Newbie 1389 Trouble in River City Game Over Scum win

[Cheery Dog]

I think this is the longest catch-up wall I've done upon replacing into a game, well done on having that much for me to discuss I guess. (yeah old stuff deal with it)

There seems to be plenty of flailing around going on, and I'll be glad to take part. I suppose if people weren't rvsing I'd most likely try to start something...

What made you unable to start something anyway? People RVSing shouldn't stop you from starting something.
Also what makes you happy to flail (aka not progress with the game?)

As for how to start day 1, depending on the setup: massclaim, some PRs claim to get doc/watcher protection but others say hidden, hypocopping, in dethy and similar everyone outs their reports, if there's a bulletproof the get told that they get shot, they claim if they got shot, if there's no bulletproof but there's a doc and no kill, sometimes they tell everyone who they saved, etc.
In this particular setup, I suspect that if any of those strategies were worthwhile, people would be doing them instead of the RVS. Our PRs are safer not claiming (with the possible exception of the BP, but in the newbie games I've read noone asks for BP claims d1), and it's day start; noone was saved from a kill and no one has any reports.

I don't think any games on this site work well with day 1 mass claims, unless they're dethy type games where everyone investigates and they're actually designed for the massclaim.
Some could work, but it ruins the fun of the game in my opinion. I also play elsewhere where they have open communication and mass claims happen via that, the breaking of setups there doesn't trill me.

My main problem is that up to 3 weeks worth of day 1 gives me way too much time for second guessing.

What you giving misleading information on the length of day in this game for? bad IC.

Since it was RVS, I didn't have any better leads. Even in the RVS, ISTM that you should try to make cases that are better than nothing, or at least not worse than nothing, and to me imkingdavid's case looked worse than random, voting me for something that was, if anything, a towntell (at least, that's how it seemed at the time; as sikon327 pointed out scum do have an incentive to stretch out the confirmation phase.).

When people confirm can never actually be a scum or town tell - there's way too much variance in it. I guess you could force a meta issue with it by always confirming earlier with one alignment, but that's against the spirit of the game in the same way someone always replacing out if they draw scum.

Scum know who is town, therefore they can/will be correct when it suits them (ie, later they can point back and say "Hey, my read on that guy was town... now he's dead, I was right, I'm a good guy.") Also, they can build credibility with town members by leaning/suggesting that they are town... especially with some more novice players. Very often a town player will feel validated like they are doing good, when somebody else thinks they are town. (In my experience, it's more important to find scum than for other people to think you are town. Scum will often NK the most trusted town person to maintain control.) There are a thousand other scenarios, but these are just a few, and we are of course exploring all that we can on Day 1.

Until we've had flips of a few of them (and then the reactions, if they're saying it like your example then obvscum, as that fact alone is never worth a town read)
The main thing to watch out of is how they're downgrading these leaning townreads when the lynch isn't quite happening for them.

Looking over the votes, I notice that 2 wagons have gone to 2/5 votes(on cAPSLOCK and likeabauss), and sikon327 was on both of them. There's also likeabauss's case against him, and the way Morthas copied sikon327's vote on likeabauss makes me wonder if Morthas and sikon723 are scumpartners, although it also seems possible that likeabauss and sikon723 are scumpartners distancing themselves. I'll UNVOTE: fferyllt and VOTE: sikon723.

I like this thought process even though the logic is flawed with only 2 people on wagons - general townposting by Kueshina here.

This may be a meta thing, so two wolves typically start a wagon or copy each others' votes so hard here?

They generally won't do as such during day 1, but everything is possible, it would be just pushing where they feel town is weakest if they're joining a wagon directly after each other.

Some day i want to see a game with all the people that refuse to RVS and see how slow it starts off.

Only if they also avoid RQS and bold statements about how they're going to play the game.

The other ways to start the game are less effective (General conversation, RQS, No Lynching for examples that i can think of.) and generally all end up producing a lot of fluff or useless content that is alignment null.

RVS usually produces a heap of fluff itself. (RQS is obviously the worst offender)

Fferyllt - let me clarify. I understand the point you are making about your play style, history, meta, etc. My question to you is why did you bring it up in the first place? I made mention of a different player doing a similar thing, as part of a line of questioning to that player, and you chimed in with a defense for YOUR actions. I never mentioned you doing it, neither did anyone else that I can see.

It smells fishy to me, mostly because good guys (town) operate under the confidence of their innocence. Bad guys (scum) are forced to mask their guilt and put on a show. This subtle difference changes the nuance of some things. One of the things I look for is people who are overly defensive (which you've exhibited in this maneuver) because scum feel the need to defend and keep the heat off. A town player knows their innocence and wont be as touchy or knee jerk on defense, especially against an accusation made against a completely different player.

This is only true for some players - how big a kneejerk reaction is generally depends on what the actual case is and how much sense the it makes to the player in question.
If I poke your knee it would do something completely different to if I hit your knee with a sledgehammer.

