Mini 1468: Legends of the Hidden Temple- Game Over!

[Grimgroove]

Will only be able to get into this game tomorrow. Hi for now!

[Grimgroove]

Catching up with this today! Sorry for the delay

[Grimgroove]

I was not aware we would not know our partner's alignment either

What? Why would you? Is there any set-up where you know your partner's alignment barring the case he's your scumpartner?

[Grimgroove]

Whatever

FoS: Amrun, since suggesting such things usually comes from scum going for cred.

The Amrun-suggestion was bound to be made. Nulltell in my eyes.

pedit: That wouldn't make much sense, then you could simply halve the playerslist or just play as hydra's.

General question: Any guidelines on how to use the private QT properly for scumhunting? I realize it gives you an extra forum in a way, but I don't see why not everything we say could occur here.

[Grimgroove]

The suggestion itself is 100% pro-town. This set-up isn't a mystery so if the plan is adopted, it will be a good plan regardless of the alignment of the originator.

Sure, suggesting it doesn't make me town, since scum also want to appear town. It also doesn't make me scum, either. In fact, traditionally, such suggestions are made far more often by town -- BUT it's still null because the scum motivation for doing it is so cut and dry. So the fact that I suggested a plan should not be treated as a tell in either direction (in my opinion, at least). Analyzing the manner in which I did it is another matter entirely.

I think the above summarizes the first four pages well. Moving on.

And as I said, some people are rude regardless, but it's a perfectly valid reason to not be interested in pursuing you at the moment. That conviction is only strengthened by you arguing with the basis of my townread on you.

I disagree with the reasons for this read. Questioning why people have you as a townread is common practice enough in order to allow scum to adopt it as well.

By the way: where was Wisdom rude?

I also question this early townread of him. Sounds to me like you just want him out of your hairs so you give a soothing townread to try and make him back off. What's wrong with just sticking to the arguments that are to be found in the first quote-snippet of post 94? Why do you feel the need to add a townread of Wisdom this early?

[Grimgroove]

Yeah, I don't agree. That suggestion sounds to me like directing a vengekill, basically allowing scum to direct the challenges and therefore the lynches whatever way they want.

This is a strange turn. First you went from a story where you said Amrun was going for towncred by proposing a town-minded suggestion, but now you state this suggestion is not town-minded at all? Or do I misinterpret this?

But if I understand it correctly, I don't agree with this. Why would it be scum directing the challenges in case we follow Amrun's suggestion? They are in the minority, so they have less ability to influence the challenge process if it happens democratically, or at least not moreso than in games with normal lynch-processes.

What is the alternative? Someone is convinced they have a strong case and challenge the other team? The plus side of this is that the challenger knows his own allignment and doesn't allow interference of others when it comes to narrowing down the lynch-pool, but I don't see the problem in looking for support for this case in the form of pseudo-voting. The case falling apart after the challenge has been made would be bad for everyone.

Forcing two teams with scum-suspects to challenge each other looks like the most productive and transparent way to go.

[Grimgroove]

Town typically doesn't argue bullshit with someone they think is town.

Why wouldn't they? I do it all the time, arguing bullshit sometimes allows you to get the feel of a person, emotions they go through and possibly underlying motivations.
I actually find myself ending up in quite a few bullshit-arguments without really wanting to, but seriously, it happens all the time, for town and scum alike. I'm sure you know that.
Scummy argument to make.

[Grimgroove]

Grim groove, now he likes the plan once I explained it more thoroughly.

Well, that makes my explanation redundant, but not the questions laid before him.
Also, check 275, could you answer the question about your townread on him and your desire to share that so early in the game?

[Grimgroove]

mollie Im starting to scumread you, stop fluffing

I thought the exact same thing when moving to the next page.
Up to and including page 6 pirate mollie is giving me the strongest scumvibes, lack of involvement with the game at hand. The back-and-forth with Wisdom following this comment is not reassuring at all. What is so important about having a talk with Majify first? What is trolleytracking anyway?

Liking Venmar's entrance on page 6.

[Grimgroove]

This is a strange turn. First you went from a story where you said Amrun was going for towncred by proposing a town-minded suggestion, but now you state this suggestion is not town-minded at all? Or do I misinterpret this?

My point was the the suggestion maybe appeared pro-town to most, but it wasn't necessarily so.

I saw you hand out FoS's early on in the game, even before agreeing with this plan. What was the point of those and how are they different from putting bolded votes in this setup?

*Disclaimer: apologies if I repeat things that already have been said/asked, feel free to refer me to earlier posts in case I do. Reached page 7 now.

[Grimgroove]

I'm willing to start challenging people.

Was this serious? Half of the people hadn't even properly participated in the game and you'd already hand out a challenge?

When I said I liked your entrance I was referring to your criticism on Angry Pidgeon's case, but your scumread on Wisdom does not have enough argumentational backing to proclaim such an intent. Who would you have challenged and why?

[Grimgroove]

Yeah as you'll read later we decided to do it via bolding Nominate: (name).

That wasn't the question. At a time where you disagreed with the suggestion (you said it would allow scum to direct the game), you in essence followed the same procedure as the one you disagreed with. How do you feel the FoS's you handed out were different? And if they weren't, why were you disagreeing with a plan that you were following yourself?

[Grimgroove]

P-P-edit:

She really did call herself likely town for the plan

and then defend the plan by pointing to "experience". That is not town motivated.

Part in bold: Not true.
The rest: Don't agree.

[Grimgroove]

No, she did not. She said she was ONE OF the most experienced. She did not claim to be the #1 most experienced, which your dropping "one of" implies. I shouldn't even be arguing semantics with you.

Does it matter if she said the most or one of the most? That's besides the point I was making.

Could you point to where she linked her long experience to being pro-town? It's an argument that obviously doesn't make sense, but I never saw Amrun make it.

[Grimgroove]

wis why are you breaking up all of strange's posts and not just putting them in 1? see this is why I want to talk to majiffy cos to me it looks like scum burying posts. he will know what I am talking about

There are, at most, three scum in this game

Yeah, I stopped reading here.
You're trying to make plans, yet you don't know the number of scum?
It is KNOWN how many scum there are.

I guess this makes you town though, even though I wouldn't put it past you to fake that towntell.

How does this make her town? As you said, both town and scum know there are four Temple Guards?
If anything, I'd regard it as a scumslip. Scum doesn't bother to check the opening post to see how many scum there are. MAybe she just inferred it from the ammount of people present in the scumQT, and if up to that point there were only three there, it could just as easily explain her mistake.
I'm not saying it is a strong scumslip, but it's definitely more of a scumslip than a townslip in my eyes.

[Grimgroove]

wis why are you breaking up all of strange's posts and not just putting them in 1? see this is why I want to talk to majiffy cos to me it looks like scum burying posts. he will know what I am talking about

What is burying posts and what good does it do scum? Some people hate walls, others hate double-posts, but if someone has a lot to share, they have to choose one of both. Do you feel people who post a lot of information are scummy?
Why are you relying so much on Majify in this game? Why can't you make your own conclusions?

[Grimgroove]

Four players will have this appended to the above role PM:

At least, that is what you are pretending to be. In actuality, you belong to a secret society that has vowed to protect the Hidden Temple at all costs. By disguising yourself as an explorer, your duty is to guard the Hidden Temple and make sure the treasure remains undisturbed. Your fellow guards are NAME1, NAME2, and NAME3, and you may talk to them at any time at QUICKTOPIC LINK.

