Newbie 1389 Trouble in River City Game Over Scum win

[Grimgroove]

Hello everyone. Still need to read up on half of the game, should be able to post something substantial today.

[Grimgroove]

Made it to page 8 now. Lots of walls :p

Already gonig to bring up some things:

I really felt strong agreement when reading post 146, which is likeabauss' case on fferylt.
Fferyllt's replies in 147 and 148 are petty at best.

This short interactions screamed "SCUM USSING" to me:

fferyllt - is your vote on me simply pressure or what? I see in #133 you say that bauss is your "strongest scum read" but I don't see a vote on him. I find it odd that you'd place your first vote in the game on a self-admitted inactive player rather than on your strongest suspect. Also, you're voting me, as I understand it, due to inactivity. But as others have rightfully pointed out, you've done a lot of talking without saying much (up till recently when you posted your reads on a few players). I don't see the difference between my inactive inactivity and your active inactivity.

Anyway, I won't be voting you at the moment. Inactivity is a fact and not really something you can defend against, and I don't find it strong enough to be a reason for you to be lynched, especially this early on.

That's two people who misunderstood my post about bauss. To clarify, bauss was my strongest scum read up to the point where he started making a case on me. He went from indirect to direct stance of attack, though I think his case is mostly rehashing others' comments.

I never put a vote down purely for pressure. If I vote then at that point in the game, I am willing to lynch. You have been inactive, though you've been slightly more of a presence than Lynx. But, lynx' two posts had IMO good, thoughtful content and questions. I like questions. Prior to this, though you had 5 posts, there was only one with even a little bit of content.

(note: imkingdavid was replaced by Cheery Dog)

I find the whole thing cringeworthy. First, imkingdavid sets himself up for an awesome argument against fferyllt: fferyllt is voting him due to inactivity (which, from an experienced IC, is a truly awful substitute for actual scumhunting and using your vote as a pressure-tool), while she claims to have a stronger scumread on someone else. This in itself is bizarre.
Yet instead of pointing that out, he doesn't really comment on the bad vote, but on fferyllt's "active inactivity". Which is also a good argument. A very good one. Someone "playing active" who votes "someone obviously inactive" has a tad of hypocrisy around them, and I don't like it.

But imkingdavid's reasons for not voting fferyllt really take the cake. "I won't vote you because inactivity can't be defended against". Really? He just explained the difference between "active inactivity" and the inactive kind. Surely you can explain yourself for having dissappointing content in your posts?
He also says "Not strong enough for a reason to be lynched?"? Who's talking about a lynch already? We're talking about a vote. Pressure.
Somehow the idea of fferyllt being lynched is prevalent in his mind, and the only reason I can think of as to why that is, is because fferyllt is his scumbuddy he's slightly bussing but is at the same time worried it would get her lynched as an end-result.

Fferyllt's reaction to it also sounds completely unnatural to me, first of all for not noticing the things I just noticed, or not appearing to. But she did. And that's why she distances herself. She uses very strong talk through expressing her willingness to lynch him because he's been too little of a presence. Again it's hypocritical in a way, and "willing toh ave someone lynched" because they posted five times and only meaningful once doesn't seem like an argument that would come naturally to anyone.

Right now I'm thinking fferyllt and Cheery Dog are the scum.

Be back later with further catch-ups. I realize this isn't the way this is usually done, but this conversation really stood out for me tremendously. Too bad imkingdavid replaced out.

[Grimgroove]

SCUM USSING = SCUM BUSSING

Putting a typo in the all caps-phrase, way to make a first impression.

[Grimgroove]

Kueshina is on my tentative town list. My original read was that something was off, so I prodded and questioned, even tossed a little bait in there. I applied some heat and even was insulting. Here's what I took away:

Kue is a stranger in a strange land. Playing mafia here, learning the play here... All the responses seem in line with this and genuine in nature. This alone doesn't read town, it's null. But...

Kue is not afraid to think out loud. We saw some funny exchanges, discussion of mass claims, questions about roles, misunderstanding of RVS, and logic that didn't quite compute. A noob to the board that drew a scum role would be afraid of doing any of those things... Especially on day 1 without much coaching or background. (I'd expect a more lurky Day 1 in that scenario)

Kue recognizes that townies need to share ideas and foster discussion. I believe we've seen an answer to every question asked directly, answers to open ended questions, as well as attempts to explore what little data we have. Also, I see scum hunting without being prodded, right out of the gate. Instead of saying "Not much to work with", Kue spotted some things nobody else made mention of and pointed them out.

The "off" part I intend to explore as the game goes on, but I have a few ideas about it and most of them support a town read.

Agreed again.

How did this guy get lynched?

[Grimgroove]

I hate 183, Cheery Dog's catch-up post. I didn't read further but I'm guessing this is what got the likeabauss)wagon going.

Very devious.

90% of that catch-up post is talk about game-theory and responses to questions about gameplay-mechanics and the like.
He then votes likeabauss over the reason that likeabauss "makes deals": tit for tat, my reads for yours, etc.
What the hell is so scummy about that? I find it a very ingeneuos way of including everyone into the discussions with their views on things. He wasn't simply standing by in the background, waiting to copy reads from others. He rarely did, from what I've seen.

This guy was obvtown and got lynched, there's most definitely scum on that wagon, and it's obvious it's experienced scum because there's no way newbies could have set him up like that. Damn.

[Grimgroove]

Some of your reads/implied reads confuse me.

Most of them are implied, and I'm not even sure which way with those.

I guess I can actually put them into factual reads so you don't have to try and figure out what I'm implying.
Overall, Jason, Lynx, Kues are town reads. cAPS, trollie and shinox are nullish. You're probably my second suspect with buass obviously being my suspect.

This is the first post after the catch-up.

Note the difference in tone:

"Fferyllt is

probably

a second suspect" : no commitment to that read whatsoever.
"Bauss

obviously

being my suspect": it is very smart. The mere length of his catch-up post seems to imply he's got loads of arguments against the guy that make his scumminess

obvious

. In the meantime he puts his (at least I think) partner down as some form of scumread (again with little arguments, and with little commitment), this is a textbook bus really.

I realize I'ms tarting to tunnel on these two slots, but so far it looks pretty obvious to me.

When looking at others, I see TheTrollie how I know him from another (ongoing) game, JasonWazza being disinterested, Lynx making very good analyses so far, cAPSLOCK (my slot) getitng into what I consider a senseless town-vs-town tunnel rooted in inactivty of both slots.

To be honest I thought sikon was pretty scummy from what I have read uptil now, really milking out his "newbie-status" way too often, but the night flip proved me wrong.

His kill also points to scumb eing on the likeaboss wagon. Why? Because he had a very similar playstyle a slikeabauss. A playstyle that obviously irked scum, and rightly so.

[Grimgroove]

So much love for 211.

Really guys, you should be ashamed for lynching this gem.

[Grimgroove]

What do you think are the advantages and disadvantages of full, ranked reads lists?

This is not exactly a random question. It's relevant to player behaviors in this game.

This, like poker, is an incomplete information game. The advantages and disadvantages are intertwined... Even the same.

Lists give information. That information is useful to both town and scum. But in the end I believe it does town more good as town has much much much less info to start with. So to me, more information is always good.

