Newbie 1381 Oakhaven is Overrun Game Over

[Greywing]

/confirm

VOTE: uoyeluri

Only scum try to rule others.

[Greywing]

VOTE: Malakittens

[Greywing]

#15 didn't seem a little odd to you?

[Greywing]

@Moth: I voted because of the fact that Luigi's vote was an obvious joke vote, and yet Mala seemed to jump on him for it. I didn't like that in the slightest.

As an aside, what did you think of Honey Bee's opening post?

I was waiting for him to reply "what's the reason for your vote?" To where I would ask him the same thing. This would make him realize, oh maybe I should explain my votes.

That was deliberate. Got us out of RVS, didn't it?

Who is your top Town read so far?

[Greywing]

I voted Mala because I got a scum read. The lack of explanation was to get us out of RVS.

[Greywing]

I'll remove it if I find someone scummier then you.

Why are you still going on about a joke RVS vote?

[Greywing]

@Tybalt: Is there anything in particular that is giving you Town reads on Moth and Mala?

[Greywing]

@Tybalt: I'm still waiting for an answer to this:

@Tybalt: Is there anything in particular that is giving you Town reads on Moth and Mala?

There's also been a ridiculous lack of analysis from Luigi so far. There was his well publicised RVS post, and he's only followed it up with posts complaining about people discussing him. I still believe that his RVS vote was intended as a joke, but the lack of content since then makes me think that he's trying to fly under the radar. Mala's looking more Town to me now after a re-read.

UNVOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: Luigilewis889

[Greywing]

VOTE: Luigilewis889 for not mentioning me until he is asked by jmo in post #72 how he feels about me. Upon being asked about me he quotes what others have said and then votes me.

It seems almost like a less experienced mafia following the lead of a more experienced one, however this is flawed by the fact that I get a town read from jmo.

So let me get this straight: Your case is based on a feeling that he's being coached by a scum partner (Jmo) that you have a Town read on?

As for the section before that, why are you specifically singling out Luigi, when others have done the same thing?

@Tybalt: Ever plan on answering my question?

@Tybalt: Is there anything in particular that is giving you Town reads on Moth and Mala?

[Greywing]

For now,
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Greywing

Some good analysis coming from GW, maybe a bit

too

good? I wonder if he's missed out on tentatively reading anyone yet?

So...I'm scum because I'm a decent player?

[Greywing]

So what changed between this post, where you liked my analysis:

HA! Indeed, I think I was a bit hasty with my faux-RVS on Greywing. Looking back over the thread I can see he actually questioned the basis of a vote from Thane on Luigi (which is now me), so that's a major point in his favour, soft as the defence was.

UNVOTE: Greywing

And this post, where all of a sudden, it makes me scummy:

Regarding Grey, in ISO his posts seem mostly about analysing situational logic and asking reactive questions. He also votes Luigi (me) in post #77:

@Tybalt: I'm still waiting for an answer to this:

@Tybalt: Is there anything in particular that is giving you Town reads on Moth and Mala?

There's also been a ridiculous lack of analysis from Luigi so far. There was his well publicised RVS post, and he's only followed it up with posts complaining about people discussing him. I still believe that his RVS vote was intended as a joke, but the lack of content since then makes me think that he's trying to fly under the radar. Mala's looking more Town to me now after a re-read.

UNVOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: Luigilewis889

..and the very next time he posts (#99) he is criticising ThaneAravan for his rationale in voting exactly the same way. That's hmm.. well I don't actually find that scummy, just dissonant. But the fact that it's his only real analysis, I wonder if Grey isn't trying to avoid giving out opinions of his own.

VOTE: Greywing

Echoing what others have said, everything Talah has said since replacing in is just making me more confident that I have my vote on the right person.

-His predecessor made no analysis whatsoever, and only complained about people discussing his joke RVS vote.
-Talah has come in, and thrown his vote on about half the playerlist in an attempt to make something stick.

I'm good with lynching this guy today. Not sure if Rach will still count my previous vote since it was before Talah replaced in, so for the sake of clarity:

VOTE: Talah

Votes on a predecessor count as on the successor when a replacement happens after the vote...Rach

[Greywing]

Grey do you have any other reads other than Talah?

