Mini 1451: A Memory of Light (Game Over)

[Ghostlin]

/confirm

[Ghostlin]

I'm a vanilla townie

Why would you claim this?

[Ghostlin]

Why would you claim this?

I'll counter your question

What harm is there in claiming VT?

Define 'harm'. Three possibilities exist.

You could be an actual VT. In which case, you're telling the truth, no harm no foul. Although we're not massclaiming Day 1, or even all the VTs claiming Day 1.

You could be a PR that wants to claim VT to hide what you're doing. This, in and of itself isn't harmful to town.

You could be a scum, claiming VT in a bid to deflect suspicion on yourself. In which case this could be a gambit, and harmful to Town.

[Ghostlin]

Do you see how in ANY of those three situations it would be harmful for me to divulge what I'm actually doing?

So my next question is, why did you ask me a stupid question

Let me ask you a question: if someone was doing something you didn't understand for reasons you didn't understand, would you ask them why they were doing it?

[Ghostlin]

Oh, so you're doing a bullshit reaction test. Good to know.

[Ghostlin]

*accuseddentakky=accidentally. Yeah, I'm on my phone.

I tend to agree with ghostlin - it strikes me as disingenuous when people do something for a reaction and then act surprised when they get a reaction.

Mmm. I tend to find reaction tests in general bullshit, but I agree with both this, and your last post.

[Ghostlin]

eh, Matt's vt claim is prob some sort of gambit as he supposedly does them as either alignment.

I tend to treat such tactics as townish, since attention whoring reaction tests, while can be done by scum, don't usually get done because they attract attention and require an amount of...sticking your neck out and misinterpretation.

That said, could you link me to some scum meta where he's pulled off this gambit?

[Ghostlin]

Because assuming town tells the truth, at the very worst we're lynching a Vanilla Townie, right?

Short of another claim, we cannot assume he's telling the truth or lying. This is really the worst thing ever--there are a number of reasons for him to lie, and seems like a soft-push in Matt's direction void of any conviction. (For example, no vote is placed.)

Vote: Milkshake

[Ghostlin]

@Ghost
Your 74 - so you have a town read on Matt now?

I've had a town read declared at least since 66--and while I don't like them, performing reaction tests are generally town. Why I don't like reaction tests are not due to the alignment. Town players have a history of using reaction tests to drive mis-lynches, but they're generally well-intentioned, if not as accurate as randomly choosing one for the day.

[Ghostlin]

[quote="In post 99, Demon"][/quote]

No, that's where the above is falling apart; however, as I mentioned before, Milkshake's 'if we lynch Matt, all we lose is a VT' is horrible and not town motivated at all. In other words, if asked if I believed Matt was 100% town or even a town read, I'd have to say 'no'.

If asked if I believe he's scum, I'd probably say 'we'll see'. I'm not buying he's scum for the reaction test, even if he does them as scum.

If you're asking my gut, it would lean Town, although I've never been much of a gut player. He's a null.

Off topic: Also, Nic Cage's last post was bland, and horrible since he's had the same three or four pages of information the rest of us do and has not even an ur-suspicion of who scum might be? No willingness to vote so he can ask?

[Ghostlin]

This Milkshake wagon is going a bit fast and its making me worry...

The odds of one scum being on that wagon are good. Probably Milk's buddies if she's scum are treating her like a toxic asset hoping for a later deflection off the wagon, and if she does unlikely flip town...well, then at least one or two scum are making that push. SOO's vote seems to be a follow the leader vote--I've got my eyes on him and Nic next for scum.

[Ghostlin]

SOO's vote seems to be a follow the leader vote

I could buy that. You think he may have listed a buddy in Demon/Selk?

Mmm. I generally don't go for association tells this early.

[Ghostlin]

Ghost what is your 104 dude? None of that answered my question.

tl;dr version: Normally that'd be a town tell, but since he'd do it for any alignment it's not.

I'm not getting any thing town or scum that would indicate alignment. My gut right now says town, but I don't listen to it.

Even shorter tl;dr version: MattP is a null read.

[Ghostlin]

Sword of Omen's vote was the L-1. I feel like it takes commitment to place the L-1 vote. Ghostlin's, however, was the 3rd vote on the wagon. The third/fourth vote seems like the easiest time to hop on the bandwagon for free. Ghostlin didn't admit that he was just hopping on board, though, instead he looked for a reason to justify his vote. Looking at the reason that he provided (post #88), I feel like the reason came after the decision to vote. (1)

I have a second reason that I suspect Ghostlin. It's nothing too strong, but post #27

Define 'harm'. Three possibilities exist.

You could be an actual VT. In which case, you're telling the truth, no harm no foul. Although we're not massclaiming Day 1, or even all the VTs claiming Day 1.

You could be a PR that wants to claim VT to hide what you're doing. This, in and of itself isn't harmful to town.

You could be a scum, claiming VT in a bid to deflect suspicion on yourself. In which case this could be a gambit, and harmful to Town.

Again I feel like the decision to make this post came before the post itself. In other words, Ghostlin decided he should present some analysis, but only for the sake of presenting analysis, not for the sake of finding scum. If you look at the post, it doesn't help find scum.

I'll back this up with a vote this time.

VOTE: Ghostlin

1) What? You don't actually rebut anything I said when I voted you, but the "fact" the decision to vote was made before the reason. I put "fact" in quotes because I had read the thread, determined the reasons to vote you, and posted and voted you. This entire argument, you see boils down to a bullshit schoolyard argument:

"You manufactured the reasons to be on my wagon before the vote."
"No, I didn't."
"Yes, you did."
"No, I didn't."
...ad infinitum

Which in and of itself would be a fine suspicion at this juncture (being early in the game)

except you never rebut the actual reason I voted you.

In fact the reason I'm suspicious of Sword is that

a large chunk of his reasoning reads suspiciously close to mine.

I'm not saying he can't use the same reasoning for voting, but it looks like a 'me too' vote (which scum can do easier than town).

Also, you're entire reason for Sword being town is WIFOM. It's possible scum Sword is aware of the L-1 affect and did it look more townie, if it takes 'commitment', he wants to look committed in an effort to be more town.

Also, you talk about the third and fourth person on a wagon, but you don't talk about why you do/don't suspect them and then vote/mention just me. Nice.