I've had a look through his previous games -- there are two of them, one newbie, one mini normal, and in both of them, he's town. And in neither of those games does he display the hesitance to vote for possible scum that is present in this game. So why has he suddenly become cautious about voting? The way I see it, he either had some kind of epiphany in-between his previous game and this one, or he is merely playing differently now because he now has a different role -- that of the town's enemy.

As has been said always the games were over 3 years old - but this doesn't mean you just have to exclude them completely - the general personality of a person should stay the same (even over such a large time frame), which is what you actually look for when making meta references.

If the setup has lots of different town roles, massclaiming d1 can be a good strategy. As an extreme case, if every townie has a different role then each scum can only counterclaim 1 townie, and all uncced townies are clear (if the setup isn't randomized). In setups where private communication is allowed, if massclaiming would be an advantage except mafia would gain too much from knowing who the powerroles are, having a confirmed innocent to massclaim to can be worth losing the doc.

This is practically why townies don't have different roles in every game (there's the occassional role madness game here that does) - winning by breaking setups doesn't have the same level of fun as scumhunting. (and in games where every town member as a different role/name, scum will usually be given fakeclaims to stop this from happening) Though if you the one doing the actual breaking you get some enjoyment I guess.

I'll UNVOTE: sikon723... and now I'm not sure whether to vote cAPSLOCK or fferyllt. I suppose lack of scumhunting from a newbie could just be lack of experience scumhunting, whereas lack of scumhunting from an IC is more suspicious, so I'll VOTE: fferyllt

Do you pick up any opinions on alignments with what they have posted? Voting on not scumhunting rarely works in my opinion (maybe because people call me out on it because I like to ask questions without much follow-up - because I don't think they need it, but people are weird in expecting more), is there any posts themselves that lack this scumhunting that shows scum motivation?

MASS CLAIMING IN A SEMI-OPEN SETUP WITH A MAX OF 2 TOWN PR'S IS NOT PRO-TOWN

This seems oddly familiar. (with something that's only valid day 1 - which at least we're in day 1 when you're yelling at people this game)

Is that IC post personal boilerplate?

Is it bad that I got a read from it? am I not allowed to do that?

You're allowed to get reads from absolutely anything, it's sometimes possible to get them from people's confirm posts. Though I can't get a read from that post, the timing of it does give me slight leans towards scum though, as if she forgot she wanted to do one and then figured doing it later would give towncred.

On meta here is one thing i find to be true.

Only Ever Use Meta To Disprove A Scum Tell

Meaning don't use meta to make someone scummy, only use it to disprove someone being scummy.

Cause usually when you use meta to make scummy it ends up being wrong.

I will catch up on this game in a minute.

That form of meta use sucks as well - players won't correct their play if they keep being cleared by others meta.
Meta is only a tool to ice cases and still then only to be used sparingly.

oh, no way scum would risk talking about reads from an IC post. He'd stray clear away from that if he had any doubts about its legitimacy.

These contradict - if he was scum he'd know the alignment of ffery and therefore the legitimacy would be known to him - whereas doubts may be coming from the town side of it.

TheTrollie - I thought the guy playing your role before you was pretty scummy. Have you reread the thread in more detail like you were saying? If yes, please to be sharing some knowledge so that we can either hang you for being scum or move you to the Probably Townie list.

I don't recall seeing you mention a Morthas suspicion, can you go into detail about why he was scummy?

First of all. Unless she is somewhat obsessive I do not see any reason to be so clear here. It sounds a lot like "I am here to help you in spite of the fact that I

may actually be scum

. No really. don't be mad at the end... and know I will be fair as an IC anyway."

Then later:

IC Intro

I am playing for my team to win, though, so please treat me with the same skepticism in my non-IC posting that you treat everyone else.

Another nod towards awareness that she is not necessarily town. But why? Why admonish us not once but TWICE to remember that she is our advocate at the site in spite of the fact she may not be in the game.

She doth protest too much. It's really that simple.

And I asked her if this was boiler plate to the end of understanding if it had context in this game. A google search for these exact wordsturns up this: No results found for "All of our roles were assigned randomly".

I asked

Is that IC post personal boilerplate? Is it bad that I got a read from it? am I not allowed to do that?

and she responded:

Yeah, it's personal, though I looked at a few IC posts by others in thinking about what to include. Some IC's put in a lot of do this don't do that in theirs, but it doesn't look like this is a crowd that needs to be warned not to self-hammer or hammer someone without a chance to role-claim.

Since this is her first IC I think she just wrote it. It is not boiler plate yet... and I bet we see it change in the future. The fact she did not address the direct question of whether or not I am allowed to get (and discuss) a read from it makes me even more suspicious.

FWIW I am grateful for the fact the site does this in the newbie area and I feel a little bad for getting such a strong scum read from it.

A lot of ICs have the same type of thing in other speeches about the role distbrutions and suchlike. (or maybe it was mods opening posts - the ones I remember don't actually say anything about it (not even my own) - but that doesn't change that it is true facts about her being just as likely scum as the rest of us in distribution stage.

I believe you to be scum. I have many reasons that I will share when the time is right. For now, I will wait patiently while others weigh in and share their opinions.