Scum-wise? Nobody that really sets off alarm bells like Talah does. I'm pretty confident that you are Town, and I'm getting Town reads on Mala and Fro. Besides the three of you, I can't say with confidence.

If I had to pick a second scum right now, I'd go with Moth. Something just seems off to me when I read his posts. My case here is predominantly gut though.

[Greywing]

So, assuming that the "play" is stating that the scumteam is myself and Jmo, why don't you have your vote on either of us? I would think that if you were that confident, you'd be actively trying to lynch the pair of us.

(As an aside, I got a good chuckle out of that, so thanks .)

[Greywing]

First of all, Talah, stop the intentional misspelling of my name in an attempt to insult me. I've treated you with respect throughout this game, and I expect the same in return. Thank you.

And with that introduction, Gen_Wolf has just become my second biggest scum read. I feel like he's deliberately picked the three people who have generated the most suspicion among the playerlist and gave them scumreads in an attempt to look more Town.

I also hate his "admitting to scum" question to Honey. Looks like a way of trying to set up a future wagon against a player who's been very pro-Town thus far, and is generally seen as such.

@Honey: I've reread Tybalt and I can see your case on him. I'll settle for his lynch if it comes down to it, but I'd rather see Talah or Wolf die first. Barring something drastic, I'm not open to anybody else today.

[Greywing]

I already gave my reads, but ok, I'll bite.

I don't know. Could potentially be scum, but he's not among my bigger scumreads.

[Greywing]

I know I'm Town, and I have Town reads on three other players. Everyone else is potentially scum.

My point is, I don't know. He could be scum, he could be Town.

[Greywing]

VOTE: mala

Care to dance?

This vote is really really bad.

Vote: JMO

That's

l-1

I agree with Jmo. Scum caught.

VOTE: Mothrax

I don't believe Jmo's scum. This is a scum-driven wagon and Mothrax fell for Jmo's bait (the vote on Mala.) Mothrax's vote was so blatantly opportunistic.

I'd wager that the other scum is on this wagon too and pushing it heavily: one of Talah/GenWolf.

[Greywing]

Why, Talah? Know something I don't?

[Greywing]

mothrax I think I bungled badly and could have had a claim by now, if that's what happened with the L-1 before. He wasn't reading. Sorry.

Am I reading this correctly and you believe Moth tried to fakeclaim L-1 in order to get an early claim from Jmo?

[Greywing]

That doesn't worry you?

Claims really only benefit scum on Day 1, in my opinion. If the player is a Town PR, he's getting killed that night and we get no information from them. Vanilla Townies will claim VT, in which case they still die. Scum will claim either VT, or a PR. Either way, they still die by lynch on either Day 1 or 2.

[Greywing]

False. So many quick votes and unvotes flying around and I missed them. I looked at the last Votecount and reskimmed the few pages and thought it was l-1. I wasn't pushing for a claim and in fact never even said "JMO claims" I stated l-1 because its common curtesy.

And Grey, that would be nice if JMO had said his vote on mala was a gambit, but he didn't. It was a legit vote and it was scummy.

Fair enough. I didn't get that on my initial reading of it, hence why I asked the question of Talah.

Right, because you would have voted him if he announced that the vote was a gambit. Nice try.

Not a bit. What PR could he possibly credibly claim? A PR needs more information, not less, to know what night action to take. So he claims VT and we move on.

Well, we have four potential PR types in the game, depending on which setup is chosen. You clearly have no idea of how claiming works. Regardless, I believe Moth's explanation, so I'm dropping this discussion.

[Greywing]

I don't like how he's been sticking to the sidelines and not doing a whole lot other than defending himself from Honey. He had a small attack on Jmo, and then flipped to me for a silly reason. There are better candidates in my opinion, but I was willing to sheep Honey and vote him if that was how the rest of Town wanted to go. But yeah, I could definitely see him being scum.

I want to know why you view Moth as Town. As I said earlier, I've had a bad feeling about him for awhile, but I couldn't really pick out anything specifically why.

