Newbie 1393 Game Over

[Smudger]

VOTE: Feel It


Because I do,( how could you all) and you have an actor for an avatar ;-p

[Smudger]

No comment on the wagon on you?

I did, my vote "Feel it" + Because I do + ( how could you all) is my comment, what do you think on the wagon?

VOTE: Feel It


Because I do,( how could you all) and you have an actor for an avatar ;-p

[Smudger]

If we are talking time zones I am living in the UAE (Dubai) and am currently 4 hours ahead of GMT.

[Smudger]

My time zone GMT +4
Have played about 7 games of mafia before and am currently in 5 games, 4 on this site and 1 on another site which is where I picked up the bug.
I like playing both as town and scum really, have no real preference.
Against it when town for it in certain circumstances when scum, but not near game end - mylo/lylo

[Smudger]

There hasn't been enough activity to have complete reads. Your actions have been the most pro-town so far because you wanted to start discussions a few times (it's the third attempt). Smudger hasn't given a decent answer to his wagon, it really annoys me. But so far there have been no scummy nor townish behaviour. (Or I'm just lame)

Really what more would you like me to say, please don't lynch me, how scummy is that?

No my response is as I said how could you all, and notscience has not answered my question I see. maybe there was an answer but it got lost in the crash, so if you did could you answer again please?


with regard to the question from notscience and this debate with Desew, while the comment is strange and there is a contradiction in terms with the statement made by Desew. I would hazard that it could quite possibly be a mistake, but the squirming by Desew that then ensues is questionable. Activity levels should not be used just to gauge a players' alignment as there are some very confident players who can be either town or scum and maintain very a very active presence in a thread. That said though, it would is again have to be judge against each of you and your experience, therefore IMO Desew looks the more suspicious primarily because of the backtracking, but this could be attributed to a lack of experience?

[Smudger]

this I see as backtracking

I think I see the problem. I used these words in these meanings:
pro-town: somewhat useful for the town. For example when there is low activity, posting helps town ergo it's pro-town.
townish: seems to be townie (not scum).
I agree that mostly they mean the same but with so few posts it's different now imo. If you're scum there can be several reasons why you want to post while there's no activity but you are helping town because we get some information.

[Smudger]

still keeping my vote on smudget because people on dubai cant sleep together if they arent married!!!

they do though

[Smudger]

I am going to catch up and will post later today, yes my post above seems random, but it made me laugh that someone could be naive about what humans do here in Dubai. anyway I have quickly skimmed and have seen some points that I will definitely comment on. I will leave this one hanging though

Dessew, why so dismissive of my backtracking comment?

[Smudger]

If you really want reads, I like Feel It and Z7.

you like , meaning you think they are town or scum?

[Smudger]

In regards to activity correlating to alignment, just because someone posts frequently doesn't make them good or bad. In fact, someone who is town could post a lot of bad information and have that be potentially more dangerous to us in the long run.

in many respects what you are saying is true, but in my limited experience town players are less inhibited about what they post and how frequently as they have nothing to hide. where as scum do have something to hide and any slip would be jumped on mercilessly by more experienced players, and so they tend to keep their inputs low. IMO, which again is limited, A town player who posts badly is generally lynched because of that play and so the danger you speak of is limited but the impact is the loss of a town player.

I find it interesting that you would bring this up though?

[Smudger]

UNVOTE:

my RVS is still there, Feel It - your reappearence reminded me

[Smudger]

I like questions more than just stating it.

Smudger, who is scum?

currently, no-one is standout i my mind, but that is probably as my mind is still trying to decipher what the hell you guys see that is scum and what is not. I need to really concentrate and see what I can pick up. what is somewhat annoying is the fact that the opening punches are somewhat vicious and, to be honest mostly misleading' If you want to push me then I would actually put my vote back on Feel It, as his sum contribution is what? Squat.... I would also disagree with Z7 he left himself off his list and he should be higher than me or Hopeful, as right now I get a town vibe from him (hopeful)

[Smudger]

Respectable smudger, just look and try to find something that comes off weird to you or that town wouldn't agree.

or that town "would not" agree? really, no its great, thanks for the help... *asking the obvious question* of course you mean would agree and you are being sarcastic?

[Smudger]

I like questions more than just stating it.

Smudger, who is scum?

currently, no-one is standout i my mind, but that is probably as my mind is still trying to decipher what the hell you guys see that is scum and what is not. I need to really concentrate and see what I can pick up. what is somewhat annoying is the fact that the opening punches are somewhat vicious and, to be honest mostly misleading' If you want to push me then I would actually put my vote back on Feel It, as his sum contribution is what? Squat.... I would also disagree with Z7 he left himself off his list and he should be higher than me or Hopeful, as right now I get a town vibe from him (hopeful)

I find that interesting. I've made observations, accusations and put a vote down, and I'd say I've put in as much as you, and more than Danny and mvm, so it's curious that you singled out me for not contributing. Feels almost like like a buddy attempt with notscience and Z7. VOTE: Smudger

notscience has become even more carefree with his posts even with my pressure so if he is scum he's pulling off a good masquerade.

I think Danny is just a town not taking himself seriously, but I could be wrong and he's pulling a double bluff.

Z7's estimations of people are a bit odd, how is mvm more town than FuDuzn? He seems town though.

Dessew and FuDuzn are both null for now, haven't really been able to get a read on them.

mvm has done nothing useful, will have put as a leaning scum for now, would like to see more involvement.

HopefullyCynical seems a newbie town. Got us fooled if scum.

why did I single you out

Sorry I fell asleep last night, if I missed any questions just ask me again.

then nothing until your reply and vote on me. Your comment then absence seemed strange

[Smudger]

And Smudger, when you say Z7 should be higher than me, do you mean he should be more towny or more scummy?

I am saying that I lean town on you and he is more scummy,

[Smudger]

Smudger, I echo Feel It's thoughts on your accusation. Why single him out for not contributing specifically? I feel that he has contributed a fair amount.

looking at Feel It in ISO, then I would say his post contribution is the same as mine, and so I would actually agree, and retract my comment. I suppose it is as I state in my post 109.

