Newbie 1393 Game Over

[Dessew]

Ahoi!

VOTE: notscience

[Dessew]

I completely forgot to mention that I use UTC+1 (UTC+2 now, because it's summer). So at least three of us use non-American time (Z7-852 UTC+3 now, Smudger UTC+4)

[Dessew]

Yo DDP, loving that avatar of yours

Lets get some RQS going (Random Question Stage)

1)(To those who haven't stated so) What is your time zone?
2) Have you ever played Mafia before? If so, on what medium and how many games? (irl, another forum, etc)
3) Do you prefer to play as town or scum?
4) What would your feelings be on a no-lynch?

2) I have played irl but those games have been decided at night, most of them haven't even had VTs.
3) In my rl games I prefer scum.
4) No no-lynch first day, that's all what I'm sure about.

[Dessew]

I thought there would be new posts when I woke up.
Anyway, all we have are some RQS and a wagon on Smudger he doesn't really care about.
notscience voted for DDDP because he's the IC. His vote might be random but maybe he's just afraid of the IC, either because he's scum and DDDP isn't or because he's town and thinks that it's better to have a dead IC than to have scum IC.
FuDuzn joined the wagon, or he's also editing every one-line post for three minutes and his vote is random or the IC-thing. At leat he didn't write that voting for the IC is the best.
FI made a random vote.
mvm joined the Smudger-wagon.
notscience hopped in the Smudger-wagon.
Smudger hardly react to the wagon and places his vote on FI, because he started the wagon, I guess, although it was just a random vote.
I wanted to vote for Smudger but then he would've been on L-1 so I choose notscience because his first vote wasn't sympathetic to me. This vote is not doing anything here so
VOTE: UNVOTE
Z7-numbers hasn't done anything yet, I hope he will contribute a lot to the game but now he has nothing to comment on. He voted for DDDP.
DDDP explained what IC's do and then voted for FuDuzn, random or an answer to the wagon on him.
notscience started some RQS, I have nothing to say about it, yet.

VOTE: VOTE:DDDP, maybe we get some interesting results.

[Dessew]

There hasn't been enough activity to have complete reads. Your actions have been the most pro-town so far because you wanted to start discussions a few times (it's the third attempt). Smudger hasn't given a decent answer to his wagon, it really annoys me. But so far there have been no scummy nor townish behaviour. (Or I'm just lame)

[Dessew]

Because you have been the most active player and it is pro-town imho. Yet, this is the first real discussion of the game, all we have had are random votes, random questions and a wgon with a very stupid outcome.

[Dessew]

1) If we don't have activity, there won't be any content. Even if your post didn't have any content, it does tell a lot about you, give information to us thus it's pro-town.
2) I think you may be scum but your actions are helping us so your behaviour is pro-town right now. We have only 35 posts so posting IS pro-town, although it's not a towntell.

[Dessew]

It's something like the one-eyed among the blind.

[Dessew]

It just means that there haven't really been pro-town behaviour in this game.

[Dessew]

I think I see the problem. I used these words in these meanings:
pro-town: somewhat useful for the town. For example when there is low activity, posting helps town ergo it's pro-town.
townish: seems to be townie (not scum).
I agree that mostly they mean the same but with so few posts it's different now imo. If you're scum there can be several reasons why you want to post while there's no activity but you are helping town because we get some information.

[Dessew]

Since mafiosi already know about one another and only they and PRs have any 'extra' information, high activity is useful to town. (You know, uninformed majority - informed minority)

[Dessew]

Thank you, that's all what I wanted from you. You finally made a post that can be discussed, not just a grayish 'how could you all?'.

That said though, it would is again have to be judge against each of you and your experience, therefore IMO Desew looks the more suspicious primarily because of the backtracking, but this could be attributed to a lack of experience?

What backtracking?

Have you even read every post on page 2, Smudger?

[Dessew]

Yay, discussion!

Smudger:

Whatever, I don't get it.

FI:

It's true that my 'debate' with notscience didn't have much content, otoh you've made a case based on it so it wasn't entirely pointless. I'm leaning town on you but I don't agree with yout case.

mvm

hasn't done anything yet, FI had already made a serious vote before he posted that he wasn't going to change his random vote because lol. He's on V/LA unfortunetaly but

FoS:mvm

because of lurking.

HC:

Your vote does seem to be sheeping. Please post your reads on the others because right now I have no idea about your alignment.

Z7-852:

You have been on V/LA on the weekend, I don't have any read on you yet.

notscience:

In #68 you call FI scum then #73 you give him town credit. Explain yourself! I'm not voting you because I can think of a validish answer but until then

IGMEOY

DDDP:

Oookay... Then my vote doesn't doing anywhere right now and you are going to do something funny anyway, I hope. But until then

IGMEOY

UNVOTE

Fu:

I don't really get this sheeping thing, notscience's reasons seem valid. What did you expect, anyway? You make HC place his vote and then if somebody makes a comment about it then he's sheeping? It's just strange.
VOTE: FuDuzn

[Dessew]

Smudger:

I said the same thing all the time, that posting helps town but it's not a towntell a) because scum has to post, too, not so as to be an obvious scumtell b) because of the wifom HC's last post is about. I have nothing else to say about it.

Btw, HC is probably town, he's too carefree to be scum. (Just look at the last two posts)

[Dessew]

Disagree, his posting has looked more like fluff than useful content.

Last time Z7-852 posted, there wasn't much going so he couldn't provide much content.

Scummy move from

Feel It

to ask (#46) why we don't want to put people to L-1 in random voting phase. Might not be dangerous in other games but in newbie games a new player might hammer recardless of aliagment. This could mess up the whole game.