What say you all? Is fferyllt scum or am I crazy?

Why are you coninsually waiting for other people's opinions?

However cAPSLOCK is still a good vote, he's vote is based on lurking, not based on scumhunting.

Is your own vote just based on a vote based on lurking?
Which is basically actually more useless that capslock's vote.

That's two people who misunderstood my post about bauss. To clarify, bauss was my strongest scum read up to the point where he started making a case on me. He went from indirect to direct stance of attack, though I think his case is mostly rehashing others' comments.

Is he still a scum read?

One thing about epic mafia, though - the games happen fast. I dunno about mass claims. I might hit up a friend who plays there and ask.

I've been playing there recently - they do massclaims via whispers (open communication) in all games that have those enabled, and sometimes others as well.

Is the pace not normal of newbie games? I know someone playing on the main part of the site, his game's moving much faster, but the post numbers in the new section all look lower in comparison.

Game speed is different for every game, will depend on the players and such like. I think we're averaging slightly over a page a day, which I think is the average speed for day 1.
(if you want more posts in a day, then you can either hire some people that post heaps or join larges that often have 5+ pages in a day)

First posts are interesting. having confirmation in-thread kind of dilutes the value of first posts in terms of seeing what a player brings into a game. But, in general town bring themselves, their questions and their desire to figure out other players. Scum bring their preparations and game faces they put on in the QT thread.

That's why you start discussing things earlier when it's confirm in thread - there's nothing stopping anyone from asking questions then. (and it should help you with your anti-RVS stance. - newbie 1297 is an example of getting the game moving early. (and mostly skipping rvs)

I'm talking myself into a scum read.

What do you mean by this?

I guess that's your post for the day, bauss. Would kinda like to get into conversational mode with you at some point in this game.

What are your thoughts about the convo Lynx and I have had about Kueshina and Sikon?

eww not conversational mode again, I'll have to somehow get non-blocked vig powers to actually kill it.

Share your analysis of Trollie with us, and I'll respond with my analysis of Kue?

and then there's this bargaining thing again, which I don't like at all.

UNVOTE: ?VOTE: likeabauss

[Cheery Dog]

Some of your reads/implied reads confuse me.

Most of them are implied, and I'm not even sure which way with those.

I guess I can actually put them into factual reads so you don't have to try and figure out what I'm implying.
Overall, Jason, Lynx, Kues are town reads. cAPS, trollie and shinox are nullish. You're probably my second suspect with buass obviously being my suspect.

[Cheery Dog]

Why do you have jason leaning town? I've thought that aside from his all-but-tunneling cAPSLOCK, he's contributed little in the way of scumhunitng/reads and prior to Thursday or Friday he'd been a lurksack.

His rage at being called out in less than 24 hours seemed slightly town motivated. Plus I don't think I've actually seen him get angry as scum in past history - that's not much to go on, and I think I'm going to have to actually watch him as last time we met I tunnelled him incessantly.

I'm still not liking his cAPS vote, but not bad enough that it would ruin an otherwise fine townread.

The fact is this, you having to wait for someone else to vote, to vote me, is scummy and opportunistic as fuck.

No one else has voted you?

There is a point of opportunism when the person he quoted before voting actually has a town read on you, but I can see how he didn't realise that at the time since I never mentioned that until afterwards.

Actually I probably should be leaving you at null because my mind is trying to mput the read on you because meta, when it probably doesn't actually mean what I think it means.

[Cheery Dog]

Also, take into consideration that at the time, we had a number of players who weren't posting much. I like to try and draw people into the game, so sometimes I throw out a curve ball and see who swings. You'll note I've tried to engage a few different people by non-conventional methods this game. (specifically Kueshina, cAPSLOCK, Fferyllt, and JasonWazza.) If you want me to clarify on any of those instances, I'm happy to.

The non-conventional methods are what I'm asking about, specifically all the times you've asked someone to give reasons for their read with bribery that you'll then follow up with your reasons for a read on someone else.
Why don't you just give your reasons at that stage, because they shouldn't be effected by what someone's reasons on somebody different are

[Cheery Dog]

The non-conventional methods are what I'm asking about, specifically all the times you've asked someone to give reasons for their read with bribery that you'll then follow up with your reasons for a read on someone else.
Why don't you just give your reasons at that stage, because they shouldn't be effected by what someone's reasons on somebody different are

For starters, exaggerating and/or restating things incorrectly is always a scummy maneuver to me.

For clarity, I did that exactly ONCE. It was with my prime scum suspect in an attempt to garner some additional information from her. If you hadn't noticed, Fferyllt has been dodging a number of direct questions since I made my case against her. She asked for my thoughts on Kueshina/Sikon. I wanted an answer specifically on how she felt about Trollie. Horse trade ensues. Go back and re-read mine and Fferyllt posts from 170-179 for the exchange.

Why Trollie? I was lightly suspicious of Morthas before replacement, and I remain suspicious of Trollie. If I'm right about Fferyllt, and she is mafia, then her reads/interactions with my secondary suspect are helpful to me (as well as his interactions in response to her.) I was trying to develop content without tipping my hand.