[Smudger]

I hope Z7 comes back in here soon, I'd like to see his response to the DDP vote.

We'd probably get an even better response if you voted him as well.

Last time Z7-852 posted, there wasn't much going so he couldn't provide much content.

Very reasonable, you should probably vote for him as well for being so reasonable.

what? so everyone should vote for Z7-852, do you not have an opinion to offer as to why?

[Smudger]

My weekend begins tomorrow so will not be that active until Sunday

[Smudger]

but i agree with cynical that it's weird to see notscience asking people about the "no lynch" thing.
I just think notscience is trying to look very active and to pass an image of a scum hunter.

would you say his posts do not contain enough content to pass as scum hunting then? If so what about yourself?

First, it is FuDuzn......I think it has been a conspiracy that everyone on this site spells my name wrong lol

Second, are you voting me as a prod or do you think I am scum? Or is this just a pre emptive sheeping(sounds like an oxymoron I know)?

Third, on my computer. Gonna catch up and post some thoughts.

Andddd......Go!

what a waste of effort this is.

[Smudger]

Now I like to have fun with a lot of my posting, but this was all fluff a zero content when we are clearly out of rvs. Not a fan of this but in a newbie game I wouldn't see scum being this comfortable to make a post like this.

why do people do this,” If I was scum” I would not do this? WIFOM much?

[Smudger]

Basically Z7 is my top scum read, followed by notscience and Cynical. DDDP and Dessew are both null to me, Dessew leading a bit more towards the scum side of null since he seems too afraid to make a mistake. I lean towards MVM being town, though admittedly it is partially because of the people who want him lynched. Feel It is my most solid town read.

and me? what about me? Feel it seems to think I am scummy so why not agree with him about me if he is your most solid town read?

but I get a 'quietly pulling the strings' vibe from him.

which means what please?

[Smudger]

It was mostly how he substituted the word interesting for anything useful in his second post that bothered me; it's nothing substansive but felt like I should poke at him a bit.

the use of wording is a scum tell now? please expand?

Ya motherfucker! I almost had him, I almost had him. Ya stuttering prick ya. notscience, was he shaking? I wonder about you sometimes, Dessew. You may fold under questioning.

sorry? had him? Had him doing what? or is this sarcasm?

[Smudger]

Smudgers latest posts (#161-#164) strike me as scummy. There was one sentence that wasn't a question and most of the questions were rhetorical. It's just lot of text but little content. Yes he is trying to invoke conversation but he's not really giving anything to us. No personal views or reads or anything. Here I have to agree with Fuduzn (#156) that Smudger is trying to fly under the radar and acting as neutral and null as possible.

give me a chance I am still putting stuff together

such as this

Feel It would seem to have the hots for HC

HopefullyCynical seems a newbie town. Got us fooled if scum.

Cynical seems pretty town to me,

I also refer back to this

Smudger, I echo Feel It's thoughts on your accusation. Why single him out for not contributing specifically? I feel that he has contributed a fair amount.

looking at Feel It in ISO, then I would say his post contribution is the same as mine, and so I would actually agree, and retract my comment. I suppose it is as I state in my post 109.

let me just qualify things a little, I may have retracted my comment about the number of posts but Feel It remains my No 1 scum right now. His posts have increased in number but they still do not IMO openly hunt scum. It is either a run down on his current feel for players in game or justifying why mvm should be lynched. He raises a question about myself to FuDuzn, but no one else?

and on closer inspection his scum and town feels seem to vary, in one area in particular

Hmm, well I disagree with most of your reads actually, Cynical seems pretty town to me, Dessew and Z7 both lean town as well. You, mvm and notscience are null overall. DDDp is comic relief. Smudger seems really cautious and I just get a bad vibe from him, would like to see more.

I like questions more than just stating it.

Smudger, who is scum?

currently, no-one is standout i my mind, but that is probably as my mind is still trying to decipher what the hell you guys see that is scum and what is not. I need to really concentrate and see what I can pick up. what is somewhat annoying is the fact that the opening punches are somewhat vicious and, to be honest mostly misleading' If you want to push me then I would actually put my vote back on Feel It, as his sum contribution is what? Squat.... I would also disagree with Z7 he left himself off his list and he should be higher than me or Hopeful, as right now I get a town vibe from him (hopeful)

I find that interesting. I've made observations, accusations and put a vote down, and I'd say I've put in as much as you, and more than Danny and mvm, so it's curious that you singled out me for not contributing. Feels almost like like a buddy attempt with notscience and Z7. VOTE: Smudger

notscience has become even more carefree with his posts even with my pressure so if he is scum he's pulling off a good masquerade.

I think Danny is just a town not taking himself seriously, but I could be wrong and he's pulling a double bluff.

Z7's estimations of people are a bit odd, how is mvm more town than FuDuzn? He seems town though.

Dessew and FuDuzn are both null for now, haven't really been able to get a read on them.

mvm has done nothing useful, will have put as a leaning scum for now, would like to see more involvement.

HopefullyCynical seems a newbie town. Got us fooled if scum.

Personally I think mvm's passiveness is a null tell, he's a lurker in general and it looks to me like he's gonna be scapegoated into an easy lynch.

in particular the last comment in #103 set against #117. what changed in that time? considering he has not been on or posted?

[Smudger]

There was one sentence that wasn't a question and most of the questions were rhetorical.

would that be in your opinion, as I don't see any rhetorical questions, they are all questions I have asked of the people I have quoted, you do know what that word means do you not?

[Smudger]

in particular the

second from last

last comment in #103 set against #117

Fixed

[Smudger]

noted,

[Smudger]

Fuduzn, #172 oh dear a little too defensive there IMO, Where did I say you were saying you were scum?. I say "why do people say this", the inference being that they, people, may allude to the fact that scum might do this or might do that, or that, if they were in the position of playing as scum them maybe they would be doing so and so. In certain contexts I find it rather scummy tbh...

