Newbie 1390 -- Game Over

[goodmorning]

/confirm, and I may as well do my IC post now:

[goodmorning]

Hello all, I am your lovely IC. I am expected to help you learn to play the game, particularly in the context of this forum. Towards the pursuit of that goal, I will answer all your theory questions truthfully.

That's right,

I will not lie to you

about theory.

Now, you may be thinking "no fair, she's got more experience, clearly she will pwn newbs". That's only somewhat true. Some newbies have played many a game of Mafia elsewhere. Besides this, experience counts against me as well: you all are able to look up my past games and see how I've played in them. I can't because most of you don't have any. So it's a fairly even split.

Some helpful Wiki pages:
Quick Guide to Mafia
Quick Guide to Mafiascum
A Beginner's Guide to Being Awesome At Mafia

And some terms:
Glossary
Commonly Used Abbreviations

[goodmorning]

I also want to get this out now so as not to interrupt gameplay:

HELPFUL TAG TIME

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[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29229]Newbie 1390[/url]

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Newbie 1390
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[spoiler]OH NO WHAT IS HAPPENING[/spoiler]

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OH NO WHAT IS HAPPENING

(highlight to read).

@Mod: What is your policy on spoilering long wall posts?

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[spoiler=A SPOILER??]IT IS[/spoiler]

which looks like

Spoiler: A SPOILER??

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Some mods are fine with spoilering of REALLY BIG WALLS O' TEXT. Some are not. Always be sure to check.

P-Edit:
@Cabd: Glad to hear it. Always nice to get along with people.

[goodmorning]

Be fun seeing IC goodmorning for once

Not too different from regular goodmorning, I should imagine.

VOTE: Goodmorning

Cause a cat is never good in the morning.

You can say that again, one of mine woke me up by stepping on my face.

But WHY ARE YOU SO OBSESSED WITH ME, HUH?

Vote: Jason

Oh, and the rest of you newbies. One thing that was in the links but I feel it's wise to re-iterate. Never EVER EVER self-hammer. No matter how much you want to "show us all" it's against your win condition. It has a few niche valuable uses as scum, but if you do it as town, you're essentially claiming scum.

This could be worded better, and I would argue that it has a few niche valuable uses as Town too, but this is essentially true.

But WHY ARE YOU MAKING THINGS EASY FOR ME, HUH?

Vote: Cabd

That being said, semi-serious vote.

UNVOTE: TheGarantula
VOTE: Derivan

But HOW IS THAT VOTE SEMI-SERIOUS ON A PLAYER WHO HASN'T EVEN SAID ANYTHING YET, HUH?

Vote: Feg

VOTE: Guyett

For not having an avatar.

That better

Yes.

But WHY ARE YOU NOT SCUMHUNTING OR SAYING LOTS OF WORDS WE CAN ANALYSE, HUH?

Vote: Guy

Actually I think on further reflection I should probably switch back to

Vote: Feg

I have a hunch.
(I should really spoiler this quotewall but there's not really any good way to break it down)

[goodmorning]

Hang on: HOLY SHIT CABD, YOU ACTUALLY READ THE LINKS?

I FEEL LIKE AN ACTUAL IC NOW

[goodmorning]

I'm Obsessed with Nacho as well, don't feel special <3

That makes me feel more special, Nacho is awesome.

But my vote is now semi-serious.

Kay.

I'll explain why it was a semi-serious vote later.

Kay.

Well, to be fair, I read them long before you posted them, but I did check them again to verify that the information I mentioned was there somewhere.

Still counts.

[goodmorning]

Activity tells are kinda... meh. I really hope that's not Feg's reason for "semi-serious"ing it.

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Wow I was not paying attention because those are two different people whose usernames start with D.

[goodmorning]

Though come to think of it the reason could be the same, he was on during confirmation stage and didn't come confirm.

So yeah, I hope that's not Feg's reason.

[goodmorning]

So what is it then? Looks like an activity tell to me.

[goodmorning]

Because as I stated in my post, you have voted for the two players (with an early bandwagon switch) who have posted the most and appear to be strong players.

I feel obligated to point out here that effort and ability are not in any way correlated with alignment.

In other discussion I agree it is a scummy that Cabd claimed that the MOD sent him info mistakenly.

I took that as a joke and if it becomes the key point in anyone's case on him I shall laugh.

@Feg: So you said it was semi-serious in an attempt to get a reaction, or you treat pressure votes as semi-serious? Which of those is the case?

I also have an early town read on Guyett.

Really? Interesting.

@Derivan:
I realize that Garantula has brought this up, but I'm going to reword it more sensibly. You think Cabd has committed a scumtell. Why would it be unreasonable for others to vote him for it (IYO)?

In other news, I have a light Townread on Garantula.

[goodmorning]

In other news, I have a light Townread on Garantula.

Why is it you are giving him a town read for mentioning the thing when i mentioned it like 6 posts before hand?

Why is it you are assuming that's what I'm townreading him for?

[goodmorning]

Also V/LA til Monday at the latest.

[goodmorning]

just posting to bump this game up a bit.
The spider has me down as possibly town, I'd tend to agree with him. I'm just a useless Irishman

How do you feel about everyone else? any tentative reads at all?

Never mind, you did a reads-type thing. BUT why do you have a townread on me sans explanation? All your other reads were fairly reasoned.

1. Wazza and Fegelein are scummy for voting the more experienced players first on shaky grounds.

How do you account for the levity factor of RVS?

I have explained the logic (Multiple RVS votes, even if it may be flawed) for my vote, still waiting on some semi-serious explanations for multiple votes other than RVS.

I voted for three different people four times in one post in RVS. Multivoting in RVS is hardly a scumtell.

Deri you are giving me scumfeels.

So you think his logic is alright, BUT you don't agree with it?

that doesn't make sense.

There's a certain amount of opinion that goes into interpretive logic. I find it a sensible enough proposition.

Hi guys...I am still here.

I'll just VOTE: Guyett to get the game going.

