaction with SOO

[Selkies]

I guess if no one counterclaims Ms Marangal's Nynaeve, then there's a reasonable chance she's town.

how exactly is it that you know scum don't have safeclaims

[Selkies]

I forgot about that possibility.

okay good because i personally find her claim scummy

[Selkies]

Miss D/MsM

233
called out on trajectory by SoO. self-metas instead of explaining why the read change.
237
catches it. comes down to "other people calling you out" and "post wasn't as good as I thought" with no explanation of why.
319
votes demon "seemingly opportunistic hops". phrasing here is kinda passive for a vote post. also, totally had a different opinion of demon at this point in the game.
452
defensive tone throughout
525
case on demon. "opportunistic".
554
More demon interaction.
562
Interaction with me. I challenged her to take a stand on Milk. Got back "I don't even know"...scum.
578
prefers Omens to Milk, but doesn't vote yet. Soft Bus?
599
beginning of reasoning to not vote ThAd
602
votes...MILK?
604
brings up poetic justice game's fake PGO claim to explain reluctannce to vote ThAd. really strange post.
616
defensive posture, self meta, etc.
631
clangs.
658
reads list - scum are milkshake, demon. i don't even

From here, name claim, Milkshake vote, and defense. What is the vote count? premature claim?

Yeah, this looks bad and I could vote MsM today. Will discuss with orcinus.

[Selkies]

Me too, especially now that you mentioned that. It seems like the kind of thing that might be a scum safeclaim.

confirm vote: Ms Marangal

k this is a weird vote

[Selkies]

that's okay though i think your playstyle is generally weird and you're still town

we are now going to VOTE: marangal

[Selkies]

^^ IAWTP

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

Also, iece needs more scrutiny and fery is concerned about that slot

[Selkies]

SoO

First post of game, vote on Milkshake with detailed reasoning, puts wagon to L-1. Seems like an excessively ballsy way to start the game if scum.

380
good pushback, also...a comment that this isn't Iecerent's town game. Did not notice this originally because Iecerent wasn't on my radar.

SoO, please elaborate.

383
ah. alert status down on Iecerent. still...would like to know more about his town game.

482
Reads list makes sense to me given his posts prior to this. He has MsM and ThAd as scum. The only thing I would question is that his town read on GCBC seems predicated on Ghostlin being scum. I wouldn't make that a centerpiece, myself.

547
I can see where he is coming from in this post re his suspicions on Ghostlin. I disagree, though.

614
MsM case and vote. Trajectory was established prior.

635
The first sentence pretty much follows my thoughts when I read that post by MsM.
His later posts, he's still poking at stuff by other players for more clarity and detail.

@GCBC, I cannot see what it is in SoO's posts that you find so scummy. I think you're barking up the wrong trees in both your top reads. :/

[Selkies]

Current reads

orcinus and I have not done a complete synch - we've focused on scum reads. Where I think I know his current read, I will mention it.

Leaning Town

(semi random order)

milkshake - both of us
Amrun - both of us (read more shaky than a few days ago. would like to see an answer to Nero's question)
GCBC
Ghostlin - both of us
Demon - both of us
SoO - maybe just me on this one

Null

MattP - I am leaning more town. orcinus would consider a policy lynch
Beliasaurus - I think orcinus may have him in or near his scumpile, but reading his iso had me thinking about putting him in my town pile.
Nero Cain - orcinus has him in or near his scum pile based on him continuing to harp on old posts without either building more of a case or dropping stuff if his read's evolved.
ThAdmiral - I'm at null-maybe-town. Orcinus has him scummy enough for a compromise lynch vote.

Scum

MsMarangal - both of us
Iecerent - both of us

[Selkies]

Not going to do a ThAd iso report. I'm done posting walls for now.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

Will bring this up with orcinus as soon as he's online. Our vote stays where it is in the meantime because I'm skeptical as fuck about this role claim.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

Also, iece needs more scrutiny and fery is concerned about that slot

Then why are you telling us to scrutinise him instead of doing so yourself?

because we could be dead on day 2. I'm doing some meta dives now, but there are players here who have experiential meta and that is likely to be far more useful than what I can dig up in old threads.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

Not going to do a ThAd iso report. I'm done posting walls for now.

