Newbie 1390 -- Game Over

[TheGarantula]

I'm new to the site, but only mildly new to the game. I played on a forum unrelated to mafia where private messaging among players was encouraged, the role lists were known and no one had experience. (In essence they were different in most respects and completely noobish)

From what I've gathered from the wiki and reading a couple newbie games, this is the random voting part so...

VOTE: Fegelein
I WILL DESTROY YOU

[TheGarantula]

Oh ok. Apologies to Fegelein then. I'd unvote but it doesn't count anyway xD

[TheGarantula]

To reiterate:
VOTE: Fegelein
I WILL DESTROY YOU

I have no idea how to say your name T-T

[TheGarantula]

I dont know how much scumhunting can realistically be done in the first few hours unless someone has a complete meltdown.

I was reading the first few pages of some newbie games to get a feel for this site and it looks like a lot of the time somebody does end up having a meltdown

[TheGarantula]

I'll explain why it was a semi-serious vote later.

[TheGarantula]

All in good time, I assure you.

^^ So relevant

[TheGarantula]

Spoiler: Responses to some posts so far

hey quick question, can the mafia communicate with each other all the time or just at night time? theeeenks

This could either be Guyett claiming Town or WIFOM-ing as scum so it doesn't tell us much. I'll just write it off as inexperience.

How would you get the names of two scum from the alignment chart?

Yeah, this was just a joke. It was part of RVS

I don't get the logic about me and Jason voting off the 2 most experienced players here, I never put a vote on goodmorning.

I think he was referring to your vote on Cabd, since JasonWazza voted GM during RVS and then Cabd more recently. His argument is that one or both of you are scummy for voting the more experienced players first on shaky grounds.

Which leads me to this:

In other discussion I agree it is a scummy that Cabd claimed that the MOD sent him info mistakenly.

You think:
1. Cabd is scummy
2. Wazza and Fegelein are scummy for voting Cabd

This doesn't really make sense. To me it comes off as scummy, as you have the most scum reads and none of them make that much sense. What do you say about this?

TL;DR:
Derivan yunomakesense?
VOTE: Derivan

[TheGarantula]

Derivan is stumbling over his words a bit, but he's not overly scummy.

Let's wait to hear what he and Cabd have to say about their respective wagons. There isn't much content from either one yet

[TheGarantula]

Also I have one scum read (either JasonWazza or Fegelein) at this point, which is hardly "teh most 3vr", try again.

Anyone else have thoughts on JasonWazza and Fegelein's recent bandwagon jump?

My thoughts are that at least one of them is targeting Cabd and Goodmorning since they appear to be strong players and have posted the most.

In other discussion I agree it is a scummy that Cabd claimed that the MOD sent him info mistakenly.

You clearly said that Wazza and/or Fegelein are acting scummy, as well as Cabd. That puts you at 2 or 3 scum reads, which like I said is more than anyone else has shared so far. As I elaborate on below, I don't think a single one of the three is justified, either. Furthermore, I don't like that you try to shrug off my claim with that sarcastic caricature littered in leet speak.

@The Garantula, do you not agree with my logic regarding Wazza, Fegelein?

No. I don't think it makes any sense. Neither of them legitimately accused GM of anything scummy; Wazza's vote was RVS. As for Cabd, you yourself called him scummy on the same page as both of them, so saying that their actions are suspicious is hypocritical at best and scummy at worst. Explain what differentiates their accusations from yours.

[TheGarantula]

You still haven't explained why you think Cabd was not making a joke, tell us more.

I suppose you'll have to wait until they show up, now won't you?

All in good time, I assure you.

If it's all in good time, hence your waiting for some shit post to come, hence you are banking on it being an activity tell and them flailing?

UNVOTE: goodmorning
VOTE: Cabd

It seems fairly apparent that his qualm wasn't with the joke but with his lack of explanation. You and Guyett were the only two to claim the joke was a scummy move.

Explain what differentiates their accusations from yours.

I have explained the logic (Multiple RVS votes, even if it may be flawed) for my vote, still waiting on some semi-serious explanations for multiple votes other than RVS.

Do you believe that RVS votes are really grounds for any sort of serious accusation? I also don't see you requesting any explanations that haven't been given. What explanations are you waiting for?

[TheGarantula]

Most of you seen to be voting Cabd over his "reaction test" even though Fegelein also claims to have placed a semi-serous vote for the same reason and isn't taking any heat. Why the discrepancy?

[TheGarantula]

*seem and *serious
sorry, typing from my phone

[TheGarantula]

Please take a while to read the thread so far and tell us what you think

[TheGarantula]

Spoiler: Side by side comparison of the two "semi-serious" votes

Last visited:
Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:00 pm

Now i'm sure of it.

That being said, semi-serious vote.

UNVOTE: TheGarantula
VOTE: Derivan

Both of these declarations of "serious" intent are soon followed by these next posts:

I suppose you'll have to wait until they show up, now won't you?

All in good time, I assure you.

I'll explain why it was a semi-serious vote later.

And then:

Lol. You guys are taking that seriously? Like holy crap it was RVS with a pinch of reaction test thrown in for good measure.

Okay then.

Honestly you guys broke it too soon, would have been interesting to see Darq's response.

OK, let me explain why I called it a semi-serious vote.

I wanted the bandwagon to accumulate to L-2, so we could gauge Derivan's reaction. 1 vote isn't going to get a reaction out of somebody, but 3 will. His recent post was null though.

Most of you seen to be voting Cabd over his "reaction test" even though Fegelein also claims to have placed a semi-serous vote for the same reason and isn't taking any heat. Why the discrepancy?

Simple there's a difference between what Fegelein did and what Cabd did, bonus points if you can tell me the difference yourself.

