Newbie 1389 Trouble in River City Game Over Scum win

[likeabauss]

/confirm

[likeabauss]

Hi everyone. I am likeabauss and I like to ask questions to foster meaningful discussion.

Kueshina - Why waste the energy defending against a pretty silly accusation... that of imkingdavid? (RVS, and clearly the vote and reasoning is frivolous.)

sikon327 - I'm interested in why your first substantial post of the thread has you leaning town on 2 folks, and then "opening a door" on your RVS fferyllt but subsequently clarifying that you are non-committal. I often find that scum opens the door without committing, and lets townies walk through. I also find quite often that scum likes to lean town or confirm town to build allegiance early in the game. Nobody walked through your open door, and you then retracted your vote. I find this intriguing.

JasonWazza - Not to put you on the spot, but I'd like your insights on my questions above.

[likeabauss]

Kueshina, thanks for the reply. Again, I'm confused by your response though. Let me clarify a bit...

imkingdavid, to paraphrase, said "vote you, because you were the last to confirm." I think we all realize that during the RVS, people just toss votes around frivolously without any true belief, and his vote + reasoning seems to be of that nature. You then responded defensively to imkingdavid's accusation against you, even though it wasn't serious. Now, when I myself have made no accusations, your response has a defensive tone again. I only asked why you responded defensively to his vote, not why you voted for him.

[likeabauss]

sikon327 - thanks for your detailed response to my initial prod. In response to your questions back to me, I'll vote either randomly during a RVS if we need to instigate discussion and create info (prior to my post, sufficient info was generated that I didn't see the need for a random vote alongside my questions.) Or I'll vote when I have more conviction (I have not done enough digging yet to support any of my theories, for or against you or any other player.) So, no vote thus far.

If I may, I'd like to explain the scum tendency of leaning town on multiple people... there are a number of reasons for this. Scum know who is town, therefore they can/will be correct when it suits them (ie, later they can point back and say "Hey, my read on that guy was town... now he's dead, I was right, I'm a good guy.") Also, they can build credibility with town members by leaning/suggesting that they are town... especially with some more novice players. Very often a town player will feel validated like they are doing good, when somebody else thinks they are town. (In my experience, it's more important to find scum than for other people to think you are town. Scum will often NK the most trusted town person to maintain control.) There are a thousand other scenarios, but these are just a few, and we are of course exploring all that we can on Day 1.

[likeabauss]

Very strong gut feeling about this
You post like someone trying to stir up trouble while keeping yourself out of it.

I find this comment very interesting. What is your opinion of what a town person should do? Sit by idly, just reading, and not try to find scum? I like to question and dig, in an effort to obtain information, or "stir up trouble" as you put it. Please explain a bit more.

"Keeping myself out of it" - I don't mind "some trouble", because sometimes we apply heat to players to find out if they break down and the facade becomes known. Please note though... in this game, town and scum alike are avoiding "real trouble" (being hung or NK'd.) So your suggestion that avoiding trouble is a reason to vote for me is not logical... every player in this game (town and scum) is trying to avoid being killed.

And lastly, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear about some of those other things you said you noticed as you read through the posts thus far.

[likeabauss]

I just want to point out that Kueshina and imkingdavid just demonstrated real scum hunting in their most recent posts. Thoughtful insights and additions to the conversation that warrant consideration and exploration. I too noticed sikons overly polite tone and such, but didnt piece it together as scummy until imking pointed it out. I was also satisfied with Kues responses to my questions previously, as the logic makes sense and is reasonable town play, in my opinion. I'd like to see how those questions they raised are handled and discussed though...

Morthas - you didn't really answer my question at all. Yes, finding scum is the top priority. Simply stating that is like saying that grass is green or water is wet. You aren't adding anything of real value, like insights/questions/observations. How do you suggest we hang scum on Day 1? If stirring things up is a scummy thing to do (as you suggested), what other tactics should one employ? (for the record, I disagree with you completely because I have seen stirring things up hang a bad guy on Day 1 many times.) I'm interested to hear an answer, if you'd be so kind.

[likeabauss]

A meta dive on me will show you that I post early town reads when I get them. I'll be happy to provide some links, but my wiki page has links to all my MS games, with my alignment in the ones that have completed. The BSG Micro and the Buzzword Bingo Micro that completed today would be good starts. I was a hydra (one account for two people sharing the same role) in the Buzzword Bingo game. My posts are signed with an "- f" usually.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=User:Fferyllt

It can be scummy, yes. But that is pretty player-specific.

I sort of glazed over this before, but reading through the thread again, it struck me as odd. I made no mention about this type of play from you Fferyllt. Why the pre-emptive defense? Feeling guilty?

[likeabauss]

My early town reads are something of a sore point atm.

I'm completely underwhelmed by this response. Care to elaborate?

[likeabauss]

Fferyllt - let me clarify. I understand the point you are making about your play style, history, meta, etc. My question to you is why did you bring it up in the first place? I made mention of a different player doing a similar thing, as part of a line of questioning to that player, and you chimed in with a defense for YOUR actions. I never mentioned you doing it, neither did anyone else that I can see.

It smells fishy to me, mostly because good guys (town) operate under the confidence of their innocence. Bad guys (scum) are forced to mask their guilt and put on a show. This subtle difference changes the nuance of some things. One of the things I look for is people who are overly defensive (which you've exhibited in this maneuver) because scum feel the need to defend and keep the heat off. A town player knows their innocence and wont be as touchy or knee jerk on defense, especially against an accusation made against a completely different player.

[likeabauss]

sikon - I'm glad you're invested in this game, active players make it more fun for all of us. Did you notice in both of those games here on mafiascum, that I found scum on Day 1 and successfully lynched them? (this is why I find Morthas's comment so confusing... when he suggests that stirring things up does not help to find scum.) It was nothing more than subtle nuance and cues that I observed and explored in both cases. I can assure you that my methods of interrogation and observation can be very productive. In those two games, I picked up on something very early and was correct. My interrogation yielded responses that didn't satisfy my suspicions, and we hung bad guys.

But back to your argument about my voting... I explained my behavior pretty clearly I thought. I don't have enough conviction yet, and we are past the frivolous stage of RVS in my opinion. Are you avoiding the logic there because it contradicts your goal of lynching a townie? (you're re-supporting an argument that you made, despite it being clearly refuted, IMO) Or do you just not like logical play?