Scummometer (tm)
HopefullyCynical = Smudger = Feel It = Dessew = mvmafia = FuDuzn = Z7-852 = notscience = Debonair Danny DiPietro

This whole scummometer-thing seems to have a malfunction. He says that IF made a scummy move, yet he is just as scummy as everyone else. Maybe it's a typo or he just copy/pasted but it still bothers me a bit.

[Dessew]

I don't see why would FI be the scummiest player right now, is it only because of his comment on putting people on L-1 in RVS? His answer to Smudger's post is rather an overreaction and made an OMGUS-vote, which is terrible but his case against notscience seemed to be genuine, although it wasn't a good case imo.

mvm has a lot to explain, it is strange that he is posting in a game which FI participates in, yet is lurking in this game. I basicly agree with Z7, we've still got plenty of time, no need to hurry. He hasn't even changed his random vote, though.

I don't know what to say about DDDP, the way he tried to get votes to the Z7-wagon is funny but maybe it's not even worth noting.

Z7: no reaction to FI's vote? I thought you would pay more attention to him since he's the scummiest of us according to you.

FuDuzn hasn't reacted to my vote yet, he hasn't even posted for 2 days. He's also been posting in other threads, one of them has Z7 as a player.
(btw, Fu, is Z7 "sheeping" now because he voted mvm?)

[Dessew]

notscience, why is your vote still on HC. Do you find him scummy?

I don't know what to say about DDDP, the way he tried to get votes to the Z7-wagon is funny but maybe it's not even worth noting.

You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fucked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to fuckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

Sorry, I sould have used another word. I'm going to the corner to think about what I've done. Frankly, I have no idea what to think about you, neither your alignment nor your behaviour. You seem to be quite hostile toward me and I don't really get why, I may have insulted you, although I didn't intend to. If this is the case, I want to apologize: I'm truly sorry.
(#115 did make me laugh)

[Dessew]

I don't find him town, so atm he's kinda in the nether for me. A bit too much fluff from him though.

IMHO, it's actually the fluff that seems to be townish. Well, not the fluff itself but the way he posts it. When he makes double posts, there's like 5 minutes between them, and the second ones look spontaneous (the posts' contents themselves don't really help us, though, they are self-corrections and pointing out rather obvious things). I think if he was scum, he wouldn't do this this often, he would be much more careful and would think over what he's going to post. Of course, wifom, he could do it on purpose but it just fits so well.

[Dessew]

Dessew, I am trying to treat this like a dialogue. Often times I finish a post and then think of something else to say (or muck up a quote) and add it on. It's much more difficult doing that here because in person it would flow better.

That's what I'm saying. I think scum would stop to think and read over the previous posts, not just post something and then post again if something pops into his mind because he could make an obvious slip or at least get him unwanted attention. You post quite carefreely and you're a new player (lack of experience), yet you haven't made any obvious scumslip. You are either genius or town (I mean if it's true that you have no former experience in forum-mafia)

[Dessew]

A couple things here Z7, MVM and I were both lurky in this game at the same time and MVM even said that he was vla.....so why does his lurking seem scummier than my lurking? and if you don't want him lynched then why do you want to start a wagon on him? And why not then start a wagon on one of the two people you have listed as scummier on your scumometer? Could it have something to do with that you don't think you could get them mislynched, so easier to go for the lurker? And I said I would post by today, and I am. I am never a big fan of lynch all lurkers, bad scum hunting strategy imo. But this goes beyond that, and basically admit that MVM isn't actually scummy.......just easier to make it seem like he is.

Here's where you state that Z7 was lurking.

mvm's lurking is worse than yours. Either he voted you because you were lurking, that's just lol, or he made a prod-vote, then he hasn't made a serious vote yet. Neither of them is townish at all. He hasn't even posted reads. My top townread is HC, the reasoning is similar to yours about FI. notscience's anger seems to be genuine (he even made a screw-up in #68 and #73). Z7 has taken part in the game, he posted his reads, his opinions and doesn't look scummy imo. The fact that he isn't voting FI is interesting but not a scumtell. Smudger made a post that he won't be active on the weekend. I agree that he should vote and yes, he's being cautious. FI's reactions are mixed, it's hard to get anything about them. DDDP has posted only very little content. I voted you because of #69. Retrospectively, it wasn't a good case and you are still using the same reasoning as then but my vote is staying because you said that mvm is townish while he's leaning scum (mostly due to his last post)

btw, mvm doesn't really care about the votes on him so they're doing nothing there. If you want to lynch him, it can be done on Wednesday or Thursday. We sould take our time.

[Dessew]

notscience, just to clear it, Z7 started the mvm-wagon only HC joined after you.
Smudger, could you place a vote somewhere, please?

And Dessew, on my post 149 I totally did not say Z7 was lurking. That post was about how he was going after lurkers.

It kind of tricked me, my bad. Your finding mvm town is still weird, though. He even says that "notscience doesn't do nothing", then places an either prod or hypocritical vote and he only made a random vote earlier. Your reasoning must be amusing so I'd really like to read it.

[Dessew]

mvmafia:

I used these words in these meanings:

Get it?
I know you were V/LA but it lasted only till Saturday and it's Tuesday now, you had a couple of days to read this thread. Yet your reads seem to be based on early posts almost exclusively.

*Cough* Hello? I asked you something, FuDuzn, right?

I haven't seen Goodfellas yet, it looks interesting.

[Dessew]

Fu:

Well, in #150 you stated that mvm is your no. 2 townread. I asked you about your argument.

