Mini 1464 - Game Over

[Toomai]

/confirm

Vote: N64Lord

Get N or get out.

V/LA most of Saturday

[Toomai]

Don't know how to try to get an archive somewhere, but I can throw up part of my tracksheet.

Spoiler: Pre-crash game state/votecount

(the

is me, other abbreviations should be self-explanatory)

Unofficial Pre-Crash Vote Count

Captain Corporal (2)

- Daemon385, pitoli

Feel It (2)

- Monkeyman576, Haschel Cedricson

mnemonicdevice (2)

- N64Lord, Zhero

N64Lord (2)

- Toomai, mvmafia

Daemon385 (1)

- 2birds1stone

Haschel Cedricson (1)

- Captain Corporal

Monkeyman576 (1)

- Feel It

Zhero (1)

- mnemonicdevice
2birds1stone -
mvmafia -
pitoli -
Toomai -

Not Voting (0)

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

I am assuming that votes and such got rolled back with the lost posts, but people might still have wanted to see this.

[Toomai]

Vote: Toomai

Scum trying to look like helpful townsperson, methinks.

I keep this stuff behind the curtains every game I do, and why would I make information more available as scum?

You're more scummy than anyone else

I don't see this.

[Toomai]

@HC: your not doing a good job of convincing anyone that your town.

I don't see a precedent for putting this out. What was it?

[Toomai]

Also I think the fact that Toomai posted the vote log is a null tell, and I'm not sure why 2birds feels the need to make a deal out of it.

He brought up information irrelevant to the game under the guise of helpful information. It's the ultimate way for scum to appear to help town without actually contributing.

I keep this stuff behind the curtains every game I do, and why would I make information more available as scum?

Toomai's reply continues the "I was being useful" facade, rather than acknowledging the non-usefuleness of the information.

So you're saying that voting patterns near the end of the random voting stage are unimportant? If so, I disagree. Yeah it might not have been necessary to bring up the entire random voting history, but it's not like people have to care about it. Nobody other than you seems to.

Unvote

from random vote

[Toomai]

Oh yeah and.

Vote: mnemonicdevice

I also don't like pitoli's recent posts, but 74 tells me to vote over here. I don't really get how the given quotes add up.

[Toomai]

The fact that neither of the top 2 wagons are willing to vote for each other further suggests they could be a scum team. I am almost willing to switch to md to move the day along.

I don't think that's too strong an argument on day 1 before any wagons have significantly fallen down. If it were later in the day then maybe but I'm not convinced.

@HC: your not doing a good job of convincing anyone that your town.

I don't see a precedent for putting this out. What was it?

Still would like to get an answer to this.

[Toomai]

that wouldn't be moving the day along, it would be ending it prematurely since he's L-1 now.

L-1? List all six current votes on him please.

[Toomai]

I'm not ready to end this day.

Unvote

[Toomai]

Vote: MonkeyMan576

No but if you add one and one together you get two.

Non sequitur post, apparently in response to something I said but not making apparent effort to explain.

I am almost willing to switch to md to move the day along.

Unvote:
Vote: mnemonic

Yeah he did sorta-kinda tell us in advance, but he still jumped onto the L-1 spot of the mnemonicdevice wagon with no real rationale other than "this could be coaching and they aren't cross-voting, so let's get through the day fast".

[Toomai]

Toomai, you are nuts. I've been advocating the pitoli-mnemonic team since PAGE 2!!!!! That is far from "kinda warning us in advance".

I'm talking about your vote, not your reads. Nothing really happened with mnemonicdevice between your vote and your previous post other than people saying "he's not saying anything". Even though you said before you might change vote, it felt opportunistic to do so with no given reason right after someone else did.

I think the Doctor claim is null to be honest. Under the "new player" argument, either he's town taking the "get to L-1, claim" philosophy seriously, or a more experienced scumbuddy suggested "if you get rung up day 1, claim Doctor" (I've seen this in pregame scumchats before).

[Toomai]

I don't believe that someone who had read the wiki or listened to their IC would jump to the assumption that daychat is the norm.

"did not realize that scum don't usually have daytalk" reads to me as "I have daytalk and did not realize it is not the norm".