2) Wow. We're really going to do this, going back to post #27. Alright, I'll play.

I wasn't scum hunting there per se--but questioning Matt on his motivations. He asked me what the harm was in claiming VT. I gave him that reasoning you quoted above. Two of those reasons were indeed harmless--even if he's lying to town, if he's got

a town PR

, the WIFOM alone might be able to get scum off his scent since he claimed VT in thread. Now, if he's too much of a bother, they'll shoot him anyway, but you take that risk in this game.

If he's VT, then there's really nothing gained or lost there.

If he's scum however, he wants to

hide

the fact that he's scum, and the claim has the same WIFOM in reverse. Also, VT's can at the same time be the most active and inactive players.

So, I was questioning to get Matt's motivations for doing so at that juncture.

I am ignoring the 'manufactured post' argument since I already answered it.

So let me ask this: who's on your scum list besides me?

[Ghostlin]

Also, Nero, do you often try to find buddies this early like you did in #120?

[Ghostlin]

Even on D1? Whyever not?

It's often wrong, gets me into too much trouble and, in this case, is really immaterial to my scum reads/tells in this particular point.

There are people with better guts than me, but I've seen more crap voting that was wrong on gut than anything else.

You've not stuck out much to me. Who's scum right now?

[Ghostlin]

Also, Nero, do you often try to find buddies this early like you did in #120?

Yes. I don't think there's any reason to not speculate.

Can I have a tiny chunk of your meta as town doing that?

[Ghostlin]

Demon is a good person to take a look at as well, both him and Ghost sheeped the vote, while at the same time trying to look active.

Did you actually read my reasoning for voting Milkshake? And I question this voting Milkshake being a reaction test, since this was taken to L-1 already. If Matt jumps off, that's one thing, but you accuse me and Demon of sheeping and don't even discuss the Nero Cain vote.

[Ghostlin]

note that

"You manufactured the reasons to be on my wagon before the vote."

is I believe a typo. Should be AFTER the vote. (After the decision to vote).

Also note that the schoolyard argument only comes in to play if the second point after the initial point is... not in fact a point, but instead "No, I didn't.")

This is the only response to manufacturing the post after deciding to vote. There's no way you can tell that. It's kind of like my read on Matt P--gut is nice and all, but it's not really something you can prove or substantiate in thread.

[Ghostlin]

note that

"You manufactured the reasons to be on my wagon before the vote."

is I believe a typo. Should be AFTER the vote. (After the decision to vote).

Also note that the schoolyard argument only comes in to play if the second point after the initial point is... not in fact a point, but instead "No, I didn't.")

This is the only response to manufacturing the post after deciding to vote. There's no way you can tell that. It's kind of like my read on Matt P--gut is nice and all, but it's not really something you can prove or substantiate in thread.

[Ghostlin]

Damn fucking doublepost.

[Ghostlin]

MattP is a null read.

I've had a town read declared at least since 66

Not incongruous when you realize that my natural inclination is warring with the idea that he does it as a null. Also, gut is telling me he's town.

The brain's having issues with the stomach. I hope to have actual reasons for MattP town soon, but he's not been interacting lately.

[Ghostlin]

MattP is a null read.

I've had a town read declared at least since 66

Not incongruous when you realize that my natural inclination is warring with the idea that he does it as a null. Also, gut is telling me he's town.

The brain's having issues with the stomach. I hope to have actual reasons for MattP town soon, but he's not been interacting lately.

[Ghostlin]

God dammit. Stupid internet/mafiascum.

[Ghostlin]

I'm bothered by a lot of milkshake's playchoices (e.g., the stuff with Nero -- didn't seem like a natural/organic interaction to me from milk's side). Milk's explanation that he was exploring people's take on the MattP situation doesn't make sense to me because Nero is someone who had already been pretty clear. Milkscum trying to push a wagon from the sidelines accounts for this kind of stuff..

While we're at it, what do you think of Milk's current vote, Ice?

[Ghostlin]

If milk is town, then Ghostlin is a good bet for scum. Notice the casual cognitive dissonance in this post. Milk is "unlikely" to flip town, but SOO's "follow the leader" vote is suspect? Treating her as town while calling her scum.

Jesus Christ.

You're treating two things that aren't really alignment indicative of each other as cognitive dissonance.

SOO's vote almost exactly echoes the reasoning provided by the rest of town. In that, it's completely unnecessary, Amrun.

If Milkshake is scum, then SOO could very easily be bussing her as scum.

If Milkshake is town and I don't believe she is, then SOO could be scum to get her wagon off.

Either way, I feel that he didn't share anything we didn't already accuse Milkshake of, and I feel he could be smart enough to USE L-1 in that manner.

Any particular reason why you feel that's cognitively dissonant is a complete misrep on your part.

[Ghostlin]

In fact 118 is BW analysis. I was figuring out which player was more likely jumping on the wagon to push it forward and I like the idea of SOO. His explanation post for voting for Milkshake didn't move anything forward and looked more active than it was.

Either way, I don't have to tell you that scum like to bus if they feel their buddy's going down. The initial reasoning that Milk used is bad--Matt's reaction fishing with the VT claim so just lynching a VT claim because you don't have to worry about hitting a PR is in and of itself anti-town. Which is where we started this argument.

[Ghostlin]

The odds of one scum being on that wagon are good. Probably Milk's buddies if she's scum are treating her like a toxic asset hoping for a later deflection off the wagon (1), and if she does unlikely(2) flip town...well, then at least one or two scum are making that push. SOO's vote seems to be a follow the leader vote--I've got my eyes on him and Nic next for scum.

Here, Amrun let me diagram this for you. Because I've

never

said anything of the sort of knowing Milkshake is Town.

1) Milk has buddies=Milk is scum. Also, I said 'if she's scum'.

2) Unlikely=not very likely=I don't find this very likely. I would type Milkshake is scum over and over in the thread only I'd probably be accused of knowing her alignmeny and BEING SCUM for THAT.

[Ghostlin]

Also, I'd like to hear Beli's reads, and thoughts.

[Ghostlin]

No, the amount of times you don't get the English language is hilarious, Amrun. I'm not

hiding

my meaning in anyway.

But, actually, of equal importance is your reaction to Selkies #191. See if you caught what I did.

