Mini 1464 - Game Over

[RedCoyote]

Hello! I'm replacing into Zhero's slot. Zhero was a man of few words, but I've played with him before. If you're big on meta, you'll find that Zhero's play reminds me very much of his town play in DEFCON Mafia (the only game I have played with him in, I think).

I gave him a lot of guff that game, but I was scum. Anyway, if you're like me and you don't really put much stock in meta, then just take me word for it that Zhero is town.

When I replace into games, I like to share the notes I take as I read through the game. This is something I'll do as scum (see above game) or as town. I find this game particularly important to take notes on given the flips we've had so far. I always preface this by saying that I do not expect any of the players to go through my notes. If you want to, you are certainly welcome to, and that's why I put them up here to share. Without further ado...

Spoiler: Personal Notes

10. pitoli/Infinity 324 - Mafia Roleblocker - Lynched Day 1
8. NicCage - Vanilla Townie - Killed Night 1
9. mvmafia/N64Lord - Vanilla Townie - Killed Night 1
6. mnemonicdevice - Town Doctor - Lynched Day 2
7. Monkeyman576 - Vanilla Townie - Killed Night 2

me = Zhero freshmaniscoolman

I always find it strange when somebody answers a question that was intended for another player? Don't you think mnemonicdevice is a big boy capable of answering his own questions? Why does he need you to answer for him?

Good posting. I already see how pitoli was caught. Things were about to get pretty

hairy

for her.

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Honestly, I can't even remember who the previous vote was, I might have actually got it confused with a vote I lost in another game. *gulp*

This kind of reads as town to me. The reason I say that is that scum would be more inclined to remember where their vote was, I think. This is a very honest post.

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Your claimed reason for voting Zhero is fake, and so are you.

MD was pretty scummy sounding, and I am only 3 pages in.

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I'm reading Haschel as town or anal retentive scum.

pitoli probably wouldn't single her partner out with a comment like this so early in the game.

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At the moment I'm leaning towards a Pitoli + MD scum team. Pitoli moreso. In 41 Pitoli dismisses Monkey's vote fairly quickly and seems to take it far too seriously, especially considering it was on page 2. The whole answering for MD isn't a scumtell as such, but Pitoli's response just doesn't work. In #49 she quickly agrees with Monkey on the fact it was only an observation, then dismisses it as a null tell. Also the latter part of #50 half condemns anyone who calls her out on the fact she answers another question for someone. Answering the question isn't scummy, but fact she felt the need to add the last part of #50 in starts to ping the scumdar.

Good points against pitoli early in the game.

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But, you just did what you accused me of...

Good point.

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I also don't like pitoli's recent posts, but 74 tells me to vote over here. I don't really get how the given quotes add up.

In retrospect (post-pitoli flip), this doesn't look good. I'm always weary of scum doing something like that.

"My partner is scummy, sure, but look at this townie instead" is a possibility.

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I like Feel's post 120. Good list of reads. I agree with the reads. It just looks like someone trying to figure the game out. I like his anger with MD as well.

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Eh I still feel it is a fair judgement of my opinion. But don't worry yet like I said it is only suspicion for now. I haven't voted you yet.

I don't like it when people come across as apologetic for playing the game. If someone honestly makes a mistake, then that's different. But this is wishy washy. "I suspect you but don't worry about it because I am not voting..." Sounds like a weird level of hand wringing.

Vote: mnemonic

Made up my mind =D

Influencial vote at this time that's going to wrong way. Could've been tailor made to change the direction of the game.

It doesn't help him either way no matter if he is scum or town.

I really hate this comment. I get a read a real lack of interest in MD's alignment here.

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Apart from the fact that MD wasn't even actually on L-1, or even L-2, this makes it more and more likely that there's a MD + Pitoli scumteam. As I said earlier, I'm fairly set on MD + Pitoli, so I'm happy to vote either, and I think my vote would be better served on MD.
(Despite the fact that I've been mostly attacking Pitoli)

I like this comment and I think CC is arriving at his thoughts reasonably. That said, I'm reluctant to give him too much love for this given the fact that he jumped from scum to town here.