They both posted their explanations ~24 hours after asking us to wait. The differences are that Derivan actually responded to Fegelein's vote and more people posted about Cabd's within that time span. However, I don't think that either of those things would indicated scumminess on Cabd's part. What is it you think I'm missing? No one really seems to be pushing this wagon anymore so I'm willing to let it go; I still would just like to know.

Personally, I believe that Guyett is playing the newb card, a scum trait. He asks about the mafia communication system and then does some analysis on people.

This is just a small suspicion though.

I don't really think showing inexperience in a Newbie game is really a reliable tell. What do you think of the other players so far?

Yes but why would I bring attention on to myself like I did in the post below if I was Scum?
I can assure you I am not scum... but I am not a very useful townie either

This role claim came out of nowhere. What was the point of it?

[TheGarantula]

@Gar
Why do you think my application of logic is more scummy than the reaction tests from Cabd and Fegelein? Also like to hear your reads on everyone else.

As I've said, your logic seems flawed, and while this isn't inherently scummy, ( as both town and scum can use bad logic) combined with your multiple scum reads based on RVS votes and your misrepresentation of my argument against you it felt like it could have been scum-motivated. Fegelein and Cabd both were just trying to apply pressure to otherwise unsubstantial RVS votes on less active players to get the game moving.

As far as my current read on you, I'm going to go over ISO's and see what I think of people so far. Expect to see my reads shortly.

[TheGarantula]

Here are my reads. I didn't bother commenting on posts that I've already talked about a lot since I was mainly just trying to look at the things I hadn't payed much attention to.

Spoiler: bestwillcui

95
I'm not sure what to make of this vote so I'll let it slide as a mistake.
108, 118
This is the third time in this thread a "reaction test" has happened and it's getting pretty old, seeing as they haven't accomplished anything yet. It's an easy excuse seeing as people haven't been targeted much for them yet.
126
Your reads are pretty vague and you end the post saying you will re-evaluate everyone soon. This sounds like an easy way to change your opinions later if you start to take flak. Also, your read on Wazza feels a lot like an OMGUS

My read on bestwillcui is null at best, though I can see scummy motivation behind some of his posts. Before I make more judgments I'll wait for his replies.
@bestwillcui: Have you reread the thread yet, and if so what are your current reads? Do you still suspect Guyett?

Spoiler: Cabd

42, 43, 49, & 51
These four posts are what brought the focus on you, but personally I don't see them very scummy.
75
I assumed this is what you were doing, however as Wazza pointed out, it is also a bit of an easy excuse to use. The sarcasm also comes off as defensive, though this might just be your style.
123
Who is this referring to?

My read on Cabd is null at this point. He hasn't said much of substance so there isn't a lot to go on.
@Cabd: What do you have to say about the discussions thus far? We haven't heard much of your opinions.

Spoiler: Darq

...

...? Darq? Hello?

Spoiler: Derivan

83, 117
Although I had thought you scummy for your logic earlier, these posts are more active than most other players in this game and give off a town vibe.

My read on Derivan null, leaning town, though I'd like to see more content. If his posts continue to actively scumhunt than I'll believe him town.
@Derivan: Who do you find scummy? You seem to have moved on from Wazza but do you still suspect Fegelein at all?

Spoiler: Fegelein

56
Of all the secret pressure votes, this one seems the most genuine due to how you explain yourself and move on.
86
I don't completely understand why you think Derivan's style is fake.
88
It seems very early to be trying to guess scumteams. It also seems like an easy way to try and associate two players who otherwise haven't interacted much.

My read on Fegelein is town so far, as most of his posts seem pro-town and he hasn't flip-flopped much at all.
@Fegelein: What do you think of Derivan's more recent posts? Does he still seem scummy to you? Also what do you think of bestwillcui's recent contributions?

Spoiler: TheGarantula

I'm 101% sure this guy is the Serial Killer !!! plz lynch
@TheGarantula: How can you continuously ball so hard?

Spoiler: goodmorning

98
He shows he isn't afraid to call someone out on reading him town, which ironically comes off as town.

My read on goodmorning is null at worst. The non-IC content he has provided has been good, however due to his V/LA and IC-duty it isn't abundant so it's hard to get a read.
@goodmorning: What do you think of Derivan after his recent posts? Also, what do you think of Guyett and bestwillcui's recent developments? Have any of your opinions changed?

Spoiler: Guyett

45, 66, and 92
You agree with other people a lot but don't provide your own input. You even flipped on Cabd after agreeing with him when other people didn't.
110
This post seems overly defensive, and as I mentioned earlier contains that less-than-subtle role claim. Then you end it with that OMGUS, what gives?
128
You seem to be trying to use Wazza's logic to retro-justify your own vote.

My read on Guyett is leaning scum. Most of his posts are filler or agreeing with other people. He flipped on Cabd with little explanation and got very defensive when called scum even though there was no case on him.
VOTE: Guyett
@Guyett: What do you think of the players besides Wazza and bestwillcui? Do you still think Cabd as scum? Why did you claim vanilla townie without any prompting?

Spoiler: JasonWazza

80
This post seems defensive, but it would seem to just be your aggressive style towards who you is scummy.
90
You say that I have been parroting but don't say that it's scummy. Isn't parroting usually considered an easy way for scum to hide? If so why didn't you suspect me for it?
121
That was a good explanation; I hadn't really considered that.
127
I see where you're coming from but considering that two SE's had also done "reaction tests", it could also just be a newbie trying to learn from the other players. Still, opinion noted.