It would have been incredibly funny if you had derphammered someone. When you read up I look forward to your input, preferably with some original opinions.

[goodmorning]

@goodmorning
reason I'm getting a townread from you is because you haven't done anything particularly scummy yet.
This below is why I'm getting a slight townread off you.

I also have an early town read on Guyett.

Really? Interesting.

If I wasn't new to the site I would have been all over my posts asking questions about mafia tbh. Fegelein believes that I may be town from those posts but I certainly wouldnt... and it seems you didnt believe either which is why I have you down as town. Just to clarify though... I am town lol

As Jason points out, not having done anything particularly scummy would be a Null read, typically. That said, you don't appear very panicky, but then again you don't seem like a total newb. Therefore your lack of panic is not a massive towntell, but it is a slight one.

There's a certain amount of opinion that goes into interpretive logic. I find it a sensible enough proposition.

I don't think if you can't agree with the logic that you should think the logic is "alright"

What I'm saying is that in this game there are going to be differences of opinion, and when you start from a different place, you're going to end in a different place.
(For instance, if one of us started from "x person said y and that is scummy" and the other from "x person said y and that's not an alignment tell" then you may have impeccable reasoning from that point to your inevitable conclusion, as may I. But we would disagree with each other and still both have logic that is "alright".)

[goodmorning]

Also, gm, can you explain your vote on me?

Yeah, I did somewhere. If you want me to go dig for it I will shortly.

Personally, I believe that Guyett is playing the newb card, a scum trait. He asks about the mafia communication system and then does some analysis on people.
This is just a small suspicion though.

He's not playing like a newbie and I for one have noticed that I'm not treating him as such. You raise an interesting point here though.

Also in one of your posts you equated lurking with scum BUT that's only partly true.

How do you account for the levity factor of RVS? Multivoting in RVS is hardly a scumtell.

@goodmorning
I applied logic to the posts that were made during RVS in order to come up with my vote rather than throw out a random RVS vote myself. Your initial post was full of votes, which I did find somewhat suspicious. However, you also have asked a lot of questions and did not change your final vote from your first post during the RVS stage.

I haven't played on this site before and I understand I may be applying to much weight to RVS vote swapping. I appreciate those who have respectfully disagreed with my conclusions instead of calling my application of logic "stupid".

I see. I think it may have been surprising to me because I've seen too much steadfastness in voting called a scumtell before. Personally I am of the opinion that it tends more to personal playstyle, but YMMV.

I was going to put more stuff but my brain is melting, back in a bit.

[goodmorning]

@goodmorning: What do you think of Derivan after his recent posts? Also, what do you think of Guyett and bestwillcui's recent developments? Have any of your opinions changed?

Deri's posts still make me uncomfortable, but I haven't quite figured out whether it's just his posting style or if he's actually being scummy.
As for Guy, I keep reading his posts and hard-gut-reacting Town, but he's (logically speaking) still only a null-leaning or light townread.
best is difficult to figure out. He's being incredibly scummy but in all the derpnewbtown ways, I'd be inclined to give it a while and see.
Have any of my opinions changed? A few. I keep flipflopping on Cabd, and I'm still trying to figure out whether my reasons to continue voting Feg are valid. I just realised I haven't posted a real readslist yet, so I'll do a bare-bones one in this post.

@Cabd: Really? Activity tells and now "you"? This is weeeeeiiiiirrrrrddddddd

I'll show you a game where scum did just that.

And there are equally as many games where Town does the same.

@Feg: Alright, here's why I'm voting you so far:
From the beginning:
1. Your weird "semi-serious" thing.
2. Your meta.
3. Gut.
Later:
4. Your light townread on Guy.
5.

You wanted to get a wagon up to L-2 with your pressure vote yet said nothing to try to convince anyone else to vote with you so as to get it there

.
6. Still the first three.

@goodmorning
I am starting to see that there is a higher probability that it is personal playstyle (where meta is helpful) and have adjusted my weighting accordingly. Once your brain solidifies again, would like to hear some more of your thoughts on bestwillcui and Guyett.

Gave a couple up top and probably will be a few more soonish when I come back and flesh out my readslist.

TOWN
Garantula
Guy
Jason
NULL
Darq
best
Deri
NULL
Cabd
Feg

[goodmorning]

Nah, I use the nulls to delineate the bounds of the null section. Silly habit of mine.

best is null because his scummy actions could all easily come from newbtown instead. I want to evaluate him further before making that judgement.

[goodmorning]

@Feg: Alright, here's why I'm voting you so far:
From the beginning:
1. Your weird "semi-serious" thing.
2. Your meta.
3. Gut.
Later:
4. Your light townread on Guy.
5.

You wanted to get a wagon up to L-2 with your pressure vote yet said nothing to try to convince anyone else to vote with you so as to get it there

.
6. Still the first three.

[goodmorning]

Oh, figured out the typo in my list: SCUM should be the heading at the bottom of it.

[goodmorning]

1. At the time it was a major reason for me voting you, so I thought I'd better include it. I also find your later explanation unsatisfactory. More on this in 5.
2. Explain what? You aren't reading like you do in your Town games.

4.

Now

, but at the time you said that?
5. If you actually are Town doing a reaction test and it involves a certain set of conditions, you don't half-ass it. You try to prod those conditions into being met. If you're Scum, on the other hand, then it doesn't matter if the conditions are met since you don't actually need to test anyone.

[goodmorning]

@Cabd - A few things:
1. Snipping quotes is not considered impolite here. I do it frequently and without asking, and so does everyone else. Pretty please consider doing so yourself, because AAAAAAHHHHHHH SCROLLLINGGGGGGGG not to mention SAME POST TWICE IN A ROWWWWWW
2. Looking at stuff tends to be personal playstyle as well.
3. I actually like your argument here; though I personally disagree that the changing pronouns is a slip it is actually pretty well-reasoned and you do have an example of what you're talking about.
4. This may actually be your least graspy argument yet, which leads me to the unfortunate conclusion:
5. You are incorrect. This is mainly from my personal knowledge (namely, my role PM) BUT consider the following question if my good word isn't enough to convince you (which it shouldn't be):
If you are correct, and this shift in pronouns means he is scum and I am his partner, why would he use the wrong pronoun?