- fferyllt

I like your walls. They are smart and townish, and smart, townish people should agree with them.

you blew right past MsM's repeated posts directed toward you to reply to this with something that doesn't advance the game.

Not advancing the game in every post isn't a huge deal. but, doing so while ignoring posts directed at you kinda is a deal.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

I'm stealing my vote back

Now that orcinus is back and I have someone to confab with, I'm taking advantage of it.

[Selkies]

And since I see you're here, would you mind explaining your own findings as you said you would?

my findings about the game you linked? I don't remember saying I'd report back, but I probably should have.

My thoughts were that there was a humor to Milk's posts in that game that is kinda missing here. And, there was a way slower rate of posting, though that could be due to Milk almost immediately getting a bandwagon and quickly reaching L-1 here. Milk has been a bit on the back foot ever since.

I got kinda hung up on one of the posts where Milk said something about people posting statistically a little more as scum than as town. I don't know who said that or what their sample was. My own non-statistically-valid observations suggest otherwise, though IME good players don't do lurky stuff when they are scum.

I also thought that 2009 is not really all that recent.

I looked back over the thread to be sure I wasn't forgetting something, and you know what jumped out at me? Iecerint also played that game and was town. Pretty sure that Milk didn't volunteer that when I asked if any players had game experience with Iecerint.

Milk's recent posts are having a negative impact on my read. Depending on how orcinus feels about MsM's claim, we may post intent to hammer in a bit.

[Selkies]

Sorry about hydra slipping, I can't log onto Selk right now so fery will have to quote this for me

Marangal is scum as all shit.

1). Doc claim--m has meta of fake claiming PRs like in hard boiled so no towncred for that
2). Calling milk sucking up to us is weak as all shit. I mean. What? No. He liked Fery's ISO. He stated that. That is not anti town behavior at all. What the fuck do you mean that's scum?

I don't want to lynch milk, and will ONLY if Marangal doesn't build.

WHY WOULD DOC CLAIM WHEN SHE IS NOT ANYWHERE NEAR A LYNCH

PEOPLE

ARE YOU BLIND

MARANGAL GOES RIGHT FUCKING NOW

quoting for orcinus.

[Selkies]

L-3 IS NOT WHERE DOCTORS CLAIM

NO IT IS NOT

I will shout at everyone until you see how scum Marangal is

And if we lynch milk today everyone is going to promise me Marangal is lynched to death.

- f

[Selkies]

so...to put that in fery-speak we still want to lynch Ms Marangal today and won't change our vote unless the clock ticks down and it's the only way to prevent nolynch.

Intent to hammer on Monday, June 3rd at 12:55 PM US Eastern Time.

My last 2 hammers came 3-4 minutes before deadline. I don't care if nightfall is 3 am my time, I wake up and grit my teeth and shout profanities until there's no other choice and no time left.

If Milk gets hammered before absolutely necessary and flips town I will never let you live it down.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

Not going to do a ThAd iso report. I'm done posting walls for now.

- fferyllt

I like your walls. They are smart and townish, and smart, townish people should agree with them.

The Fuck? This is blatant suck up, town have little to no reason to do this. Playful Jabs now and then are fine, but he is actively trying to keep himself from looking bad in your eyes.

and Believe my claim or not, but it's true. He is also the only one of the three contesting wagons who brings up that a No lynch could be a plausibly good Idea, maybe because he starting to realize that he can't really get the other wagons to take off because they all claimed PR to some extent and he can't?

This is a TERRIBLE POST I mean it's a good post for us exhaust Marangal just claimed scum. Just. Look at it.

Agreeing with walls is suck up. Why? Oh right, town players need to trust each other as little as possible

The last sentence is bad. Claiming or softing a PR does NOT defuse the wagon on you.