I feel this way in general about mafia, but regarding reads lists I have seen some downsides, especially in games where players' relative skill levels aren't entirely clear. Specifically, I have seen that the scum teams will pore over town reads lists in choosing their night kills, and players getting huge praise for being uber town move up in kill priority, excluding whatever power-role hunting the scum team is able to do.

In games where some players' skill levels are known, then players' abilities factor into the kill and other scum-target decisions - read accuracy, ability to build bandwagons, scumhunting, etc.

A good description of how sikon's kill came to be before the fact.

[Grimgroove]

Also, take into consideration that at the time, we had a number of players who weren't posting much. I like to try and draw people into the game, so sometimes I throw out a curve ball and see who swings. You'll note I've tried to engage a few different people by non-conventional methods this game. (specifically Kueshina, cAPSLOCK, Fferyllt, and JasonWazza.) If you want me to clarify on any of those instances, I'm happy to.

The non-conventional methods are what I'm asking about, specifically all the times you've asked someone to give reasons for their read with bribery that you'll then follow up with your reasons for a read on someone else.
Why don't you just give your reasons at that stage,

because they shouldn't be effected by what someone's reasons on somebody different are

Urgh, what an uncalled for implication. Misrep to the power of misrep. Look at where the pressure on likeabauss is coming from: Cheery Dog and fferyllt. This reeks.

[Grimgroove]

I haven't been tunneled this aggressively in quite a while. bauss, your case is basically cobwebs from my perspective. There is literally nothing to refute when your argument is essentially that stuff I do is by definition scummy because I'm scum. Being effective is the best demonstration of alignment that I know how to do and that's what I'm focusing on.

Is this all you got from my posts against you? You're belittling my case against you as, "You're scum and you're doing scummy stuff." Really?

What is your definition of being effective? Ask questions about general concepts of game play? That's like an icebreaker game at a Mafiaholics Anonymous meeting. "Hi, I'm Fferyllt and I like town blocs. It's been 37 seconds since my last mafia post."

Like I said earlier, I know my alignment and I know what motivates my posts. It's a combination of my win condition, my personal goals in mafia, and my role as IC.

You finding scummyness in my posting behavior may be partially my fault, especially initially, but I am what I am and I believe that my motivations are visible in my post.

If you would program a robot to play mafiagames, this is the kind of stuff it would say.
A generic, generally applicable defense with no content. You can copy/paste this into any game and it would look relevant because of the little content it actually reperesents.

[Grimgroove]

Why do you have jason leaning town? I've thought that aside from his all-but-tunneling cAPSLOCK, he's contributed little in the way of scumhunitng/reads and prior to Thursday or Friday he'd been a lurksack.

His rage at being called out in less than 24 hours seemed slightly town motivated. Plus I don't think I've actually seen him get angry as scum in past history - that's not much to go on, and I think I'm going to have to actually watch him as last time we met I tunnelled him incessantly.

I'm still not liking his cAPS vote, but not bad enough that it would ruin an otherwise fine townread.

The fact is this, you having to wait for someone else to vote, to vote me, is scummy and opportunistic as fuck.

No one else has voted you?

There is a point of opportunism when the person he quoted before voting actually has a town read on you, but I can see how he didn't realise that at the time since I never mentioned that until afterwards.

Actually I probably should be leaving you at null because my mind is trying to mput the read on you because meta, when it probably doesn't actually mean what I think it means.

This comes off pretty damn hedgy Cheery Dog.

And no response. I think your experiential meta on me is pretty mixed. I left this comment alone while the vengeball game was in progress, but since it is ended, I'm coming back to it. In our first game, Donner Party, you were convinced enough of my scumminess after a day 1 where I wound up with about 2 town reads, 2 scum reads and a pile of null reads that you targeted me for your vig kill.

My alignment in that game is a matter of record now.

In the vengeball game you modded, I was much more aggressive, but given how quickly the first lynch happened (with very little input from me and my hydra partner unfortunately) I had to get aggressive or town would be in a no-win situation after the next lynch.

Both styles of play are well within the space where my town game lives.

What do you think of jason's continued low level of engagement in this game since he was out of that game?

It worries me. So does your reaction to it.

Note thow whenever they interact to and about each other, they include some "third person" to really focus on, by ways of pre-emptively explaining why they didn't stick to focussing on each other. Cheery Dog did it earlier by mentioning likeabauss as his suspect, Fferyllt is doing something smilar now. In the first instance she finds JasonWazza shady. It's only in the second instands she finds Cheery Dog somewhat off, because of his reaction to Jason' behavior.

It's amazing how this all fits so nicely. I can't be imagining this, right?

[Grimgroove]

227 is delicious. No wonder Sikon had to die.

[Grimgroove]

What did you mean by this?

Actually I probably should be leaving you at null

because my mind is trying to mput the read on you because meta

, when it probably doesn't actually mean what I think it means.

That was in regards to Jason.

and that the last game I played with him I tunnelled on him with some of the stuff he has done here. I still find it scummy, but from the previous game I disregarded it and I'm just overly confused.

I'd expect more from him than infrequent posts consisting of nothing but tunnelling a newbie player to the exclusion of everything else going on in the game.

Mock discussion closed with a statement on the third party.

[Grimgroove]

♥ 234.
Reply 239 to that merely addresses the semantics. Pffrt.

[Grimgroove]

Cheery Dog

Prior to his replacing in,

I had put my vote on his predecessor, iamkingdavid.

My iso analysis of iamkingdavid is here: 142. I did a partial reset on the slot with Cheery's arrival.

Yes, be sure to remind us of that. You're obviously not scum with him.

Cheery's catch-up post 183 is pretty long for such a short game thread. He commented it may be his longest catch up post ever, which given the thread length strikes an odd note. He was also pretty indirect about most of his reads. I pointed this out, and he clarified his reads in post 195.

A description of some physical traits of his opening post and stressing the criticism you had towards him during your interactions with him. Sof ar this isn't much of a read on Cheery Dog, it's just reminding us of your actions towards his slot.

The central part of Cheery Dog's catch-up post, namely his "case" on likeabauss and his vote, is not touched upon. When they talk it's never about the essence of things, it's always about stuff they can easily disagree on without having to bus each other too hard.

In 203 he says that he doesn't like jasonwazza's caps vote. his read of caps is null-ish.

Nice piece of information. Analysis?

216, 223 he engags with bauss, who he is voting.

Other than interaction with bauss and with me (which I initiated and which I keep going) his one post to another player was to answer capslock's question about vote counts.

His involvement in the thread is better than that of his predecessor, which is not saying much.

Moot points to close the read, and again a reminder of her interactions with him.

I'm still leaning scum on this slot.

Still didn't fully catych-up yet, but I don't think this leaning will ever amount to any serious pressure unless general consensus moves that way.

[Grimgroove]

i didnt mean u were distancing from anyone, it was the "what do i know im a newb" comment

best scum hunting comes from the first few pages

Yes, I had noticed that as well.
TheTrollie does read the game. He just keeps things frustratingly short and concise, but I think he's town in this game.
His main problem is that he's a lazy player. He doesn't type, and he forms his reads based on 1 or 2 arguments and (from what I've seen) sticks to them until some other argument on somebody else catches his eye. I don't think I've ever seen him change reads,h e just changes focus on other people sometimes.