My read on JasonWazza is town, as he has been very active towards the people he has called out as scum. He also doesn't flip his vote around frequently, showing that he actually is trying to use it for pressure and not just appearance.
@JasonWazza: I know you think bestwillcui is acting scummy, but what do you make of Guyett's defensiveness and role claim? Also, at this point do you consider bestwillcui to be scummier than Cabd or are you just trying to use your vote for something more useful?

[TheGarantula]

You might as well have explained yourself right away. You must have known I would ask you to.

[TheGarantula]

The in-the-spoiler text is different for goodmorning if you look carefully. He uses "you" "yours" "your" etc in all his spoiler text but "he" in goodmorning's.

Please come back to this post later if one of them flips scum.

Oh that's what you meant? Yeah, I kind of forgot about his and ended up doing it last (Sorry goodmorning, I think you're important )
I wouldn't exactly call that a scumtell, though.

I still would like you to provide commentary on the thread, too. The "not on your schedule" thing is nonsense and just sounds unhelpful. You haven't said anything about anything except your RVS vote and pressure shenanigan.

[TheGarantula]

Yeah I haven't role claimed yet?!? Jason is on the money there.

Okay, I misunderstood you, my bad. That was a big part of my suspicion so I'll consider you null-ish again. That said I still think you were overly defensive against bestwillcui, though I guess it could be playstyle.
UNVOTE: Guyett

goodmorning - town read for reasons already stated by me and garantula.

I meant I currently have a null read but don't see scummy motivations behind her posts. I meant it as the opposite of the "null at best" read for bestwillcui.

Also, i'm gonna question the GM read once more, how is she town for questioning someone's town read?

Well I don't think scum would argue with someone calling them town, though I was mainly just taking note of it.

I believe JasonWuzza may be scum for trying to jump on a bandwagon.

Yeah, this is what I meant by OMGUS. Bandwagons are how you pressure someone; it only leads to a lynch if their reactions seem to confirm suspicions. Is he really your #1 scum pick for that?
VOTE: bestwillcui
You seem to be flailing a lot, but I would like to hear more from you.

He makes really long-winded posts which personally appear to me as contrived, and he's fence sitting, locking himself down into ultra defence, without throwing down any vote. He seems to be keen only to advance his own agendas in the game atm.

Hmm, I don't really get that fake feeling from his posts. It seems to me like he started on the defense multiple pages into the thread and just had to catch up and get reads. He also isn't on the defensive for much of his posts.

Go look up sakura hana's scumslip in day one of Max Steel, the newbie game that just recently finished. Same thing, reads list with one read worded in a different language than the others.

Isn't the idea of meta to use the target's game history? :p
Seriously though, SakuraHana's slip wasn't her incorrect use of "you".

Majiffy: Null, now that i notice other than the wagons on PhD and you, he hasn't really said much, but he does look like he's trying to attempt to scumhunt,

even if he's been wrong in both attempts.

We haven't had a flip. How would she know if the two people I pushed on are town?

[TheGarantula]

...?

[TheGarantula]

*bzzt* maybe read context instead of assuming (not to mention that is WIFOMy as fuck).

GM questioned Fege for townreading Guyett

Not what I was talking about...

98
He shows he isn't afraid to call someone out on reading him town, which ironically comes off as town.

just posting to bump this game up a bit.
The spider has me down as possibly town, I'd tend to agree with him. I'm just a useless Irishman

How do you feel about everyone else? any tentative reads at all?

BUT why do you have a townread on me sans explanation? All your other reads were fairly reasoned.

::Insert sarcastic joke about assuming here::

[TheGarantula]

He's saying that Darq is just plain MIA where as you are creating an illusion of activity without actually doing much pro-town

[TheGarantula]

This is almost as bad as "I don't fear the cop, cop me tonight" in the tell list.

Reading the thread from my phone so I'd just like to ask why that's a tell. Not arguing, just curious.

[TheGarantula]

Reading the thread from my phone so I'd just like to ask why that's a tell. Not arguing, just curious.

It's essentially claiming godfather. Town has no reason to induce WIFOM into night action choices.

Oh I thought you meant in this setup

[TheGarantula]

He probably re-read the thread and realized he didn't understand that quoted post. The first reply of his definitely sounds like he agrees that lurking is scummy, which would align with his other comments; it doesn't seem to imply that he is saying anything about your earlier post about the alignment chart.

If you really think he is scummy why are you picking out such a weak example as your only evidence?

[TheGarantula]

My point was that you said you were going to make a big case for him but you only cited 1 example from his previous posts.

[TheGarantula]

It isn't like I posted 5 minutes after you wondering where the rest of your case was. It's been 6 hours and you haven't made a wall or a series of posts; you just made one. Why would you start to make a case without finishing? What point does that serve?

Okay, you're totally wavering caught scum now, guylett.

What wavering? He didn't change any of his positions since your reply.

[TheGarantula]

Mmm, 'dat chainsaw.

Was this directed towards me?

[TheGarantula]

I know you're really busy with that big case about Guyett that you're constructing, but could you reply to these questions of mine?

Okay, you're totally wavering caught scum now, guylett.

What wavering? He didn't change any of his positions since your reply.

Mmm, 'dat chainsaw.

Was this directed towards me?

[TheGarantula]

OK, can someone on the Best wagon explain to me why he's scum? I iso'd him and he's just a little bit newby and slapdash. Sure, he could flip scum, but I'm finding that unlikely. He's being set up as an easy target here.

Again, Derivan is scummy for jumping on the wagon without adding anything. Can we have more pressure on this guy?

I get that he's playing newbie-ish but his various attempts to shift attention without really hunting at all seem fishy.

Examples:

I believe JasonWuzza may be scum for trying to jump on a bandwagon.

I'm lurking?