[Smudger]

Fuduzn, #172

oh dear a little too defensive there IMO, Where did I say you were saying you were scum?. I say "why do people say this", the inference being that they, people, may allude to the fact that scum might do this or might do that, or that, if they were in the position of playing as scum them maybe they would be doing so and so. In certain contexts I find it rather scummy tbh...

Fixed

[Smudger]

darn it.... maybe not

[Smudger]

@Smudger: It changed when everybody bandwagoned on him for lurking, was too easy a target for people to gang up on and brought my attention to others. Like I said I'm not convinced he's town but lynching someone just for lurking is not really good town play.

completely disagree that is what happened, I cannot see why you would go from , your Post 103 :-

"mvm has done nothing useful, will have put as a leaning scum for now, would like to see more involvement."

to your Post 111:

"Personally I think mvm's passiveness is a null tell, he's a lurker in general and it looks to me like he's gonna be scapegoated into an easy lynch."

you are contradicting your own read here and this is with no activity from said player between the posts. you are saying he is leaning scum with you for no activity then you say he is a null tell for the same reasons?

Dessew your post 176 just about to do that

Not too long till day 1 ends, and there's nobody I'm really comfortable lynching. Gonna have to do a reread and see what comes up.

I am

VOTE: Feel It

[Smudger]

Will comment on my latest read tomorrow am off to sleep now

[Smudger]

notscience, if you post less about how dead the game is and make your posts worthwhile the game wouldn't be so "dead".

I would have to agree here, it is becoming very noticeable and also

this comes after the above

One guy can only do so much.

MVM isn't doing much to make me want to keep him.

and well that is good to know that you would not want to keep him..

then comes this

Yeah, he's gonna be lynched.

my vote is safe thanks I find Feel it scummy and this only compounds that feeling more

so this from mvm I find noteworthy

Actual Read: scum

Feel It

Safe looking player. Posts few and precise.

Actual Read: town tendency

is this genuine or distancing? let' see shall we?

[Smudger]

He could be a power role

which means you are not convinced or have another reason to hold your vote. if you are not convinced why give notice to hammer, why not wait for someone else to do it?

Okay I also intend to vote mvm as I think he and Feel It as scum buddies, so unless mvm wishes to claim, I will hammer today (RL)

[Smudger]

Ok, bad choice of words on reflection, I should have said I will hammer if Feel it does not.


and as for the tunneling Feel It really? I disagree, its not tunneling it is me expressing my thoughts and you have avoided my question

[Smudger]

.-.

I thought I had voted MVM ;-;

VOTE: Danny

Interesting. Reason?

[Smudger]

You mean this type of fluff?

I think experience is the best teacher and so unless otherwise prompted I'll be playing the game the same as the rest of you.

~~

VOTE: DDDP

When in doubt vote the person who hammered you in a game when you were town and cost town the game.

/notbitter

If we lynch you today you won't have the same problem.

VOTE: FuDuzn

I hope Z7 comes back in here soon, I'd like to see his response to the DDP vote.

We'd probably get an even better response if you voted him as well.

Last time Z7-852 posted, there wasn't much going so he couldn't provide much content.

Very reasonable, you should probably vote for him as well for being so reasonable.

btw if your response is serious I am going to die js

Ya motherfucker! I almost had him, I almost had him. Ya stuttering prick ya. notscience, was he shaking? I wonder about you sometimes, Dessew. You may fold under questioning.

I will make a actual post with content hopefully later tonight.

It appears hope has been lost.

*cough* Hello? I am in this game as well right?

Also, so part of your reasoning to vote DDDP is him quoting Goodfellas?

Don't forget the part where I get accussed of sheeping despite asking people to vote with me and not moving my vote to vote with other people.

I thought he was just making a jokey sort of post using the Goodfellas quote.

I mean that should've been obvious to anyone paying attention.

[Smudger]

Smudger was one of the biggest anti-Feel It players here. What do you guys make of that?

I thought he was scum, I was wrong.. that is what I make of it, why are you trying to make something of it?

[Smudger]

Yes that is what it would amount to, Damny would offer that I am scum because I thought Feel It was scummy and now Feel It is dead, If you are basing your play on this thought process then who did you vote to Lynch Danny and why? Oh and where is that player now?

[Smudger]

Yes that is what it would amount to,

Danny

would offer that I am scum because I thought Feel It was scummy and now Feel It is dead, If you are basing your play on this thought process then who did you vote to Lynch Danny and why? Oh and where is that player now?

Fixed

[Smudger]

Danny do you really think Feel It was pushing me? As I don"t. In fact his attention to me was minimal and of no pressure yo me. Even your rather weak case here that you are trying to build seems pretty poor in comparison. Now with regard to your observation concerning my quotes of your fluff, so? Sk you feel threatened by them? I think not, and as for not commenting afterwards, I was actually waiting to see your response and that is now duly noted.Finally, your reputation? What reputation?

[Smudger]

Smudger went in pretty hard on Feel It and while that in of itself is not indicative of scum, it's worth looking at since Feel It was night killed and revealed to be town.

this is understandable but then so did you on mvm. in fact you basically lead the charge so to speak to for the lynch, lets have a look now shall we:

104 you ask the question to all regarding a possible mvm lynch, granted that you make a valid reason regarding activity but then you continue to push this vote: 132 140 183 184 213 223

but then you sort of contradict yourself in 160 where you say

This is actually a fairly good point in my opinion. I can understand wanting the lurkers to post more, but why would you not vote for the person you think is the scummiest?

but then you do not really offer any indication at all about who you find scummy other than mvm because of inactivity. Something else I have noticed about your play, you are keen to ensure we understand that you are new to forum games and repeatedly mention it. you begin in 29, then continue 63, 76, 94

which is all well and good but your ISO would not tend to support your apparent inexperience, as when reading through it seems you are more experienced than you may be leading us to believe

We almost fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well known is this: Never go for a no lynch on the first day! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

this is also apparent in 76, then there is this little outburst

You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fucked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to fuckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

no one actually picked you up for it t the time but it seems relevant now as it is overly aggressive when taken into comparison with what was said. Then there is the flip flop responses to people and the on off buddying that is going on, and general fluff, but no real scum hunting. It is also very obvious you are being selective. there is a group of players that you are subtly asking questions about that group is primarily Dessew, DDP and now me.