[Grimgroove]

For all of the effort I'm putting into my posts, it doesn't seem that they're actually contributing effectively towards the hunt for scum at the moment. I am frustrated by my inability to have a meaningful impact on the game at the moment. This frustration is clouding my judgement, and causing me to act in a way that doesn't seem to be helpful to the interests of the town. It seems that other people here have a better idea of how to scumhunt than I do, so I am just going to step out of their way, let them do their thing, learn from their example, and hopefully come back strong once I better understand how this game is played, if not by the end of this game, then in future games that I am involved in.

I believe you could carry on attempting to hunt in your own style, I probably haven't commented much as I haven't seen where exactly to comment in arguments and suchlike I don't have strong reads on the people involved.

But I now do have a strong town read on you after that rage post. I guess I may have another look, but nonetheless just stopping hunting helps less that seemingly hunting badly.
(even if it's just on how people are attacking you and how that may help reads on them later in the game)

This post mitigates a lot of my concerns about you.

How?
In that read on him you provided you hardly voiced any concrete concerns (as I mentioned earlier), but please tell me how this relates to 249.

[Grimgroove]

267 and 268 are very unfortunate.
272 is fferyllt's way of being happy about this. The motherly tone, the understanding, AAAAH.

Really don't understand what got into sikon there, but fferyllt definitely made the most of that. Wow.

[Grimgroove]

[pos]273[/post] is eerily similar to what fferyllt had to say about it.

THESE TWO ARE SCUM!

Everything up til page 11 confirms it.

[Grimgroove]

Just for fun:

@Cheery Dog: what IS your read on fferyllt?Why did you not question her scumread on you? Why did you not question the mitigations of her "arguments" against you?

[Grimgroove]

I mean, when look at fferyllt's reads, just look at the difference in style and focus between her cases on other people, and the one on Cheery Dog.

In the former, she discusses what they do, what makes them scummy-townie, etc.

In the latter, she insists on specifying her own interactions with Cheery Dog.

This is so obvious.

[Grimgroove]

Innyminnyminymoh:

VOTE: Cheery Dog

He hasn't received enough scrutiny yet.

[Grimgroove]

Jason's way of getting back into the game on page 12 gives me townvibes.
Also Lynx strongly confirms the townread I already had on her in that page.

[Grimgroove]

jason, to me sikon comes off painfully newbtown.

How visciously unfair.
Sikon's posts and reasonings were anything but newbisch. They were very well thought-out, elegant, well-elaborated and, as far as I can see, accurate.

What on earth made him newbtown to you? And even painfully so?

You're just furthering what you did in 272. Further confirming his already damaged self-esteem.

Even if you're not scum this post was wrong. This is not a thing you should be saying as an IC.

I'm going to move my vote to you if only because of that. Cheery Dog will have to be next.

VOTE: fferyllt

[Grimgroove]

fferyllt was clearly intent on undermining an objectively good townplayer's arguments, making him lose his self-confidence and making him less of a threat. At the same time she was buddying to him by calling him town. How patronizing. How evil. how scummish.

Lynch this now. Immediately.

[Grimgroove]

Really need a break, reached page 13 now.
Really curious how this lynch on likeabauss came to be though, so I'llb e back later today.

[Grimgroove]

For a comparison analysis, hanging Fferyllt over Kue is advantageous because:
Fferyllt is a more experienced player. Better/more experienced players hide their scum game well. An experienced player as scum, in a game of this size with waning involvement, can easily control the flow of info and conversation. Basically an experienced scum player is more dangerous to noob town than an experienced townie is helpful to a noob town. I'm thinking we have a mostly noob town here, and the mafia will be killing off any experienced town players in short order.

*bzzt*

YOU NEVER EVER HANG BASED ON EXPERIENCE

UNVOTE: sikon327
VOTE: Likeabauss

If you hang someone based on "experience level" instead of based on "scumminess" then your basically gambling on RNG.

Experienced players are better to have alive, even when they are scum.

This is basically a "lynch the IC because they are better scum" argument, and that argument is based on odds, not on personal scumminess.

Very impulsive, but not scummy I think.
likeabauss' argument was not verystrong in this instance if you read it on its own. Jason made the mistake of doing that,b ut his reaction seems genuine. He voted on an impulse.

Cheery/IamKingDavid have been anything but vocal scumhunters, bauss. It's why they are currently in my list. Cheery can change that by getting into this game and doing shit.

Strongly disagree. Cheery replaced in and started slinging shit right away. He's got more genuine insights in 14 posts than half of the players in the game.

Yes, good insights, though maybe a little shallow.

The one thing he did that impressed me, though, was townreading sikon for the post she made out of frustration.

But no effort to move things along, refine his reads, etc.

Like I said,

he can change my impression by getting into the game

.

Again, some more textbook bussing. That bolded sentence leaves the door wide open to an adjusted read back to town whenever bussing becomes too risky.
"Getting into the game", really, that sounds like an insurmountable hurdle for poor scumread Cheery Dog.


Also note this came after the post where she claimed to have had her concerns "mitigated". I guess she decided to bus some more here without any additional arguments for doing so ever since this mitigation.

So wiffywoffy.

[Grimgroove]

For all of the effort I'm putting into my posts, it doesn't seem that they're actually contributing effectively towards the hunt for scum at the moment. I am frustrated by my inability to have a meaningful impact on the game at the moment. This frustration is clouding my judgement, and causing me to act in a way that doesn't seem to be helpful to the interests of the town. It seems that other people here have a better idea of how to scumhunt than I do, so I am just going to step out of their way, let them do their thing, learn from their example, and hopefully come back strong once I better understand how this game is played, if not by the end of this game, then in future games that I am involved in.

I believe you could carry on attempting to hunt in your own style, I probably haven't commented much as I haven't seen where exactly to comment in arguments and suchlike I don't have strong reads on the people involved.

But I now do have a strong town read on you after that rage post. I guess I may have another look, but nonetheless just stopping hunting helps less that seemingly hunting badly.
(even if it's just on how people are attacking you and how that may help reads on them later in the game)

This post mitigates a lot of my concerns about you.

How?
In that read on him you provided you hardly voiced any concrete concerns (as I mentioned earlier), but please tell me how this relates to 249.

Oh for cryin out loud your catch up posts.

Because his earlier read of sikon was inexplicable to me if he's town. It boggles my mind when experienced players misread newbs who are so clearly town.

I am feeling kinda similarly about jason at the moment.

My best guess of the scum team is 2 of cheery, jason and Lynx.

There was no mention of his read on sikon anywhere when giving comments about Cheery Dog in 249. Why would you not include something that afterwards sounds pretty crucial to you?

[Grimgroove]

Sikon, roll with me on Fferyllt. I'm pretty sure Kue is town. Lynx, you too.

For a comparison analysis, hanging Fferyllt over Kue is advantageous because:
Fferyllt is a more experienced player. Better/more experienced players hide their scum game well. An experienced player as scum, in a game of this size with waning involvement, can easily control the flow of info and conversation. Basically an experienced scum player is more dangerous to noob town than an experienced townie is helpful to a noob town. I'm thinking we have a mostly noob town here, and the mafia will be killing off any experienced town players in short order.

Experience is nothing with anything - If the experience are on the completely wrong trail - then they're just as likely to live as anyone else.