[Ghostlin]

We know you aren't stupid enough to say something about knowing I'm town. Who is that stupid? But the fact that YOU think WE think you are that stupid might indicate that there was actually a possibility of you being that stupid, because the knowledge is actually there in your mind. You're just smart enough to ignore it.

How many games have you played on this site? Because I've actually seen people go 'how do you know X is town/scum? If you know X is town/scum, you must be scum because only scum would be the only ones to know THAT.

Now the idea is stupid, it's almost on par with too dumb for scum. However, my

dreams

of that never happening EVER will not come true anytime soon.

[Ghostlin]

You didn't answer my question, Amrun.

Also, Mod--could you change Nic Cage to Amrun in the VC?

I di--oh. Uh. Yeah.

[Ghostlin]

But, actually, of equal importance is your reaction to Selkies #191.

Well, it was in the form of a statement, but that's just splitting hairs.

[Ghostlin]

^That was to Amrun.

[Ghostlin]

Ghost: If you mean the post where you voted for milkshake, then yeah I read it but I didn't find any decent reasoning behind that post. It seems you are voting Milk because you don't agree with him, and because you see things that he doesn't?

Why are you seemingly worried about your gut getting you in trouble? I'm taking that phrase to mean that it usually gets alot of heat placed in your direction and has a plausibility of getting you lynched? that isn't something that town is worried about.

1) No, I'm voting for Milk because a push on a claimed VT is pretty terrible, actually. Also, she didn't even bother to back her conviction with a vote.

2) Nice interpretation--but no, it actually means that I can get the scum/town thing horribly wrong and try to get townies lynched because i didn't like something about them, which is antithetical to my win con. My gut does not operate correctly, and what is a gut tell for some people that always works never works the same in my gut.

For example, certain players who are abrasive (yes, more than me, guys) make me mad and I tend to want to see them as scum because I'm pissed off.

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin, if you mean that they're sucking up to me and I suspect them, well, yes, that's true, but I haven't decided if it's genuine or not. It's something scum might do to town that enters the game strong and it's also something town might do with a town read, so...

That was it. The kind of sucking up+the not a defense.

[Ghostlin]

1) No, I'm voting for Milk because

a push on a claimed VT

is pretty terrible, actually.

Wait why

Why is a push on a p1 claimed VT by a person with a meta of claiming VT "terrible"

????

It's MattP who has the meta for claiming VT, not Milkshake.

You didn't read the post at all, did you?

A push on a claimed VT=Matt P, who claimed VT. But thanks for playing.

[Ghostlin]

Summarize your opinion of Selkies for me, Ghostlin.

Feeling slightly queasy about that slot. Like it's..not something I can name, actually. They hadn't been town or scum for me until that last post clanged. There's no point in such...cordiality from a hydra, particularly since you occupied a slot that was low activity and somewhat suspicious.

[Ghostlin]

Why is a push on a p1 claimed VT by a person with a meta of claiming VT "terrible"

You don't know if such a person is telling the truth to get reactions, lying to get reactions or to

hide

something. The push is artificial because VT doesn't mean anything page 1; and if Matt's telling the truth...

Look. Beyond the WIFOM, let's break it down here.

If Matt is serious, what does it actually hurt?

It's not like he's power lurking (well, at that point, he wasn't), he wasn't playing the game in a manner that was actively trolling anyone (I had thought this originally, but his milkshake vote seems to indicate it was reaction fishing), and the motive of claiming VT at this point is hardly anti-town unless Matt's actively scum. Which is one of three possibilities.

The push is lazy scumhunting. It proposes a PL that does roughly NOTHING for us even from a game standpoint.

[Ghostlin]

IMO Cain is doing exactly what he accuses me of doing. He's sucking up to you.

I accused you of sucking up to Amrun? no. I think I rather kill this today instead of Milkshake. Make it so guys.

Apologies. I got you confused with Ghostlin.

- f

Quote a single post where this is true. I'll wait.

[Ghostlin]

Mmm. Well, I'm going to be utterly horrible and talk to and about someone else.

Miss Destroyer: reads please.

I feel for a hydra, they're doing the absolute minimum this game.

[Ghostlin]

I didn't want to say blatantly that Matt was a scumread, especially since this hydra is coming off a game where we got a lot of flak for fakeclaiming PGO as innocent child, and Matt wasn't really a scumread

I'm not sure this is comparing apples to apples. Also, this is stupid considering how Innocent Child works.

[Ghostlin]

I do want to vote Matt. You'll notice that Matt is on my 3/4 scum list.

I have a question for Matt, too, while we're on the topic:

MattP, do you believe in "never lie as town?"

...This question bothers me. It seems like you'll continue to use this for whatever motivation you got against Matt regardless of how this is answered.

[Ghostlin]

...This question bothers me. It seems like you'll continue to use this for whatever motivation you got against Matt regardless of how this is answered.

You're calling

that

a loaded question?

In what way is it loaded? Specific examples please.

You don't see it in context?

Matt can only answer the question two ways: if he says yes, then milkshake can then use this to try to lynch him under the fact he's a liability to town because he might be lying to us. If he says no, then suspicion can safely ride with him all game because he's willing to lie to Town.

[Ghostlin]

Matt can only answer the question two ways: if he says yes, then milkshake can then use this to try to lynch him under the fact he's a liability to town because he might be lying to us. If he says no, then suspicion can safely ride with him all game because he's willing to lie to Town.

That's rubbish. If he says yes, then that makes us more willing to pursue a Lynch All Liars policy lynch, which is a common enough with current site meta that Matt's answer won't affect it significantly. If he says no, then he's willing to lie to town

in order to further his wincon

. This is a given for scum, and for town it's neutral at worst.

What the question does is make Matt easier to read for us, which is a town-minded objective.

So it leads to a bullshit lynch all liars lynch either way.

This is what I said. The problem between you and me is you're OK with this. Either answer leads directly to lynch Matt for a possible lynch all liars later, or we lynch Matt because we suspect his wincon isn't ours.

Let me rephrase this: do you see any outcome for the question that doesn't lead down a possibility where we don't lynch Matt?

[Ghostlin]

Town, consider this: the question is a poisonous confirmation question. Beli and Milkshake are OK with both outcomes leading to a Matt P lynch--even when we've talked about the fact that the gambit doesn't prove to hurt anyone at this juncture of the game.

