Mini 1468: Legends of the Hidden Temple- Game Over!

[serrapaladin]

Hey guys. We're lynching between Majiffy, mollie, and me today? Oh dear...

I'm not scum AP, sorry to disappoint.

I'll do a bit of reading, but Majiffy wagon doesn't look bad. Grimgroove was still monologuing in the QT and wanted Majiffy, qwints and AP to hang, although that was about two weeks ago. I probably won't have time to read all of it tonight, but let me see how far I get.

[serrapaladin]

lol Majiffy, you're voting me

[serrapaladin]

Up to the SC lynch I have mollie/Venmar as town and enomis/AP as scum. The jury's still out on Majiffy and his premature challenge, but I sort of want to say town, too. I don't like Venmar's challenge and AP 'fakehammer', the first seems orchestrated and his resulting AP-townread from the second looks fake. Wis might also be scum.

I don't like this challenge thing, it seems to be unnecessarily focussing discussion too early in the day. Can't we just play this like a normal game of nightless/mountainous?

I'll do more reading tomorrow morning, but there'd better be something to change my opinion on mollie or jiffy, otherwise this looks pretty bleak...

[serrapaladin]

Right, I'm back with more reading. The NS wagon makes me feel a bit better about Wis and worse about Venmar. Also, enomis' 1374 is really town. qwints is scummy right off the bat, I don't see both AP and qwints though...

Amrun makes a very good point about Majiffy not particularly pushing his scumread on Amrun/SD.

Grim agrees that mollie is being too genuine to be scum, so I really quite like her as my strongest townread, sorry majiffy.

Venmar is gradually getting worse. Works as scum with AP.

seraphic's replace in is townie, not wanting to be the tie break in 2522 is uber genuine.

With 113 pages I really don't have it in me to start metadiving. Can someone tell me whether/how much AP-scum busses?

What the hell was that challenge Majiffy?

Venmar is pretty scummy. Outrage at Elyse lynch is really fake. (Which of course mollie points out too. Because she's town.)

Majiffy, did you know my slot was VLA when you challenged?

Unless this is some insane gambit by a Majiffy/mollie scumteam, I'm not quite sure where Majiffy is going with this. As either alignment, to be fair.

[serrapaladin]

I

[serrapaladin]

I swear that wasn't the submit button...


I don't want to vote mollie. I don't particularly want to vote Majiffy either, but I guess I don't really have a choice. I won't vote until we've had some discussion about people that aren't Majiffy/me, and I would really encourage no one to challenge tomorrow until we basically know who we want to lynch.


My current reads are:

Town
sera
mollie
Wis
Majiffy
AP
qwints
Venmar
Scum

[serrapaladin]

Actually, put mollie ahead of sera, I think.

[serrapaladin]

I'm not certain they can't be buddies, but AP's response to qwints' replacement posts just didn't seem like they were buddies.

pppedit: He DID challenge a group with a scum in it though, so whats wrong with Qwints pointing that out?

You can't be serious now. You agree that Venmar deserves towncredit for the NS lynch in any way?

Qwints has been in the game for less than a day and you are grilling him over notes hes making on a 65 page game.

If his notes sounds like IIoA, its probably because he just replaced into a clusterfuckery of a game and is trying to keep the timeline of events clear in his head

(a null tell) and noted that Venmar made the challenge for later reference. Its not like hes townreading Venmar really strongly for that, wtf?

P-edit: lol fuck you too. Everything qwints has said really hasn't made much of an impression either way except the fact that he willingly auditing himself in the thread is a light towntell.

Basically posts like this one. (The bold could very well be scum-AP buddying town-qwints.)

Venmar/qwints/Majiffy is possible. I'd think AP/qwints/Venmar over AP/qwints/Majiffy.

What makes you so sure about Majiffy-scum? Do you think it's possible there's no scum in today's lynchpool?

[serrapaladin]

What do you think of Venmar's challenge on you? It just doesn't fit the narrative...

[serrapaladin]

Why do you think I'm scum? And what's your current read on Wis?

[serrapaladin]

Tell me what I'm being dumb about then

[serrapaladin]

How I wish I could vote you right now... screw Majiffy and his challenge.

[serrapaladin]

Too many of his scumbuddies are on it already?

[serrapaladin]

Tell me though, Venmar. What sparked your interest?

[serrapaladin]

He deflects with snarky comments instead of presenting actual arguments.

You mean like half this player list?

Keeping an eye on Serra, though, as Grim was still sketchy to me due to the whole QT fiasco...but harder to tell when someone replaces in, unfortunately.

