Newbie 1391 - Game Over - FINALLY!!!

[Nachomamma8]

She's fine at L-2.

Antagon is probably Town.

Agreed, Miss Strangers' wish to edit posts, changing votes on a joke bw could be newness or perhaps an early scumtell?

Her wish to edit posts is probably based on the site she comes from which allows that sort of thing.
Changing votes from a joke bandwagon to a serious one is always a good move.

No point in making specific thoughts on comments made at this stage as most will say it was a joke. Best to include it with anything later when it truly begins to matter.

Why are you so worried with how others will perceive you? If it's not a joke, then it will help us get into that stage where things WILL start to matter.

Vote: Generic

[Nachomamma8]

I never said I was worried with how people perceive me? I explained why I did it. Why you putting words in my mouth?

Are you a Generic alt?

Either way it says more about nachomamma than me, very trigger happy. Unless that's how you do it around here, I would have just probed the suspicion further.

You refuse to make comments on the game because you expect they'll be interpreted as jokes, but you're not really that afraid to make a comment on me when I start attacking you. Why?

And to address the point, if its not a joke and you jump on it before they post further they will just say it is under the guise of RVS. You leaping in to call them on it just closes them up, if you wait and see what they do next you build a case for it.

You don't need to wait until you have a grocery list of offenses they've committed in order to build a case on them; all you have to do is start pressing them when they say something that doesn't make sense.

[Nachomamma8]

What observations did you hold back before because you thought they would be dismissed too easily?

[Nachomamma8]

Oh no, it's backseat scumhunting Nacho again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY0
sorry Feg, I'm not a "sittin in the front seat" type of guy.

Immediately gen wolf stood out with the 'lets wrap this one up early' comment, but as I expected it was explained away as a joke.

Anything else?

Why are you so keen to press me further now nacho, you already threw down your vote, I would hope you weren't so trigger happy that you didn't feel it was justified in your mind, why now trying to assert my alignment with the interrogation?

Because that's the way I operate. Scum are more likely to slip up if you're pressuring them, and when you pressure town, you can sometimes kick them into gear.

Newbie 1344, all he pretty much did is ask questions, flipped scum.

You see a similarity to my town play and my scum play in an old game.
You are currently voting someone random. Why aren't you voting me?

[Nachomamma8]

But what gets me is that even though Miss Stranger was apparently less alarming than Gene_Wolf, you still awarded Miss Stranger with a vote yet Gene_Wolf was not worthy of a vote until 4 hours later.

I agree with this. Especially since this:

Yeah, I changed my vote later because I didn't realize at the time he is an SE.

Doesn't really explain it that well.

If you are not satisfied with the explanation then that means if I hadn't done that RVS would have been longer, would you have liked RVS to be longer? Plus you have given quite a nice reaction to a reaction test.

What was his reaction and what did you get from it?

Yes I am very serious. Just because you have more posts does not make you more involved. It could just mean your posting more fluff.

That's true, but it's a useless statement unless he IS posting more fluff, which you're sort of indirectly hinting at but not actually saying.

I liked Generic's #61. I feel those sorts of things are overkill on page 3, but my perception of him as passive, coasting scum is clearly wrong.

It's also worth to note however that I also find Feel It oportunistic, but so was Gen_Wolf's suggestion on me. Hence why I think one of them is evil.

Why just one?

He's sort of sitting back and just asking questions instead of providing real counter arguments against people.

Explain.

You know what, screw bolding, can't be bothered anymore.

(thank god)

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Gen Wolf

I think that Generic's response to pressure has been excellent; my original problem with him was that I thought he was trying to justify not providing analysis by claiming that he was afraid that everything he did would be taken as a joke and dismissed, but his recent analysis has blown that point out of the water. I also thought that his initial suspicion of me had very nice trajectory; the kneejerk response caused by OMGUS, that was slowly whittled away during the course of our exchange and ended up being leaning town, but not that town.

Miss Stranger is also becoming a strong townread as well. I like her response to pressure, and I like that she hasn't immediately jumped on her attackers even though she probably could have. I think she'd do well to place a vote down and be a little more aggressive, but the start is good.

UNVOTE: Antagon.

Vote is on hold until we get some input from other players. My current analysis:
Fegelein: leaning town
Feel It: null
Gen_Wolf: scummy
Antagon: null

Do you remember why Fegelein was a townread here?

Champianoman and Feel It are also town.

[Nachomamma8]

Already addressed in post #54 ("from the reactions it got I would have to place Feel It as my top scum candidate. This based on his extreme focus on this one post which clearly has been shown as a joke and secondly from his pure lack of involvment in other areas of the game. Almost as if he is avoiding the game because he has something to hide.") Did you deliberately omit that post and why?

Nope, definitely missed that one. Although now that you bring it up, I'm curious what you think of it. I think it's inaccurate and OMGUS-y.

I definitely agree he's not a passive scum, was just a little restrained at first. I like his comprehensive analysis, but I find some alarming conclusions in it, which is why I can't yet pinpoint him as town.

What alarming conclusions? Why does it matter that he's drawn different conclusions than you have as long as the way he gets there makes sense?

Because it sounds pretty counterinituitive to me for both to be scum. FI won't get too much town credit if GW gets lynched and revealed as mafia, and neither would GW in the opposite event. I don't think the end justifies the means.

Interesting. Why do they need town credit when one is lynched in order to be mafia together?

[Nachomamma8]

Genuine question: what is backseat scumhunting and is it a good thing?

Don't ignore my questions, oh mighty IC! ^^;

Backseat scumhunting is generally where you take safe potshots at people from the stands, don't stick your neck out too much, ask a lot of questions but never actually make a push on someone. It's usually a very bad thing, but it does have its place.

[Nachomamma8]

Gen_Wolf has been away for a while, and I need to hear a little more from himself, as well as from Antagon, James May, Fegelein and Champ on him. Gen_Wolf is becoming a main wagon, but I need more reasons and opinions before I place a vote.

What are your reasons for disliking Gen right now?

I'm not exactly certain what is definitely a towntell that makes one pinpoint a person in the town zone. At this point I can't strictly say that for anyone. You and Champ *feel* town at this point, but it's merely a feeling, just like Fegelein was.

I function less on towntells and more on "does this person's actions make more sense coming from a town perspective of a scum one?". Get inside people's heads, figure out why they are doing what they are doing.

I don't think FI has something to hide, but rather has nothing to say, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

Well if he doesn't have something to hide, he's probably town.

Because FI immediately jumped on GW, previously unsuspected, right this early into the game, and is currently driving a wagon on him that gains momentum with increasing certainty. I find throwing one partner under the bus, especially on Day 1, without gaining any town credit of sorts, simply unsubstantiated and illogical. Or am I overlooking a grand WIFOM and bloody gambit?

Yeah, it's very rare that mafia would bus each other that hard right out of the gate.

[Nachomamma8]

The only thing I ask that as townie players please do not lynch me anytime soon. We have 12 days to lynch someone. Within those 12 days if you still feel the need to lynch me that is mellow but at least take the other 12 days for scum to talk there way into trouble.

There's no reason to get fatalistic 4 pages into the game. What do you think of the case against you?

It is almost like a double bluff knowing the Feg wont.

I have no idea what this means.

Nice long post. Pity there is no content in it. I could summarise this entire post as 'Reiterate a few things already said, point out some really obvious stuff and deflect any possibility of offering my own opinion by asking a return question. Your next few posts over the next hour are very similar too.

I haven't avoided giving my opinions anywhere. You want one? Ask for one.
Generating content early game can either be through broad stroke analysis or early game questioning. I'm more of the questioning type as opposed to the broad stroke analysis type; my thoughts on who is scum/town bounces around a lot early game unless I get lucky and pick up on a smoking gun. Although, I'll admit that I picked up on you as a player with a similar playstyle, so I found the "no content" charge a bit strange.

You are one of the more experienced players aren't you?

He's also a newbie.

[Nachomamma8]

I was a bit weary of Champ buddying up a bit

I wouldn't have guessed that based on your reaction.

I think to center a game around this one post, made on day 1 is silly. I don't feel that there is much of a case against me but rather a few opportunists. They speak of how I didn't respond well under pressure yet I was frustrated by how they failed to see the joke in it all.

You talk about how you don't think how the entire game is being centered around one post, but it really isn't. If you don't want to be in the spotlight, maybe comment on different things that you've been noticing, hmm?

So people can vote me for not having reads, but James May is immune because he says he had no reads?

No one is immune, but you acting like someone is immune is a bit strange.

What do you think about Fegelein's comments that he hasn't actually scumhunt but is only asking questions?

Mmm, this didn't click for me before. James May, you agree with Fegelein about me being a backseat scumhunter?

Don't like this post from Nacho. Generic's 30 didn't suggest that he was worried about people perceiving him badly. It's just that reads on people during RVS could just be shrugged off as "It's just RVS."

It could be interpreted two ways, yes. I was interested in pressing him on the latter.

Okay, everyone is either complaining about my walls o'text or about other people's "active lurking", so what is like, actually expected from me? -_-

My advice to you would be just to post. I don't necessarily agree with VRK's assertion that you're a particularly egregious waller; everyone has their playstyles, and we just happened to roll a very wall-happy group in this newbie section. You need to be careful that you're not overwhelming people and they aren't just ignoring your walls, and you need to be able to back away from wall-battles so you don't cause huge distractions, but you're perfectly fine for now.

especially at James' comments towards Nacho I wouldn't be surprised if you are onto something.