[goodmorning]

1. Well, I think it's satisfactory, but OK.
2. Again, expand.

4. Because he didn't know when scum could talk, it came across as a townslip.
5. A fair point, but I'm just lazy in general. Loads of games, loads of IRL, and burnout don't help.

2. Again, expand what? Take you in Open 494 for instance. You were just oozing obvTown there. Here? Not so much.
4. That is the oldest trick in the book. Remembrance did it replacing into Micro 137. And before you go underestimating newbies, that was literally his second game here.
5. There you go again with the burnout. You seem awfully interested in telling us this.

@Guy: All that is fine. I still disagree. However, Feg can wait.

Vote: Cabd

[goodmorning]

@ GM any chance of another list of readings? thoughts on best?

Yeah, I'll get on that in a bit.

[goodmorning]

Well if Cabd doesn't flip Scum now I'll be incredibly surprised.

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Oh look, unasked-for self meta.

Yet another light scumtell. I expected better.

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Hmmmmmmmmmmmm besides that your play is remarkably consistent.

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By which I mean you're not a player I'd want to go using meta arguments on, as that would be stupid.

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Regardless of any consistencies in your typical play, you are being objectively scummy in this game, and I don't like that.

[goodmorning]

Chainsaw is technically defending

someone else

by attacking

their

attacker, but whatever, Cabd.
By the time a tell has a name it usually ceases to be that relevant.

Basically I'm going to do my expanded readslist when I get back.

[goodmorning]

I slept in really really late. At any rate I want to wait for ryhx to post a bit so I don't have to go back and do that bit later.

For the moment the list is roughly the same as the first one I posted, I just really want to get my reasoning on it.

For the record I'm aware of how this post looks, but it can't be helped. I'd like to be able to get that slot well and truly sorted.

[goodmorning]

OK, can someone on the Best wagon explain to me why he's scum? I iso'd him and he's just a little bit newby and slapdash. Sure, he could flip scum, but I'm finding that unlikely. He's being set up as an easy target here.

While I'd give him about equal chances of flipping either way, the point about him being set up as an easy target is kind of my main reservation about the whole thing and the reason I'm not likely to join the wagon.

Again, Derivan is scummy for jumping on the wagon without adding anything. Can we have more pressure on this guy?

I'll trade you, Cabd today and Deri tomorrow.
Though I don't know how saying "let's add pressure" would make the votes on him actually look pressure-y.

[goodmorning]

AGH NO TRIPLE POST WHY

Cabd, if you don't want to be lynched you'll probably want to make a coherent and convincing case on someone else.

[goodmorning]

best's readslist is wishy-washy at best. At this point in the day you ought to have at least one read you'd be comfortable voting. That said, it looks newbTown to me. Does anyone disagree?

Also, don't reveal votes as pressure, or they lose their purpose.

BRB, LAUGHING MYSELF TO DEATH
didn't you

just

do that a page ago?
But this is overall a correct statement.

@GM
How do you explain suggesting a second day vote deal with the scummiest person on your readlist?

I wouldn't be voting Cabd if that hadn't changed. I still think Feg is scummy; I find for me the ends justify the means. Besides all that you're playing pretty scummy as well, and lynching you isn't out of the question. And besides THAT we get 2 free mislynches assuming that all NKs go through. We've still got them, and I think voting through Cabd, you, and Feg would mean, if not outright success for the Town, we'd be in a very good position to win.

It's interesting that you're the only person who picked up on that though.

If ryhx hasn't posted anything of substance within the next 24ish hours I'll go ahead and do my elaborative readslist then.

[goodmorning]

@Gar: From the readslist in particular I would personally have expected more null-leaning-scum reads. Instead he's got about 2 Towns, a leaning Town, a pro-Town, 2 Nulls (one for lack of activity), and 2 leaning Scums. For all intents and purposes that looks proportionally like a readslist a wishywashy newbTown would have. NewbScum usually would wishywashy their way to "well everyone looks kinda scummy, I don't really know" and top that off with a vote on one of the top wagons.

[goodmorning]

Other question: Why do we leave guys at L-1? Isn't it too easy for scum to quick hammer him? Especially with 5 days left on the clock, there's plenty of time for voting still. But it seems a common thing to do here.

Garantula's basically right about this, will respond to your wall when I get time. Very good questions, I feel a Townread coming on.

[goodmorning]

goodmorning

: Maybe its the nature of an IC, has a feel of more commentor then participant.

It's not really IC-me, just me in general. Defense is kind of a specialty of mine, and at times I tend to neglect my offense. It's a bad habit.

I don't have a good read on her, but please answer this: up to 185 you've mostly been on Feg's case, but then you suddenly throw out a vote for cabd with no explanation and cabd hadn't posted anything since your previous post. Why and what happened?

Let me try it this way: it's not about anything Cabd did in the interim, it's about Feg.
Or in other words, it's not that Cabd went down the ladder, it's that Feg went a bit up.

You continuing implying cabd's scummy in your subsequent posts but you never give any reason for it.

Don't I?

Spoiler: I actually do.

Now with BONUS CASE EXPANSION

Oh, and the rest of you newbies. One thing that was in the links but I feel it's wise to re-iterate. Never EVER EVER self-hammer. No matter how much you want to "show us all" it's against your win condition. It has a few niche valuable uses as scum, but if you do it as town, you're essentially claiming scum.

This could be worded better, and I would argue that it has a few niche valuable uses as Town too, but this is essentially true.

But WHY ARE YOU MAKING THINGS EASY FOR ME, HUH?

Translation: "you seem to be setting yourself up in that spot where you look helpful but actually aren't scumhunting at all."

Activity tells are kinda... meh.

Translation: "activity tells are lazy at best and scummy more often than not."

By my 155 Cabd is a solid close second scumread.