Unless scum have the noobs already on their tails, predicting the kills to be the most experienced is just an IC N1 syndom of scum not knowing what else to do. (or the threat that they

may

be good scumhunters). They (in this case, likely you) get rid off towniest - and experience doesn't have any say in that, except less mistakes may have been made.

Cheery, same thing... Doesn't look like enough support to hang me today. I appreciate you making a case and sticking to your guns, though.

I've made a case? (with apparent genuine insights?)

Why isn't a wagon on you able to take off then?

The drama here is that likeabauss seems to owe his lynch to himself a bit.
Cheery Dog DID NOT have a case. The only thing he ever said about likeabauss was that he didn't like the bartering-strategy likeabauss was trying out. That is it. His whole case. Cheery Dog is simply surfing his towncred here, all because he made a big catch-up post.
Fo' shame!

[Grimgroove]

Thanks for the deadline extension NS/Rach <3

VOTE: likeabauss

Crucial vote is crucial. Deadline was getting nearer. The dynamics of the likeabauss lynch are a bit as I expected them to be so far, with Cheery Dog and fferyllt being the main boosters behind it.

[Grimgroove]

Post 313 was the tipping point.

Yes, whenever you lack a case, the best thing to do is just to refer to a "tipping point".
That post 313 wasn't likeabauss' best post, I'll grant you that, but it was far from scummy and even if it was, it was far from nullifying all the good shit he's been saying and trying to do.
Terrible vote and terrible, lazy reasoning.

[Grimgroove]

Gah. Likeabauss, why. 313 sounds like you've run out of reasons to say ff is actually scum and are appealing to chance. The argument seems dubious anyway. Regardless of what qualms I have about ff, she's at least contributed some good information. If she turns out to be town, we'll have sacrificed an experienced player capable of valuable insight for the sake of a player who, regardless of alignment, seems to be incapable of forming a case without a blatant logical flaw in it. That doesn't seem like good tactics to me.

I also notice your somewhat out-of-place attempt to butter up Cheery Dog (the one person with a vote on you at that time) in 317 and 318 ("I appreciate you making a case and sticking to your guns, though.").

UNVOTE: Kueshina
VOTE: likeabauss

If it's any consolation, I think that you've successfully derailed the wagon on Kueshina.

Congratulations!

This is a townie voting him. However equally wrong he is, you can clearly see the difference with Cheery Dog's and fferyllt's votes. There is nothing "implied", no "overwhelming" cases that are being referred to but never in detail, just what he thinks about everything and a vote.

[Grimgroove]

dude i dont rly see him as scum. cant we lynch someone else?

♥

[Grimgroove]

337: ♥♥♥
TheTrollie is town.

[Grimgroove]

My internet access is spottier than I thought it would be. I am on the blue ridge parkway near Mt Pisgah.

That said I HAVE been paying attention. I have been leaning to voting for likeabauss for reasons I have previously mentioned as well as some recent developments. I think Jason's recent catch of likeabauss wanting to vote because a player is experienced is especially damning. I don't know if my vote would be a hammer so I will hold off for a few moments. Day one is over really soon, yes?

I haven't been paying close attention to this guy because he's my slot, but I don't remember him saying anything about likeabauss.
He was clearly a clueless player who did not invest enough time in this game. Luckily you have me now.

[Grimgroove]

less love for 350, but still coming from an obvtown.

[Grimgroove]

Townreading bauss? I don't think so

The relevant parts are bolded. spoilered because quotewallz

Spoiler: My posts about bauss' alignment

Fferyllt - let me clarify. I understand the point you are making about your play style, history, meta, etc. My question to you is why did you bring it up in the first place? I made mention of a different player doing a similar thing, as part of a line of questioning to that player, and you chimed in with a defense for YOUR actions. I never mentioned you doing it, neither did anyone else that I can see.

It smells fishy to me, mostly because good guys (town) operate under the confidence of their innocence. Bad guys (scum) are forced to mask their guilt and put on a show. This subtle difference changes the nuance of some things. One of the things I look for is people who are overly defensive (which you've exhibited in this maneuver) because scum feel the need to defend and keep the heat off. A town player knows their innocence and wont be as touchy or knee jerk on defense, especially against an accusation made against a completely different player.

It was in response to the player that I tentatively townread, and appeared to be an indirect dig in my direction. It also was the post immediately after Kus putting down a vote on me with the reasoning that I was buddying sikon, so it also looked like indirect support for that vote.

Your play in this game so far seems to be oblique and indirect in some ways. I am going to make some time for a meta dive to see if that's typical of your town game

.

I've had a look through his previous games -- there are two of them, one newbie, one mini normal, and in both of them, he's town. And in neither of those games does he display the hesitance to vote for possible scum that is present in this game. So why has he suddenly become cautious about voting? The way I see it, he either had some kind of epiphany in-between his previous game and this one, or he is merely playing differently now because he now has a different role -- that of the town's enemy.

I've had a chance to read his prior games this morning, and I've come to a similar conclusion about his play in those two games. My caveat is that the games are old - about 3 years old. In Mini1053 he mentioned that he played elsewhere, so it's not surprising that his games back then were aggressive. My play style 3 years ago is probably not a good indication of how I play today.

That said, as I mentioned earlier the indirect attack and indirect support for Kus's first vote pings. It pings harder than anything else in the game so far. I'm pretty deliberate with my vote when the game format allows, so I probably won't vote until after the weekend and there's more data to weigh up.

likeabauss, do you still play regularly on another site?

What do you mean forming a town bloc?

It's the upside of town reads - some town players finding each other and actively working together to develop reads and push bandwagons.

Also, who do you suspect as scum? I'd love to hear your insights/thoughts/questions into this game, instead of the analysis of the way it is being/has been played. Seems like you're a very meta focused player, is that true?

I'm still developing my reads.

I have you down as possible scum, but I'm worried that it could be a false positive due to your current play style/rustiness after a few years away from mafia.

I need more data from a few players.

I'm not sure about "very" meta focused, at least at MS. When I have experiential meta I use it. When I wind up with a leaning scum read based on in-thread play I like do a meta dive and look for reasons to rethink.

VOTE: fferyllt

That feels good.

I believe you to be scum. I have many reasons that I will share when the time is right. For now, I will wait patiently while others weigh in and share their opinions.

What say you all? Is fferyllt scum or am I crazy?

You are my strongest scum read atm. Your vote adds more doubt about the accuracy of that read.

:/

You are my strongest scum read atm. Your vote adds more doubt about the accuracy of that read. :/

I can assure you that this logic is faulty.

Please review the post #127 Lynx_Shine made and offer up your thoughts on the concerns presented about you.

Also, cAPSLOCK's post #114 rings true with me. Having reread my previous games here, you'll notice that I strung up an IC mafia goon on Day 1 on an almost identical maneuver.

I don't think you parsed my statement correctly. Your vote on me makes me think my scum read could be wrong. I've felt that your approach was indirect, and that you are basing your FoSes on what other players dig up. This is similar in that you're vauting off cAPS and Lynx' posts, but you're not being indirect now.

