Newbie 1381 Oakhaven is Overrun Game Over

[Tamuz]

Gen_Wolf, what do you think of this post?

I have to agree that is was better to have a lynch then a no lynch, but it's sad we lynched a pr off.

Also HoneyyyyyyyBeeeeeee; I'll avenge you!

@Talah:

May I ask why you singled out Hyperion for that question with the HB kill, but not anyone else?

jmo, what did you and Mala talk about N0?

TSP, what do you think of this pair of posts?

That's because this is what's called the Random Voting Stage, as it was mentioned before.

It helps break the ice,

but leaves scum time to settle in and crack jokes.

Overall RVS doesn't help town because generally, town isn't scumhunting in RVS.

VOTE: honey bee
I don't like bees.

This town has frustratingly bad with its one weapon, NS told me this was a fun read in the replacement thread, but boy I'd rather watch a plane crash. Anyways, the numbers, my mind and my gut all agree on one slot as clear scum. A powerful case will have to be made to change my mind.

[Tamuz]

Plus. Why did you go as far to say "what did you and mala discuss pregame, instead of saying you suspect is as partners? Where is your case in who you're positive is scum? You've come into the game and painted me and mala as scummy without saying much more than that.

If you're a 1 shot bullet proof, now would be the time to claim.

How would this benefit the town?

[Tamuz]

I was going to respond telling you to wait for people to respond to me before trying to get me to empty the chambers, then I surfed away, came back and the quote stuck but the text didn't.

What is the value of a semi-confirmed town when it can just as easily be mafia /safely/ fake claiming?
Maybe its from sleeping in, but I only see a BP claim benefiting mafia.

[Tamuz]

Waiting for replacement to share thoughts

No. We don't know how long it will take for talah's replacement. Talk now.

[Tamuz]

Be careful with your votes guys

This is LyLo, i.e. if we lynch a Townie now, we lose
So let's calm down a bit, have everyone talk and say what they think

Waiting for replacement to share thoughts

Urging you to talk is not rushing.

I could pretend to be helpful and insist that people don't vote early in LyLo, but thats just trying to look townie while really not introducing any helpful information. Nobody is stupid here, Nobody is actually new here, there is not going to be a quicklynch.

Why do you think Grey is scummy?

What do you think about Talah's slot?

How can you say someone is only NULLscum when you say they are DEFINITELY not town? If they are clearly not town they should be scumscum, nothing null about it.

Could you answer my question about jmo's pair of posts and jmo's general approach to attacking people based on what happened during 'rvs' this game?

[Tamuz]

Nice stunt JMO.

Pope, now you see why JMO is scummy and you accuse me of being scum, idiot.

jmo is bussing TIP.

Now please answer my question to you in the first post of today.

preview is showing GiF posts, uh oh...

[Tamuz]

i presume you are refering to this part I 'have to agree that is was better to have a lynch then a no lynch, but it's sad we lynched a pr off. '?

Gen_Wolf, what do you think of this post?

I have to agree that is was better to have a lynch then a no lynch, but it's sad we lynched a pr off.

Also HoneyyyyyyyBeeeeeee; I'll avenge you!

@Talah:

May I ask why you singled out Hyperion for that question with the HB kill, but not anyone else?

[Tamuz]

I disagree. I personally feel a no lynch would be better but I have been shunned upon lately. I disagree with the logic.

the question seems genuine and the part in the middle is pure fluff filling the post?

vote jmo.

you should have been lynched d1

mmm. I don't get how every single person in the game missed a giant scum tell.

Addressing the night kill either to lament/hedge a power role's death extending to promise of vengeance is a slam dunk tell.

jom, my point about you talking about rvs is that you say,

RVS is better for scum, and scum tend to do X during it

and earlier you did X. Its either an insane coincidence or the reflection of an inability to shift thought origins from you.

Couple that with how you never (until TIP) make a case on anyone this game that isn't OMGUS, your play is awfully scummy. You spend the whole game saying nothing, getting into pissing contests, spamming and only actually responding to the game in reaction. If someone says something about you, you are

there

. Otherwise you don't introduce anything new to the game. You are reactive and self-centered.

That being said, the numbers don't agree with me that you are scum, but looking at the interactions of you and mala throughout the game, I am inclined to believe you are her partner. She spends much of the game silently voting you and rebuffing your shit play while being equally non-committal and letting this town witch-hunt the hell out of each other until they finally lynch lurkers both days. Its stupid.

Oh and you're going 120mph to bus TIP. Its a good play. TIP's lynch vote yesterday was bad, but it allows for his partner to bus him hard and the down goes into lylo/mylo with very little info and a bunch of flack flying around.

General play from Mala, TIP's hammer, the massive scumtell from mala and the numbers all make me like him for today. I do think jmo is the partner, but I'm less certain.


It really scares me that any of you actually want to vote before N64 gets here and catches up rather than prodding and presenting cases. Plus I haven't even posted the numbers yet

[Tamuz]

What mala scumtell?

Comment interaction with regards to the nightkill.

rvs does let scum settle in, but i still do it. always have.

And crack jokes?
And attacking Thane for not taking part in it.
and attacking based on this:

It just sounded like you were serious bout your vote. Unlike the rest of us.

You defend your rvs actions and demonize's others so vehemently. I believe Beli would say something like: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Can you two either say something useful or shut up? Your spam is really annoying and useless. I get that you are trying to distance and bus and manufacture and argument, but could you actually have some arguments instead of sounding like a stereotypical brother and sister in the back of the van in a 1980s cliche vacation movie?

[Tamuz]

So now that you two are done with your distancing pissing at each other would you care to actually make constructive posts about

why

you feel the way you feel?

[Tamuz]

GIF was killed. Look at who GIF suspected.

This is wifom and terrible, like so many of your posts.

Why do you think GIF's scumdar is good here?
how is GIF being dead relevant to the accuracy of his scumdar?

There are other dead people, want to appeal to them?

[Tamuz]

OK seriously. The manner in which you two are posting (10s of useless 1-liners) is ruining this game. I am on the verge of asking to replace out because of your posting style.

Could you please mature up and actually play mafia instead of the shit that you guys are doing. This is a game for fun and the amount of multi-posting is completely ruining this game.

Thank you.

[Tamuz]

Then fucking replace out; it's better for Town to have a committed person to play

Fuck you.
I'm clearly committed, I just don't want 3 pages where 78% of the posts are one liners with no content.

Grow the fuck up. Realize you're playing with humans in FORUM mafia and we want real posts not this shit 1-liner 'i'm not scum' -- 'i'm not either' back and forth shit.

Go play chat if you want to play like you are. I will not play with you or jmo ever again and I will move to rescind IC status from either of you after this game. There is nothing positive the way you have acted in this game can introduce to a newbie. The way you are playing is destroying any enjoyability this game could have. If you continue as you are, I will not respond to you. You aren't reading anyone anyways with you desire to spam multi-posts, so it'll be no different but I won't shit-post 5 posts in a row.


The game numbers, that I have talked about.

Like I said everything, numbers logic and gut agree TIP are scum. JMO is being a king douche, but the numbers don't think he is scum.

Name	ST	MT	MS	SS	Posts
Greywing	8	3	6	1	40
N64Lord luigilewis889 talah	6	4	5	3	211
guyinfreezer mothrax	2	5	7	9	57
honey bee	1	8	9	9	36
jmo16mla	5	2	8	5	200
malakittens theirishpope	9	1	4	4	109
thanearvan gen_wolf	4	6	2	9	73
tybalt	3	7	3	9	15
uoyeluri hyperion fropome tamuz	7	9	1	2	45

first letter:
S= strongly
M= mostly
second letter:
S=scummy
t= towny



More important numbers:

Code: Select all

uoyeluri hyperion fropome tamuz       0.6756162271716952
thanearvan gen_wolf     0.6728301095095651
N64Lord luigilewis889 talah    0.6171990188595428
guyinfreezer mothrax    	0.8751339373427004
malakittens theirishpope    0.6450976867731328
jmo16mla    0.9180717607909971

Higher is townier

[Tamuz]

You would have a hell of a time convincing me that TIP is not scum.

Emotionally I would love to vote JMO, but the numbers rating him so townly gives me massive pause, but I can't say I'm considering voting him with TIP still alive. I hate JMO's post. I hate how he's played. I hate basically everything about him this game, and I recognize that this clouds me and I think he is scum especially in regards to mala's posts.

But I intend to vote TIP today and only TIP.

Numbers. The bottom code part: higher number = more town via maxent.