Man's a null to me with a gut town read, but it looks like both Milk and Beli want to 'set' up a push for this lynch. Permit the questions to be asked: why? to what gain?

Why would you lynch Matt when there are people who are actually acting somewhat scummy today that we could lynch? At best, Matt's lynch would be a PL confirmation lynch for alignment.

Matt P is a horribly sub-optimal lynch today.

And Beli, if you believed anything you just posted, why aren't you voting for Matt P?

[Ghostlin]

'm actually interested in whether or not you believe in "Never lie as town," Ghostlin? Just curious (I think the answer is no?)

The answer is no, but I generally don't. You have to remember any lies later, so even as scum I tend to keep it simple.

[Ghostlin]

Yes -- the town as a whole has an easier time reading Matt. One of the possibilities of this is that we decide he's not scum and therefore do not lynch him.

Yes, but your options were:

That's rubbish.

If he says yes, then that makes us more willing to pursue a Lynch All Liars policy lynch, which is a common enough with current site meta that Matt's answer won't affect it significantly. If he says no, then he's willing to lie to town in order to further his wincon. This is a given for scum, and for town it's neutral at worst.

What the question does is make Matt easier to read for us, which is a town-minded objective.

The question can obviously be interpreted as scum either way. Do you see a way he can answer that in a pro-town way that wouldn't lead you down either of those conclusions? Why would you say it makes Matt easier to read when either answer leads to either a PL or something that is seen as scum-motivated.

The problem is supposedly you have problems with my no-win premise, and you outline two lose-lose situtations.

[Ghostlin]

Nice misrep. I did not say I was OK with a Matt lynch, since I have not yet decided if I am or not.

VOTE: Ghostlin

Then why are you drawing conclusions where Matt is scum to the answer of the question. No where do you even consider a town motive, even if you write the question off as a 'not a trap' question.

[Ghostlin]

Nice misrep. I did not say I was OK with a Matt lynch, since I have not yet decided if I am or not.

VOTE: Ghostlin

Then why are you drawing conclusions where Matt is scum to the answer of the question. No where do you even consider a town motive, even if you write the question off as a 'not a trap' question.

[Ghostlin]

This is the night that either makes me or fordoes me quite.

Yes, I get this is Shakespeare, but what the fuck is this?

[Ghostlin]

If you actually think lying on its own is scummy then reevaluate your scumhunting abilities

It's the

perception of liars

that matter, and the perception of people who do it. Mafia, while being a game of 'trust no one', is essentially a game of trust--do I believe these set of behaviors are more Town than scum, has the person been caught in a lie likely to hurt Town?

I think you discredit the all of that if you're narrow enough to think you can lie and not reap some sort of whirlwind later.

[Ghostlin]

However, his later aggression makes me think slightly better of him. I think his attack is a bit silly, but the fact that he's making it is a bit aggressive. I know for sure I have nailed Ghostlin as scum before but I don't remember when/where so I don't know if this is based on anything or I am making it up. >.>

You did. The pet rescue game run by Zor. It wasn't my best work as scum. (At least this is the game I remember. If you're not actually in it, so sue me.)

Honestly, if there's scum on my wagon, you ain't it, but you're being fucking irritating. I'm not going to sit around and split verbal hairs with you, and I'm really exhausted that if I called milkshake 100% scum some asshat'd reason there'd be no way I could know that unless I was scum, or so someone would reason. Your. Reasoning. Is. Bullshit. There. I've fucking said it.

Let's stop playing mind games with each other. What do you think of Beli's push on me due to my reaction of milkshake's question? You mention the aggressive reaction, but you omit the Beli push on my wagon.

[Ghostlin]

Also, I no longer care the reason why MattP may have/may have not have lied. Watching you all debate game theory doesn't erase two facts I see in this thread:

1) Milkshake's original reasoning was to discuss a policy lynch on Matt, but not being dedicated enough to push for it. What's worse is they seem indirectly committed to it while trying to lynch me, hence the original question to Matt being bad (I still think it's a trap question, but that's neither here or there).

2) Miss Destroyer's last post was the laziest push I've read in a while from a hydra that is contributing virtually

nothing

this game. (GCBC at least has made an effort to contribute when he's come back)

Also, while this one is up for debate, I find Beli somewhat extremely dissonant in his responses about the question, and I like his push on me on nothing more than disagreement less.

[Ghostlin]

It's because you don't even remotely understand my reasoning. I don't want or expect you to say anyone is 100% scum, or town, or whatever.

I'm trying to think of how to better explain it but I can't think of a good way, and you're not the one I'm trying to convince anyway so it doesn't really matter.

I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT, NOR CAN ANYONE ELSE IF YOU CAN'T EVEN EXPLAIN IT.

God damn it, if it was gut I could get that. I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, but I could get it.

But this is like a fucking riddle,

hidden

in a

dream

, wrapped in a fucking enigma with golden fucking stars.

[Ghostlin]

If milk is town, then Ghostlin is a good bet for scum. Notice the casual cognitive dissonance in this post. Milk is "unlikely" to flip town, but SOO's "follow the leader" vote is suspect? Treating her as town while calling her scum.

I'll have a go at explaining this again.

Milk is unlikely to flip town, ie is likely to flip scum.

But the way he talks about SoO's vote treats milkshake as town. I have never seen someone call a scum vote a "follow the leader" vote. Later, Ghostlin tries to explain this, iirc, but the original wording still doesn't seem like it's genuinely from a town perspective.

It's like saying "milk is scum, but these people scumfucking onto her wagon are also scum!" It's trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Who does that? Scum.

It's not like that wording CAN'T be explained away, with effort -- Ghostlin is not stupid and would not say something that blatantly contradicts itself. But SUBCONSCIOUSLY, I feel a confliction there.

Except it's not contradictory at all in the mechanics of the game. SOO's vote at the time seemed to either position himself as scum on a wagon to look town--so either a bus or a way to push a lynch you know is safe. Pushing SOO has little to do with Milkshake's actual alignment, which is what I wanted to convey.

You seem to be compounding it with motive that is simply not true. It's not that I don't get it, Amrun, it's that you're assigning shit to me that simply isn't true; is highly frankly subjective, and is couched in your personal tells.

