Newbie 1391 - Game Over - FINALLY!!!

[Antagon]

VOTE: James May
Wagon time.

[Antagon]

Provokative wagon, or a quick plan in the pregame scumchannel?

UNVOTE: Gen_Wolf.

Early wagons are the best way to end RVS. Looking at people's reactions to the wagon will lead to actual content being posted instead of random votes.
The longer RVS goes on, the more likely it is for the mafia to justify their actions as RVS.

[Antagon]

Oh no, it's backseat scumhunting Nacho again.

Wait. Could you explain where this backseat scumhunting Nacho comes from first?

[Antagon]

UNVOTE: Antagon.

Vote is on hold until we get some input from other players. My current analysis:
Fegelein: leaning town
Feel It: null
Gen_Wolf: scummy
Antagon: null

Please explain. What made Fegelein look town?
What did Gen_Wolf do that made him scummy?

[Antagon]

Back. Physically couldn't get to a computer.

Genuine question: what is backseat scumhunting and is it a good thing?

Don't ignore my questions, oh mighty IC! ^^;

Backseat hunting comes from this post.

Oh no, it's backseat scumhunting Nacho again.

Wait. Could you explain where this backseat scumhunting Nacho comes from first?

Newbie 1344, all he pretty much did is ask questions, flipped scum.

UNVOTE: Antagon.

Vote is on hold until we get some input from other players. My current analysis:
Fegelein: leaning town
Feel It: null
Gen_Wolf: scummy
Antagon: null

Please explain. What made Fegelein look town?
What did Gen_Wolf do that made him scummy?

Why are these reads important enough for your follow up question considering you have ignored the following read on yourself made a lot earlier?

Because lists like this should be posted with at least

some

reasoning behind it.
I ignored the read on Feel It and myself because everyone starts out being read as null. As the game goes on, it becomes easier to get reads on players.

Antagon is active lurking, asking about people questions without contributing much himself. Fegelein has done the same but is a bit more involved.

Except between when you call me out for active lurking and now, I physically couldn't post.

[Antagon]

Because lists like this should be posted with at least

some

reasoning behind it.
I ignored the read on Feel It and myself because everyone starts out being read as null. As the game goes on, it becomes easier to get reads on players.

That's not what I asked. I asked why you felt you needed to clarify post #29 by Miss Stranger but you didn't feel the need to clarify post #17 by Fegelein. Here is the post bolded for convenience:

She's fine at L-2.

Antagon is probably Town

.

Considering the above was a read on yourself I find it hard to accept you missed it.

This is a valid point.

Point conceded. However, I already knew

what

post Fegelein extracted a townread from. At that moment, I had only two posts: an RVS one and one explaining why wagons are the best way to get out of RVS.
In hindsight, it was a bad idea not to ask why Fegelein would post such an early townread.

[Antagon]

This is starting to bug me and I will finally say something. Miss Stranger, a lot of what you are saying is based on if's, and a lot of these 'if's' revolve around me. Firstly, IF Gen_Wolf is scum then Feel It is town and vice versa. Secondly, 'If' Gen is scum then Champ is next inline.

My grievances with this are, firstly, you are already playing Day 2. You are so sure that I am going to flip scum that when I don't you are going to be taking two steps back and thus not only would you have wasted day 1 but you will be spending day 2 starting a fresh. I am not saying that voting me is wrong, if you feel I am the most scummiest of players then please lay your vote down on me. However, what I do ask is stop making assumptions based on me being scum because I can promise you it is wrong and it will be a detriment to town inevitably. Thus, all I ask is play the game now for Day 1. If I do get voted off, then start making your decisions based on solid facts because you will know my alignment and thus there will be no need to speculate.

Heeeey aren't you supposed to be afk? (kidding, good thing you show up)

If I was dead sure you're scum, my vote would have already been on you. Since I'm not, nor do I think you are the scummiest, it's not. I admit you are pretty central to my reasoning so far, and that's because aside from me, 4 more players (FI, Generic, Nacho and Champ) are directly actively discussing on your behaviour. At this point you aren't scummy enough to deserve my vote, you are just scummy enough for me to have a "what if" about you. I wouldn't be surprised if you

don't

end up being lynched today, but it won't come unexpected.

I don't think I'm playing Day 2 just yet. I'm still sorting people into my town and mafia zone, and while you are a card I often toy with, you are *not* this central to me as you make it seem like. It's the vastly different opinions about you that make you central.

The fact you are genuinely frustrated about how I think you're scum is probably the first strong town vibe from you, and I'm glad you spoke up.