My memory goes off when reading the whole thread at once in some locations. Your other two bargaining moments (one of which you've already explained slightly) were to do with reasons for the same people.

You're dodging her questions more than she has been dodging yours.

[Cheery Dog]

And no response. I think your experiential meta on me is pretty mixed. I left this comment alone while the vengeball game was in progress, but since it is ended, I'm coming back to it. In our first game, Donner Party, you were convinced enough of my scumminess after a day 1 where I wound up with about 2 town reads, 2 scum reads and a pile of null reads that you targeted me for your vig kill.

My alignment in that game is a matter of record now.

In the vengeball game you modded, I was much more aggressive, but given how quickly the first lynch happened (with very little input from me and my hydra partner unfortunately) I had to get aggressive or town would be in a no-win situation after the next lynch.

Both styles of play are well within the space where my town game lives.

What do you think of jason's continued low level of engagement in this game since he was out of that game?

It worries me. So does your reaction to it.

I haven't done anything about your meta this game or even looked at your styles from the two games. (I try not to use meta from hydra posting ever anyway - unless it's for the same hydra, separating who posted what is annoying for meta purposes even when you are signing your posts)

I've been trying to work out if Jason is just being slightly inactive regardless of alignment since seeing him disappear and lose vengeball, but in all the recent completed games I found of his he'd died night 1, which was before the disappearing spree.

[Cheery Dog]

What did you mean by this?

Actually I probably should be leaving you at null

because my mind is trying to mput the read on you because meta

, when it probably doesn't actually mean what I think it means.

That was in regards to Jason.

[Cheery Dog]

What did you mean by this?

Actually I probably should be leaving you at null

because my mind is trying to mput the read on you because meta

, when it probably doesn't actually mean what I think it means.

That was in regards to Jason.

and that the last game I played with him I tunnelled on him with some of the stuff he has done here. I still find it scummy, but from the previous game I disregarded it and I'm just overly confused.

[Cheery Dog]

Seems to me several players are fading back into the lurk. Including the mod a little. . How often are vote counts usually done?

They're meant to be done at least daily.

[Cheery Dog]

Cheery's catch-up post 183 is pretty long for such a short game thread. He commented it may be his longest catch up post ever, which given the thread length strikes an odd note. He was also pretty indirect about most of his reads. I pointed this out, and he clarified his reads in post 195.

Most of the time I don't bother reading. (you'll probably note that there isn't actually that much useful stuff in that catch up post - I've probably left those out previous times. (my previous record was 5 quotes) I probably did quote more there because to me 9 pages is still early game.

[Cheery Dog]

For all of the effort I'm putting into my posts, it doesn't seem that they're actually contributing effectively towards the hunt for scum at the moment. I am frustrated by my inability to have a meaningful impact on the game at the moment. This frustration is clouding my judgement, and causing me to act in a way that doesn't seem to be helpful to the interests of the town. It seems that other people here have a better idea of how to scumhunt than I do, so I am just going to step out of their way, let them do their thing, learn from their example, and hopefully come back strong once I better understand how this game is played, if not by the end of this game, then in future games that I am involved in.

I believe you could carry on attempting to hunt in your own style, I probably haven't commented much as I haven't seen where exactly to comment in arguments and suchlike I don't have strong reads on the people involved.

But I now do have a strong town read on you after that rage post. I guess I may have another look, but nonetheless just stopping hunting helps less that seemingly hunting badly.
(even if it's just on how people are attacking you and how that may help reads on them later in the game)

[Cheery Dog]

let's vote kues now
VOTE: kues

Have you explained this one, or is that that they haven't been here for 12 days?

...hmm I think I might need to prod the mod again.

According to the last votecount I found we have slightly over 3 days remaining. I don't see anything happening here.

[Cheery Dog]

let's vote kues now

VC brought my attention to this. "Lynx is the only vote on Kue, make it a wagon." Trollie's reasonless posts are tearing me apart, you guys positive this is normal Town behavior? I mean, having the extra Town vote is nice and he's not exactly harmful, but damn

I don't believe it's just town trollie behaves like this.
definitely feels like normal trollie, but I have no grasp on his actual alignment.

[Cheery Dog]

The fact is this, you having to wait for someone else to vote, to vote me, is scummy and opportunistic as fuck.

No one else has voted you?

*suspecting me, same fucking difference.

No it's not. When other than me questioning, I still had you as a town read at the time.

UNVOTE: cAPSLOCK

So I assume cAPS isn't as good a vote now? What changed since then?

VOTE: sikon327

Things of interest;

Way to fucking apologetic.
Plays the newb card a fair amount.
too much AtE
A lot of sitting the vote in the unvote area.
267 seems like some crap.

Please explain why all these are apparently made my scum with the scum motivation behind them.
Because while 267 probably won't help the game progress much, just calling it crap means crap.