Sorry M. Not today.

looool that was terrible.

Sorry Cephrir!

[Selkies]

oh wait...the deadline has changed.

Intent to hammer at 8:55 PM US Eastern Time. I assume that's actually Eastern Daylight time, though, not Standard.

Psh, like I know which of those is which. Yeah, the one that it actually is.

- fferyllt

[Selkies]

Ok.

Not voting Milk today. Orcinus and I will talk about other options when we're both online.

- f

[Selkies]

but we won't NEED other options if some of you agree with us that MsM is scum.

- f

[Selkies]

[quote="In post 737, Ms Marangal"]also, why are Thad and I the only ones who are getting shit for pre-mature claiming

when Demon has done the exact same thing?[/

quote]

What?

[Selkies]

jesus christ this game.

UNVOTE: MsM

Orcinus and I need to talk.

I'm starting to think some of these gazillion PR claims are not entirely alignment indicative.

[Selkies]

jesus christ this game.

UNVOTE: MsM

Orcinus and I need to talk.

I'm starting to think some of these gazillion PR claims are not entirely alignment indicative.

Yes me too

I'm home in 40 minutes, can we talk then?

I don't think channeler is town indicative. Ghostlin was that other thing.

[Selkies]

I'll try to stay awake.

- f

[Selkies]

My claim is legit and I'll do a full one if I have to but god

why aren't you doing a full one?

(been talking to fery for 20 minutes now we're getting somewhere)

[Selkies]

VOTE: ThAd

[Selkies]

Hi Marangal.

I might be wrong about you, and I'm having enough paranoia to let you slide today.

Milkshake is a fairly strong town read and he is not scum.

Please vote ThAd with us.

Love, orci.

[Selkies]

Not demon. not Ghost. Both are in our townpile.

We'd lynch from ThAd, iercerent today. maaaaybe beli - orcinus has him as scum, I have him null.

iercerent hasn't been online for a while which is my main hesitation. that plus worries that my scum read is a false positive.

- f

[Selkies]

ThAdmiral is my original scum read and his claim is even worse than Ms Marangal's. I would return my vote to him.

Given that thAd has 3 votes on him and that without your vote marangal also has 3, why aren't you switching your vote at this point in time?

-o

[Selkies]

Wow. You seirously contemplating a me/ghostlin lynch right now/? About a day before deadline with most people afk?

I love your lack of involvement.

-o

[Selkies]

not Thad

I really don't think ScumThad would be so stubborn RE Claiming, and I definitely think that, as scum, he would stop at just a soft claim. It's high risk, and has very little rewards

also, the Lack of will to survive just Screams town IMO

Do you both still have Demon as town?

and the fact that milk is so willing to jump onto the next biggest wagon is a huge Bother

Ghost could be a decent wagon to try and get up

This post mkes me feel very bad about you.

Survivalism should be a trait of all players, town or scum.

Why demon or ghost?

[Selkies]

Milk did character claim.

[Selkies]

^^ f

[Selkies]

My bad, I forgot that saying something positive is the biggest scum tell ever in this meta.

I'm Siuan Sanche.

I have passive ability pertaining to one power that affects my other abilities. But I don't have any other abilities.

Ms Marangal is scum, I am not.

^^ there

- f

[Selkies]

In the series do bad guys channel?

- f

[Selkies]

so both channeling and dream walking are alignment-ambiguous, then?

- f

[Selkies]

Either I missed an unvote or that was hammer.

~BC

I think you are right.

[Selkies]

Funny. Why do you say this? Milkshake and I have interacted quite a lot. I want this answered even if it must be answered tomorrow.

You are right. I think I had you confused with ThAd. But, I'm not sure. I'm short on sleep two days running.

[Selkies]

What Nero said.

[Selkies]

Although I'm not sure how lynching you would associate us.

It wouldn't -- but if

you

flipped scum, anyone who notices that word "backstab" would paint

me

as scum by association with you.