You win when the number of temple guards is equal to the number of explorers.

Ok, good point.
But.
I know it's a stretch but given there's three capitalized names in the PM I wouldn't put it passed anyone to somehow register this as "there's three scum" in their brain, even as scum reading their PM.
How do you explain the mistake from Amnur from a Town point-of-view? Where would she get the number "3" specifically?

[Grimgroove]

^ this was in reply to Wisdom's 294.

[Grimgroove]

Townread on mollie. I don't really see 181 coming from scum.

Why not?

[Grimgroove]

If you don't even read, though, then why you expect to be treated seriously is beyond me.

Okay I read it, and I'll admit it looks better the way you put it now.
I guess there aren't many alternatives anyway, and I guess you have a point that if scum are capable enough to exploit the plan, they are capable enough to win without the plan too.

Do you see any holes in the plan?

THERE IS NO PLAN. THIS IS COMMON SENSE. YOU ARE MILKING TOWNCRED FROM NOTHING.

ffs venmar, how is Amrun not suspicious to you.

How can you not see that it is a plan? It's a systematic approach as opposed to a willy-nilly approach. In one, challenging whenever you feel like it is acceptable behavior; in my plan, that is NOT acceptable behavior. It's a significant departure from playing this game straight.

I find it very striking you're not opposing the statement that you were in fact milking for towncred. What you're saying here is that you actually deserve it.

I didn't really like Angry Pidgeon's case up tothis point, but this response was bad in my eyes.

[Grimgroove]

@ everyone

what do you think of your partner

I was in gchat with majiffy for five minutes before I town read him. although it was probably a little ridiculous to partner majiffy and I together

SafetyDance is obvtown.

I noted that Elyse's read (which turned out to be a joke) was questioned by enomis, but not pirate_mollie's read. Why not?

Pirate_mollie: Could you explain how you reached that read? I hereby refer to my earlier question: is there any guideline/theory on how to use these partner QT's optimally?

Finally got through the topic. I've been through different swings actually in my reads, so not sure if I can already specify those.

@Amrun: Is Wisdom still a townread? Is he your only townread?

Will need to IC StrangerCough later, his posts gave me a bad vibe, but something told me it would be time-intensive to point out the why's and whats, so I'll keep that for a bit later when I got more energy for this game again.

[Grimgroove]

@enomis
I don't know what you want me to say. That's why I asked the question. Sorry if it doesn't fit with your scum lean on me or whatever you're conjuring up.

Ok, one last thing: I feel that was a bit uncalled for.
Are you calling enomis scum for grilling you? Why do you think he's conjuring up stuff? He never directly stated a scumlean on you, why do you interpret his questioning as such? Why do you feel so obviously theatened?

[Grimgroove]

Also, your "scumslip" on Amrun is ridiculous.

You're probably right about that, but it can't hurt to try and scrutinize the supposed townslip either.
Do you agree with Wisdom that it is a townslip? What do you make of the mistake?

Amrun, could you provide an explanation for this mistake yourself? Why haven't you earlier?

[Grimgroove]

@Amrun: sorry, I missed the fact you already answered this question on this page.

Will need to IC StrangerCough later,

Aww, are the allergies flaring up again?

I'd like to know how my partner is concerned about me when he has the energy to put up a case.

I meant ISO, sorry.

Not sure if I'll have a case yet, but the bad vibe is definitely there. I'll just try to explain why it's there.

Why do you assume I'll have a case, and that I'm not just talking about gut?

[Grimgroove]

Of course I'm not milking town cred, which I had already addressed ten billion times. Do I have to repeat myself as nauseum? The whole thing is a farce anyway because I've gotten nothing but patently negative attention for proposing a plan, so who am I supposed to be milking towncred from, exactly?

Just because a plan backfires doesn't mean you can't have had any intentions that were contrary to the result.

Also, please explain how something can be "a little bit" of a scumslip.

I use the term quite loosely. There's gradations when it comes to any kind of slip, and only very few where the conclusion is clear-cut. Usually it's related to certain "mistakes" a player makes, based on prior notions that only scum or town has. In this case, I don't think the mistake was necessarily made by town.

In retrospect: Do you feel your mistake should be considered a townslip? What do you think of people reading you as town because of it?

For the record, I assumed three scum because I've never been in a mini with a 4p scumteam to my recollection and I've been in idk how many games, but easily upwards of 100.

Ok, I was unaware of these traditional ratios, hence the "3" seemed more random than it obviously is.

Yes, wisdom is still a town read. No, he's not the only one but he's the strongest one. His has been relevant to share so far because I think sharing your conclusions after a spat with someone is helpful, at least most of the time.

Could you reiterate why he's your strongest townread?

[Grimgroove]

By challenging any other team, you automatically include your partner in the possible pool of lynches, so in a way you can.

[Grimgroove]

Yes, I'd call that a stretch :p

[Grimgroove]

I would rather not re- explain my town read on Wisdom because I've already explained it far more than I usually like to explain early town reads. Nothing has changed. The concepts are not difficult. If something in particular confuses you, ask a particular question.

Does the quote in bold constitue your reasons for Wisdom-town, or are there additional arguments that I missed?
In case this is it, you can find my doubts surrounding this read just under it.

And as I said, some people are rude regardless, but it's a perfectly valid reason to not be interested in pursuing you at the moment. That conviction is only strengthened by you arguing with the basis of my townread on you.

I disagree with the reasons for this read. Questioning why people have you as a townread is common practice enough in order to allow scum to adopt it as well.

Of course plans can have contrary results. That wasn't my point.

I just answered your own question. If my answer was besides the point, you should have asked a different question.

My point was that I have ready exhaustively explained that I wasn't milking towncred and, in fact, should not be given town cred for it. I already addressed a post to ap about it so objecting to not doing it for like the third time is lala land mudslinging in my eyes.

Lala land mudslinging? What is that? Who is doing that?

As for my supposed slip, to be frank, I would probably view it as a town tell if someone else had done it. Not a town SLIP, something that is cut and dry, but something that makes someone marginally more likely to be town. But it's not difficult to manufacture so calling it null is maybe safer. That's the only way it would come from scum (purposefully). Only the dumbest of scum would not know how many partners they had.

Thank you for this clarification, I now understand your confusion about my use of the word "slip". In my eyes, there haven't been any slips in this game so far,a ccording to your definition.

[Grimgroove]

I'm not making any friends here obviously

Actually, this isn't a laughing matter. It makes me a bit sad

No, that's not the only reasons for Wisfom town. He attacked a player with an earlier join date etc. with unknown skill (to him) very aggressively in a way that I think is indicative of town. He was also quick to admit he was wrong even when I was still under fire from other parties.

The "attacking a player with an earlier join date"-argument was already nullified by Wisdom himself. Why do you stick to it? This kind of argument suggest tha any newbie attacking anyone is pro-town per definition. doesn't make much sense, you seem to value join dates a bit too much and I don't just say this because I'm fairly new myself.. But personally I don't really consider join dates as relevant when deciding on how to act towards someone.

I don't particularly care if you agree with my town read, though.

Why not? Are my reads in general irrelevant to you? If so, why?
I don't fully understand what it is I've done that warrants such an agressive tone.