If you want to lynch a lurker today, then why not lynch Darq?

Also:

Guyett seems less suspicious than before, because he has posted some helpful evidence and analysis.

This post is weird since Guyett's post to which he refers (which was about how scum might not seem scummy) wasn't really helpful at all. (It suggests no other alternative method of hunting) It just seems like an excuse to back-off and get out of everyone's cross-hairs . Since then he hasn't done anything to scumhunt or redeem himself. He just seems to be
trying to stay out of the focus which isn't something town needs to do.

[TheGarantula]

OK, can someone on the Best wagon explain to me why he's scum? I iso'd him and he's just a little bit newby and slapdash. Sure, he could flip scum, but I'm finding that unlikely. He's being set up as an easy target here.

Again, Derivan is scummy for jumping on the wagon without adding anything. Can we have more pressure on this guy?

I get that he's playing newbie-ish but his various attempts to shift attention without really hunting at all seem fishy.

Examples:

I believe JasonWuzza may be scum for trying to jump on a bandwagon.

I'm lurking?

If you want to lynch a lurker today, then why not lynch Darq?

Also:

Guyett seems less suspicious than before, because he has posted some helpful evidence and analysis.

This post is weird since Guyett's post to which he refers (which was about how scum might not seem scummy) wasn't really helpful at all. (It suggests no other alternative method of hunting) It just seems like an excuse to back-off and get out of everyone's cross-hairs . Since then he hasn't done anything to scumhunt or redeem himself. He just seems to be
trying to stay out of the focus which isn't something town needs to do.

[TheGarantula]

OK, can someone on the Best wagon explain to me why he's scum? I iso'd him and he's just a little bit newby and slapdash. Sure, he could flip scum, but I'm finding that unlikely. He's being set up as an easy target here.

Again, Derivan is scummy for jumping on the wagon without adding anything. Can we have more pressure on this guy?

I get that he's playing newbie-ish but his various attempts to shift attention without really hunting at all seem fishy.

Examples:

I believe JasonWuzza may be scum for trying to jump on a bandwagon.

I'm lurking?

If you want to lynch a lurker today, then why not lynch Darq?

Also:

Guyett seems less suspicious than before, because he has posted some helpful evidence and analysis.

This post is weird since Guyett's post to which he refers (which was about how scum might not seem scummy) wasn't really helpful at all. (It suggests no other alternative method of hunting) It just seems like an excuse to back-off and get out of everyone's cross-hairs . Since then he hasn't done anything to scumhunt or redeem himself. He just seems to be
trying to stay out of the focus which isn't something town needs to do.

[TheGarantula]

Woah, not sure what happened to my internet there but could the mod please delete the extras? T-T

[TheGarantula]

JasonWuzza: I read his meta and he does play this style, so he is probably town. However, he is trying to point out that this is the way he plays when he is town, which seems a bit strange.

I wouldn't use meta to say that someone is probably town. It's too WIFOM-y. Also, if I'm not mistaken he pointed out his own meta when people complained about his playstyle as a point. How is that scummy?

Derivan: appears a little scummy and lurking quite a bit, but I don't understand why Fegelein is pushing for a lynch on him.

This says more about Fegelein than it does Derivan.

Cabd: There seems to be a huge wagon on him and I kind of understand it, but it seems a little over. However, he does look a little scummy

Cabd only has one vote on him.

TheGarantula: plays like pro-town, but sometimes his reasoning is a bit flawed.

Example?

@bestwillcui: Do you think you could actually provide evidence/quotes for your reads? Just saying someone acts scummy does nothing. Scum wouldn't want to be overly specific, (if they didn't make a big case for scum than it won't take a big case to back off later) but town wants evidence to prevent mislynches.

@fegelein and goodmorning: What makes you two so sure that bestwillcui is newbtown as opposed to newbscum? You guys are an SE and IC so I'm sure you have good reason to think so. If you both think it would be a mis-lynch then I'd like to know why.

P-edit:

Someone is backpedaling onto the same read as someone who is being seen as town.

I don't know if I could even call this backpedaling. He's gone from popular, vague opinions to other popular, vague opinions. T-T

[TheGarantula]

If someone got quickhammered without being allowed to respond I think the voter would be pretty quickly bandwagoned the next day, if even only out of policy.

[TheGarantula]

@Jason: You're over-reacting, and that makes you look really opportunistic. While I sort of see where you are coming from, it doesn't change the fact that he's probably a newb towny who's indecisive and a little bit worried about his appearance, but not in a scummy way.

@Garan: I'm trying to look at his motives for the stuff he does, and they're more likely to come from newb Town than newb Scum. Also, it's kind of a gut feeling too. Also read Jason.

@Gar: From the readslist in particular

I would personally have expected more null-leaning-scum reads.

Instead he's got about 2 Towns, a leaning Town, a pro-Town, 2 Nulls (one for lack of activity), and 2 leaning Scums. For all intents and purposes that looks proportionally like a readslist a wishywashy newbTown would have.

NewbScum usually would wishywashy their way to "well everyone looks kinda scummy, I don't really know" and top that off with a vote on one of the top wagons.

This is a fair point, but it seems a little WIFOM-y. I guess I didn't really think about the lack of vote from a newb-town perspective though.

best

:
His posts read more newb town then scum to me. He was lurking even after being coached in thread not to lurk. He's still not voting depite a lot of prompting that that's very scummy.

I feel like if he was newb scum he'd be trying harder to not be so scummy

. Either way, I'm willing to let him live a little longer to see him post more.

That makes sense I guess, but I feel like some of his posts and scumreads could have been meant to distract from the wagon that was forming on him. That said Feg's post could explain those.

