Mini 1451: A Memory of Light (Game Over)

[ThAdmiral]

That's probably because he organized the scum roles before the town ones.

Scumteam found.

[ThAdmiral]

So you found Matt antitown and found the reasoning of my vote on you to be illegitimate and you still just waltz around in this game chilling in the RVS.

@ Matt: Ill ask another question on ghostlins behalf - did you expect no one to question you?

[ThAdmiral]

Um, must have accuseddentakky quoted demon there...

Ill repost the question.

@ Matt: did you expect no one to question you?

[ThAdmiral]

*accuseddentakky=accidentally. Yeah, I'm on my phone.

I tend to agree with ghostlin - it strikes me as disingenuous when people do something for a reaction and then act surprised when they get a reaction.

[ThAdmiral]

All things considered, though, Matt is probably town.

(4 posts in a row!)

[ThAdmiral]

Nah, ghostlin looks more likely town if anything from his posts.

[ThAdmiral]

Like you did?

[ThAdmiral]

@Thad

Why is Ghost town?

I find ghost town because a) his thoughts were running along the same line as mine - stands to reason that he is therefore also coming from a town perspective, b) even though he was arguing with matt he was still able to logically figure he was town - I would suspect scum would rather try and twist things to make matt seem scum.

@ nero: why the fuck would you change your avatar? It used to be amazing.



Um can we not abandon the milkshake wagon? Yes scum are probably on there, but that is because they are bussing at this stage. Look past your fear of how fast it formed, this one's good.

vote: milkshake

[ThAdmiral]

Thad, why are you convinced that Milk-shakes is scum?

He has shown no pro-town behaviour. He has shown anti-town behaviour.
His thinking comes from scum mindset. Lynch.

what exactly are you seeing in Ghost's words?

Is this to me as well? I don't really get what you're asking, but I think I cover this in 149.

@ nero: why the fuck would you change your avatar? It used to be amazing.

you don't like it man?

It's more that I really liked the other one. Yeah, this one is...

fine

.

[ThAdmiral]

Not only do milkshake's manipulative posts regarding Matt scream scum, his reasoning behind voting ghostlin are both terrible and hypocritical (particularly in post 136).

If he's not lynched today I'm going to be very disappointed.

[ThAdmiral]

I should have wanted a Matt P lynch 'cause I mentioned that he fake claims as both alignments?

Technically, you should have wanted a MattP lynch because he claims early as town and fakeclaims early as scum. This was under the assumption of "Never lie as town" being universally accepted strategy here. Which apparently it might not be?

So why you didn't vote Matt?

This here ^

This is the crux of the issue.

[ThAdmiral]

I'll chime in and agree that selk does look bad. Restrospectively her behaviour around the milkshake wagon makes little sense:
- selk jumps on in 97 providing little reasoning (the only clue we get is "milkshake's entrance was a little unsettling" from a previous post)
- questions nero on who is scum if milkshake flips town (106). This is odd because, being on the milkshake wagon, they should think that milkshake is indeed scum. Furthermore it indicates that they are more interested in engaging with nero than milkshake. In fact they don't address milkshake at all the entire time they are voting for them, which also strikes me as odd.
- They state in 115, regarding nero: "we don't view you to be our #1 suspect", and regarding milkshake: "I personally think milkshake's wagon is probably town-driven". Furthermore in 125: "milkshake's page 4 posts ping pretty hard". So it seems they are pretty happy with the milkshake wagon.
- suddenly in 133: "So fery and I are mostly satisfied with the last two posts. Milkshake can be town for now", and they change their vote to nero.

They had been toying with voting nero, so the switch to him isn't that odd, but their behaviour towards milkshake certainly was - essentially whilst they never stated clearly why they thought milk was scum they continued to vote them, but never actually interacted with milkshake. They could be milkshake's partners, but that almost seems too obvious to be true.

I am tempted to vote tbh.

[ThAdmiral]

BTW, I would appreciate it if you'd use an avatar. It will help me to keep track of your posts.

I'll second this, and also request it to be some kind of sweet demon.