This question still relevant? I generally like reading them, and they're some of my favorite things late game after players are dead and some scum is confirmed through role flips, huge advantage on that since they're harder to leave out scum partners. Disadvantage PR Townies can be just as likely to lie about their reads as scum are, don't want to point out the whole scum team before Night. I don't think refusing to post a full reads list is scummy on its own.

PR townies should never lie in that regard either - we can follow through thoughts from them just as much as non-powered townies should they be nightkilled.
But I also happen to think they're pointless and will actually help less in a NKA than just generally playing and showing reads (with reasons) as you go.
Post game doesn't matter, and you can easily tell from normal play anyway. (because if it's just there for bragging, you may as well just call out two names randomly and call them the scumteam as it's as much use to the game while it's going.)

[Cheery Dog]

Sikon, roll with me on Fferyllt. I'm pretty sure Kue is town. Lynx, you too.

For a comparison analysis, hanging Fferyllt over Kue is advantageous because:
Fferyllt is a more experienced player. Better/more experienced players hide their scum game well. An experienced player as scum, in a game of this size with waning involvement, can easily control the flow of info and conversation. Basically an experienced scum player is more dangerous to noob town than an experienced townie is helpful to a noob town. I'm thinking we have a mostly noob town here, and the mafia will be killing off any experienced town players in short order.

Experience is nothing with anything - If the experience are on the completely wrong trail - then they're just as likely to live as anyone else.

Unless scum have the noobs already on their tails, predicting the kills to be the most experienced is just an IC N1 syndom of scum not knowing what else to do. (or the threat that they

may

be good scumhunters). They (in this case, likely you) get rid off towniest - and experience doesn't have any say in that, except less mistakes may have been made.

Cheery, same thing... Doesn't look like enough support to hang me today. I appreciate you making a case and sticking to your guns, though.

I've made a case? (with apparent genuine insights?)

Why isn't a wagon on you able to take off then?

[Cheery Dog]

The one thing he did that impressed me, though, was townreading sikon for the post she made out of frustration.

Hasn't everyone bar Jason done that?

[Cheery Dog]

bauss,

If I were scum and if you are town, I'd leave both fferyllt and bauss in the game so it could fill up with our 1v1 and leave a pile of chaff in the air to hide behind.

Well it's not like you'd be able kill yourself.

What I'm wanting to see currently is caps's vote down on his biggest scum read as I'm really not liking his vote history. (which was a vote on a lurker and then the vote on jason after I joined the game) I have no real idea of where he is standing.

[Cheery Dog]

OK. We are running into a bit of a tight thing with time, yes?

A no lynch on day one is almost always bad is it not?

No one is really fighting for a particular wagon, and one of the only active posters is the one who is closest to being lynched.

This game culture and style is so different than the several games I have played elsewhere I have truly turned into a functional noob, sorry... But we need to get a move on yes?

VOTE: likeabauss

I feel sure this action leads to a quick day 2 lynch for m... But its the best I have. I don't believe him yet.

Damn you needing to sub out here without explaining why you've decided LAB was your apparent biggest read.

So anyway - have you read much Grim?

[Cheery Dog]

Holy crap that's a lot of calling the dead town obvtown (ygrim has now become the 3rd highest poster in this game)and paired with cAPS's inability to really get any hunting done, my suspicion is now quite rife on that slot. At least I know where your slot stands though.

Just for fun:

@Cheery Dog: what IS your read on fferyllt?Why did you not question her scumread on you? Why did you not question the mitigations of her "arguments" against you?

Still slightly scummy, but with the sheer level of inactivity that plauged the middle of yesterday, I can't say any reasons for them - I was probably more caught out my who I considered my highest town read after reading through the pages before my replace in not posting for ages due to a sickly mod.

As far as I've seen, her arugment against me is something weak do to with kingdavid's play - I didn't see what exactly caused it and I don't want to be defending predecessors, so unless it's actually from my own play, it means nothing.

[Cheery Dog]

What did you think of Cheery Dog's case on likeabauss?

I still don't know where anyone got an idea of me having make a case. I think it was lab himself who was the only one who did.

[Cheery Dog]

That shit is sheep worthy.

VOTE: fferyllt

Also that slot is town as fuck now.

cAPSLOCK i apologize if you are still reading this thread.

Which parts of it exactly make you want to sheep?

[Cheery Dog]

So let me get this straight, you were both on the likeabauss wagon but admit to there not being a case?

I had reasons for my vote, but not what I would call a case.

[Cheery Dog]

Pretty sure she earlier refered to me as a possible town read (when i got back into the game) Now that i suspect her after Grim's Posts (which are very convincing) and blatantly sheep him, she instantly votes me based on "no content you MUST BE SCUM"

So about you telling us which parts of Grim's posts are what caused you to want to sheep him so much.

Cheery isn't my partner

I thought you were calling yourself a mislynch before - now there's something about you not having me as a partner.

I am wanting to L-1 you with all this WIFOM about you being a mislynch and not actual defence though, except that I'm not having doing that when Kues hasn't posted yet today and not much else from Trollie (not really surprising) or Lynx.

[Cheery Dog]

I knew that would get your attention. Now, why are you reading me as scum? You never went into detail on day 1.