The top table is ranks (1-9) for each person. So Each post is classified as (strongly/mostly) (scummy/townie) then proportions of these classifications are calculated for each player, and then it is ranked.
1 means that the value is the greatest in that column, 9 means that it is the least.

Frex Honeybee's 1889 means that her Strongly Townie proportion was the greatest in the game, her mostly towny and scummy proportions were second smallest in the game and that she had the smallest proportion of strongly scummy posts in the game. Is that clearer?

I can go deeper, but that generally becomes distracting. This is a work in progress, and I know this and generally full descriptions result in people attacking me for 'not scumhunting' :rolleyes:. But I'm willing to go further if need be

The results at the bottom in /code/ uses these and a few other categories to judge roles.

[Tamuz]

You do realize that hyperion slots number would be nearly .466 if he had a greater number of posts(with the same strongly scummy to strongly town ratio)

Yes I realize the number of posts effects things and I have measures to look at proportion and total.

Tamuz and you whining about playstyles is helping Newbies? How?
And Mafia is definitely not about numbers; if that was the case, we would just lynch randomly and hope for the best

In any case, if I understood your magic scumfinding numbers correctly, talah is the scummiest

Are you ever going to add anything to the game, or would you like to continue throwing flack at this game and hope that being a big enough pain in the ass that whatever you bait out of me can be turned into a scum argument?
Lets see you've
1. Inherited a slot with a gimme scumtell.
2. Inherited a slot that did not take stances on people and simply poked until they could jump on a wagon in traditional scum safe-spots.
3. Hammered an unclaimed person quote- without reading the entire thread -endquote
4. Have presented 0 concrete thoughts today. Your two 'reads' are null and 'nullscum' on someone 'who is definitely not town'.
5. When asked to provide anything else you deflect and shitpost with 26 1-line posts over 3 pages.

Okay, so, where does how I post, make me scum or not? If I post 1 liners as I think of things, I'm going to god damn post them. I'm not going to sit and wait for someone else to post just so thank don't triple post. That would be the dumbest thing ever.

So my question for you gen, what over the last four pages, makes me and/or tip scum?

TBH how you are posting probably is probably screwing the numbers over due to the volume aspect and the idea that short posts can't contain enough information to differentiate one way or the other.

And the way you are posting is detrimental to the town. You aren't posting 1-liners as you think of things, because there clearly isn't thought of content in your posts.

If your post isn't worth 5 minutes for you to sit down and actually flesh out a full idea and the support for it, the reasoning around it and the implications of it then the post isn't worth writing.

[Tamuz]

Well, that makes sense
I know people have said that jmo is scummy, but his ISO doesn't jump out at me. I won't be voting him anytime soon.
Tamuz is kind of null right now, but I don't know how to feel of this last post, because he is rushing
Gen_Wolf is nullscum, he's definitely not Town, and that's why I want to see the replacement
Popcorn to Tamuz; reads, if you would

Thank you for taking this opportunity to actually post content and not trying to bait a larger discussion of how much you are posting without ever actually adding anything to the game.

Heaven forbid I try to ask you to post about the game and stop posting in a manner that is detrimental and distracting to the game.

We will not find the scum because you won't work with the town at all.

You have plenty of opportunity to scumhunt and instead you have spent that railing against a, at first, kind request that you stop spamming.

Gen, N64. I am ready to vote TIP, this is going nowhere. If either of you have lines of discussion I am happy to talk with you about them.

[Tamuz]

On Mala:
Generally she looks like she was active lurking all game. There is sparse commentary, but she hardly pushes and she rarely addresses the wagons. N64 has covered this so I'll only dupe a little

When she makes an assertion its through some really bad appeal, ie:

Sorry it's a touchy subject for me because I have recently had two different games where

two different scum people accused me of faking V/LA

, but I have also had another game where a town accused me of not being able to get to my computer right away after I posted and accused me of dodging. >.>

as well as the mysterious appeal to lolsecrettowntell on Hyperion. These are smokescreen assertions that someone is scum/town. They can't be refuted, but they are used to push an alignment at a person. This allows her to take a stance, but she can't be scrutinized for the reasoning of these stances. Reasoning that can't be discussed is very nasty for the town.

Do a regex search for 'null ?tell' and then 'scum ?tell' in her posts (or just search 'null tell' and 'scum tell'. Mala has a penchant for saying that actions don't matter, but she will not say that something is scummy, or something is towny. Hide in the middle!

This is her 43rd post:

but I haven't had time to make a clear case.

She hasn't made a clear case for 43 posts and still does not have time to make one. Am I beating this dead horse enough? Mala does not make cases, she'll list the town as towny/scummy, but gives 0 reasoning.

Then we get to this tell:

I have to agree that is was better to have a lynch then a no lynch, but it's sad we lynched a pr off.

Also HoneyyyyyyyBeeeeeee; I'll avenge you!

Lamenting a lynch is overcompensating scum trying to appear towny. That and the promise to 'avenge' the night kill is another overcompensation to appear towny (that townies actually never does).

Hey Guys, I Swear I Am Town And Will Work To Help My Town Teammates

Lets also drop this gen where she explains why HB was killed:

HB was super town and usually super town are first to go because they can't be pushed as a mislynch and they lead lynches.

Explicit statements of why the NK target was NK'ed are scummy.

Then we get to TIP:

Whow whow whow, good thing I checked in but we shouldn't put anyone at L-1 right now

Read about 5 pages, and checked the day 1 lynch and HOLY SHIT a hammer without a claim is a policy lynch, no exceptions
VOTE: Grey

Be careful with your votes guys

Lets put these posts next to each other. Urges caution to everyone else. Doesn't do it himself. We all know this is bad, but I'm really confused why nobody except jmo even mentioned that he hammered without a claim without reading more than 5 pages. He speaks the town line (be cautious with your vote) and then ACTS in complete opposition to that line.

Now today uggh. I'm not pulling posts. Just read it. There is no content there, its postbarfspam. Questions put to him, or discussion involving him that include scumhunting are ignored, but he'll respond vehemently to 'off-topic' issues like his god-given right to shitpost instead of scumhunt. This is simply a distraction. It gives him a strawman to beat and assault and make it look like he is doing something productive for the game, when in reality he has done 0 scumhunting.
Like Mala TIP has made weak assertions ("Tamuz is nulltown, Gen is nullscum"-- and there's that null word again that can be flung out without explanation) but he has put down nothing explaining why he holds these assertions and why someone appears town or appears scum.

0 proactive action to find scum, the play is reactionary and involves throwing out flack, but no certainly no scumhunting.


Pedit, TP posted:
You spent 10 minutes writing a post whining about me not wanting you to triple post and spampost. Over 150 words of not scumhunting with relevance only to a strawman that you will fight to the death, but you won't say a word relevant to who you think is scum and why.

Nice.

[Tamuz]

Didn't know that not being sure on reads means I'm scum geez
I replaced in
Not scumhunting? My playstyle, my reaction gathering works all the time; the problem is people won't listen to me

I know you are purposefully being obtuse.

You have not given any reasoning for any read. Pretty much everyone has asked you for reasons and you never provide any. Instead you keep playing this appeal to emotion 'poor me cards'.

poor me, nobody listens to me. poor me, my playstyle is being encroached on. poor me, people want me to give opinions and explain why I have them. Why can't they just let me play mafia my way, by not playing and acting like its an aol chatroom?
Poor me.

Post your reasoning.

[Tamuz]

Wow! Great detail there TIP!
Way to take really take a stance on everyone and provide solid explanations. I loved the part where you didn't mention any non-sequitors and other games and really hammered down details. That was a great and informative post!

To details. You and jmo is TvT. You and I are TvT. N64 feels town and Gen_Wolf has been downgraded to null.

Boy, you stuck your neck out and said something with that post.

Die cis scum.

[Tamuz]

quickpost if I'm racing the lock. jmo, who I'd think his partner is?

With his previous day I would imagine that the bus is the way to go. Limp on if there is any suspicion on TIP, then go hard once it looks like that is where the lynch will be. This is all conditional mental gymnastics, but the way N64 came onto TIP matches what I think would happen.

[Tamuz]

Longer post, I see now that wasn't lynch:

1. If TIP is town I am not scum. This is now proven.

You will see there is no counterclaim, so you can wait until the remaining people talk (Tamuz, N64, and Gen) and then please please please lynch scum?

Unfortunately your claim means nothing. If you were mafia you would know BP is safe to claim. This claim amounts to VT.

VOTE: UNVOTE:

Didn't see this at first glance, so now this gets interesting. Are you not ok with TIP being lynch jmo, or are you not ok with him being lynched yet?
Could you explain whichever one you answer?