L-1 doc claim makes a degree of sense given daychat.

I'm mostly agreeing with this but not convinced enough to revote.

Vote: pitoli

because I think my vote will be more useful there for now.

[Toomai]

[...] I'm really not worried about him the same way I am about mnemonic (btw, his he trying to lurk pressure off, or am I just being impatient?)

The not posting isn't helping his Doctor claim, that's for sure. The tone of his last few posts imply he's just sitting around for his supposed lynch to happen, but he's only at 2 votes now so it doesn't make sense.

[Toomai]

Toomai and 2birds are scumbuddies.

I assume this stems from a conception that 2b1s was distancing from me with 33, 86, and 106, with some backing off in 123 and 139 to make a change of heart viable, followed by the 196 noncommittalance.

Perhaps he's scum for that (I have him as null right now, since 153 on looks town to me), but not with me.

[Toomai]

228's "not scummy = town" and 231's "here's the case on Toomai, he's probably actually town" together are pretty bad.

[Toomai]

That was a pretty awful vote. If you're not scum trying too hard to get towncred then you're almost a town liability, what with claiming Doctor and proceeding to lurk and derphammer.

[Toomai]

Vig shot?

I disagree. I feel both the nightkills were on more background-ish players that nobody really suspected or discussed. I am of the opinion this is a Serial Killer that wanted to play it safe in case there actually was a doctor.

Of course the Mafia appear to have made the same play; that's probably just mindgames.

Waiting for protection claim to pass judgement on mnemonicdevice.

[Toomai]

Wow 5 hours to L+1. I'm thinking 1 scum and the theoretical SK are on this wagon.

[Toomai]

Just so we're clear I do agree that he's been pretty scummy. But I don't like how fast the wagon came down.

[Toomai]

This post strikes me as odd; picking SK over vig strikes me as a bizarre assumption (seriously, N64 as an anti-town kill?). Also, one scum is a really randomly specific guess. Why not two scum?

I stated in 262 that I think SK is more likely than Vig; of course Night 2 only had one death so that idea's now slightly less likely. I figured there would be just 1 Mafia member on the wagon because most players were already ready to put the lynch through, and given that I thought there was 1 SK there would be 2 Mafias and therefore they would most likely not be on there together.

[Toomai]

Smudger: If you weren't spoiled before you started, did you believe or disbelieve the Doctor claim as you were reading?

I also feel you somewhat missed how Infinity suddenly decided I was town. To me it stopped being potential distancing there and started being flailing.

I agree that Zhero hasn't done much, but Daemon hasn't either, and his extrahammer and murky posts don't look good on him.

Vote: Daemon385

[Toomai]

[...] it seems to me like you're placing an undue amount of weight on MD's list.

Yeah I'm kinda thinking we shouldn't care too much about his list either. It may be from a town player but he protected his third-scummiest read and his play in general has been agreed as pretty poor. That said, I don't really think Smudger is putting "undue weight" on it. Slight bias maybe.

For the record, my list is currently something like this:

Haschel Cedricson

Feel It

Smudger

2birds1stone

Zhero

Daemon385

[Toomai]

Okay I'll add s'more work.

Haschel Cedricson

Has seemed generally town throughtout; has done nothing scummy and does good hunting.

Feel It

Also looks to be comprised of good posts and town reasoning.

Smudger

I was rather clueless on his predecessor, but he looks to be starting to make up for it.

2birds1stone

Has shown okay town-motivation in 106, 178, 225 and 240, but the D2 hammer looks bad as does 286's intentional vagueness. Overall leaning town.

Zhero

Just hasn't done much. 235 is his only real townpost.

Daemon385

I see waffling and emptyposting in 131, 172, and 173. 282 parrots my 275.

[Toomai]

[...] the other part of me is pointing out that most of it can be put down fairly simply to bad/suboptimal/unusual play.

Which parts can't you link to being bad? Those I might be able to explain.

Daemon and replacementguyman need to show up.

[Toomai]

Can I get an explanation on why I am scummy? I haven't really heard any good reasoning yet.

I see waffling and emptyposting in 131, 172, and 173. 282 parrots my 275.