Right now, it';s because you've turned on the AtE with saying you're a mislynch and other non-actual defence.

I can't remember day 1 well enough to describe what my thoughts on people were then.

[Cheery Dog]

It's fact. not emotion. Who is my partner?

It's an appeal to trigger my emotions - regardless of what you're trying to do with it - it's still something that you're appealing with and it's aimed at emotion of worry.

I'm not doing partner hunts currently. I'm not convinced enough to have you on L-1 with other players absent - why should I therefore know who you partner is?

[Cheery Dog]

Even though the message of this exceprt is not completely clear to me, I got scumbives from this.

Implying my catch-up was little more than calling the dead guy town.
Implying I went for quantity, not quality.

Pairing my catch-up with my predecessor's inability to hunt suggest the idea that I can't get any hunting done.

Nice to know.

That's what I read at the start of your catching up - that's what it turned out to me, so yes.

Those are why I was considering oyu scum. Fferyllt's response to your catch up was even odder though. (and the start of the AtEs)

[Cheery Dog]

Nice to know.

And it's the little things that give it away, really.

Also nice to know, do you have a point somewhere?

[Cheery Dog]

It's fact. not emotion. Who is my partner?

It's an appeal to trigger my emotions - regardless of what you're trying to do with it - it's still something that you're appealing with and it's aimed at emotion of worry.

I'm not doing partner hunts currently. I'm not convinced enough to have you on L-1 with other players absent - why should I therefore know who you partner is?

You don't understand where I am coming from at all, then. The only players I am interested in worrying are scum. And I think you may be scum.

Then why are you putting crap AtEs?

[Cheery Dog]

I feel good about a lynch on either of them still, but you have being convinced, and being convinced, and Cheery Dog has gotten me more convinced than fferyllt has that he's scum. Look at the way he responded to everything ever since I got in the game.

VOTE: Cheery Dog

Which has changed from what I was doing day 1?

ANything more than look at shit?


Are you going to explain your reasons for sheeping this time Jason?

[Cheery Dog]

bauss,

If I were scum and if you are town, I'd leave both fferyllt and bauss in the game so it could fill up with our 1v1 and leave a pile of chaff in the air to hide behind.

Well it's not like you'd be able kill yourself.

What I'm wanting to see currently is caps's vote down on his biggest scum read as I'm really not liking his vote history. (which was a vote on a lurker and then the vote on jason after I joined the game) I have no real idea of where he is standing.

OK. We are running into a bit of a tight thing with time, yes?

A no lynch on day one is almost always bad is it not?

No one is really fighting for a particular wagon, and one of the only active posters is the one who is closest to being lynched.

This game culture and style is so different than the several games I have played elsewhere I have truly turned into a functional noob, sorry... But we need to get a move on yes?

VOTE: likeabauss

I feel sure this action leads to a quick day 2 lynch for m... But its the best I have. I don't believe him yet.

Damn you needing to sub out here without explaining why you've decided LAB was your apparent biggest read.

So anyway - have you read much Grim?

These two posts clearly show how Cheery Dog was setting up cAPSLOCK for the next lynch. He first practically told him to vote likeabauss, only to call him out on it later.

I wouldn't mind a hammer on him soon, to be honest. It's not as if he has been trying very hard lately. I think he's a bit pissed that cAPSLOCK replaced out and ruined the plan.

I asked him to place a vote on

his

biggest scumread. Not my biggest,

HIS!

That's should be a bloody big difference.
Me wanting him to have stance, where he didn't even comment on my post -
If I just wanted the hammer - I'd actually have been asking someone to hammer and using the deadline as as excuse. (which would also happen regardless of my alignment)

It does mean I don't know what he was thinking or not, and it does change stuff, but that's how replacements in games asre always bad.

Today's lynch has to be one of Cheery or me. I'm still on the fence about whether my flip today would do town more good than Cheery's, because your linkage theory is obscuring other players, one of whom is scum.

Why does the lynch have to be one of us?
My reads might not even be any good and you might not be scum, and if that's the case I don't want either of us lynched today. (or at all)

[Cheery Dog]

Those are the three posts cAPSLOCK had made before you asked him to vote his biggest scumread.
Are you telling me you had no idea who he was going to vote for given these posts?
Really?

I wasn't confident that he actually had any reads, so yes I wasn't sure who he would vote or if he would actually vote.

and considering when I posted asking for his vote on be put somewhere bauss was still at L-2, what actually was the problem here.

Still waiting for actual reasons from Jason today though.

[Cheery Dog]

Still waiting for actual scumhunting from Cherry Today.

Maybe you can answer my question so I can do that.
You know it might help, sewing as I asked it and all.

[Cheery Dog]

Your being fucking dense now aren't you?

Grim's case mixed with your failure to do anything, mixed with my capture of the "town" post i'm leaning on that being fake right now.

Whih parts of Grimm's case...

and considering when I posted asking for his vote on be put somewhere bauss was still at L-2, what actually was the problem here.