Cheers

[ThAdmiral]

Town, consider this: the question is a poisonous confirmation question. Beli and Milkshake are OK with both outcomes leading to a Matt P lynch--even when we've talked about the fact that the gambit doesn't prove to hurt anyone at this juncture of the game.

I think you're taking your concern too far. Matt isn't going to be lynched today whether he answers the question or not, or whichever way he answers the question. I think most reasonable people here have figured that matt thinks that lying as town is ok as long as there is a purpose.

[ThAdmiral]

Why does sword of omens have 3 votes on him?

[ThAdmiral]

Ghostlike, once again, I am not trying to convince you that you are scum. Let's be clear here, though; this is far from the only reason I said I suspected you. It's simply the only reason you chose to address because it was easiest to take pot shots at. It's also not at all about the "meaning" of any phrases. It's about your choice of words and mindset, and trying to play both sides of the field.

Short of a cop or similar, no one can have "proof" that someone else is scum. Everything is subjective, and everyone uses personal tells because that's what the entire game is about.

I think the very act of saying that sword of omens is scum no matter of milkshake's alignment is scummy, especially given soo's relative level of content. I think HOW you did this, and the words you used, are even scummier.

And your response now is scummier still. Trying to reduce my argument into a strawman and object to it on grounds that "it's subjective" and "it uses personal tells" is the same thing you did with milkshake by saying "it's just my word vs. yours!"

Of course it is. None of those thinks actually invalidate anyone's arguments and I think you're smart enough to know that.

This case is not convincing at all. You've been going on about this for pages. Stop clogging up the game thread.

Hah, Sword of Omens is at L-4, I wonder if he will claim. xD

Can we please kill him?

[ThAdmiral]

vote: amrum

my god do you ever shut up?

[ThAdmiral]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ThAdmiral

What's wrong with talking a lot?

Me having to read it.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm leaving my vote where it is. I want to see if anyone else votes me.

[ThAdmiral]

Thad your vote is boring as hell, since a majority is townreading amrun you're not going to go anywhere unless you actually attach something substantial.

Thanks for the advice.

VOTE: Belisarius

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ThAdmiral

What's wrong with talking a lot?

Anyone else getting bussing vibes from this?

Why not just vote me then?

[ThAdmiral]

how do I only have 2 votes on me? I'm being scummy as fuck?

anyway

unvote

I still don't get the soo wagon. If it's a choice between him and beli I'm voting beli.
Is there any chance of getting the milk wagon going again? Can't for the life of me understand how people are townreading him.
Selkies is probably town though.

vote: milkshake

anyone else?

[ThAdmiral]

fine by me you if you want to be a little shit about it...

you ain't town cause if you were and you read your shit you'd know what you did..


walker my ass...

confirm vote: Ghost

I'm a better chance of being lynched to be fair.

[ThAdmiral]

^^ what I mean by that is you should probably vote me instead. Or do you plan to shift to me if my wagon gets any bigger?

[ThAdmiral]

I'd be willing to get on sword of omens now tbh

[ThAdmiral]

That's three votes on milk now. This can still happen.

BELIEVE!

[ThAdmiral]

@ beli: it's pretty much you versus milk for top lynch spot now. You might as well jump on milk now, for self preservation reasons if nothing else.

[ThAdmiral]

(pssst. hey ghostlin. why don't you move your vote to him)

[ThAdmiral]

^^ what I mean by that is you should probably vote me instead. Or do you plan to shift to me if my wagon gets any bigger?

Shit like this makes me think ThAd might be a jester, but it's almost TOO obvious for jester... Even so he needs to go.

Go where, amrum?

[ThAdmiral]

Well I could defend myself, or I could just tell you that I'm a power role.

Yes, that is a soft claim, and no I won't be revealing any more than I have.

[ThAdmiral]

Just a note for everyone: I know that self-meta is useless and all... but to my knowledge I have never claimed a pr as scum before. I mean I probably have but I can't remember doing it. In any case it would be very rare if ever. I certainly have never soft-claimed pr as scum.

Ugh, I'm ever so slightly starting to suspect extremely obnoxious town for ThAdmiral, but come on.

Sadly it is true. I like to think I'm not that obnoxious normally, but I'm not playing very well in this game so I guess I'm settling for being a dickhead.