I have a theory, as I know my alignment then I am going to guess that Dessew and DDP are town, and you are not. I am also now leaning towards the conclusion that notscience knows this also, as what interaction there is between you is looking staged to me:

In post 114, notscience wrote:
HC, why the need for an apology?

What are you asking about specifically? If you are referring to the no-lynch, I back tracked and saw that you posted that you didn't like no-lynch, and that was one of my main reasons for placing a vote on you. Having inserted foot into mouth, I apologized for accusing you of wanting the no-lynch.

Also notscience, in reviewing the posts I saw in your own answers to your questions you posted that you did not like a no lynch, so that is my bad on accusing you of going for the no lynch.

and while you did vote him at one stage, which is in fact your first vote and a possible subconscious recognition of a buddy, as I understand it, but while not a scumtell, a thing that newbie scum tend to do. It is also noteworthy that you do qualify that its a temporary vote

I am very new to forum posting stuff, so hopefully this turns out all right...

Vote: notscience

I agree he has been posting frequently while saying very little. For now, I am going to vote for him. I was just waiting to see what developed bandwagon-wise, etc.

which is distancing IMO. and this is such a scummy post

Sorry Feel It

Let's backtrack and look at who he was suspecting, now that we know he was townie.

VOTE: HopefullyCynical

[Smudger]

Everyone has a reputation in this game, being an IC generally means you're afforded more respect from the new players whether it's warranted or not. Yours was the sort of play I'd make to damage someone's credibility so that the other players would be less likely to listen to them.

I disagree, I stated what I saw and believed, if you feel that your reputation has been tarnished then please do point out where and then maybe I can explain it to you as I do not see any disrespect of oyur position as an IC in this game. In addition whether you are an IC or not you can still be scum, That said based on my current thoughts I am leaning town on you. see previous post

[Smudger]

You accuse me of gunning for mvm, which I did. What you neglect to mention is that notscience was the one who first pointed out mvm's absence and I joined the bandwagon. See post (114) on page 5.

I think when you count the number 104 comes before the number 114... so you are lying now?

[Smudger]

You accuse me of gunning for mvm, which I did.

and that you were gunning hard for Feel It.

the difference is what exactly?

[Smudger]

you've backed him up on almost every account, including this one.

do just say it show me where, if I was gunning after feel it sooo hard, why would I even glance at you? again a contradiction...

[Smudger]

Leaning towards the conclusion that you and notscience have decided to off me next is more like it.

In part this is true, I am looking to lynch you, you will have to ask notscience in the QT what his intentions are....

[Smudger]

but I am going to place a vote on either you or notscience.

go for it..

[Smudger]

you've backed him up on almost every account, including this one.

dont

just say it show me where, if I was gunning after

Feel It

sooo hard, why would I even glance at you? again a contradiction...

fixed

[Smudger]

I never said there was a difference. The only thing is that you were after Feel It for a long time, as far back as post 100. As for the lynch on mvm, just because I said that we should lynch doesn't mean that I was the first one to imply it. notscience in post 114 says that I sheeped him, which means he went for mvm first.

I already provided an instance of you and him buddying up in post 92. Waaaay back in the beginning of the game, when Dessew and notscience had a debate that basically amounted to nothing, whose side were you on? notsciences. See post 49.

As for your post 283, of course you wouldn't look at me before. That was because Feel It was still alive. Now you are free to come for me, like you are. Unless I misread your post.

This is easily the most aggressive you have been all game as well, you practically pounced on me as soon as notscience pointed out a potential scumtell, whereas before you didn't even mention me.

your responses since the beginning of D2 have made me look at you and your ISO. Your opening D2 post was so full of fake town concern it is actually quite sad. Yes I am getting more aggressive, why?, We are moving on and it is time this game got going. IMO so far you have not said anything that would convince me otherwise. So why not address each of the points I have raised and provide a counter argument other than the negativity that you are currently spouting.

[Smudger]

OK not a problem

I never said there was a difference. The only thing is that you were after Feel It for a long time, as far back as post 100. As for the lynch on mvm, just because I said that we should lynch doesn't mean that I was the first one to imply it. notscience in post 114 says that I sheeped him, which means he went for mvm first.

you were the first to mention a lynch of mvm. where you not?, notscience merely pushed him to be active.

I already provided an instance of you and him buddying up in post 92. Waaaay back in the beginning of the game, when Dessew and notscience had a debate that basically amounted to nothing, whose side were you on? notsciences. See post 49.

which side am I taking, I actually do not see me taking sides, what I see is me expressing an opinion, one that you actually agreed with in 59, and again more so here 86after my response in 85.

As for your post 283, of course you wouldn't look at me before. That was because Feel It was still alive. Now you are free to come for me, like you are. Unless I misread your post.

this is laughable to be honest.

[Smudger]

You guys copy/pasting each other now? I get that everybody's case against you and Smudger is laughable, pathetic, etc. Do you either of you have anything actually substantial?

Are you actually reading? I believe notscience is your scum buddy and I will push for both lynches and as I see he is currently L-1 then unless he would like to make any statement to counter those thoughts then I will move my vote.

[Smudger]

278

I name you as HCs buddy, so you are reading then also?

[Smudger]

HC, okay accepted observation and therefore a slight shift in my thinking, but it could be a bus. let us see shall we.

notscience if you are going to claim or give anything in reply that would stop a hammer then please post.

[Smudger]

Z7 which way doers your scum meter read? I know it was asked b4...

[Smudger]

that s it, so now thinking someone is scummy, is scummy?

Oh and btw I have not voted you I am claiming intent intentionally so it gives you a chance to show that there is a reason not to lynch you.

[Smudger]

Which is what makes HC's and Smudger's votes all the worse

then you did not mean this?