Z7:

I know it's not fair but let me guess: mvm didn't give his read about FuDuzn because there isn't enough content to have one.

[Dessew]

lol, I don't know why I adressed half of my last post to Z7.
Fu: ok, but you stated it in post 150, I'd like to hear what was townish about him before that.
I'm gonna place my vote on mvm as soon as I've read Smudger's post he promised in #210.

[Dessew]

Okay, then here comes my vote:
VOTE: mvmafia

[Dessew]

damnit... forgot to unvote
UNVOTE:
VOTE: mvmafia

[Dessew]

As Nexus said, I'll be V/LA form Monday. DDDP's fluff seems to be his playstyle, we'll see if he posts more relevant things today. My vote stays on FuDuzn, the reason is the same.
VOTE: FuDuzn

[Dessew]

Hey, guys, I'm back.
First: (Smudger,) DON'T VOTE! If you're town and you vote town, scum could hammer. It's LyLo, we have to be careful.

Smudger:

Your vote was horrible. 1. We still had a lot of time, there was no need to hurry. 2. There were 7 players alive, maybe I'm not the most relevant person in this game but we're so few on our own, I think everybody's opinion counts, and I had only one post on D2 and that regarded FuDuzn and DDDP. 3. notscience wasn't that scummy.
Your case against HC isn't valid in my opinion, there're misquotations and misreps in it. You also misrepped notscience a few times. I get the feeling that you don't read other's posts and don't write yours thoroughly enough. Don't be so hasty, it seems like you want to be difficult to follow, so you answer the post in four instead of one, nad you also do that "fixed" nonsense. Your hammering notscience is too obvious to be scumtell, but your trying to be mysterious and hard to read (not only your alignment is hard to read but your posts, too) is. Also, this hammer could be a cunning plan, we have a lot of time to figure it out.

FuDuzn:

Yes, it is still the same, since you haven't answered my question, yet. It is scummy, how you're avoiding, though. Anyway, is this question so irrelevant, that it isn't even worth posting about it? None of you said anything about it.

HC:

I'm sure you're town, my argument is basically the same, and your posts on D2 are also convincing me. If you were scum, you would deserve victory for this acting, but you are not, you're my most solid townread. Smudger tried to make a case against you, he failed, I can't say any more about it.

Z7:

Explain me this: there's a player who want to hammer the person you're voting before half of the day pasted, and you don't unvote? FuDuzn wasn't posting at that time and HC is a newbie, but you didn't unvote? I mean, you got a lot of stuff, there was an OMGUS-vote and Smudger said, he was intending to hammer. It really was a lot of stuff. I thought you were more careful, maybe the most careful among us, and yet you do this. It's out of the picture and scummy.

I can't figure out from any of the NKs, Smudger sort of fits, but the kills could have been PR-hunting (then scum sucks in this game, yet we haven't lynched any of them). About the other flips, there's nothing to say about mvm, FI didn't attack anybody except notscience and Smudger so if Smudger isn't scum, it was probably just PR-hunting (does this word exist?). Lynching notscience was a mistake, it could have been prevented...

Right now, FuDuzn and Z7 are leaning scum, HC is a strong townread, Smudger is a question mark.

[Dessew]

I have just reread my previous post (man, I've got a lot of time), I meant that killing DDDP was probably PR-hunting, if it wasn't, Smudger fits, although it's not much more than nothing imho.

[Dessew]

FuDuzn: Meh, you said that he was town, while all his posts were null or scummy before you gave your reads (before #150).

Smudger: I think it's possible that scum goes super-obvious so as to avoid lynch. Just think about it, it makes sense. About the misreps: the most obvious is your comment on HC'c Princess Bride reference, but you could look at basically any post on D2 when notscience said you were misrepping him (or twisting his words or taking something out of context, they technically mean the same thing.)
Oh, and how did I fish PR?

[Dessew]

Yes you did.

which is all well and good but your ISO would not tend to support your apparent inexperience, as when reading through it seems you are more experienced than you may be leading us to believe

We almost fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well known is this: Never go for a no lynch on the first day! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Dessew you mentioned PR hunting 3 times across 2 posts, why do you find it necessary to repeat yourself?

I was posting about the NKs and the flips over all. I think perhaps the NKs has nothing to do with the cases but scum tried to target PRs. The beginning of that paragraph didn't make sense (because I fucked up) so I made a new post. However I haven't stated anything about the PRs whatsoever.

[Dessew]

Smudger: Okay then, fair enough, although HC reacted to it in #280:

Also post 83 was simply a Princess Bride reference, don't read too much into it. And in post (132) I was (mis)quoting DDP's reference to Goodfellas, it was not an outburst. Hence my inexperience in forum-based mafia.

Z7: Yes, it is risky, but here's a post of yours earlier:

Both

Smudger

and Notscience were skeptic about Feel during D1 and Smudger even voted him twice. But I would say here that Smudger would be too obvious target and scapegoat to be a scum. This actually make Smudger a towner that before in my books.

It could've encouraged him.
About HC: he's my no 1 townread, and imho almost every time he posts he's more and more townish. Reason: He lacks experience (he says so and his posts show so, too), yet his posts seem to be übergenuine and sometimes spontaneous.

[Dessew]

I'm not an alt, they aren't even allowed to play in newbie games.
Massclaim can work, if there were two PRs, we would have at leat one confirmed townie (the one that has no counterclaim), it's worth the risk. However, we should try to figure out who's scum without claims, if there's no success this week, we still have the next week when Z7 isn't going to be V/LA.
Looking for breadcrumbs is a good idea, I don't get what your problem is FuDuzn. Smudger didn't say that he's going to post all the breadcrumbs he will have found.
What's up with HC, he hasn't posted for like a day.