Finally the concern about quickhammering, in a game where all players have a degree of neutral behavior, would only be an isue if scum expected town to act randomly, forcing a situation where all 3 town would have to vote before the scum laid their votes, but painting that as anti-town behavior.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying here. What is the situation where all 3 town have to vote before the scum vote? Quickhammer only needs one towny vote on another town. Could you rephrase this for me?

Guys, at some point we are going to have to lynch, I hate losing so I hope you are right but I think Tamuz has the most compelling case. I am willing to vote TiP today, lets hope you right.

What? You hope TIP is right about his claim?
This sits really terribly.

It is a little bit of an omgus, heres for trying to bus me Pope, but sorry,

this bus is full, muddafuka

This sits even worse.

[Tamuz]

Now

that post

is goading. Jmo unvoted for a reason. I would like to hear his thoughts.

Are we already posturing for tomorrow N64Lord? If so, then it looks like TIP is scum.

Could you sum up my N64Lord as scum pitch? If its just the , 'I think TIP's partner is someone weakly bussing him' in 913, thats pretty silly.

Could you rephrase your bit that I quoted in 914?

[Tamuz]

To flesh out completely the things that sit terribly, replacing pronouns and references:

Guys, at some point we are going to have to lynch, I hate losing so I hope [TIP is] right (about his alignment) but I think Tamuz has the most compelling case (against TIP). I am willing to vote TIP today, lets hope (Tamuz ?) is right.

There is a direct contradiction here. You can't have both hopes and be consistent. Maybe I'm resolving pronouns poorly, but there is direct contradiction here.

It is a little bit of an omgus, heres for trying to bus me Pope, but sorry

This obviously just bothers me because bussing is only scum on scum.
If Gen is explicitly stating that Pope tried that says:
1. Pope is scum
2. Gen is scum
3. Pope tried to lynch Gen to improve his towncred

Thats wonky as shit.

[Tamuz]

jmo. I do not think you are scum.
If you don't think I am scum, I think the better play is to lynch from [Gen_wolf, N64] today. I can go through the whole reasoning, but you should be able to work through the logic, given our conditionally innocence.

It is awful annoying that there is a post flurry that spawns questions and then nobody answers any of them or tries to introduce new thoughts (outside of we two) here, but what can you do.

I would like to hear Gen answer the questions pointed to him. I would like N64 to rephrase the thing I don't understand... or at least make an effort to make me understand it. I'd also like TIP to tell me who he thinks the two scum are and at least 2 sentences per person of why.

If I'm lucky I get 1/3, but they'd all be nice.


(of course there is always a possibility that TIP is town and jmo or I are mafia and we're just being cocky assholes, but I shudder to think anyone believes this.)

[Tamuz]

We're waiting, gen & N64

TIP passed a stupidtest, since townTIP has to assume jmo and I are town as does scumTIP. TIP, do you have a preference who of gen and N64 gets lynched today?

[Tamuz]

Mk. To add to the above post. Either both scum are on the wagon right now.
One scum is BEING waggoned and the other is voting him.
One scum is being waggoned, and the other scum is not voting him.

I still want to go with TIP an gen scum team. The whole game sets them up as scum together. Gen was dropping town tells, or what I thought could have been town tells earlier. But he has since ignored my questions multiple times. Leading me to believe that he isn't actually reading the game(scum) and is just posting about current discussion.

Sorry roadtripped yesterday then was drunk last night, will go back and look over it.

for now

unvote

How long does it take for you to respond to 2-4 questions?

[Tamuz]

Stupid test? Is that supposed to be good?
Either are alright. Slight preference to Gen, I'd say. He's been here for longer.

TownTIP has to assume jmo and I are town as does scumTIP.

If you had said you suspected either jmo or I to be scum you are almost assuredly mafia. Very simple check to pass, but sometime the stupidest things are what make people stumble.

Is that clear?

[Tamuz]

No, jmo, N64 made a completely novel and helpful post. That absolutely wasn't 300 words with 0 information in it. No sirree!

[Tamuz]

For quick reference:
N64:

Finally the concern about quickhammering, in a game where all players have a degree of neutral behavior, would only be an isue if scum expected town to act randomly, forcing a situation where all 3 town would have to vote before the scum laid their votes, but painting that as anti-town behavior.

1. What is the situation where all 3 town have to vote before the scum vote?
2. Could you rephrase this for me?
3. Are we already posturing for tomorrow N64Lord?
4. Could you sum up my N64Lord as scum pitch?
5. Could you rephrase your bit that I quoted in 914?

Gen_wolf:

Guys, at some point we are going to have to lynch, I hate losing so I hope you are right but I think Tamuz has the most compelling case. I am willing to vote TiP today, lets hope you right.

1. What?
2. You hope TIP is right about his claim?

1. So my question for you gen, what over the last four pages, makes me and/or tip scum?
2. Also, what made you vote me when I was voting for TIP?
3. Why dd you unvote if he was in no danger of being quick hammered?
4. Do you think TIP is now town?

Oaks im going to be v/la till Sunday. Apologies but we have 8 days so no need to panic. Thanks

Hard post to write or something? Enjoy your weekend!

N64- Your attack looks like a complete deflection here, especially going to a Hyperion ISO. Some of your 'points' are completely contrived and cherry picked as well, frex:

Looking at nightkills is WIFOM and generally doesn't help town, but I'm going to waste your time with it for as long as I can get away with.

If you are going to call out a noise posting, please put it in perspective. Is this an isolated low-meaning post or part of a pattern of fluff that are used to avoid actually talking about the game? If not, what is your point? (you have no point).

On to your 'point' on me. Lets see, you ISO me and all you got was one post to call scummy? Tough life.

He's letting people see that he knows TIP is mafia here....but the motive of this post is too buddy jmo

I don't quite see where there is any assertion that I know TIP is mafia. And the motive? Enjoy pushing things into holes where they don't belong much.
The points of this post are to :
1. Shift thought to who of Gen_wolf and N64 is scum.
2. Get you to answer questions
Over half the post is concerned with questions and lack of action. 1/4 of the post is an aside. So how is the whole motive buddying? You're reaching and twisting reality to an interpretation, not letting reality dictate the interpretation.

and that apperently includes giving TIP a chance to prove being town. He calls it the stupidtest, and it's done nothing to give TIP a chance to make a town post, instead it lets him claim"voting me or jmo is a scum action" He's buddied with jmo, kept his ability to stand on scum TIP, and now he's going to go knock on both my and gen_wolf's doors(regardless of TIP definitely only having one partner), and all for jmo's "benefit".

You, TIP, jmo and I have all stated that TIP cannot, despite any alignment, publicly hold that jmo or I are scum. One step further TownTIP KNOWS jmo and I are townies and KNOWS you and gen are scum. Expression of anything else can only indicate ScumTIP.
When 4/5 people in the game have said most or all of this logic, why do you find it scummy when I do it?

Why should I not look at you and gen? I'm sufficiently convinced that jmo is not scum, that means there must be at least one scum in the set [Gen,N64] and 2 in the set [TIP,Gen,N64].

I'm not a marionette. Stop trying to talk for me.

[Tamuz]

I posted an ISO on the slot you replaced, had to live with jmo and tamuz, "agreeing" with me by jmo's vote and tamuz ISO, and when I voted you

Wait....

Are you literally asserting the JMO and I limped on to YOUR idea that TIP was scum?

Holeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee shit if that is what this is asserting.

Does anyone want a full voting record by slot, or a time-sorted record? I'm doing work on automated production and if someone thinks it would help I'll burn up the code to produce these sequences.

[Tamuz]

So it is generally accepted that the L-2 vote is scummy, so lets look at L-2 votes (and L-1 votes because why not). Obviously I won't count today.

Slot	L-2	L-1	Hammer
jmo	0	1	0
N64lord	9	1	0
tybalt	0	0	0
Tamuz	1	1	0
TheIrishPope	0	0	1
Greywing	0	0	1
Honey Bee	1	0	0
mothrax	2	0	0
Gen_wolf	2	0	0

Presented without analysis.

My work if you want to track the votes yourself.