[Smudger]

and again you are not helping here,

[Smudger]

notscience you state that I am voting you, that is a clear statement, I am not, is my reply, I am not twisting your words I am pointing out your mistake.

I have had enough of your nonsensical crap

VOTE: notscience

[Smudger]

as you wish it will be a mistake if they do.

[Smudger]

please grow up...

[Smudger]

if and when I am lynched I Flip town you will of course apologize and admit to being wrong?

[Smudger]

Dessew 336

Yes my lynch of NS was crap, but he was posting rubbish and being completed evasive, and I had had enough of his interaction to be honest. Hindsight is a good thing and yes it was hasty.

with regard to your other observations if you would care to elaborate. I find aspects of HCs play questionable and so this is what I have pointed out, as for misreps etc again please point them out and then maybe I can explain.

As for your other comments here:

I have just reread my previous post (man, I've got a lot of time), I meant that killing DDDP was probably PR-hunting, if it wasn't, Smudger fits, although it's not much more than nothing imho.

I was wondering who would mention this first and thank you for confirming something that was in my mind as I read your post #336.

The NK of DDDP fits what you are suggesting at the end of your post #337. first you fish for a PR, noteworthy, then you suggest that I could be the person who offed DDDP. Well sure, it fits that after my quick lynch and then DDPs comment that attention would turn to me once DDDP was NK'd. therefore would it not be highly probably the scum worked this one out and decide on this as a strategy going into today?

and I would like to comment on your post #336, as you mention there also that I am possibly responsible for the NK. why are you trying to fit me up? You have made statements about my play and have not backed that up in any way shape or form, you hint that I am playing hard to read, which is complete crap. Then you criticize me for the way I post, what has that anything to do with being scum. Dessew my attention is turning away from HC and looking at you now, as your last posts smell,

[Smudger]

I have explained myself, what more can I say, he was annoying to the nth degree, he refused to give any reason why he should not be lynched and I gave fair warning, I do not retreat unless I am given fair response, it is as simple as that, If you want to threaten me then go ahead, to assume I am scum because I hammered someone is completely wrong.

with regard to your rather weak observation concerning OMGUSing Dessew, I mean what I say, it is what I am seeing and reading, should I sit quietly by while I get set up? no I will not.

finally coming from you, a person who's alignment has come into question from others this is very rich, and I would say an opportune way of shifting the spotlight.

Let us take a hypothetical line of thought, If I had not hammered who do you think would have been lynched in all probability, based on what was going on prior to the lead up tot the Hammer?

[Smudger]

Smudger, you seem surprised that people are questioning what you did as possibly being scummy. The fact is that there is no town focused reason to do what you did, even you were a cop with a guilty on notscience it is still anti town to quick hammer like that.......and obviously we know that wasn't the case.

And what spotlight am I shifting away?

Hello pot, I would like to introduce you to a kettle.

I am not surprised that I am being questioned I expected itand I think you will find I have already stated that the lynch was wrong,

Yes my lynch of NS was crap,

but it is not a reason to lynch someone just because they hammer a mislynch is it? I did not build the wagon I did not put him at L-1, you all did, so it takes more than one person to lynch someone. As I said I gave fair warning, if anyone had doubts then they should have removed their votes, in fact that would probably be a good place to start, which is what I was intimating at with my hypothetical question. look at the activity prior to the lynch and the order of the votes also who was posting at the time of the lynch, who could have removed their vote if they had wanted to if the had doubts and are truely town, because one thing is for sure, scum would not have removed their votes.

with regards to spotlights, you ave had a constant stream of votes on you all game, DDP, mvm and Dessew, 2 of those are no loneg with us. this is what I mean with regard to shifting spotlights

[Smudger]

Dessew you mentioned PR hunting 3 times across 2 posts, why do you find it necessary to repeat yourself?

[Smudger]

About the misreps: the most obvious is your comment on HC'c Princess Bride reference,

I don't recall making any direct comment on that?

[Smudger]

even you were a cop with a guilty on notscience it is still anti town to quick hammer like that

I just noticed this, now this is very interesting and I missed it at first, why cop?

[Smudger]

Dessew if that is a quote or reference to "princess bride" then that is new to me. I am a 50 year old man and have absolutely no idea about the reference. What I was alluding to was the fact that HC stated no experience but then says "we almost fell victim to one of the classic blunders.... If I have misread that then I will remove that from my observations.

[Smudger]

I have a strong feeling Dessew is town based on something he said back in D1 I think regarding a possible L-1 on myself. that coupled with his overall play, or it is very good camouflage, unless of course you are an Alt, you are not are you Dessew?

I have also been looking for breadcrumbs and can't find any.....

[Smudger]

Smudge, care to link us to what you are talking about in regards to Dessew.

Also, are you trying to figure out pr's? I say unless there is a cop with at least one guilty then you shouldn't go outing anybody. Though I could see a mass claim working here, if Z7 was not vla for awhile though.

I wanted to vote for Smudger but then he would've been on L-1 so I choose notscience because his first vote wasn't sympathetic to me.

you could say your "cop" statement made me think and thus my breadcrumb search. So a mass claim would work IMO as I have a very good idea what row/column we are using.

[Smudger]

I'm not an alt, they aren't even allowed to play in newbie games.
Massclaim can work, if there were two PRs, we would have at leat one confirmed townie (the one that has no counterclaim), it's worth the risk. However, we should try to figure out who's scum without claims, if there's no success this week, we still have the next week when Z7 isn't going to be V/LA.
Looking for breadcrumbs is a good idea, I don't get what your problem is FuDuzn. Smudger didn't say that he's going to post all the breadcrumbs he will have found.
What's up with HC, he hasn't posted for like a day.

I am 99% sure I am right, I think we should popcorn claim.

[Smudger]

a popcorn claim is that one persons starts and claims their role. then names the next person to do so until all have gone.

I have my suspicions of two people right now, and the claim will help me to know if I am right or not. So forgive me that I do not reveal what my suspicions are just yet, but it goes back to the breadcrumb search I went on.

Also Smudger, what do you think of Z7?