@Cabd: Really? Activity tells and now "you"? This is weeeeeiiiiirrrrrddddddd

If you are correct, and this shift in pronouns means he is scum and I am his partner, why would he use the wrong pronoun?

Note that he fails to answer this question or indeed most questions starting at roughly this point.

Okay, you're totally wavering caught scum now, guylett.

Scum wants day to be over as soon as possible. Scum likes the night. I'm town. I frigging hate the night. It's useless for my win condition. Night is the scum phase, and entering it this early is dumb and scum motivated. Hence, you're claiming scum.

Here he oversimplifies the "when should Town lynch" arguments, further using it as an excuse to call himself Town AND trying to use these scumtells rather than real scumhunting.

Oh look, unasked-for self meta.

Yet another light scumtell. I expected better.

[/quote][/quote]
Self-meta,

especially

in a newbie game, is a minor scumtell in my books.
Especially in this case, as Cabd seems to be well aware of his own meta and remarkably consistent in regards to playstyle.

In post 213, the amount of nitpickiness...

If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask them.

Expanded readslist now in progress.

Fixed quote tags, and unborked the ENTIRE PAGE. ~~NS

[goodmorning]

What... What even... MY TAGS

I swear it previewed TOTALLY NORMAL

[goodmorning]

SWEET CTHULHU IT BROKE THE BOX

[goodmorning]

Really? Most of the points were ones I'd made or at least implied already.

[goodmorning]

Yeah, all he did was reiterate his own quotes to show that he'd been involved with Cabd for a while. He didn't actually make new points :p

I think there may have been one new one.

Ok so you have done a lot of work on cabd... much of which I agree with. Any chance on a similar amount of work on others? theeeeeeeenks

It's possible. Or you could.

[goodmorning]

Basically he answered capably enough to clear up most of the points of contention I had with him, and a shift in gut had a bit to do with that. He's still in my scumpool though (a fancy way of saying "scummiest ranked (# of mafia in the game +1)" or, for this setup "the bottom 3")

I really need to go to sleep. The readslist is half done. I will likely be busy most of tomorrow, but it should get done anyway.

[goodmorning]

Some schools of thought claim that explicitly stating reads helps Scum decide who to NK/mislynch.
The problem with that is twofold:
1. Town is then left with even less to go on, since not taking a position means you don't have to make sense really and since not taking a position greatly decreases content input;
2. Scum can pretty much tell who's more dangerous and who'd be mislynch fodder regardless.

This is why I like to elaborate lots.

Hopefully this post is coherent, I tried to proofread it but it's giving me a headache and blahhhhhhhhhhhh 3am posting (DON'T DO IT)
Does it even answer any questions? I DON'T KNOW

[goodmorning]

Wait, what happened to the server thing?

Oh, and I asked, "Are we allowed to breadcrumb in this game?" or something along those lines.

Mysterious error and yes we are.

Uh..... Well, GM, You mind talking to me ffery-conversational style?

I don't know what you mean by that.
(I do know who you're referring to though.)

Why would you want to breadcrumb? Breadcrumbing can only benefit scum.

...What?

How is that a town slip?

I'm guessing Cabd means specifically that it is a PR slip. Because PRs breadcrumb their roles.
I personally would disagree with that assessment because I think he'd have brought it up sooner if he were.

My expanded readslist got lost; I'll try to do it tomorrow.

[goodmorning]

@Garantula: From someone who has been in that position: there are some paranoid people who play here. You gain a little more believability if you have a strong crumb to back up your claim. Scum can and do crumb fakeclaims, and they definitely communicate through crumbs (typically a Rolecop telling their partners what they discovered).

From someone who has been doubted even WITH a crumb: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
(this residual animosity is in no way directed at you)

@Cabd:
I see. I should be on sometime tomorrow evening (EST) if you like. There's tonight as well, but I may fall asleep soon, I'm not sure.
That's why Scum should crumb more subtle crumbs. But you make a good point there about the semi-open nature of the setup. But then again if he doesn't want to be lynched then just implying he has a PR might get people off his back whether he does or not.

[goodmorning]

It's better than not having one is basically the point.
One does want to be a bit careful when lynching un-cc'd PR claims regardless though.

[goodmorning]

^Technically that's a form of crumbing.

[goodmorning]

@Best: there is no reason to crumb at this point in the game (and especially after asking that). Plain and simply.

FTFY.

@Everyone not voting best: Why do you think best is newb town over newb scum with the actions he is taking.

Well I did give a couple reasons earlier - that his actions could easily come from either side, that his readslist essentially looks like it comes from Town rather than Scum.

Vanilla townies can breadcrumb too. I don't think this is definitive.

Vanilla Townies are expendable, and them crumbing is relatively pointless.

[goodmorning]

Basically he answered capably enough to clear up most of the points of contention I had with him, and a shift in gut had a bit to do with that. He's still in my scumpool though (a fancy way of saying "scummiest ranked (# of mafia in the game +1)" or, for this setup "the bottom 3")

@GM: Feg cleared up most of the points of contention. Which ones did he not clear up enough for you?

Number 5 on that list of mine from a few pages back.

I'm not sure if Cabd should be considered stalling seeing as he is the one who asked the mod about extending the day

I'll just leave this here.

[goodmorning]

GM, wanna chat for about an hour or so?

I was eating I'm here now though

Good for you doing new ISOs, it's a good step regardless of your alignment at this point.

[goodmorning]

That's roughly midnight here but I'm sure I'll probably still be up.

[goodmorning]

I keep rereading the last few posts but none of them make sense.

[goodmorning]

There was nothing rage about my Iso, more merely showing that it is possible to do one in a few minutes, not over a week after promising to do one.

It's equally possible to put it off because ISOs suck.

Guy townslipped earlier on

Where was this again?

And oh, Deri. I think you and my vote may be having a little chat soon.

[goodmorning]

It's not L-1, it's a derpquote.

[goodmorning]

Huh. I don't know that I like how sudden that was.