You've been pretty devil-may-care about appearances up until now.

[Selkies]

I have, though not super-often. It's mostly been people who also play mafia elsewhere.

- f

[Selkies]

iece is so fucking scum right now and i will never forgive him should he flip town

that fucking hammer

he is being lynched tomorrow no matter WHAT.

[Selkies]

Beijing time))

DUDE ME TOO

[Selkies]

Nero, orcinus had to run before he could explain. He had the same reaction to the kills. Amrun. Why? It doesn't make a dam bit of sense to me.

[Selkies]

I'm showing how painfully ignorant I am of the flavor, but my first thought was that Matt's killer might be a dragon Do the dragons in this series breathe fire?

- f

[Selkies]

I am phoneposting. having power outages in my area and pg&e doesn't know the cause. besides heat wave. will hopefully be resolved by tomorrow morning.

- f

[Selkies]

@Amrun How does ThAd's role make a doctor unlikely?

- f

[Selkies]

True if they are full commuters.

Marangal should fully claim now.

- f

[Selkies]

@Beli re "Town Vanilla", I've seen that phrasing show up in another game designed by a long-time MS member.

[Selkies]

Are you required to post in the QT if you dreamwalk?

- f

[Selkies]

ok...makes sense I guess. I can't find in Ghostlin's iso that he claimed his character name, so maybe it was a good guess that he'd be the one.

Now I get what orcinus was on about re Amrun, I think.

btw orcinus is on vacation atm. Assume any unsigned Selkies posts are me for now unless the writing style suggests otherwise.

- f

[Selkies]

Or maybe more than one dreamwalker went for it last night. I'd probably wait a night or two, myself.

- f

[Selkies]

Mara are you thinking that ThAd's description of how his role works matches a dream walker? I can't quite get all this info to synch up. ThAd's description sounds different to me from what you and Beli have said.

- f

[Selkies]

But then he's not really claiming dreamwalker.

And that makes sense if one of last night's drewamwalkers was scum. Claiming it would be suicide.

I probably won't vote until orcinus and I have a chance to synch up, but that's where I want our vote to go.

- f

[Selkies]

Where did you get the impression that he was hinting that he was a PR then?

...are you serious?

and Ffery, IDK. The name doesn't make sense to me, though it as a fake claim doesn't make a whole lot of sense since it sticks out like a sore thumb. Nothing adds up, though what's really worrying me is the fact that Demon hasn't posted anything today thus far. He was fairly active yesterday and he hasn't been around yet

I have no idea what it is about Demon's posts that sounded an alarm for you.

- f

[Selkies]

So saying he's a town pr isn't enough to think he's soft claiming?

He didn't say he was a PR, he just bolded the words while addressing Matt. I don't see how bolding those words = a PR claim in the slightest

It's a more eloquent breadcrumb than some I've seen. orcinus certainly saw it.

- f

[Selkies]

hi

been talking with fery

marangal, if you're a dreamwalker, how the hell did you not catch ghostlin's ridiculously overt crumbs

[Selkies]

Selk is my 2nd biggest scum read. Today FFery hasn't seemed like her normal aggressive self and ORC posted on this site 30 times while he was on "vacation" so this thread avoidance is really bothering me.

I've in data acquistion mode. There is a lot coming to light today. While Orc is on vacation I'll be mostly the one posting in this game. His solo games he'll have to manage on his own.

Now that Orcinus and I have touched bases, I can proceed with something.

We received an object last night. I have reason to think that someone sent it to us rather than it being a game mechanics thing. Anyone want to step up and claim this?

- f

[Selkies]

@Ms Marangal I am seriously having trouble with your suspicion of Ghostlin yesterday. You said that you thought the dreamwalkers were town. You claim to be one. He breadcrumbed bolded words like dream in a series of posts and you still had him as scum in your reads list.

It's not adding up to me.

- f

[Selkies]

mod constructed fake claim makes more sense than that IMO. I know they are not universal at MS, but I have seen some.