[Smudger]

if there were two PRs,

thank you

[Smudger]

sorry pressed the submit instead of review, what that previous post of mine should say is Dessew why 2 PRs if you could explain, thank you?

[Smudger]

Hmm so you do not feel a popcorn claim is the way to go, and your above post has now firmed things in my mind. I think I see what is happening here and why wait until Monday?

[Smudger]

VLA till Sunday guys,

[Smudger]

OK back now and an interesting conversation since I was away. first and foremost someone said, I think FuDuzn, that a popcorn vote would not work, well from what I know it would. someone goes first claims then names the next person to claim and so on, thus Z7, who I thin you intimated would go last, would not necessarily be last.

About the PRs: the more scum knows about them, the better falseclaim they can give us.

yes agreed but we are at a stage now where it is an option to consider a claim. Point is I know for a fact which setup we have to within a 99% surety margin. That is based on what I have found or not found in the way of breadcrumbs in this game to date.

Now for those who feel I am scum please elaborate why you feel that way,

I understand FuDuzn's rather weak explanation of his reasons but then he is on my quickly developing list of possible scum anyway so his opinion really at this moment in time is of no interest to me. this in particular is interesting

(also strong scum vibes from notscience which I guess influenced my town read)

that statement is scummy

Also, I just realized that when I asked Smudger's thoughts specifically on Z7 he didn't answer. See post 360.

I reserved the right to answer you in time, I did not refuse to answer you, my read on Z7 is dependent on the popcorn claim and if it happens, but as you are obviously pushing for it,tbh I am in two minds between him and you, one of you is scum the other is town.

so my reads

Dessew - Town
HC @ Z7 - one is scum the other is town.
Fuduzn - Scum.

[Smudger]

And how is 369 scummy? I explained why part of my town read on HC was the interactions with what I thought was scum notscience, it wasn't wholly dependant on that and the impressin I got from HC after that back and forth was town.

within the context that it appears it stood out as a scummy statement to make, that is how it struck me.

[Smudger]

Smudger, the only thing I don't really get is why you are withholding information. If we have a 99% win chance, you should share it. I guess I don't understand what we stand to gain by you withholding it.

I am not saying we have a 99% chance of winning I am saying I am 99% sure what set up we are playing, and so this

He's withholding it, because I've asked him to, I guess. Our schedule should be: 1. Z7 posts. 2. Massclaim. 3. If massclaim isn't enough, Smudger (and everyone else) tells us their findings (with earlier posts as evidences, of course.) If somebody told something noteworthy about PRs before the massclaim, that would help scum (it's pretty simple imho).

is exactly correct,

We should discuss who's going to start the massclaim. I suggest FuDuzn or Z7.

I agree with those choices Dessew, but I'd like to hear your thoughts as why. And just to clarify, is a massclaim the same as a popcorn claim?

As for a mass claim and popcorn claim, yes they are the same, but a popcorn claim actually controls the order the claims are made in, thus helping to narrow down the fake claims. As I am confident that the set up is the one I think it is, if we get a claim outside of that set up I can counter it, but it comes back to those among you who are town trusting me, but that is a far push to achieve at this time based on the fact that some are finding me scummy. So basically it all goes pear shaped if I claim 1st 2nd or 3rd, as this allows fake claims to be made but I can only hope you trust me, to allow that to happen.

[Smudger]

oh that post is wrong, the middle quote should look like this

He's withholding it, because I've asked him to, I guess. Our schedule should be: 1. Z7 posts. 2. Massclaim. 3. If massclaim isn't enough, Smudger (and everyone else) tells us their findings (with earlier posts as evidences, of course.) If somebody told something noteworthy about PRs before the massclaim, that would help scum (it's pretty simple imho).

We should discuss who's going to start the massclaim. I suggest FuDuzn or Z7.

is exactly correct

[Smudger]

HC for example you agree to go first you simply post "I am XXXXXXXX" then (e.g) "Z7"

the next post must be from Z7 he posts "I am XXXXXXXX" then (e.g) "Smudger"

and so on. then we look at what we have... for example Z7 states "I am a Cop", we ask for his actions and breadcrumbs, and so on.. If there is a counter claim then that is interesting also as it comes back to us all having to make a decision based on the discussion. The point is there is a series of posts where everyone claims and there should be no discussion on those until everyone has posted.

that is the way I understand it anyway, if anyone wants to correct me please do.

[Smudger]

I think the either to start would be good as they seem either together or separately feature in peoples suspicions, the point is once we start there is no posting until everyone has claimed. so if Z7 does not come back soon, even though he said he would yesterday then we should start.

[Smudger]

I think

that Z7 or Fuduzn

to start would be good as they seem either together or separately feature in peoples suspicions, the point is once we start there is no posting until everyone has claimed. so if Z7 does not come back soon, even though he said he would yesterday then we should start with FuDuzn.

Fixed

[Smudger]

I am a Vanilla Town 1 shot bullet Proof

Dessew next

[Smudger]

HC please claim.

[Smudger]

## vote Dessew

Basically this is now a case of who is telling the truth and who to believe. I will make one statement on this situation and will then take questions.

I proposed the popcorn claim as I have nothing to hide and was adamant that it would help identify scum. I know for a fact that there is no tracker in this game as I could find no breadcrumbs that would indicate who the tracker is. So I was sure that we had column A, Bullet Proof, Town Jail Keeper and Role Blocker. At no time during the discussion regarding a popcorn claim does Dessew make any similar statement, in fact you will recall he insisted that I did not reveal anymore detail. In light of what has happened during the claims ask yourselves why that might be the case? In my mind it is that as scum he had a good idea what column or row was operating but did not know the town roles, and could only guess. My claiming before him allowed him to fake his claim.

Now I also take you back to when FuDuzn mentioned Cop and I questioned him on it, at the time after his answer I stopped pursuing it as I had a thought regarding this. look at the matrix where does Role Blocker and Cop sit? Role blocker sits in column A row 2, as does Cop. Scum would be thinking the possible roles they had to contend with were Cop, Doc or Jailer, depending on the row or column.