"La la land mudslinging" is my slang for throwing nonsensical shit at someone and hoping it sticks. In this case, I was referring to you, though I also think it's true of AP (and moreso).

I have not thrown shit, I have merely asked questions based on an initial reading, in order to integrate myself within this game through discussion and Q&A-rounds. Sorry if me asking for things that have been said is experienced as bothersome or mudslinging, but I did add a disclaimer that one should feel free to refer to earlier posts in case I missed something.

Catching up on 11 pages can be done in different ways, apparently I did it wrongly but bygones are bygones.

[Grimgroove]

I thought the exact same thing when moving to the next page.
Up to and including page 6 pirate mollie is giving me the strongest scumvibes, lack of involvement with the game at hand. The back-and-forth with Wisdom following this comment is not reassuring at all. What is so important about having a talk with Majify first? What is trolleytracking anyway?

She wanted me to fully explain the setup mechanics to her. And trolleytracking is tunneling.

Mollie is town, move on.

Not taking your word for it, I hope you understand, but given this mutual stance and your long history together, I'll take this as the two of you belonging to the same alignment.

What is burying posts and what good does it do scum? Some people hate walls, others hate double-posts, but if someone has a lot to share, they have to choose one of both. Do you feel people who post a lot of information are scummy?
Why are you relying so much on Majify in this game? Why can't you make your own conclusions?

Burying posts is overwhelming the thread with more noise than signal while making it look like you're posting content. Adding so much to read to the thread in such a short period of time, and usually with high frequency, makes the town players feel overwhelmed and eventually lazy, which fosters an environment that is pro-scum. Check out the Posh game for a great example of this in action.

Why are you avoiding

me

? I've stated a firm town read on Mollie and you haven't so much as questioned me about one thing, whilst making posts that seem to indicate you have scum feelings for Mollie.

I am avoiding you because you are evidently too magnificent a foe for the likes of me. I think avoiding you will be the best tactic for me to win this game.

Yes, I've seen some posts by mollie that gave me scumvibes. Yours didn't really catch my eye in any way.

[Grimgroove]

now. your questions come across as being a bit useless cos they are persistent and incessant (not to mention repetitive) and seem less like you are trying to determine anyone's alignment from them and more like you just want to look busy which I see as more scum motivated.

I repeated myself only once, when asking about the use of the QT's. I'll use it to my best abilities, or just hope StrangerCoug can use it better and secure a warranted town-read on me.
They seem incessant because I'm making the most of my time online. I don't see the link between "uselessness" and "persistence".
Rest assured I'm trying to determine alignment with these questions. You have your ways and I have mine. Trying to get a feel of the people and the game mechanics, while at the same time establishing my presence here.

I don't like the general ambiance in this topic. Very long toes and very little goodwill/patience.

[Grimgroove]

Yeah, but you can't directly
Yet he answered the question "who would you challenge" with someone that he cannot challenge directly.
I could even see that as a scumslip, tbh. If both Venmar and AP are scum, then obviously they wouldn't care about being partners since they would already be scumbuddies.
But maybe that's a stretch.

Given you're so insistant on this point I want to weigh in on this and agree with others this argument makes little sense. He has a desire to challenge his partner, so what? What would you do if you thought your partner was scum and you were being asked on who you would challenge, Would you not mention your partner at all simply because he's your partner and the game mechanic only allows an indirect approach to formally challenge him?
First of all, there's a thing like the informal challenge, which is far more important. Second, the way around it is not complicated. If you want your partner to be in the lynchpool it's just as easy to do, if not easier. Just challenge anyone and it's done.

If pirate mollie's statement in 91 has any truth in it, this is definitely something to be remebered.

[Grimgroove]

Not taking your word for it, I hope you understand

Does not compute.

I admit my hopes for your understanding were merely ornamental.
Does it compute now?

[Grimgroove]

Yeah, but you can't directly
Yet he answered the question "who would you challenge" with someone that he cannot challenge directly.
I could even see that as a scumslip, tbh.

If both Venmar and AP are scum, then obviously they wouldn't care about being partners since they would already be scumbuddies.

But maybe that's a stretch.

@Wisdom: The thing in bold is crucial to your argument. Do you feel it is convincing if you look at it seperately?
You correctly called me out for assuming scum doesn't pay attention to their PM's, yet here you are assuming something very similar.

[Grimgroove]

I am avoiding you because you are evidently too magnificent a foe for the likes of me. I think avoiding you will be the best tactic for me to win this game.

Yes, I've seen some posts by mollie that gave me scumvibes. Yours didn't really catch my eye in any way.

which posts

and explain why you think they are scummy

It's the posts I brought up during my round of incessant questions. Basically it's mainly related to your earlier period in the game.

Note that there will again be many questions in this thread. Even though one of their aims is that you answer them, a secondary function is that they clarify my thought process and reflect my thoughts about you.

First it started with your fluff for the first six pages or so. I thought it was scummy because it showed no commitment when it comes to moving this game forward.

eta: chill the fuck out

eta2:

cos he is my partner and I do not want to obsessively trolleytrack on him again

Your explanation of this fluff I also found scummy. You said you were waiting to interact with Majify in order to be able to proceed. You say you explained why (the quote above is what I found), but I don't find this explanation satisfactory, and here is why.

First of all, you state that you need to chat with Majify in order to avoid tunneling him. This does not make sense for several reasons, and the lack of sense makes it scummy:
- Why would you tunnel him before interacting with him? You seem to equate "getting into the game before chatting with Majify" with "trolletracking Majify". This doesn't make sense. Why does MAjify have to be your starting point?
- Obviously, getting the read of Majify was just a matter of procedure. 5 minutes was all it took. Then why make such a big deal of it before? If it was just such a short procedure, I don't see why you couldn't get started with other things in the meanwhile until you had it done.
- Why would tunneling him be bad? Considering you read him like an open book, I guess this means that if you do tunnel him, that means he must be scum. Why do you fear trolleytracking MAjify if you later claim to read him easily? The fear seems unfounded given your special connection.

What I also found scummy (now a bit less because MAjify is untroubled by it) was how you seemed to give up your ownership on your own posts and thought processes in post 155 ("cos if I townread him I will probably orient my game around him unless goes after my townreads.") It sounds like we should adress any further questions to Majify instead of to you.

And I'm not sure if it's scummy, but I don't like the attitude you are having here. Yes, I know you won't care, but that doesn't matter. It seems like all you have done so far is secure a townread from Majifyu to cruise through this topic unquestioned and act like big bad-asses, but I'll tell you right now I'm not in the least bit impressed. It could be scummy in the sence that you're maybe trying to paralyze my efforts and you take me for some easily impressionable newbie, but I will not be deterred from my cause of finding scum. If I meet you on the way I'll gladly take Majify with it.

Your macho-prattling in [pos]359[/post] was the most laughable thing I've read since my arrival at Mafiascum. Congratulations.

Where have I been defensive, awfully so?

I did consider Amrun's response as agressive, but that doesn't mean I partuvlarly care about it. It's not a misrep but an honest interpretation. Note I also did not connect any indication of alignment to it. Misreps are made with the aim of painting someone off as scummy. i didn't do such a thing.

[Grimgroove]

Nope. Start townreading Mollie and myself, pronto.

This is mainly in your hands. You've established that you are many things, but I have seen no clear indications that either of you are town.