Explain.

but I will be asking nachomamma to respond to me and explain why his strong aggressive analysis has been lacking so far here.

It's page 8.

[Nachomamma8]

I need to buy a laptop charger and this game is going to take a lot to go through. Give me until tomorrow to catchup before lynching anyone.

[Nachomamma8]

trange how when I point out meta nacho mamma starts to analyse things.

What distinguished my last post from the rest of them?

Screw it, I'm not happy with the hand waving away if the claim at L-2, but I am feeling like its time to trust the gut.

vote nachomamma

It's typical here to claim after you've reached L-1 and someone claims intent to hammer.

I currently think they are as useless as each other and am having trouble deciding which one deserves it more. I'm not even worried if they aren't scum because they are useless townies anyway.

I seriously have no idea how you can justify me being useless this game, but I'd love to see you try.

Hmmm, well neither of them are voting on a bandwagon, Antagon is voting James May alone and Nacho is still voting Gen_wolf. I can't tell if they're busy or just not interested in the game. Not to put on panic mode, but time is getting short now and we'll have to make a decision on who to lynch pretty soon.

As of now, we have three and a half days which is starting to get onto panic mode.

Yes, I'm here.
VOTE: Nacho
It's clearly obvious that James May won't be lynched today.
This is partially because I want to save myself and partially because Nacho also seems scummy to me.

Warning: Nacho is at L-1.

Okay then, giving intent to hammer Nacho, I want to see what he has to say.

Your top suspect hops on me and you decide to claim intent? Why?

I need to pay more attention to the game.

Convenient that you show up as soon as a vote's thrown down on you.

Also, why does everyone on the Nacho wagon only have the case of active lurking. There's more than that.

If there's more than that, talk about it.

TL;DR: I'm sheeping on the guy with most votes because I suddenly think he's scummy althought not previously suspected by me, and because otherwise I'm getting lynched.
And yes, you guessed it, Abel was scum.

Good pick up.

Seems to me the only difference between now and then is that Antagon is at L-1.

Antagon's also posted quite a few times in between Gen_Wolf's two catchup posts. Don't you think that has anything to do with it?

As to flushing out a PR I'm not an expert as to how that would work out but it would clear them from a lynch, right?

Not necessarily.

[Nachomamma8]

Antagon - I originally felt uncomfortable with lynching Antagon because the case on him was essentially "he's lurking, meaning he's either busy or scum" which is lazy and weak reasoning. But his recent hop on my wagon sent up a major red flag, and there are plenty of things that I don't like in his ISO:

Because lists like this should be posted with at least

some

reasoning behind it.
I ignored the read on Feel It and myself because everyone starts out being read as null. As the game goes on, it becomes easier to get reads on players.

That's not what I asked. I asked why you felt you needed to clarify post #29 by Miss Stranger but you didn't feel the need to clarify post #17 by Fegelein. Here is the post bolded for convenience:

She's fine at L-2.

Antagon is probably Town

.

Considering the above was a read on yourself I find it hard to accept you missed it.

This is a valid point.

Point conceded. However, I already knew

what

post Fegelein extracted a townread from. At that moment, I had only two posts: an RVS one and one explaining why wagons are the best way to get out of RVS.
In hindsight, it was a bad idea not to ask why Fegelein would post such an early townread.

It's strange that Antagon ignored why Fegelein got an early townread on him but called out early townreads on others, then later goes to deny it and is like "Oh. I guess I should have questioned Fegelein on that suspicious townread" but doesn't actually decide to question him.

Doing some ISOs now.
Fegelein:

Antagon has a strange fixation with Fegelein, as shown by him doing ISOs on him first, finding him scum, and not putting a vote down. I don't like that he doesn't really make an attempt to interrogate his scumread, but more than that, I don't like how he keeps his RVS vote on James May after this ISO, as if he knew he was going to find him scum later anyways so moving his vote wasn't going to be necessary.

Antagon, am I leaning scum just because of IIoA.

Only partially and partially because I'm not done reading ISOs yet. As I read more, you'll have a more solid place on my reads list.

This doesn't make sense considering Fegelein was the first ISO he did.

Not happy with antagons antics there. Depending on the nachomamma response I'm tempted to switch over.

That was opportunistic.

What would you have preferred he do though? Whether he is town or not he is going to try and survive. At least he didn't lie about his reasoning.

I'm keeping my vote where it is though.

Would you have preferred it if I had kept my vote on James May then?

I don't like this question; Antagon acts like he had no choice in switching his vote, yet he didn't really try to push James May except for his initial case, and he didn't try to move onto a different suspect that clearly wasn't me.

Overall, Antagon is scummy as fuck and makes for a wonderful lynch. I think it's about getting to be claim time on that one.

[Nachomamma8]

I would move champino up and push feel it way down, but otherwise have similar feelings to you there with that t/s list.

Nacho, what's you opinion of feel its posts around the L-1 votes on you and antagon?

I liked the initial questioning; just because he has two suspects doesn't mean that he should shut down and not consider anyone else. Beginning to discredit you with the "you seem to make your votes based on emotion" bit pinged for me, though.

[Nachomamma8]

Would you prefer that I didn't even bother to try and self-voted? I'm not going to take a defeatist attitude just because I have a wagon on me. I will never fully accept my lynch and would vote Nacho even if I didn't think he was scum.

Again, false dichotomy. There are three days left, and you haven't done your promised ISOs on most of the game. James May is being replaced, so that probably explains why people weren't interested in lynching him. You could also talk about other suspects and try to reiterate why you feel James May is scum, you could try to compromise with a Fegelein vote... it's not a matter of you or me; you're only treating it that way so you have an excuse to hop on my wagon.

[Nachomamma8]

So, the fact that I'm voting a null read instead of a scum one makes me scum? Good to know.

You completely ignored what I said in that quote. Try again.

[Nachomamma8]

I thoroughly enjoyed this post because it clearly articulated what I was thinking when I read the exchange between Feel It and Fegelein and was laced with the amount of sarcasm it deserved. And it lead into some interesting responses from Feel It:

This is interesting because it takes a completely different path from what most people's interpretations of Gen Wolf were at the time, which is something that I normally like a lot. However, I notice that champino completely avoided actually defending Gen (or commenting on the positions people were taking on him) and instead ended up subtly defending and chainsawing Gen a bit, which I don't like because it's a roundabout way of defending a townread and normally town prefers doing things like this out in the open.

I also haven't really liked how he hasn't really been taking any strong positions this game at all. Look at his reads post:

Champinoman

- For the most part he (used to) look fine. I don't like his obsession with slips. I await an explanation why they are so important to him. I also don't like his "you're scummy for attacking him/me" attitude. In general I get the impression he finds everybody scummy, which isn't quite useful, so I request a T/S list.

I do find everybody scummy and I think it would be unwise to think otherwise.

Here is what I am currently thinking even though this day is still very young:

Antagon

and

Nachomamma8

are supposed to be our SE and IC however between them they have posted the least in terms of scum hunting. Both seem content in sitting back and not actively contributing. Considering this game is 3 days old I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt at the moment that they have been busy. However if this continues then it moves from unlucky timing to deliberate avoidance.

Fegelein

is more active than the 2 above but only just. I want to hear more from him because I like what I have seen so far. however, he has posted so little it's impossible to justify a read either way.

Gen_Wolf

hasn't really posted too much other than defending himself over 'the incident' on page 1. As I mentioned in my previous post, I wasn't overly impressed by his claim it was a deliberate reaction test, however this isn't enough for me to be convinced that he is scum.

Generic

is the one person I consider to be leaning town at the moment. I have been happy with the way he has answered anything put at him and also in the way that he has queried others.

Feel It

came out of the blocks hard and fast and was riding the Gen_Wolf bandwagon hard. However, since momentum on that seems to have slowed a little he has vanished. I'm finding it hard to get a read on him with so little to go on.

James May

is another that is hard to get a read on due to complete lack of activity. His recent post was the first time that he has shared an opinion on someone and I liked what I read. However, it is very minimal. If you are used to playing faster paced games then surely this slow style of play is not your norm? And your fast reactions to different people mentioning your name in the last few hours seems to heavily suggest lurking. Dive in and scum hunt!

Miss Stranger

... hmmmm... what to think? I have changed my mind so many times in these last 3 days trying to decide if you are scummy, overeager or even just new to this. Currently I would have to say that I think you are leaning scum. The big thing annoying me right now is that you have lined up a bunch of 'if this happens then' scenarios. These will be very interesting to look back at in day 2. I can't help but feel that you are trying to create scenarios that set people up (myself included) so that you are not an obvious lynch candidate.

Everyone in his list with the exception of Generic is null or sort of scummy. Every. Single. Person. Now, I understand a certain degree of paranoia because it's natural, but only being able to nail down a single town read doesn't feel genuine at all.

I currently think they are as useless as each other and am having trouble deciding which one deserves it more. I'm not even worried if they aren't scum because they are useless townies anyway. So much for having IC and SE players to teach us all how to play and guide us.

You said something like this while ignoring someone like Fegelein? Really?

Seems to me the only difference between now and then is that Antagon is at L-1.

This is a STRONG misrep, considering you somehow missed all those posts Antagon made in the middle. So yeah, it makes sense if his reads shift a bit.