Keep talking MsM...looks like I might have been right about you after all…

Between the three main wagon, I don't think I can get on the Thad wagon. I don't understand the Premise behind that one at all, he hasn't done anything to standoutish to me

and I think I'm thinking the same thing he is RE Omens

Which is what exactly?

I still don't get the soo wagon. If it's a choice between him and beli I'm voting beli.
Is there any chance of getting the milk wagon going again? Can't for the life of me understand how people are townreading him

I'd be willing to get on sword of omens now tbh

Cause he doesn’t really say why…

While this may look incriminating taken out of context it is pretty clear in my second post that I was referring to the post directly above me, a post by ghostlin talking about how you were being wishy-washy. Here's a link to it.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm not going to fullclaim, so either lynch me or don't. Getting me to L-1 will be pointless.

[ThAdmiral]

I'll move my vote to soo if I have to but I'd still prefer milk lynch.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAd - do you have a 3rd party game of yours that you could link me to?

Check out my sig, bud.

[ThAdmiral]

ugh. THAD scum could easily be playing "chicken".

could be, but I'm not

[ThAdmiral]

Ok I might as well claim now - I am essentially a commuter, and I know that someone tried to target me last night and failed. Was hoping to draw a nightkill but scum maybe thought I was too likely to be lynched at some point and didn't want to waste their shot.

Haven't looked at how the flips affect my reads, so I guess I'll go do that.

[ThAdmiral]

On phone so I'll keep this brief.

@ mm: I'm not a dream walker or whatever. My role says if I am targeted by a one power ability it will fail.

@ everyone else: my exact role title is reflexive modified commuter. If you think I'm lying you are in for a surprise. There's actually more to the role as well!

[ThAdmiral]

Commuters haven't any way of telling if they've been targeted. What's the flavour name?

Matrim Cauthon. My commute power is "foxhead medallion". I was told it grew cold against my chest last night, which is how I know I was targeted by at least one one power ability. I'm sure the person who targeted me knows I am telling the truth.

@ThAd, that's convenient...
setting it up in your first post of the day, even...
let me guess...MsM doc'd you, right? Of course she did...

I don't know.

What i want to know is why you felt the need to share that part of it considering there were 2 kills last night?
why not just leave it at "i'm a commuter and i tried to draw the NK?" There's no real reason to bring up that last bit..especially with your first post...you know people are going to ask how you know you were targetted...
So why claim now?

I always planned on claiming first thing today. Other than anything else I thought it might help explain my play yesterday, and why I chose not to claim.

Even if both of those things were true, a commuter and a doctor won't be existing in the same small set up --

and as much as Thad's play had been totally baffling, it's been so baffling that I can believe he was just mangling a commuter role

.

Now you are thinking along the right lines.

Let’s talk Thad here, folks.

Buddies the hell out ghost day one.

Claims way frigging early, claiming generic power role.

Tries to justify why he wasn’t night killed!

Scumslip! Town never ever ever EVER does this.

wanna bet $5?
Anyway ghost was obv town, if no one else saw that it ain't my fault.

heheh...ThAd's not scum...

Good good.

I believe ThAd , but this makes a doctor extremely unlikely in this set up and I don't understand why more votes aren't there. Thad, how do you know you were targeted, because you lost your ability?

Answered above.

Why would my role get a flavour name, but ThAd's gets a generic name? It wouldn't.

Admiral Delenda Est, people.

Nope, Admiral prospera est.

He has concluded that I am the SK and that I should be

lunched

because of it

Mmmm, delicious amrun meat.

ThAd hasn't really done much so far, but what he's done has been background milkwagon cheerleading.

It's true I've basically been coasting this game. Tbh I've spread myself a little thin, but I should have enough time to be better from here on in.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd, I'm not impressed. That post lacks reads and doesn't comment on Marangal at all.

Yeah I'll get to reads. Haven't had a lot of time recently and I figured the important thing was to clear up any questions about my claim.
Marangal mainly was asking questions I had already answered. Is there anything else you wanted me to comment on more specifically about mm?

