Mini 1464 - Game Over

[2birds1stone]

/confirm

Vote: Daemon385

, I haven't slept and he is being scary.

[2birds1stone]

Don't know how to try to get an archive somewhere, but I can throw up part of my tracksheet.

Spoiler: Pre-crash game state/votecount

(the

is me, other abbreviations should be self-explanatory)

Unofficial Pre-Crash Vote Count

Captain Corporal (2)

- Daemon385, pitoli

Feel It (2)

- Monkeyman576, Haschel Cedricson

mnemonicdevice (2)

- N64Lord, Zhero

N64Lord (2)

- Toomai, mvmafia

Daemon385 (1)

- 2birds1stone

Haschel Cedricson (1)

- Captain Corporal

Monkeyman576 (1)

- Feel It

Zhero (1)

- mnemonicdevice
2birds1stone -
mvmafia -
pitoli -
Toomai -

Not Voting (0)

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

I am assuming that votes and such got rolled back with the lost posts, but people might still have wanted to see this.

Unvote

Vote: Toomai

Scum trying to look like helpful townsperson, methinks.

[2birds1stone]

Vote: Toomai

Scum trying to look like helpful townsperson, methinks.

I keep this stuff behind the curtains every game I do, and why would I make information more available as scum?

Because it's useless information. It's votes from an RVS which doesn't even count towards the game. To bring it up only serves to obfuscate the game with hypotheticals.

I'm also pretty pissed off that someone had to go and resurrect an RQS that was lost in rollback. Losing RQSes and the baggage that comes with them is a good thing for the game. The thread's now got plenty of noise regarding what the questions actually were and who said/thought what about them. This is not fucking helpful, and everyone contributing to it is gaining scumpoints.

Vote stays on Toomai for now, but not loving mnemonicdevice or Zhero either.

[2birds1stone]

I guess Haschel's town. Sure, he had to go and bring RQS up, and I'm pissed off about that, but getting worked up about people not answering questions is kinda a townie trait.

[2birds1stone]

Vote stays on Toomai for now, but not loving mnemonicdevice or Zhero either.

Can you explain why?

Vote stays for previous reasons.

I felt mnemonic and Zhero were the worst contributors of RQS noise.

[2birds1stone]

Also I think the fact that Toomai posted the vote log is a null tell, and I'm not sure why 2birds feels the need to make a deal out of it.

He brought up information irrelevant to the game under the guise of helpful information. It's the ultimate way for scum to appear to help town without actually contributing.

I keep this stuff behind the curtains every game I do, and why would I make information more available as scum?

Toomai's reply continues the "I was being useful" facade, rather than acknowledging the non-usefuleness of the information.

Nope, Toomai's a fine place to park my vote.

[2birds1stone]

Dunno. Thinking Toomai for his "i keep this kind of stuff behind curtains"
Feelit seems kind of scummy too.
Not sure about pitoli
The rest read town currently for me

Huh that reminds me, I think that I should change my random vote to something better:

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Toomai

Huh, kinda OMGUSy.

Not quite sure what to make of this.

Possibly scum distancing, possibly me being wrong about Toomai (I suppose it's possible I'm wrong about Toomai and mnemonic is town too). Scum distancing is my current favourite, but I'm not normally good at picking that up, so it'd be nice if someone else could comment on the plausibility of it.

So you're saying that voting patterns near the end of the random voting stage are unimportant? If so, I disagree. Yeah it might not have been necessary to bring up the entire random voting history, but it's not like people have to care about it. Nobody other than you seems to.

RVS didn't end until someone put out random questions, which only ever serves to muddy a game (rather than provide the clean break from RVS one would hope for). This wasn't voting history from 'near the end of RVS'.

This isn't about me caring or not caring about the information specifically. This is me caring about the fact that you were very obviously going to the effort of trying to look useful while contributing nothing. Town don't (ugh, shouldn't) do that.

Your posts are making me more sure of my suspicions, not less.

[2birds1stone]

I don't like that mnemonic is so vague, but I'm not sure he's scum yet.

This sounds like scumbuddy talk.

Is this elaborable?

I'm cool with being wrong about Toomai if Zhero and mnemonic are scumbuddies.

[2birds1stone]

I'm cool with being wrong about Toomai if Zhero and mnemonic are scumbuddies.

If you think zhero is cum bussing mnemoic, please be more direct, especially since, having two weeks, we can replace the "fallen" pitoli wagon with almost anything and still win infomration. Although I'll probabbly right an iso on pitoli once I've read her new posts.

