Newbie 1389 Trouble in River City Game Over Scum win

[Kueshina]

Jason, I don't like your newbie-biting. If you expect all newbies to both do enough reading to know that mafiascum games start with an RVS and to notice that their confirmation is the one that starts the game, you're going to be disappointed a lot. However, this seems likely to be a nulltell rather than a scumtell.

david, I was in bed when my role pm arrived, and checking mafiascum is not the first thing I do when I get up. Besides, wouldn't it make sense for the last people to confirm to be the people with the least exciting roles, e.g. Vanilla Townie? (Not that I'm saying what role I am, except that I win with the town)
I'll VOTE: Vote:imkingdavid because this seems like bad logic.

[Kueshina]

I hadn't noticed that scum can talk during confirmation. UNVOTE: imkingdavid

About pronouns, I prefer singular they or spivak pronouns.

I'll VOTE: fferyllt because he seems like he might be buddying sikon327.

As for how to start day 1, depending on the setup: massclaim, some PRs claim to get doc/watcher protection but others say hidden, hypocopping, in dethy and similar everyone outs their reports, if there's a bulletproof the get told that they get shot, they claim if they got shot, if there's no bulletproof but there's a doc and no kill, sometimes they tell everyone who they saved, etc.
In this particular setup, I suspect that if any of those strategies were worthwhile, people would be doing them instead of the RVS. Our PRs are safer not claiming (with the possible exception of the BP, but in the newbie games I've read noone asks for BP claims d1), and it's day start; noone was saved from a kill and no one has any reports.

[Kueshina]

EBWOP: "he seems" should be "she seems", sorry.
Also, do 1SBPs get told when they get saved by their ability in this setup?

[Kueshina]

Hi everyone. I am likeabauss and I like to ask questions to foster meaningful discussion.

Kueshina - Why waste the energy defending against a pretty silly accusation... that of imkingdavid? (RVS, and clearly the vote and reasoning is frivolous.)

[...]

Since it was RVS, I didn't have any better leads. Even in the RVS, ISTM that you should try to make cases that are better than nothing, or at least not worse than nothing, and to me imkingdavid's case looked worse than random, voting me for something that was, if anything, a towntell (at least, that's how it seemed at the time; as sikon327 pointed out scum do have an incentive to stretch out the confirmation phase.).

[Kueshina]

Kueshina, thanks for the reply. Again, I'm confused by your response though. Let me clarify a bit...

imkingdavid, to paraphrase, said "vote you, because you were the last to confirm." I think we all realize that during the RVS, people just toss votes around frivolously without any true belief, and his vote + reasoning seems to be of that nature. You then responded defensively to imkingdavid's accusation against you, even though it wasn't serious. Now, when I myself have made no accusations, your response has a defensive tone again. I only asked why you responded defensively to his vote, not why you voted for him.

If by not serious you mean that that his case against me was not grave or strong, I agree with that, but if you mean that it was nothing but a joke, I was not convinced of that, and anyway ISTM that in the RVS you should err on the side of responding to things as if they mean something as otherwise you have nothing to talk about and the game stagnates. I don't see how explaining why I voted him doesn't explain why I responded, unless you were talking about me mentioning that I was in bed when the role PM was sent, in which case it was for much the same reason as my vote: I had nothing better to say, and wanted to err on the side of contributing to the discussion.

[Kueshina]

[...]

@Kue: What is your level of experience with mafia?

I've played a few games on epicmafia, but that's about it.

[Kueshina]

Looking over the votes, I notice that 2 wagons have gone to 2/5 votes(on cAPSLOCK and likeabauss), and sikon327 was on both of them. There's also likeabauss's case against him, and the way Morthas copied sikon327's vote on likeabauss makes me wonder if Morthas and sikon723 are scumpartners, although it also seems possible that likeabauss and sikon723 are scumpartners distancing themselves. I'll UNVOTE: fferyllt and VOTE: sikon723. I believe that leaves the votes like this:

Code: Select all

Lynx_Shine        [.....]0/5
likeabauss        [||...]2/5 : sikon327, Morthas
Kueshina          [|....]1/5 : imkingdavid
cAPSLOCK          [|....]1/5 : JasonWazza
sikon327          [|....]1/5 : Kueshina
Morthas (SE)      [.....]0/5
imkingdavid (SE)  [.....]0/5 
JasonWazza (SE)   [.....]0/5
fferyllt (IC)     [.....]0/5

My current reads are
Scummiest: sikon723
Also scummy: Morthas, likeabauss, fferyllt
Not very scummy: Lynx_Shine, cAPSLOCK, imkingdavid, JasonWazza

[Kueshina]

If the setup has lots of different town roles, massclaiming d1 can be a good strategy. As an extreme case, if every townie has a different role then each scum can only counterclaim 1 townie, and all uncced townies are clear (if the setup isn't randomized). In setups where private communication is allowed, if massclaiming would be an advantage except mafia would gain too much from knowing who the powerroles are, having a confirmed innocent to massclaim to can be worth losing the doc.

I would except scumbuddies to buddy, but I hear it's common of mafiascum for the to distance so as to seem more town.