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Non sequitur post, apparently in response to something I said but not making apparent effort to explain.

I get the same notion. It was somewhat out of place. I think your push on Monkey is warranted here.

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Unvote
Vote: Pitoli

That's a tough vote to make if pitoli is your partner.

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People to look at on my wagon are N64 and Toomai as their votes are rather opportunistic, blending into the rest of the pack. Feelit is still scummy to me and I regret I couldn't pressure him more. Haschel also needs a second look as he has steered clear of my lynch.
I think I believe the MD claim. 2birds and Captain are townish.

Here's the good stuff. Let's see what our lovely vixen threw out there before making a mad dash for the exit.

She's essentially saying the following:

Scum = N64, Toonami, Feel, HC
Town = MD, 2b1s, CC/Smudger

Mmm, she mixed them up good, didn't she? Ugh, this throws Daemon out of the mix if I think she mixed her partner in here somewhere. I'm going to discount it for now. I may come back to it, but she did a pretty good job of sprinkling the names in a confusing manner.

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You can argue that he's not necessarily scum from this (well, I disagree, I think you're underweighting the daytalk, and yes, I will hammer that point for a long time), but not scumtelling isn't a towntell. It's a nulltell. The jump from "I can't see why he'd be scum" to "he's town" is a really bad jump, and really reinforces the scumbuddies possibility.

Good point. I like this. I hadn't really considered it, and it's hard for me to put myself in the shoes of someone reading the game here. This post keeps the pressure on Infinity. Infinity is so scatterbrained that I would've probably been dissuaded from commenting on him had I been here, I think.

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I actually forgot about that possibility, never played in a game with a serial killer, good point.

I'm still wary of lynching mnem with his doc claim, I don't think the case of him and Infinity/pitoli is very strong either.

Maybe it's just me, but I get such a wholesome vibe from Feel when he posts. I don't know what it is, but he really appears innocent and fresh-eyed.

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Zhero, Haschel Cedricson, MonkeyMan576, Feel It, 2birds1stone

Something worth noting here is that Daemon tried to get on this wagon at the end as well. I don't think he realized MD had been lynched.

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Oh I wonder I wonder who in this group is a baddy Zhero, Haschel Cedricson, MonkeyMan576, Feel It, 2birds1stone

Normally I am a big believer in VCA, but this just strikes me as really scummy. There's a good chance there is scum in that group, but Daemon immediately tries to spin it in such a way that he carries no culpability. In fact, Daemon tried to be the sixth vote on this wagon.

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Not convinced that scum were necessarily on the wagon, beyond the fact scum normally are on lynching wagons (translation: nothing about the wagon struck me as particularly bad. Mnemonic really did look like Pitoli's buddy, and had a truly shitty claim, then I derphammered).

Yeah, I understand this. On the one hand, your blind aggression reads town because scum would've likely been more cautious than to hammer so quickly. On the other, it's hard to say with any authority that scum would or would not have been on that wagon due to the speed of it. It just went so quick that some people didn't get a chance to post, let alone consider their vote.

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And I am not saying I am off that list either since I did vote just the same.

Uh, yeah you are. Otherwise you would've acknowledged it somehow. Now you are trying to act like you should be included in that list only because 2b1s called you on it.

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Through the run of events he names 2B1S, Zhero, Toomai, Daemon as possible scum, interchanging freely but stays away from Nic, Feel It and HC. The question is why? And based on MDs list and tunneling statement then my FoS is pointed at HC and to a lesser extent Toomai as I think the whole thing in relation to Toomai smells of distancing.

I see your point, but what about the early things pitoli had to say about HC? The things she said to HC didn't strike me as two scumbuddies talking together.

I will file this under "usually there's scum in my town group", but I think just throwing some light suspicion in the direction of HC and Toonami is a bit weak. I'm getting very clear reads in this game so far.

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You know, I don't mind if people think I was tunneling on mnemonicdevice*, but it seems to me like you're placing an undue amount of weight on MD's list.