[Ghostlin]

Shit. I don't care if you change your vote, I want you to admit fucking here and now that you have zero actual proof besides arguing over what certain phrases mean, and that's EXACTLY what you've based my case on. Because if there's no possible way to explain myself or provide a defense to my language, I'd like to move on.

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin still seems a little scummy to me. "I never made a mistake! Your views are subjective!" seems kind of like something scum would say. Town can't feel insecure about what they said being towny. No matter what town says it is "towny" and the people who think otherwise are wrong. Also, all views are subjective at this stage of the game.

Wow.

That's

a misrep if I ever read one.

A closer summation of my last post would be 'I meant exactly what I said, you're reading your own personal tells/putting motives that don't exist/words in my mouth.'

No where did I claim perfection. That's an awful summation, and awful does actually mean scummy in this case.

[Ghostlin]

Ghost is town and I'm not saying anything more

Someone's been paying attention this game. I'm glad I've not had to

hide

it from someone.

[Ghostlin]

I think the very act of saying that sword of omens is scum no matter of milkshake's alignment is scummy, especially given soo's relative level of content. I think HOW you did this, and the words you used, are even scummier.

And your response now is scummier still. Trying to reduce my argument into a strawman and object to it on grounds that "it's subjective" and "it uses personal tells" is the same thing you did with milkshake by saying "it's just my word vs. yours!"

How, Amrun? I could go on that your

dream

-like delusion of the existing reality in front of you means we've not been playing the same game or reading the same game thread, but you've not really impressed anyone on how the response is scummier besides dealing in complete and utter intangibles.

Let me ask you a question: SOO posted reasons similar to mine voting Milkshake. His post count has been low, but he was able to post enough to elucidate reasons for voting Milkshake and looking Town. Do you or do you not think it's suspicious considering the amount of stuff he's posted?

Amrun, consider for a moment I've been feeding ducks.

[Ghostlin]

Selkies calls Ghostlin town, and now all of a sudden, he doesn't have to "hide" from them, meaning they are genuinely reading him, MEANING THEY ARE 100% TOWN. No one has to "hide" their towniness from scum.

Nope, this isn't what I meant. Try again.

[Ghostlin]

I'm not spelling it out for you, Amrun. I don't want to give scum any more clues than I already fucking have.

[Ghostlin]

You really ARE being a DOOFUS, Amrun. I ain't fullclaiming shit.

So go ahead and rage, it seems to be doing you wonders considering how utterly stupid you've seemed to be this game. Milkshake town, I know Selkies's alignment. Shit.

I've been planning out fucking precise wording for muitiples of my posts and you can't get your head out of your arse to find it. You have no cause to ream me after game the way you've been playing this entire fucking Day 1 and I will probably be ignoring you for the rest of the fucking game because your play has disguised me to the point where even you're either dumb town or scum trying to fucking troll me.

MOTHERFUCKING SHIT.

[Ghostlin]

I don't WANT you to fullclaim. I want you to NOT FUCKING DO DUMB SHIT LIKE THIS EVER. I'm mad that you did this, ESPECIALLY if you're not bullshitting. Like,I went out of my FUCKING WAY not to make a big deal about your blundering obvious hints and act like they were nothing, and you have to go and point a FUCKING NEON ARROW at them for scum.

Jesus Christ.

Wait. If you caught them, then WHY. IN. THE. FUCK. ARE. YOU. VOTING. ME.

THIS IMPLIES YOU KNOW FUCKING WELL I'M TOWN.

[Ghostlin]

AND HAVE PROBABLY KNOWN I'M TOWN FOR A BIT NOW. WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU----GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

[Ghostlin]

oh yeah, fery and I just talked. we should also be looking at Miss Destroyer, they're cruising.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ThAdmiral

What's wrong with talking a lot?

This is almost RVSy

But anyways, Amrun, Milkshake, and Ghostlin are solid town.

Can we just lynch Beli now

It's scary how I agree with both of these. Also liking Amrun's push on Ad.

Unvote, Vote: Beliscum

[Ghostlin]

Reacting to a scummy action with a vote is not RVS. RVS is voting for no real reason. This is voting for someone who is trying to shut down discussion, and discussion is needed to find scum.

Amrun's verbosity makes her easier to read. I like easy to read. I will not be voting to lynch Amrun anytime soon specifically because of the end result of her large amount of posts.

This is really lazy reasoning. I would of accepted this on Page 5, but not Page 20+ Day 1 of an ongoing game.

[Ghostlin]

Alright. It's only page 18. 443 is still fucking valid.

[Ghostlin]

This is really lazy reasoning. I would of accepted this on Page 5, but not Page 20+ Day 1 of an ongoing game.

The page is not relevant. I will vote for someone trying to shut down discussion on page 50+ on Day 4 of an ongoing game unless it's lylo.

Yes, but that push was so soft, I think Snuggles the fucking bear wouldn't of suggested you try something else besides fucking Downy. You're not even

trying

, are you?

[Ghostlin]

Ad, I vaguely remember playing with you, you're kind of like this and hardish to read. You're in my null pile.

I'm still not a fan of milk, for example, #465 is fucking silly because GCBC seems Town to me, and I loathe the pet theory that there's a votable link between Ad and GCBC at this stage.

However, lazy scum hunting beats no scum hunting every day of the week, and that's what Beli did with his 'oh no, ThAd is muffling Amrun.' Please, I just went toe to toe with Amrun and nothing, no fucking thing will shut Amrun up if she doesn't want to. (With the possible exception of her V/LA until Thursday.) You were fishing for stuff.

[Ghostlin]

You know, looking over Swords ISO, I'm liking both wagons, but would like to see Beli fry just a little bit more. Let's ignore the L-1 vote for a minute (again, that's personal tells).

There are a huge amount of posts of Swords apologizing for not producing stuff. This itself is not scummy, I admit.

#380, and this is BEFORE me and the Amrun slap fight, has essentially have me and GCBC pegged as the scum team. What does our hero do with this revelation? Does he vote one of us to make us squirm and fry and pray for our very lives? He...promises more content.

Let me make sure this is documented here in this thread: SOO claims he knows who the scumteam is and then

DOESN'T FUCKING VOTE THEM

. Yeah, yeah he's trying to catch up or some shit like that, but if he was afraid of a quick lynch on me for example, he could of kept a vote on GCBC to respond to.