Now I am the Bullet proof VT, and that role sits in column A row 3, so I know as town I should go look for evidence (breadcrumbs) of a tracker or jail keeper. I saw none, which lead me to believe that HC held one of those roles. Primarily because he is new and keeps asking questions, my thought process was that he probably does not understand the practice of breadcrumbing.

I will also now direct you to Fuduzn and Dessews interaction and in particular the lead up to the popcorn claim and in particular 399 from Dessew, he pushes for FuDuzn to go first. FuDuzn went second and asked me to go next, probably knowing I would pick Dessew as he was, until his fake claim, my strongest Town read. So yes I am saying that the scum team is Dessew and Fuduzn, and their strategy worked particularly well for them.

It was their intention to ensure I went before Dessew, based on my read of him and the fact he has played the game in a particular "town" way. Thus regardless of what role I claimed they would counter with a fake claim from Dessew. I think though they were surprised when I said bullet proof town, which I might add is still current as no one has tried to kill me yet.

That is my statement and I will now take questions.

I am Vanilla Town with one shot bullet proof

[Smudger]

@ HC could you please give us your night actions and why?

[Smudger]

So you knew that there were a jk because there were no tracker-breadcrumbs and that HC was jk because there were no jk-breadcrumbs...

I made a reasonably informed guess based on what I know of the game and, as stated, I knew my role and therefore had a good idea of what column or row we were using, as I could not find any breadcrumbs of a tracker I surmised that we probably had a JK in operation. This was furthered strengthened by the fact that HC was always asking questions about game mechanics etc and I believed that he has no idea about what breadcrumbing is. So as part of my thought process it made sense to me that HC was the other town PR, and more than likely the Jail keeper, as had, he been the tracker I feel even he would have said something in thread.

HC do you understand what breadcrumbing is, if you don't or have only just looked it up after it was mentioned in post please say so? If you do could you explain where any of your breadcrumbs are?

[Smudger]

Dessew please explain why you made no mention of your thoughts, or possible thoughts regarding set usp when I first began to talk about popcorn claims and the fact I was 99% sure of what set up we were using?

[Smudger]

Why are you implicating me here Smudge? Dessew wanted me or Z7 to go first, why not mention Z7? And I chose you after me since in popcorning you choose who your biggest scumread is, basically everything you are saying can be applied to Z7 as well(yes I am saying Z7 is scum with whovever is lying). I think you definitely thought this out, but this is everything scum can do to try to find pr's as well(including searching for breadcrumbs, which is something I avoid doing as a pr for this very reason).

I want to hear from Dessew.

because I believe you are Dessew's scum buddy that is why.

[Smudger]

So you're basically telling us that the fairy wispered you that we've got a jk.
I don't get why it is important if HC knows what breadcrumbs are. He's the jk, anyway.
I thought you would ask me something I hadn't explained, like #399 (btw, FuDuzn seemed to be trying to delay the massclaim in #398.)

its called reasoning based on information available at the time and what you can see or not see. It is important that HC confirms or denies knowledge of bread crumbing as it establishes part of my theory, a theory which is correct.

[Smudger]

and Dessew you missed my question entirely, well dodged, my question is very clear to me

Dessew please explain why you made

no mention of your thoughts, or possible thoughts regarding set usp

when I first began to talk about popcorn claims and the fact I was 99% sure of what set up we were using?

usp = ups

all you have done is quote some rather wishy washy posts, that actually make no reference to setups. As the bullet proof VT I was sure of where we were.

Hypothetically

had I been in your position and someone had started to say the things I was saying I would have not sat there quietly but would have pushed them on it to establish if what I would have been thinking, and was in fact thinking, at that time matched the other persons line of thought. The fact again that HC was not aware of popcorn claims and did not ask relevant questions, strengthened my view that the other town PR was with HC.

Anyway the fact of the matter is Dessew that you asked me to be quite, which now in hindsight makes sense as I know you are scum.

[Smudger]

PRs are part of the set up. You have missed the point again, or more aptly are evading it. If you are the VT bullet proof, which you are not, why did you not see the possible set ups and allude to the fact you Had an idea about what set up we are in. As for known if there was a jailkeeper, it was an educated guess based on information at hand. As I have already stated. If you are implying that I had known because I am not town then that is complete rubbish, The only power role that Mafia have is role blocker that role is a nlocking tole not an investigative rolle, So is it you or FuDuzn?

As for HC it would be good to know who he jailed and why, and also if he knew about breadcrumb, all well and good if he did and can show us his. But to be honest it is not important, it's his opinion and vote that matters so I am not going to push him on it, if he wishes to ask questions I welcome them and will answer. I am not going to put any more pressure on him from this point forward.

[Smudger]

Am on my phone so appogies for bad spelling above

[Smudger]

Dessew is that really best you can do in all honesty, that smacks of desperation in my mind. I am attempting to be civil about the fact that tou are a liar and you take a cheap shot like that? i have said all I want to say know on tjis subject let us allow the other players time to make up their minds and vote, it comes down to you or I to be lynched to decide this game. If you are lynched then town win, if I am lynched then scum win. I expect FuDuzn to vote for me pretty soon which then leaves it up to HC and Z7 to decide who they will believe, you or I.

If however one of those two were to vote for me before FuDuzn then I expect him to hammer me for the scum win. You know I am right, you know you are a Liar, I know this has been a great game, good luck.

[Smudger]

Then.we wait. I have made my statement and answered all questions. Dessew has not provided an answer to my question by evasion , and as FuDuzn has stated, attempted to discredit me. There are 3 of you to vote it is up to you now. There is nothing more I can say IMO other than continue to answer questions I will not be drawn into mudslinging though as that will not help my two remaining town team mates make their own decision.

[Smudger]

Dessew in answer to your

you are the one who isn't answering the questions: what more would a newbie tracker do than a newbie jk?

was here (see the bolded part)

This was furthered strengthened by the fact that HC was always asking questions about game mechanics etc and I believed that he has no idea about what breadcrumbing is. So as part of my thought process it made sense to me that HC was the other town PR,

and more than likely the Jail keeper, as had, he been the tracker I feel even he would have said something in thread.