I see where you guys are coming from regarding best, though I'd like to hear more from him. I doubt he'll be lynched very soon anyway, given the current state of the thread, so there should be plenty time to pin him down

[TheGarantula]

Yeah, all he did was reiterate his own quotes to show that he'd been involved with Cabd for a while. He didn't actually make new points :p

[TheGarantula]

Well, you can't be the first to post everything. Anyway, this is more game theory but its my undertanding that its better not to overly elaborate on who is really town, so I err that way.

I also feel like I read this at some point, but I don't really understand why it would help scum in a newbie game. They already know who is town so it doesn't really tell them anything, meanwhile it helps with process of elimination for town.

[TheGarantula]

Oh, and I asked, "Are we allowed to breadcrumb in this game?" or something along those lines.

Why would you want to breadcrumb? Breadcrumbing can only benefit scum.

[TheGarantula]

How is that a town slip?

[TheGarantula]

I'm curious, not arguing btw.

I remember responding to bestwillcui's post about breadcrumbs before but I don't remember anything after that last I had checked. What all was posted?

P-Edit:
@goodmorning: What can breadcrumbing do for town? Isn't the idea that town can use it as evidence of their roles? If so, scum can fake it easily. They also can use it to communicate on the downlow.

[TheGarantula]

Therefore there's ZERO scum motivation to crumb and ask about it openly day one. Especially since it is a semi-open setup, scum does NOT know which setup we're in, and fake-crumbing a role not in the setup is as good as signing their own death warrant later.

Hmm, but can't scum do it in such a way as to be too subtle to be detected without it being pointed out directly? That way they can pick which fake crumbing of theirs to point out later should they decide to claim. Also, I didn't mean to say that his inquiry was scummy; I was just expressing the idea that the act itself seems pointless for town.
Just to clarify, breadcrumbing

is

where you would, for example, use the first letters of your sentences to spell "DOCTOR" so that later you can say "See look I'm not lying; I really am the doctor," by pointing it out.

From someone who has been doubted even WITH a crumb: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
(this residual animosity is in no way directed at you)

Well as you can probably guess from what I've said about breadcrumbing, I probably wouldn't have believed you because of it XP

[TheGarantula]

Whoops, didn't preview well enough, sorry. That last sentence to Cabd should have been a question. T-T

[TheGarantula]

I'm not sure if Cabd should be considered stalling seeing as he is the one who asked the mod about extending the day

[TheGarantula]

Hmm, the last time you posted reads you said Guyett was null; Cabd and Derivan were the only two you said seemed scummy but didn't read as null.

Derivan: appears a little scummy and lurking quite a bit, but I don't understand why Fegelein is pushing for a lynch on him.

Guyett: has some scummy traits, but more town aspects. Null

Cabd: There seems to be a huge wagon on him and I kind of understand it, but it seems a little over. However, he does look a little scummy

You also pointed to JasonWazza as being scummy for bandwagoning but then 180'd without explanation. Why did you choose Guyett as scummiest this time? What makes him more scummy than the other three you previously mentioned?

[TheGarantula]

Yeah. Asking for deadline extension is not alignment indicative at all.

Yeah I didn't mean it was a townie indication, just that it seemed to contradict his one accusation a bit.

[TheGarantula]

In the middle of your ISO and I just felt like pointing something out:

Post 77 ALARM BELLS ALARM BELLS Buddies right up to garg’s townread of him, emphasizing it

I hadn't ever said he was a town read of mine at that point, so I'm not sure where he got that from. I thought I'd said that earlier but I guess not.

[TheGarantula]

By "I thought I'd said that earlier," I mean "I thought I'd pointed out that mistake/confusion in an earlier post."

[TheGarantula]

tl;dr: Guyett thinks most of Cabd's posts reek of scum?

Why exactly are you voting Best over Cabd if you think he's so scummy?

P-Edit:

D'oh

post 99 some excuse for not posting much.. any sign on that info yet?

You sort of missed the point of that post... The "info" was just part of his pressure ploy.

post 213 I dont even see how what I posted is suspicious...

The ordering was supposedly suspicious; you agree with him but then question him on the thing you seemingly agreed with. Also, I made a post already that responded to him about that.

post 300 Eh scum dont know the exact setup but instead of a 1 in 6 guess they have a 1 in 2 guess of what set up it is. Those odds are nice for fake claiming a role via breadcrumbs

How do you arrive at 1 in 2? Also, goodmorning and Cabd made a fairly good case as to why breadcrumbing as scum isn't smart in a game like this.

P-Edit:

The fuck is this? Am I being counter-ISO'd or something?

Is that even a thing like seriously what?

inorite?
Guyett are you just doing this as an OMGUS-type-thing?

[TheGarantula]

What about JasonWazza and Cabd?

[TheGarantula]

Yeah, that's L-1.

@JasonWazza: What made you give up on the bestwillcui wagon? He hasn't done much of anything to redeem himself. Furthermore, Cabd has already stated his plans to post ISO's, so what is the added pressure hoping to accomplish in the meantime?

[TheGarantula]

post 292 asking for an extension due to the outage.... as GM pointed out she did this in another game while playing as scum
post 294 not a townslip.... covering for your scum buddy?
post 300 Eh scum dont know the exact setup but instead of a 1 in 6 guess they have a 1 in 2 guess of what set up it is. Those odds are nice for fake claiming a role via breadcrumbs

1) Not an alignment tell. At all.
2) Already explained by cabd
2) 1 in 4 are shit odds and you're the one being disingeneous if you're supporting in as a good idea.

#2 is fairly interesting, seeing as Guyett skipped Cabd's post 299 which clarified. Like I said earlier, Guyett's whole ISO felt OMGUS-y, though he got defensive towards bestwillcui earlier as well, so I'm not sure if it is necessarily scummy since this is a newbie game.