[Nachomamma8]

It's nothing huge of course, just somewhat suspicious behavior, you may well be telling the truth, but you slipped up first so you get prodded first. You don't seem that new to me. Have you played on other sites?

I liked this post in particular because Feel It as scum had the chance to use his aggression to make Miss Stranger bury herself in a hole, but that's not the way he ended up playing it. It felt like an attempt to get a stronger read on her.

Yeah, I changed my vote later because I didn't realize at the time he is an SE. I find it interesting that you described myself as opportunistic when I've put pressure and ask questions of suspicious behavior, I'm hardly trying to force a lynch already like Gen_Wolf suggested.

This was... a little strange. He had no problems voting quickly before, so him randomly hesitating on Gen when he didn't hesitate on Miss Stranger even though he brings up the possibility that it could have just been a newb mistake doesn't quite add up.

be back later

[Nachomamma8]

Are you serious? I'm one the more involved posters so far, and retorting my scum claim with an accusation against me only makes you look even worse, look how quickly and desperate you latched on to champinoman backing you up before you accuse me of buddying.

I liked the aggressive response to this; he felt offended that someone accused him of not scumhunting, which makes it feel like he's emotionally invested in the game, which is a good sign. The OMGUS isn't good, but I don't think it's scum motivated.

If the guy is town I'm sorry but he's acted very scummy so far in.

Yeah, if Gen got lynched and he flipped town I would very likely be lynched d2, but even then it doesn't really make sense. If I was a maf, why would i draw attention to myself and push a lynch on a guy who was passing under the radar, who I knew was innocent, and when he got lynched and flipped town everyone would be after my blood? It's illogical and bad mafia play,

I don't like how he preemptively defends himself against a Gen_Wolf townflip at all because it's insanely premature and he really shouldn't worry about being lynched after pushing hard on a scumread.

Gen_Wolf won't be here for a while and we've applied pressure to him and got reactions, we'd be better looking at other players, particularly the lurkers trying to slide by unnoticed.

But this conflicts pretty solidly with the whole "Feel It afraid of Gen flipping town" business, which makes me feel a lot better. His style is putting people to the fire and then moving on when they look town, and he's been consistent with that style so far despite a couple of awkward looking posts. What I DON'T understand is why his vote remained on Gen_Wolf in this post. There were several lurkers at this point, but he only voted Antagon after MS and James May did.

How is that scummy? You just sound butthurt that I started a bw on you at the beginning of the game.

This is an extremely weak response to MS's reads.

Aw, the post where Generic voted Antagon is also gone.

Eager to get rid of him?

...and this is a cheap potshot if it's serious.

See Gen_Wolf this is why I think you're scummy you make odd posts and accusations. I've done at least as much scumhunting as you and probably a lot more?

And here it seems like he has stronger convictions in Gen Wolf being scum, and still he votes Antagon and I don't really see why.

Like I said I'd prefer Antagon but Nacho hasn't been very town either.

But what happened to Wolf?

[Nachomamma8]

Fegelein is a bit of a difficult read for me unless he's under pressure. I haven't played with him when he's been scum, but his general town play is lurky unless he comes under pressure, which is exactly what we're seeing here. Would love if he made a concerted effort to contribute without me attacking him, though because right now he's just being lazy as fuck.

Gen Wolf:

Thank you, finally someone appreciating my post. I have to agree, from the reactions it got I would have to place Feel It as my top scum candidate. This based on his extreme focus on this one post which clearly has been shown as a joke and secondly from his pure lack of involvment in other areas of the game. Almost as if he is avoiding the game because he has something to hide.

I actually like this post from Gen, mainly because he had gotten a lot of shit for that specific post and he was defending himself by saying that it was a way to get out of RVS; the reaction being an immediate "thank you" seems more genuine than buddying, if only for the fact that scum wouldn't alienate their only defender from the crowd so quickly while it's more of a knee-jerk, not really thinking response from town.

When I do flip town however, I highly doubt Feel It would be scum. I don't think he would be stupid enough to stick his neck out that far so early on.

Although I don't like the overall air of "when I die, do this" considering it felt like it was way too early, I did like that his "when I die" testament was a town declaration on someone who was mostly town when Wolf flipped anyways. I don't think a partner would want to bring suspicion to his partner when the bus was just finishing up.

She is very active but also seems like she is making herself busy. However a long with this she does make valid points at times but is also very quick to concede certain points. I get the impression she is new, and thus very timid making it easy to intimidate your opinion onto Miss Stranger. I might be completely wrong though but from her current play I cannot see her being scum. I do not, however, like this if Gen flips town then let vote Feel it business. It is a very easy way for scummy players to justify to lynches in succession and thus through a spanner in her town works just a bit. Ninja'd here. Post 22 however doesn't mention my post directly but rahter questions your mistake. Thus it took 3 posts for you to directly confront my post. I am not lying or putting words in your mouth, I am simply asking a question. However, your post reinforced my townish read on you, but again I don't like that fact that you bring up PR's? I never once insinuated I was a PR and I won't be as it is a detriment to town. If I am a PR I will claim when necessary, if I am not, then I will not. (Thank you for the luck) (I know it isnt personal, its just a game )

I actually really like this post. It's a bit stream of consciousness-y, but it outlines pretty clearly what Gen Wolf likes about Miss Stranger, what he dislikes... and considering MS was mostly a universal townread at this point, the effort that Gen put in here was completely unnecessary for doing anything except for settling his own personal problems with her.

My grievances with this are, firstly, you are already playing Day 2. You are so sure that I am going to flip scum that when I don't you are going to be taking two steps back and thus not only would you have wasted day 1 but you will be spending day 2 starting a fresh. I am not saying that voting me is wrong, if you feel I am the most scummiest of players then please lay your vote down on me. However, what I do ask is stop making assumptions based on me being scum because I can promise you it is wrong and it will be a detriment to town inevitably. Thus, all I ask is play the game now for Day 1. If I do get voted off, then start making your decisions based on solid facts because you will know my alignment and thus there will be no need to speculate.

And combined with this, it shows that Gen is seeing mostly town in front of him but is paranoid of the pings that he gets now and then; it makes sense because I'm guessing he was thinking about it after he posted this, Miss Stranger does that thing that bothers him, and then here comes this post.

[Nachomamma8]

I like Generic a lot this game, ever since his big post in the early stages of the game. I liked his #61 because it was literally page 3 and Generic squeezed every bit of information he could possibly manage to find out of the thread, and that would be a very impressive thing to undertake by very confident scum.

Forgive me if there are more questions I need to answer, I am being bombarded with questions... Anyone else playing this or is it just me? :p

I've always had the theory that townies are more likely to feel alone; it's a cold and lonely world when you're trying to sort everything out by yourself, and Gen is feeling it here.

Gen wolf, after Friday I would like a T/S list please. That's a run through of everyone in the game and what you think of them and their alignment if its not a known concept here.

And good luck with the exams.

unvote

until I get what I asked for, in case any fast wagon ing might try and take place.

I liked this back off as well. At the game state when this unvote came, it was easy for him to keep pushing and overwhelm Gen, but instead he went with the typical MTGS "T/S list", which felt like giving him an extra chance to sort things out which I liked quite a bit.

It's always annoying when almost the entire game reads you as town and you ARE town :p my chances if survival tonight just took a major dip.
At least when you are under suspicion you might be kept alive for the potential mislynch, this is why I don't like a lot if positive feedback.
If I spot a scum player today though at least that works in my favour.

This read pretty genuine since it's paranoia at getting townreads. I don't think scumGen would be trying to remind us that it will be suspicious if he lives long (if he's that ballsy, major props), but it seems strange to self-sabotage yourself when you're having a great game.

But although im new to this I have weirdly seen a bit of meta about someone who turned up on another site im playing mafia in. I don't think its fair to vote for them based solely on a cross site spot (imagine being found out as mafia based on accidentally meeting up with another player in a different game on a different site... this could be a first!) but I will be asking nachomamma to respond to me and explain why his strong aggressive analysis has been lacking so far here. Yes he came for me, but that was VERY tunnelled on the one person. I think he is capable of more broad strokes and has yet to do that. So meta could be his downfall here.

This was also extremely, extremely town although we can't really say more than ongoings.

[Nachomamma8]

Feg, I'm trying to be a bit more cautious this time because the last game i played I jumped the gun on a lynch that costed me the game >_> (was town that game btw) and I don't have solid reads on anyone but the questions was merely out of curiosity to see their reasoning. Better to survey the area from afar (well for me at least since I am trying to stop jumping the bullet for long phases like this :/ Use to playing 48-96 hour day phases and it requires a bit of on your feet kind of thing...)

I've seen the transition from short days to long days many times, and usually after the first town game there's a bit of an overcompensation to the passive side. That's what this is, and it's natural and pretty cool.

Now, the ones that are Null-Town to Null-Scum (although there aren't any in Null-Scum atm) I need to read up on the ISOs separately to get a full idea on who is what and not jump the bullet. But I feel like the strongest Town read, on my end at least, is Generic as I could fully understand everything what he is saying with each post that he puts. Though Feel It has vanished from the radar (probably from rl-related issues?), Gen Wolf is V/LA & Nacho is sort of in this "backseat scumhunting" zone. I suppose that the meta of each of them would help out immensely in my reads and probably need to scope in on past games to get the general idea of their town/scum metas. As for Champin & Antag, it's also a matter of meta that needs to be fleshed out so that I can also understand their gameplay. I know that I'm mentioning meta a few times but I personally feel that on this phase using a player's meta from previous game to get a general idea of their typical town/scum meta would help a lot in here, especially for the SE/IC that are here.