Spoiler: Work

Code: Select all

jmo16mla votes Honey bee. Votes change: 0 to 1
Malakittens&TheIrishPope vote jmo16mla. Votes change: 0 to 1
Greywing votes Tamuz&Hyperion&Fropome&uoyeluri. Votes change: 0 to 1
mothrax&GuyInFreezer vote tybalt. Votes change: 0 to 1
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote Greywing. Votes change: 0 to 1
Greywing votes Malakittens&TheIrishPope. Votes change: 0 to 1
jmo16mla votes Greywing. Votes change: 1 to 2
Honey bee votes Greywing. Votes change: 2 to 3
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord unvote
Tamuz&Hyperion&Fropome&uoyeluri vote mothrax&GuyInFreezer. Votes change: 0 to 1
tybalt votes ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf. Votes change: 0 to 1
Malakittens&TheIrishPope unvote
mothrax&GuyInFreezer vote Greywing. Votes change: 2 to 3
jmo16mla votes ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf. Votes change: 1 to 2
Greywing votes Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord. Votes change: 0 to 1
Malakittens&TheIrishPope vote tybalt. Votes change: 0 to 1
Honey bee votes tybalt. Votes change: 1 to 2
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf. Votes change: 2 to 3
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf vote Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord. Votes change: 1 to 2
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote Greywing. Votes change: 2 to 3
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote Malakittens&TheIrishPope. Votes change: 0 to 1
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote jmo16mla. Votes change: 0 to 1
Tamuz&Hyperion&Fropome&uoyeluri unvote
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord unvote
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote Greywing. Votes change: 2 to 3
Greywing votes Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord. Votes change: 1 to 2
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf. Votes change: 2 to 3
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord unvote
tybalt votes jmo16mla. Votes change: 0 to 1
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote Greywing. Votes change: 2 to 3
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf unvote
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf vote jmo16mla. Votes change: 1 to 2
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord unvote
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote jmo16mla. Votes change: 2 to 3
tybalt votes Greywing. Votes change: 2 to 3
jmo16mla votes Malakittens&TheIrishPope. Votes change: 0 to 1
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote tybalt. Votes change: 2 to 3
mothrax&GuyInFreezer vote jmo16mla. Votes change: 2 to 3
jmo16mla votes mothrax&GuyInFreezer. Votes change: 0 to 1
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote jmo16mla. Votes change: 2 to 3
Greywing votes mothrax&GuyInFreezer. Votes change: 1 to 2
Tamuz&Hyperion&Fropome&uoyeluri vote jmo16mla. Votes change: 3 to 4
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord. Votes change: 0 to 1
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote tybalt. Votes change: 2 to 3
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf unvote
jmo16mla votes tybalt. Votes change: 3 to 4
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf vote jmo16mla. Votes change: 2 to 3
Greywing votes tybalt. Votes change: 4 to 5

tybalt has been lynched

Lynch Vote Count:
tybalt	-	jmo16mla,Honey bee,Greywing,Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord,Malakittens&TheIrishPope	Total: 5
Honey bee	-		Total: 0
Greywing	-	tybalt,Honey bee	Total: 2
Tamuz&Hyperion&Fropome&uoyeluri	-		Total: 0
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf	-		Total: 0
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord	-	Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord	Total: 1
mothrax&GuyInFreezer	-	jmo16mla,Greywing	Total: 2
Malakittens&TheIrishPope	-		Total: 0
jmo16mla	-	Tamuz&Hyperion&Fropome&uoyeluri,ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf,mothrax&GuyInFreezer	Total: 3

Greywing votes Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord. Votes change: 0 to 1
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf vote Greywing. Votes change: 0 to 1
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote Greywing. Votes change: 1 to 2
jmo16mla votes mothrax&GuyInFreezer. Votes change: 0 to 1
Greywing votes mothrax&GuyInFreezer. Votes change: 1 to 2
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf vote mothrax&GuyInFreezer. Votes change: 2 to 3
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf. Votes change: 0 to 1
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote Greywing. Votes change: 0 to 1
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf unvote
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf vote Greywing. Votes change: 1 to 2
Tamuz&Hyperion&Fropome&uoyeluri vote Greywing. Votes change: 2 to 3
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord unvote
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote Tamuz&Hyperion&Fropome&uoyeluri. Votes change: 0 to 1
jmo16mla votes Tamuz&Hyperion&Fropome&uoyeluri. Votes change: 1 to 2
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote Greywing. Votes change: 2 to 3
Malakittens&TheIrishPope vote Greywing. Votes change: 3 to 4

Greywing has been lynched

Lynch Vote Count:
Greywing	-	Tamuz&Hyperion&Fropome&uoyeluri,ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf,Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord,Malakittens&TheIrishPope	Total: 4
Tamuz&Hyperion&Fropome&uoyeluri	-	jmo16mla	Total: 1
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf	-		Total: 0
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord	-		Total: 0
mothrax&GuyInFreezer	-	Greywing	Total: 1

Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote jmo16mla. Votes change: 0 to 1
jmo16mla votes Malakittens&TheIrishPope. Votes change: 0 to 1
jmo16mla unvotes
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf vote jmo16mla. Votes change: 1 to 2
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf unvote
jmo16mla unvotes
Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord vote Malakittens&TheIrishPope. Votes change: 0 to 1
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf vote Malakittens&TheIrishPope. Votes change: 1 to 2
ThaneArvan&Gen_Wolf unvote

Vote Count:
jmo16mla	-		Total: 0
Malakittens&TheIrishPope	-	Luigilewis889&talah&N64Lord	Total: 1

[Tamuz]

Your replace in where you hammered without reading more than 5 pages of the thread?

All shall be accounted for. That being said its something like 7-8 in SAfrica so we should get

something

soon, but I'm not holding my breath for it to be anything interesting.

[Tamuz]

To find mafia, to not be limited by my crappy mind and pattern recognition, to process more data than I can reliably hold at a time.

from elsewhere

I trust machine learning better than my failed gestalt. I tunnel and become a bad investigator as I'm sure [everyone does].
[line][/line]
The lynch rate when I played was very close to chance, and I know from experience I don't really outperform it. [...] humans SUCK at fair pattern evaluation. We're amazing at finding patterns, but we suck at differentiating patterns from a gestalt and once we've made up our mind we don't like changing it. Machine learning does not have these shortcomings and, unlike me, my computer doesn't sleep(and can process 300 posts in 1s).

[Tamuz]

For irony:

You are fabricating ideas of your own. You expect people to follow your ideas and fit into your perspectives. You want them to be you. That's not good. Mafia is not a game of individuals. Mafia is a game of many people. With that being said, you have to respect there are different playstyles and that not everyone thinks and acts like you. They are not you. You are you. You have to leave your stubbornness at the door if you want to enter. You can't waltz in, set ideas on the table and expect-no, demand- people to do what you say.

Then again, you aren't original.

scummy, gut, townie, scumdar. All of these words are buzzwords with no perspective to truth values.
At least with machine learning I know the pattern is real and is based on true data. A 'gut feeling' is not.

---

I don't intend to replace logic, game-knowledge and hypocrisy detection [...]. You trust your gut. I trust statistics. Only one of these is grounded in reality.

Realistically we're going to disagree and only education can even make it possible for us to discuss this disagreement. Its not gonna happen in the time span of this game. So ignore data if you want, but don't urge others to. Also...it still boggles my mind how much people think can't be quantified.

Lower = Scummier, low SS posters (ie people who are dead) have more volitile numbers.

Code: Select all

tybalt	0.6739290585
Honey bee	0.7616532789
Greywing	0.7080042843
uoyeluri Hyperion Fropome Tamuz	0.8380748249
ThaneArvan Gen_Wolf	0.5875254479
N64Lord Luigilewis889 talah	0.7057777549
GuyInFreezer mothrax	0.8897878803
Malakittens TheIrishPope	0.7674508818
jmo16mla	0.8750209462

[Tamuz]

Well I'd honestly hesitate if a person whose alignment I didn't know started throwing out numbers. But you know I'm town and therefor have 0 reason to doctor the numbers, so yes!

I'd prefer to hear from Gen and N64 before doing so, however. Maybe N64 won't give us a passive aggressive

Sorry, I prioritized an out of state concert over a forum game with people whom existential theory dictates may or may not exist.

(guess what, the days of diving rlpeople and interwebs people are over)

and Gen will post rather than apologize and tell us he'll post later, but my hopes are low. They seem to have headed for the hills and avoided talking about that hammer attempt on TIP.

[Tamuz]

I was still emotional. I still wanted his reasons. Do you think voting TIP would get him to actually articulate his thoughts? I don't. Empirical data supports that. Clearly I don't give a fuck about TIP's reasons anymore because of the conditional alignments of us given him or I would still be mocking him for them.

I may harangue and bitch and abuse, but I am not flippant with my vote, I prefer using the threat of voting to get information to actually voting.