[Dessew]

Sorry guys, I'm having problemswith my inernet connection, I'll post every day, but maybe just once a day.

HC: It's just to have some interactions with one another because Z7 has been complaining. Also, you hadn't really contributed in D3 (you still hasn't), perhaps you should give us your reads. I've already given mine in #336. If you want more, I can tell that right now I can think of two scum teams: Z7&FuDuzn (simply because they're scummy, Z7's play on D2 hardly resembled his play on D1, FuDuzn was avoiding to answer my question about mvm) and Z7&Smudger (because of this obvious scum thing, Smudger isn't everyone's no. 1 lynch-target because he would be too obvious to be scum, and Z7 was the first one to point it out, way before the lynch of notscience. All the flips except mvm's points to Smudger, it's too obvious, indeed, but maybe too too obvious, if you understand what I mean). However, these reads aren't solid enough, they're just something to begin with.

Smudger: I'm saying, if there WERE two PRs, after a massclaim we would have a confirmed townie (the one who don't have a cc). I'm not speculating now about the PRs, and you shouln't, either, it has any sense only we do a massclaim and everybody is here, and Z7 is V/LA until Monday. Your searching for breadcrumbs is probably useful otoh, tell us on Monday what you have.

[Dessew]

Popcorn might be the way to go, but now one of us is on V/LA, and it is complicated for me to post. I don't want scum to be able to think a lot about his claim. So please don't post any of your PR-reads yet. Maybe we can find scum without massclaim, that would be better, so let's not do it until Monday, if we don't have anything until then, we still have a week to scumhunt with massclaim. This way maybe you (all of you) should post your scumreads, we are 5 on our own, and only two of us posted their reads (if Z7's scummometer counts).

[Dessew]

False alarm, internet problems are solved (ish)!

I think that if we don't give scum our PR-reads, they can't give us propoer falseclaims, I think it's logical. Anyway, I was thinking, scum can claim in a way that there won't be any confirmed townie even if there're two PRs, I don't tell it to you now, maybe the next day, I don't want to give scum ideas.

About FuDuzn's reads. It could take further analysis (probably tomorrow). HC was scum on his list in #150, as notscience's scumbuddy, but there're different interactions on D2. I'll read it over thoroughly tomorrow.

About mvm. Here, I iso his posts before #150: (I hope I don't have to go over this one more time)

#9: screws up his random vote (he's second on the wagon), makes an awful joke, hearts us
#10: fixes vote, same joke, still hearts us
#17: HC hadn't posted yet
#62: there was a crash, probably will be V/LA, random vote stays, false information on Dubai
#127: V/LA, will post
#145: is sorry for the V/LA (and he really did post)
#146: back from V/LA, brings up things from the beginning of the game, "notscience isn't actually scumhuntingˇ, "FuDuzn hasn't posted enough, let's vote him"
It was town (no. 2 towntell) according to you, while all his very few posts were null or scummy. That's what I'm talking about.

[Dessew]

At last, a proper answer to my question!

I've reread from #150, I remembered that Fu and HC had more interaction, but it's almost nothing. You should post your reads more frequently, #369 is the first post in which FuDuzn says that HC is town (so all your "still"s in his last posts are meaningless). There's maybe one interesting thing, or two:
1. Smudger thought that notscience was the scumbuddy of HC. He initially found HC scummy, notscience was scummy because HC was. In #305 he don't think that HC is scum for sure, but still want to lynch nots. What? His hammer makes less and less sense.
2. HC's vote was pretty much the same as Smudger's (see: #306)

HC, okay accepted observation and therefore a slight shift in my thinking, but it could be a bus. let us see shall we.

notscience if you are going to claim or give anything in reply that would stop a hammer then please post.

I respect that Smudger, your post 300 caught me off guard in a good way. You are less scummy after that, and my attention is much more on notscience now.

FuDuzn: please post your reads with arguments instead of posting only whom you want to lynch.

[Dessew]

I'm saying that Smudger shouldn't post his PR findings, so when it's time to massclaim, scum's gonna have an inconvenient time. He should post his scumreads, though. FuDuzn could be bussing Z7, it's unlikely at the moment that you or Smudger would vote him, so it's quite safe, too.

[Dessew]

Z7 probably won't get lynched right away, as I mentioned in #374. But if either Z7 or FuDuzn gets lynched and the lynchee flips scum, the other one can get town credibility.

About the PRs: the more scum knows about them, the better falseclaim they can give us.

[Dessew]

Well, I have played irl a lot (although those games don't have VTs, the idea is basically the same as here), and I just love to bus (irl we don't say "bussing" but "being a dick"), sometimes I bus for the sake of bus (it's fun to play with me.) The point is that bussing can happen any time imho. Also, this bus would be really safe, it's unlikely that we all would have a solid scumread on him before Monday.

[Dessew]

Undetailed reads would be fine, too. Z7 already explained that he wanted some content from mvm before voting him, I think it was actually clever play and absolutely not scummy.

[Dessew]

Ps. I got a project call yesterday and I will be

V/LA till next Monday

. I know this sucks but summertime is little like this to me.

Nexus, Z7 is V/LA, I don't know what qualifies in this situation, but even if you did prod him, could you please give him a little more time than usually? It would mess up the game if an SE got forcereplaced while we are planning a massclaim in LyLo.