I seem to have given off the impression I'm a push-over. Sorry for the misunderstanding, please cease any efforts that have this idea in mind.

[Grimgroove]

Grim, I can be, have been, and will be aggressive when and if it suits my mood and/or the game.

Lol, what is up with you people? No need to take yourself so seriously. I get it, you like to roll your muscles.
I didn't mean to tell any of you how to behave, I just gave my view of how I don't really like these "I don't care what you think about me" posts. They are not very engaging.
Maybe it will grow on me, who knows.

Are you always so sensitive to aggression?

Yes, I'm a delicate little flower.

Do you have evidence of this?

Not really. But maybe Elyse can weigh in on this, as she told me I need thicker skin. I recently had a (supposedly over-)sensitive reaction when she called my contributions fluff in another game. But that's is an ongoing game, so you won't be able to get any conclusion alignment-wise based on that, if that's what you're after.

The only game I've been in that's finished was a micro-game together with Wisdom. I don't recall any major bursts of aggression there, the issue was never brought up in any case.

Come to think of it: why is this relevant?

[Grimgroove]

No harm done I think, but I'll keep it in mind. In this case it's probably better Elyse does NOT weigh in on it, in order to not make matters worse.

Will get into your wall now. I started on it earlier, but my computer shut down due to overheating in the middle of it. You can imagine my frustration.

[Grimgroove]

Nope. Start townreading Mollie and myself, pronto.

This is mainly in your hands. You've established that you are many things, but I have seen no clear indications that either of you are town.

I seem to have given off the impression I'm a push-ove

r. Sorry for the misunderstanding, please cease any efforts that have this idea in mind.

^ this is ridiculously overdefensive

Before the wall, maybe this appetizer first: it is not.

Basically Majify is not trying to convince me either of you are town, he's simply TELLING me to believe him. If he truly believes this will work, he must think I'm a push-over. Hence the reaction you bolded.

I did, however, mark a hint of comedy in his edict. I like the occasional laugh just as much as any hyena. This is why I added a similarly silly request, of ceasing certain activities. There was a similar hint of comedy in that request, which mirrored Majify's, and which shows I was not being overly defensive.

[Grimgroove]

It's the posts I brought up during my round of incessant questions. Basically it's mainly related to your earlier period in the game.

you mean those posts where your questions were already answered by the time you got to the end of the thread? you asked questions but you never stated why you found those posts scummy.

I realize I didn't. This was merely an introduction to the answers you were looking for. I'm glad to see you found them right after making this redundant remark.

Note that there will again be many questions in this thread. Even though one of their aims is that you answer them, a secondary function is that they clarify my thought process and reflect my thoughts about you.

First it started with your fluff for the first six pages or so. I thought it was scummy because it showed no commitment when it comes to moving this game forward.

I want you to post which posts you find scummy and explain why. you don't just get to sit back and call all of my posts until p6 scummy unless you can think of a scum motivation for doing so. fluff posts are alignment neutral unless they persist throughout the game.

I found the posts scummy because they were fluff.
I find fluff scummy because of the reason in the snippet you just quoted of me: lack of commitment to get the game forward.
Doing what you ask me to do would basically boil down to me showing why your first posts were all fluff. An unnecessary exercise, considering how you agree with that.

here is a game where every single one of posts were "fluffy" until d2:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=25693

in fact, I think I made only 1 post with content and that was to point out that we had a missing kill and that I blocked nacho. flawless town victory. I trolled the fuck out nacho while I was looking for his partner in fact, I think the post that I outed was the only non fluff post in the game other than my guille vote.

Sorry, I don't care much about meta-arguments. Definitely with a person with your gaming history: I'm sure you have a mafiagame where the scenario benefits your defense for many different occasions, obviously including this one.

Oh, and to beat you to it: the reason I pointed to other games myself when Amrun was asking me for evidence that I don't react well to aggression is precisely because she asked me. I'm assuming she didn't want a psychiatric report. If people ask me to provide them with my meta I'll do so, but I'll never use it as an argument myself.

what is weird is that you read on me should have progressed as you got caught up with the game. and it hasn't. you are still scumreading me cos of early posts. do you know who are sticky with their reads in lieu of gathering and assimilating new information? scum that is who.

Yes, that's all fine and dandy, but I don't really have a scumread on you. You're null. I never claimed otherwise.
I probably gave you this impression because I just listed all your scummy posts and told you why I thought they were scummy. Why I did that? Oh, because you asked me to.
There have been positive vibes coming from your slot as well. Sometimes I posted something, and when I continued rereading I saw you sometimes make the same remark or thought process as I would. MAybe you considered this mere repetition from my part, but from my PoV this made me feel better about you in the later stage of the game. Apart from the bad ass image you are trying to portray, that is.

My computer is heating up again and I don't want to lose what I already typed (again), so I'll go ahead and post this and get to the rest of the wall in the following post.

[Grimgroove]

I'll get into the rest of the wall tomorrow. Sorry but I'm just too tired.

[Grimgroove]

Nope. Start townreading Mollie and myself, pronto.

This is mainly in your hands. You've established that you are many things, but I have seen no clear indications that either of you are town.

I seem to have given off the impression I'm a push-ove

r. Sorry for the misunderstanding, please cease any efforts that have this idea in mind.

^ this is ridiculously overdefensive

Actually I read it as more passive-aggressive snark.

I guess it was, and maybe I should apologize. I was in a state of defiance after reading remarks of me being eaten alive and getting crushed if I'd get anywhere near you. I tend to use sarcasm a lot, which is meant to be taken lightly as I just think it's a funny instrument. I'm going to refrain from making any further comments on this topic (also with reference to pirate_mollie's wall from which I will omit certain segments for precisely this reason). This isn't about who is boss, this is about who's scum.

[Majiffy]'s simply TELLING me to believe him. If he truly believes this will work, he must think I'm a push-over.

False. I truly believe it will work if you have any semblance of competence at this game. Consider it a reaction test of how good you are.

Then I guess I'm a bad player, because I really don't see why you simply saying "Read us as town" should immediately result in actually reading you as town. I don't understand why you're making me spell out something this obvious.
Why are you reaction testing for how good players are? Won't that become clear over the course of the game? Why do you want to know if I'm a good player or not?

[Grimgroove]

Before the wall, maybe this appetizer first: it is not.

yes. it is. mebbe you don't understand what overly defensive is

No comment.

Basically Majify is not trying to convince me either of you are town, he's simply TELLING me to believe him. If he truly believes this will work,

he must think I'm a push-over

. Hence the reaction you bolded.

he never said this nor did he imply that you were a "pushover". majiffy says that to everyone hence the avvie title "go with the flow". click on his sig (flowchart), he really does believe that shit. he could think you are the hercules of mafia and he would still say that.

Don't know his meta. The only people who would read him or you as town simply because he says so are pushovers in my book, so him seriously thinking and believing I would respond positively to his request does imply that. You say it doesn't and maybe you're right, but my interpretation was not as farfetched or overdefensive (remind me to look up this difficult word) as you're making it out to be.

I did, however, mark a hint of comedy in his edict. I like the occasional laugh just as much as any hyena. This is why I added a similarly silly request, of ceasing certain activities. There was a similar hint of comedy in that request, which mirrored Majify's, and which shows I was not being overly defensive.

you are seriously playing this little game inside your head that doesn't seem to have a lot to do with reality. majiffy was being serious. like he really does believe you should just accept what he says at face value. he isn't really joking.