[Tamuz]

I'm on tenterhooks.
9:00 AM drearies in Johannesland.

[Tamuz]

Thats a lot of L-2 from N64.

N64's slot, but it was all talah, ofc.

However, if I have missed one please do point me to the post number and I will be happy to answer it.

Did you say this before quoting a post full of questions that you ignored ironically or was that unironically?

You still need to address this post.

However, if you'd like to believe it was a hard post to write, go ahead and add it to those numbers you have made.

It did only take you 6 days with 3 excuses to write a post that ultimately was complaining, hypocrisy and solipsism. So I do believe making a good post was difficult for you, since you made a bad post, lets go to that!

Thats a lot of L-2 from N64. If these numbers are perfect then why do we play the game? It is very easy to go out and throw numbers around, but in instances, like this, numbers cannot always answer your problems Tamuz. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Thank you for the support backing up your assertion. I will give up ever quantifying anything because its possible that the thing quantified is not a good indicator. Also other than the .40% scum or the 2/3 scum numbers numbers are

not

easy to throw around or you would see everyone doing it. Instead its just me and, once upon a time, Adel.

What is frustrating me is this attitude between Tamuz and JMO that they are accepted townies and now we must all adhere to what they say, when they say jump we jump, inevitably we do not know if they are town or scum and thus I think this 'know it all, we are town' attitude they got going is complete bullshit.

We didn't just magic ourselves into 'town-reads'. We legitimately read, poked, prodded and in jmo's case gambitted in order to get ideas of alignment. We're actually scumhunting. If you think poking and prodding is telling you to jump and expecting you to jump (which you don't do) then whatever. You are perfectly welcome to take a tangent that we haven't talked about or directed for information on and scum hunt down that tangent. But really you haven't done that. You limped on to my vitriol of TIP, ignored buttloads of things directed to you and whined that jmo and I are the ones pushing the town.

However, the fact they have now buddied up as 'town buddies' gives an easy opportunity for one of them to be scum and skate home free. Remember this is mafia and anyone could be scum.

Because the vetting process wasn't difficult at all or anything. Remember this is day 3 of mafia and everyone has their own unique probability distribution of who they believe is mafia. Anyone could be scum, but the likelihood of everyone being scum will not be the same.

And to the hypocrisy:

Anyways, I will go back and read over N64, TIP, and JMO and see if anything stands out. However, you already seem very set on lynching me so just to make life easier for all of us I am VT. I feel scum is JMO, TIP, N64. However, this information is useless as if you lynch me the game will end.

You whine so much that there is this town--pair of Tamuz and JMO and then you just try to make a latent partnership with me, lol.

Also how does you claiming VT make anything easier on us?

[Tamuz]

If we got activity from all of our slots it would be faster, but we get afk and avoidance which may or may not be on purpose.

[Tamuz]

Gen. Gen.

[Tamuz]

Because N64 hasn't posting in 3-4 days and has a fair amount of outstanding stuff that he needs to talk on, as does Gen.

Hurrying is not very townie.

[Tamuz]

Generally caught-scum want to speed the day up and cut discussion so that finding scum #2 is harder.

[Tamuz]

You still have added 0 scumhunting to today and now you're trying to goad me into moving and voting more quickly than I am.

[Tamuz]

You did not think about the answer because it does answer it.

Of course I'm just as likely to hold my breath for you to think and put some actual thought into this thread as I am to get real responses from N64/Gen.

[Tamuz]

The calling you a bad player is for me.

The discussion, scum-hunting and caution are for helping the town

[Tamuz]

UNVOTE:

Here?

[Tamuz]

So you and I can't speedhammer, duh?

[Tamuz]

There is a crazy long wifom case to take if you think that you and I are scum, TIP.

MOD: Could you clarify when/if N64 lord would get replaced assuming he doesn't post.
Additionally, what would occur to our deadine in this case?

[Tamuz]

For the first part, congratulations, your English is amazing, here is a gold star I presume you were asking for recognition of your brilliance and you nailed it.

No I'm asking you to explain how you can hold both hopes that my assertion that TIP was scum & the hope that TIP was not lying with his claim at the same time.

As for the 2nd part. Pope did try bus me? How does that make me scum?

I think you are purposefully misrepping the word bus. To bus is a person of one faction sacrificing someone else from their faction to either individual or faction gain. Townies can't bus scum, scum can't bus townies. Townies can bus townies, but usually there's something more going on there mechanically, ie masonry.

I did not expect this out of your mouth. Some sense has finally struck JMO. I honestly expected this amazing logic out of Tamuz is mouth. However, Tamuz was very closed to the idea that you were scum. As if he was very happy buddying up with another player who he definitively knew was town. JMO, I am starting to have second thoughts about you now.

Since you couldn't ply me you're trying with jmo & misrepping me to boot!

Anyways, I claimed VT to let you know what position I am, duh.

But you understand this is completely stupid, right? With an uncontested BP claim and a JK dead everyone left is a VT.

VOTE: Gen_Wolf

Now to this trainwreck.

In a lylo as murky as this one, (early d3) then the three town would be forced to vote before either of the scum voted if scum wanted any votes to be in stone, as calling out d2 and d1 be3havior, is actually shaky for all three players, given a combination of activity falloff, circular arguments, and overreadiness to back down.

What the shit does this even mean? I literally can't parse meaning here.

I "see" tamuz as scummy because if either me or gen had a VT role pm, and we beleived the proof on why jmo and tamuz are town(not hammering), then both of us would have no option for the rest of d3 but to tunnel on TIP. You're the one using people as marionettes. This is also the basis of calling you out for knowing TIP is scum.

I don't think you understand, or you are purposefully being dense.

If

TIP is town, and only if, then jmo and I cannot be scum. We don't know that TIP is town, but we know TIP either is town or has to act town. TIP and only TIP must see jmo and I as town. Your note that both you and gen have to tunnel on tip and can't scumhunt the other is a slip.

This insistence that I'm making people dance and forcing you to know that jmo and I are town is just wrong. I've made cases, attacked cases, asked for clarification and you choose to ignore responding without introducing any new information. To put it bluntly you aren't scumhunting.

Just like Gen_Wolf you are free to discuss whatever you want. However you haven't been, you've been hiding away and when you come back you whine about how other people are controlling the game.

[Tamuz]

Can you believe that Gen wolf thinks you and I are scum?

[Tamuz]

whos sucm?

jmo and Tamuz

[Tamuz]

4:08 AM
Wednesday, July 24, 2013 (SAST)
Time in Johannesburg, South Africa

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/die-cis-scum

[Tamuz]

No, I called you a cisgender.

I think jmo's vote is there to get a reaction, like all of his votes today. He has no posted explanation, so I can't really judge reasoning. The closest thing to reasoning is this conditional reasoning of a scum-team with 0 revealed alignments. This is a very bad reason to vote in lylo

I clearly don't like it. I don't see a town win coming from lynching you today regardless of your alignment.

I still think the smarter move is to vote who is more likely to be scum between Gen and N64 (I've clearly leaned to gen) and then suss out the last scum from TIP and N64 tomorrow, but I don't think jmo is scum. He thinks there is at least a real possibility that I'm scum so his line of logic is clearly different.

So really all I can do is leave this post again.

Guys, at some point we are going to have to lynch, I hate losing so I hope you are right but I think Tamuz has the most compelling case. I am willing to vote TiP today, lets hope you right.

It is a little bit of an omgus, heres for trying to bus me Pope, but sorry,

this bus is full, muddafuka

Lets bite this bullet
vote: Irish

Gen thought it was a hammer, read the penultimate and antepenultimate lines.
Gen's reasoning is 'we gotta lynch someone' without ever building a case today on anyone, let alone the person he was lynching.
Gen is confused about his desire, whether my case is correct of TIP's claim. These are in direct contradiction. His 'response' to pointing this out was to quote it and talk about something different.

[Tamuz]

You asshole.

[Tamuz]

That is a blatant positioning post to help a mislynch on me tomorrow. What do you think I'm calling you an asshole for? Like I said, I don't see a town win coming from lynching you today regardless of alignment. If you're town we lose. If you're scum it looks like a townie can be convinced TIP Tamuz scum team is a real thing and you have been working framing posts like the that one to support it. The last one is just beyond stupidly obvious.

I don't care who is more logical. I want to lynch who I think is more likely is scum and I think that is Gen.

[Tamuz]

jmo it might be time to put your cards down.

You've been trawling for reactions all day. What do you really think, what have you learned?

[Tamuz]

?
Can I get a referent to my unwillingness to compromise?