[Dessew]

He's withholding it, because I've asked him to, I guess. Our schedule should be: 1. Z7 posts. 2. Massclaim. 3. If massclaim isn't enough, Smudger (and everyone else) tells us their findings (with earlier posts as evidences, of course.) If somebody told something noteworthy about PRs before the massclaim, that would help scum (it's pretty simple imho).

We should discuss who's going to start the massclaim. I suggest FuDuzn or Z7.

[Dessew]

Yes, I think you explained it correctly, Smudger.

HC, I didn't know initially what eg. popcorn and breadcrumbs are initially, either. But there's a wiki (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Main_Page) where I looked them up. Regarding Z7 and FuDuzn: they're simply the scummiest players imo.

[Dessew]

Undetailed reads would be fine, too.

I just spotted this, I'm a moron...
Anyway,

We should wait for Z7's reads then we need to decide who will start.

Why only then? Actually, right now I think FuDuzn would be better to start than Z7, any opinions?

[Dessew]

I'm the bulletproof.

HC next.

[Dessew]

VOTE: Smudger

I know for a fact that there is no tracker in this game as I could find no breadcrumbs that would indicate who the tracker is. So I was sure that we had column A, Bullet Proof, Town Jail Keeper and Role Blocker.

Now I also take you back to when FuDuzn mentioned Cop and I questioned him on it, at the time after his answer I stopped pursuing it as I had a thought regarding this. look at the matrix where does Role Blocker and Cop sit? Role blocker sits in column A row 2, as does Cop. Scum would be thinking the possible roles they had to contend with were Cop, Doc or Jailer, depending on the row or column.

Now I am the Bullet proof VT, and that role sits in column A row 3, so I know as town I should go look for evidence (breadcrumbs) of a tracker or jail keeper. I saw none, which lead me to believe that HC held one of those roles. Primarily because he is new and keeps asking questions, my thought process was that he probably does not understand the practice of breadcrumbing.

So you knew that there were a jk because there were no tracker-breadcrumbs and that HC was jk because there were no jk-breadcrumbs...

I will also now direct you to Fuduzn and Dessews interaction and in particular the lead up to the popcorn claim and in particular 399 from Dessew, he pushes for FuDuzn to go first. FuDuzn went second and asked me to go next, probably knowing I would pick Dessew as he was, until his fake claim, my strongest Town read. So yes I am saying that the scum team is Dessew and Fuduzn, and their strategy worked particularly well for them.

It was their intention to ensure I went before Dessew, based on my read of him and the fact he has played the game in a particular "town" way. Thus regardless of what role I claimed they would counter with a fake claim from Dessew. I think though they were surprised when I said bullet proof town, which I might add is still current as no one has tried to kill me yet.

Usually the scummy players go first, so they cannot falseclaim efficiently. (according to wiki and common sense)

So you all know that one of Smudger and me is scum, just like either FuDuzn or Z7 is, too. (Or Smudger and I are scum, and there's only one PR, but that'd be ridiculous.) Either way, HC is town (toldya.) The order Smudger and I claimed doesn't really matter imo, if someone knew that there was at least 50% chance of having BP/JK (and scum did), claiming bulletproof is rather safe, you don't have to make up night actions or explain yourself much.

PEDIT: Fu: I suggested you to claim first in #399.

[Dessew]

/sigh
I've already explained it over and over again.

I don't want scum to be able to think a lot about his claim.

I think that if we don't give scum our PR-reads, they can't give us propoer falseclaims, I think it's logical.

I'm saying that Smudger shouldn't post his PR findings, so when it's time to massclaim, scum's gonna have an inconvenient time.

About the PRs: the more scum knows about them, the better falseclaim they can give us.

If somebody told something noteworthy about PRs before the massclaim, that would help scum (it's pretty simple imho).

So you're basically telling us that the fairy wispered you that we've got a jk.
I don't get why it is important if HC knows what breadcrumbs are. He's the jk, anyway.
I thought you would ask me something I hadn't explained, like #399 (btw, FuDuzn seemed to be trying to delay the massclaim in #398.)

[Dessew]

My quotes are about how we shouldn't have discussed PRs before the massclaim, I did answer your question, schluss.

About HC: okay,then let's imagine that he says no, he didn't make any breadcrumbs. Hurray, you were right. Now, let's imagine that he answers yes, he made breadcrumbs and he shows us them. Then what, he's the jk, anyway. He's our confirmed townie (tonw jailkeeper), that's all we have in both ways. I get, how you learned that HC was a PR, but you still haven't explained how could you possibly have known that he was JK.

[Dessew]

Then what question am I answering? You asked me about why I didn't want to speculate about PRs, I answered it (a lot of times), what else do you want to know? Actually, you are the one who didn't elaborate yet what the difference is between newbie JKs and newbie trackers.

HC do you understand what breadcrumbing is, if you don't or have only just looked it up after it was mentioned in post please say so? If you do could you explain where any of your breadcrumbs are?

its called reasoning based on information available at the time and what you can see or not see. It is important that HC confirms or denies knowledge of bread crumbing as it establishes part of my theory, a theory which is correct.

As for HC it would be good to know who he jailed and why, and also if he knew about breadcrumb, all well and good if he did and can show us his. But to be honest it is not important, it's his opinion and vote that matters so I am not going to push him on it, if he wishes to ask questions I welcome them and will answer. I am not going to put any more pressure on him from this point forward.

What happened to your "reasoning"?

I have had enough of your nonsensical crap

VOTE: notscience

me too

[Dessew]

Where did I lie? And you disdredit yourself, you are the one who isn't answering the questions: what more would a newbie tracker do than a newbie jk? All you're doing is asking the same alredy answered question over again.