Vote: Deri

This is not a reprieve for Cabd, just a temporary move of vote to be a bit surer that he does indeed say what he's going to say.

And oh, Deri. I think you and my vote may be having a little chat soon.

What made you suspect Derivan? Do you agree with Fegelein's assertions?

from the other 6 players the only one that I'm relatively confident that is town is Gar.

What happened to your town read on goodmorning? It seems to have vanished over the last few pages.

[TheGarantula]

What made you suspect Derivan? Do you agree with Fegelein's assertions?

Starting in 98 where I call him out for ridiculous assertions about RVS.
Now it has something to do with the way he seems to be hanging out outside game continuity with his posts, if that makes sense, and a little bit of lacking follow-up.

Oh yea, I forgot about the posts way back when. (it feels like forever ago XD)
I'd agree that his earlier posts were odd, but I'd say he seems to be fairly concerned with scumhunting despite his relative inactivity. TBH, I don't quite understand what you mean by "outside game continuity," could you try to rephrase that?

[TheGarantula]

@bestwillcui

What about JasonWazza and Cabd?

What made Guyett seem scummier to you than Derivan, Cabd, and JasonWazza?

[TheGarantula]

Did you not read my post?

Your post doesn't mention anything about bestwillcui or why Cabd is

more

scummy than him. You previously described bestwillcui as "scummy as fuck" and asked for someone to declare hammer intent, but now you have jumped off his wagon without commenting on him further.

Best is still scummy, but Cabd's more scummy, is it really that hard a concept to grasp?

Of all the people on Best's wagon, you seemed the most enthusiastic; however, the only justification you gave for leaving his wagon was shaky at best. Guyett's reads were very fluffy, and it seems apparent that Cabd was looking for stated reads as opposed to implied ones. How does that make him scummier than your previous suspect?

You also didn't answer my question about what you wanted to accomplish with the Cabd wagon. He has already promised specific content and I doubt a wagon is going to make him provide it faster.

Cabd: I knew there was probably gonna be a big wagon on him, and I didn't want to start the wagon.

Why don't you want to start wagons? That sounds concerned about

appearing

rather than

playing

.

[TheGarantula]

My turn to say this:

Did you not read my post?

The post is about you not Cabd.

[TheGarantula]

Once again,

[TheGarantula]

The thing is, we have less than 48 hours before the day is up. If any cases are going to be made, they should be made now.

[TheGarantula]

@bestwillcui: Why are you resistant to start popular wagons like Cabd's, but willing to join Derivan's?

[TheGarantula]

Do you mean between Cabd and Derivan? Probably Cabd, although Derivan hasn't posted since his wagon formed, and I'm still looking forward to Cabd's ISOs.
I don't totally get what you guys are saying about Derivan's posting style; it seems to just be a townie trying to play logically mixed with inactivity. (Though the relative inactivity does make him hard to read)

That said, I still think bestwillcui hasn't done enough to have his wagon drop so my vote will remain for now.

[TheGarantula]

It's a hedge... Because he said hedging...
Could someone tell me what QT means in this context?

Forget who said it first, but “Scum comes into a thread from a QT. Town comes into it blind kicking and screaming”

[TheGarantula]

There's no way the above reads list was faked to match my own reads, so that post is genuine fwiw.

How do you know this? I don't understand. (That's not sarcasm is it?)

[TheGarantula]

Wasn't goodmorning the other one who promised reads, not Derivan?

[TheGarantula]

People on the Derivan wagon: Please, either try to make a solid case as to why he is scum or express any reservations you have towards the bestwillcui wagon. We need to lynch someone so let's figure out who is best.

[TheGarantula]

I don't really think that was a PR slip, it seemed more like a newbie who's close to being lynched flailing about.

[TheGarantula]

Maybe the ISO posts aren't the biggest issue right now; there's only 7 hours left and no one is even at L-1. At this point I think if anyone posts without voting we can be fairly certain that they are aiming for a no-lynch.
Derivan, you've been reviewing posts. Who are you going to vote for?

[TheGarantula]

Is it because he said "bussed" instead of "bandwagoned"/"lynched" or because the quote in question is from post 283, not 254?

[TheGarantula]

Hey guys I was casing Derivan when this jumped out at me:

@everyone: Best calling other people newbs doesn't lend to the 'just a newb' theory, even though his actions/responses I agree appear newbish. It almost feels to me that he is being coached to appear more newb than he his. Anyone disagree?

To quote Cabd: Town. Fucking. Slip. amirite? Except thanks to Guyett everyone should know scum can only talk at night. And Derivan has thus far struck me as pretty conscientious and has clearly been reading the thread carefully, so I know he knows.

I initially had 2 reasons for believing it to be a townslip:
1. I've had similar thoughts about best, its easy to fall back on scumhunting logic from other mafia games, so especially if he's played on other sites where scum can talk throughout the day.
2. He didn't try to push the post into our consciousness to get someone to notice it, so it seems like a genuine slip.

Of course thats where it gets pretty WIFOM. Cause he could be a master scum planting a town slip just waiting for someone to pick it up.

I've been thinking about this for a while now and am just confusing myself and the deadline looming isn't making it better. I don't know what to think myself but with only a few hours left I want to throw this out there before its too late.

Is my reasoning for thinking its a town sliip even valid?

Also I'll be around for the deadline, so you can count on my vote to force a lynch. Since Derivan is on L-1 already I'll hold back and wait for someone to claim or I can sort out my thoughts about the above.