I do think that QT thing was a simple misunderstanding. Either way, I don't really see what you think Grim would have had to gain from deliberately misrepping town-coug like that.

Although I don't completely agree with wisdom's view, there is something off about Majiffy's challenge. The mollie scumread came more or less out of nowhere (and really didn't have enough support to justify a challenge), and there's no way I'm buying that Majiffy challenged Grim because "it was the popular opinion".

Venmar, why are you so scummy?


He's not at L-1 any more, and I'm still not voting mollie, so I might as well

VOTE: Majiffy

I'm not sure how to feel about qwints not bringing Majiffy back to L-1 after declaring to hammer...

[serrapaladin]

Like hell he does. I'm at L-2 and with Venmar's hovering vote I might as well be at L-1.

That's not the point at which town thinks: "whelp, seems I'm not getting my actual scumread lynched, so let me just intent to hammer the counterwagon".

[serrapaladin]

@Venmar: Cool story bro.

In our QT, in the run up to his lynch coug said that it looks as though he'll die soon and he asked Grim to keep posting in the QT if coug is lynched. Grim took this as AtE from coug to convince Grim he's town. I think both coug's request and Grim's take were reasonable.

Maybe Im jaded cause literally every game Day has had the same bullshit happen.

I get that it's shit if you don't get your scumreads lynched, and I suppose all I can do is tell you that you're barking up the wrong tree and to stop tunnelling. Grim's last QT post actually shows quite a bit of frustration at the fact that he's engaging with this game a lot, and has reads he's confident in, but still seems to attract so many scumreads from people, not all of whom can be scum.

@Majiffy: from what I've seen of your game, doing something because people want you to isn't really your style. Did you actually think you had a good chance at getting mollie lynched when you challenged?

[serrapaladin]

AP, what do you think about the posts by enomis/sera that I said I found genuine?

[serrapaladin]

And Majiffy, do you have any good reasons for scumreading mollie besides her avoidance of this thread? Did you just expect people to sheep your 40 games worth of experience?

[serrapaladin]

Have you read any game with Majiffy? He's actually like this...

Besides Majiffy and me, is there anyone you'd consider for scum?

[serrapaladin]

Still not going to engage with me?

[serrapaladin]

UNVOTE:

:/

[serrapaladin]

So now you decide to vote for me?

Worryingly, the last 15 or so pages actually do make more sense with Majiffy as town. And yet mollie's ISO for the first 70 or so pages really makes me think she's town... I'm not particularly willing to just sheep Majiffy, so I really have no idea what we should do today.

There's the off-chance that they're both scum, but that'd be a pretty ridiculous move by Majiffy.

[serrapaladin]

Do you read mollie as town as well then?

[serrapaladin]

Majiffy, you know you're really not convincing people, so I really don't get why you insist on being smug about this.

[serrapaladin]

Serra, are you saying you think all 3 people in the pool right now are town?

Well, maybe...

For Majiffy to be scum, he either needs to be pulling a crazy gambit with his scumbuddy mollie, or he challenged her in the hope that people would still lynch me. In the latter case, I really think it would have been easier and safer to just go after me directly.

For mollie to be scum, my strongest townread throughout the first half of the game has to be wrong.

I don't particularly like either. I really have a problem with the wagon distribution though.

If Majiffy is scum, surely there would be someone bussing at the moment. I don't think it'd be sera or mollie, so that would mean Majiffy/Wis, which would surprise me.

If Majiffy is town and right about mollie, scum would be mollie and 2 out of qwints/AP/Venmar, which sort of makes more sense. Except that I think mollie is town.

Or maybe all three scum are actually on my wagon. Scum have daytalk, right? So I guess scum coordination will be different than in standard games.

Whichever way, I would much prefer to be able to vote someone that isn't mollie or Majiffy.

Wisdom, do you actually think all scum are currently voting for me?

[serrapaladin]

Yeah, but he claimed that he challenged so he could see mollie's reaction, which I'm inclined to believe. I suppose that leaves the question of why he challenged my slot in particular to test mollie, but Grim was sort the next most obvious target. If town-Majiffy did want to go after mollie, I don't see why he would have challenged anyone different.

[serrapaladin]

Look, I know what you're saying, but why the whole sidetracking thing with mollie?

All it did was antagonise her and bring him closer to being lynched. I think had he either not challenged at all, or challenged my slot and gone after grim hard, he would be in better standing now. Surely he must have anticipated taking flak for the challenge, so that just sounds like arbitrary and frankly bad play for scum-Majiffy.