If however one of those two were to vote for me before FuDuzn then I expect him to hammer me for the scum win.

So you think that Fu is my scumbuddy (as you've stated earlier) thus (Smudger's thinking really really hard) he'll hammer you if he can. Bravo, now you seem reasonable. Not.

There are 3 of you to vote it is up to you now.

Do you genuinely think they don't know?
You just went kamikaze (again). Since you knew that there's either jk/bp or cop/doctor, tracker would have been the safest claim for you (not explaining, it's obvious). Maybe you figured out what setup we're playing, but I think it's more likely that you wanted us to have a direct cc and you risked a bit (or thought that with cop/doctor setup you've already lost so you took your chance).

blablablablablablaDessewisscumblablablablablablaaskinganalreadyansweredquestionblablablablablawritingsomethingobviousblablablablabla

[Dessew]

Z7&Fu: shouldn't you vote one another? You know, for the same reason as Smudger and I are voting one another.
Anyway, here're your interactions with Smudger:

FuDuzn:

Notscience, how dare you leave the DDDP wagon.

I am filing that away for future reference.

ns leaved the DDDP-wagon for the Smudger-wagon, it's an interaction-like-thing in RVS.
In the meantime: FuDuzn was lurking, Smudger didn't post about it.

First, it is FuDuzn......I think it has been a conspiracy that everyone on this site spells my name wrong lol

Second, are you voting me as a prod or do you think I am scum? Or is this just a pre emptive sheeping(sounds like an oxymoron I know)?

Third, on my computer. Gonna catch up and post some thoughts.

Andddd......Go!

what a waste of effort this is.

I just think notscience is trying to look very active and to pass an image of a scum hunter.[/quote] would you say his posts do not contain enough content to pass as scum hunting then? If so what about yourself?

First, it is FuDuzn......I think it has been a conspiracy that everyone on this site spells my name wrong lol

Second, are you voting me as a prod or do you think I am scum? Or is this just a pre emptive sheeping(sounds like an oxymoron I know)?

Third, on my computer. Gonna catch up and post some thoughts.

Andddd......Go!

what a waste of effort this is.

Basically Z7 is my top scum read, followed by notscience and Cynical. DDDP and Dessew are both null to me, Dessew leading a bit more towards the scum side of null since he seems too afraid to make a mistake. I lean towards MVM being town, though admittedly it is partially because of the people who want him lynched. Feel It is my most solid town read.

and me? what about me? Feel it seems to think I am scummy so why not agree with him about me if he is your most solid town read?

but I get a 'quietly pulling the strings' vibe from him.

which means what please?

Now I like to have fun with a lot of my posting, but this was all fluff a zero content when we are clearly out of rvs. Not a fan of this but in a newbie game I wouldn't see scum being this comfortable to make a post like this.

why do people do this,” If I was scum” I would not do this? WIFOM much?

I never said 'if I was scum', just saying that in my experience playing newbie games I haven't seen a newbie player act like that as scum. Most newbies don't get that comfortable that early in a game as scum.

Also, Feel It only asked me about you(smudger) because I had inadvertenly left you out of my reads. I don't know why that would be a 'thing' to point out about Feel It.

These above actually look like they weren't scumbuddies

After a very quick iso of feel it he was riding notscience early on then switched to smudger, but he seemed a bit more concerned with just getting a lynch in then hardcore scum hunting(not a knock on him, once a flip or two occurs it does become easier for me to scum hunt as well).

Then who is the other scum if they wanted Feel it off their back?

Notscience, why do you continue to badger HC about him bringing up good analysis? It is like you are trying to discredit him because he hasn't figured out the scum team yet.
VOTE: notscience

Blatant chainsaw/WK noted.

ns had a point here.

Fu- Okay, my thing about him not having a case was bad. I looked back, and can see I've steadily been in his scumreads. He's brought up several reasons to vote me throughout, his vote is okay. While the lurking throughout day 1 was kinda bad, what he has posted is decent. Leaning town.

Seriously smudger? That is about the most anti town thing you can do, if you aren't scum then I don't know what to think.

"OMG, somebody thinks I'm town, time to act townish (I was on that wagon but who cares?)"

Smudger, between not really explaining why you quick hammered notscience(calling him annoying is no excuse) and your extremely defensive omgus-isng to Dessew understandably questioning you I think I would be confident on a vote on either you or Z7, given all that has happened I am growing confident you are scum and I am not going to go back on my first instint in regards to Z7.

I don't really see any omgus, perhaps it's bus?

Smudger, you seem surprised that people are questioning what you did as possibly being scummy. The fact is that there is no town focused reason to do what you did, even you were a cop with a guilty on notscience it is still anti town to quick hammer like that.......and obviously we know that wasn't the case.

And what spotlight am I shifting away?

Hello pot, I would like to introduce you to a kettle.

with regards to spotlights, you ave had a constant stream of votes on you all game, DDP, mvm and Dessew, 2 of those are no loneg with us. this is what I mean with regard to shifting spotlights

Did Smudger imply here that Fu and I were scum? Because it kind of contradicts this:

I have a strong feeling Dessew is town based on something he said back in D1 I think regarding a possible L-1 on myself. that coupled with his overall play, or it is very good camouflage, unless of course you are an Alt, you are not are you Dessew?

even you were a cop with a guilty on notscience it is still anti town to quick hammer like that

I just noticed this, now this is very interesting and I missed it at first, why cop?

(also strong scum vibes from notscience which I guess influenced my town read)

that statement is scummy

Making something out of nothing.