[Greywing]

@Jmo: Since it looks like you're dying today, who would be your other choice as scum?

[Greywing]

Like I said, I want who everyone wants to lynch tomorrow, NOW.

Mothrax, although I'll accept a lynch of Talah or Wolf. They've been pushing your wagon heavily. If you flip Town (which I highly suspect you will,) then I don't see how the scum team isn't in this group.

@Jmo: Before someone hammers you, do you see Talah as the most likely partner for Mothrax then?

[Greywing]

I thought so too at first so I went back and checked before I made that last post. You're at L-1: Wolf, Mothrax, Talah, and Hyperion.

[Greywing]

To all those still on the Jmo wagon: Care to explain why you still think this is a viable lynch after Jmo's Townslip after he believed he was hammered? I'm specifically looking at Mothrax and Wolf, as they've both posted since.

Absolutely, thanks.

VOTE: Tybalt

Explain.

[Greywing]

I don't think we're going to get a lot more accomplished at this point until we get a lynch and can see someone's alignment. As Mala said, this day has been dragging, and we need to come up with some sort of consensus here.

I'm vehemently opposed to lynching Honey Bee, Mala and Jmo. They're strong Town reads. I had a slight Town read on Hyperion due to the play of his predecessor, so I don't want him lynched either. He's someone that I'll reanalyze on D2 after we start seeing some flips.

I want our lynch to be one of Mothrax/Wolf/Talah. As I've said, I believe at least one of the scum is in this group. I don't see any of them being lynched today though unfortunately. That leaves us with Tybalt, and it looks like the lynch is between him and Jmo today. I feel a lot better supporting the Tybalt wagon as I could potentially see a case for him being scum (although I feel more confident about the other three I mentioned,) and I feel more comfortable following a wagon led by my two strongest Town reads throughout the game.

Grey, why do you think mothrax is scum? Because he didn't like a vote?

...

Also I highly doubt mothrax is scum. I don't see it AT ALL. He didn't like jmo's poor play through most of the day, he didn't like jmo's excuses, and after making a vote lacking context he voted jmo. These reasons aren't strong but I don't think they're scummy.

It was essentially gut for the most part for awhile, which is why I never pushed it. His vote on Jmo felt highly opportunistic however, hence my vote. While yes, he did question Jmo's play, he was adamant that his scum reads were Talah and me until he decided to switch his vote. Besides, it's not like he was the only one questioning Jmo's play...a number of players were. As you know, just questioning someone doesn't make someone Town so I don't understand why he's getting a free pass because of that.

[Greywing]

I don't see Tybalt or Hyperion coming back before deadline and I won't be able to post again until after the deadline, so here goes:

VOTE: Tybalt

[Greywing]

@Talah: I didn't feel as though I had much choice in the matter. As I said, it was the only point before the deadline where I'd be able to post. The people off the wagon at that point were Tybalt (who wasn't going to vote himself,) Hyperion (who had been lurking heavily,) Wolf (who outright said that he wasn't voting Tybalt,) and Mothrax who, frankly, I just don't trust. There was nothing stopping him from just lurking and letting a no-lynch go through, and he'd come out blameless. I figured it was a better play to just hammer rather than take the risk of a no-lynch happening.

[Greywing]

@Talah: I didn't feel as though I had much choice in the matter. As I said, it was the only point before the deadline where I'd be able to post. The people off the wagon at that point were Tybalt (who wasn't going to vote himself,) Hyperion (who had been lurking heavily,) Wolf (who outright said that he wasn't voting Tybalt,) and Mothrax who, frankly, I just don't trust. There was nothing stopping him from just lurking and letting a no-lynch go through, and he'd come out blameless. I figured it was a better play to just hammer rather than take the risk of a no-lynch happening.

You say mothrax would have been blameless for a no lynch

but I also see no way we can blame him in this situation as he was not on the wagon?

Care to quote where I said this?

[Greywing]

Sure you can ask me anything.