My mistake.

[Grimgroove]

Part Two of 379.

Your explanation of this fluff I also found scummy. You said you were waiting to interact with Majify in order to be able to proceed. You say you explained why (the quote above is what I found), but I don't find this explanation satisfactory, and here is why.

except me saying I want to interact with majiffy is not "fluff". there is motivation behind it as in I want to get a read on him asap.

"Asap" is a notion that's out of your hands. Not getting into the game while you're waiting for yourt chat with him does not speed up getting a read on Majify.
It's like not wanting to read a book while you wait for the bus, because you want to leave as soon as possible. That motivation makes no sense.

First of all, you state that you need to chat with Majify in order to avoid tunneling him. This does not make sense for several reasons, and the lack of sense makes it scummy:
- Why would you tunnel him before interacting with him? You seem to equate "getting into the game before chatting with Majify" with "trolletracking Majify". This doesn't make sense. Why does MAjify have to be your starting point?

erm, your interpretation does not make sense. it is implicit that I want to get an early read so I don't spend the whole game paranoid over him like I sometimes do. he gave me that town signal right off the fucking bat and it was beautiful cos I am fairly certain he is town. and we work well together when we are both town even though we have a tendency to fight over our reads.

Could you explain in more detail how this quick townread came to be? Maybe it could convince all of us?
My interpretation does make sense. Step-by-step:

- You post fluff until you had a talk with Majify.
- You want to talk to Majify because you don't want to tunnel him.
=> You post fluff because you don't want to tunnel Majify.
You consider tunneling Majify the only alternative to posting fluff before he gets to posting.

- Obviously, getting the read of Majify was just a matter of procedure. 5 minutes was all it took. Then why make such a big deal of it before? If it was just such a short procedure, I don't see why you couldn't get started with other things in the meanwhile until you had it done.

I am not the one who is making a big deal over it you and wis were. I also wanted him to explain the set-up to me cos I frankly didn't understand it. the obtainment of the read took a lot less time than I thought it would.

You brought it up as the reason for your fluff and why it wasn't scummy, so you're the one who made this a central element in our discussions.

- Why would tunneling him be bad? Considering you read him like an open book, I guess this means that if you do tunnel him, that means he must be scum. Why do you fear trolleytracking MAjify if you later claim to read him easily? The fear seems unfounded given your special connection.

did you miss the part where I said, "again"? I am guessing you did. I am just going let you work that one out on your own, by your sarcasm I am guessing you can!

Well, you've been sending mixed messages on how easily you read him. Now you claim it was rather exceptional that you read him this easily and quickly, yet in an earlier post you said this:

@ everyone

what do you think of your partner

I was in gchat with majiffy for five minutes before I town read him.

although it was probably a little ridiculous to partner majiffy and I together

.

I think it would be veryhelpful if you clarified how you got the mutual townread off eachother.

What I also found scummy (now a bit less because MAjify is untroubled by it) was how you seemed to give up your ownership on your own posts and thought processes in post 155 ("cos if I townread him I will probably orient my game around him unless goes after my townreads.") It sounds like we should adress any further questions to Majify instead of to you.

how the fuck did you get

that

interpretation out of what I said? why would you ask majiffy questions that you wnt me to answer? that doesn't even make sense.

You said you'll orient your game around him. What do you mean by that? I took it as him being your primary source of information and reads. So if the time would come that you are being questioned, you'd orient your defense around Majify as well. In short I thought you were saying you'd be sheeping him as soon as you read him town. Please tell me how I should read it then.

And I'm not sure if it's scummy, but I don't like the attitude you are having here. Yes, I know you won't care, but that doesn't matter. It seems like all you have done so far is secure a townread from Majifyu to cruise through this topic unquestioned and act like big bad-asses, but I'll tell you right now I'm not in the least bit impressed. It could be scummy in the sence that you're maybe trying to paralyze my efforts and you take me for some easily impressionable newbie, but I will not be deterred from my cause of finding scum. If I meet you on the way I'll gladly take Majify with it.

lol. if I thought you were some easily impressionable newb don't you think that I would be coddling you like you want me to? I don't think you are stupid, just new, so I am not going to treat you like you are stupid. is that okay?

Ok.

Your macho-prattling in [pos]359[/post] was the most laughable thing I've read since my arrival at Mafiascum. Congratulations.

you know what I find laughable? that you are scumreading me cos you think I didn't show commitment by p6 and we are now on p13 and

you have yet to cough up a single read

. I don't think I am the one with commitment issues here. <----- that is laughable.

I thought you thought I had a scumread on you?

By now, the scummyvibes you were giving me in the start, are back. So I've got a scumread on you. Through association I've got a scumread on Majify as well. The main reason right now is the unexplained read on one another. You could be scumpartners trying to power your way through as a tandem. In the worst case, a mislynch on one of you would leave us with a conftown for the rest of the game, which seems like a pretty good trade-off.
I don't really have much strong reads yet, I got caught up in this discussion with you, and my read-through didn't provide me with any striking reads except for that parts that I mentioned.
Overall you, Majify and Angry Pidgeon lean scum.
Enomis and StrangerCoug are null, leaning scum.
Elyse is null leaning town. So is Venmar.
Wisdom looks town to me, also because of the way he insisted on holding on to that untenable argument of Venmar scumslipping. I think scum would have realized earlier this argument does not make sense. In this regard I want to ask you if you were serious when saying that Wisdom makes stupid arguments as scum.
NobodySpecial and SafetyDance are null due to lack of activity.
Amrun leans town for me as well. I was worried for a bit since I had the impression she was trying to get a big bag o' towncred, but she convinced me this isn't the case.

Where have I been defensive, awfully so?

you have been defensive in this very post, lol

How so?
Also, I didn't realize you were a clairvoyant. Where was I overdefensive before you said I was being overdefensive?

I did consider Amrun's response as agressive, but that doesn't mean I partuvlarly care about it. It's not a misrep but an honest interpretation. Note I also did not connect any indication of alignment to it. Misreps are made with the aim of painting someone off as scummy. i didn't do such a thing.

well I don't know what your intentions since you have not given a read on amrun I am just giving you my honest interpretation.

Glad we got that sorted out then.

[Grimgroove]

I realize I didn't. This was merely an introduction to the answers you were looking for. I'm glad to see you found them right after making this redundant remark.

wat

I fucking can't follow what the hell you are saying at all. like I am not even sure what kind of convoluted point you are trying to make here.

You said I hadn't answered to your questions while responding to a quote where I did so a few paragraphs later.

I found the posts scummy because they were fluff.
I find fluff scummy because of the reason in the snippet you just quoted of me: lack of commitment to get the game forward.
Doing what you ask me to do would basically boil down to me showing why your first posts were all fluff. An unnecessary exercise, considering how you agree with that.

dude. read what I am trying to tell you. not all fluff posts come from scum. <----------- are you following me here? what it comes down to is motivation of posts and body of work.

I follow you, but I don't agree with you that in this case your fluff was obviously not scummy. As I explained before, the link between your fluff and Majify's absence doesn't make sense to me.