[Smudger]

Holy page long posts, Batman. Can we get a tl;dr version of that?

Dessew, how come you didn't really participate like this earlier? This is easily the most active you've been all game, and most of it seems reactionary to Smudger's claims.

totally agree, in fact I was about to say the exact same thing.

[Smudger]

@mod

I am going to be away for a while on vacation and will have limited access but will definitely stay in touch with the game, actually quite a long haul this year (25 July) Dubai - NY - Florida - Vegas - Dubai. (13th August)

[Smudger]

as a newbie tracker you send your PM to the Mod and get back so and so1 went to see so and so2.

that night so and so2 gets NK'd

what do you think a newbie tracker would do, keep it quite or post in thread? I think I no what he or she would do, it really is a no brainier TBH.




as for

So you don't like when I post content with details.

I am supporting what is being said by HC, you have posted more today than you have all game, and it is in response to my claim, but then if you had an issue with the statement then why go to the lengths you did in reaction to the observation by HC and my supporting that observation and say this?:

On D1 I wanted to participate more, I even made a few summary posts etc., but there were two lurkers, and activity was low over all imo. I was V/LA on D2, I could make only one post. I think I've been fairly active on D3. I had no reason to make a post about two certain players interactions in this depth before because there were no obvious slips. I think it's more useful than a "You're a liar!/No, I'm not, you are!" debate.

[Smudger]

as for scum hunting, I do it a certain way, I look at what is being said if I think a comment has to be made or a question asked I do, if the question has already been asked or I generally accept what is transgressing in the thread then I read, I know it is classed as lurking but that is the nature of the person I am, I find it hard to enter a discussion if 1. I agree with what is being said, or 2 the conversation I feel is not relevant. I get going when I feel passionately about something as I do now, I know I can win this game for town, you know it too, that is why you are fighting so you can meet your win condition, which for you this game is a scum win. I believe I have identified your partner correctly if not then Z7 is doing a good job at keeping me sweet. bottom line is I see HC having to decide ultimately who is placed on L-1, which is probably a daunting prospect for him, in particular after his post 428.

BTW HC you have not played badly at all, in thread you have played a really good game, you made it to end game so don't feel bad about your role, you live and learn.

[Smudger]

I don't get where this comes from, but okay.

sorry misunderstood this

I just think notscience is trying to look very active and to pass an image of a scum hunter.

would you say his posts do not contain enough content to pass as scum hunting then? If so what about yourself?

It was from #161, sorry.[/quote]

[Smudger]

Of course he's the one who has to decide. Fu&Z7 are basically in the same situation as you and I.

I suppose, but we have clear indication what one of them maybe thinking at this moment in time with regards to Z7, FuDuzn is obviously peeved that I have FoS'd him as your buddy, but I expect him to vote for me he has no real choice other than a no vote as your buddy

[Smudger]

Where did I lie?

I'm the bulletproof.

HC next.

[Smudger]

The tracker can track only one player at a time,

agreed but I think you will understand the point I am making when you see this

VOTE: notscience
I don't mind voting for either notscience or Smudger at this point, as I think both of them are scum.

this was D2 before I hammered. had he been the tracker he would have tracked me N2 or one of the people he thought were my scum buddies

(this from early D3)

At the moment, I think the potential scum teams are Smudger/Z7, FuDuzn/Smudger, Smudger being in both of my theoretical teams.

so he may have seen who carried out the N2 NK on DDP

then if he had, and yes it is all open to debate, this could have happened

as a newbie tracker you send your PM to the Mod and get back so and so1 went to see so and so2.

that night so and so2 gets NK'd

what do you think a newbie tracker would do, keep it quite or post in thread? I think I no what he or she would do, it really is a no brainier TBH.

[Smudger]

Z7, FuDuzn and HC do you have any questions for me?

[Smudger]

FuDuzn nice job proving my thoughts regarding your are correct. I would also like to remind you of who my top town pick was pror to the claims. Dessew. HC was a suspect if mine for a while but I changed that line of thought some time ago. Here in fact.

HC, okay accepted observation and therefore a slight shift in my thinking, but it could be a bus. let us see shall we.

notscience if you are going to claim or give anything in reply that would stop a hammer then please post.

[Smudger]

Dessew regarding the NK I did say it was debatable, give it up please you are clutching at straws. The arguments have been made the cases are presented. Let us wait shall we and see what HC decides,

[Smudger]

FuDuzn, I'd also like to point out that I thought Smudger was scum for a while as well, it wasn't like notscience where he was just riding me all game. See Day 2.

Smudger, between FuDuzn and Z7, who do you think is scum? Sorry if you posted it earlier and I didn't notice or recall it.

I have just read a lot of WIFPM from both Dessew and Fu. HC These 2 are the scum team it stands to reason that they are if you understand the statements I have made and the way in which I have applied logic to it.

If you read the last page of posts, where both Fu and Dessew are posting, at first read it would appear that they are posting independently. But they are not, it is very obvious that this is a coordinated attempt to coerce you to lynch me. And as you have said and I have said, at one point we both suspected each other as scum, that is the nature of this game. You have the unenviable task of the final vote, it will either win or lose the game for town, you know that, as does everyone, you need to vote where you think the vote should go, it is only a game after all and regardless of where you vote, you have played very well.

[Smudger]

Lol WIFOM NOT WIFOM

[Smudger]

Nicely played, if I am wrong then so be it. But I have to now ask myself why HC was the NK, and if he actually did Jail FU. If he did then it means only one thing, that Z7 is the scum buddy to Dessew. But if that is the case why did FU vote for me last time around and not hammer Dessew, if he was trying to make a point because I believed he was scum then it would be a foolish thing to do at this stage.

Therefore I am going to have to think this through

[Smudger]

Just read the small print.

VOTE: Fuduzn

GG

[Smudger]

Thanks everyone I enjoyed this

[Smudger]

Guys What can I say I play scummy, remember that next time we meet