IME, I tend to either pick up votes in the early phases of day 1 or go more or less unnoticed until there's more data to work with. I don't usually key in on specific posts for scum reads. It's more about body of work.

fferyllt - is your vote on me simply pressure or what? I see in #133 you say that bauss is your "strongest scum read" but I don't see a vote on him. I find it odd that you'd place your first vote in the game on a self-admitted inactive player rather than on your strongest suspect. Also, you're voting me, as I understand it, due to inactivity. But as others have rightfully pointed out, you've done a lot of talking without saying much (up till recently when you posted your reads on a few players). I don't see the difference between my inactive inactivity and your active inactivity.

Anyway, I won't be voting you at the moment. Inactivity is a fact and not really something you can defend against, and I don't find it strong enough to be a reason for you to be lynched, especially this early on.

That's two people who misunderstood my post about bauss.

To clarify, bauss was my strongest scum read up to the point where he started making a case on me. He went from indirect to direct stance of attack, though I think his case is mostly rehashing others' comments.

I never put a vote down purely for pressure. If I vote then at that point in the game, I am willing to lynch. You have been inactive, though you've been slightly more of a presence than Lynx. But, lynx' two posts had IMO good, thoughtful content and questions. I like questions. Prior to this, though you had 5 posts, there was only one with even a little bit of content.

Fferyllt - let me clarify. I understand the point you are making about your play style, history, meta, etc. My question to you is why did you bring it up in the first place? I made mention of a different player doing a similar thing, as part of a line of questioning to that player, and you chimed in with a defense for YOUR actions. I never mentioned you doing it, neither did anyone else that I can see.

It smells fishy to me, mostly because good guys (town) operate under the confidence of their innocence. Bad guys (scum) are forced to mask their guilt and put on a show. This subtle difference changes the nuance of some things. One of the things I look for is people who are overly defensive (which you've exhibited in this maneuver) because scum feel the need to defend and keep the heat off. A town player knows their innocence and wont be as touchy or knee jerk on defense, especially against an accusation made against a completely different player.

It was in response to the player that I tentatively townread,

and appeared to be an indirect dig in my direction.

It also was the post immediately after Kus putting down a vote on me with the reasoning that I was buddying sikon,

so it also looked like indirect support for that vote

.

Your play in this game so far seems to be oblique and indirect in some ways.

I am going to make some time for a meta dive to see if that's typical of your town game.

I didn't use the word "pings", but I certainly did indicate concern about the indirect attack and the indirect vote support. In fact, it was enough concern to do a meta dive and read his earlier games.

And the dive

did not

turn up a propensity for indirect and oblique stuff.. He was direct and aggressive in his play back then. Given the passage of time (more than 2 years) I think he may have needed a little time to get back into the groove.

bauss was much more direct and aggressive right from the start in his earlier games. His later posts in this game, which I have said make me doubt the validity of my initial lean toward scum, are more in the vein of his first two MS games from a couple years ago.

I decided to go back and reread the first 5 or so pages of the game this morning to remind myself why I had the reads I started with and think about whether they are justified. This is from my handwritten notes, and I'm not going to bother with post links. For the most part I'm not talking about later developments here - just the first 5 or so pages unless there wasn't enough content early on.

Sikon - post 22 struck me as town mindset. post 29 she seemed gratified at getting a tentative town read from me. She had good trajectory on her first non-RVS vote, and again on bauss for FoSing with no vote early on.

capslock - post 25 seems empty of real content. post 27 seems hedgy about rvs of all things. 43, 44 make excuses. 56 puts down a vote for lynx not posting (makes it clear that's why - oh the futility of pressure votes that are basically labeled as such). 78 more excuses. I liked that he questioned my IC post comment that I'm as likely to be scum as any other player, thought it was interesting that people read that as emphasizing I'm as likely to be town as any other player. Agree with trollie about the football metaphor, but on reread his contribution is comparatively weak.

kueshina - right off the top, a "townslip", not realizing scum can communicate via QT prior to the game starting with 7 confirmations. The only way this would happen if scum, I think, would be if kues was coached to make a townslip. 31 is a lot of theory. I feel like kues' general theory stuff kept getting read as suggestions about this game. Overly defensive about kingdavid's rvs vote, and in general pretty prickly and defensive. I keep reading this as paranoid town, but could be confirmation bias. kues looks worse as the game day progresses and doesn't seem to be advancing their reads.

morthas/trollie - morthas looked town as fuck to me. To the extent he gave reads, I agreed with them based on what was in the thread up to that point. His vote on bauss made sense to me. If I had wanted to put a vote down in the thread that early, I would have put it on bauss. He liked kues for town. Trollie's posts, aside from not including a lot of support, also look good to me. When I ask for support what he says makes sense. I can see his reasons for voting (and unvoting) sikon and then kues.

bauss - initially posts questions, including leading questions and foses without votes. In 51, reacts to morthas. oblique, indirect series of posts about buddying. Sometime after 70 he starts tunneling me, and since then his posts have been worthless for discerning alignment. I guess I can't tell town tunneling from scum tunneling when I'm the object, not without priors and some idea of whether my play style is by default scummy looking to him.

king david/cheery - KD's posts were substance free with one exception when I first ISO'd him. Lots of excuses for why he wasn't posting substance. Cheery's better, but he's not taking strong stances about other players. Vote is currently on capslock.

Lynx - votes kues in 64. posts have good content.

jason - I've posted about him several times, mostly with concern about his tunneling capslock. But, my capslock read has suffered a bit since going back over the first 5 or so pages. I like his content since returning. feel kinda unsure about his sikon vote.

I have never townread you. I backed you down from top scum read due to ambivalence over my objectivity when being obsessively and irrationally tunneled.

Here fferyllt is so kind to show all of us that she hasn't got a real case against likeabauss. Just go over those postys of her and try to discern a case.

[Grimgroove]

In any case, 352 is infintely better than anything that had been thrown his way.

[Grimgroove]

bauss,

If I were scum and if you are town, I'd leave both fferyllt and bauss in the game so it could fill up with our 1v1 and leave a pile of chaff in the air to hide behind.

Well it's not like you'd be able kill yourself.

What I'm wanting to see currently is caps's vote down on his biggest scum read as I'm really not liking his vote history. (which was a vote on a lurker and then the vote on jason after I joined the game) I have no real idea of where he is standing.

A gentle nudge. So subtle.

[Grimgroove]

bauss, I agree with a lot of what you posted in 375, except:

sikon's posts come from a newbtown motivation to me, including the aggressive reactions to FoSes. There's a reason newbtown players get mistaken for scum a lot.

morthas' ade some strongly town-motivated looking posts and trollie's posts have mostly built on that. The one thing that worries me about him is how much WKing of me he's done.

I'm not liking your lynch so much right now.

also, jason couldn't be further from newbsauce town.

And I disagree about cheery not having an opportunity to get into a groove. I've replaced into games with far less time to deadline, gotten up to speed, and had a positive impact on the day and on the game.

I have to admit these two posts completely go against everything I've seen so far, which does make me waiver a bit.
But at this stage, fferyllt knew a Cheery Dog lynch was out of the question anyway, so no big risk there.
Claiming the likeabauss-lynch is not to your liking anymore without offering any reasonable alternative is not exactly trying to stop his lynch.
This is just really good scumplay, well thought-out positioning in a likeabauss-lynch thaty you knew was inevitable at that point.
Really well done.
But I'm on to you.