@ThAd: The foxhead would explain knowing you've been targeted, but there's nothing commuter-ish about Mat. He couldn't channel, so no Travelling, and he couldn't Dream, which is functionally equivalent to commuting + a splash of danger. Plus, the existence of the foxhead doesn't explain the role name of commuter -- My role name is One-Shot Dreamwalker but the ability is called In The Flesh (This is the only way that Gaul entered the Dream in AMoL) -- there would still be a flavoured role name in addition to the mention of the foxhead.

The foxhead medallion protects me, which is the "commuter" effect. I don't know why he chose to call me modified commuter and not something else like "self-protecting medallion guy", but that is between you and cephrir.

ThAd, though, claim your ability "name," because I have one as well.

I did. Foxhead medallion.

[ThAdmiral]

@Ms Marangal I am seriously having trouble with your suspicion of Ghostlin yesterday. You said that you thought the dreamwalkers were town. You claim to be one. He breadcrumbed bolded words like dream in a series of posts and you still had him as scum in your reads list.

It's not adding up to me.

- f

This is a good point, however I find it hard to see marangal as scum since she defended me so much yesterday. Don't really see the scum motivation for that.

The foxhead medallion passively renders the user immune to direct effects of the One Power in flavor

key words there being "passive" and "the One Power"; Commuters decide which nights to commute on, so it's not passive, and can be protected from the NK, and it's a real stretch to imagine the Power being the only way to kill in this game unless

everybody

can channel. Even if you don't believe

any

claims, MattP flipped Birgitte, who could not channel, so it is known that there are non-channellers in the game

So are you saying there are night actions that aren't "one power" night actions? If so, maybe I'm not as indestructible as I thought.

Horseshit. Horseshit, horseshit, horseshit! And for those of you who still don't know what I mean, it's the shit that comes from a horse.

There is no way I'll believe that. No way.

Mods do give scum full fake claims, if that's what you don't believe.

But the biggest issue I have is this. In 866 you say "there's more to the role as well" but then in 906 you say you planned on claiming first thing today. So which is it?

I never said I planned on full-claiming.
I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post btw - most if it was just "you're scum" "no I'm not" stuff anyway, so what's the point of keeping that going.

But you're freaking town as town town town for not knowing it. SOOOOO town.

So, dead tonight. I'm fine with that as long as my flip makes you lynch ThAd's lying ass

Question: why do you believe mara, but not me?

edit: basically what swords said.

I doubt ThAd's claim because commuter doesn't fit the setup, and I don't accept the stipulation that Mat would "definitely be in this game;" There are a lot of characters in WoT, and I drew a pretty minor character. There are enough major characters in the series for every player in the game to roll one if that's how the flavour was being done.

Yes, but Matrim is a very major player in the books...you think scum would chance that he's not in the game this early? Really?
Considering you don't think scum are given fake-claims, i don't see how you would think this...

Yep, loving swords right now, and looking forward to seeing beli's response.

[ThAdmiral]

ok I'm going to do a bit of wagon analysis. Feel free to draw your own conclusions from this. It will also be something to revisit as more people flip in the future.

Based off the mods posts here are any wagons that got up to at least 4 people:

milkshake

5 (

MattP

, Nero Cain,

Ghostlin

, Demon, Selkies)

milkshake

6 (

MattP

,

Ghostlin

, Demon, Selkies, sword_of_omens,

ThAdmiral

)

Belisarius 4 (Demon, Selkies,

milkshake

,

Ghostlin

)

sword_of_omens 4 (GoodCop_BadCop, Iecerint,

MattP

, Nero Cain)

ThAdmiral

5 (Belisarius, Amrun,

milkshake

, Selkies, Demon)

sword_of_omens 4 (Iecerint, Nero Cain,

Ghostlin

, GoodCop_BadCop)

Ms Marangal 4 (sword_of_omens, Demon,

milkshake

, Selkies)

milkshake

7 [Lynched!] (

ThAdmiral

,

MattP

, Ms Marangal,

Ghostlin

, Nero Cain, GoodCop_BadCop, Iecerint)

So just going off sheer numbers and probability (aka "the adel method") it is unlikely that any wagon that gets to 4 had no scum influence, and that goes doubly for any wagon that got to 5.
People who's names show up multiple times include:
nero - on the first milkshake wagon, also on the soo wagon and the final milkshake wagon.
Demon - on the early milkshake wagon, also on myself, belisarius and marangal.
Selkies - similarly to demon was on the early milkshake wagon, as well as myself, belisarius and marangal.