[Selkies]

But, I have doubts about Ms Marangal, mostly due to her scum-Ghostlin read on day 1.

[Selkies]

Whatever else comes out of this discussion, my read on Beli is pretty firmly town now.

- f

[Selkies]

Can we finally agree that it's plausible for my read on Mara to be genuine? Because I can't defend my read on her without defending her, and I'm decidedly averse to doing another player's job for them.

I believe your read is genuine. I have doubts about her and so does Orcinus. It has to do with the apparent contradictions in her claim and her claimed beliefs about the dreamwalkers, and her read on Ghostlin.

- f

[Selkies]

I believe your read is genuine.

Good; I'm not willing to vote Mara today, bur I'm willing to entertain the idea of scumMara at LyLo if not before. We good?

Probably. I think Orcinus will be ok with letting this lie for today.

- f

[Selkies]

I think so. You're interacting with me which to me means you're at least trying to get a read.

- f

[Selkies]

I think so.

You're interacting with me which to me means you're at least trying to get a read.

In what universe does "trying to get a read" equate to townreading?

Please answer the question I actually asked.

I said I think so. I don't think would have tried to negotiate keeping Mara alive today with someone you think is scum.

- f

[Selkies]

Why did you ask if I/we think you are townreading this slot?

[Selkies]

Probably. I think Orcinus will be ok with letting this lie for today.

Query to both heads: do you think I'm townreading you?

I don't really pay attention.

[Selkies]

I KNOW THIS....
what i'm saying is that BELI DOESN'T BELlEVE THIS...
so his logic isn't making sense...
Matt is a Major character...he was one of the 3 main characters that the Forsaken actively hunted after to try and kill...
If scum do not get fake claims (according to Beli) then why would they chance an early Matt fake-claim?
They wouldn't...

Sword, you know that it's not true that all themed games have pre-defined fake claims for scum. MOST, yes.

But you, Beli and I (fferyllt) played DragonballZ together very recently and the scum team did NOT get fake claims in that game.

glossing over that fact looks kinda hinky.

- f

[Selkies]

@ Selkies - i KNOW that..what i'm saying is look at it from Beli's point of view..not mine...not yours...HIS logic doesn't make sense...
He has shown that he knows the flavor pretty well...He thinks that scum do not get fake claims...so why would scum Fakeclaim a huuuuge main character this early in the game? One that most likely would be in the game? From his point of view it should be a extremely ballsy gamble, yet he doesn't bat an eye...Whether the Mod gives' fakeclaims or not isn't the point here...its WHY Beli thinks it's fake...

Ok.

My familiarity with the flavor begins and ends with wikipedia. I can't really judge the merits of arguments about how central a particular character is.

On other sites where I have played, although the mod may not craft full safe-claim role descriptions for scum, they do often provide some character names and leave it to the scum to work out the details of a claim. Does that sort of partial claim help happen at MS?

[Selkies]

Orcinus has been windsurfing. We haven't talked since this morning.

All of these claims are confusing as hell to sort out. It seems like there are holes of one sort or another with each MsM's,ThAd's and Beli's.

Of the three, Beli come off the most genuine to me. Don't know how Orcinus feels overall but he doesn't want to lynch MsM today.

Amrun is setting off some alarms for both of us.

Orcinus thinks Icea is really vague, but is undecided if it's scummy-vague.

[Selkies]

So what has Orc been saying in the hydra?

Nothing. Sorry. Working now.

[Selkies]

Does anyone else think demon is scum? Opinions pls.

We do not.

- f

[Selkies]

BC what are your current thoughts about Iece?

- f

[Selkies]

Nero, it kinda makes me sad, but orcinus and I both have town reads on you now. Orcinus would call his a strong town read I think.

Amrun is bothering us both.

My feeling is that there is something off about all the PR claims but I'm thinking that could be an artifact of game design rather than all of the players, themselves.

I maybe agree with half your scum list. And I'd add iece to it

- f