This doesn't really make sense. As in, asking me to be direct makes sense, because seriously, subtlety sucks, but that's not the rationale you gave.

Anyway, that's not what I thought, I was just failing at reading the thread. I do that a lot.

Gotta go, may be back with a revote if mnemonic isn't at L-1. I like the case.

[2birds1stone]

By the by, just to cut off any speculation, I will unequivocally state that I am not the doctor.

No, but you are town.

Mnemonic is a dangerous lynch as of 156, although

why would she do it here, instead of talking through mafia chat.

The assumption that scum have daytalk is a strange one (and almost makes me want risk the wagon anyway).

Keeping vote where it is for the time being.

[2birds1stone]

if MD's alive D2 we'll have some difficult questions for him.

Scumpoints.

[2birds1stone]

This is only my second game, and since I didn't play scum in my first game, I did not realize that scum don't usually have daytalk. Sorry about that.

Nope.

Not buying this at all.

I don't believe that someone who had read the wiki or listened to their IC would jump to the assumption that daychat is the norm.

"did not realize that scum don't usually have daytalk" reads to me as "I have daytalk and did not realize it is not the norm".

L-1 doc claim makes a degree of sense given daychat.

Ugh, I don't really want to risk hammering a doc.

I'm not reading the thread, but didn't someone suggest a plausible mnemonic partner? Wouldn't mind wagoning them to test the waters.

*rereads*

Unvote
Vote: Pitoli

[2birds1stone]

People to look at on my wagon are N64 and Toomai as their votes are rather opportunistic, blending into the rest of the pack.

N64 reads new more than scum to me.

Not totally sure what I think of Toomai; I certainly don't think he's scummy for getting on your wagon, but he hasn't done anything to convince me he's town since my initial case. That said, I was intentionally overstating early-game suspicions, I'm really not worried about him the same way I am about mnemonic (btw, his he trying to lurk pressure off, or am I just being impatient?)

[2birds1stone]

Doesn't the scum having daychat make coaching in-thread useless? That really makes no sense.

This point is partially why I'm avoiding the Pitoliwagon; the irony is that if the daytalk thing WAS a scumslip then some of the reasons Pitoli was suspicious go away. In addition, it seems to me that the Pitoliwagon is largely (I acknowledge not entirely) built off of the assumption that Pitoli and mnemonic are scumbuddies. In cases like this, I never prefer to lynch the suspect that is merely linked to the scummier suspect.

First up, mnemonic is a terrible lynch for obvious reasons; while I agree with you in general, sometimes you just have to test the waters.

Second up, you're right in calling out the coaching thing as bullshit, but the soft-defence and refusal to take a stand on mnemonic is still enough to make the lynch worthwhile. Pitoli is also scummy in her own right from #165 (seriously, there isn't anything right about this post).

Infinity's come to a reasonable conclusion (I see how early-Toomai push looks like distancing), but is unfortunately wrong.

@Infinity

, explain the daytalk slip. You pointed out that newb PRs sometimes pick up the misguided idea that they should lurk/blend in/etc. and therefore appear scummy, but I haven't heard anything from you regarding daytalk.

[2birds1stone]

^^ Yes, that's my point, that's why I have townread on mnemonic. The early claim and general play can be explained by noobishness.

Nope.

You can argue that he's not necessarily scum from this (well, I disagree, I think you're underweighting the daytalk, and yes, I will hammer that point for a long time), but not scumtelling isn't a towntell. It's a nulltell. The jump from "I can't see why he'd be scum" to "he's town" is a really bad jump, and really reinforces the scumbuddies possibility.

[2birds1stone]

Okay, so Infinity vaguely states why I may be scum (as I said, actually quite reasonably), but then goes votes Toomai.

Infinity has yet to implicate Toomai as scum. Iso him. He accused me of weirdness towards Toomai, and said my iso "gives him scumvibes", but there's nothing about Toomai in it.

So why vote Toomai?

Toomai suddenly makes sense as third scum; Infinity could be taking the immediate bus for towncred with the view to equalise with a mislynch on me the next day.

Okay, so trying to call scumteams day one is invariably counter-productive, but in a way, that's not the point here. The point is that there's a lot of inconsistency and weirdness on the Infinity end, and that I'm really not convinced there's town in that slot.

[2birds1stone]

EDIT: Yes, Infinity says we could be buddies. My point is that he never accuses Toomai of individual scumminess, only myself; logically, I should be the on being voted here.