Looking closer at the wagons that have already had a few people's alignments revealed we have:
nero, demon, selkies - on first milkshake wagon
demon, selkies, soo - on continuation of first milkshake wagon
demon, selkies - on belisarius wagon
gc_bc, icerint, nero - on soo wagon and continuation of soo wagon
soo, demon, selkies - on marangal wagon

As you can see demon and selkies basically pop up on each wagon, and in particular those wagons which there are only a few unknowns on due to flips (and from my perspective, my own alignment). Note that they weren't on the milkshake lynch wagon. I'm not sure how to take this, as they both voted him earlier in the game.

Now that is simply looking at it based on numbers and probability.
Of demon and selkies I think selkies is town. I lean null on demon, or I should say I did before this analysis. I now think he is a very good lynch option.

vote: demon

[ThAdmiral]

Sorry Thad, I read up until 'wagon analysis' and just stopped. It's bullshit and the whole "1 scum between selkies and demon" conclusion you've managed to arrived to is srsly nothing more than sputtering drivel. 1) you are very very bad/paranoid town (hey why not both). or 2) you're scum and you want to look town by starting some revolutionary wagon on obvtown.

still reading up.

[ThAdmiral]

Does anyone else think demon is scum? Opinions pls.

[ThAdmiral]

This day is going to go exactly like yesterday. No one can decide on a lynch, and then we rush one at the end of the day.

All this talk about flavour and trying to outguess the set up is not helping. Worse actually, since the conclusion some people are coming to is that I'm lying scum.

Can people explain why demon is town, btw? I would almost accept null, but town?

[ThAdmiral]

Demon only pops up when he is mentioned to defend himself (and that is being generous, he basically just said the case was bullshit) and then disappears again.
Can we stop trying to build a lynch on flavour and start focusing on actual gameplay in the game?

[ThAdmiral]

Can we stop trying to build a lynch on flavour

How very petulant. It's not flavour alone I'm voting you for -- it's that your unflavoured claim makes no sense when everyone else's has flavour.

Demon only pops up when he is mentioned to defend himself (and that is being generous, he basically just said the case was bullshit) and then disappears again.
Can we stop trying to build a lynch on flavour and start focusing on actual gameplay in the game?

Mara's gameplay is very scummy. That's where it originates. It also has zilch to do with flavor. I don't understand how you are not more suspicious of her, if you are town.

My role HAS a big flavor glob to it, and a flavor to it, but it's obviously just flavor. So I get where you're coming from Selkies. Part of the reason i suspect Marangal (and to a lesser extent, Thad) is because her role is so completely convoluted while mine is so straightforward.

Ok so what has mara done gameplay-wise that is scummy?

[ThAdmiral]

Try reading my posts. I made a summary post like two pages for people like you not even trying to follow along.

Ouch, you can be mean amrun.

Ok so here is what I think you are referring to (if I'm wrong please don't snap at me again, my heart won't be able to take it):

@selkies: Wrong. Scum fakeclaiming power roles early isn't odd at all, because they're panicking. It's far more common than town early claiming, because they have the conviction of being town and a desire to protect their PR for the sake of the town.

That's a big reason I suspect Marangal in the first place. I want to re-iterate that it's not just set up spec that makes Marangal scum. Look how she claimed, piecemeal. Look through her ISO and find the scumhunting; it's sparse to nonexistent. Look how little she is concerned with how her claim doesn't fit (this should make her look more closely at other similar roles, and evaluate them in light of her own, but she doesn't). Look how inconsistent and nonsensical she has been re: Ghostlin's claim.

Ok it is a decent case, the most convincing bit is the fact she didn't protect ghostlin. My only counterpoint is this:
Lets say she is scum. Why defend me? I have a role that incriminates her, which she could easily say she thinks is bs (due to her role). Apart from that why defend someone who has claimed town pr at all? Especially town pr that she won't be able to deal with at night?
That's my main reason for thinking she is town.