[Toomai]

Yeah 112 really is not sheeping; it's common to ask specific players for their reads when you're not satisfied with what they're giving you.

[...] his play there strikes me as more together than it is here

I actually only had it together like an origami collection in a hurricane, but yes is it a bit worse with this game, because all my scumreads are dead. The only reason I'm calling people "scum" is because they're "least town".

Also,

[...] the other part of me is pointing out that most of it can be put down fairly simply to bad/suboptimal/unusual play.

Which parts can't you link to being bad? Those I might be able to explain.

Nope, don't like this post at all.

Because I appear to be using my below-averageness as an excuse?

[Toomai]

wat

Your first post in three days is filler? Really? Why do you not post any insight on the discussion since then?

I've skimmed (very lightly skimmed, mind) day one of his newbie games, and iso'd him in those games,

anything in particular you want to share with us to back it up?

No.

So you re-evaluate a read based on meta and decline to give concrete examples as to why, okay.

[Toomai]

I think I am right with that, point being that if Daemon is scum as Toomai suspects, then there was a bus being created by Infinity on Daemon and Toomai is maintaining that bus, if Toomai is scum as 2birds believes. However if Daemon is being set up here and is in fact town then, on that basis, flip the list that Toomai has posted as his reads, then it would point to the fact that HC is his buddy, If Toomai is scum. Therefore it would seem to me, based on the reads from Inifinity's ISO, that Toomai is indeed scum as suspected by 2birds and therefore 2birds read is correct.

You summarize reads that show indecision over a given player, lay out two situations that you believe to be true should that player be scum, and then determine that yes you believe that player to be scum. I don't really follow how this logic is connected.

[Toomai]

possible SK

HOLY FUCKING SHIT WHY DOES THIS THING KEEP GETTING BROUGHT UP?

Well, it does happen to be a possibility (a remote one, but still there). The way it was brought up though was of course as bad as the rest of the post.

I can't find anything wrong with the ketchup post, it all looks good and townish and mostly mirrors my opinions.

[Toomai]

[...] shpeal[...]

Indeed your spheal was bad. Half of the first paragraph is all empty generalities and appeal to emotion, and paragraphs 3 and 4 were fence-sitting as all get out. Your OMGUS-ish vote doesn't help your cause.

[Toomai]

• Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
  • ...
  • Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
  • ...

Pseudovote: Smudger

for bringing up the idea of redirection in a Normal game. I find it extremely hard to believe a town player would do this, and am only not officially voting because this is more than likely LyLo and not everyone has shown up for this day yet.

[Toomai]

Just to be clear: While "ignorance of standards" is part of my reasoning, more important is how his first idea for solving the claim discrepancy was "there's a redirection role" and not "you are fakeclaiming", and even when he does bring up fakeclaiming he's just "that is a possibility".

[Toomai]

I could only do that once btw investigate someone.

He claimed 1-shot.

He also claims he got a "vanilla result", which would imply Role Cop more than Cop, yet this

sort of scuppers my big announcement that Toomai is not scum??

...which implies Cop (since a "vanilla result" says nothing for alignment). And if indeed he had been redirected to HC (which we know is not possible, but was his original claim), he wouldn't have gotten a "vanilla result". It doesn't add up.

[Toomai]

Well, Toonami is now in the clear.

Really? I didn't think we could say that. There could have been 3 Mafia, since we hadn't yet figured out what that extra kill N1 was about, in which case I would simply be "less likely" and not "clear". To say I was cleared would assume 2 Mafia. Only now do we know this for sure.

N1 track was Toomai (nothing incriminating, which is part of the reason I've allowed myself to be derailed from his lynch so easily)
N2 track was Zhero (nothing incriminating; that's RedCoyote's slot according to the first post)

Therefore, there has been only 1 Mafia alive since Twilight 1, and someone had to make half of N1's double kill. I am therefore 100% cleared. RC is also basically cleared unless the Mafia chose to no-kill N2, which would make absolutely no sense, since the Mafia knew they had to look for this other killing role and had just mislynched the Doctor.

I feel there is only one choice.

Vote: Feel It