Sorry, I don't care much about meta-arguments. Definitely with a person with your gaming history: I'm sure you have a mafiagame where the scenario benefits your defense for many different occasions, obviously including this one.

read above

Oh, and to beat you to it: the reason I pointed to other games myself when Amrun was asking me for evidence that I don't react well to aggression is precisely because she asked me. I'm assuming she didn't want a psychiatric report. If people ask me to provide them with my meta I'll do so, but I'll never use it as an argument myself.

jesus christ you are not overly defensive at all.

you aren't at all addressing an argument that I haven't even made and is no where near the original point that I was making.

I digressed a bit, but like you said, conversation is a two-way street, and when it comes to my replies I get to decide which points I want to make. I did not ignore your points, I just added to them. Just making my point on meta clear.

Yes, that's all fine and dandy, but I don't really have a scumread on you. You're null. I never claimed otherwise.
I probably gave you this impression because I just listed all your scummy posts and told you why I thought they were scummy. Why I did that? Oh, because you asked me to.

wat. the. fuck.

you are the one who originally posited that I was the only player whom your were getting scummy vibes from.

No.

I asked you to put up or stfu.

Some people would call that overdefensiveness.

all that you have given me is that you cannot seem to differentiate between playstyle and actual scumtells. <---alignment neutral IMO cos I see scum and town both make really dumb arguments with really bad reasoning.

I live and I learn.

There have been positive vibes coming from your slot as well. Sometimes I posted something, and when I continued rereading I saw you sometimes make the same remark or thought process as I would. MAybe you considered this mere repetition from my part, but from my PoV this made me feel better about you in the later stage of the game. Apart from the bad ass image you are trying to portray, that is.

lol, I am not the one running around and going "ack! ack! ack! I am not a pushoveeeeer! " so I hardly think that I am the one who is trying to be a badass here.

do you have any idea how condescending your posts come across? they are pretty insulting and slathered in sarcasm which I am reading as you being overly defensive and I am wondering why. I can't tell if you are some insecure newbtown and who is trying to prove how incredibly secure he is or if you are newbscum who is hedging on reads and trying to argue nonexistant points in order to look busy and and engaged. I find it hard to believe that by now you do not have 1 single read.

See my reply to Majify. Sorry if I seemed condescending, but read your own post 359 and tell me that it wasn't. I guess your first interpretation was correct.

I want a list of your reads.

You got 'em now.

[Grimgroove]

Keep me posted.
Anyone else has got something to say about all of this?

[Grimgroove]

You missed some elements.
What do you think of the strong townread they have on each other? Aren't you wondering where it's coming from?

[Grimgroove]

And equally important: why is pirate_mollie?

I don't know what i think about this. Will discuss with amrun.

Again I have to wonder why you would have to rely on your partner in order to know what to think?
Do you have a read on your partner?

[Grimgroove]

You missed a question there.

[Grimgroove]

Because i am unsure of my read.

Are you confident enough about your Amrun-townread in order to be able to essentially leave your read in her hands? Sorry, but I don't see you as the guy who would normally do such a thing. Why do you think Amrun is in a better position to read what has been going on?
Do you have any other townreads?

[Grimgroove]

It's like he had this whole drawn out conversation with Mollie, knowing she thought she was a scumread of his, and then at the end, he was like "I never said that!"

What would the point of me doing such a thing be?

And it's true, I never said she was a scumread of mine, not counting our latest interaction. How can something that's objectively true be insincere? It's like saying 1+1=2, it doesn't matter if you're sincere about it, it's just truth.

pirate_mollie obviously assumed this because of my string of catch-up posts. I don't know if you've ever seen people catch up on things, but I don't think my procedure was out of the ordinary: go over the topic and quote those posts which strike you as odd. I did exactly this.

[Grimgroove]

I think you clarified your point very well, and your question is legitimate.

Why didn't you just tell her that you didn't have a scumread on her?

I didn't have any read on her at the time. I didn't want to give the impression that I had a townread on her by saying I had no scumread on her. I also didn't want to sound apologetic for mentioning the posts that I did in my catch-up.
These reasons may seem incomplete, but my reaction was also not that thought out in this regard. It was the result of a very natural reaction, even though I realize calling something natural is makes it more unnatural. But it was.

I'll try to make an analogy because you make good ones that help most of the time. Mine will probably suck but oh well.

You mention something about (hm, a controversial topic. let's say abortion). You talk about someone you know getting an abortion and why you don't think it was a good decision. Mollie then asks why you think abortion is bad. You get into this whole argument about it and then you say "I don't think abortion is bad, you just asked me to say the points against it." It would have been much easier if you just said, "I don't think abortion is bad, it was just the wrong decision for the person I know" or something like that.

This analogy is very good. It would have made things easier, but less interesting. My thoughts about abortion have evolved through it, I have clarified why I think certain elements of abortion are bad and invited feedback on those comments, giving me further input for my opinion on abortion.

It wasted time and made you look like you were scumreading Mollie when you weren't. So there wasn't even a real point to the argument. Does that make sense?

It makes sense, but I believe there was a point to the argument: why I thought his posts were scummy and her reaction to these arguments. I didn't mind she thought I thought she was scum, it results in a more involved and passionate discussion.

[Grimgroove]

I think the Silver Snakes being in the challenge pool was bound to happen so I'm not surprised. It was a matter of either AngryPidgeon, pirate_mollie or Majify to start ego-tripping, all of them have the personality to do so. My mistake for rattling their cages I guess.

Of the current lynchpool, I have to say that since pirate_mollie's latest post has started to convince me of the sincerety of her read, I think I'll be voting either my own partner, who seemed to be buddying up to people in the latest posts, or Majify, who simply senses a lot of support for a lynch on me but doesn't have to reasons to back that up. In that case pirate_mollie will be wrong inh er read on her partner, but I won't even begin trying to convince her of that for obvious reasons.

[Grimgroove]

Lol don't have reasons ok.

Are you drunk?

[Grimgroove]

Which position would that be?

[Grimgroove]

Simply give us everything you got on me and spare me the horror of having to go through a point-by-point discussion with you.

[Grimgroove]

You'll conjure something up I'm sure, it just won't be as convincing as you think it to be during your current alcoholorwhatever-high. I'd strongly advise you to already try to give reasons now, because tomorrow it will be too painful for you to do so.

[Grimgroove]

I've iso'd StrangerCoug, haven't got anything on him. A bit of gut but that's it, the buddying I was referring to could simply be genuine agreement.
Bah, Majify broke my game.

[Grimgroove]

@ groovey kid

I am not going to do round of wall wars with you cos tbh I find them boring and tedious. I will do a round or 2 but anything beyond and my brains just shuts down. so I am not going to respond to you point by point, I am just going to go over the highlights.

- I am guessing that eno's response (who was more succinct and more articulate in his explanation than I ever could) as to why someone might want to talk to their partner cos you seem satisfied with the answer. the only thing I would add is that discussing reads with your partner is a good way to bounce off ideas cos one person might see something the other miss. it is 1 of the reasons why I like hydras (I am in 6), cos I have another person to talk to and it helps me to stay grounded. left to my own devices I am likely to be consumed by paranoia, get confused, jump at shadows and make terribad decisions. I am well aware of my strengths and weaknesses in mafia so I try to hydra with people who can balance that out. what I am wondering is why coug has not explained the benefits of having another person to bounce things off of in your qt and why you did not just ask him there instead of bringing it to the thread.