I read it more as this: since bestwillcui is having his anti-town play excused as just newbtown, he's purposefully trying to look

even more newbish

, not that someone was actively telling him to act newbish.

[TheGarantula]

So in essence, those calling him newbtown are the ones "coaching" him.

[TheGarantula]

If Deri claims but bestwillcui doesn't, or vice versa, what then?

[TheGarantula]

Wait doesn't claiming bulletproof make it worthless? T-T

[TheGarantula]

...welp fuck. T-T
At least now I don't have to stay up, though I probably still will.

[TheGarantula]

Both of the first two games I'm in have had a Day 1 quickhammer. At least unlike the other one this game didn't have it on page 3 XP

[TheGarantula]

Well at least he apoloagoses

[TheGarantula]

Cabd it was a joke :p
Also, why do you think you'll get NKed?

[TheGarantula]

If we end up no-lynching I'm wallposting wet kittens. Seriously. No lynch is bad and anyone helping no lynch happen should feel bad.

Is drunk hammering worse than no lynching?.....

Happy Graduation. Go to bed.

[TheGarantula]

Oh ok. I thought you maybe thought you would be targeted for some reason only the experienced players would recognize.

What makes you suspect Fegelein in both cases?

[TheGarantula]

Wait, why would Best being town confirm Derivan as scum?

[TheGarantula]

If best flips PR I'm going to cry.
GM, you're an IC. How good are associative tells?

[TheGarantula]

What is the Amish tell? I'm on my phone so looking it up would be annoying

[TheGarantula]

That's a tell? I don't understand.

[TheGarantula]

It's too late to meta. I'll try and check them out in the morning.

[TheGarantula]

Oh good more reaction testing

[TheGarantula]

That was a reaction test. You passed!
I'm going to bed now; I don't know what I can contribute at this point.

[TheGarantula]

One last thing. That part about not dying tonight from Derivan sounds so weird.

[TheGarantula]

Cabd getting NK'd and the hammer last night are making Guyett look scummy.

That said, I think I'm gonna have to reread this thread since bestwillcui flipped town. T-T

[TheGarantula]

Guyett's matyr 'deserved to be lynched, please lynch me' shtick is kind of bugging me.

What I find strange is that he says to policy lynch him multiple times but then switches to "jk plz don't" once people express suspicion of him.

[TheGarantula]

I haven't had the chance to reread the thread yet due to the 4th of July and such. That said, Guyett you look worse with each post. The hammer itself was annoying at best, but how you've behaved s since then doesn't seem town.
VOTE: Guyett
You've been a fairly null read for most of the game, but right now you seem like the best bet. No one else has been floundering as constantly as you.

Sorry for not citing quotes but I'm on my phone. I'll look over the thread tonight/tomorrow and reevaluate everyone.

[TheGarantula]

V/LA (limited internet access) for a week, though I might be able to come on for a bit each day. I'll try to post thoughts and stay up to date though.

[TheGarantula]

Also, Guyett, your current thing with Jason is pedantic/stupid. If you're going to make a case against him
, then build a case, but this seems desperate and scummy. Town shouldn't grasp at straws, it won't effectively find scum.

[TheGarantula]

I'm coming back from vacation today. At least this way I don't have too much catching up to do.

I should qualify that that isn't being opportunistic, I've already stated who I think the scum might be and Klick is in that group of 3.... think of this as intent to vote Klick unless there is a decent bit of work done by klick within 12 hours.

How is waiting to vote someone who hasn't posted yet until someone else votes them first not opportunistic? Your earlier statement about your suspicion of Kick was essentially, "He hasn't voted yet, but he could be scum." You weren't exactly committing to a vote

or even further suspicion

.

[TheGarantula]

No, if you self-vote that's one less vote necessary to lynch you, meaning we have one less vote to analyze after your flip. Of your town keep playing until the end.

[TheGarantula]

Sloooow game.

@TIP: Have you gotten a chance to read yet?
@Rhyx: Who is your scummiest pick as of now?

[TheGarantula]

I'm pretty sure she just didn't bother including him since he's confirmed town.

[TheGarantula]

In order of town to null to scum:
Derivan
Rhyx
goodmorning
JasonWazza
TIP
Guyett

Cuinis bothar cailin bainne

What is this?

[TheGarantula]

Also why am i still your no 1 scum choice?

You are still my scummiest pick because there have been approximately 0 new developments since I posted about you last.

[TheGarantula]

Also why am i still your no 1 scum choice?

You are still my scummiest pick because there have been approximately 0 new developments since I posted about you last.

[TheGarantula]

The case on Gar is looking great

inb4 this ends with you saying, "It was a reaction test."

Could you put your reasons for me being scum in one coherent post please.

Here are some reasons:
You have done a lot of buddying. (e.g. Post 77, which seems to try and put words in my mouth)
You have been very prone to OMGUS. (e.g. Your votes on bestwillcui and Cabd, and possibly JasonWazza now)
You have probably set a new record in terms of the number of times someone has called themselves townie in a single game.
Your cases haven't been solid. (Our bestwillcui mislynch being the exception in my mind :/)
You had the very weird "vote me, but don't vote me" phase near the start of Day 2.
Your vote seems to be lower in value than the Mark after WW1.
Dat hammer.

We'll be in lylo and you and gar Will likely be targeted.

Are you saying I'm likely to be NK'd or bandwagoned if you get lynched?