This. I figured you were obligated to call out Smudger for that, but I agree anyway. Speaking from a replacing point of view, how Smudger thought that was arguably what carried the most weight in this game is subjectively wrong and objectively highly questionable.

Of course, I'm not expecting Smudger to invest his day into going over this game with a fine tooth comb, but I just don't see where he's coming from. He's really forcing the HC scumread, I think. I don't like it.

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This strikes me as a generally fluffy post (specifically; lists aren't useful).

Strongly disagree with this, but it's political so *shrug*.

I'm actually a bit impressed that Toonami has the game almost exactly how I have it (swap Smudger and 2b1s; replace Zhero's name with Toonami). I think this should give him some townpoints.

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Zhero seemed scummy but he was also away and was probably busy and has a replacement now. I wanna give him a chance at least.

First post from Feel that I actively don't like, but willing to throw it aside as the outlier. I just don't think this is a good enough reason to unvote and not vote someone else.

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There are aspects of Toomai's play which just bug me. For the most part, he has answered for himself relatively calmly and consistently, but certain things he has done very much ring scum to me; the other part of me is pointing out that most of it can be put down fairly simply to bad/suboptimal/unusual play.

I'm not sure if I'm overthinking this, or underthinking this, or something else altogether.

This could be fake, but I'm inclined to say no. This is a good way to interpret Toonami, I think. I really like you too, 2b1s.

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Or who ever his replacement is I forgot the name who ever you are sorry about that.

Again, this apologetic crap. I know, some of you are thinking this is just null... but this mentality of being so passive strikes me as lacking of character. It's a bit slimy and flowery (no pun intended).

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No, because you care too much about my read on you.

Why shouldn't he? You're voting him, so it's in his best (and the town's, if he is town) interest to engage you and attempt to get you to read him as town.

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While reading Toomai's ISO something in it made me read through Infinity's ISO again

This is the second time you've ignored pitoli. Why? I absolutely support your decision to read over Infinity. It's a good idea and could lead to potential partnerships, but you're ignoring over half the game when you don't consider pitoli. I know for a fact pitoli has posts that reference her reads on other players.

It just seems like you're doing this half-assed.

+3 T - HC
+4 T - Feel
+1 T/+2 S - CC/Smudger
+4 T - 2b1s
+2 T/+1 S - Toonami
+3 S - Daemon

Okay, so now I am up to speed. Let's get a scumscale in here and see where the players stand.

[

Scum

]--------Daemon-----Smudger--[

∙

]--Toonami-----HC--Feel-1b1s-----[

Town

]

What's most likely the case is that there's one scum on either side of this scale (assuming a three player scumteam). That said, given that scum flipped as RB and we only had one kill last night, I think we could have one scumteam of two PRs. Or possibly 2 scum and a traitor.

Smudger - Honestly, this isn't a really big scumread for me, but Smudger is much more sketchy to me than CC was. I've had the unfortunate experience of losing to Smudger after underestimating his abilities, so I am still a bit sore from that loss. This cat is colder than ice, by the way. Don't let him fool you. The two solid reasons I am running with so far just took place today. I really didn't have anything too negative to say about CC. On the contrary, CC was shaping up to be a solid townread of mine had I replaced into this game earlier. Smudger's inital catchup post struck the wrong chord with me. He emphasized the wrong points, ignored large swaths of information, and his conclusion of HC as the biggest scumread in this game really went the other direction from the reads I got. I'm willing to come to go with the idea that it's likely I am wrong about one of my town reads (assuming there is more than one scum left), but it's not as though his choice of HC is particularly convincing anyway. In all, it's just a poor start, I think. The other point I want to make is that he seems to really be ignoring pitoli's contributions to the game as a matter of fact. The first time he did it, I thought it was just odd. But with the latest post he just made, I'm starting to think it is purposeful. He's painting a picture with omissions that are glaring and obvious. That doesn't bode well for him as one that is genuinely trying to find scum.