I had hoped you'd respond more specifially to my wall, because that would have showed more clearly if you were trying to understand my point of view of things, but ok. I see the added value in case you can fully trust the other person (like in a hydra), but in this set-up this is not the case. With regards to scumhunting in a 1on1 QT: I don't see how it can be done effectively. MAybe it's lack of experience, maybe it's lack of skill, but I don't see any ways of creating such an atmosphere in a QT where my partner would somehow slip. All the reading can be done in the main topic I think.
To return to my bus metaphor, you have explained why it is important for you to take the bus, yet you still didn't explain why you didn't want to read a book while wiaiting for the bus.

- why I am town reading majiffy: in gchat (and you may or may not understand this) he said, "don't mention ongoing games" cos he thought that I was referring to a game that was in the late stages where we pretty much went 1v1 for 3 game days. I wasn't. I was referring to if I do not get sort him out early I will remain paranoid for the entire game. <----- he came to this conclusion, all on his own through no help from me. the reason why I read tht as pure town was cos his chastisement came from a place where he was genuinely trying to get a read on me and didn't want an outside influence that he could not use. he was genuinely trying to read me where as scum he would already know my alignment. does this make sense?

I don't know, I guess you know him better, I've been told not to discuss ongoing games to in this game by several people, but I don't consider them as town. Enforcing/reminding others of objective rules is more of a null-tell in my eyes.
That explain you reading Majiffy as town. What about the other way around and his read on you? (

@Majiffy

)

I have been playing mafia for a long time just on different sites. I have a different playstyle than most and a very large scumhunting toolbox. sometimes I will flirt, joke, get confrontational, talk about the weather or whatever in order to get players to drop their guard and give up a tell. the whole point is to disarm the player in order to get a read. I base my reads on how people react and try to determine if it comes from a town or scum mindset. I once got uber goober to let down his guard and tell me why scum was keeping me alive in posh. <----- still couldn't get him lynched even though he stated it right there in the thread.

Do you also have a toolbox for when you're scum?

I am simply not everyone's cup of tea and I am pretty sure you will never understand "mollie logic". I don't think like most people and a lot of people scumread me for this but what I have noticed is that it is usually scum who are sticky with their read cos when I am town I freaking scream town.

is there anything else you would like to know

Sticky reads or tunneling has been done by town and scum alike. I don't think this is a strong argument, regardless of whether or not I agree with my read on you actually being sticky.

You discussed mollie logic, what is your impression of Grimgroove-logic?

[Grimgroove]

P-P-edit:

She really did call herself likely town for the plan

and then defend the plan by pointing to "experience". That is not town motivated.

Part in bold: Not true.
The rest: Don't agree.

Yes, she did:

In fact, traditionally, such suggestions are made far more often by town

Grim is not commenting on my alignment but soft-agrees with Venmar's 'case' on me and implies I'm blatantly misrepping events in the thread. I'm basically down to lynch that with no questions asked right now.

I did comment on your alignment: you're my scumread for having a very poor case and trying to sell it as a good one.
And yes, you put 94 way out of context. This is statistics, not an Appeal to Emotion where someone asks you to townread her.
About that last thing: here's your chance. Nice to meet you.

[Grimgroove]

I'm personally fine with either of you going now,

Could you clarify who you mean by "either of you", and the reasons for why you don't care about who goes?

If we all end up as townreads after all of this, I agree it's Majiffy's head that should be rolling. But I want to hear what he has to say for himself once he sobers up.

[Grimgroove]

and presenting them with only one likely option who is a newbie and likely to crack under pressure no matter the alignment.

I appreciate your support in general but this made me cringe. Please don't present me as some kind of defenseless little princess. I'd like to think that despite a certain lack of experience, I would be able to defend myself against accusations.
I've got time and I've got basic intelligence, the only two ingredients you need to not let yourself get run over just so easily.
Like I said, in a way it is reassuring to see that newbies are treated as a player that shouldn't just be lynched just because he's a newbie outside of the Road to Rome, but I don't like the way you're presenting yourself as my knight in shining armor coming to my rescue. The "blood of righteousness"-comment really made it look like that, and it comes eerily close to buddying.

I agree Majiffy's action was anti-town. I think one can hardly debate about that. But scummy? He was obviously drunk (I noticed, asked him, and he said it was so), making an ego-trip as the result of an alcohol-high very likely.

I'd like to see him post sober and see what kind of case he has. I'd also like some kind of sign that he's not going to do this again in a later stage of the game. Having a loose cannon like that in a set-up like this could possibly be detrimental to town.

[Grimgroove]

Does Nobody Special know he is participating in this game?

[Grimgroove]

@pirate_mollie: I feel we're starting to understand each other, but you still did not answer my question that I want answered most. Now that I'm starting to townread you it seems less relevant, but I want this thing covered nonetheless. Truth can be found in the smallest of things.

If I have any sticky read to speak of, it is because you never addressed the original reason why I find the explanation of the initial fluff you posted in a satisfactory way.

Let me re-iterate:

You have stated you post fluff for several reasons:
1. You sometimes use it as a strategy. (you didn't make it clear if that's what you were doing here, nor what the results of that strategy were)
2. You were waiting for your read on Majiffy.

I have tried discussing point 2 with you plenty of times but never got a straight answer. You explained why it is important for you to get a read on Majiffy (which I understand), but you didn't say why this automatically means that you can't get into the game before he arrives.

I don't know how to put this in any clearer way, aside from the bus metaphor. Is my question clear though?

[Grimgroove]

@Amrun concerning my read on Majiffy:

I agree Majiffy's action was anti-town. I think one can hardly debate about that. But scummy? He was obviously drunk (I noticed, asked him, and he said it was so), making an ego-trip as the result of an alcohol-high very likely.

I'd like to see him post sober and see what kind of case he has. I'd also like some kind of sign that he's not going to do this again in a later stage of the game. Having a loose cannon like that in a set-up like this could possibly be detrimental to town.

He's absolutely null to me. All I've got so far are his non-alignment indicative character traits.

[Grimgroove]

He didn't.
And Majiffy cannot read your QT.
Therefore, no. There were no suspicions on Grimgroove for Majiffy to count on.

AngryPidgeon did.
And pirate_mollie didn't seem to like me very much, Majiffy confirmed they were talking about me in their QT.

On the first page AngryPidgeon seemed to imply this is a game-steering trio, so it could have been all the support Majiffy thought to be needing for a succesful lynch.

[Grimgroove]

You do, however, fall under a certain category of newer players that behave a certain way (until they gain some experience).

I don't know if this is more something for post-game discussions, but I'd definitely love to hear more about that.

So far you don't seem to want me lynched because I look like easy newb-bait, but do you also have a townread on me?

[Grimgroove]

I meant in the context of not including Majiffy's scummy challenge which I mentioned earlier. I haven't slept in like a billion hours.

In any case I'm probably mildly incoherent but I essentially meant "coug is my third choice after mollie, who is second fiddle to Majiffy"

P-edit: yes, enomis suspected grim until recently and I'm fairly certain at least someone else did. (

And at one point even I called him out for mudslinging

).

That was you by the way. Lala landmudslinging or something to that effect?

[Grimgroove]

Lol, ok, I misread that, never mind :p

[Grimgroove]

I'm just not comfortable with lynching ANYONE in that fcking lynch pool right now, at least DEFINITELY not today.

Then why are you voting today?

[Grimgroove]

Could people explain their townread on Majiffy please? The growning consensus in this regard seems to indicate I'm missing something very obvious.