[Tamuz]

I'm voting gen.

[Tamuz]

You're gonna have a rough time on your SAT reading comprehension this way.

[Tamuz]

Your wiki says you are 16. NSATs sure, but big boy SATS/ACTS are around 17

[Tamuz]

jmo is his own agent.

If he wants my opinion he'll ask. I've given reactions and cases as I can.

He also can't hammer someone at one vote.

[Tamuz]

OMGUS!

[Tamuz]

Gen you still have things to address.

However, if I have missed one please do point me to the post number and I will be happy to answer it.

Did you say this before quoting a post full of questions that you ignored ironically or was that unironically?

You still need to address this post.

However, if you'd like to believe it was a hard post to write, go ahead and add it to those numbers you have made.

It did only take you 6 days with 3 excuses to write a post that ultimately was complaining, hypocrisy and solipsism. So I do believe making a good post was difficult for you, since you made a bad post, lets go to that!

Thats a lot of L-2 from N64. If these numbers are perfect then why do we play the game? It is very easy to go out and throw numbers around, but in instances, like this, numbers cannot always answer your problems Tamuz. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Thank you for the support backing up your assertion. I will give up ever quantifying anything because its possible that the thing quantified is not a good indicator. Also other than the .40% scum or the 2/3 scum numbers numbers are

not

easy to throw around or you would see everyone doing it. Instead its just me and, once upon a time, Adel.

What is frustrating me is this attitude between Tamuz and JMO that they are accepted townies and now we must all adhere to what they say, when they say jump we jump, inevitably we do not know if they are town or scum and thus I think this 'know it all, we are town' attitude they got going is complete bullshit.

We didn't just magic ourselves into 'town-reads'. We legitimately read, poked, prodded and in jmo's case gambitted in order to get ideas of alignment. We're actually scumhunting. If you think poking and prodding is telling you to jump and expecting you to jump (which you don't do) then whatever. You are perfectly welcome to take a tangent that we haven't talked about or directed for information on and scum hunt down that tangent. But really you haven't done that. You limped on to my vitriol of TIP, ignored buttloads of things directed to you and whined that jmo and I are the ones pushing the town.

However, the fact they have now buddied up as 'town buddies' gives an easy opportunity for one of them to be scum and skate home free. Remember this is mafia and anyone could be scum.

Because the vetting process wasn't difficult at all or anything. Remember this is day 3 of mafia and everyone has their own unique probability distribution of who they believe is mafia. Anyone could be scum, but the likelihood of everyone being scum will not be the same.

And to the hypocrisy:

Anyways, I will go back and read over N64, TIP, and JMO and see if anything stands out. However, you already seem very set on lynching me so just to make life easier for all of us I am VT. I feel scum is JMO, TIP, N64. However, this information is useless as if you lynch me the game will end.

You whine so much that there is this town--pair of Tamuz and JMO and then you just try to make a latent partnership with me, lol.

Also how does you claiming VT make anything easier on us?

You are encouraged to scumhunt. There is a wealth of info. Will you even try finding scum?

[Tamuz]

This game, lol

[Tamuz]

Whats going on?
I'm voting gen, gen is voting me, jmo and n64 are voting you and you aren't voting anyone.

So we're left waiting to see who slides first.

pedit, lol case and logic ahaha. You haven't discussed cases all game TIP.

[Tamuz]

But you understand this is completely stupid, right? With an uncontested BP claim and a JK dead everyone left is a VT.

So about lying Gen_Wolf, I clearly mention TIPs BP claim.

[Tamuz]

Why would I not believe you are lying? I think you are scum and you just tried to bullshit up this 'a-ha I got you' reasoning that was completely based on an assertion of yours. An assertion I can completely destroy with cold hard history.

But since you're actually here:

Gen you still have things to address.

However, if I have missed one please do point me to the post number and I will be happy to answer it.

Did you say this before quoting a post full of questions that you ignored ironically or was that unironically?

You still need to address this post.

However, if you'd like to believe it was a hard post to write, go ahead and add it to those numbers you have made.

It did only take you 6 days with 3 excuses to write a post that ultimately was complaining, hypocrisy and solipsism. So I do believe making a good post was difficult for you, since you made a bad post, lets go to that!

Thats a lot of L-2 from N64. If these numbers are perfect then why do we play the game? It is very easy to go out and throw numbers around, but in instances, like this, numbers cannot always answer your problems Tamuz. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Thank you for the support backing up your assertion. I will give up ever quantifying anything because its possible that the thing quantified is not a good indicator. Also other than the .40% scum or the 2/3 scum numbers numbers are

not

easy to throw around or you would see everyone doing it. Instead its just me and, once upon a time, Adel.

What is frustrating me is this attitude between Tamuz and JMO that they are accepted townies and now we must all adhere to what they say, when they say jump we jump, inevitably we do not know if they are town or scum and thus I think this 'know it all, we are town' attitude they got going is complete bullshit.

We didn't just magic ourselves into 'town-reads'. We legitimately read, poked, prodded and in jmo's case gambitted in order to get ideas of alignment. We're actually scumhunting. If you think poking and prodding is telling you to jump and expecting you to jump (which you don't do) then whatever. You are perfectly welcome to take a tangent that we haven't talked about or directed for information on and scum hunt down that tangent. But really you haven't done that. You limped on to my vitriol of TIP, ignored buttloads of things directed to you and whined that jmo and I are the ones pushing the town.

However, the fact they have now buddied up as 'town buddies' gives an easy opportunity for one of them to be scum and skate home free. Remember this is mafia and anyone could be scum.

Because the vetting process wasn't difficult at all or anything. Remember this is day 3 of mafia and everyone has their own unique probability distribution of who they believe is mafia. Anyone could be scum, but the likelihood of everyone being scum will not be the same.

And to the hypocrisy:

Anyways, I will go back and read over N64, TIP, and JMO and see if anything stands out. However, you already seem very set on lynching me so just to make life easier for all of us I am VT. I feel scum is JMO, TIP, N64. However, this information is useless as if you lynch me the game will end.

You whine so much that there is this town--pair of Tamuz and JMO and then you just try to make a latent partnership with me, lol.

Also how does you claiming VT make anything easier on us?

You are encouraged to scumhunt. There is a wealth of info. Will you even try finding scum?

Although chances are you ignore everything and disappear for 24 hours again.

[Tamuz]

Gen, you don't seem to understand. You constantly are making 'mistakes'. At some point I can't give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't just lying. You are also getting extremely hostile at this idea that I would even think you're full of shit and still haven't answered things that you say you answered, so I think we're at an impasse for discussion. You just want to go off on dear diary tangents and post more about your day than scumhunt. If you have anything interesting to say from hereon out I'm not reading you.

VOTE: reaffirm vote: Gen_Wolf

N64:

TIP is scum, tamuz's proof as to how TIP could be town has led to "anyone could be his partner, but only TIP and N64 never thought TIP was town"

What are you talking about. If you are going to quote me, quote me. Because this looks like you are making up shit and mis-attributing it to me. I don't have a proof of how TIP could be town.

I still think that lynching TIP today is not the move because of this bizarro theory that has literally 0 reasoning, just assertions, that I am TIPs partner. Re-read Gen's limp up to voting TIP and then the hammer post and tell me that isn't a bus.

[Tamuz]

If TIP is town:
1.Jmo isn't scum
2.Tamuz isn't scum
3.Gen wolf isn't scum.

obviously, at least one of the above(isn't scums) is scum.

Writing explicitly (somewhat thinking aloud for myself). Given the assumption that scum would hammer a townie in lylo we get:

N64 is not scumteam with [jmo16mla, tamuz, gen_wolf]
jmo16mla is not scumteam with [n64_lord, gen_wolf, Tamuz]
gen_wolf is not scumteam with [n64_lord, jmo16mla, Tamuz]
tamuz is not scumteam with [n64_lord, gen_wolf, jmo16mla]

leaving us the following possibilities.
N64_lord is scum with [TIP]
jmo16mla is scum with [TIP]
gen_wolf is scum with [TIP]
tamuz is scum with [TIP]
TIP is scum with [jmo16mla, Tamuz, Gen_Wolf, N64_lord]

So yep, no problem with your logic, even if TIP has problems with it. His issue from post 1098 doesn't pan out because 2 scum could vote him but with two timegaps with posts from jmo and gen posting with [N64, Gen] and [N64, jmo] voting him. If either of the two were partnered with the other or with N64 they had chance to 1-vote hammer. (1-vote to distinguish away from a coordinated 2-votes in sequence)

That leaves us with TWO. COUNT THEM EVERYONE, TWO PEOPLE. Who didn't get a chance to hammer. You and N64.