I will also now direct you to Fuduzn and Dessews interaction and in particular the lead up to the popcorn claim and in particular 399 from Dessew, he pushes for FuDuzn to go first. FuDuzn went second and asked me to go next, probably knowing I would pick Dessew as he was, until his fake claim, my strongest Town read. So yes I am saying that the scum team is Dessew and Fuduzn, and their strategy worked particularly well for them.

It was their intention to ensure I went before Dessew, based on my read of him and the fact he has played the game in a particular "town" way. Thus regardless of what role I claimed they would counter with a fake claim from Dessew. I think though they were surprised when I said bullet proof town, which I might add is still current as no one has tried to kill me yet.

I would've claimed before you only if I had started, so yeah, I certainly needed a such cunning plan. It's ensuring that if Smudger gets lynched, FuDuzn's gonna get an übertown-credibility.

I am not going to vote yet for the very reason you just stated Smudge, I don't want to choose wrong and scum swoop in for the win. I also will not quick hammer as soon as someone as soon as someone is at L-1(obviously). And tbh I am not sure where to go with my vote when it comes down to it. Smudge you are bringing up good points about knowing the setup and knowing what to do in case there are claims, but this is something scum would do as well in regards to fake claiming. Basically that whole argument doesn nothing for me in regards to proving you are town and proving Dessew is scum. On the othe hand, Desse seems like the type who would cover all his bases as a town pr so he could do the very thing youh are doing, and it seems like he is really trying to discredit you. Problem is that also isn't alignment indictive, he could just as easily be frustated townie trying to convince us idiots or a lying scum using snottiness as a weapon.

Basically, neither of you are convincing me either way right now.

Distancing or common sense.

Z7-852:

Scummometer (tm)
HopefullyCynical < Smudger < Dessew < mvmafia < FuDuzn < notscience < Debonair Danny DiPietro < Feel It

currently, no-one is standout i my mind, but that is probably as my mind is still trying to decipher what the hell you guys see that is scum and what is not. I need to really concentrate and see what I can pick up. what is somewhat annoying is the fact that the opening punches are somewhat vicious and, to be honest mostly misleading' If you want to push me then I would actually put my vote back on Feel It, as his sum contribution is what? Squat.... I would also disagree with Z7 he left himself off his list and he should be higher than me or Hopeful, as right now I get a town vibe from him (hopeful)

Having the same scumread with diffenet reasons. Smudger pushed this case for quite a long time.

Smudger

s latest posts (#161-#164) strike me as scummy. There was one sentence that wasn't a question and most of the questions were rhetorical. It's just lot of text but little content. Yes he is trying to invoke conversation but he's not really giving anything to us. No personal views or reads or anything. Here I have to agree with Fuduzn (#156) that Smudger is trying to fly under the radar and acting as neutral and null as possible.

Those posts were horrible, indeed. Maybe he posted like that because of this:

That's what I'm saying. I think scum would stop to think and read over the previous posts, not just post something and then post again if something pops into his mind because he could make an obvious slip or at least get him unwanted attention. You post quite carefreely and you're a new player (lack of experience), yet you haven't made any obvious scumslip. You are either genius or town (I mean if it's true that you have no former experience in forum-mafia)

(Altough he missed the point)

Both

Smudger

and Notscience were skeptic about Feel during D1 and Smudger even voted him twice. But I would say here that Smudger would be too obvious target and scapegoat to be a scum. This actually make Smudger a towner that before in my books.

I don't like it.

Z7 which way doers your scum meter read? I know it was asked b4...

"Oh, I should interact with my scumbuddy."

notscience if you are going to claim or give anything in reply that would stop a hammer then please post.

Z7 posts later but doesn't unvote. No further comment needed.

I have to say I dropped the ball (#336) during last day.

I just want to point out: yes, you did.

I reserved the right to answer you in time, I did not refuse to answer you, my read on Z7 is dependent on the popcorn claim and if it happens, but as you are obviously pushing for it,tbh I am in two minds between him and you, one of you is scum the other is town.

HC @ Z7 - one is scum the other is town.

But you knew that HC was a PR, so, yeah, what?

Smudgers withholding information would be wise if he is a real power role and have some solid information such as cop findings about scum. But I will start the mass claiming circle.

Well, some people are able to understand it...

I have to agree with Smudger right now. There isn't really any holes in his theory if his claim is genuine and right now I don't see any reason to doubt this. We have to wait to hear from Dessew but right now I'am also leaning toward him.

So the first to post is town.
Smudger had considerably less interaction with Z7 than FuDuzn, maybe noteworthy.

Reagarding the order we claimed in:

The order Smudger and I claimed doesn't really matter imo, if someone knew that there was at least 50% chance of having BP/JK (and scum did), claiming bulletproof is rather safe, you don't have to make up night actions or explain yourself much.

[Dessew]

Almost forgot: both of them can be Smudger's scumbuddy, perhaps Z7 is more likely than Fu, but probably only because I like the idea that Smudger deliberately went obvious, and it fits better with Z7 (see: #291)

[Dessew]

On D1 I wanted to participate more, I even made a few summary posts etc., but there were two lurkers, and activity was low over all imo. I was V/LA on D2, I could make only one post. I think I've been fairly active on D3. I had no reason to make a post about two certain players interactions in this depth before because there were no obvious slips. I think it's more useful than a "You're a liar!/No, I'm not, you are!" debate.