Let me be clear: there's no fucking reason to 'call it' and then not vote. It's against your wincon. You are trying to lynch scum and convince others to do the same. It's akin to not scum hunting because you obviously don't believe you've got it well enough to even be arsed to have people follow you.

[Ghostlin]

Curious here, Gostlin…I don’t remember playing in a game with you before…so why would you feel that I am smart enough to use L-1 in “that matter”? Especially since I don’t have much post history in this game to compare it to…Also, if you’ve ever heard Nero tell it , he would say I am a shit player who needs other people to stick up for me . Please correct me if I’m wrong, Nero…Also, how exactly is my vote unnecessary again? Just because it echoes other people?

Yes. Yes. A FUCKING BILLION TIMES YES. It shows complete lack of thought, frankly. It shows all of the good vibes for being the L-1 slot and makes you feel syrupy and good. You probably FUCKING chortled when you cast that vote.

Plus, the whole 'I don't know if we've played in a game before' is bullshit since I've seen you around before. I may have not played in a game with you, but this isn't your first rodeo, isn't it?

(Plus, really, LOL I'M A NEWB? Horrible, scummy defense. Let me change that LOL, YOU CAN'T TELL I'VE NEVER PLAYED MAFIA AND DON'T KNOW HOW L-1 LOOKS TO TOWNS is even worse.)

[Ghostlin]

But sure, let me touch a little more on you for a minute:
Your blatant crumbs were bad. I thought long and hard on you to try and figure out the motivation behind it…
There are 2 options here:
1. you could be town horribly crumbing your role for god knows why.
2. you could scum trying to town to obv-crumb to look town.

If it was 1 and you were town, then please pray tell…look at Milk’s ISO and tell me again why you think he is scum.
Seriously, I want you to start at #130. And then tell me...You would see it if you were town…
And what would be the point of obv-crumbing so blatantly as town? I can't find a single one....at all…

Here’s what I think Ghost…
I think you are scum….
In fact, i’d bet a kingdom on it…

You are scum trying to crumb your shit to appear obv-town and draw out town PR’s.
IF you WERE town, and had read that town PM, then you would know WHY it would be a BAD BAD BAD idea to do what you did.


VOTE: Ghostlin

We're not talking about Milk right now, cupcake. We're talking about you. Nice deflection, however. You had the opportunity to vote me before my spat with Amrun and you didn't, and now you're dipping into the 'hrr, the breadcrumbs are lame' not-a-defense. Honestly, thanks for biting down on this hard, I was beginning to despair obv scum wouldn't take this chance to shake a bit into the the Town PR mislynch.

Oh, there IS a reason, not a GOOD one maybe, but there IS a reason I did what I did. TWO, actually, and I ain't going to GIVE you that.

Tell you what. LYNCH ME. I FUCKING DARE YOU. We can make this 1v1 anytime you want, SOO. Any. Fucking. Time.

[Ghostlin]

fine by me you if you want to be a little shit about it...

you ain't town cause if you were and you read your shit you'd know what you did..


walker my ass...

confirm vote: Ghost

I'm a better chance of being lynched to be fair.

^^ what I mean by that is you should probably vote me instead. Or do you plan to shift to me if my wagon gets any bigger?

I don't like this post. It's either a bizarre defense of me, or Ad trying to gain Town points by light offering his wagon instead of lynching me. (Or both, I guess they're not exclusive.) Almost if he wants to come out, say I'm town but just stops shy of doing it.

There's some juicy bullshit in SOO's reads, and we'll talk about his scum slots here in a second.

[Ghostlin]

Ms Des – I have her (sorry HD, I think of MsM as the main head here)

as null, leaning scum

…she gets pretty flippant with her replies as scum (like she did with me above)…
ThAd – has been pretty quiet so far which I don’t like…he mainly only touched on Milk and Selkies,(said he was tempted to vote on Selkies) yet votes on AMrun for no real reason..then when that gets attention, he moves it back to Milk…i would put him in my

possible scum pile

…

See the bold above? Who the fuck uses this language in talking about scum reads? These are supposed to be his possible alternative lynches to me, and they read more like 'well, this person's null-scum, and this person might be scum...'

Jesus Christ. We're not even talking derivative, we're talking wishy-washy fence sitting bullshit that doesn't show utter commitment. His hard push on me only came when I called him on how fucking inconsistent he is and he has the gall to light push two other people as scum without even really pushing them.

[Ghostlin]

Who the fuck uses this language in talking about scum reads?

Uh, at least one town player every single game I've ever played?

It's horrible. He's calling the scum team one post, calling GCBC Town now because 'he doubts he'd tie himself to scum this early'; and he comes back with two null-scum reads and me. It's asinine.

I also still want to hang you, since this still isn't scum hunting but attacking my credibility.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Alright 'attacking' is the wrong word. More to the point of 'questioning my credibility to pursue this point'.

[Ghostlin]

Ah, that moviestar game. I didn't omit that intentionally, obviously. Here's a link: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=12697

If that's incriminating... then... ok? GoodCop_BadCop really stretching here to get a vote on me. Definitely mafia looking for a town lynch, imo. Or just looking to contribute but having a difficult time making sense.

So are you saying the meta he's using is invalid, he doesn't understand it, or what?

[Ghostlin]

Gah, I was wrong about Belisarius. I'm pretty sure I was. Look at him, he's town. I don't know how I thought he was scum.

UNVOTE: Belisarius

GoodCop_BadCop and ThAdmiral are trying desperately to push my wagon. A town wagon. But do they know it is a town wagon? That is the question.

Why are you deliberately manufacturing WIFOM?

[Ghostlin]

Does that count as WIFOM? It is a question of information. Are they scum who know they are pushing for a mislynch? Or are they town who erroneously believe they are trying to hang scum?

It's an impossible question to answer, involves multiple game modes and what ifs (because NEITHER of them are going to claim) and does nothing to scumhunt for Town.

[Ghostlin]

Gah, I was wrong about Belisarius. I'm pretty sure I was. Look at him, he's town. I don't know how I thought he was scum.

UNVOTE: Belisarius

GoodCop_BadCop and ThAdmiral are trying desperately to push my wagon. A town wagon. But do they know it is a town wagon? That is the question.

Alright. There are really two horrible things about this post, and I'm going to start with the question.