Also, do you feel threatened (are you scum?) Is that why you voted for me and then went to research my prior games? Or is that your typical level of involvement in mafia? I'm not one to dive too deeply into meta history as it can be changed by an experienced player, or maintained to illustrate consistency and pseudo alignment.

Lynx - Though I disagree with Kue's association of Morthas and sikon, because I think scum would be silly to associate with a vote this early, there is effort there. (Association and disassociation patterns are very complex and can be difficult to articulate well without a longer trend to analyze.) And I latched onto iamking's observation because it is exactly the kind of "subtle tell" I look for on Day 1. But, nonetheless it appears to be efforts by both of them to actually FIND SCUM.

[likeabauss]

Why, exactly, do you "lack conviction?" Why is it that you believe that you don't have enough evidence to vote me? Statements like "it contradicts your goal of lynching a townie," "do you not like logical play," "do you feel threatened," "are you scum" do not sound like the rhetoric of someone who "isn't sure." What is it that you're afraid will happen if you vote me "prematurely"?

Why use rhetoric that centers around the idea that I am scum trying to lynch a townie if you aren't actually convinced that I'm scum?

I don't know why you feel these questions haven't been answered, except for the fact that I didn't specifically address some of my responses to you...

On lacking conviction for a vote:

::OBSERVATIONS:: I'd like to see how those questions they raised are handled and discussed though...

Morthas - ::QUESTIONS:: I'm interested to hear an answer, if you'd be so kind.

I'm not afraid to vote for anybody. I'd prefer to explore as many angles as we can uncover during this day phase. There's no pressure to move quickly at this point, and we already have somebody at L-2 with several unanswered questions (more on this later in a separate post.)

Also, I'm confused... Rhetoric? Statements? You cut and copied from my post and tried to frame questions that I asked as if they were statements that I made. This is wicked scummy. You also didn't answer any of those questions. So... pot, kettle... what's up?

Regarding your argument about my meta, and refuting it:

I'm not one to dive too deeply into meta history as it can be changed by an experienced player, or maintained to illustrate consistency and pseudo alignment.

I don't put much stock into meta reads (I know lots of people here do though.) I just prefer to focus the discussion/energy elsewhere. You can dig into old games of all the players all you want. I don't think it matters much, for the reason I posted above. A good player can/will adjust their meta or maintain it as they see fit.

And likeabauss -- don't think I haven't noticed your sudden silence. You were online today, but didn't see fit to actually post. I would very much like you to answer the questions I've posed to you. If you are indeed pro-town, then you should be able to explain the pro-town justifications for your actions.

I do most of my posting during the work week. On the weekends, I have an ipad and read on my couch, but I hate typing on that thing and quoting and trying to formulate a proper response. I do work a couple weekend days a month, and may post if something pressing is going on and needs insight.

likeabauss, do you still play regularly on another site?

Nope. Those games are my most recently played. Been on hiatus for awhile.

[likeabauss]

What are your thoughts on the formation of town blocs?

What do you mean forming a town bloc?
Also, who do you suspect as scum? I'd love to hear your insights/thoughts/questions into this game, instead of the analysis of the way it is being/has been played. Seems like you're a very meta focused player, is that true?

Lynx_Shine - A wise mafia man I once knew said "When in doubt, hang the lurkers." Mostly because their actions are not pro-town (they are either lurking intentionally as scum, or not helping the town by way of not contributing, so TL;DR HANG THEM.) How would you feel about us stringing you up for failing to help the town?

cAPSLOCK - How can you take offense to somebody replying to you in all caps, when your handle is cAPSLOCK? Seems like flattery more than yelling if you ask me. What is your read on fferyllt's IC post that you mentioned? Mine says scum. Tell me the reason for your read and I'll tell you mine?

Kueshina - This may be a bit unconventional, but would you place yourself in the "older than 25" or "younger than 25" age group?

TheTrollie - I thought the guy playing your role before you was pretty scummy. Have you reread the thread in more detail like you were saying? If yes, please to be sharing some knowledge so that we can either hang you for being scum or move you to the Probably Townie list.

Also...

I was willing to write it off for the time being because he had stated that he had military obligations that would make it difficult for him to post often or with very much content, and also, I wanted to focus on my investigation of likeabauss.

how does this clear him from buddying

This. Stinks. It's like a reverse psychology, future defense plant. "Yo guys, I'm not scum. If I was, I would've never said anything like I did in post 98. Hang WHOEVERELSE, scuzzy scum, my spidey senses are tingling."

[likeabauss]

[...]
Kueshina - This may be a bit unconventional, but would you place yourself in the "older than 25" or "younger than 25" age group?
[...]

I believe the word you were looking for is "rude". Anyway, I prefer to avoid giving out private information on the internet to strangers in public fora.

Alright, perfectly fair. Allow me to cut to the chase then... I was really just wondering why your logic sucks. What gives? Sikon used the word "careless", I'm going with failed logic.

[likeabauss]

VOTE: fferyllt

That feels good.

I believe you to be scum. I have many reasons that I will share when the time is right. For now, I will wait patiently while others weigh in and share their opinions.

What say you all? Is fferyllt scum or am I crazy?

[likeabauss]

You are my strongest scum read atm. Your vote adds more doubt about the accuracy of that read. :/

I can assure you that this logic is faulty.

Please review the post #127 Lynx_Shine made and offer up your thoughts on the concerns presented about you.

Also, cAPSLOCK's post #114 rings true with me. Having reread my previous games here, you'll notice that I strung up an IC mafia goon on Day 1 on an almost identical maneuver.

[likeabauss]

I don't think you parsed my statement correctly. Your vote on me makes me think my scum read could be wrong. I've felt that your approach was indirect, and that you are basing your FoSes on what other players dig up. This is similar in that you're vauting off cAPS and Lynx' posts, but you're not being indirect now.

IME, I tend to either pick up votes in the early phases of day 1 or go more or less unnoticed until there's more data to work with. I don't usually key in on specific posts for scum reads. It's more about body of work.

You are correct, I parsed that incorrectly.