I like that Miss Stranger tries to genuinely scumhunt, but this part seems to confuse me.
How would a non-fatalistic attitude give you a townvibe? Both town and scum would be frustrated if anyone thought they were scum. Town has a justifiable reason for being frustrated and scum would be frustrated because it's harder to achieve their objective of blending in with the town.
Unless Miss Stranger is seeing something I'm not...

[Antagon]

Doing some ISOs now.
Fegelein:

Why bother with day 1. Lets just lynch Miss Stranger now and go from there? We are already onto our first scum.

Yeah...um...no.

Wait. How is it possible for anyone to take a Page 1 scum read seriously? It's like having a first post of "The next player who posts is scum."

Allowing wagons to form in RVS is a good method to get the game running. We can gauge reactions from James May.

Never do that Feel, it's WIFOM. Scum can play anyway they want.

Information Instead of Analysis. Instead of actually scumhunting, Fegelein instead chooses to talk theory instead. Therefore, he can say that he's actually done something while instead he's just blending in the background.

[Antagon]

Information Instead of Analysis. Instead of actually scumhunting, Fegelein instead chooses to talk theory instead. Therefore, he can say that he's actually done something while instead he's just blending in the background.

That's pretty rich coming from you, don't you think?

Yes, I know. However, I'm not voting him

because

he's guilty of IIoA.

[Antagon]

I will be graduating high school today, but you can expect some more ISOs later today.

[Antagon]

Spoiler: James May and Gen_Wolf

James May:

Feg, I'm trying to be a bit more cautious this time because the last game i played I jumped the gun on a lynch that costed me the game >_> (was town that game btw) and I don't have solid reads on anyone but the questions was merely out of curiosity to see their reasoning. Better to survey the area from afar (well for me at least since I am trying to stop jumping the bullet for long phases like this :/ Use to playing 48-96 hour day phases and it requires a bit of on your feet kind of thing...)

So people can vote me for not having reads, but James May is immune because he says he had no reads?

Guess I can give out my reads on those who I have a slight feeling on, skimming through this because I have finals on two of my classes this week so I do apologize for not being active.

Miss Stranger: Aside from that minor derp up on the editing part, it seems like your leaning towards town atm, but I feel like you're being insistent on starting a wagon on gen wolf (although I may not be as experienced in this sort of scumreading/hunting as most people here) but we'll see how gen wolf goes on from this point.

Is that a problem? Both town and scum tunnel. Does wanting to start a wagon on Gen_Wolf automatically make her town?

Nacho: Aside from the "backseat scumhunting" that Fegelin pointed out, I can't point out exactly where to place you in atm, leaning slightly towards town maybe.

What do you think about Fegelein's comments that he hasn't

actually

scumhunt but is only asking questions?

Generic: So far providing interesting analysis upon other players on his first few posts, it looks like he's town at the moment but who knows, he could be playing a good scum cover-up, we'll see how it goes from there, as I haven't seen how his playstyle is, might look into previous games to find a good meta on him unless if its his first.

Why do you seem overly paranoid? It's very hard to fake scumhunting, so therefore providing logical analysis is more likely to be town. Anyone who acts town could be, according to your read on Generic, extremely good scum.

Gen wolf: Heh. Nice sarcastic remark in regards to simply lynching Miss Stranger. Not sure where Feel It (Was it Feel It? Might need to look through it again, but I think it was Feel It. if not was was Feglin) is going on with champin "buddying" you just for the compliment on that remark but i see little to no association with buddying/white knighting involving with that little agreement.

So what read did that give you? All you did was say that you thought that Gen_Wolf was not buddying championman. That "read" just seems like a paragraph to say that Gen_Wolf didn't buddy anyone.

James May:

he made an odd waltz-in in the middle of the game and got immediately picked on this line: "I'm trying to be a bit more cautious this time", pointed as a heavy scumtell by Fegelein and Champ and apparently Feel It. Afraid to jump to conclusions because last game he was wrong and lost (isn't that what happens everytime when town loses?). He currently has no scumreads on anyone and plans on relying on meta once he has more time. Why meta and not the current game? (I admit I use meta a little, but only to see if a certain Mr. Busy is really busy or just bluffing). I think his cautiousness is more about the (newbie / just-hammered-bad-and-still-sore?) fear of lynching the wrong person rather than fear of getting more involved, and I currently don't think he's as scummy as people make him seem to be. He admits to being busy, but did a little bit of reads, which IMO speaks more good than bad about him and I'm interested to see what more he has to say once he finishes his finals. What I personally don't like is the fact I notice a very subtle reliance on my trust in him and that in post

141

he explained his reads on everybody except on me. It makes me uncomfortable and I feel at a future point he might try to talk me into/lean on me for defence should he become more heavily suspected. For now I'd say he's more likely town than scum, but can easily go the other way around.