Dessew in answer to your

you are the one who isn't answering the questions: what more would a newbie tracker do than a newbie jk?

was here (see the bolded part)

This was furthered strengthened by the fact that HC was always asking questions about game mechanics etc and I believed that he has no idea about what breadcrumbing is. So as part of my thought process it made sense to me that HC was the other town PR,

and more than likely the Jail keeper, as had, he been the tracker I feel even he would have said something in thread.

Okay, but why would he have done anything as a tracker?

Holy page long posts, Batman. Can we get a tl;dr version of that?

Dessew, how come you didn't really participate like this earlier? This is easily the most active you've been all game, and most of it seems reactionary to Smudger's claims.

totally agree, in fact I was about to say the exact same thing.

So you don't like when I post content with details.

[Dessew]

I just think notscience is trying to look very active and to pass an image of a scum hunter.

would you say his posts do not contain enough content to pass as scum hunting then? If so what about yourself?
[/quote]
It was from #161, sorry.

[Dessew]

damnit...
you got the idea, I hope

[Dessew]

The tracker can track only one player at a time, it doesn't have great chance to find the scum who performes the nk. Actually, tracker in /tracker/bp setup works like cop with 50% chance of naive sanity every night. If he doesn't have a catch, he shouldn't act like he has.

I didn't say that I have any issue with your statement, you just desperately try to make me look scummy, so you went like: "he's posting a lot lately (he must be scum)". It's okay, you're supposed to do this, but all you did was repeating HC's question so you "contributed" in clearing the case. But my most important reason to post that you don't like when I post content in detail because you don't like when I post content in detail.

as for scum hunting, I do it a certain way, I look at what is being said if I think a comment has to be made or a question asked I do, if the question has already been asked or I generally accept what is transgressing in the thread then I read, I know it is classed as lurking but that is the nature of the person I am, I find it hard to enter a discussion if 1. I agree with what is being said, or 2 the conversation I feel is not relevant.

I don't get where this comes from, but okay.

bottom line is I see HC having to decide ultimately who is placed on L-1, which is probably a daunting prospect for him, in particular after his post 428.

Of course he's the one who has to decide. Fu&Z7 are basically in the same situation as you and I.

[Dessew]

The tracker can track only one player at a time,

agreed but I think you will understand the point I am making when you see this

VOTE: notscience
I don't mind voting for either notscience or Smudger at this point, as I think both of them are scum.

this was D2 before I hammered. had he been the tracker he would have tracked me N2 or one of the people he thought were my scum buddies

(this from early D3)

At the moment, I think the potential scum teams are Smudger/Z7, FuDuzn/Smudger, Smudger being in both of my theoretical teams.

so he may have seen who carried out the N2 NK on DDP

then if he had, and yes it is all open to debate, this could have happened

as a newbie tracker you send your PM to the Mod and get back so and so1 went to see so and so2.

that night so and so2 gets NK'd

what do you think a newbie tracker would do, keep it quite or post in thread? I think I no what he or she would do, it really is a no brainier TBH.

I respect that Smudger, your post 300 caught me off guard in a good way. You are less scummy after that, and my attention is much more on notscience now.

Also maybe it wasn't you who carried out the NKs but your scumbuddy, and over all, there's a lot of speculation. But yes, if you weren't scum, it'd definitely make sense. Btw, you did perform last night's NK, because FuDuzn was blocked.

Well since talking to Smudge and Z7 is clearly pointless since they clearly, and effectively I will admit, pushing the mislynch(I say this with confidence now since Z7 is going all in only now that he sees that HC is leaning towards voting Dessew and Z7 can just fully commit now).

HC, and I can't believe this just hit me, hasn't Smudge been pushing for you as scum most of the game? The same Smudge who has clearly been following breadcrumbs and pr tells all game just so can be prepared for this situation? You don't think he didn't have a pretty good idea you were a pr while he was trying to get you lynched?

Seems a bit strange right HC?

Distancing from Smudger, using emotions as arguments. Here's the scumteam: Smudger&FuDuzn. (God, I AM slow)

[Dessew]

I hate two doublepost, but I've just arrived home, wanted to make a fast post, but I've got a little more time.

Where did I lie?

I'm the bulletproof.

HC next.

I thought there was something you can prove that I lied about without winning the game. You know, because if you want to "prove" it, you have to lynch me, but then the game ends immediately...

Dessews long posts (#430) are really lacking content in my opinion. There is lot of talk but not much that he says in them. Smudger is doing much clearer job explaining his play and logic. And currently I know that FuDuzn is scum so I would really like to lynch him. But if I had to chooce between Dessew and Smudger I would say that Dessew is the scum. Interaction patterns between Dessew and FuDuzn support them being parters more than FuDuzn being partnered with Smudger.

Please post some of those interaction patterns (not necessary in very very long post if you don't want, a few is just enough)

[Dessew]

I'm still alive ergo FuDuzn isn't scum.

[Dessew]

Looking from HC point of view there are two scum teams. It's either Smudger and me or Dessew and FuDuzn.

This is true. Right now, I'm not having any content to post, and as I see, you aren't, either. Now it's all up to HC, as Smudger said earlier.
(Just as an early warning, if HC doesn't lynch me, I'll be V/LA form Monday till Friday.)

[Dessew]

Lol Lol WIFOM NOT WIFOM NOT Lol WIFOM NOT WIFOM

[Dessew]

Lol Lol Lol WIFOM NOT WIFOM NOT Lol WIFOM NOT WIFOM NOT Lol Lol WIFOM NOT WIFOM NOT Lol WIFOM NOT WIFOM

[Dessew]

GG

[Dessew]

Thanks for the game, guys, I learned a lot from it.