The question is bad not because it is not valid. It is bad because the entire point of being Town is to find the scum, and if GCBC and Ad are scum then it's Milkshake's job to come up with the reasoning. Milkshake is essentially sub-letting this point out to Town at this point of the game. There was a golden opportunity here to make valid points on why Ad/GCBC are scum, and she turns it into a talking point.

Also, the point is WIFOMIC because no one knows if Milk's lying about it being a Town wagon, and if it's a scum wagon, what does that mean?

#523...I don't know, guys, what else did you expect Beli to say in his defense? Yes, the post has town motive, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily Town motivated. In other words, it could be the right words for scum to say to get the wagon to dissolve. I question Milk jumping off at this point due to that point.

Really, the only thing that makes me question Milk scum is the confusion that seems to come out during the posts, and it seems somewhat genuine.

We'll talk about where I'll be moving my vote in the next post. I don't want to shit up the thread with a wall.

Unvote.

[Ghostlin]

because of a ThAd vote…oh and because Beli questions his credibility? really?

My main beef with Ghostlin is this:
His hints weren’t for generic town…they were for specific people.

Based on the info in my pm, I’m fairly certain scum know about these specific people.

So, considering Ghostlin is “one of these” and advertising as such (knowing that scum would be looking for this type) why would he blatantly crumb this? To put a target on himself? No…bottom line is, he wouldn’t..

whereas scum could easily do this to draw out those same people

.


In post 485, Ghostlin wrote:
Plus, really, LOL I'M A NEWB? Horrible, scummy defense.

I’ve never once claimed Newb. So sorry, but no.

Kids, I'm pretty sure SOO is either:
1) Softclaiming a role similar to mine
2) Softclaiming scum
3) Softclaiming both (they're not mutually exclusive)

Read the 'based on the info in my role PM' sentence. Here, let me bold it for you. Here's my problem with this. Scum may have a role that interacts with these but doesn't know who they are or what they do; that's true, but that's not essentially canon in the role PM I got. I wouldn't have necessarily assumed this by the verbiage in my role PM, nor would I have claimed it. SOO makes that leap in assuming I'm scum playing a clever ploy to flush out a PR that unless I knew that role was showing up due to setup speculation

or

there's something in my PM as scum that indicates that

or

scum got a similar role PM there'd be no indication to me of that.

I'd almost rather lynch Belisaurus for not scumhunting or Milkshake for being obfuscatory and not scum hunting today because I'm afraid they might slither away on later days. I'd almost really would because watching SOO dig himself this hole is amusing to me and more than I hoped for when I bread crumbed.

However, SOO just set this up as a 1v1. We're lynching him or me today.

Vote: SOO

I have very explicit instruction for town: if I survive today, lynch me before LYLO/MYLO. Scum may want to keep me around for WIFOM purposes, and I don't want that to happen.

[Ghostlin]

Two more things I forgot in my last post:

1) Apparently I'm not allowed to pressure someone else while voting Beli, particularly since Beli's not giving us much to interact with. In his wall post where he quotes me he mentions everything I dislike about his posts and why I didn't vote him.

Cupcake, the mod didn't give me the coveted triple voter role to cover you, Milkshake, and Beli all at the same time. Why don't you work on that for me?

I’ve never once claimed Newb. So sorry, but no.

No, but you did claim that I couldn't know that you've played enough mafia games to know Town perception because we've never played in a game together.

Which is asinine because you've been around a bit. You were here when I was last here before my hiatus. I presume you didn't stop playing games when I did.

[Ghostlin]

ThAd might be a jester

Yeah, what's with ThAdmiral calling himself scummy and asking why people aren't voting him. Also, why is he directly telling people to vote me when he doesn't himself even seem to have any particular reason why I'm scum. At least GoodCop_BadCop has that contrived meta argument.

VOTE: ThAdmiral

I'm going to give him what he wants. This will help us get an explanation. Telling people to vote you is not town behavior. It is not jester behavior, either, actually, and this setup is not likely to have a jester anyway.

You are referring to this post. Ghostlin is not impressed.

You mention GCBC as your scum read, and you vote the Ad for the following reasons:
1) Not having a reason for voting you (this actually isn't the problem Ghostlin has a problem with, but it's epidemic of a greater one)
2) Ad dared people to vote him and called himself scummy.

Here's my problem. One of these has possible scum motivation: the voting you without a reason to get a lynch pushed (at this moment town or scum, it really doesn't matter; both have possible applications). The second doesn't fit into scum motivation aside from removing votes from your or Beli's wagon, both of which Ad's pushed today. And even that, I'm not buying. So Ad's move seems to be WTF motivated. It might be reaction testing to see if someone bites. He might be trolling.

What this post tells me isn't necessarily of Ad, but of you. There's not been a lot of progression of coherent thought. Someone (forgive me I don't remember who) said that you didn't revote GCBC who was one of your major scum reads, and now Ad is, and he's on your wagon. You unvoted Beli for one post that sounded Town. That's a pretty big flip from the scum read you said you were getting.

[Ghostlin]

Selkies, 563 didn't read like a town post to me. Not only did he not bother to figure out which person MM was talking to, he used it for a rather opportunistic push.

[Ghostlin]

milkshake 3 (ThAdmiral, MattP, GoodCop_BadCop)
sword_of_omens 3 (Iecerint, Nero Cain, Ghostlin)
ThAdmiral 3 (Belisarius, Amrun, milkshake)

These seem to be our plays of the day for the moment. In order:

Milkshake:

well, I've talked about milkshake over and over and ad infinitum. The fact that it's been almost a backslide into AtE doesn't help their case any. Even with the uncertainty factor, I'm OK with a Milkshake lynch today because I feel they've been scummy enough.

SOO:

Has set up a 1v1 where he thinks my crumbs are scummy, and to root out players with the same abilities as me. The premise would be fine, except that's all he's really got, and his response to this was to soft counter claim to prove his own point.

NOBODY FUCKING DOES THIS. If someone's rolefishing, you don't reply with the information they're fishing for right after you claim they were fishing. It's not only illogical, it's nuts and if Omens was town, he just hurt town MORE. There's no logical reason to do it as town. NONE. Note this isn't an incidence of full claim/counter claim, it's more of breadcrumb/going to accuse you of rolefishing and softclaim.