Reason why I'm relying on meta is to get a general idea of everyone that's playing in this game, of course I'm looking into the nulls since I'm uncertain on how their town/scum gameplays are since for me just basing it on the first phase of this game doesn't suffice enough to get solid reads. But once it gets onto the later phases (mainly after Day 2) I can get better info on the players in this current game rather than relying on past games. Luckily, today's my last final so I'll be able to have a bit more free time afterward (still gotta finish up two more classes, yay for summer terms being ridiculously wonky @_@). Also, on post 141, I was more inclined on explaining the players in the null area (with the exception of Generic) and to be quite honest, I haven't spotted on anything really suspecting about you so far in this game.

So you're saying that meta is the main way for you to get solid reads on Day 1?

Gen_Wolf:

Why bother with day 1. Lets just lynch Miss Stranger now and go from there? We are already onto our first scum.

Yeah...um...no.

I hope you realize I wasn't being serious?

I don't see how changing votes in RVS is scummy in any way. Ignoring my obvious joke vote on Gen_Wolf, I simply voted Antagon for starting a wagon on someone who's afk. I don't see how a wagon on an afk person would make them less afk. Game's just started. Sheesh.

And yes, I simply forgot to add my VOTE: tag in my previous post. I thought I could edit instead of doublepost, but apparently I can't. Apologies, rookie mistake. But tell me, Gen_Wolf, what could I possibly hide in my single, straightforward sentence that I would want to edit away? Just asking for your opinion as to why you think is scummy.

Feel It, same question to you. What's exactly wrong with changing an obvious joke vote, during RVS at that, that would make YOU switch vote?

Its a reaction test and it also allows RVS to come to an end. I don't like RVS, the longer it lasts the more crap that gets posted then it gets over analysed. By me changing my vote so early and raising an issue over something as stupid as you editing it allows for you to answer to it and it also gets the game out of RVS by creating suspicions such as the ones we have now.

Why bother with day 1. Lets just lynch Miss Stranger now and go from there? We are already onto our first scum.

Lynching anybody this early would be silly, we need to poke and prod and talk and get reactions, see who seems scummiest before making a decision. Not sure if I should give you benefit of the doubt due to your newness or change my vote now tbh.

Feel it, thank you for the explanation I do understand. I did not really intend to lynch Miss Stranger this early. Firstly, I did it for the reaction to see how she responded. Secondly, I did it to end RVS which I think I achieved.

VOTE: UNVOTE

I suppose you're right. While your behavior and reaction was odd, it's not as alarming as Gene_Wolf suggesting to lynch you already.

Answered above. Don't want to lynch her.

Town points for trying to end RVS. Jumping on him for that obviously non-serious post will not make you look town.

She's fine at L-2.

Antagon is probably Town.

Agreed, Miss Strangers' wish to edit posts, changing votes on a joke bw could be newness or perhaps an early scumtell?

Her wish to edit posts is probably based on the site she comes from which allows that sort of thing.
Changing votes from a joke bandwagon to a serious one is always a good move.

No point in making specific thoughts on comments made at this stage as most will say it was a joke. Best to include it with anything later when it truly begins to matter.

Why are you so worried with how others will perceive you? If it's not a joke, then it will help us get into that stage where things WILL start to matter.

Vote: Generic

I never said I was worried with how people perceive me? I explained why I did it. Why you putting words in my mouth?

Don't like this post from Nacho. Generic's 30 didn't suggest that he was worried about people perceiving him badly. It's just that reads on people during RVS could just be shrugged off as "It's just RVS."

Are you serious? I'm one the more involved posters so far, and retorting my scum claim with an accusation against me only makes you look even worse, look how quickly and desperate you latched on to champinoman backing you up before you accuse me of buddying.

Yes I am very serious. Just because you have more posts does not make you more involved. It could just mean your posting more fluff. And yes, why thank you for making me look good as I did not latch on to Champinoman, he agreed with my post and liked it. Is that a scum tell now?

@Feel It: Please show me where I have "desperately latched on to champinoman"?

Feel It seems slightly overeager to call out Gen_Wolf for his buddying.
Gen_Wolf

was not buddying championman.

Buddying him would involve calling championman town for making that post in the first place.

(snip)

The only thing I ask that as townie players please do not lynch me anytime soon. We have 12 days to lynch someone. Within those 12 days if you still feel the need to lynch me that is mellow but at least take the other 12 days for scum to talk there way into trouble.

(snip)

People jumped on Gen_Wolf for his "fatalistic attitude," but this portion is not alignment-indicative at all. It's not "Please don't lynch me," but "Please don't

quicklynch

me." It's highly detrimental for town to lynch someone when there is still time for discussion, but his comment is null because both town and scum can easily post something like this.