It just shows your gentle nudges that helped lead to his lynch. It's all part of... oh why the hell am I explaining this to you, you know very well what the problem is.

Because I want to know what is causing this obsurd confirmation bias.
I do respect it's not useful though.

[Cheery Dog]

If you read my posts, you know very well what caused my attention to be put on you. There's nothing "biassed" about it.

Can't we just lynch him? This game is dragging on and nothing new has been presented.

When I have no idea why this is actually scummy, or knowledge of this apparent "plan" I had, then yes your whole thing is bias.

[Cheery Dog]

VOTE: jasonwazz

[Cheery Dog]

I guess I better also give some reasons for doing that (besides wanting to rage at shit), as I'm not entirely sure Jason is scum or not, but he's just provoking me into doing that by not going into more details of which parts of Grimm's confirmation bias case he is actually sheeping.

From what I understand of Grim's actual case(s) is that he found something which is apparently textbook distancing (and who the fuck uses textbooks nowadays?)
and is then finding evidence to back it up re: what I'm currently talking to him about.

Yes this game is still got crap out with the Kues/TIP slot needing a lot more content posted and with people like Trollie fluffing a majority of the time, I'm not convinced of my reads at all and haven't been all game besides when Sikon became obvtown.

[Cheery Dog]

When did Sikon become obvtown to you?

After #267 (the rage post)

I was actually going to post directly afterwards, but I didn't have enough credit of my phone to actually post, and therefore it had to wait until I got home again.

[Cheery Dog]

Bold = not scumhunting, and not to mention not town motivated.

You're not townmotivated.

Now fricken stop provoking me into getting mad and actually answer my FUCKING QUESTION

[Cheery Dog]

Also while you at it, explain how how me rage voting you has any clear motivation whatsoever.

[Cheery Dog]

I closed my tab directly after posting it to calm down, so maybe not that much rage, just getting fed up. (can't have been that bad when I was able to explain it slightly 10 minutes later)

[Cheery Dog]

Have we lost the mod(s) again?

[Cheery Dog]

You just voted someone based on emotion rather than an actual reason, highly OMGUS. "I'm voting him because he keeps accusing me."

Actually it'
s mostly because he keeps avoiding my question, which paired with the fact he's then accusing me (yes it is part of the reason) of not scumhunting, when he's clearly not actually going to help me progress on that point. (ie answer my question so I might actually be able to tell where's he is coming from) So the vote came as I'm not sure of his alignment, and his is refusing to help me determine it - which does make it point more scum, but I never know with Jason.

[Cheery Dog]

You're officially a scum read now, thanks for your help Jason.

[Cheery Dog]

And if Cheery Dog truly cared about arguments, he would have responded to mine in a more satisfactory way.

The guy is scum people. Seriously.

"Satisfactory way" That's bloody clever isn't it. You know when you're tunneling that will never happen.

I'm satisfied with my responses to what arguments you've actually brought forth for me to argue against.

I was at L-1, wasn't I? Why would they move off me if they are scum?

You never got to L-1, I would have, but not willing when TIP's slot was MIA.

It would be more emotional (not ragey as it is now) and begging. He would plea for everyone's forgiveness and would actually try to keep the spotlight off of himself.

Marathon's are a completely different kettle of fish. While I think the only time I've been at L-1 as scum was my first scum game in (3p lylo), I think if you're trying to base stuff on what I'm like, meta from actual games would be better.

If neither you nor Jason are scum then I think one of the wagons should have gone through if he's town. And mine should have too, though maybe it collapsed too quickly.

The people that can actually push my lynch through have all been inactive, and I don't think any of them are that bad.
Though both Lynx and Trollie did mention agreeing with Grim's case apparently.

[Cheery Dog]

Putting the cart in front of the horse there. The tunneling will not stop simply because you don't give a good answer. To anything.
Calling this "clever" again implies you suspect scummy intentions from my part, but you NEVER fully called me out, NEVER formulated arguments against me. If you would be town truly thinking I'm tunneling scum trying to go for a mislynch, you would do more than this ^. You're more worried about my credibility than about my alignment.

Well when you've got me lined up as "Scum", I'm not going to believe you're credible.

I still do think you're possibly scum with the statements I made at the start of the day about you calling the day-1 lynch obv town as buying town-credit. I am happy leaving that for today though, with what may happen tonight and that Jason actually avoiding stating reasons other than sheeping ofr his voting. (Plus the horrible vote staying on capslock day 1)

That goes without saying. If I can be bothered I'll list the posts where I addressed you, but where you did not respond to the allegations by evading them.
But right now I can't be bothered, you're just scum making me go through a hassle and pulling up smokescreens, but if people would just re-read what has been happening and what I've been saying and they'll see for themselves. You're making false implications that I don't have much against you, and that the little I do have against you has been dealt with properly by you. This could not be further away from the truth.

They can't be false when you still don't actually have anything, there's a page of posts which is apparently your "Case" - but there's about as much actual stuff there as my replace in post.
Plus the whatever the heck you were inventing with my posts either side of the night in regards to capslock.