Again, I find myself underwhelmed by your response. Two different players made logical and coherent observations about your behavior and illustrated why it was questionable. I'm not basing my vote on their posts alone:

I believe you to be scum. I have many reasons that I will share when the time is right. For now, I will wait patiently while others weigh in and share their opinions.

But why should I articulate an additional case against you if all we can expect from you in response is, "Read my old games, this is always how I play, I don't scum hunt until the end game, blah blah." I don't care how you play/played other games, I care how you play this game. And in my opinion, you're trying to contribute to the thread without adding anything that's helping the town identify and hang scum. This is not pro-town behavior, and I want to hang you for it.

[likeabauss]

Why are you voting and asking then rest to support your vote? You asked for my reasoning in an I'll show you if you show me fashion.

Why not tell us why you suspect her?

Why are you withholding info from town?

These are not rhetorical questions... Maybe you have a reason?

It is a bit unconventional, I know. Laying out a case gives the other person an opportunity to refute it. Let me replay what happened from my perspective with fferylt and demonstrate exactly how she "rebuked" a component of my case:

1) I vote, stay vague, and say I have some reasons.
2) She utters a no content response that says "I thought you were scum, but now I'm not so sure because you're voting for me." (which I initially misinterpreted.)
3) I escalate in response, and point her to your case, and that of Lynx_Shine (which she basically ignored from the get go.)
4) She responds again with another "no real content post." (correcting me on parsing, but then completely dodging the two arguments against her again.) An hour later, giving her plenty of time to respond to both, she asks somebody else to post more content.
5) At this point, I reply a bit more inflammatory, and hint at a piece of the case against her:

And in my opinion, you're trying to contribute to the thread without adding anything that's helping the town identify and hang scum. This is not pro-town behavior, and I want to hang you for it.

This is one of my key reasons I think she is scum, but how does she respond?
6)She gives me exactly what I asked for. 3 scum suspects, her reasons for all 3, and a vote for one... not before offering an excuse for why she hadn't done it yet:

Substance and quantity is a little lacking in some quarters still, and it's primarily experienced players who seem to be holding back. I'm done waiting for content.

"I'm done waiting for content." Translation: HERE COMES THE BOOM.

Now, solely by virtue of me telling her what she's doing wrong, she corrects it and continues on. Experienced mafia players are very good at this, and can be difficult to nail down. Case in point, fferyllt.

Please note, she didn't really respond to the 2 arguments against her from Lynx_Shine and yourself. (She basically dodged both, despite my asking her to respond.) She then launched into what I consider a play style change, after I called her out on behavior that is no pro town. This also stinks.

I hope that wall of text answers most of your questions. Additionally, I delayed a bit on my response to your read from her IC post. My case revolved around:

I am playing for my team to win, though, so please treat me with the same skepticism in my non-IC posting that you treat everyone else.

And on a reread, after your post, my perception was strengthened based on the other comment you highlighted (odds of drawing a scum role.) Like I said, I have picked up on similar tells in the past with success. I also wanted to see how she would respond to your case, but she choose to ignore your comment (see post 116.)

Now, look forward to post 118.

After you make an argument against her, she says "I feel good about cAPSLOCK." Hmm... this sounds vaguely familiar. Oh yeah, she did it with me later (I call her out in post 132, she responds in post 133 saying "I thought you were scum, but now I think you're town.")

Doesn't it feel REALLY scummy to anybody else for somebody accused to turn around and basically say, "Thanks for suspecting me. I think you're town now."

How about her Lynx_Shine post? Oh yeah:

Lynx_Shine

I like her two posts. Would like to see more posts and more follow-up. In the interest of promoting follow-up...

MORE buttering up to a person that is suspicious of her.

Okay, wall of text over. TL;DR - I think fferyllt is scum. Let's hang her.

[likeabauss]

The glacial pace of this game is making me seriously antsy.

I bet you just can't wait to get to the night phase and chat with your scum buddy.

I'll be honest there is something about this game that just makes it meh to read.

However cAPSLOCK is still a good vote, he's vote is based on lurking, not based on scumhunting.

I was hoping for more insights from you... there have been a number of new angles developed since you RVS'd cAPSLOCK and just left your vote there. I'd love for you to share your "list" or maybe explore some of the observations that are being discussed.

The game may be "meh to read" because you aren't adding enough of your flavor to it. Try that and see if it helps?

ffery is uber town dude.

sik and kuesh (i think it was kuesh i was reading up on my phone earlier ill double check that soon) are scummy

I would love to hear why you disagree with my case against fferyllt. Would also love to hear about your thoughts on Sikon and Kueshina.

[likeabauss]

What are your thoughts about the convo Lynx and I have had about Kueshina and Sikon?

I have some thoughts about the Kueshina discussion that I'm happy to share. Please direct me to the convo with Lynx about Sikon though? Did I miss something because my "FFERYLLT IS MAFIA HANG HER" blinders are on?

[likeabauss]

There is so little about Sikon in those posts, you've really got me scratching my head. I'm wondering if you made a little Freudian slip and are just covering. Did you mean to mention another name? I mean, Lynx doesn't even mention Sikon except to say "condolences." You barely mention an FoS and an apologetic tone in your post. I'd hardly call it a conversation... In fact you pointing me to it just seems like you're trying to show me that you're "Scum hunting" and get back on my good side. Sorry not buying it.

I believe that Kue is town. If anybody else wants me to articulate why, I'm happy to. But for now, I'll barter with you...

Share your analysis of Trollie with us, and I'll respond with my analysis of Kue?

[likeabauss]

Kueshina is on my tentative town list. My original read was that something was off, so I prodded and questioned, even tossed a little bait in there. I applied some heat and even was insulting. Here's what I took away:

Kue is a stranger in a strange land. Playing mafia here, learning the play here... All the responses seem in line with this and genuine in nature. This alone doesn't read town, it's null. But...

Kue is not afraid to think out loud. We saw some funny exchanges, discussion of mass claims, questions about roles, misunderstanding of RVS, and logic that didn't quite compute. A noob to the board that drew a scum role would be afraid of doing any of those things... Especially on day 1 without much coaching or background. (I'd expect a more lurky Day 1 in that scenario)

Kue recognizes that townies need to share ideas and foster discussion. I believe we've seen an answer to every question asked directly, answers to open ended questions, as well as attempts to explore what little data we have. Also, I see scum hunting without being prodded, right out of the gate. Instead of saying "Not much to work with", Kue spotted some things nobody else made mention of and pointed them out.