I would except townies not to buddy because they don't know anyone's alignment (unless they're cop with inno or mason, but neither is possible in this setup on d1).

I like JasonWazza's idea of looking for people who don't scumhunt much. cAPSLOCK does seem to have not done any really scumhunting, as do fferyllt, imkingdavid, and Morthas, although in the cases of imkingdavid and Morthas this is due to a lack of activity in general, rather that scumhuntingless posts. likeabauss and sikon327 have probably done the most scumhunting, which makes me much less confident in my scumreads on them (not that I was very confident anyway).

I'll UNVOTE: sikon723... and now I'm not sure whether to vote cAPSLOCK or fferyllt. I suppose lack of scumhunting from a newbie could just be lack of experience scumhunting, whereas lack of scumhunting from an IC is more suspicious, so I'll VOTE: fferyllt

[Kueshina]

If the setup has lots of different town roles, massclaiming d1 can be a good strategy. As an extreme case, if every townie has a different role then each scum can only counterclaim 1 townie, and all uncced townies are clear (if the setup isn't randomized). In setups where private communication is allowed, if massclaiming would be an advantage except mafia would gain too much from knowing who the powerroles are, having a confirmed innocent to massclaim to can be worth losing the doc.

MASS CLAIMING IN A SEMI-OPEN SETUP WITH A MAX OF 2 TOWN PR'S IS NOT PRO-TOWN

Indeed. As I said, depending on the setup massclaim can be a good way to start the day, but in this particular setup there's nothing better than RVSing. Lynx_Shine seemed to think this was wrong because it was impossible for massclaiming d1 to ever be a good idea.

[Kueshina]

yo kuesh...

u scum bro?

No.

[...]
Kueshina - This may be a bit unconventional, but would you place yourself in the "older than 25" or "younger than 25" age group?
[...]

I believe the word you were looking for is "rude". Anyway, I prefer to avoid giving out private information on the internet to strangers in public fora.

[...]

Kueshina

:
[...] They've also all but claimed 1SBP, which seems like something scum wouldn't do, especially not completely unbidden.
[...]

That's not true at all. If you're referring to my question about how the 1SBP role works, that was just because I'd just mentioned an Epicmafia strategy that depends on the bulletproof role working the way it does there and it occurred to me to wonder if it worked the same way here.

[Kueshina]

[...] I was really just wondering why your logic sucks. What gives? Sikon used the word "careless", I'm going with failed logic.

That is not very specific or helpful. I don't have all that much experience with mafia, so excuse me if I'm not great at it yet. Hopefully I'll improve with practice. Was there some particular point of logic you wanted to correct me on?

[...]

Lynx_Shine seemed to think this was wrong because it was impossible for massclaiming d1 to ever be a good idea.

Regardless of how bad of an idea I think it is, was massclaim really necessary as the first thing on a list of things we could do in this setup?
[...]

No, which is why I put it on the list of things we could

n't

do in this setup.

I like likeabauss's case on fferyllt.

[...]
5) At this point, I reply a bit more inflammatory, and hint at a piece of the case against her:

And in my opinion, you're trying to contribute to the thread without adding anything that's helping the town identify and hang scum. This is not pro-town behavior, and I want to hang you for it.

This is one of my key reasons I think she is scum, but how does she respond?
6)She gives me exactly what I asked for. 3 scum suspects, her reasons for all 3, and a vote for one... not before offering an excuse for why she hadn't done it yet:

Substance and quantity is a little lacking in some quarters still, and it's primarily experienced players who seem to be holding back. I'm done waiting for content.

"I'm done waiting for content." Translation: HERE COMES THE BOOM.

Now, solely by virtue of me telling her what she's doing wrong, she corrects it and continues on. Experienced mafia players are very good at this, and can be difficult to nail down. [...]

Much the same thing happened earlier: I voted fferyllt for lack of scumhunting, and in her very next post she gives her first scumread of the game, while trying to make it look like she had given it earlier:

[...]
That said, as I mentioned earlier the indirect attack and indirect support for Kus's first vote pings. It pings harder than anything else in the game so far.[...]

Looking over her earlier posts, she did not mention earlier that this pinged. She did mention it earlier, but not that it pinged, only that it justified her defensiveness.

[Kueshina]

Apologies for my absence.

I don't think it was scummy of me to point out that most strategies for starting d1 don't work in this setup, leaving us with nothing better than RVS. I don't think it was scummy of me to include a list of d1 strategies that don't work here. I'm somewhat annoyed by the way everyone keeps misinterpreting that post.

I'm still happy with my vote on fferyllt. It seems like they were trying to help town as little as they could get away with before being called out. I'm also somewhat suspicious of TheTrollie, as they are also being unhelpful, although that might just be the way they play. Sikon327 seems probably town to me; It's hard to imagine newbscum posting 267, but easy to imagine newbtown posting it. I'm mostly neutral on likeabauss; they've been scummy in some ways but have also probably done the most scumhunting/ made the most useful contributions. Lynx_Shine, on the other hand, I'm neutral on because they don't seem to have done anything particularly scummy or particularly townish.