[Grimgroove]

Is it bad strategy to defend yourself when you are l-2? As far as I can tell likeabauss is doing a good time building a case against another player but is not spending much time talking about being l-2?

It is not a rhetorical question.

Skipped this before. There isn't really a case against me. It's more of a convenience hang. We are almost at deadline, and need to hang somebody. I'm not being hung because of flip flops, a slip, or anything scummy. I'm being hung because I made a case I believe in and stuck with it. There's no defense to be made. My reasoning and logic has been laid out and I've answered all questions honestly and openly. Conviction, like I stated earlier in the game.

True that likeabauss! True that!

I think this nearly concludes my catch-up, the derphammer of my slot is just that, DERP. Big one though.

So, that's it. I think it's clear who I'll be focusing on for the remainder of this daystage.

Sorry for the spam

, but catching up with 17 pages is hard to do in an elegant way.

[Grimgroove]

Ok, still not done apparently, you guys sure kept busy.

Trying to derail me from stirring things up. If somebody calls you out on something, a lot of people stop doing that something. Maybe I was questioning a scum buddy. Maybe he didn't want me shitting up the thread. Maybe it just looked shady to him. But to me, his play though short, felt lurky. And it read like he was implying I should stop "stirring things up", like its a bad thing.

The key phrase was "while keeping yourself out of it".

That is classic scum behavior IMO.

Another gentle nudge here, despite having claimed on the same page you did not like a likeabauss-lynch that much anymore. One-line statements like that stand out and with an approaching deadline it's all certain people need to place that hammer. cAPSLOCK was "certain people".

I mean, maybe I shouldn't have quoted all of it, but it is CLEAR who the drivers behind likeabauss' lynch were, and it is CLEAR that they had dubious intentions.
Couple that with strange inter-Cheery-feryllt-dynamics, and you've got yourself an obvscumteam.

[Grimgroove]

Here's the problem with your theory. I am not a super-skilled scum player. At best, my scum game could be described as not totally incompetent.

425

[Grimgroove]

What did you think of Cheery Dog's case on likeabauss?

[Grimgroove]

Why was this not a problem to you before?

[Grimgroove]

I've made a case? (with apparent genuine insights?)

Why isn't a wagon on you able to take off then?

This was too ambiguous for being used as an argument that you never claimed you had a case. The fact your vote was and remained on him speaks for itself.

[Grimgroove]

So let me get this straight, you were both on the likeabauss wagon but admit to there not being a case?

[Grimgroove]

Who is "both"?

You and Cheery Dog.

[Grimgroove]

You clearly did not read my entire catch-up. I've been through 17 pages of posts and now I can't expect to be read myself?

[Grimgroove]

Please comment on this, fferyllt, it's the post where I voted you so that should tell you it includes crucial information. A so-called tipping point perhaps. Why did you not bother to reply to it?

jason, to me sikon comes off painfully newbtown.

How visciously unfair.
Sikon's posts and reasonings were anything but newbisch. They were very well thought-out, elegant, well-elaborated and, as far as I can see, accurate.

What on earth made him newbtown to you? And even painfully so?

You're just furthering what you did in 272. Further confirming his already damaged self-esteem.

Even if you're not scum this post was wrong. This is not a thing you should be saying as an IC.

I'm going to move my vote to you if only because of that. Cheery Dog will have to be next.

VOTE: fferyllt

[Grimgroove]

Going to have to ask for the Obvious here but: Did you just find that after thetrollie asked for it, or had you noticed it earlier?

[Grimgroove]

Is every other player dead?

[Grimgroove]

To be honest, I find both your responses and the ones of Cheery Dog rather "meek" when it comes to my catch-up. I was expecting some kind of flaming, or some exposé on how I was wrong about everything, or how I was tunneling, starting off with one conversation and then going into the tunnel head-first.

I have seen none of that, just some selection of some of the things I said, and a halfhearted refutation of what was selected.

So I really think I'm on to something here, even moreso than before.

Why is this game so dead? Is there some kind of holiday going on?

[Grimgroove]

Cheery isn't my partner, but I am leaning pretty strongly scum.

Then why aren't you voting him?
Looking at your reasons for voting JasonWazza, it doesn't look like you have a strong scumlean on him. Simply "not doing much" at least doesn't look like a signficant reason to me.

[Grimgroove]

Kueshina and Lynx definitely have to get inhere before anything else happens.

Before they do, could you guys provide your reads on them? (I realize JasonWazza already did, so I'm addressing myself to Cheery Dog, fferyllt and Trollie)

I agree with Cheery Dog concerning ffreyllt's defence, and while he's more convincing in his "case" on her, his reaction to my catch-up was equally meek. It is not outlandishly difficult to make a good case against a scumpartners of whom you know she's scum.

I realize I could be seeing what I "want" to see, but it is entirely possible they're just distancing. They both claim to have had an eye on each other for a longer time, but before my arrival these feelings were never out in the open.

I remember likeabauss saying smething about play-adaptation: you get accused of something, and then you change your behavior so that the accusation doesn't hold anymore. But it did at some point.

I do agree with fferyllt that associative tells are "shit" when they make up the entire case. But they don't. You're each also scummy enough in your own right.

[Grimgroove]

Holy crap that's a lot of calling the dead town obvtown (ygrim has now become the 3rd highest poster in this game)and paired with cAPS's inability to really get any hunting done, my suspicion is now quite rife on that slot. At least I know where your slot stands though.

Even though the message of this exceprt is not completely clear to me, I got scumbives from this.

Implying my catch-up was little more than calling the dead guy town.
Implying I went for quantity, not quality.

Pairing my catch-up with my predecessor's inability to hunt suggest the idea that I can't get any hunting done.

"rife suspicions, know where that slot stands": the man called me scum but did nothing with it afterwards.

[Grimgroove]

Nice to know.

And it's the little things that give it away, really.

[Grimgroove]

Nice to know.

And it's the little things that give it away, really.

Also nice to know, do you have a point somewhere?

My point is rather obvious.

"Nice to know" is as much of an emotional defense as the one you're holding against fferyllt. There is no content, it just tries to give the impression that my remarks are inconsequential, without any factual arguments to back that up.

[Grimgroove]

I feel good about a lynch on either of them still, but you have being convinced, and being convinced, and Cheery Dog has gotten me more convinced than fferyllt has that he's scum. Look at the way he responded to everything ever since I got in the game.

VOTE: Cheery Dog

[Grimgroove]

I see it as a scumpost. Everything after the "except" sounds like some fabricated way of trying to make him look like this objectively-thinking person with a town-mindset.

If he truly reads fferyllt as scum, he would just L-1 her. Kueshina has got nothing to do with fferyllt. Neither do Lynx and Trollie.

And this isn't exactly the crowd for derphammering, cAPSLOCK replacing out made sure of that. He's trying to make the L-1 sound worse than it is, just to make him look better than he is.

[Grimgroove]

Day 1 you were in a position of almost conftown, based on your catch-up post. Nobody doubted you, not even likeabauss. You were comfortable and relaxed.
Now you are being a sour puss, your entire tone has changed. Snide little remarks like "nice to know", stuff like that.

You supposedly scumread both me and fferyllt, yet you don't vote on any of us.