[serrapaladin]

And see, I really don't buy that no scum would be bussing Majiffy at this point.

[serrapaladin]

AP, would you please define in what way you're using the word "posturing". I'm getting the impression it's more a buzzword for you than anything else. Also, could you make sure you write both r's in serra (or else call me SP, or pala, or something).

I don't really like voting against my individual reads, but unless they're both town, this way round makes more sense.

VOTE: mollie

AP, if you're convinced Majiffy is town, why are you disregarding his read on mollie?

[serrapaladin]

Fair enough, that's not quite how I've heard it used, but fine.

If Majiffy is scum, I say that I think he's being bussed because in my experience if there's a wagon on scum that's lasting more than a few pages, there'll almost invariably be scum on that wagon. It's obviously just a heuristic, but it's served me well.

Similarly, I'd argue there'll have been at least 1 scum on the NS wagon, so something like mollie/venmar/sera just seems very unlikely.

[serrapaladin]

Ugh, I do still think this is probably mollie being town :/

If Majiffy really is scum, why, out of all people, would he decide to go after you? If he's scum, I think that's literally one of the worst things he could have done. You were townreading him before that right? So why would he do that? Why pick you to outargue, when he could have just gone straight for my lynch?

[serrapaladin]

Actually no, screw this. I still want to say they're both town, but if I'm wrong about one, I'd rather have it be scum-mollie looking too town to be scum than scum-Majiffy's actions being bad play for scum. If that means I just let scum-mollie AtE me off a good vote then I apologise, but I'm more comfortable with this:

VOTE: Majiffy

[serrapaladin]

Besides Majiffy, who do you currently see as scum? Do you think there was any scum on the Majiffy wagon when it was going strong?

[serrapaladin]

Wait, what? When did you change your mind?

[serrapaladin]

??

[serrapaladin]

Go on.

[serrapaladin]

Eh, the burden of proficiency tell by qwints sucks, and I have no idea what sera sees in Majiffy's last post. It really wasn't saying anything new.

This game...

[serrapaladin]

he immediately places a vote on me to test "my reaction" but I don't get from what he has said that he was even interested in my reaction.

This isn't a lie, it's just a different interpretation of Majiffy's actions. You realise scum-Majiffy could want the appearance of pressuring mollie without actually caring about her reaction, right? I'm not saying she's necessarily right about this, but it's certainly not a lie.

[serrapaladin]

But you literally just said you think she lied. If you just think her dealing with accusations seems like scum-mollie then fine, but calling it a lie that she's been interpreting Majiffy's intention differently to you is a bit of a misrep.

[serrapaladin]

Sorry Majiffy if you end up being right about mollie I messed up...

Guys, can we please not challenge anyone yet?

ffs.

[serrapaladin]

@mod: if there were no scum in the lynchpool for today, would you just call the game?

[serrapaladin]

Venmar, you scum?

[serrapaladin]

meh. number 3?

[serrapaladin]

Come on, guys, this is game, right? That quickhammer was obviously timed.

[serrapaladin]

mollie/ap/qwints then?

[serrapaladin]

Congrats guys. mollie, you had me completely fooled. I guess I need to go back to listening to logic more, which said Majiffy wasn't scum. Sorry, Majiffy

I think the challenge thing made this more difficult than a standard nightless.

Thanks for modding, Haschel!

[serrapaladin]

I'm starting to wonder how true the site-meta about balancing neighbours is.

I mean, I get that theoretically an excellent town neighbour, SHOULD be able to discern their neighbour's alignment through direct question, but I think I have yet to see that happen. Good scumhunters will be able to hone in on their target in thread almost as good as they could in a neighbourhood, so I don't really buy the idea that it "amplifies" a players abilities. If anything, I've mostly seen people catch flak for referring to their own QT instead of the thread.

I just modded a game featuring 2 neighbourhoods, a masonry, and a neighbouriser, and it was sort of the general consensus that the neighbourhoods did nothing to shift balance towards town. I do hold that they're a fun addition to games, so I'll certainly keep using them, but I doubt how much they really do for balance.

[serrapaladin]

The modding was excellent. Flips and VC's were all accurate and on time.

I really think the best way to play the setup would be to pseudo-vote until a majority is reached, and only then challenge, which is a bit unfortunate. I don't see a reason to prematurely limit the lynch pool. The sets of neighbourhoods thing is cool, though.

I had NS/AP/qwints pegged early on, and I think Mollie would have come over time, but still, scum did a good job.