[TheGarantula]

1)well in a previous post you had me as town... not exactly putting words in your mouth.
2) yeah sometimes I've done that... didn't know it was exclusively scum that did OMGUS though
3) so... I'll keep on doing it and Nobody Special will use it when he reveals my role too.
4) my case on best was solid, as was the case on Cabd imo... Cabd was inactive and looked scummy until he finally posted reads at which point I backed off. Best behaved in a way that could have been scummy or newb... we all thought he was acting odd.
5)that was because I was so pissed off with myself for that stupid drunk hammer. I'm surprised I wasn't hammered there and then tbh. I'd have understood it as it looked super scummy but I know that if I was hammered you'd be in lylo
6) how is that related to my alignment? did you just add that in as a witty joke?
7) already explained.

1. No, I didn't. I've read you as null or lower all game.
2. Nothing is done exclusively by scum. Almost all your votes have been against someone voting you.
3. It looks desperate, like scum flailing when pressured. You start doing it the second someone votes you.
4. Your case on Cabd was pure OMGUS mixed with grievance about his delayed ISOs.
6. Your vote has been tossed around so casually it's as if you don't care whom it lands on half of the time. It seems as if you are moving it a lot in order to feign productivity.

It is obvious I'm being set up as a scapegoat by mafia after the hammer.. you'll see after my flip or if one of the people leading my wagon is lynched

Why is this obvious...? When bestwillcui was being pressured he could have said the same thing about you. I'd bet that scum loves to watch town lynch town.

[TheGarantula]

2) how many of them were posted after they voted for me?
3) I'll say it again, if you want lylo on day 3 lynch me today.
4) was that the first or 2nd time I was on his case?
6) examples?

2. Checked again, I thought bestwillcui hadvoted you with his opening post but he didn't, he did it right afterwards. My bad. Still, you only voted him because he said he suspected you. Later we see you voting Cabd and JasonWazza after they voted you.
3. Oh, now I'm convinced.

Everyone, my suspicions are wrong: Guyett insisted that he is town so clearly he is.

4. You voted him twice, but you were really only on his case the second time.
6. You have multiple silly votes: Your OMGUS vote on Cabd that didn't actually make him provide reads sooner, your two votes on GM, your vote on the no-show Klick (which you didn't even do right away), and your vote on yourself.

ok lets look back over events.
game is tied at 4-4 with a few hours left
I come home after ~16 hours drinking due to my graduation and in my drunken folly hammer someone
Mafia then kill the other person that I mainly suspected on day 1... if I was mafia I'd have killed rhyx or gar then as obv townies
WHY THE HELL WOULD I BRING MORE ATTENTION ON MYSELF AFTER THE QUICKHAMMER?

WIFOM like this was already mentioned earlier in this thread, and goodmorning's reasoning does make some sense.

I voted Gar at first because his constant buddying and hiphopping threw me off

What is hiphopping? Also, why is it you that think I've been constantly buddying?

Also, @GM: Why are you now posting in caps so much. You didn't really do that so much day 1.

[TheGarantula]

Haha, sorry I switched "think" and "that". I need more sleep I guess XD
It should say, "Why is it that you think I've been constantly buddying?"

[TheGarantula]

I feel like this captures my thoughts nicely:

THAT MEANS LITTLE TO ME

Didn't you say you had a big case? Or was that really just another "reaction test"?

[TheGarantula]

This game just got 10000x more ridiculous

You avatar goes so well with that comment.

Sorry for the filler, just wanted to say that.

@Derivan: Have your reads changed? What do you think of lynching Guyett? I'm fairly certain there isn't going to be a CC at this point so your input as confirmed town is valuable.

[TheGarantula]

I saw my predecessor was in a tough spot, so I claimed in case he had not. In any case, it mattered little.

But if Feg had claimed anything other than VT it certainly would have mattered since one of you would have lied in that case.

Well, from a Vanilla Townie TIP perspective, it would have made no sense for Fegelein to claim anything but VT. The only reason TIP would care what Feg claimed is if he was a PR or scum, and since he claiming VT it's consistent for him to not. (You personally should be able to rule out the possibility that TIP is a PR, right?)

[TheGarantula]

If I'm suddenly a top suspect, why haven't you voted me? Am I scum now because I provided the case you asked for?

[TheGarantula]

As VT why would you want to knowingly cause a mislynch? Is it really better than no lynch? I don't think I completely understand.

[TheGarantula]

That was with regards to GM's hypothetical.

[TheGarantula]

That was a good explanation, thanks. I think the part I was missing the most was the 3-1 vs 2-2 point and the extra mislynch in general.

[TheGarantula]

Derivan I think the case is much stronger on Guyett than anything on goodmorning.

[TheGarantula]

Circumstantial? What does that even mean in this context? Scum are identified needed on their reactions to different

circumstances.

[TheGarantula]

*Based, not needed. Sorry typing on my phone with swiftkeys.

[TheGarantula]

My case hardly hinges on the drunk hammer. You mention it more than anyone else.

[TheGarantula]

If Guyett is gone, what else is there to discuss?

[TheGarantula]

If I die, look at Hiplop. Fegelein had very little interaction with Guyett. Unless Guyett flips town, then fuck me.

[TheGarantula]

@goodmorning as the IC: Does me being alive confirm JasonWazza's claim, then? I'm already inclined to believe him, but before I hammer I want to make sure.

[TheGarantula]

What if they aimed at Deri so that JasonWazza could CC him today?

[TheGarantula]

No killing would be worse than shooting Derivan in case the CC wasn't believed.

[TheGarantula]

What if they aimed at Deri so that JasonWazza could CC him today?

I so called it. I was predicting GM and JasonWazza though

[TheGarantula]

FWIW I knew it was jason once I died. I didn't know who the partner was though. Ryhx played well. Win well deserved.

How'd you know?

[TheGarantula]

Super props go to Ryhx. Even in hindsight I read you as town. T-T

[TheGarantula]

I look forward to playing with ryhx again. When you're town I'm sure you'll be a great asset.