[2birds1stone]

So, Infinity's called out on voting the wrong person, and responds by backpedalling and revoting?

Yes, definitely town.

[2birds1stone]

My townread on mnemonic is due to not finding anything inexplicably scummy about him

By this logic, no-one's ever null.

You were perfectly willing to call people null in Mini 1446.

More inconsistency.

[2birds1stone]

Am I hammered yet?

My townread on mnemonic is due to not finding anything inexplicably scummy about him

By this logic, no-one's ever null.

That's not what I'm saying. Null means you have some scummy things about you, but not enough to make you scum.

Reread the thread, and can still definitely see a mnem/pit team. Contrary to my last post, I'm okay with either lynch.

Hi guys, I agree that pitoli was scummy, but my role PM said I'm town, so :/

Actually I wouldn't be that opposed to my lynch because it would give lots of info

Big scumpoints here.

????

I'll wait for others to weigh in on the toomai/2birds thing before explaining.

This also flags me. Basically waiting for someone to make a case for him, and when Toomai obliges, switches gears from a Toomai vote to a 2birds vote accordingly.

Also as mentioned above, he seems to be casting a wide net, without really getting into many details.

VOTE: Infinity

It's called giving people townpoints for guessing my reasoning.

228's "not scummy = town" and 231's "here's the case on Toomai, he's probably actually town" together are pretty bad.

Let me explain this better. At first I thught you were scum due to the two things I mentioned in addition to your posting being fake, which is why I was surprised 2birds didn't call you out on those things. When I was trying to find examples a faked posting, your posts seemed more towny to me. In addition, I saw the 2birds was overstating his early scumread on you so he may not have been able to notice future scummy things about you.

and all of a sudden I'm wondering whether you're new as opposed to scum.

To break down:

That's not what I'm saying. Null means you have some scummy things about you, but not enough to make you scum.

No. Believe it or not, null means null. This can cover a variety of circumstances, including "not having posted enough to be readable", and more relevantly "not posted anything which gives away their alignment".

I suppose you could proceed under an "innocent until proven guilty" mentality, but that would presumably be a binary system in which everyone is town until they're sufficiently scummy to be lynch-worthy; there still wouldn't be a 'null' in this.

To call one person null because they've dropped tells both ways, but another person town because they've dropped no tells is horribly inconsistent. I initially assumed this was just you being scum, except you charge forward with such conviction that I can only really attribute this to you being new.

It's called giving people townpoints for guessing my reasoning.

How. The. Fuck. Does. Guessing. Reasoning. Make. Someone. Town.? Scum. Can. Think. From. Town. Perspective. Too.. Good. Scum. Will..

In addition, I saw the 2birds was overstating his early scumread on you so he may not have been able to notice future scummy things about you.

I don't think you understand the purpose of over-stating the strength of a read early-game. It's a way of kick-starting a game in that awkward RVS stage when there's nothing to go on.

Your backtracking is still bad enough to be vote-worthy, but it's clear that some of what I've been voting you for is newb-motivated rather than scum-motivated.

[2birds1stone]

Vote: mnemonicdevice

Nothing needs to be said about this vote.

[2birds1stone]

I wasn't actually counting votes when I placed mine; having said that, I don't really regret the hammer (specifically; it sucks that I hammered before the replacement could weigh in, but beyond that, eh).

Not convinced that scum were necessarily on the wagon, beyond the fact scum normally are on lynching wagons (translation: nothing about the wagon struck me as particularly bad. Mnemonic really did look like Pitoli's buddy, and had a truly shitty claim, then I derphammered).

I'll be back in a bit with some more to add, unless I don't have any more to add (translation: I'm being intentionally vague here, don't expect a translation).

Wow 5 hours to L+1. I'm thinking 1 scum and the theoretical SK are on this wagon.

This post strikes me as odd; picking SK over vig strikes me as a bizarre assumption (seriously, N64 as an anti-town kill?). Also, one scum is a really randomly specific guess. Why not two scum?

[2birds1stone]

Oh I wonder I wonder who in this group is a baddy Zhero, Haschel Cedricson, MonkeyMan576, Feel It, 2birds1stone

I was trying to figure out why there are only seven alive; then I realised this was only twelve-player to begin with.

Hypothetically, if mnemonic was all-town wagon (and I'm not saying that it is), this gives scum an opportunity to push five easy mislynches; proceeding with the assumption that we should lynch the people on the wagon through foible of them being on the wagon is bad. To put it another way, I do not believe that the mnemonic wagon should be treated any differently from any other wagon (though I would say that as either alignment).