There's a player I end up hydraing a lot who ends up making promises like this that are way too much for him to do and he never ends up following through on them. The intent behind it seems townish, and the later vote on Antagon makes a lot of sense, considering his reads at the time.

Stubbs's entrance is aggressive and pretty nice. He doesn't leave himself much room at all for jumping on my wagon, which that he's pretty much as good as cleared if Antagon flips scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Miss Stranger has struck me as very, very town for this entire game. I've liked her T/S scum lists, I really liked her pick up on Antagon, I've liked her questioning... now it might be because I'm a bit tired after all of that, but I think the Miss Stranger read is one that is shared by pretty much everyone (save Gen Wolf) and so doesn't need much explaining.

[Nachomamma8]

Anyways, after my reread, I've noticed there are more things that I found issue with than I thought I would. I'd like to get a little more discussion before Antagon is hammed, especially from champinoman and Feel It. Right now, I like champino less and am most interested in how he responds to all of this; Feel It is still leaning town for me despite my problems with him.

Vote: champinoman

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: champinoman

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho- My top two scumreads are on Gen_Wolf and Antagon, have been most of the game, especially seeing as Gen_Wolf seems hesitant to vote Antagon. But I'm not certain of you, champ, or Fegelin

What do you think of the recent things I've brought up on champ? Why are you OK with lynching me and letting one of your top two get away?

[Nachomamma8]

He has a similar play style to you actually, which makes your vote on him kinda funny.

What do you mean?

As to being okay to lynching you, well because I'm not actually certain of them being guilty they're just the highest, I could easily be wrong about them and I'm keeping an open mind.

You could easily be wrong about anyone. But that doesn't mean you lynch just everyone, right?

Also... what does it mean to chainsaw someone?

I don't think champ was actively defending Gen_Wolf, but one could say there was a "roundabout" defense. Champ was attacking Gen_Wolf's attackers,

This is exactly what chainsaw defending is: defending someone by attacking their attackers.

He has a similar play style to you actually, which makes your vote on him kinda funny.

What do you mean?

As to being okay to lynching you, well because I'm not actually certain of them being guilty they're just the highest, I could easily be wrong about them and I'm keeping an open mind.

You could easily be wrong about anyone. But that doesn't mean you lynch just everyone, right?

Also... what does it mean to chainsaw someone?

I don't think champ was actively defending Gen_Wolf, but one could say there was a "roundabout" defense. Champ was attacking Gen_Wolf's attackers,

This is exactly what chainsaw defending is: defending someone by attacking their attackers.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: It's just funny you find a guy a scummy who plays the same as you.

I've noticed a similarity in playstyle. Why do you think we play similarly?
Also, you missed a question.

If so, then why hasn't he posted anything about it? If you are going to change your vote then I expect to at least have a little bit of reasoning in there somewhere.

His original problems with Antagon was that he was active lurking, so that suspicion disappearing after Antagon posted a bit more really isn't all that surprising. He's also said that he's been busy lately, so it's not really a surprise that he's not explaining much.

Why would I defend Gen_Wolf? As it stands I am not going to say that he is a townie, and I was even less sure about it back on page 2. I pointed out that I thought other people were reading into something a little too much and that that action on its own was not enough to lynch someone on.

But instead of saying that you thought people were attacking him for stupid reasons, you focused in on the Feel It attack.

It was day 3.

Fair enough. What are your reads now?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm a little unsure about how much of James May's posts to read into when looking at my read on StubbsKVM. Maybe someone would like to share their opinion on that if they have any good tips?

Predecessor posts usually don't figure much into my read on people unless they were strong reads; otherwise, they likely replaced out because I couldn't get a read on them and the responsive person I can actually interact with is who I'm going to focus reading most.

Unfortunately for the rest of us, our suspicions about her actions seemed to have caused her to stop posting as much and I think this might be a disservice to us in the long run.

I can't say I understand the point you're trying to make about her here. Do you think that we should fake suspect her so she posts more or that it's suspicious that she posts less when we're not suspecting her or...?

Gen_Wolf and Fegelein: How are we expected to get decent reads on people when they don't post anything in the last week. There have been 3 meaningful posts between them. I'll have another look at them both tomorrow and look back at their play over the first week. No time to do it right now.

They haven't posted much, yeah, but I think they've posted enough to read by now.

No value whatsoever.

Claiming it means it won't help town in night phase, mafia aim elsewhere. Mafia wouldn't aim at town antagon cos his play has been anti town and no threat to them. And now he is absent...

Not good enough,

vote: antagon

I will put this one on me. No way am I accepting that crap as a good defence.

^^^
This makes Generic incredibly, incredibly town. He didn't even give Antagon any time to pull out any counterclaims, which is the entire point of fakeclaiming a power role in the first place.

The guy completely disappeared when Antagon went under pressure.

He wasn't really around for the entire game.

Sounds like you lost your nerve and can't admit it.

He's taking a step back and giving you a chance to talk and explain yourself. Take it.

[Nachomamma8]

Scourge = scum. DLG slip. :<

if you and Generic keep this up for much longer i'll have a whole new mafia vocabulary that is friendly to phones!

[Nachomamma8]

I'm here and I'll catch up tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm here and I'll catch up tomorrow.

I'M HERE AND I WILL CATCH UP TOMORROW
MEANING THAT I WOULD LIKE IF THERE WERE NO HAMMERS UNTIL I CATCH UP BECAUSE I LIKE TAKING MY TIME WHEN CATCHING UP IN NEWBIE GAMES

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah, I've found my other newbie game to be more active and enjoyable.

Let's make this one a bit more interesting, then.

Can we just lynch him and be done with it? Whatever he says, it's going to be an ISO nitpick on Feel It.

This sort of pushing is not that hard to dodge. You have worries about me being scum, right? Then the key is to produce a lot of content instead of produce free days for scum. Which is why I wanted to catch up: the way that the town loses an early lead is by going to the easy lynches immediately after; chkflip unfortunately just gets himself lynched sometimes for god knows what reason, but that doesn't mean that any discussion between us wouldn't have been useful.

i believe that is L-1

This was an obvious vote and all but it kind of came out of nowhere.

Hell I know I might be way too certain about him, and I know I lost my first game by being so, but right now I don't care too much, we can afford 2 mistakes and still win.

You lost your first game over tunneling but you're not going to be cautious of tunneling in the next game? Come on :/

Nachomamma8's meta suggests that if he continues to coast like you've been letting him do, he's more than likely scum.
This does include him having "life related" excuses like "no time today," "long day at work," et cetera. He and I go way back.

yeah, we do.
and i still don't understand why you do this.

[Nachomamma8]

Feel It's reaction to the wagon against him was similarly suicidal and it felt town as it happened. The overconfidence chkflip/Fegelein being scum felt genuine, and the whole "there are enough townies to finish you" would be too much playacting for scum who is just about to get their first townie kill. I don't like Gen Wolf's silent hop onto the wagon at all, though. Checking to see if he did anything else today.

[Nachomamma8]

just to confirm chkflip replaced feg hey? We have a lynch or two to mess around with so I am happy with a Feg (now chck?) or feel it? The self vote does give town vibes but could just be a double bluff

did you decide it wasn't a double bluff, then?

[Nachomamma8]

Revive: chkflip
Vote: chkflip

Because town play THAT bad deserves 2 lynches.

This is all you have to say?

Scum are obvz no lynching at night so lets no lynch during the day until they make a NK so we can get some info?

Lynches are generally pretty good information.

[Nachomamma8]

You ouens are throbbing this game now. You have 12 days to make a decision. That is 12 days of discussion that would have to occur and that is another 12 days of information that will be forfeited by lynching me. If in 12 days time after multiple discussions you still feel the need to lynch me then please do but please just utilize a few more days for information purposes.

You weren't that concerned about waiting yesterday while chkflip was getting lynched. Why?

[Nachomamma8]

If I had it my way I would probably look at Nachomamma and Champs. There contributions don't seem very town orientated but that is my opinion and I hope you at least consider them.

I'm interested in champ as well. But I think we'd have much more useful discussion if there were actual reasons going into your suspicions and something more than "I think experienced players are more likely to no kill".

[Nachomamma8]

vote gen wolf

And that's L-1

Nothing interesting on the reread?

[Nachomamma8]

Well, that went quick. He is the most likely looking to be scum but.. I'm a bit weary seeing as i was wrong about chkflip he seemed so scummy to me.

Anyway, giving intent to hammer, gen_wolf please claim if it's relevant and give your views on players, in particular who you think is scum.

Slow down.

[Nachomamma8]

And if you're being cautious, then why are you already ready for the hammer?

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA until the 18th. Hopefully will be able to sneak in a post here and there, probably not.

[Nachomamma8]

We may be facing a mass claim requirement on day 4 if we aren't right today. In fact I would want one today, because I think it would narrow things down further for reasons I will hold back right now.

It completely depends on the setup. Cop should claim but JK/Tracker claiming in a situation where there are possible/probable no kills is a little more dicey. I personally think that we have a very large margin of error (scum has to get three full mislynches and have kills go through) so massclaiming isn't really needed at all; PRs should be claiming when they have relevant information, but until then, it's useless.