So I feel he's framed the situation that you either have to prove I'm the real deal or he is. However, you don't have to do this today.

Ad:

I had a very soft Town read on Ad at the beginning of the day. It's crumpling as he does more and more things that don't make sense. I'd prefer the above two, obviously, but the confirmation of a lynch and seeing who was instrumental is more important to Town. I also don't like two of the people on the Ad's wagon.

Town needs to concentrate their efforts in bringing one of these three wagons to lynch, so lets talk about these wagons unless there's compelling evidence to do otherwise.

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin's lynch perference chart:

Ghostlin: Milkshake, SOO
Selkies: No Milkshake (unless Orc agrees to it, then reluctant)
GCBC: Milkshake, SOO
MM: pefers Omen over Milkshake, no Ad
Amrun: Ad, no SOO
Nero: Milk

Milk: For lynch: 3, absolutely not: 1, Currently on Wagon: 1 (net votes if everyone votes Milk: 5)
SOO: For lynch: 3, absolutely not: 1, Currently on Wagon: 1 (net votes if everyone votes SOO: 5)
Ad: For lynch: 1, absolutely not: 1, Currently on Wagon: 1 (net votes if everyone votes Ad: 3)

*These numbers presume that no one currently on the wagon jumps off. They're not perfect.

This is my first time doing this, so sue me.

This is just here to document stances and to see which direction town is going. This is a paraphrase of the last few posts. If I've missed anything, let me know.

[Ghostlin]

Saying "I'm a power role" is not enough. ThAdmiral, we absolutely need information about you, so that we can track you during the night and determine whether your claim was a lie. And then if it was a lie, lynch you.

You want this? Pay for admission (L-1). And how would you know, or why would you assume that Town has a tracking role?

[Ghostlin]

And saying that I'm playing stupid because I assumed that everyone who dream-walks is town is a pretty shitty to say

It's OK, he's using crap setup speculation for this. I only managed to get Lord to Chaos before I nearly died of fucking boredom.

You should totally give it another try. I stopped reading at Lord of Chaos for 2 years, then picked it back up and it was so worth it. It starts getting better around book 8.

I can and will confirm that the 'dangers of the dream realm' (this IS NOT what it says in my role PM) is very narrowly described with no characters in my role PM.

[Ghostlin]

but I still don't get his what his beef with Ghost is

Currently I believe it's because he's considered my poorly executed bread crumbs scummy, and does not believe that Town would not use obvious breadcrumbs, that I used the crumbs as an elaborate lure to try to draw out the dream walking PRs.

I would like the Town to note that no other PRs were drawn out except for SOO's, which he soft claimed in thread while he was accusing me of role fishing.

In other words, he responded to someone who he thought was a fucking role fisher by giving the role fisher the information they were supposedly looking for.

This is either insane troll logic or scum logic to try to get you all to lynch me today.

[Ghostlin]

I'm not going to fullclaim, so either lynch me or don't. Getting me to L-1 will be pointless.

This tends to be a Town reaction. I'd rather not lynch Ad today.

[Ghostlin]

I know nothing of the series Swords

Then upon what were you basing your supposition that all dreamwalkers are town? There is really no reason to think this.

Discounting flavour as something that could influence how roles work: Masons are modconfirmed to each other in their role PMs, so I'm thinking dreamwalkers are more like neighbourisers, and the one time I played with a neighbouriser, he neigbourised scum.

Counting flavour: Does anyone think "the dangers of the dream realm" could refer to anything other than its inhabitants? The Forsaken were dreamwalkers. It stands to reason that scum could easily have access to the dream.

Swords is

so

not scum.

On what basis do you form your last sentence? Here, let me diagram your post for you: Questioning MM (this is fine, and actually could tell us a lot about her, it's a strange assumption I admit and she could be using a false verification gambit).

Setup speculation (which is crummy. And yes, depending on the mechanics the mod has set up, the "dangers of the dream realm," as I put it, could mean mod events, or the fact that the Forsaken walk there, or BOTH. Or it could be flavor. That piece of the post is pointless, because I have the fucking role PM and I don't know what it sodding means.).

And then the declaration that Swords isn't scum without reasoning.

[Ghostlin]

gut is nice and all, but it's not really something you can prove or substantiate in thread.

I'm the first one to agree with you on this point. However, most mafia players that I've seen recently are strong, strong believers in voting with the gut.

I'm all about non-gut information. That said, literally the only piece of non-gut information we have to go on right now is MattP's VT claim.

So until we get more information, gut reads are all I've got. And although I like you as a player, Ghostlin, I think you're scum this game!

---

Speaking of non-gut information, I did notice that this setup has day actions! Interesting, yes? I like day actions. I'm looking forward to seeing some day actions and resultant information.

I'll high light the problems with this post, SOO. The thing I'm most concerned with. Tell me if you have the same concerns I do.

[Ghostlin]

Also, before you go, 'oh my god, this is your fault, Ghostlin', this is Milk trying to root out day actions.

[Ghostlin]

Unvote. Vote: Milk

because of the intense feeling that SOO and I are not going to work out our differences, and not lynching sucks ass.

[Ghostlin]

My bad, I forgot that saying something positive is the biggest scum tell ever in this meta.

I'm Siuan Sanche. I have passive ability pertaining to one power that affects my other abilities. But I don't have any other abilities.

Ms Marangal is scum, I am not.

It's like I've experienced an acid trip of claiminess...

[Ghostlin]

Although I'm not sure how lynching you would associate us.

It wouldn't -- but if

you

flipped scum, anyone who notices that word "backstab" would paint

me

as scum by association with you.

You've been pretty devil-may-care about appearances up until now.

^This. In fact, the word 'back stab' does imply connections to you to, but you went and poked it, in an attempt to distance yourself from shake.

[Ghostlin]

Iecerint did hammer, btw, from my count. The unvotes came from the MM side of the house. Which, now in Twilight retrospect, MM seems a much better play later in the day than that slot did before. There's a lot of things that clanged, not only L-3; but proposing lynches that wouldn't fly near deadline, particularly after the skepticism that #737 shows.

It reads as scum sweating and doing anything not to be lynched rather than finding the most effective lynch for Town. I still like Beliscum for his entire play today, and if Milk flips scum, I might entertain the idea of a scum slip for the first time in my life.