The "off" part I intend to explore as the game goes on, but I have a few ideas about it and most of them support a town read.

[likeabauss]

I RVS'd cAPSLOCK correct, but that is a real vote now, if you haven't been keeping track.

Oh no, I got that. I just wanted to hear if you had any other ideas or observations.

[likeabauss]

This is only true for some players - how big a kneejerk reaction is generally depends on what the actual case is and how much sense the it makes to the player in question.
If I poke your knee it would do something completely different to if I hit your knee with a sledgehammer.

I disagree here, but point noted. She defended against an accusation that I made about somebody else. That seems suspicious to me, like having a guilty conscience. It wasn't enough for a vote, but it piqued my interest. Coupled with my other points, it supports my scummy read.

Why are you coninsually waiting for other people's opinions?

Same reason we are all here asking questions, and probing strange statements/logic, etc. It helps us gather information about the other players in the game. Hypothetical situation... Let's say we hang Fferyllt and find out she is mafia. With literally no heat on Fferyllt, nor a case against her at the time I asked that question, we can look back at that point and see who answered that they were suspicious of her. I would argue that a scum partner would never generate early wagon momentum on her with just my vote and such a simple question. They would likely avoid answering, and wait to see what shakes out. Therefore, of the other players in this game, I can whittle one or two people off the scum list by virtue of the fact that they said "Hey, yeah, she is sort of suspicious."

I like to do this in early game days, so that later we can look back and do associations/disassociations to narrow the field a bit farther. If we don't start building a trail of breadcrumbs early though, we lack the content later.

Also, take into consideration that at the time, we had a number of players who weren't posting much. I like to try and draw people into the game, so sometimes I throw out a curve ball and see who swings. You'll note I've tried to engage a few different people by non-conventional methods this game. (specifically Kueshina, cAPSLOCK, Fferyllt, and JasonWazza.) If you want me to clarify on any of those instances, I'm happy to.

This same thing has stuck in my craw as well. He did it with me and was then fairly evasive when I asked for his half of the bagain.

I responded to you fairly clearly/completely in post 146. I'm happy to clarify if you have questions, but evasive doesn't seem to be the right word. I thought I was pretty forthcoming with my reasons/logic in that post.

likeabauss

' decision to finally throw down a vote in earnest has honestly kind of eased the tension I felt towards him. Good to see him being direct. On balance, many have noted that he's demonstrating a very... strange tendency to hold back on stating his cases until other players say something. That's odd to me. Why hold back? I still don't fully understand the goal of doing this. Surely you want to hear how they respond to your accusations -- the fact that fferyllt's responses to your accusations were "no content" could have a lot to do with her not knowing why you were accusing her. Maybe you have a reason for this! It's just odd to me.

Please see post 146. Sometimes you keep a few thoughts close to your chest. If I come on here, and text wall ramble about all the reasons why I think Fferyllt is mafia, she changes playstyle and adapts, and I can't get enough votes to lynch her despite the fact that I am quite sure she is mafia. I can lay out a 10 point logical argument why she should hang, but she will then work to refute all 10 points and convince everybody she is town. Whereas if I fluidly point things out in spurts, and she adapts to them fluidly in response, (this involves me leaving a few key pieces of my case off the table), I can begin to demonstrate a history of her changing her posting/play to refute my claims against her.

Q) Why would an experienced mafia player change their play in response to another player's accusations if they were town?
A) They wouldn't. Its a guilty conscience maneuver again, like she exhibited previously.

Just me posting that paragraph above is giving her an opportunity to step up her game. She now knows of another way I'm trying to pin her down. I think we can all agree that an experienced mafia player can/will evade the noose for quite some time. Without night info, (if the town even has a role that can garner night info), it may be hard to hang a Fferyllt on game play alone just because she is good.

Another note, if I do something that seems suspicious a couple of times, and somebody calls me out on it... it helps me identify them as actually scum hunting. Sure, scum might try to pin me up on something but I doubt they'd push hard to hang a townie on Day 1. Its too risky of a play in a game this size I feel, with the level of experience and involvement we are seeing. So, later on in the game I can look back at the people who thought I was suspicious and say to myself "Self, those folks are probably town as they were scumhunting in earnest on Day 1." But it doesn't mean I stop doing it... if it's working for me, why would I stop?

TL;DR - I'm confident that Fferyllt is scum. But the more I share at this stage, the more she'll just adapt her game play to appear more townish. (Well maybe not anymore since I just shared that she's doing it.)

Does anybody else have any original observations about why Fferyllt is or could be mafia? We've only had a couple people contribute unique observations to the thread in support of this theory.

[likeabauss]

I haven't been tunneled this aggressively in quite a while. bauss, your case is basically cobwebs from my perspective. There is literally nothing to refute when your argument is essentially that stuff I do is by definition scummy because I'm scum. Being effective is the best demonstration of alignment that I know how to do and that's what I'm focusing on.

Is this all you got from my posts against you? You're belittling my case against you as, "You're scum and you're doing scummy stuff." Really?

What is your definition of being effective? Ask questions about general concepts of game play? That's like an icebreaker game at a Mafiaholics Anonymous meeting. "Hi, I'm Fferyllt and I like town blocs. It's been 37 seconds since my last mafia post."

[likeabauss]

The non-conventional methods are what I'm asking about, specifically all the times you've asked someone to give reasons for their read with bribery that you'll then follow up with your reasons for a read on someone else.
Why don't you just give your reasons at that stage, because they shouldn't be effected by what someone's reasons on somebody different are

For starters, exaggerating and/or restating things incorrectly is always a scummy maneuver to me.

For clarity, I did that exactly ONCE. It was with my prime scum suspect in an attempt to garner some additional information from her. If you hadn't noticed, Fferyllt has been dodging a number of direct questions since I made my case against her. She asked for my thoughts on Kueshina/Sikon. I wanted an answer specifically on how she felt about Trollie. Horse trade ensues. Go back and re-read mine and Fferyllt posts from 170-179 for the exchange.

Why Trollie? I was lightly suspicious of Morthas before replacement, and I remain suspicious of Trollie. If I'm right about Fferyllt, and she is mafia, then her reads/interactions with my secondary suspect are helpful to me (as well as his interactions in response to her.) I was trying to develop content without tipping my hand.