Oh I wonder I wonder who in this group is a baddy Zhero, Haschel Cedricson, MonkeyMan576, Feel It, 2birds1stone

This strikes me as hypocritical, given that he was on the wagon every bit as quick as I was (his vote didn't actually count, but his post reads as though he wasn't actually counting votes either).

[2birds1stone]

Uh... ignore the double quote

[2birds1stone]

Okay, I have my suspicions w/r/t Zhero (I personally feel Haschel is a pretty terrible vote, but whatever), and I'm kinda not loving Daemon either, but I'm ultimately gonna vote Toomai.

Infinity distancing is probably the biggest thing on him, but I'm also going a little on gut.

Vote: Toomai

[2birds1stone]

[...] it seems to me like you're placing an undue amount of weight on MD's list.

Yeah I'm kinda thinking we shouldn't care too much about his list either. It may be from a town player but he protected his third-scummiest read and his play in general has been agreed as pretty poor. That said, I don't really think Smudger is putting "undue weight" on it. Slight bias maybe.

For the record, my list is currently something like this:

Haschel Cedricson

Feel It

Smudger

2birds1stone

Zhero

Daemon385

This strikes me as a generally fluffy post (specifically; lists aren't useful). Given that fluff was what I originally called Toomai out on at the start of the game, I feel comfortable in keeping my vote where it was (though, to be perfectly fair, his posts haven't been fluffy overall, it's really just two notable instances which stick out at me; what really bugs me about the two fluff posts is they're both posts masquerading as useful information, which is substantially more malicious than fluff posts that are obviously fluff).

Has anyone actually got a case on Haschel? I've seen a few votes his way, but he strikes me as very much town, and I don't recall seeing anything convincing put against him.

[2birds1stone]

Not believing a claim isn't a scumtell. Keeping the vote there was bad, but it was consistent with his play (inconsistency being substantially more a scumtell than bad play is).

Regardless, I've been chewing Toomai over, and I'm kinda unsure. I see lots of scumminess in the slot, but nothing damning.

Ultimately, I really do want to keep my eye on Toomai, I do not have him down as town by any means, but at the same time, it's a slightly risky lynch.

Unvote
Vote: Daemon385

[2birds1stone]

My initial reaction was "Yes, Toomai is bussing Daemon".

My second reaction is "Wait, he's a buddy down already".

Huh.

Not sure what to make of this.

Keeping with Daemon for now, simply because he's scummier than Toomai is.

I suppose I could assume Daemon and Toomai are opposite-alignment, but that kinda feels like a cop-out.

Ugh, this game just got less clear.

[2birds1stone]

There are aspects of Toomai's play which just bug me. For the most part, he has answered for himself relatively calmly and consistently, but certain things he has done very much ring scum to me; the other part of me is pointing out that most of it can be put down fairly simply to bad/suboptimal/unusual play.

I'm not sure if I'm overthinking this, or underthinking this, or something else altogether.

[2birds1stone]

sorry 2Birds I replaced in so if this is known forgive me but are you a hydra? your posting styles changed in between your last two posts?

No, but I am something of a schizophrenic poster; I naturally play in a stream-of-consciousness style, but this isn't actually very readable for a lot of people, so I try to force myself to play in a more analytical manner. The result is what you saw there (and on an unrelated note, This is my hydra).

and I find 309 "as it says on the tin", a cop out. what is your basis for suspecting Daemon over Toomai, can you give some examples?

Daemon's a gut thing which I can't be bothered analyzing more deeply atm, but the "suspecting Daemon over Toomai" came from towntells dropped on Toomai's part, not greater scumtells on Daemon's part.

Having said that, I'm actually changing my vote back to Toomai.

Unvote
Vote: Toomai

I've skimmed (very lightly skimmed, mind) day one of his newbie games, and iso'd him in those games, and his play there strikes me as more together than it is here; I would not have picked him as a new player in those games, beyond the obvious tells someone drops as a new player. In this game, I very much had him down as a new player, which I now believe is the nerves of someone who is scum for the first time on site.

Also,

[...] the other part of me is pointing out that most of it can be put down fairly simply to bad/suboptimal/unusual play.

Which parts can't you link to being bad? Those I might be able to explain.

Nope, don't like this post at all.

[2birds1stone]

Because I appear to be using my below-averageness as an excuse?