So, reads.
TOWN:
Gen_Wolf

NULL/LEANING TOWN:

NULL:
Everyone else.

NULL/LEANING SCUM:
Fegelein
James May

SCUM:

[Antagon]

Antagon, am I leaning scum just because of IIoA.

Only partially and partially because I'm not done reading ISOs yet. As I read more, you'll have a more solid place on my reads list.

[Antagon]

I shall hold off my vote on antagon since he is at L-2. Does he want to claim at this stage cos my vote is currently earmarked for him.

I will only claim if intent is stated.
Nobody should hammer without claiming intent.

[Antagon]

Yes, I'm here.
VOTE: Nacho
It's clearly obvious that James May won't be lynched today.
This is partially because I want to save myself and partially because Nacho also seems scummy to me.

Warning: Nacho is at L-1.

[Antagon]

Not happy with antagons antics there. Depending on the nachomamma response I'm tempted to switch over.

That was opportunistic.

What would you have preferred he do though? Whether he is town or not he is going to try and survive. At least he didn't lie about his reasoning.

I'm keeping my vote where it is though.

Would you have preferred it if I had kept my vote on James May then?

[Antagon]

Just adding stuff through reading.

Antagon

^
gets called out for lurking, and when actually posting, adds nothing besides explaining backseat hunting.
First actual input at post 174. Congratulations.
That vote on Nacho was really bad.

Okay, then. Let's take a look at my logic:
>Put at L-1 during the crash
>James May wagon not going anywhere
>Obviously not going to support a lynch on myself, who is confirmed town to myself
>Vote Nacho
Would you prefer that I didn't even bother to try and self-voted? I'm not going to take a defeatist attitude just because I have a wagon on me. I will never fully accept my lynch and would vote Nacho even if I didn't think he was scum.
Why should it matter that the vote was seen as

opportunistic

? Would it have made a difference if I had voted Nacho earlier?
Should I have continued to park my vote on James May instead?

[Antagon]

Would you prefer that I didn't even bother to try and self-voted? I'm not going to take a defeatist attitude just because I have a wagon on me. I will never fully accept my lynch and would vote Nacho even if I didn't think he was scum.

Again, false dichotomy. There are three days left, and you haven't done your promised ISOs on most of the game. James May is being replaced, so that probably explains why people weren't interested in lynching him. You could also talk about other suspects and try to reiterate why you feel James May is scum, you could try to compromise with a Fegelein vote... it's not a matter of you or me; you're only treating it that way so you have an excuse to hop on my wagon.

So, the fact that I'm voting a null read instead of a scum one makes me scum? Good to know.

[Antagon]

If antagon is mafia, I'm pitching either fegelein or feel it for teammate, both if its a three man team (forgot what the split was).
Feel it refused to move his vote to nacho yet was happy to post intent to hammer on him. It simply doesn't add up.

To me he wants to sit on the antagon wagon in case that ends in a lynch so he can appear a part if it, but was ready to wait for nacho to respond and then hammer him claiming the posts weren't good enough.

Two-man.
What makes Fegelein my partner?

[Antagon]

Antagon - I originally felt uncomfortable with lynching Antagon because the case on him was essentially "he's lurking, meaning he's either busy or scum" which is lazy and weak reasoning. But his recent hop on my wagon sent up a major red flag, and there are plenty of things that I don't like in his ISO:

Overall, Antagon is scummy as fuck and makes for a wonderful lynch. I think it's about getting to be claim time on that one.

I currently think they are as useless as each other and am having trouble deciding which one deserves it more. I'm not even worried if they aren't scum because they are useless townies anyway. So much for having IC and SE players to teach us all how to play and guide us.

You said something like this while ignoring someone like Fegelein? Really?

Seems to me the only difference between now and then is that Antagon is at L-1.

This is a STRONG misrep, considering you somehow missed all those posts Antagon made in the middle. So yeah, it makes sense if his reads shift a bit.

Wait, what? Why did you explicitly say that "Antagon is scummy as fuck and should be lynched" so that you would suddenly change to championman?
As town, the only reason you would suddenly change your reads on a dime is to avoid being accused of tunneling. That is not the case. Before Nacho's long absence, he did not say that I was scum and should be lynched.
Why is Nacho suddenly distancing from my wagon?
Because I'm town and he knows it.
Who else would make a wall post to say "Antagon is scum" and not vote for him? Who would jump to someone completely unrelated? Someone who knows that I will flip town and wants to ensure that he doesn't get credit for my lynch by not being on my wagon. a.k.a. scum.

[Antagon]

I will be semi-V/LA for the next week.
Sorry if that causes any inconveniences.
I don't have time to make any analysis, but I am going to claim One-Shot Bulletproof.