[likeabauss]

Response

Most of my early game reads are based on nuances of communication, psychology, and logic. Mid to late game, I tend to switch over to interactions between players, vote patterns/analysis, but the reliance on the former components remains. We all play mafia differently, and I can appreciate that 100%. You and I have vastly different styles.

Sometimes my posts may seem denigrating, rude, or abrasive. Usually this is by design, to elicit a different response... like a response under duress. When heat is applied, some people reveal more of their true colors. That said, I do try to back it off if it makes the game less enjoyable for somebody (which it appears I may have done in this case with you.)

An example of nuance that piques my interest... you made mention of a

conversation

with Lynx about Sikon. There was very little content, as I pointed out, from either of you about Sikon. I reread both of your ISO's thoroughly, saw a couple very brief comments, and shared my analysis. It sounded as if you were making a mountain out of a molehill. (a full conversation vs a sentence.) In my experience, scum like to obfuscate by exaggerating, restating cases incorrectly, or generally muddying the waters. It seemed scummy, as I mentioned/narrated it, and your response did not pass my litmus test. I genuinely wondered if saying Sikon was a Freudian slip... if in fact you meant to say iamking or jasonwazza or somebody else.

As far as narrative, I can see your point. But that is my way of sharing my thoughts and reads based on my observations, digging, and analysis. Some of the concepts aren't easy to convey, so I give them context.

No need to tone down the snark with me though, I don't mind. Also, I still think you're mafia.

[likeabauss]

I'd still rather like to know why you think I'm scum, Trollie.

I'd like to hear anything from Trollie that resembles logic or reason for anything he has posted so far.

[likeabauss]

My memory goes off when reading the whole thread at once in some locations. Your other two bargaining moments (one of which you've already explained slightly) were to do with reasons for the same people.

You're dodging her questions more than she has been dodging yours.

You can call it dodging or whatever you want. In reality, I believe her to be scum and I don't think it wise to answer her every question. I think she's, steering the dialogue, fishing for info that will help her and her team, and in certain cases I may refuse to supply it by ignoring a question or train of thought. If YOU or somebody else would like me to answer or respond to anything she's asked of me, that is an entirely different story. So please feel free to ask or point me in the right direction.

[likeabauss]

Jasonwazza

I'll be honest there is something about this game that just makes it meh to read.

How does this fit in with your activity observation?

[likeabauss]

Also, if we can't/won't hang Fferyllt... I'm perfectly happy hanging Trollie for being absolutely useless.

[likeabauss]

VOTE: sikon327

Things of interest;

Way to fucking apologetic.
Plays the newb card a fair amount.
too much AtE
A lot of sitting the vote in the unvote area.
267 seems like some crap.

What do you make of my questions for him in post 32, his responses and what ensued there? It turned my read to town... just wondering if my compass is off kilter.

[likeabauss]

Hey Lynx - Your vote is still on Kueshina from way back early on in the day phase. Is that still where it belongs in your opinion?

[likeabauss]

Sikon, roll with me on Fferyllt. I'm pretty sure Kue is town. Lynx, you too.

For a comparison analysis, hanging Fferyllt over Kue is advantageous because:
Fferyllt is a more experienced player. Better/more experienced players hide their scum game well. An experienced player as scum, in a game of this size with waning involvement, can easily control the flow of info and conversation. Basically an experienced scum player is more dangerous to noob town than an experienced townie is helpful to a noob town. I'm thinking we have a mostly noob town here, and the mafia will be killing off any experienced town players in short order.

Plus I'm pretty sure Fferyllt is mafia and Kue is town.

Also, her short list for hanging includes the most vocal (active) scum hunters in this game. Me, caps, and Cheery. Doesn't that bother anybody else?

We need to hang somebody, and I'll derail the Kue wagon until I'm blue in the face because Fferyllt is a better tactical lynch even if you aren't sure what to do, or who is town/scum. BTW, I think Kue is town and Fferyllt is mafia. Did I say that yet? Should I say it again?

[likeabauss]

Also, Jason... There isn't enough support to push and hang Sikon today. At this point, we need to put our votes where they count, hang somebody, and get some info. We're going to end up in a no lynch otherwise.

Cheery, same thing... Doesn't look like enough support to hang me today. I appreciate you making a case and sticking to your guns, though.

Preview edit Jason... In case you havent been reading, I've laid out several examples of Fferyllts scuminess. Reread my ISO please. The experience piece is just an add on, and you and I will have to agree to disagree on the validity/usefulness of the tactic.

[likeabauss]

Cheery/IamKingDavid have been anything but vocal scumhunters, bauss. It's why they are currently in my list. Cheery can change that by getting into this game and doing shit.

Strongly disagree. Cheery replaced in and started slinging shit right away. He's got more genuine insights in 14 posts than half of the players in the game.

[likeabauss]

Wow, that happened really fast. Give me a couple hours and I'll respond to everybody's questions.

[likeabauss]

Case against Fferyllt:

Please note, not all items are well explained as much of this is straight from my personal notes. I'll clarify anything that isn't clear upon request.

Non Pro-Town Play:

1) No scum hunting to speak of early game. As soon as I called her out on this she rectified it immediately. Most of her early game posts read like a narrator telling a story, not a character in the story. Contributions are mostly about game play/mechanics, consistent with an IC role, but not a townie trying to hang bad guys.
2) Asking questions about game play mechanics and opinions of certain strategies doesn't help find scum. Things like:

What are your thoughts on the formation of town blocs?

What do you think are the advantages and disadvantages of full, ranked reads lists?

It's adding content, without finding scum, IMO. Adding content is great so long as you're looking for bad guys too. At this point, I didn't feel that was the case.
3) Complete ambiguity in her reads. She's non-committal until something pushes her or somebody catches wagon momentum. Posts vacillate between suspecting somebody, but leaning town on the same player. After I call her out, she lashes out in 142, 143, and 144 with 3 "cases" for scum... weaksauce at best. Now, look forward to her post in 312. There isn't a single strong scum read in it, nor her original stuff. She's opening the door and waiting to see which wagons will catch steam. She hopped right in on my wagon when I started catching votes. She said she'd vote Kue, with the disclaimer that she thinks Kue is town (WHY WOULD YOU BE OKAY HANGING A TOWNIE IF YOU HAVE SUSPECTS? TOWN FAIL.) There haven't been any other wagons, she's not pushing for anybody, she apparently doesn't care who hangs... unless it's imking, jason, lynx (posts 142-144) or me-bauss, cAPSLOCK, cheery, or Kue (post 312.) Clearly, she doesn't care who we hang as long as it isn't her or Sikon or Trollie. Everybody else is game.
4) Overstatement of contributions to the Town side. Example:

What are your thoughts about the convo Lynx and I have had about Kueshina and Sikon?