Vote: Deri

This is not a reprieve for Cabd, just a temporary move of vote to be a bit surer that he does indeed say what he's going to say.

[goodmorning]

It's not L-1, it's a derpquote.

My bad. Is there some kind of vote scraper bot and will my derp quote screw it up?

It wasn't actually your non-vote that made it L-1, and NS fixed it already. No, there isn't a "vote scraper bot," as you put it.

[goodmorning]

What made you suspect Derivan? Do you agree with Fegelein's assertions?

Starting in 98 where I call him out for ridiculous assertions about RVS.
Now it has something to do with the way he seems to be hanging out outside game continuity with his posts, if that makes sense, and a little bit of lacking follow-up.

[goodmorning]

Like he's not interacting with the game? More like an observer just commenting on it, if that makes sense?

[goodmorning]

Cabd: I knew there was probably gonna be a big wagon on him, and I didn't want to start the wagon.

What?? Why wouldn't you want to start a wagon? Especially since you were sitting at L-1 just a few days before lynch and if you were town, lynching another guy that is not you would be a pretty damn good plan even more so if you think he's scum. Unless, you're scum and you don't want to bus your scum buddy.
Also, there were 2 votes on Cabd already and you wouldn't have been starting anything. This is disingenuous as all fuck and confusing me.

^This, basically. I was going to try to say something along these lines last night but I was incoherent by that point so I thought I'd better get to it in the morning.

@Guyett: People seriously do have shit to do sometimes. I for one hate being got after for procrastinating or postponing due to MeatWorld issues.

[goodmorning]

@Garantula: Where is your compromise vote more likely to go at present?

[goodmorning]

I suspect we shall have to wait and see on Deri.

I'm personally not a fan of the speed at which Cabd's wagon grew, though it hasn't put me off lynching him entirely. No matter who gets lynched today or what they flip, I'll definitely want to take a look at Jason in particular tomorrow.

@ryhx: Same question, where would your hypothetical compromise vote go?

P-Edit:

Ok, how about this. If Cabd doesn't finish his ISO's before the deadline, then we lynch him or request another extension (probably not gonna get one though). If he does and it's good, we lynch

someone else

Deri.

FTFY.

[goodmorning]

I already have expressed my reservations on best: I think he is erratic newbTown. PLUS he kinda-sorta PR slipped a while back. Are we going to ignore that?

The sole reservation I would have on Deri is that he seems to be reading the game more closely than anyone else, but that could come from either side.

What I really want is still a Cabd lynch, but it seems unlikely at this point.

[goodmorning]

Hey guys I was casing Derivan when this jumped out at me:

@everyone: Best calling other people newbs doesn't lend to the 'just a newb' theory, even though his actions/responses I agree appear newbish. It almost feels to me that he is being coached to appear more newb than he his. Anyone disagree?

To quote Cabd: Town. Fucking. Slip. amirite? Except thanks to Guyett everyone should know scum can only talk at night. And Derivan has thus far struck me as pretty conscientious and has clearly been reading the thread carefully, so I know he knows.

To me it looks like a scumslip, but that's just me. Townies don't just bring up coaching like that though. This is Deri's first game here, is it a term he's likely to have picked up somewhere other than a Scum QT? I don't know.

If best flips scum, we look at jason/feg. If best is town, we look at deri/guy/feg.

I think.

Cabd is correct on this imo.

PEDIT SORRY

FFERYLLT

CABD

[goodmorning]

Well I think I think you're town now Cabd, though it might just be from you sheepingish me

[goodmorning]

I still have my suspicions on Feg obv, and mentioned recently that I'd look hard at Jason tomorrow

[goodmorning]

THAT'S THE ISH

[goodmorning]

500 is the ish, i should say

[goodmorning]

Also, in case we run out of time, make sure everybody who knows what it is looks for the amished tell on our replacements. I don't thnk either did but double check tomrorow.

I'm disinclined to agree with it, and replacements? what replacements?

[goodmorning]

oh, those replacements

[goodmorning]

If best flips PR I'm going to cry.
GM, you're an IC. How good are associative tells?

Pretty good, if you know what you're looking for and you have a scumflip in front of you.

[goodmorning]

OH I FUCKING TOLD YOU GUYS THAT BEST PR-SLIPPED BUT DID YOU LISTEN?? OHHHH NOOOOOO

OF COURSE NOT

I was writing a post but it was lost when NS locked the thread before I got to post it.

@gm why no outburst after I drunk hammered best? got a lot of reaction from Cabd, rhyx and gar but none from you...
you'e been very distant in this game, have you even been doing much scum hunting?

There was no reason. By the time I got online everyone had already said all there really was to say about it, you'd been read the riot act, and they'd straightened you out. Me going back onto the subject would only have been meaningless noise at a time when moving quickly was a necessity.
Are you questioning me for some reason or just to see yourself post?

I want to see Klick speak his mind, then I'll have a pretty clear idea on the game I think.

[goodmorning]

I don't think Deri is confirmed town

He is as good as unless there's a counter-claim.

IF YOU HAVE A PR AND ARE NOT DERI, PLEASE CLAIM NOW.

@goodmorning: what was the gist of the message you were going to post?
Also, please point out the post where you fucking told us best was a PR.

I don't really remember much of it, seeing as it was like 2am here and three or four days ago. The general gist was mostly responses to Cabd, I believe.
Jason pointed it out in his 563. Normally a PR slip isn't something I'd point out, but seeing as he BLATANTLY ASKED ABOUT CRUMBING...

[goodmorning]

Jason disagreed that the logic was there. The logic was there. Doesn't automatically make you Town. I'd also like you to demonstrate where I said that was why I was voting you.

And my vote move became un-temporary when I changed my mind on Cabd. I apologise if that didn't become clear to you.

Of course I recognized best would probably flip town, HE FUCKING PR SLIPPED IN THE MOST BLATANT WAY POSSIBLE

If you don't get CCd I won't be voting you again.

I want Klick to talk, then I shall tell you how I feel about the Feg slot once and for all.