Slight flaw here, TIP had plenty of chances to hammer himself, he did not (which is of course important). AFAICT caught scum won't self-hammer for 2 reasons:
1. They want to give their partner the ability to get towncred from the scum lynch.
2. They believe they can buddy hard enough to set up a townie tomorrow.


So since you wanted me to comment, re:

You just completely ignored my case.

theres my comment. Our logics match. Its also segues into something I've said for while now. The better lynch is on who I think the partner is.

[Tamuz]

No.
The list has to do with logical inference based solely on the assumption that scum would hammer a townie today. Whether or not I believe a person to be town or scum is not relevant to that list (you can see I listed myself). It is completely without my personal judgment.

If you want a list of who I think are scum, well just look at my vote.

[Tamuz]

We do have to come to a compromise, since town loses at no lynch as well. Gen wolf's answers to questions are evasive, and I don't feel like his omgus vote on you is on a genuine scumspect of his. TIP hasn't dne anything original enough for me to think of hm as town though.

I would certainly vote TIP before a no-lynch, refusing to lynch is an instant loss. Jmo has been active enough that I'm not worried about his vote, the worry is the townie in [Gen_Wolf, N64_Lord] because you guys are really lurky.

I know its broken record, but I think Gen is the better lynch of TIP and Gen, but I would certainly lynch TIP before [nolynch, Tamuz, jmo16mla, N64_Lord].

[Tamuz]

How do my actions make any sense as his partner?

Not my votes, my actions.

[Tamuz]

In terms of consistency as scum would it make any sense for me going extremely hard to bus a person to get town rep and then not carry through on the bus? Would it make sense as scum to lengthen a day and try to get more and more information about all the town members if my goal from the outset had been to bus my partner?

If we lynch TIP today I am set up for a lynch tomorrow and I don't trust you or N64 to actually read Gen's posts (e.g. him limping onto voting TIP, the post he thought was a hammer, his lurky, evasive and whiny posting afterwards) and realize the obvious. Gen today TIP tomorrow, from my perspective is much better for a town win, otherwise tommorow will be really annoying, frustrating and, again, I don't have faith in my teammates.

So while settling for a TIP lynch today is ok, I don't think it will win the town the game because of all of the TIP and Tamuz scumteam sentiment.

[Tamuz]

Going out for the evening, may not be back by deadline.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TheIrishPope

[Tamuz]

I will also be VLA the 1st through the 6th

[Tamuz]

TIP just made a scum team based on omgus+easy lynches, with no mention of their history, I wish I had the foresight to see that earlier!

Who is his partner if he turns out to be scum?

If

?

He's confirmed scum, given the "scum team will hammer a townie" assumption. If you have a problem with that assumption and the logic you probably should voice it, otherwise why are you dealing with ifs?

[Tamuz]

Do god's work.

[Tamuz]

lol.

jmo do you need to hear me expound on anything or shall I engage the crossposts?

[Tamuz]

VOTE: Gen_Wolf

[Tamuz]

Interesting to say

I know I am not scum

As opposed to "I know I am town". I'm no Freudian, but might one call that a Fox Paw?

As to the rest of your post you're basically saying "Tamuz is scum because he replaced lurkers who lurked so hard they had to be replaced". Lets ignore how stupid of a statement and look around it.

1. I have 78 posts. If you want to convince jmo that my slot is scum you could actually present something I've said/done, explain how it is consistent of scum. You do not.
2. Again you whine here. You whine that I'm 'seen' town and how its 'just because my slot became active' and that its undeserved. I feel the summary is 'Its not fair that people think Tamuz is town just cause'.
3. Despite your whining about how I was 'just given townie recognition', N64 thought of me as possible scum as recently as Post 1000 and jmo called me Tip's partner as recently as Post 1124. The misrep is strong in this one.

As for Gen_Wolf and why he is scum? This post.

Guys, at some point we are going to have to lynch, I hate losing so I hope you are right but I think Tamuz has the most compelling case. I am willing to vote TiP today, lets hope you right.

It is a little bit of an omgus, heres for trying to bus me Pope, but sorry,

this bus is full, muddafuka

Lets bite this bullet

vote: Irish

jmo, if you'd like me to redigest the was this post is scummy I can.

[Tamuz]

lol.

[Tamuz]

Oh and my trip got postponed for bad weather , so I'm here and not VLA now.

New plan is to head out next Wednesday. I do expect this game to be over by then, but I figure I should keep the VLA stuff up to date.

[Tamuz]

prod dodge, I guess.

[Tamuz]

So yeah. I mean I can write the Gen's relation to the TIP-wagon makes him TIP's partner post and/or the Gen dodges content by making extended appeals to emotion without giving any reason to say why my slot is scum post.

But neither are novel posts and would end up with a lot of C+P. So again, if you want them or anything from me, ask.

[Tamuz]

OK. Lets look at Gen and TIP, remember to ask yourself, "is this more consistent of scum or town?".

So coming out on D3 what was GW thinking?

talah(replacement?)/jmo scum team

Out of the gates he shows no interest in TIP who, remember, hammered without readingright before. we continue on in D3 and Gen offers 0 reasoning of why he thinks anyone is scum until we get to this,

I disagree. I personally feel a no lynch would be better but I have been shunned upon lately. I disagree with the logic.

the question seems genuine and the part in the middle is pure fluff filling the post?

vote jmo. you should have been lynched d1

At this point jmo was attacking/voting TIP. This vote without reasoning looks like an attempt to protect his scum buddy. The vote also strengthens the idea that GW is at least looking at a jmo scum member, as does this one,

i need to sleep. Im still for jmo lynch.

So its fairly nicely established that GW wanted and pushed a jmo lynch early D3. (and for some perspective, I did come out day 3 saying TIP is scum and I think jmo is his buddy... scum could want to use that and push the jmo lynch. Clearly my mind changed).

The next post gets into what I consider a scumslip, and there is little argument against is, but first we need to establish definition for Bussing.

Bussing is the act of distancing yourself from your scum partners

Bussing = scum on scum.

The first post where Gen really mentions known scum TIP is here,

The only reason I am weary to vote TIP because mala seemed townie and influential. However, the fact TIP is bussing me makes me want to vote him. I would prefer a JMO lynch? Run your TIP case by me again please? Sorry, its cause its lylo and im scared haha

He's amishing TIP, giving him credence for something TIP didn't do.

He says TIP is bussing him

. Again, bussing is scum-on-scum.
Again he pushes a jmo agenda, but looks for a reason to limp onto a TIP vote/bus, despite adding no reasoning of why he'd think TIP is scum.

And the culmination here, the bus post itself.

Guys, at some point we are going to have to lynch, I hate losing so I hope you are right but I think Tamuz has the most compelling case. I am willing to vote TiP today, lets hope you right.

It is a little bit of an omgus, heres for trying to bus me Pope, but sorry,

this bus is full, muddafuka

OK to establish here, the tone of this post shows that he thinks it is a lynch vote, but look at the reasoning.

Gen wolf engages in a large amount of heding and self-justification. "We are going to have to lynch", "Lets hope you['re] right." The text here is Gen making himself feel better about his vote. This goes even further with the message to Pope: 'sorry, this bus is full, muddafuka '.

He apologizes to, someone we now know as scum, that he is lynching. If you're feeling sorry about a lynch as a townie and its not deadline why are you lynching? This SCREAMS bussing and more congnitive dissonance, this time to his partner. Oh, he also calls it a bus. Twice. Gen writes as if he had to make this vote and he feels bad about it and held his nose as he did so.
"sorry", "at some point we [have to] lynch", and "I hope [TIP is] right".

And last look at the reasoning here. Prior Gen wanted a jmo lynch, but wasn't getting it. He provided 0 case against TIP other than 'TIP tried to bus me'. This post he reiterates the bussing and adds no other reasoning. He limps on to this wagon with "I think Tamuz has the most compelling case". No personal write-up on why TIP is scum, he just leans on other's posts. This is a clear case of limping in to try and lynch a scumbuddy apologizing and hedging the entire time.


Can get to scumvoidance discussing dissonance later.

[Tamuz]

I would be very amused

[Tamuz]

jmo. Do you think I am mafia?

Reading the run up to tip's wagon and then the ease off do you believe my actions are consistent of scum? Reading after it, do you believe my verbal exploration is consistent of scum? Do you think Gen's avoidance to explain his actions, opting instead to whine and bring up out-of game information is consistent of town?