In an effort to appear town, and to be playing pro-town, scum will point to something they did as if it was a bigger contribution than it was. I explained this in thread.
5) Psycho teaser bait I set + response:

In post 139, fferyllt wrote:
Substance and quantity is a little lacking in some quarters still, and it's primarily experienced players who seem to be holding back. I'm done waiting for content.

"I'm done waiting for content." Translation: HERE COMES THE BOOM

indeed.

There was no Boom in her response. It was a whimper. Look back and see her "Boom." You mean to tell me that an experienced pro mafia player lays out their best cases/reads and that's all we can expect? Nope. Scum.
6)

Agree on 85 and 97. I may be too much a part of the topic to judge re 81.

Agrees with Trollie when he offers his proof on caps after ffery specifically asks him for the reason, but never gives her own reads or reasoning. The IC is claiming Town reads on two players, shows no proof of her own hunting or clearing?

Lynx broke it, and stated it well, so I'll just share quote.

Guilty Conscience Maneuvers:

Concept explained:

It smells fishy to me, mostly because good guys (town) operate under the confidence of their innocence. Bad guys (scum) are forced to mask their guilt and put on a show. This subtle difference changes the nuance of some things. One of the things I look for is people who are overly defensive (which you've exhibited in this maneuver) because scum feel the need to defend and keep the heat off. A town player knows their innocence and wont be as touchy or knee jerk on defense, especially against an accusation made against a completely different player.

1) Defending against an accusation made against somebody else. See post 6 + 8.
2) Change in Play - Reactionary to Accusations - I call her out, she changes style. Good guys don't change the way they play because somebody calls them out on it and says its shady. See post 146 for details.
3) IC post - cAPSLOCK mentioned it initially, I had noticed it. In another game here on MS I picked up on a similar nuance. Please note, this is NUANCE, but it supports the guilty conscience maneuvers.

Straight Scum:

1) Control of conversation/information - Check thread activity. Huge post count. Lots of posts, not much scum hunting. Adding content without scum hunting. For IC portion of role, fine. For Townie role, no good. Look at changes of conversation direction, leading questions (opening doors), and constant interjection/restatement of positions.
2) Appeal to emotion - after my attacks/tunneling, direct responses to me drip with emotional appeals.
3) Waffling: Back and forth on reads, non committal, following the leader/momentum.
4) Buttering up/Buddying up to players suspicious of her: cAPSLOCK, Me, Lynx. See post 146 for explanation.

Glaring hypocrisies/Inconsistencies:

1)

IME, I tend to either pick up votes in the early phases of day 1 or go more or less unnoticed until there's more data to work with. I don't usually key in on specific posts for scum reads. It's more about body of work.

Then:

Post 313 was the tipping point.

Tipping point? Out of nowhere in your 312, you post me on your suspects list. Previous to that, you were reading me town. Is it body of work when it suits you, but single post when it suits you?
2) Her Meta dive on me goes from, "Looks scummy" to "Now looks town" to "Oh, he's aware of it, so it's null."
Nothing changed on my end. I know how I play, I'm cognizant of my game. But you're opening the door here, or trying to paint a picture of something that isn't. This whole Meta thing is useless, as I stated previously:

Regarding your argument about my meta, and refuting it:
In post 73, likeabauss wrote:
I'm not one to dive too deeply into meta history as it can be changed by an experienced player, or maintained to illustrate consistency and pseudo alignment.

I don't put much stock into meta reads (I know lots of people here do though.) I just prefer to focus the discussion/energy elsewhere. You can dig into old games of all the players all you want. I don't think it matters much, for the reason I posted above. A good player can/will adjust their meta or maintain it as they see fit.

I mean, really? Frequently in this game you do meta dives under the guise that "Meta helps" then later you say "If the player knows about their own meta it its null." And not a single one of your meta dives has yielded you a strong read, you stay non-committal. You're all over the map on this. We're playing mafia, of course an experienced player is aware of their meta. I even use that point in my argument against you in 211. Good players are hard to hang when they are mafia.
3) You say read lists are dangerous, then lo and behold! A READ LIST in Post 310.

End Logic, Insert Narrative

I have more, but it's really messy. I need to clean up my notes, but I just don't have a whole lot of time.

The bottom line here is: I'm town and I think Fferyllt is mafia. I strongly believe that the point of this game is for townies to hang mafia. So, I'm trying to hang my number one suspect. That's how I play.

But, I'll be damned if you're going to ignore everything I've posted and say, "Bauss is scummy because he wants to hang Fferyllt because she's experienced." Either read the things people post, in this game that requires reading/writing/thinking, or replace out. More than half of this post is things I've already shared... But I add on a "tactical" consideration that is completely consistent with my position, the current wagons, deadlines, and people freak out.

I can post answers to other questions later tonight, and probably tomorrow as well. There's a few things I'd like to respond to that Trollie/cAPS/etc mentioned.

For now, if you read nothing else, read this:

I'm fighting to avoid hanging somebody I think is town, and pushing to hang somebody I think is scum.
Fferyllt is okay with hanging somebody she thinks is town, and isn't pushing to hang anybody.

[likeabauss]

@likeabauss:

this is so not true.  (a) an experienced town player way helps town.  (b) this is a bad reason to lynch someone, especially on D1.  if on D3 u have no good leads and ur still paranoid about an experienced player playing a good scum game, then MAYBE u should consider that lynch (c) you need to weigh your read on the person against this analysis, which means (1) since I have a town read on FF that would be a dumb lynch and (2) since it is more likely for her to be town than scum, its stupid to lynch on the basis of "oh no if she is scum she is gonna beat us up" (d) you say urself that scum will kill off experienced townies (not true, but lets assume u really feel that way).  that means its stupid to lynch FF if you think she would be the obvious target of the NK.