Daemon - The first big thing I want to note about Daemon is that I really think scum would've tried hard to prevent the Infinity lynch. The living people not on the Infinity lynch: HC, Daemon, and Feel. A roleblocker is a pretty nice tool for the scumteam, so it's not something they want to lose, certainly not on the first day. Of the three living people that weren't on Infinity's lynch, Daemon is my biggest scumread. Other points against Daemon include his persistent need to apologize or be sorry for his posts. See posts 131 and 314 in my notes above for more on this. Daemon doesn't really like to hurt feelings or be too aggressive, in other words. I think most would agree that Daemon has been pretty under-the-radar this game, yes? Well, that's certainly been helpful for him so far, and today is the first day that I think he's actually around posting more often now that he's been feeling a bit of pressure. His start to D3 really turned me off. He first made the comment that VCA dictates that there was definitely scum on the MD lynch, but he forgets to note that he tried to jump aboard that wagon after it hammered. What makes this post particularly bad is when 2b1s calls him out for not acknowledging his (late) support of the MD wagon, Daemon immediately tries to sooth 2b1s' concern and wants it known that he considers himself as part of the MD lynch group. That whole exchange read as really artificial to me. Daemon being caught with his pants down, you know? Lastly, Daemon was in a really bad position on D1 when he had a turn to be influencial and use his vote to pressure either pitoli or MD (he didn't have to vote either, but he voluntarily put himself in this position) and he voted MD. He actually went out of his way to avoid the pitoli/Infinity lynch on D1, which is certainly not a good thing, in retrospect.

VOTE: Daemon385

tl;dr = Daemon is scummy for his interaction with the pitoli/Infinity wagon, the post-MD lynch commentary, and his overall passivity. Smudger is scummy for awkward omissions in catching up and choosing HC as scum with poor rationale.

[RedCoyote]

HC, I would like to see if Feel is planning on casting a vote today.

Feel, are you reading the thread now?

Daemon, honestly, I'm not really impressed with your response. In particular that last sentence,

Now my read on who I think is probobly scum are : Zhero (Which is now Red) and TwoBirds. I also believe if that for some reasons TwoBirds isn't scum then either Toomai is or it was just two town throwing punches at one another.

What are you even saying here? The scum is either me and 2b1s (but if it's not 2b1s then it is Toonami). Or maybe we're all three just town after all. That's so wimpy, man. Really what I've wanted from you during my entire reread of the thread was a solid attack. Aside from DM, you haven't ever really stuck your neck out and called out scum. Your 2b1s vote seems really reactionary. Honestly, had he not decided to vote you, I don't think you would've voted him.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, you are town.

Would you like me to try and defend anything specifically that Zhero said? Sometimes when I replace in, I make notes on how townie my slot is. I didn't do that this time because I kind of agree with you. Zhero did not have a very strong game. As far as opportunistic goes, what or who specifically would you say?

[RedCoyote]

2b1s, are you two-shot? Or can you keep going?

I'm definitely inclined to believe 2b1s. I have a pretty strong townread on him and a scumread on Smudger.

VOTE: Smudger

[RedCoyote]

Ah, sorry, Mod didn't PM me and I forgot about this game until seeing HC posting elsewhere on the site.

That's tough luck, Feel. Props to our Tracker for getting some quality reports. Toomai is correct.

I didn't mean to hold y'all in suspense.

VOTE: Feel It

[RedCoyote]

I was glad to come in and help the town. All three sides played pretty good, I think. pitoli/Infinity just got caught in a tough spot. I echo the Mod in that I am now pretty surprised that HC went after MD in retrospect, but I guess it ultimately didn't make much difference.

Lol, Smudger, looks good.

And now here is your chance to help me. If there are any comments, criticisms, or concerns about the way I modded this game, please post them in this thread as well. I've already made a lot of notes on how I can improve in this regard, but other opinions are definitely welcome.

Just the PM this was the only criticism I had. I didn't realize the game thread had opened back up. Everything else is fine, I didn't notice any issues administratively. Good job!

[RedCoyote]

And gg everyone.