No, because you care too much about my read on you.

I've skimmed (very lightly skimmed, mind) day one of his newbie games, and iso'd him in those games,

anything in particular you want to share with us to back it up?

No.

Brother left his account logged in, I forgot to log out.

[2birds1stone]

wat

What?

[2birds1stone]

Haven't really had much to say. Is AcRv a replacement for someone?

Did you actually read the post immediately after it?

wat

Your first post in three days is filler? Really? Why do you not post any insight on the discussion since then?

I've skimmed (very lightly skimmed, mind) day one of his newbie games, and iso'd him in those games,

anything in particular you want to share with us to back it up?

No.

So you re-evaluate a read based on meta and decline to give concrete examples as to why, okay.

Ok thanks Toomai but I was going "to go to town"on this one,

2birds really? You enter a meta read into the game, in a way that says this is important everyone please take note of this and then when asked to share it you say no?

Care to give a valid reason why not?

Two reasons.

One, it was more effort than I usually go to to iso him; I really can't be bothered re-iso-ing to find specific examples.

Two, I'd like someone else to double-check my findings.

Anyway, is Toomai's response to the pressure not enough here? He responded quite reasonably at first, which made me doubt him, but once he starts worrying about my read on him despite the fact I'm not voting him, I have to wonder why he cares so much. He then grasps at "elaborate, damnit"; this is scum trying to remove heat.

Finally, meta is not the primary thrust of my suspicion against him, meta is merely a way of establishing that his scumminess is not just a playstyle thing on his part.

[2birds1stone]

No, because you care too much about my read on you.

Why shouldn't he? You're voting him, so it's in his best (and the town's, if he is town) interest to engage you and attempt to get you to read him as town.

This comes from before I voted him.

Obviously, chronologically, it doesn't (I voted him in 319) but the "you care too much about my read on you" was actually part of my 319 vote; it simply wasn't until later that I fully elaborated on the problem with the post.

You put a strong case against Daemon385, but the most convincing aspect of it is Daemon's response.

Vote stays where it is, but sure, I'll support a Daemon lynch if Toomai refuses to die.

possible SK

HOLY FUCKING SHIT WHY DOES THIS THING KEEP GETTING BROUGHT UP?

[2birds1stone]

No, actually, I can't ignore that response, that was really bad.

Vote: Daemon385

But fuckit, I'm not gonna be derailed from Toomai-lynching for a third day in a row.

[2birds1stone]

I just freaked out and went "Shit, did I quickhammer again?", but no, Daemon's at L-1 now.

[2birds1stone]

The combination of Daemon ignoring #324, the points made by RC's excellent post, and Daemon's craptacular response to said post have me ready to hammer.

Before I do, though, I would like to hear the REAL reason 2birds is suspicious of Toomai.

*sigh*

First, my RVS suspicions never went away.

Second, Infinity/Toomai interactions are freaking weird

Third, Toomai cared way too much about my suspicions against him even before I had him revoted.

Fourth, 275 was too specific for my liking, specifically "one scum".

Having said that, as much as I really want to lynch Toomai, I'm having trouble believing that he'd actually bus the even-scummier Daemon after losing a roleblocker day one (but eh, WIFOM and all that).

[2birds1stone]

In case no-one noticed, Daemon didn't actually start posting regularly until L-1.

[2birds1stone]

Bad news is: I'm not voting Toomai today.

Good news is: I asked the mod where Smudger went last night, and it turns out he visited a certain Haschel Cedricson.

N1 track was Toomai (nothing incriminating, which is part of the reason I've allowed myself to be derailed from his lynch so easily)
N2 track was Zhero (nothing incriminating; that's RedCoyote's slot according to the first post)

Vote: Smudger

[2birds1stone]

I went to investigate Toomai last night and received a vanilla result? I could only do that once btw investigate someone. So that sort of scuppers my big announcement that Toomai is not scum??

Uh, there's a cop role in a game which has not only a doc, but a back-up doc?

Uh, no (honestly, I'm kinda surprised at doc+nurse+tracker)

Having said that, I admire the ballsiness of claiming redirection, it's certainly not something I've heard of in a normal.

[2birds1stone]

Well done to everyone for a good game! That meddling 2birds, I almost had the game. Got worried too when I lost my partner d1.

Yeano, losing your roleblocker day one really screwed you over hardcore, though Infinity did a good job of not linking himself to you.

I probably would've screwed LyLo up had I been left alive, kinda glad I was nightkilled.