Yes, I know it relies on me knowing that I am town, which is something you don't have the luxury of doing. But assuming I am town - can you explain her defending me?

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd, what is your read of Amrun?

I found her argument with ghostlin annoying, and obviously am not fond of her going after me, but despite this I think she is probably frustrating town - mainly because I'm unsure scum-amrun would be ballsy enough to go after people she knows would flip town power roles. It's not a strong read, though.

ABSOLUTELY. The worst thing that can happen for Scum Marangal at this point is for you to flip town. You flip town commuter, and then we go, "Well, what the fuck, how can there be that AND a doctor?" (Answer: exceedingly unlikely)

As long as you are alive, and people are still even marginally suspicious of you, that WIFOM is still alive. Her defending you is something I find pretty scummy, because I think it's far more natural for a town doctor to suspect you, as a claimed commuter, EVEN IF by some crazy turn of events you are both town.

This all makes sense. Even still I can't help having a gut feel that she is indeed town.

Demon is lurking, but that doesn't mean he should be lunched over people who are far scummier.

Would you say demon is one of your picks for scum? I did a quick iso of you earlier and it does seem that you have issues with a few things demon is posting.

So upon an ISO read of him, I’m for sure willing to lynch demon today. At this point, his lurking feels like an attempt to let the thad/mara fight keep him free from more scrutiny.

I think this is spot on.

Note that once again demon only appeared to defend himself...

It feels like there is quite a lot of support for a demon lynch yet the only people voting him are me and mara.

[ThAdmiral]

Appearing to defend myself is scummy? Can you link me to games where you were town and used this to catch scum, else you can stop repeating the same line, ty.

I also lurked before the Thad/Mara thing so...fuck off anyone who's trying to get onboard with that idea.

Beetlejuice tell is a well known one, am fairly certain I have been in games where it has caught scum (although can't remember off the top of my head), and regardless makes sense with a scum mindset - scum would prefer to cruise under the radar if they're allowed to but would feel obligated to come out and defend themselves if attacked.

I guess another question would be why are you only posting when people are attacking you? Why aren't you contributing to the game of your own volition?

Yes, but I view Demon as low priority.

Would you consider a compromise? I feel that if demon flips scum mara looks really good, if he flips town I would probably be willing to vote mara tomorrow.

[ThAdmiral]

We're at a conflict of reads between ThAd and Demon ATM...

Would you consider a compromise? I feel that

if demon flips scum mara looks really good

, if

he flips town I would probably be willing to vote mara tomorrow

.

Care to walk me through your logic here ThAd?

~GC

Pretty simple - if demon flips scum the person who has been pressing for his lynch (i.e. mara) will be very likely to be town. If demon flips scum I will be less sure about mara, basically because

someone

has to be scum, and would consider voting her tomorrow.

ThAd's disappearance at deadline is disappointing, I really wanted clarification on what he was talking about, but without it I can only come to my own conclusions.

Chill dude, lets not jump the gun.
I'm here.

If you fear I am trying to set up multiple mislynches (regarding mara) here is a new proposal - I will vote myself tomorrow if demon flips town. I figure I will probably be fucked anyway.

[ThAdmiral]

VOTE: ThAd

This is the most dissonant vote we have put down in our short and eventful history as a hydra.

Which one doesn't want to lynch me?

Whoever you are it is time to take this control of this hydra (by force if necessary) and make the right call!

[ThAdmiral]

Well you guys are wrong. I don't know what else to say. Hopefully this will teach you not to base your votes almost entirely on outguessing the setup. Honesty this is the sort of play I'd expect from a newbie game. My guess is after I flip town you will lynch Mara and then lose because I think she is town.

If I had to guess a scumteam I'd say gcbc, beli, demon.

[ThAdmiral]

Honestly have no idea how demon isn't on more than two votes.

[ThAdmiral]

Vote: Mara

Might as well try to survive

[ThAdmiral]

gg scum, game was too confusing and people spent far too much time talking about roles and setup imo.