I'm not saying this is a general rule of thumb that I would apply across the board.  I said specifically that for this game, considering the waning involvement in this game, the noobiness, my read of Fferyllt, my read of Kue, and what is going on.  Look at the activity here... Fferylt is literally commanding the conversation with triple the post count of the next most active poster.  So to respond specifically:
a)  Yes, in general I agree.  But Fferyllt's play this game hasn't been very pro-town IMO (I know you and I disagree on this.)
b)  All by itself, yes.  But that's not my only reason.  Also, at the time I posted those things, there were two viable wagons (Kue and Fferyllt.)  I'd be stupid or lame to sit back and let the majority hang somebody that I believe is town over somebody I believe is mafia.  This point is merely a tactical consideration, in addition to a case I already laid out, not a crux point on which I'm advocating a lynch.  This is a distinct difference.
c)  I'm confident in my read on both her and Kue.  So the tactical consideration is to push to hang the scum, not sit by (avoid making waves), and let my town read get hung.  I made a post/point earlier about conviction. 
d)  Scum will take a lot into consideration in making a kill, of course.  If I were scum, given the flow of this game, Its a reasonable strategy to kill the experienced contributors and leave the noobs floundering... the only exception would be trying to hit a PR.  So, in that scenario (keeping in mind that I believe Fferyllt to be scum), its reasonable to assume that killing the experienced contributors would be a viable strategy.  Nowhere in that scenario is Fferyllt an experienced townie though, I think she's scum.  The focal point of this scenario is: I'm worried that if we dont lynch her, it'll be easy for her (as scum) to control the game of non active, lightly contributing players after offing the few invested/experienced/active townies. If I'm wrong about Kue being town, I don't see Kue running away with the game (no disrespect Kue).

[likeabauss]

so let's not lynch her and see what happens tonight.

I'm ready to vote bauss... i still have a gut town feeling on him but he's not helpful cuz he's stupidly tunneling and hes being scummy enough that I will want him dead before the end of the game anyway

I'm okay with this, but I think Kue is town. So I don't like that wagon. And we have a deadline fast approaching with no other viable lynch candidate.

My next big question mark is Sikon. I'm null/town reads on everybody else.

[likeabauss]

bauss,

If I were scum and if you are town, I'd leave both fferyllt and bauss in the game so it could fill up with our 1v1 and leave a pile of chaff in the air to hide behind.

I still am not liking cheery's level of involvement. Lynx needs a really close look tomorrow. One thing that she and cheery both have done is put down votes without putting much effort into seeing them through to lynch, and had little but friendly dialog with their other scum read.

^^ consider that my last will and testament if I'm dead tomorrow, btw.

This is the most clear and real post you've made all game, IMO.

At this point, I'm L1. Somebody state their intent to hammer and Ill claim appropriately. I'll also leave a full list of my reads/questions before lynch that folks can look back at after I'm confirmed town. Just give me a little time, as it's a holiday and I've got some running around to do.

[likeabauss]

Top scum reads: Fferyllt, Sikon
Slight scum?/need development: Lynx, Trollie
Null: Jason, Cheery
Town: Kueshina, cAPSLOCK

Take it for what it's worth.

[likeabauss]

You can say all you want now homie. In thirteen hours or less, everybody will know I'm town, but I won't be able to say anything. You have any questions for me or just snark?

[likeabauss]

I started in on Sikon very early in the game. Backed off when I latched onto Fferyllt and wanted to see what associations I could observe between the two.

You'll remember that Sikon came back with a revenge vote and pressure on me after I pushed a bit. Later, he backed off me when I let up on him and pushed on Fferyllt. The rage post he made didn't feel genuine... I mean, there was literally no real pressure or angst to warrant a nuclear reaction of that level. It didn't add up. Then the apology came immediately afterwards. It rang like he was attempting to mimic the rage that whats his face pulled early and then other players got town reads as a result. Too forced. (I'm iPad only so quoting/searching is hard at this point.)

I let it lie, because I wanted to see what shook out and I had a better target for the time. Later watch him dive back into me when I catch momentum. He plays the noob card a few times, restates other people's positions incorrectly and obfuscates. Appeals to emotions. Etc etc. it wasn't enough for me to push him over Fferyllt, and I needed more, so I stayed on my number 1 suspect. Also, I remember a few circular logic trains of thought, some WIFOM.

Sikon - For reference, I'm not putting on a show. Last words from townies and scum alike are very helpful to town. Rather than play pro-town, imagine I am town, and try to get some info about other players... All you care about was inserting some discrediting snark and hearing my case on you. Like I said, I know I'm town and soon you all will too. I can only hope that my contiributions and subsequent hanging will help town win. I made my case for Kue being town. I also believe that cAPS is town.

Morthas subbing out so early seemed like a scum maneuver. Theres more pressure on a scum player to be present and contributing because in a 2 person scum game of this size, youve got to carry your weight for the team. Trollie came in as useless, until we starts saying "You suck, gonna hang you for sucking." boom, then a playstyle change. He sets up the "I don't want to hang bauss because he's town" line, then is actually ready to hang bauss. Good guys don't hang other good guys. They try to hang bad guys. Hang suspects. Hang lurkers/non contributors. But, he can point back and say "guy was annoying, I thought he was town, I hung him" which is a perfect defense and totally logical given his play. Either way, not enough right now to make a case but it's suspicious and warrants a careful eye.

Lynx is active lurking I feel like. Couple good posts, but mostly building on existing themes. Not much original, no real digging. If lynx is experienced and savvy, I could see this as a very good scum game playstyle for her. But again, not much content so it needs exploration.

[likeabauss]

I cant read Jason for beans, but I would err on a slight town read. You have to discredit this position though because I really don't have a developed impression at all. A few pro town maneuvers, but overall a lackluster scum hunting iniative. So null or slight town. Could just be noob sauce town.

Cheery I'm null on because he hasn't really had an opportunity to get into a groove. Seemed like he was getting there in his case on me, which rang as genuine to me. Let's face it, my play is much different than the norm here. I'm reckless, and I do some shady shit to try and get reads. He did a few shady things, restating/exaggerating, etc but his response seemed reasonable. He did sub in and had lots to catch up on so I get it. Overall Null.