[goodmorning]

Oh the move was very clear. Clearly scummy when read in conjunction with your shady out of the blue vote deal with your scummiest read.

I'd like to point out that Feg was in fact my second scummiest read at the time, just so we can get the facts right. I have a history of

not caring who votes alongside me as long as I can get my scummiest read lynched ASAP

.

As for the readslist: Sorry people keep replacing in. My bad, next time I'll do one with all the "OH THIS SLOT IS DOING FUCK-ALL" spots empty. It will be approximately three names long. One of those names would be mine, one yours, and one Gar's.
(I'll give you a hint: these are Town people who either have been posting or have been confirmed by happy circumstance

guess which is you

)

[goodmorning]

Side note that rankles rather a lot: If you're going to treat readslists as the be-all, end-all of Mafia games, I'd like to put this out there: you're gonna have a bad time.

[goodmorning]

There are some language ambiguities in the above posts I think but probably the issues of spelling and grammar can be forgiven due to the fact that it's 4:30 in the fucking morning and I'm being prodded around by someone who clearly has forgotten he read the game and I can't even do a little revenge case on him for fun because he's practically assured confTown at this point unless Klick counterclaims him and I almost wish that would happen but I've a sinking feeling it would be a lie.

[goodmorning]

Lots of stuff on my evolving look into best and the question of his slip.

The point of me pointing out that it didn't have to be a PR slip was indeed an attempt to play it down so he wouldn't become an NK before he had a chance to say anything useful.
The point of me saying "kinda-sorta" was to make the statement look more bitchy as to inspire people not to be idiots. It was not intended to be a statement of uncertainty. best was clearly not guileful enough to be faking.

I do count the "kinda-sorta" statement as fucking telling everyone so because that was its intent.

I'm just really frustrated that that stupid drunk hammer set it up for a scum win.

Of all the things you've said this game, this one is the absolute scummiest.

[goodmorning]

It would have taken you considerably less time to post a simple readlist (oh and you promised one before, during, and after the replacement of Darq) then the rest of your posts in-between promises.

I didn't promise a simple readslist. I promised an in-depth one.

You still have yet to deliver anything but excuses

Please go and actually read my posts, as you will find more content there than in your own.

a logical conclusion is that you have accepted the fact that you are going to be lynched and that you do not want to give the town information to use against your scum partner.

This is an incredibly stupid conclusion. I have interacted with everyone extensively. If I were Scum you'd have plenty of information to go partner-hunting with.
Besides which I prefer to WIFOM it out with the best of them (see my dying readslist in Newbie 1305).

@Guyett: Would it be possible for you to stop sheeping Deri for two seconds? Just because he's probconfTown doesn't mean that A. he's right or B. you should sheep him (or anyone else).

V/LA again, but I should be back by Saturday.

[goodmorning]

Well those quote tags got messed up.

[goodmorning]

@Gm didn't you sheep on Cabd at the end of day 1?

The other way around.

also how am I sheeping? see my first post at the start of day 2...

You've been sheeping others since long before D2. I fail to see what that post has to do with anything.

[goodmorning]

I would love to, but until Klick actually says shit there's nothing much new to discuss.

[goodmorning]

Because when you say "VTs can crumb too" it looks like a bad excuse which Scum would be damned well likely to ignore.

There wasn't a point in mentioning it in twilight, he was already dead so no point saying "don't lynch him" again, and he hadn't flipped yet so I couldn't say "I told you so".

[goodmorning]

Was it that bad? It was actually somewhat genuine, I had seen VT breadcrumb on a few occasions and it made sense then. Although now thinking about it again, it doesn't really make sense as any scum could breadcrumb VT easily

Wellllllll yeah they could, but it's not common for anyone in this site's meta to crumb VT tbh.
It's honestly the kind of thing that any players who've been around here a while would have laughed off as an argument as Scum.

ANYWAYS, BACK ON TOPIC


OH WAIT, KLICK STILL IS DICKING ABOUT

[goodmorning]

Kliiiiicckkkkkkkk I am impatienttttttttt sorrrryyyyyyy

[goodmorning]

Klickkkkkk youuuu liarrrrrr

[goodmorning]

Well this is exciting. Too bad the days are gone when replacements in the newbie queue were snatched up instantly by the months-long queue of SEs.

[goodmorning]

I must say I somewhat prefer the Klick wagon to the Guyett one, and greatly prefer it to the mysterious wagon on myself.

In fact,

Vote: Klick

L-1.

[goodmorning]

My vote isn't really for Klick. It's for Feg.

[goodmorning]

Then case on Feg?

Not tonight, but yes.

Bus time eh?

Deri, please get the fuck off your high fucking "ooh, I'm an un-cc'd PR" horse and try reading the actual game. I've had a scumread on that slot since Day 1. Not my fault nobody wanted to lynch it til now.

PEDIT: I WILL REPEAT THAT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH KLICK FLAKING

AT ALL



FUCKING READ, YOU ARE CONFTOWN

CONFTOWN NOT READING COSTS TOWN THE GAME

[goodmorning]

Then case on Feg?

Not tonight, but yes.

Stall. Check.

You go babysit four small children when you were expecting two for six hours when you were expecting four and then getting home at 1:30 in the morning and then see if you are coherent enough to make/go back and look for your earlier cases.

Deri, please get the fuck off your high fucking "ooh, I'm an un-cc'd PR" horse and try reading the actual game. I've had a scumread on that slot since Day 1. Not my fault nobody wanted to lynch it til now.

Yet you attempted a vote deal with him day 1.

For me, and I have stated this before (575), the ends justify the means. I have no problem making deals with my second scumread as long as it gets the first scumread lynched.

PEDIT: I WILL REPEAT THAT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH KLICK FLAKING
AT ALL
FUCKING READ, YOU ARE CONFTOWN
CONFTOWN NOT READING COSTS TOWN THE GAME

The sole reservation I would have on Deri is that he seems to be reading the game more closely than anyone else, but that could come from either side.