Nacho: Other than saying you are interested in me you haven't shared your opinion on who you think is most likely to be scum since day 1. Care to share your thoughts?

Actually right now I'm thinking we're looking at something more like Feel It ---> you with an outside chance of Gen_Wolf/Generic, even.

I'm neutral towards it, if the majority wants it I'll claim.

Didn't you already claim?

Anta would not have been dumb enough to call his scum buddy the only town read he had. He was obvz trying to buddy me. If you guysstill feel I am scum vote me but when I flip town and I promise I will please lynch stubbs

I wish that I knew why he suddenly was so adamant in Stubbs being town, but the timing was horrible considering he was just posturing to vote me. OMGUSing so blatant about it and being transparent as hell about it seemed like a fairly strong towntell though, simply because that sort of dancing isn't the type scum want to do when they are the last left, not to mention Stubbs is an odd choice for Gen to pull out a 1v1 against considering Stubbs is considered as far more town than Gen.

His actions have been the same in both days so far. He lurks and provides very minimal content at first. And then he does 1 big analysis towards the end of the day to show us how keen he is to scum hunt. This is why I was asking for his opinion early in this day. If he is town then I think it is worthwhile getting his opinion out in the open so that we can be more informed. He is the most experienced after all so his lack of involvement is just hurting us.

I end up doing one big analysis towards the end of the day because everything is said and done at the end of the day and I have time on my hands.

Is replacing out a scumtell in this case?

Replacing out normally isn't a scumtell.

Vote: Feel It

I've felt more uncomfortable about FI coasting after yesterday than I have about Gen's weirdness.

[Nachomamma8]

which gen?

The wolf one.

[Nachomamma8]

Feel It, you have a question waiting for you. Currently stuck on phone so i won't be able to do what i want, but will return later.

[Nachomamma8]

SCUM

champinoman
Mr. Flay
Feel It
Generic
Stubbs
Miss Stranger

TOWN

I'm fine with massclaim with the caveat that the tracker should claim VT unless the tracker sees some information that doesn't mesh with results OR Doctor claims first. One of the combinations we need to watch out for is Tracker/One-Shot Bulletproof which would be really bad to massclaim, and this means that we'll be pretty set even if we have this setup.

[Nachomamma8]

And it appears this game is the lowest on Nacho's list of priorities. He has been VERY over the last 7 hours but hasn't found the time to post in here.

UNVOTE: Mr. Flay

VOTE: Nachomamma

I've had enough.

I'm in a lot of games, hence a lot of catchup. Here the catchup was not bad at all so it was a low priority for me.

[Nachomamma8]

It is a shame you claimed before me.
One-shot bulletproof here.

[Nachomamma8]

mmmmmm, fucking hell.

From my perspective, Mafia has a roleblocker and can kill champinoman whenever the hell they want. If I'm lying and am scum, I cannot do anything as long as champinoman targets me. Meaning that I think the best course of action is to allow me to control two more lynches before getting lynched myself unless I am confirmed as town. If champinoman targets me every night, mafia will not be able to kill him without confirming me as town and I as scum need approximately 5 mislynches to win with champinoman blocking me every night, so that's sure as hell not happening ESPECIALLY if I'm lynched after two. Giving me two lynches to work with instead of just one means that scum will have to forgo their kill twice instead of just one, meaning town gets an additional mislynch to work with in order to make up for my eventual mislynch, meaning scum aiming to mislynch me is pretty much zero gain for them.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not sure yet because that will definitely require a reread. I'm interested in hearing thoughts on that plan, though.

[Nachomamma8]

No opinion without me telling you my preferred lynches beforehand, Feel It?

[Nachomamma8]

I kneejerk voted Feel It when he was asking people if he wanted to claim and I thought he already did; figured I could get him in a shitty looking reaction. When he responded to my question, he responded immediately and went back to about where he was before.

[Nachomamma8]

I am here, getting distracted by chat. Feel It was my first choice, but I definitely want to do a reread first.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll be done before the one day, 10 hours mark.

[Nachomamma8]

I think Miss Stranger is leaning town. No I'm not trying to get you to lynch Gen_Wolf he just gets my vote because he seems the most suspicious (which at this point isn't much)

Antagon is active lurking, asking about people questions without contributing much himself.

Feel It was the first person to call Antagon out for active lurking, but really didn't act on it.

Of those who have posted so far, heres my opening feelings...

I loved this post because it was ridiculously comprehensive and so incredibly early in the game. In retrospect, I'm not as happy with this post because I allowed you too much towncred for it. I've recently learned that you're a hell of a scum player and as a result, will probably be going a little harder on you than I have on other newbies this game. You are my biggest worry as far as "people who can snow me" goes.

Miss Stranger, it's not opportunism, if I was an opportunist I would have just kept my vote on you and pushed you harder, you already had three votes, instead I turned my focus on a player with no votes or attention who made a comment that stood out like a sore thumb. His reactions were even worse, he got all jumpy and defensive and claimed it was a reaction test and the people who fell for it were scum? That I'm not contributing? His accusations are weak and reeks of desperation and nervousness. If the guy is town I'm sorry but he's acted very scummy so far in.

The whole "if I was actually being opportunist, I would've..." is not really a defense that I like because it essentially points to "I could be worse than I am, meaning I'm not scum". The whole "if this guy is town I'm sorry..." bit is also a bit premature; it's like he's afraid of Miss Stranger reading Gen as town and so is starting to posture for the position that Gen is just SO scummy that his push is justified even if Gen is town. Which isn't exactly consistent with his later sentiment of Gen being the scummiest even though that's not necessarily that scummy.

Gen_Wolf won't be here for a while and we've applied pressure to him and got reactions, we'd be better looking at other players, particularly the lurkers trying to slide by unnoticed.

James May- Getting some very scummy vibes, he's made two posts, one saying he doesn't want to get involved yet and another before that claiming he had a big post analyzing us? He also made a few backseat questions and backed up Gen_Wolf's comment. Probably my main fos after Gen_Wolf

Antagon- Similar to the above, he started the first RVS bandwagon, then went quiet and has just made the odd comment, not giving much help.

He's recommending that we move to look at other players, start to pressure lurkers... then decides that lurker we should pressure is James May instead of Antagon, who was his previous second suspicion. Antagon still gets the shout out though.

I'm waiting for the guy to drop off my notes so might as well use the time wisely. I am in the process of going through everyones ISO.

These reads showed most focus on Miss Stranger the strongest townread which was sort of a gotcha at this point and Feel It, who had pushed on him before and it was mostly an OMGUS read that didn't even translate into a strong scumread. I don't like these focuses; it was too easy to talk about how miss stranger was town at that point, and focusing on Feel It over say Fegelein showed survivalistic attitude.

Champino has so far chose to dissect my posts to death, down to my comments on time and story time about my motives...

Accusing someone of dissecting posts to death is a strange accusation considering your first analysis post.

his is starting to bug me and I will finally say something. Miss Stranger, a lot of what you are saying is based on if's, and a lot of these 'if's' revolve around me. Firstly, IF Gen_Wolf is scum then Feel It is town and vice versa. Secondly, 'If' Gen is scum then Champ is next inline.

I liked this though.

I haven't said much for a while so some general thoughts;

Mostly attacking lurkers and ignoring active players. Still no real push on Antagon, even though most of his play hints heavily towards it.

So, reads.
TOWN:
Gen_Wolf

NULL/LEANING TOWN:

NULL:
Everyone else.

NULL/LEANING SCUM:
Fegelein
James May

SCUM:

I would bet several shiny pennies that Antagon's partner is not in this reads list.

quote="In post 180, Generic"]But although im new to this I have weirdly seen a bit of meta about someone who turned up on another site im playing mafia in. I don't think its fair to vote for them based solely on a cross site spot (imagine being found out as mafia based on accidentally meeting up with another player in a different game on a different site... this could be a first!) but I will be asking nachomamma to respond to me and explain why his strong aggressive analysis has been lacking so far here. Yes he came for me, but that was VERY tunnelled on the one person. I think he is capable of more broad strokes and has yet to do that. So meta could be his downfall here.[/quote]
I very much appreciated this post.

Okay then, giving intent to hammer Nacho, I want to see what he has to say.

And this still bothers me quite a bit, considering Feel It didn't really have shit to say about me for the entire day.

In fact I'm so annoyed by that play,

unvote, vote antagon

antagon is now at L-1

although I don't really understand why Generic voted Antagon here if Feel It was the opportunistic one.

Are you seriously retarded? I've explained this a thousand times. Get over your tunneling you're just hurting the town now with your narrow mindedness. Push my lynch if you want but you're gonna look very, very stupid when I flip town.

This was an extremely poignant response to suspicion, which at first seems pretty town but now seems much more strange, especially considering his response when chkflip flipped town could have added up to exactly "absolutely zero response".

Scum are obvz no lynching at night so lets no lynch during the day until they make a NK so we can get some info?

This is extremely strange consider Gen Wolf's vanilla-townieness.

In my mind from what I have seen over three days nacho and stranger are town. Chalk them off and we are left with

why did you think I was town?

He's still posting in another game, so, kinda yeah.

I hate hate hate how all of Feel It's posts at this point are just dipping in the pool and coasting coasting coasting. I think if he was scum at this point he essentially would've given up, and his posting here reflects that.

My predecessor definitely had some dumb things to say (including not wanting to lynch Antagon),

Flay, are you familiar with the Amished Tell?