[likeabauss]

Is it bad strategy to defend yourself when you are l-2? As far as I can tell likeabauss is doing a good time building a case against another player but is not spending much time talking about being l-2?

It is not a rhetorical question.

Skipped this before. There isn't really a case against me. It's more of a convenience hang. We are almost at deadline, and need to hang somebody. I'm not being hung because of flip flops, a slip, or anything scummy. I'm being hung because I made a case I believe in and stuck with it. There's no defense to be made. My reasoning and logic has been laid out and I've answered all questions honestly and openly. Conviction, like I stated earlier in the game.

[likeabauss]

also, jason couldn't be further from newbsauce town.

And I disagree about cheery not having an opportunity to get into a groove. I've replaced into games with far less time to deadline, gotten up to speed, and had a positive impact on the day and on the game.

If Jason isn't nooby, then I'd go slight scum instead of slight town. But again, I don't have a developed read so you have to discount that.

Agree to disagree on Cheery then. There's something to be said about reading continually and getting a feel for the pace of a game. That is mostly lost on a re-read after subbing in.

Show me something Morthas said or did that was town motivated? I don't remember a single thing.

Look at the time stamp of Sikons rage post and then the apology? Wasn't it really soon after?

[likeabauss]

Looks like 14 mins from rage to apology. Without anybody prodding. Seems planned to me.

He also follows my lead on you, then flips back to me? Chasing momentum. Has lots of votes, and ambiguity in direction. It's high peaks and low valleys... Feels scummy to me more than nooby.

[likeabauss]

On that Morthas exchange, I disagree because "stirring up trouble" is a perfectly viable scum hunting playstyle. I might be off because him and I never got to finish that conversation and my suspicion lingered as a result... But he didn't do enough to earn a town read in my book. Also, derailing lines of questioning/digging always feels scummy to me. Why not wait/watch and see what shakes out? Why break something up before it develops? You can always go back to it later... But steering the conversation away from something and towards something else never sits right with me.

[likeabauss]

Sikon, couple things. I don't like to show all my cards. It's bad play, IMO. So yes, I don't always update people on my reads as the game progresses. I do however like to close a day with a brief synopsis of strong reads so people can look back and piece together wtf I was thinking/doing.

At that point I leaned town, but then all your other wtfery pushed me back to suspicious. You're either a loose cannon townie or flailing mafia. Either way, you're all over the map. Could just be noob I guess. But it's not protown to flip flop, and behave erractically if you're relying on a logic based playstyle (which it appeared to me you were.) Also, once I leaned town on you, you backed off of me and then started to build on my cases. This always comes off as scummy to me. You backed my case on Fferyllt, then flipped off it. Then jumped back on me once I caught momentum. It's wild and inconsistent.

I never said you'd be sorry, I just said you were wasting energy on snark instead of protown opportunities. Noob or scum? You tell me.

Somebody needs to hang. I stuck my neck out in support of my opinions/reads. It flipped around on me. It's part of the game, I'm not bitter or dramatic about it.

[likeabauss]

Trying to derail me from stirring things up. If somebody calls you out on something, a lot of people stop doing that something. Maybe I was questioning a scum buddy. Maybe he didn't want me shitting up the thread. Maybe it just looked shady to him. But to me, his play though short, felt lurky. And it read like he was implying I should stop "stirring things up", like its a bad thing.

[likeabauss]

You can't actively keep yourself out of it. That's a stupid insinuation on his part. By the very nature of stirring the pot, you attract attention. Keeping yourself out of it involves lurking or avoiding confrontation. Asking people questions, digging, and making arguments for and against people isn't staying out of it. Sticking your neck out to avoid hanging a town read, isn't staying out of it. If I was trying to stay out of it, I wouldn't have kept pushing on hanging you and not hanging Kue. I wouldnt be in the noose either.. I ccould've just strung up Kue or at least stayed quiet and laid back.

Show me where my behavior looked like I was trying to stay out of it? I don't believe an example exists.

[likeabauss]

There no friggim way my question to Kue at that point derailed imking. It was an RVS from him. He wasn't pursuing anything. I was opening a new line of questioning to Kue. Why did Kue make a big deal out of an RVS and cop a defense? Totally unrelated.

And no way. The town reads as a scum tendency post was directly related to my conversation with Sikon at the time. I suggested that early town reads could be a form of buddying or a scummy tendency in my first post as I began my questioning to him. I wanted to explain the scenario and clarify because his response to me didn't seem to understand the point.

You're taking those posts out of context or deliberating misstating what was said. Go back through those exchanges.

[likeabauss]

Good grief. Why do people sign up to play a game that requires reading, writing, and thinking when they don't like to do either?

I'm vanilla town. Good luck guys!

[likeabauss]

Are twilight posts allowed here?

On re-read, I'd look a bit harder at Jason. He was the one that originally misstated my reason for wanting to lynch Fferyllt after my post and started the momentum on my wagon.

[likeabauss]

I think cAPS is just retarded or disinterested. Mafia wouldn't hammer without a claim if they could go no lynch. So just dumb town play there.

People, you have to read what other people write in this game. Don't restate, misquote, or otherwise obfuscate. If you have a question, ask for clarity... Don't fly off the handle like you just won the lottery.

Scum needs to kill PR's and trusted active townies... So keep that in mind as you analyze night moves. Not really any trusted townies at this point, and enough wtfery from me to play off of. Plus the cAPS hammer. They can take a shot in the dark at hitting a role holder and let the chaos deliver a mislynch on D2. Use your brains. If you're a townie and you aren't making time to post here, sub out. Seriously.

Fferyllt, you cant ignore the context and you have to consider the motivation behind the action. If it isn't clear, ask. If the response doesn't make sense, then you might be on to something... But don't get ahead of the logic.

[likeabauss]

Well, if you are town Fferyllt, then focus on Trollie, Lynx, Jason.

[likeabauss]

Somebody else get on Trollie then.

I re-read Sikon a bunch. Could just be noob play, and/or a younger player... Like late teens, early 20's. If you're town, and Sikon is town, Kue town and Caps town... You've got a short list to sort through.

[likeabauss]

Yeah, congrats scum team. Nicely done!

I was stuck on Fferyllt even in hell, lol. Tunnel fail.