So which is it?

That was yesterday. This is today. You seem to be getting lazy just because you're confTown. Don't.

@GM
How about instead of CAPS RAGING you actually make a case and support it with evidence and explain why you are voting for players who are CURRENTLY BEING REPLACED (see what I did there ) before hearing from them.

Why would a replacement be necessary when I'm already rather certain that's where I want my vote? I took a break from voting to make up my mind. I voted that slot because my mind was made up. A replacement isn't likely to change that.

We let you live to LYLO and your the next lynch.

I hadn't thought about this. Hmmmmmmmmm

@Guyett: If you actually are Town, why are you voting yourself? It's probably the most anti-Town thing anyone can do simply because it gives us less wagon info.

Willing to DLH but not til closer to DL.

[goodmorning]

TIP. TIP, come here. TIP. Content, TIP. CONTENT. POST IT TIP

[goodmorning]

I'm not inclined to pairhunt before a flip, thank you. It's incredibly counterintuitive.

TIP is Scum though. After that, we'll see.

[goodmorning]

TOWN: rhyx and Garantula
SCUM: TIP
WE'LL SEE: everyone else

[goodmorning]

I'm pretty sure she just didn't bother including him since he's confirmed town.

No, I didn't bother including him since I've sort of blocked him out of my memory of this game. Normally I wouldn't bother, but since he's confTown it doesn't really matter what he says because he's not going to scumslip.

[goodmorning]

Again, not cleared, a doc has no reason to claim.

A Doc has every reason to claim. It's far more likely if Deri is lying about his PR that he's Scum rather than Town.

[goodmorning]

^It's the same 1-for-1 trade we do when a Cop gets a guilty.

[goodmorning]

Doc can still pull a protect.

And a protect can mean a lot more then a 1-for-1

We're still at 2 Scum, anything to get rid of one would be worth it in my books.
Also to protect, one would need to guess correctly who's up for death.

And that's not easy.

[goodmorning]

Secondly if you get your lynch on me done what Will you do when i flip town? We'll be in lylo and you and gar Will likely be targeted.

Why would Gar be targeted over TIP? And what do you mean by "targeted" anyway? Do explain.

[goodmorning]

Mafia then kill the other person that I mainly suspected on day 1... if I was mafia I'd have killed rhyx or gar then as obv townies

I have a little theory about this, and it's probably REALLY EGOMANIACAL, but who was pushing hard for a Cabd lynch? Me. But then I got a strong townread on him during that twilight, and mafia saw I wouldn't push his lynch and they didn't want to do it (esp with me calling him town) so they just killed him.


@TIP I AM WAITING FOR YOUR GODDAMNED CASE

@rhyx: If you were forced to vote right now, who would you pick?

[goodmorning]

THAT MEANS LITTLE TO ME

[goodmorning]

WIFOM like this was already mentioned earlier in this thread, and goodmorning's reasoning does make some sense.

tbf my reasoning is egomaniacal WIFOM at best, but yeah

Also, @GM: Why are you now posting in caps so much. You didn't really do that so much day 1.

I post in CAPS LOCK PARTY TIME STYLE FOR LEVITY OR EMPHASIS OR BOTH
I FEEL SO LIGHTHEARTED RIGHT NOW
LET'S JUST SAY KURIBO HAS MADE MY DAY(S)

[goodmorning]

then why not post it TIP YOU ARE MAKING ME SAD

[goodmorning]

Why would it be irrelevanr

TIP WHO DO YOU THINK IS SCUM RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT

[goodmorning]

This game just got 10000x more ridiculous

[goodmorning]

Also:
In an early post of your you claimed VT. In that post you state that you hadn't yet read the thread and didn't know if your slot had role claimed yet. Why did you risk claiming something before you had even read the thread to confirm? And why would your predecessor have a need to role claim if they were VT?

Honestly IMO that's the only townish thing that slot has ever done, if he was telling the truth, because it takes away his gambit option.

I saw my predecessor was in a tough spot, so I claimed in case he had not. In any case, it mattered little.

But if Feg had claimed anything other than VT it certainly would have mattered since one of you would have lied in that case. I really don't like your "It doesn't matter now" argument here.

hello to the people, skimming today and reading tomorrow
Apparently I'm in a bad position, so if Klick didn't claim, I'm claiming: VT

If you were VT it wouldn't matter if Klick had role claimed or not since a VT role claim does not help the town. My question is: if Klick had claimed something other than VT why would you expose yourself to that risk before reading the thread?

You can include the answer to that in a post that exceeds three lines including your read lists and thoughts on each player. Take your time.

WTF AT THIS WHOLE FUCKING POST
IT'S LIKE HE FORGOT HE CLAIMED BP OR SOMETHING

You voted me without a case so... Double standards much?
Derivan

You do realize he's an un-cc'd PR, right?

[goodmorning]

He claimed prior to the Tracker flip.

[goodmorning]

Not likely, best claimed PR but not what type so unless you'd like to point out where you think Deri would have seen that possibility or make the Doc claim I'm going to continue assuming that Deri is indeed a PR, much as I'd like him not to be.

[goodmorning]

Guyett: Scum. This guy started throwing shit at me the second I raised suspicion on his slot.
ryhx: Town. Newbscum would have hammered someone and tried to escape it next day. He is playing logically.
Derivan: Null. HIS CLAIM MEANS NOTHING. Which begs the question: why would a BP claim D1?
TheGarantula: Null. Had a decent case on him when he had to Town it up for himself.
JasonWazza: I don't want to be too quick to call him Town, but he is Null-leaning Town right now.
TheIrishPope: Me!
goodmorning: Wait, who's goodmorning?