[Cheery Dog]

Cheery Dog, link me to your best scum game please.

In terms of how I was getting read my players, I think it would be http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23752
(but you may as well go through them all, there's only 4 of them)

[Cheery Dog]

i wanna vote grimm but that slot was SOOOO town before

Is it too weird that I now think Trollie and Jason are scum by both avoiding actually commenting on having reasons or anything?

It does work with how the game sitll hasn't moved except for people sheeping grim when he replaced in. :/

[Cheery Dog]

CD still ignoring me.

CD if you were town you would have done my request just to get me posting content, you are not town, therefore YOU ARE SCUM.

So now you're just attempting to steal my reasons.

whatever.

[Cheery Dog]

How do you know what I've read over?

There's still bloody nothing there that deserves a response.

you're still not answering the question either. (and the first one actually has nothing to with your vote on me)

[Cheery Dog]

Because calling intent to hammer Cheery at this point unless anyone objects.

I object to being hammered, Jason still hasn't answered my question from the start of day 1.

(and for those that are obviously blind to actually having stuff work - if you need my response to something, bloody ask it to me as a question)

Town before lynch: knows they're a mislynch but wants to get all of their reads out so you won't mislynch next Day. May point out suspects and reasons (such as bauss did) because that's helpful. Presents cases and convinces people to abandon the wagon because someone is scummier for a

real reason

.

Scum before lynch: knows the Town is right and has to divert the wagon or cause confusion if they can. Often doesn't have a case because they know the opposing player is Townie. Example, "Jason didn't answer my questions vote him not me." If not answering questions is as hard of a scumtell as you want us to believe, the setup is broken because there are more Scum than Town.

This is useless information unless you actually know how a player plays. Generalisations like this hurt a lot of towns.

I personally don't bother with cases - the fact I'm getting lynched means town isn't going to be listening to me anyway - and if they want they can easily see where my mindset is by reading my posts. All my reads are mostly explained in them - I don't care if you want compactness - either do it the hard way or leave it.

I've got to leave for the night anyways, I'm leaving it here. See if Cheery posts a claim before getting prodded, it's been two days now I think. We've got a week according to the last VC so there's time to wait for him to come back.

Activity overview (under the page numbers at the bottom of the page) tells you how long people have been inactive for - and therefore neither prod or claim will happen. (unless Jason actually gets off his arse and answers the question - I'm not claiming until at least that happens)

---

This wanting to hammer and not knowing how to do it and refraining from it or whatever makes me believe Lynx is highly likely town. Though I myself am making a generation here that 1st-time scum would just hammer with this opportunity. It doesn't clear Trollie since he makes no sense anyway.

[Cheery Dog]

Lets dsee then

420 - my reasons are already in thread about why I found that scummy. What you see is all there is
421 - There's nothing to response to here, how I phrase stuff is how it is phrased.
424 - nothing there to respond to (except you buddying to dead town which I have done already)
426 - There's nothing to response to here, how I phrase stuff is how it is phrased.
428 - and this is?
430 - Why do I care about a post regarding fferylit?
434 - I picked up obvtown on obvtown as did someone else, panic!
436 - Why do I care about a post regarding fferylit?
446 - come again?
456 - so fucking actually possible to do anything with omgosh
535 - There's still nothing in me becoming sarcastic to this "case"
541 - I don't L-1 people when inactives/replacements are happening. Anytime anywhere.
544 - Same shit of you not actually having any reasoning for anything.

Yeah that wasn't worth responding to.

[Cheery Dog]

Make some sort of actually useful argument and maybe - but right now, I'm still waiting on Jason to answer what he found good in your catch-up posts that was actually any use whatsoever that made you worth sheeping to fail.

[Cheery Dog]

It's up to them, but they just better make sure that information gets outed tomorrow if they decide to not wait.

I think actually it was just the trying to bribe people - It's quite possible something else would have happened if Kues was active around the time. I think I did actually stop caring about doing anything day 1 when there was so much inactivity, and it's carried over to day 2. My vote practically stayed because I wasn't happy with the lurker lynch of Kues who I had identified as town early on - and I'm really not sure of my ferry read. Bugger if I know why with that one either.

[Cheery Dog]

Lynx deserved that win, Jason didn't because he was obviously bloody scum with his refusal to explain his sheep votes. Learn preppie,.and don't let him get away with that type of shit again.

Ok I'm off to rage somewhere now.

Also I see Jason has managed to keep opposite alignments from me except if he replaces out true.
Dammit that means I'm going to end up playing like N on Nacho.

[Cheery Dog]

CD: I may be scum, but my best trait is to keep people off me.

because people are dumb about not getting you to answer a question.

A fricken question, not some obsurd sentences that don't have a clear way of wanting a response like Grim had done on me.

[Cheery Dog]

not some obsurd sentences that don't have a clear way of wanting a response like Grim had done on me.

[Cheery Dog]

Though I guess I did stuff it up with how I voted you, but there's no reason for people to not continue with the question.

Oh bugger I forgot Micro 197 where we were both town, dammit now I don't have a plan of action of always voting you.