You have not engaged with me in any substantial way, even though you claim I'm one of your scumreads. All you showed was defensiveness, but no desire at all to expose me as scum. This is not pro-town behavior.

[Grimgroove]

@mod: doesn't Kueshina need a prod?

Glad you'll be actively joining us Lynx!

[Grimgroove]

I don't assume you were lurking.

I'm pretty Cheery's scum. Based on the two flips, I thought either you or Jason would be his partner, because I don't thiink Kue would catch that breadcrumb.

Why do you think the kill was the result of scum finding that breadcrumb? Like you said, it's easy to find if you know what you're looking for, but other than that?
I think it's safer to say that sikon got killed because of the way he showed robustness in his argumentations.

[Grimgroove]

Why do you think the kill was the result of scum finding that breadcrumb? Like you said, it's easy to find if you know what you're looking for, but other than that?
I think it's safer to say that sikon got killed because of the way he showed robustness in his argumentations.

Yeah I'm doubting anybody saw the generic phrase and said "we must be in a Tracker setup NK him!" He was a mostly Town-read player with several accusations out, I'd be more worried about that than whether somebody rand ctrl+f "track" on every player for a crumb.

Exactly, and the way fferyllt tries to play this down doesn't sit right with me. She is too intent to show she was not scared of him, both before and after the nightphase.

[Grimgroove]

bauss,

If I were scum and if you are town, I'd leave both fferyllt and bauss in the game so it could fill up with our 1v1 and leave a pile of chaff in the air to hide behind.

Well it's not like you'd be able kill yourself.

What I'm wanting to see currently is caps's vote down on his biggest scum read as I'm really not liking his vote history. (which was a vote on a lurker and then the vote on jason after I joined the game) I have no real idea of where he is standing.

OK. We are running into a bit of a tight thing with time, yes?

A no lynch on day one is almost always bad is it not?

No one is really fighting for a particular wagon, and one of the only active posters is the one who is closest to being lynched.

This game culture and style is so different than the several games I have played elsewhere I have truly turned into a functional noob, sorry... But we need to get a move on yes?

VOTE: likeabauss

I feel sure this action leads to a quick day 2 lynch for m... But its the best I have. I don't believe him yet.

Damn you needing to sub out here without explaining why you've decided LAB was your apparent biggest read.

So anyway - have you read much Grim?

These two posts clearly show how Cheery Dog was setting up cAPSLOCK for the next lynch. He first practically told him to vote likeabauss, only to call him out on it later.

I wouldn't mind a hammer on him soon, to be honest. It's not as if he has been trying very hard lately. I think he's a bit pissed that cAPSLOCK replaced out and ruined the plan.

[Grimgroove]

You're trying to steer me into looking at who he suspected and who he didn't, notably at the end of the daystage. But that's all WIFOM and useless. Why do you insist on relaying the information to me that he townread you at the end of the day, just before he died?

All I know is that scum wanted him dead, and given I have both you and Cheery Dog down as my scumreads, my answer to your question is Obvious. But I don't suspect you just because he's dead. He seemed like a general townread, so the kill might have just been the result of that.

It does work though. Like I said before, the lynch on likeabauus has shown you weren't exactly sad by his passing away, even though he showed great potential to find scum. Instead, both you and Cheery Dog pushed his lynched, each in your own way. No matter how much distancing you get done during this daystage, this will link you forver.
I saw great similarity between likeabauss' play and sikon's, apart from sikon's uncertainty. But there was no guarantee this uncertainty would persist. In fact, it probably wouldn't have. Some support from any other player for his arguments would have put him back on the right trackagain. So you killing him makes perfect sense.

[Grimgroove]

My internet access is spottier than I thought it would be. I am on the blue ridge parkway near Mt Pisgah.

That said I HAVE been paying attention. I have been leaning to voting for likeabauss for reasons I have previously mentioned as well as some recent developments. I think Jason's recent catch of likeabauss wanting to vote because a player is experienced is especially damning. I don't know if my vote would be a hammer so I will hold off for a few moments. Day one is over really soon, yes?

OK. I see. I will still wait a bit and watch.

Lets hear from likeabauss.

Is it bad strategy to defend yourself when you are l-2? As far as I can tell likeabauss is doing a good time building a case against another player but is not spending much time talking about being l-2?

It is not a rhetorical question.

Those are the three posts cAPSLOCK had made before you asked him to vote his biggest scumread.
Are you telling me you had no idea who he was going to vote for given these posts?
Really?

[Grimgroove]

^directed at Cheery Dog

@Trollie, aside from doing, what are you thinking about both fferyllt and Cheery Dog?

[Grimgroove]

bauss and I had a very frank talk about our scumreads at the end of day 1. I took quite a bit of what he said on board. Lynx just accused me of sheeping him over it. The linkage is a mirage. Today's lynch has to be one of Cheery or me. I'm still on the fence about whether my flip today would do town more good than Cheery's, because your linkage theory is obscuring other players, one of whom is scum.

This makes so little sense I can't help but consider this an AtE. I can't see any reason why you would prefer a lynch on yourself over a lynch over someone you think is scum just because there is some possible confusion about how the two of you are aligned.

If the "mirage" is still there tomorrow, you can still deal with it then. Having yourself lynched as town now just for the sake of clarity is such a stretch I can hardly imagine this coming from town.

[Grimgroove]

and considering when I posted asking for his vote on be put somewhere bauss was still at L-2, what actually was the problem here.

It just shows your gentle nudges that helped lead to his lynch. It's all part of... oh why the hell am I explaining this to you, you know very well what the problem is.

[Grimgroove]

If you read my posts, you know very well what caused my attention to be put on you. There's nothing "biassed" about it.

Can't we just lynch him? This game is dragging on and nothing new has been presented.

[Grimgroove]

When did Sikon become obvtown to you?

[Grimgroove]

Read on!

[Grimgroove]

Grimgroove complains over walls and then posts a wall

I didn't complain, I like walls.

Could you give and explain your reads please?

[Grimgroove]

You see? That right there is Town frustration. Don't lynch him.

Why not scum frustration?

[Grimgroove]

I can't say I agree with this interpretation.

And this conclude's today's extraordinary events in this game, with a grand total of six exciting posts. More tomorrow?

Not from me, because I'll be V/LA for a day. Hope to be welcomed back with a flurry of new information when I get back.

[Grimgroove]

when YOU haven't even gone through it all properly.

This (was directed at Cheery Dog) is very true.

[Grimgroove]

Cheery Dog's case (you can't really call it that) against JasonWazza sucks donkeyballs by the way.

He's asking for why JasonWazza is sheeping me, asking for specific parts of my argumentation, in order to assess Jason's scumminess. How the hell does that consitute scumhunting? It's just a question that makes the person having to answer it go through a hassle. Nothing more than that.
What use is it to ask someone to make a selection of someone else's arguments aside from assuming he won't want to bother and then call him out on that? Scum can copy/paste a selection just as easily as town. The entire question was pointless to begin with, let alone the case following it.

And if Cheery Dog truly cared about arguments, he would have responded to mine in a more satisfactory way.

The guy is scum people. Seriously.

Not so sure on my fferyllt read anymore, the distancing is becoming more convincing by the minute, but she's still my main second scumread. The others are acting/have acted too townishly in comparison.