Just playing devil's advocate here, but:
Guy: AA9 does that too, are you suggesting that OMGUS is always a scumtell?
ryhx: Are you saying that newbscum couldn't possibly be more savvy than that? Besides, he's not

that

new.
Deri: He would claim because he was at risk of hammer. I mean, all the reasons he could be fakeclaiming are fine and dandy, I just think we ought to wait til LyLo or a cc at least.
Gar: What I'd like to know is how you even found him scummy in the first place.
Jason: Why don't you want to be "too quick to call him town" and what is "too quick"?
TIP: YOU
goodmorning: ME

But unless someone counter claims, Deri is believable. If someone counter-claims, well at this late stage I'll probably still believe Deri over a counter claimer. It would be some lucky odds for Deri to have guessed right.

If the claim was Doc rather than BP and from a particular player I think I'd believe it over Deri's. Not sharing which as that would be more helpful to Scum that anything.

And even if there is a doctor in this game they could have counter claimed deri's claim and claimed bullet proof themselves FFS they would then likely be safe from the night kill as scum wouldnt want to wast the kill

Town lying in claims usually turns out quite badly, plus it would look fake if PR-X didn't claim immediately after Deri.

@Guy: Maybe you missed my post that says there are times when it's OK to self-hammer, like as Scum denying the Town more info or as VT at L-1 with deadline right there and no intent out on your head.
The latter is not the situation here.

[goodmorning]

No intent to hammer. Ryhx has stated it on you in a roundabout way.

[goodmorning]

@TIP: I like this discussion that's happening. So I don't want to hammer him at present.

As VT why would you want to knowingly cause a mislynch? Is it really better than no lynch? I don't think I completely understand.

It is really better than a no-lynch.
1. From a numerical standpoint, it keeps the player #s lightly town-sided. I'm not really into this point but Jason can probably explain it to you; it's to do with the # of mislynches town gets.
2. From your own standpoint it's not that much of a sacrifice, you have no PR and it's OK for you to die.
3. It allows the rest of the Town to analyze the shit out of everyone's reactions to and vote on you knowing for certain that you are town and not a liar.

In that situation it is indeed worth it.


And now I'm going canoeing.

PEDIT Well someone somewhere is going to have an interesting day then...

[goodmorning]

Interesting how GM quickly jumped from:

1. Buddying (stating I am in all likelyhood CONFTOWN even though "she would really like me not to be")
2. Setting me up for a lynch tomorrow (see above).

1. You are an un-cc'd pr. That makes you likely confTown. I would really like it if you weren't that PR, because you being Scum would explain why your posts are so scummy.
2. If you think I'm setting you up for a lynch tomorrow you may want to glance over TIP's posts.
3. The only way I'm setting you up for a lynch tomorrow is if we lynch Town today and if you then get cc'd. Are you saying you have knowledge that Guyett is Town?

@Mod: I don't think they were

serious

...

[goodmorning]

If Deri isn't Scum I don't know if I can ever join a game with him in again. He is deliberately being obtuse.

[goodmorning]

^YES I KNEW IT

Vote: Deri

[goodmorning]

^That's L-1 in case anyone cares

[goodmorning]

@goodmorning as the IC: Does me being alive confirm JasonWazza's claim, then? I'm already inclined to believe him, but before I hammer I want to make sure.

Not necessarily that you're alive, but the lack of a kill last night would suggest it.
Because Scum would have been unlikely to no-kill, and they wouldn't have aimed at deri if he actually was bp.

[goodmorning]

What if they aimed at Deri so that JasonWazza could CC him today?

Why would they bother if they could just no-kill? But it's unlikely that they would have.

[goodmorning]

Also GM your play style is inherently scummy, and I understand why ffery can't read you for shit.

I don't really know what people think is scummy about it, but there's got to be something because it keeps happening.

As soon as Deri got hammered I was like fuck, Jason is lying cause he would have claimed sooner but it was too late.

ryhx played quite well. I'd hate to get on the wrong side of him again.

GOODMORNING HOW DARE YOU EVER SCUMREAD ME YOU NEVER GET TO DO THAT AGAIN OR I WILL OUT CAPSLOCK YOU

NOBODY OUTCAPSLOCKS

ME

, I'M THE GINGERBREAD MAN

By the way. This thread was inspiration for the thread over in mafia discussion. Had deri claimed after best was dead, he should have claimed doctor IMO

I can see where you're coming from but I disagree. Lying about PR claims is always more trouble than it's worth. Plus then the Mafia would have tried to kill him and realized he was the bulletproof since docs in this setup can't protect themselves. And then they could have killed with impunity anyways.

[goodmorning]

As soon as Deri got hammered I was like fuck, Jason is lying cause he would have claimed sooner but it was too late.

Actually no, as a doctor i wouldn't have.

Seriously?

read this carefully everyone

NEVER IN MYLO MAKE A LYNCH

I have convinced 2 different towns to do this.

And again I register strong disagreement. Newbie 1351 was lost because they

didn't

lynch in MyLo.

TBF Deri was acting so scummy Gm had no problem jumping on that wagon, you can see that prediction in the dead quicktopic thread lol

Welllllllll that's one of the reasons I don't feel bad at all about losing this one.
The other is ryhx.
The other other is how well Jason did at convincing me he was in fact the doctor.

[goodmorning]

What do you mean link? The game is a hundred something pages long. MyLo is somewhere around 90? 95?

The game itself is here.

[goodmorning]

If it came down to deadline would hammering a claimed PR or a no lynch be better for town

Yeah, like Jason said it depends on the day and the PR.
The first question is whether the PR makes sense in the setup. If no, lynch it.
Then whether there's a counterclaim. This lynch depends on who's more believable.
Then the question is whether it's D1. If it's D1 it's almost always worth it not to lynch for the chance that that person really is a PR and might manage something overnight. Besides that the Mafia would have to kill them a bit soonish.
Past D1 it depends on the claim, and also gets more into personal opinion.

[goodmorning]

Everyone was agreed on the Scum at MyLo. All no-lynching did was lose the biggest Townread and throw the game into enough confusion that he was able to get a mislynch.
So I still disagree, though I do see the merit of no-lynching at MyLo in some (even most) situations.

[goodmorning]

@GM
Read to much into the subtle moves you were making. My B.

This may be the first time I have ever been accused of being subtle.