I didn't put me last as I hate having universal trust because I want to still prove I have nothing to hide.

I really don't understand this.

Champ and nacho are off limits. Bear in mind nacho is unCCed unless miss stranger points out she is BP.

scumslip...?

Yeah, that's what he SAID, but it gives him 2 more days, 2 more days to potentially steer the town in other directions and fight among itself if. It's harmful to the town because he could be scum, and he knows that champinoman has him by the balls so he's trying to appeal to the town to get kills in other ways. Don't you think it's a big scumtell that champinoman has blocked him twice and we've had zero nightkills so far?

I'm fine with going along with it as long as long as the town makes sure to lynch him on the third day if scum hasn't been found.

This was a ton of scum-panic. He pretty much completely dismissed the plan because he thinks there's a chance of me causing a bunch of infighting and convincing town to not listen to the part of my plan where I get lynched...?

[Nachomamma8]

So general thoughts are that Feel It is probably the last scum. He doesn't look good as far as associative tells go, and I haven't really been impressed with any play except for his Day 1 play which in and of itself was filled with a lot of lurker hunting (but not hunting Antagon!), the strange response to Miss Stranger's first accusation that Flay pointed out, the random intent on me, etc. I feel pretty good about my reservations on Generic right now considering it would've taken him some absolutely amazing scum play to pull off and I think I'm being a bit paranoid from reading a few of his off-site games, but if Feel It happens to flip town, my main priority tomorrow will be making sure that he is town beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Vote: Feel It

[Nachomamma8]

My guess is that nobody will die either night. Because I find a two-time roleblocked mafia goon much more likely than roleblocker unsuccessfully blocking and failing to kill Nacho twice. If anyone else had claimed bulletproof, it'd be different. It's just too much, way too much of a coincidence.

I'm sorry I don't believe coincidences.

Then it will become painfully clear after exactly two days. Is there any reason you aren't lynching Feel It?

[Nachomamma8]

Goddamnit Nacho, stop signing up for more games when you can't find time for the ones you're in!

Flay.
I can always find time for you.

[Nachomamma8]

If all goes well today, my laptop will be fixed and I will be posting up a storm tonight. A massive, terrifying storm. I will say that I'm leaning towards a Generic lynch at the moment, but will have a big analysis post later today regardless of whether it will be posted from my laptop or my girlfriend's laptop.

[Nachomamma8]

Actually.

6 left. Lynch wrong today we go into night with 5...

If there is no night kill again we are auto killing nacho regardless of any wifom he tries, bringing us to 4 if he isn't scum. Champ then has a chance to choose right in the night, if unsuccessful we are at 3... Hmmm.

I will listen to nachos analysis, but if its not convincing I'm suggesting him today.

Tomorrow will either be 4 alive with me as confirmed town or 5 alive with both champino and I still alive. Lynch me today, and you will end up in 4 alive with no confirmed town which is the worst possible scenario if I'm not scum.

To be honest, I think Flay is looking better after this night.

I'm definitely agreeing with this.

And I also wouldn't have aimed at nacho twice, because whoever did that if nacho ain't scum is stupid.

Somehow I'm not incredibly eager just to take your word for it.

Why is it that everyone who WAS here was extending a whole plateful of Townie Brownies to Generic until very recently?

I liked his Day 1 play quite a bit. His play after that, especially in later Days that actually slowed down a bit, have not been so unbelievably town.

All I know is of I work on champs theory flay or Stubbs is last scum.

When you get the chance, could you refresh me on why you think Stubbs is the last scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you turning this back on me nacho? Aren't you meant to be making the case to have me as your second lynch choice?

Stubbs I have felt untrusting of on and off throughout the game, if you want me to restate why it will have to wait until after Saturday.

I haven't forgotten about you at all. I'm not exactly interested in having a fast day today since it'd be sort of horrible if I fucked it up today, so we're going to take our time with this one.

[Nachomamma8]

While I agree with not rushing, you're in the driver's seat here, and we've wasted four days waiting for your case...

I promised you a big analysis post, and you'll get a big analysis post. I want more information before I do that.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm getting bored of this game at present, so if you are going to bullshit for a mislynch on me let me know now do I can not waste time checking back. It's depressingly tedious to be told I'm now suddenly scummy.

Goodnight and goodluck

If I'm doing it right, I will be telling a lot of people they are scummy before the day's end. But why does it affect you so much that I'm suspicious of you?

[Nachomamma8]

Because we're essentially playing Surprise Kingmaker now? You (and to some degree, champino) are the only ones who get to decide the lynch today. Where is our incentive to participate except defensively if/when you call us out?

I don't plan to decide the lynch on my own. You're the ones who are going to end up in 3P LyLo with whoever I don't lynch here today, so if I lynch my suspect just for being my suspect with no input from anyone else, then that's pretty shitty. Incentive is finding and lynching scum, just as it's always been. The main difference is I know I'm not gonna live forever and so my vote carries a little more weight.

[Nachomamma8]

only way champino dies while i'm scum and he's targetting me is A) if i'm a roleblocker, or B) if he fails to target me.

[Nachomamma8]

Generic still doesn't strike me as a good scum candidate. He could have stayed off the Antagonwagon D1, among many other things mentioned already.

I'm pretty tired of associative tells at present, actually. What are the other things mentioned already that you like the most?

1 - as BP, were any of your early posts designed to draw a NK? if so, which ones?

No. I draw NKs easily enough already.

2 - I think your current read on generic is that he could be scum, is that accurate?

Yes.

3 - Under what conditions is it appropriate for a massclaim?

What do you mean?

You have my vote down now, I will check in periodically but not much more to say from me...

Why do you think it's Stubbs?

I agreed under the stupid assumption nacho might give this game some of his time after requesting it.

I haven't put time into this game? I do occasionally disappear but I don't think it's fair to say that I haven't put time in this game.

I have not read a scummier statement all week.

It's exactly the mindset I expected from him. Why is it scummy to you?

[Nachomamma8]

Since I've started pushing you, you've shut down completely and have started taking potshots at me. Why?

[Nachomamma8]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_RWtdm81WU

enjoy this music while I catch up!

[Nachomamma8]

In general/meta, or in this game specifically?

This game specifically.

It's pure buddying. "I believe in you Nacho! You can do it Nacho! As long as you're not going to lynch me..." And he does it again in 692.

He is buddying, but I think that I've made it pretty clear that Stubbs isn't even in my top 3 and thus probably won't be lynching him, so it's not really necessary for him to pull something like that at this point; it's only necessary for him to keep doing what he's doing. I also haven't really had any troubles in reading him (yet), so that type of trust in me based on our past is pretty consistent.

I think if scumnacho thought he would be given the lynch without question he would remove me, because you are scummier looking and he can try and talk his way out of the lynch the next day.

Flay, this is Generic pulling the exact same "lynching me is a scumtell" that you accused Stubbs of earlier, whereas I think this one is a bit more clearcut.

If generic is scum, why would he have hammered antagon so quick at the end of day 1?

It was town because it didn't allow for counterclaims. It wasn't town enough where Generic is cleared.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Generic

Sorry for taking so long in this; I don't really feel confident in this vote at all but as far as finding scum elsewhere, I don't see anything but this. Flay has a very small outside chance of being scum if this doesn't yield fruit but I don't really see scum anywhere else.

[Nachomamma8]

Stubbs is my secondary, but remember if its flay or karnage and they win you have nacho to thank for our loss. Not even for choosing me for you all to lynch, but for ignoring the game after requesting the two lynches.
No thought has gone into this choice, so unless he is scum I place any potential loss on his shoulders.

i agree that the loss would fall on my shoulders
but if i actually did manage to catch you out then i'm riding home from this win on a parade wagon and i'm taking pictures.

[Nachomamma8]

Will not vote Generic except to avoid a NL. Karnage can have the hammer.

(this is not scummy, because if I'm wrong, we win)

?

[Nachomamma8]

So, reads.
TOWN:
Gen_Wolf

In the end, I don't think this is a likely-Antagon scum move. My personal rules for listing are that newscum are most likely to have at least one buddy in null/null leaning listing, bus heavy scum are most likely to have at least one buddy in scum listing, protective scum are most likely to have at least one buddy in town listing. Idea behind newscum is that they don't want to leave obvious connections to their partners so they don't want to single them out with such an obvious connection, which is pretty much exactly what Antagon did to Gen Wolf here. Don't think he would fuck over his partner as he was going down this way since he showed at least a little respect for his partner by attempting to root out a PR before he went down.

Thank you, finally someone appreciating my post.

In the midst of a bunch of people attacking you, it seems unnatural for scum to immediately begin buddying someone who finally takes their side a bit. As scum, it means that you did something right in that person's eyes and you don't really want to do anything to fuck it up, so it ended up coming across as more of a "thank you for showing that my side has validity" more than anything else.

You oaks are so far off who scum actually are they just not killing because your doing the work for them.

This comes from such an extremely paranoid place that I seriously doubt it could be coming from scum.

Honestly, I obviously want town to win. However, if it came to it and after some discussion people are unsure I would rather have them lynch me than potentially expose a PR or what not. I'll take a bullet for the team in that regard but I just encourage everyone to use the time we have.

This is also really, really town and not the type of post that I think scum-Gen is capable of faking.

On a more general note for Flay's play, play between here and what we're seeing now seems very different.