"Guys, guys, look how cooperative I am! Ignore the fact that my predecessor dropped scum-tells, I've jumped on every available wagon in order to push a lynch, and have continuously posted fluff in order to look active...I'm willing to do anything for you guys, I *must* be Town!"

VOTE: Talah

While I'm answering questions, I might as well throw in:

(...)
You say mothrax would have been blameless for a no lynch

but I also see no way we can blame him in this situation as he was not on the wagon?

Care to quote where I said this?

Grey this is ridiculous. Why didn't you drop back in and say oops when you re-read it and realised (probably moments after posting it) that you've misread the sentence? Seems like you have time to drop in whenever you want to make a demand or place some allusion on someone's intent but absolutely no time to answer the questions given to you. This is pretty much the same complaint I had of jmo to start with, but I have to re-read jmo in light of heavy tunnelling. If you're doing the same thing to me, and ignoring my own questions, from experience it can be a slippery slope.

Explain to me what I misread.

As well, I have no time to answer questions from

scum reads.

I've been perfectly happy answering questions from Honey, Jmo and Mala since I trust them.

So this:

@Jmo: Before someone hammers you, do you see Talah as the most likely partner for Mothrax then?

Why did you ask this? How does it help town?

...And other recent questions from Gen, and previous questions, go completely unanswered. (I give you credit for your most recent post which is actually a direct answer.) But seriously, we need to scumhunt, which means if you're town you need to be open to answering all kinds of questions, not just the ones that suit you. You had that attitude early on yourself pestering Tybalt (or Thane?) for the answer to a question. Y U NO answer questions?

I'll answer the first question for you, since you clearly have some problems putting information together.

I assumed Jmo was soon to be dead due to the wagon forming, and the reads of the playerlist regarding him. I wanted his opinion before he died. I fail to grasp why this was so tough to understand.

[Greywing]

There is no where I can quote you said this because you did not say this. However, if you read it correctly you will see that I said the word 'I' that means I (Gen_Wolf) said it and never said you said it. Thus, you clearly did not read it properly.

You structured the sentence to make it sound as though I was insinuating it. Nice try.

Also, if you are unwilling to unanswer questions from the majority of the players in the game then you are useless to the game as you are not allowing me, and other players, to scum hunt thus hindering the game and our ability to catch scum.

Now, seeing as you said that you will not answer our questions then I see no need to have you in the game as with you or without you I will be achieving the same result. I think your maneuver is very scummy. In that case:

Vote: Greywing

Ok, now you're just making your alignment obvious. I'm scum because I'm not helping my scum reads confuse the rest of the Town? I'd rather spend my game time helping my Town reads, and making cases against my scum reads. Helping you fake scum-hunt is not my plan.

You can die after Talah.

Gen, why am i no longer scum?

He thinks he'll have more luck lynching me.

[Greywing]

VOTE: Greywing

Yeah you're not really scumhunting though, are you? Really just recycling and re-hashing arguments from others, jumping on others opinions as your own etc. In addition I find this claimed tunnelling of myself (ie you tunnelling me as scum and therefore refusing to take things I say seriously) to be really bad look and counterproductive for someone who's subbed in pre-game to an SE slot.

Oh look, Talah's trying to start another wagon. Never saw that coming .

You're right, I've been tunneling you. I've never voted Mothrax, never pushed Gen_Wolf and never voted Tybalt. My focus has been on you this whole time!

And really? You expect me to take you seriously when you've freely admitted on several occasions that you have no idea what you're talking about?

If we're being fair though, yes, I've listened to your opinions less due to my belief that you are scum. The fact that you're calling me scummy because of that is hypocritical. You have admitted to doing the same thing.

jmo, can you do me a huge favour and answer this please:

jmo

, do you think that Grey's vote on mothrax, was more, or less, opportunistic than mothrax's own vote on you?

This just proves my point that you're just posting fluff in order to look active. Look at how he voted, and then ask yourself that again. The answer is obvious.

[Greywing]

Mala, all I can say is if you want to ask me five questions in a row, while avoiding asking anyone else anything, I don't really know how to respond. I did say I was going to be trying to lurk-n-learn a bit more. But questions me without regard to any other players is just going to result in more spam explaining in detail why I'm doing every single thing I'm doing. I don't see that as particularly helpful to Town at this stage.