[Grimgroove]

How do you get enjoyment out of playing the game this way?

[Grimgroove]

Provide arguments that make sense if you really want to defend him.
All you did so far was call him town, and call his "frustration" seemingly townish.

By the way, weren't you going to give reads on people or something?

[Grimgroove]

You didn't read the game. Please replace out if you're not planning to do that.

[Grimgroove]

Yes, you missed some stuff.

[Grimgroove]

Yes, you missed some stuff.

Enlighten me, Sensei.

I was at L-1, wasn't I? Why would they move off me if they are scum?

Or do you think I am scum too and scum would vote as a bloc so early?

WIFOM. You see, questions like that do not sit well with me. I do not see the Town motivation behind them. Why would they unvote? I do not know, ask them. Do I think you are scum? Possibly. My reads are shaky at the moment.

I don't think it's WIFOM. They were on me. One of them posted pages worth of walls about how scummy I am. That's a hell of a trajectory to just walk away from if he's scum. I was at L-1. I voted Cheery.

They followed.

Now Cheery's at L-1.

How the hell was I the momentum-changer at L-1?

I didn't follow
You see, and that's where your distancing fails again. Trying to take credit for this Cheery Wagon, while you barely had any arguments developed against him before I called you out on it.

fferyllt-Cheery Dog scumteam? Oh yes.

[Grimgroove]

So the wagon just developed on its own? You started the wagon, ffery. You are to blame. You poked Cheery into L-1.
You poked Cheery with your stick, ffery.

And your first few lines are part of my suspicion exactly. Why would they follow a scumread on whom they had "pages worth of walls"?

BOTH Cheery Dog and fferyllt were addressed in my pages worth of walls. Hence my vote on him.
Trying to turn this into me sheeping a scumread of mine is a misrep (fferyllt) or a result of lack of involvement in this game (TheIrishPope).
You didn't read my catch-up posts TIP. Shame on you.

[Grimgroove]

It's got nothing to do with the order. Even though I did vote after you did, I never "followed" you in any way and you know it. Yet you failed to clarify this to TIP and instead promoted the idea that you pulled the wagon.

[Grimgroove]

It's got nothing to do with the order. Even though I did vote after you did, I never "followed" you in any way and you know it. Yet you failed to clarify this to TIP and instead promoted the idea that you pulled the wagon.

chronology and motivation correlate sometimes but it's not necessarily a causal thing.

What? Does that even mean anything?

I am still surprised that my wagon dissipated.

You were there when it happened. I stated reasons for changing my vote. And I said from the beginning both you and Cheery Dog were good scum-options. Fake surprise much?

It makes me wonder about Cheery's alignment. If neither you nor Jason are scum then I think one of the wagons should have gone through if he's town. And mine should have too, though maybe it collapsed too quickly.

You just called Jason scum, didn't you? Since you just townread me for my trajectory, it's the only logical conclusion.
Why all this between the lines stuff? Because you're about to join the wagon started by your supposed scumread Cheery Dog?

Majority wagon mechanics is not my forte. I learned mafia and played for years in a plurality lynch format. One of you guys ought to be able to come up with alternate hypotheses if I'm wrong.

Wrong about what/who? I have trouble discerning the central message from your post.

[Grimgroove]

fferyllt, if Cheery Dog is scum, you think his scumpartner is not on his wagon right now?

[Grimgroove]

And if Cheery Dog truly cared about arguments, he would have responded to mine in a more satisfactory way.

The guy is scum people. Seriously.

"Satisfactory way" That's bloody clever isn't it. You know when you're tunneling that will never happen.

Putting the cart in front of the horse there. The tunneling will not stop simply because you don't give a good answer. To anything.
Calling this "clever" again implies you suspect scummy intentions from my part, but you NEVER fully called me out, NEVER formulated arguments against me. If you would be town truly thinking I'm tunneling scum trying to go for a mislynch, you would do more than this ^. You're more worried about my credibility than about my alignment.

I'm satisfied with my responses to what arguments you've actually brought forth for me to argue against.

That goes without saying. If I can be bothered I'll list the posts where I addressed you, but where you did not respond to the allegations by evading them.
But right now I can't be bothered, you're just scum making me go through a hassle and pulling up smokescreens, but if people would just re-read what has been happening and what I've been saying and they'll see for themselves. You're making false implications that I don't have much against you, and that the little I do have against you has been dealt with properly by you. This could not be further away from the truth.

[Grimgroove]

Yes, he should claim first, but I'm not expecting anything convincing.

[Grimgroove]

Cheery at this point reads Scum to me for one major reason, apparent motivation. He's been at L-1 for a while now and nothing has happened.

Town before lynch: knows they're a mislynch but wants to get all of their reads out so you won't mislynch next Day. May point out suspects and reasons (such as bauss did) because that's helpful. Presents cases and convinces people to abandon the wagon because someone is scummier for a

real reason

.

Scum before lynch: knows the Town is right and has to divert the wagon or cause confusion if they can. Often doesn't have a case because they know the opposing player is Townie. Example, "Jason didn't answer my questions vote him not me." If not answering questions is as hard of a scumtell as you want us to believe, the setup is broken because there are more Scum than Town.

Wholeheartedly agree with this.

[Grimgroove]

And even though she has worked her way into people's hearts again, I'm still very wary of fferyllt. There's something I don't quite like about the way she's going after TheIrishPope. 676 sounds like the setting up of an easy lynch, with a fairly cheap excuse. In post 680 she seems to have realised this, and adds an afterthought on the same post that is too emotionally laden for being an afterthought.

At the risk of sounding repetitive: Still got fferyllt pinned down as my second scumread.

[Grimgroove]

That's a lot of words for saying you don't want to claim despite hammering intents.

I don't care if you want compactness - either do it the hard way or leave it.

Funny you should say that.
The same thing goes for my case against you.
If you want to do it the hard way, you can begin by replying to posts 420, 421, 424, 426, 428, 430, 434, 436, 446, 456, 535, 541, 544.

You only have fully replied to a handful of my posts, like posts 528 and post [pos]556[/post], but even there your replies were shamefully inadequate.

[Grimgroove]

That was quite the anti-climax.

I take it you're not claiming?

[Grimgroove]

Do you seriously think others will wait as well?

Go over all of your reasons to want likeabauss lynched. I have only spotted one, which is obviously not enough.

[Grimgroove]

Lynx_Shine thinks I'm scum because I asked her some questions. Interesting.

What do you make of Cheery Dog's refusal to claim?

[Grimgroove]

And you fferyllt?

[Grimgroove]

@Grimgroove, his refusal to claim means nothing. I understand him. He will be mislynched and he does not feel the need to claim, because it will not stop the lynch. A claim only delays the inevitable.

If it will not stop the lynch, not claiming means more of a delay than claiming does.

I'd say it's quite controversial not to claim at this stage. I see no town-motive for "not feeling the need to claim". If he's bitter because he's being suspected he should get over it now and get his act together.

What makes you so sure it will be a mislynch?

[Grimgroove]

And you fferyllt?

Two things bother me a little about it. The longer the day continues the more associative tells will potentially make it into the thread.

Not in the state this game is currently in.

[Grimgroove]

Good game scum!

[Grimgroove]

Both scum had me fooled 100%. Don't know why they killed me, I was on the completely wrong track.