I would still like for someone to explain how I'm being 'inconsistent'. I'm seeing a lot of bare claims designed to delegitimize me, but nothing actually provable.

I'm on my phone right now so no big post, but I am at L-1 is that right? Somebody better have a GOOD case...

My predecessor definitely had some dumb things to say (including not wanting to lynch Antagon), so if I still look like a good lynch by the end of the Day, so be it.

From my limited understanding of Flay as scum, he takes an aggressive stance towards people who suspect him, which is something he started out with upon replacing in (suggesting playstyle), but then dropped it immediately after reading the game. I don't think that scumFlay is the type of player to posture for the "oh just kill me if my predecessor was too scummy"; he wouldn't bring that up in the first place, would try to get his foot in the door with the analysis posts he made and defend Gen as scummy but still town.

His suspicions as scum are also not really fleshed out so well; he tends to control rhetoric as opposed to actually try to sort people out. He's hoppy, he's opportunistic, he's pretty much a classic scum player in that respect. But certain things lately have seen extremely genuine, in a way that scumFlay can't (or didn't) replicate in that previous game; he didn't focus on lurkers for lurking, he focused on making people who should be centers of attention, and the latest "I will not hammer Generic" would require himscum refusing to hammer a townie when as scum he has pretty much every reason to.

Overall, I might be giving Gen Wolf too much credit and underestimating Flay-scum, but the slot seems town town town to me and I have serious difficulty imagining them flipping scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Stubbgame 1
Stubbgame 2

Played a couple games with Stubbtown before, haven't seen him as scum. He was fairly easy for me to read as town both times, hence his trust in me having the ability to read him. Generally when you read someone fairly easily a couple of times and have proven yourself a competent scumhunter elsewhere, the interaction between the two of you gets extremely hard to fake when the readable one gets scum. If you read the second Stubbgame, you see me retreating from penguin after she brings out the "Nacho has 100% read me before. Weird." posting, and if you take a gander through Open 507, you'll notice that Laz starts to suspect me immediately after I call him scum. I've seen this towntell a lot and it only works for newer players or players I know so well that scumreading them when they are town is actually a scumtell, but it's been damn reliable until and I have no reason to believe that it's not going to be damn reliable again. I also have some other reasons for finding Stubb town if interested, but I'm pretty confident in this townread and it *shouldn't* matter if incorrect, but if it does, then Stubbs is town and please please please don't fucking lynch him.

[Nachomamma8]

So you spent your whole time proving why flat is town... Still no case against me though.

Can you at least oblige me with a scum case so my lynch is t a total piss take where you are abusing the second lynch you were allowed. Show something to indicate why me as your last choice before you now die as a consequence.

i'm explaining how i caught you as we speak.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll start with the end because I would love to point out some of the bullshit tactics you've been using since you've been getting closer to death.

Stubbs keen to open up the options for scum?

Interesting. Also you weren't wanting the mass claim, the thing that put us in this unique dichotomy we find ourselves in right now.

The second Stubbs mentions Generic-scum as a possibility, Generic begins tunneling on Stubbs.

Oh, and I should point out, had I been mafia champ would be dead right now. That would have put us currently at 5 left with only nacho confirmed, and with a status of being seen as town by most I would only need to create two mislynches out of three of you.

"I'm not scum because I wouldn't do this!"
Self-meta is useless and irrelevant in this situation; the only real suspicion that had even been nudged Generic's way was the questions from me and the recent suspicion from Stubbs although I clearly was the top choice in that scenario. He hasn't been getting any suspicion any game, taking a risk by leaving champino town so he gets the benefit of getting to kill both of us before LyLo, so a little suspicion can be extremely dangerous if I buy it, meaning Generic panicking a bit here is scummy.

If you are jailing nacho and he ISN'T mafia then you get the chance to block the actual mafia.

I thought it was fairly obvious given currently you are holding on nacho while we aren't sure of his township.

Funny, he seemed to understand the plan before. Generic's plan here means that no one gets confirmed as town and has the potential to let scum-me off the hook completely for no tangible benefit.

You can lynch me, but considering I have been one of the more proactive players in the fake all you do is hand scum a fighting chance at a win.

This is an appeal to fear and again, scummy as fuck considering the circumstances.

And yes, I agreed under the stupid assumption nacho might give this game some of his time after requesting it. Didn't happen though did it?

Wow, I'm so glad I was wrong about you nacho, that was an analysis worth waiting all weekend for...

This frustration is inconsistent with Generic's strong push on Stubbs. Whereas Flay's frustration is genuine because yelling at me and telling me to do my job and lead, Generic is attempting a strong push in my absence all the while complaining how I was never around. Even now while he's said that he would self-vote but his personal game philosophy disagrees with it, he still hasn't attempted an actual push on me because he doesn't have anyone's blessing. I bet town Generic wouldn't give a shit whether champinoman thought people pushing on me today was scummy or not and would hold to his convictions, but this isn't what we're seeing here.

I think if scumnacho thought he would be given the lynch without question he would remove me, because you are scummier looking and he can try and talk his way out of the lynch the next day.

Calling me scum for attempting you remove him because he's so AMAZINGLY town.

So you spent your whole time proving why flat is town... Still no case against me though.

He's MOST interested in my case against him, for no clear reason. Emphasis should be put on cases of people who will possibly be around during lylo if we get there, but generic is obsessed with getting a case against him because he can respond to it, fight against it. He hasn't really been interested in explaining any reads with the sole exception of his stubbs read, which is his current mislynch of choice. He will talk a tiny little bit about the Gen Wolf no lynch idea and how Flay might just be a good player while simultaneously freaking out because people are having those same doubts about someone who is a different good player. It's aggressiveness geared almost entirely towards survival, and his play here has been such a far cry from his earlier town play that it's been like I found a crack in his suit of armor and then completely shattered it this last day with nothing more than expressing suspicion of him.

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you so keen to press me further now nacho, you already threw down your vote,

I would hope you weren't so trigger happy that you didn't feel it was justified in your mind,

why now trying to assert my alignment with the interrogation?

Suggesting that my attack on him obviously wasn't justified is discrediting me for being too "trigger happy".

It's restrained passiveness because I'm aware this is a newbie game and my usual openings in games are more aggressive and antagonistic,

I have no idea why Generic would ever take issue with an aggressive opening.

Of those who have posted so far, heres my opening feelings...

In the end, this wall ends up being a ton of words, not a whole lot of content, and a vote for an easy lynch. It's still an impressive wall, but it's the type of thing I could see scum Generic investigating a lot of time in for some early towncred.

Feel it has been showing early signs of gentle pressure application although some of it has been misguided, and also thinking about the vote.
His scum plays included hesitancy on the gen wolf vote when he wasnt so hesitant in miss stranger, and a couple of occasions where he has done something without explanation only to fill in the gap later when someone questions it (can be a scum tell as he uses the time to make the reason fit the agenda or mood). But the explanations that have been forthcoming have made a lot of sense. He is more town than scum to me at this stage.

nah, the good insight was the comment against feel it, and his waiting for how the game trended before laying down the vote.

Another problem with his reads is that a lot goes into them and they budge back and forth bit by bit but there isn't a part where they come together and consolidate. I think that consolidating reads and finding which ones you really believe in are the strongest part of a townie's game and so the fact he is lacking here is weird.

Champino has so far chose to dissect my posts to death, down to my comments on time and story time about my motives...

More discrediting.

In fact I'm so annoyed by that play,

unvote, vote antagon

antagon is now at L-1

Weird vote. It feels like Generic didn't want to miss out on the towncred that he would get by jumping on Antagon's wagon, and that feeling is supported by the subsequent vote on Feel It as well as the hammer itself; it was town because it didn't give time for counterclaims, but it is very possible Generic didn't want anyone else to get the hammer vote on his buddy.

Antagon, one more chance. Short snalydis of the rest of us or at the very least your top two and your bottom two.

I still maintain the best lynch is feel it,

Trying to kick Antagon into gear before lynching him, making sure he has as much time as possible before he goes down. Generic didn't really do anything close to this with chkflip.

[Nachomamma8]

[Nachomamma8]

i would love to be useful this day but i literally have no idea what the fuck is going on at this point. i feel great about flay and great about stubbs to the point where i would go with karnage in the end.

[Nachomamma8]

but honestly don't fucking lynch flay and you'll probably be alright

[Nachomamma8]

But I don't think it's THAT much better, and it makes NO sense in the larger context of the game.

Who are you lynching in Stubbs-You-Karnage lylo after I flip town?
This question goes out to all three of you.

[Nachomamma8]

That was all way too complicated to follow.

Why are we not lynching Nacho again??

The possibility of gaining another lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

NachoScum means we're in Row1, right (otherscum means we're in ColA)? That means that after the N1 missed kill he could have been setting up a ColA claim all along... it's the exact opposite of his position on the chart (C1), and because he was blocked he knows what setup we're in.

If my kill is stopped, I know that there's a doctor, bulletproof, or jailkeeper which tells me zero new information that is useless even if I did get it BECAUSE:

But if he lives that long and champino is dead, he's STILL NOT CONFIRMED. Why?

If champino dies blocking me then I am confirmed town, unless VRK is one of those mods who likes giving the scum a one-shot strongman when they haven't gotten a successful kill in a while.

[Nachomamma8]

I admit I'm partially frustrated because I didn't expect this game to go on 3-4 months...