I hate to say this, but you are the hold up here and you aren't introducing any avenues of discussion. If you really want Gen or I to say something YOU might have to put a card down and say "POST X is alignment Y'ey because of reason Z'.

Stylistically you don't put reasoning up much at all, but this is the game, if you want Gen and I to reengage in this game you need to lay your thoughts on the table. Otherwise you'll get me repeating things I've said... which is boring to write and Gen lurking (until he writes another ATE post).

[Tamuz]

TBH you're really bad at dialogue, which hurts activity in games when Gen and I have made our peace.

As for ordering, thats dumb. If you assume a conclusion and then go back and find evidence to fit your conclusion you're insanely biased and your results are hopelessly broken. From the evidence in the rundown of the TIP wagon -> TIP lynch I came to the conclusion that Gen is scum. When asked to why he is scum I point to that evidence which led me to that conclusion.

If you want me to go through D1 and D2 to cherry pick information AFTER I have already arrived at my conclusion then prepare to be disappointed. This is methodology. You derive your conclusion from the evidence, not conclude and then find support.

[Tamuz]

I acted you to discuss. Just asking questions is not a dialogue.

The VLA I've mentioned multiple times in this topic about starts tomorrow. I don't feel I have anything to say or respond to. I may get a post in before tomorrow if something crops up. Otherwise... do God's work.

[Tamuz]

This is incredibly poor sportsmanship.

[Tamuz]

V, No Access, until Sunday the 11th

Noted....Rach

[Tamuz]

I'm back and literally the only comment I have is "Hello Nacho!".

So, Hello Nacho.

[Tamuz]

I did not try to bus TIP. I attacked TIP based on some things I found scummy.

The manner and explanations involved in N64 and Gen_Wolf's votes on TIP did not sit right with me so I attempted to voice why they bothered me and tried to get explanations from their originators.

I did not vote early because we were in LYLO and I did not confident to vote.

I didn't vote right after Gen_Wolf's failed hammer because I wanted to explore things.

I voted before deadline because I was fine with TIP being the lynch, even if Gen_Wolf would give the town a better chance to win.

Scumhunting is not scummy.

As to comfort, I don't follow.

[Tamuz]

If you didn't realize since you and TIP twinposted like the biggest assholes in the world in response to my post in 875, I've derided everyone a bunch in this game.

991 is me making fun of TIP, note the 'duh'. 1036 is me also making fun of TIP, attacking his intelligence, also note post 1042 where NS basically asks that I stop being a dick.

Post 1040 is TIP calling the union of himself and me 'we' and appealing to me directly as his scum partner/make it look like there is day-scum communication in thread wasn't novel. I ignored it there because I addressed it the first time I noticed it, here
Post 1022.

I respond by calling him an asshole and actually put my reasoning down in this post.

[Post 1022] is a blatant positioning post to help a mislynch on me tomorrow. What do you think I'm calling you an asshole for? Like I said, I don't see a town win coming from lynching you today regardless of alignment. If you're town we lose. If you're scum it looks like a townie can be convinced TIP Tamuz scum team is a real thing and you have been working framing posts like the that one to support it. The last one is just beyond stupidly obvious.

You'll notice he keeps doing this, calling him and I 'we' or 'us' and then his 'Win this for us Tamuz' Lynch-post continues it.

So I don't think he's saying anything, he's just pushing the same agenda that he thought would work; getting some stupid townie to think we're on the same team. Sadly I agree with him that this town did not have the means to put 2-2 together which is why I really preferred the Gen_Wolf lynch yesterday.

AtE

What is the appeal? What is the emotion?

[Tamuz]

Posted from my Iphone

[Tamuz]

I'm not a fan of the "you're bussing TiP" dance that Tamuz has been orchestrating for pretty much this entire day, especially after TiP's flip.

The entire day? You cite post 827 as you're argument and skip to post 1123. Just ignore that in post 878 I state

JMO is being a king douche, but the numbers don't think he is scum.

And then I don't talk about jmo bussing TIP ever again. Methinks you're ignoring 300 game posts to fit to your argument, but ignoring a bunch of posts and using the word entire is a complete misrep.

Tamuz is happy to talk and talk and talk about JMO bussing TiP, but when Tamuz is suspected of being a partner, he's extremely concerned of talking about why he's partnered with TiP and how "town can't win the game if they believe us partners", which is blatant AtE.

One post that translates to "Explain your thought, does it make sense?" is extreme concern? This sounds like a misrep to fit an argument too.

And now lets look at "town can't win the game...". I don't say that. I say I don't think it is the better move. This is you changing the word I say, which has completely different connotations. I'm not saying lynch TIP and we lose, I'm saying I thought, and still think, lynching TIP yesterday was a worse play for town win %. There is a not-so-subtle difference between the two and you are blatantly changing what I say.
Now if you really think this is an appeal to emotion, why is it scummy?

That's 3 instances so far where you overplay, ignore or outright change words while still attributing it as a direct quote just to force an argument.

Here's misrep #4!

why would there be any reason why you would need jmo's permission to vote confirmed scum...?

This isn't asking for permission (see the difference between may and shall). Jmo is the obvious lynchpin coming in to today, it is about not rushing. If he wanted time to think and question I am and was fine with that. Compare the two:

I don't want this game to drag on. If I am wrong and JMO is scum then GG.

jmo do you need to hear me expound on anything

Gen urges to just get it over with asap. I am not rushing and open to discussion.

You're acting like you expect him to completely change his playstyle in order to facilitate discussion and urging him to hammer quicker if he can't adapt to the condition you know he's not going to meet, and rushing a hammer in this situation is scummy as fuck.

And another misrep. The day was dragging. I had said my piece Gen was flaking or only responding in whining rants about how unfair this game was to him. I'm urging jmo to actually pace the game, he is the only one undecided and there is no reason to hold any information at this point in the game. Gen and I weren't making any profitable discussion, we also had no doubts about alignment. Jmo is and was the one who isn't in the know. He needed to take some control over the game and probe into the areas that he believes will help him come to a conclusion. This is me urging him to talk and discuss.

You say twice that I'm urging him to hammer. Tell me where?
Is it here

If you really want Gen or I to say something YOU might have to put a card down and say "POST X is alignment Y'ey because of reason Z'.

Where I'm urging him to post his belief(s) and reasoning.

or here?

TBH you're really bad at dialogue, which hurts activity in games when Gen and I have made our peace."

Where again I'm urging him to talk.
"Dialogue", "say", "avenues of discussion".

Not vote.

[Tamuz]

Compare Post 878, pulled I replaced in (0 posts from me in my slot) and Post 948, (33 posts).

[Tamuz]

It is, but certainly some things changed between me and my predecessors, one being sample size. The other being that I posted, scumhunted and didn't lurk myself out of the game. Lurk posts, unsurprisingly, lead scummy.

[Tamuz]

Ask Rach, NS or TIP, jmo. Its not my place.

[Tamuz]

Ask Rach, NS or TIP, jmo. Its not my place.

[Tamuz]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4487095

[Tamuz]

You did it right, jmo! (And sorry about calling you bad so much. Our play styles clash so hard.)

I don't have faith in my teammates.

Right in the feels

Of course you knew then and still know I wasn't talking about you, but you did much better at sowing doubt than I had expected. It caught me off guard, so I had to switch gears hard.

I still maintain Gen was scum-slipping all over the place with words like bus, and trying to prove that he isn't scum, instead of showing how his actions make sense as town.

I rly hope gen flips scum because if he does that will mean that I snuffed out both scum by reading less than 50 posts total. :3

Alas, we also have to be able to push our reads... and make people not see us as scum, which is the harder part imo.

This game shows me that I really need some sort of spam-protection on my numbers (really a better classification scene) and much better normalization on both entropy and rankings. But I present the scummiest post in the game with a 99.94994% confidence that it is scummy:

Apologies, EBWODP - quote tags wrong.

Jmo's vote looked like a pressure vote. It didn't bother me, but Luigi's vote did.

Plus

Luigi's vote puts Thane at L-2

and as I said it looks like an opportunist jump.

Wait, you're voting me because I'm caring about your prior slot putting someone at L-2?

I'm not sure what type of response you are expecting from me in regards to this. I could suggest you meta me regarding this, but it's your call. I don't like early L-1/L-2 wagons because there's not much information to go off in-case of a quick lynch. If there's a flip (regardless of alignment) due to interactions with everyone it brings me one step closer to figuring out the scum from town members.

[Tamuz]

Kinda still want the scum QT

[Tamuz]

Broken promises