He's trying to figure out your alignment. How is that not helpful to Town?

Also, you've been tunneling me since my first post on D2, and I've seen no mention of any other scum-reads. Who else could be scum?

[Greywing]

@Talah: Sorry to spoil your fun, but I'm not voting Mala as it's counterproductive to try and lynch a Town slot.

VOTE: guy in a freezer

Someone else vote him too.

'Kay

VOTE: guy in a freezer

Honestly, I just want us to lynch him, Talah and Gen. I couldn't care less for the order we do it in.

[Greywing]

Isn't the order really important? Like for MYLO or LYLO or whatever? Aren't we in a pretty shitty situation if we mislynch again? So your list would have to be 100% containing the two scum to avoid us losing, if we voted all three? (I don't know how it works in detail but I think it's a valid question / point - I mean you'd want to be voting your #1 scumspect I'd think?)

(apologies for the 4 x question marks - really it's a compound question punctuated by confusion)

I'm very confident that it's two out of the three of you. If we pick wrong, mislynch today, and scum successfully kills, we'll have 3 Town and 2 scum on D3. There's 2 scum remaining in my list. We just lynch the last 2. I have strong Town reads on the other 3 players, so I don't feel nervous about playing it out this way. If I wasn't so sure, then yes, I'd agree that this wouldn't be the best idea.

Talah, if it came down to it, would you be willing to lynch Gen or Freezer today?

[Greywing]

^Cool.

So, who actually is scum then?

[Greywing]

Prod dodge. Been hectic for the past few days. I'll try to post tonight, tomorrow though for sure.

[Greywing]

Sorry for your loss, Mala. Hope you're ok.

@Grey: Another reason why I'm (effectively) voting you. You do not defend yourself as town. At all. You do not bother saying why the things you are doing, are supposed to be town motivated. You seem to have me down as scum based on events from aeons ago.

You'll notice that I do not actually care if people flag me as scum.

So why aren't you defending yourself? I expect some kind of answer to this considering I just took you off L-1.

This post is scum mentality. Town is trying to go after scum while the main goal of scum is self-preservation. The fact that the only thing your predecessor did was try to save himself (a trait that you took up for quite some time after replacing in,) is one of the big reasons for my scum read on you.

As for the bold part...are you kidding me? Re-read this post:

*** Freezer, somewhat important

When you get back to your read-through can you do me a huge favour and not focus 'too too' much on my own actions in regards to feedback on players?
Don't avoid commenting on my posts by any means, but...

You will find out why this needs to be weighted later, suffice to say for now that:
- A lot of what you say has been said before
- Take a squiz at the activity list
- You're reading a train-wreck in the making at the point you got up to

Take my posts with a grain of salt please? Hearing about myself again doesn't help me much

VOTE: Now everyone else post!

Does this sound like someone who doesn't care about how he is perceived?

If I'm lynched today, I hope Town finally starts to seriously look at you. It'd be a bit interesting that you'll have been a major player on two Town lynches.

[Greywing]

... but it doesn't mean you guys shouldn't post
Read about 5 pages, and checked the day 1 lynch and HOLY SHIT a hammer without a claim is a policy lynch, no exceptions
VOTE: Grey

And yet you just did the exact same thing.

Anyways, I'm VT. Good luck Town. I still think our scum team is 2 of Talah/Gen/GIF.

[Greywing]

Wait, there was a dead QT? And I love how someone impersonated me in there...real classy.

Anyways, far from my best game. I wouldn't have believed that Mala was scum as I had an overwhelmingly Town read on her. It was undoubtedly good for Town that I was lynched because it helped to zero in on TIP after his scummy quickhammer, and the fact that I would have stood in the way of lynching him.

Kudos to Jmo: He played a great game and really started to carry the Town after his near lynch.

Highlight of the game was Talah essentially rage-quitting after my flip. I'd gotten fed up with him by the end, and I think eventually my scum read on him became based more on the fact that I wanted him gone, rather than anything overtly scummy that he'd done.