I don't like how you're unwilling to go against the plan because "fuck the plan". I might be reading you incorrectly, but you don't seem very happy with it.

But I don't think it's THAT much better, and it makes NO sense in the larger context of the game.

Who are you lynching in Stubbs-You-Karnage lylo after I flip town?
This question goes out to all three of you.

Flay

Why aren't you vying for him now?

Karnage, what do you think of the plan?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand the question?

The plan makes some mathematical sense, but I think it is short-sighted and unnecessary in the context of the larger game. But since the only real loss is time, I'm not going to rail against it took hard.

OK.

Well, we still have time, no?

We don't need to speedlynch him.

But we should probably start talking about him now...

If you were to flip town I would most likely vote for flay as throughout the game he has been a scummier read for me than stubbs.

Why?

BTW, is there a reason you never addressed this:

I didn't want to have a massclaim in this game because I wasn't sure that it would bring good information with the two no kills. The other game had one scum down AND a kill after that so there was going to be 2 clears no matter what.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think Flay is scum. I don't know who I think is scum at the moment.

[Nachomamma8]

I lynched Feel It pretty easily. Generic was a bit rocky, but it was pretty obvious I thought he was scum. Now I don't think you are scum, and I'm currently deciding why we shouldn't just speedlynch them both.

[Nachomamma8]

you and karnage.

[Nachomamma8]

If you think that's a bad idea, there is this awesome town case on Flay that you could respond to at any time.

[Nachomamma8]

It's Day 6 and I'm getting tired of seeing people flip town so I want you to hold me and tell me that everything is OK and you are still town. Can you do that?

[Nachomamma8]

5.

[Nachomamma8]

It's Day 6 and I'm getting tired of seeing people flip town so I want you to hold me and tell me that everything is OK and you are still town. Can you do that?

Well I can tell you I'm still town, sure. I can say whatever I want though, so I don't see how this is helping you.

Why do you think my case on Flay town is wrong?

[Nachomamma8]

Well, Antagon is not newscum. He's joined november 2012. I don't have any experience with him before, so anything he would do or wouldn't do is a big question mark for me.

It's an unlikely move, and I see nothing from his meta to suggest otherwise.

Cornered as he was, Gen Wolf could have reached out like this, so he could get some help getting out of the situation he was in. This is not alignment indicative to me.

Cornered? It was Page 5.

Not really. This thought process was initially why I reconsidered my read on Generic. It proved to be false.

What do you mean by this?

Or it could be a last attempt to shift our opinion on him.

Mellow. JMO must just vote me then end the game. You have a very good way of making the games un-entertaining.

Anyways, I am ready for the almighty twist. I see the newspaper headlines tomorrow "Tamuz replaces in to get an almost perfect scum win". People will be shouting your name from the rooftops. People will be speaking of Newbie 1381 for centuries. This game will set a precedent throughout mafiascum that will overshadow any past achievement ever ascertained on this site. They will speak of how you fought to the very end. You will be a scum legend among scum, a ultimate victor among victors. One day, in my children's history class they will speak of Tamuz, the almighty mafiascum player who was so good he fooled everyone by creating fake numbers to ascertain 'who was scum'. When the numbers did not work, it was through no fault of his own, obviously, but rather the fault of the townie who did not act townie enough. They will praise you, worship you, honour you. For you are the almighty Tamuz.

Anyways, that is how I feel about this game. Sad that it has come to this but glad the end is in sight.

You see, I know I am not scum and yes if I want to speak from a negative perspective I will. At the end of the day it makes no difference, ultimately I could say "I know I am town" but you see Tamuz, I am town unlike you. Now, saying you have played a better game than me to convince JMO you are town and I am scum would be a lie. You played a harder game than me, and that I can admit.

This is Gen Wolf's last resort. Rife with AtE and cheap potshots. I didn't see that here.

I have no previous experience with Flay. And I'll admit that his play has been pretty good. But I fear that he is just an excellent player and has the ability to come back from the position he was in.

Maybe, but what suggests that's the case? What makes Karnage/Stranger town?

[Nachomamma8]

but Miss Stranger's.

Explain.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho: Why have you not placed a vote on who you find scummier out of Stubbs and Karnage? (you said you consider Flay the least likely)

I wanted to talk to stubbs a little bit first.

Vote: Karnage

What do you think of my Flay town case?

[Nachomamma8]

It's kind of moot with you two driving the bus.

There's no real reason to drive a powerlynch bus today, is there?

[Nachomamma8]

driving a powerlynch bus means that we vote, everyone follows. as in the bus we drive will be going over 80 miles per hour and whoever it makes contact with gets crushed and instantly dies.

the bus we're driving today is more akin to a bus through a swamp; we'll go a little slowly so the bus is only going to kill people who get pulled under the muck because no one is willing to get their new boots dirty saving them.

[Nachomamma8]

Why do I need to explain it anyway. You've called her your biggest townread yourself.

I did. Have you ever experienced a stale townread before?

[Nachomamma8]

A stale townread is when you have a townread on this guy for doing some townie things during the game which you can't really remember, then you lynch some people you find scum and they flip town and it's time to do a hard reset. If people haven't done things to renew their townread, then the townread gets "stale" and you should probably go through their posts and remember why you thought they were town again, maybe even talk with them a little bit and make them reassure you themselves. Think of what happened at the end of Arc's game.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho: Am I correct in the assumption that you don't actually find Karnage scummy, however you think both Stubbs and Flay are more likely town than Karnage?

No.

[Nachomamma8]

Well Nacho, you're going to need to make a case if you want me to vote him.

i know i know, don't have time at the moment

Just seems like another chance for you to vote against the grain (all other votes were on Flay or Stubbs) to try and drag this saga out. Is that your scum ploy? Drag this game out in the hope we abandon it?

that seems like a pretty bad ploy.

[Nachomamma8]

Better than your chances as scum

I can't say I understand this.

[Nachomamma8]

How's the weather where you are today Nacho?

i think his play since he's replaced in has been bad
i don't like how his flay suspicion is essentially based on nothing
i don't like his small attack on stubbs because it shows paranoia but that paranoia isn't reflected anywhere else in his posts
he sort of agrees with the plan every day but not really and seems to be confused from it even though it's pretty simple

[Nachomamma8]

but at this point i'm pretty ok with lynching flay now and if he flips town, lynching karnage.
i feel good about stubbs and i feel good about flay.

[Nachomamma8]

but i'm not really willing to pull a yesterday in order to get the against the grain push today

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, how are you going to convince me to change my mind?

i thought stubbs's play yesterday was town as hell, for one. karnage not voting me now shows that probably has no idea what the hell is going on and was fine with that for the past three days (or however long he's been the replacement, I forget).

[Nachomamma8]

why do you think I am scum?

[Nachomamma8]

did you have any other reasoning?

[Nachomamma8]

what did stubbs do to make you think that he was town?

[Nachomamma8]

champino, you around?

[Nachomamma8]

That's OK, there's not a whole lot to catch up on. But if you have time on monday we could casemake together and I would find that intensely helpful if you're around for it.

[Nachomamma8]

Perfect.

Vote: Karnage

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Stubbs

Why didn't you kill last night?

[Nachomamma8]

i'm pretty much a shoo in for lynch at the moment, going to throw one more wrench into the system and go through my notes. i'd be a poor sport if i didn't at least try to salvage this game that I royally fucked up.

[Nachomamma8]

Haha Nacho. Nice try.

just let me ramble. it's not likely champinoman will hammer you, i just want to give this game one last burst of effort and then it is going in my "never deal again" pile. if you think that I would spend hours and hours of my own personal time into a game that i have absolutely no chance in winning, then you clearly have no idea who i am

[Nachomamma8]

If you'll notice, we tried that several times. EVERY TIME it garnered accusations of being scum.

I propagated that. It wasn't really a good reason to find someone scum (sure they didn't want to go along with an optimal plan, but that was something that could have been talked about).

I maintain that the sportsmanlike thing for Nacho to do would have been to concede post-massclaim. Yes there was some minor chance champino would flake or miss his choice, but instead we got MONTHS of pointless discussion, apathy, and non-Mafia-related arguing. And while it was good WIFOM to make me think he was Town trying to salvage the game, it was never enough WIFOM to make me not lynch him in the end. Several people said that, enough to have majority every single Day. So why not concede?

I don't think it is the scum's responsibility to give themselves up when they are caught. It is still the town's responsibility to lynch that caught scum and end the game; you guys had majority on me for a day and a half, you could have lynched me at any time. I felt guilty lurking, but the only way that I could have even a tiny chance of winning was a last minute fuck up in that 7 player LyLo. Being active scum would have been nice, but then it would've been harder to picture town-Nacho fucking over the game by not picking scum. I saw people thinking I was scum or townish until 3p LyLo sure, but some things change. We were in this thing for a WHILE, and I figured the less of a directing hand I had in the game the more believable the final sell in 3p lylo.

Also also, what was up with the first two missed kills by scum?

First one was because I didn't have a strong PR read and I expected most of the playerlist to target me, didn't lose anything from it since I would earn another kill in MyLo (and because I'd have a clearer picture of the game by then). Second no kill was stupid, I was gonna shoot Miss Stranger but then I realized no cop, no good PR reads, and I was more afraid of an easy mislynch getting confirmed town than I was about getting another lynch. I regretted the second one pretty quickly, not that it mattered in the end.