[Grimgroove]

I did comment on your alignment: you're my scumread for having a very poor case and trying to sell it as a good one.

No, you hinted at having a read on me by painting me scummy and are now being direct when called out.

Post 388. That's long before you even knew I was in the game.

And you call me out for critisizing one of your posts through my read-through, but what would you expect? When catching up with things you don't just blurt out reads, or at least I don't. You go over posts,

quote those that seem most noteworthy and add comments

, and afterwords give reads based on the total picture. What I just put in bold is what you're calling "hinting at a read and painting you as scummy", which is a very poor interpretation of things, if not a misrep.

[Grimgroove]

but I don't like the way you're presenting yourself as my knight in shining armor coming to my rescue. The "blood of righteousness"-comment really made it look like that, and it comes eerily close to buddying.

Distance from Amrun all you want. I will remain steadfast.

An associative lean will always be self-reinforcing as long as you believe in it.
Care to provide other examples of connections between me and Amrun?

Does Nobody Special know he is participating in this game?

Who cares, hes a lurksack and hes not lynchable atm. This is a prime example of someone doing something to appear pro-town that actually has no motivation behind it.

This is really REALLY obvious guys.

Oh, so everyone who is not in the lynchpool right now is absolved of criticism and activity. Sure, I can see how that would work for you.
Why put things in the perspective of "lynchable" - "non-lynchable"?

My motivation behind it should be obvious: to get as many people as possible involved so they can weigh in on the situation and eventual choice. I'm pretty confident that the more people read what's going on, the better it will be for me personally and for town generally.

[Grimgroove]

On the first page AngryPidgeon seemed to imply this is a game-steering trio, so it could have been all the support Majiffy thought to be needing for a succesful lynch.

That was a joke. This is some REALLY horrifying justification for Amrun's point.

Amrun's point that Majiffy expected a nice quick ML on Grim with no questions asked. Which as Wisdom points out, there really was not THAT much support for.

And even if it did go through, its freaking NIGHTLESS MOUNTAINOUS. Do you still think Majiffy would risk taking a super easy ML and not worry about potential backlash from looking anti-town and aggressively MLing someone in a game like this?

Post 478, starting from second paragraph. You've seen that post, you even quoted a segment of it that suited your "case".
Does that look like I'm defending Amrun's stance? No.
I did try to see merit in it. And there was. Even if it was a joke, the joke made clear that 1. there's something that connects the three of you meta-wise, 2. the three of you are active (and thus potentially townleaders, those two go hand-in-hand).

This is not as horryfying as you're trying to make it look.

[Grimgroove]

@pirate_mollie: That sorts things out from my end. I guess you can call yourself a pretty universal townread by now.

[Grimgroove]

Yeah, you're not even trying to see a different point of view in this matter, are you? I don't think a challenge on you will be evitable in the next stage. If I were you and you are, against all odds, town, I'd get my cases shaped up and think about what lies ahead.

[Grimgroove]

Post 498 to your latest question.

Post 531 for the rest.

If you're just going to repeat yourself, these are the kind of replies you'll be getting.

Oh, and Wisdom made a smilar point, but scum can also be townleaders, no?

PS: I don't know what you mean by Amrun is going before me, but just a heads up that Amrun is not in the lynchpool.

I haven't sorted out Amrun yet, given my position in all of this I can't help but have sympathy for people going against the guy who simply challenged me when drunk. But I do agree that going for a Majiffy lynch based on the challenge alone isn't going to cut it, and I'm pretty certain if that's Amrun's plan, it is going to fail.

The alternative was that Amrun has no plan, townreads on all of us, and simply picks the guy who is the most anti-town. In this case I find her stance completely understandable. I say "was", because she does try more and more to paint him as scum just over the challenge.

But don't say he didn't have support for my lynch. You are the living proof of it.

[Grimgroove]

(the PS is actually the response to your 539, everything before it to your 538)

[Grimgroove]

Why do you feel the need to add a townread of Wisdom this early?

Phrasing STRONGLY suggests that he knows Amrun is scum and her reads are faked.

This is the post in question, you were answering a question regarding me, so I thought you were talking about me. What misrep?

Grim is asking Amrun why you are town.

I am commenting on Grim's post.

You don't ask someone why they 'felt the need' to townread someone.

That implies its not a genuine read.

Yes, I didn't read that as a genuine read. Why is this bussing per definition? I thought something was off with giving an early townread like that for no clear reason.
That thing in bold, the center of your argument right there, you see it? It's bullshit.

[Grimgroove]

@Grim: Burden of proof, fuck that.

Yes, well you don't want me to prove I'm not associated with Amrun, do you? That would be distancing?
So if not with you, with whom lies the burden of proof then?

About me defending Amrun's case, you're just repeating yourself. I think anyone who reads this topic will know what my stance is in this Majiffy-thing, if they choose to read more than just your selective snippets of quotes.

I'll summarize what I think needs to happen toDay. Feel free to disagree:

Right now I have a townread on pirate_mollie, a null on Majiffy and a null-leaning scum on StrangerCoug.

The null-leaning-scum on StrangerCoug I can't quite explain, and it seems few people can. It's gut. I sucks, especially for StrangerCoug who can't possibly defend himself against that, but it is what it is. He seems too "bland" somehow, rarely sticking out. Everything seems so correct in his posts, almost too correct. It just doesn't feelv ery natural. Also the lack of any visible emotion when he saw the challenge is weird. He seemed more intent to show he didn't lose his cool over anything else.

Townread on mollie has been the result of my long-stretched discussions with her. Her reasoning shows sincerity, and she has removed my doubts in the aspects for which I used to doubt her.

My nullread on Majiffy is the most problematic thing at this stage.
I reiterate my question to those who townread him: Why? (sorry AngryPidgeon, I hope you don't consider this distancing myself for all those people)

I've only seen pirate_mollie explain it, and though I believe her to be sincere, I don't find the reason that convincing. He asked her "not to refer to ongoing games". This is all that happened.
pirate_mollie believes this to be a sign that he wants to get a true, pure read off of her, and so she thinks he's town, but this is not necessarily the way it is. Asking not toç discuss ongonig games is just good practice, as any alignment.

The most important thing for me is that Majiffy explains what he sees in me that warrants the challenge. That will be the only way for me to see if he actually had scummy motives. I saw pirate_mollie say that he said something that it was just a "playstyle"-thing. If that's the only case he has on me, I think he's scum. You don't try to get people lynched over "playstyle"-things.

But Majiffy's ego will be a hurdle. Not only did it result in this challenge that very few people wanted, it could also result in him being stubborn about being right about me, meaning a tunnel in this stage, and possibly another challenge in the next. Well, we'll deal with that if and when we get there, I just want to brace myself in case there is a shitstrom coming and I'm hoping for more critical and thorough readers than Angry Pdgeon has proven himself to be, and more active play from people like Safety Dance and Nobody Special.

[Grimgroove]

So to further clarify: I'll be voting for either Majiffy or StrangerCoug.

Majiffy in case:
- His case on me is complete bullshit.
and
- He shows clear intent to to the same thing tomorrow. (even if only for self-preservation)
and/or
- StrangerCoug manages to convince me that he's town

StrangerCoug will get my vote if none of the above apply.

[Grimgroove]

And why was I ever?

[Grimgroove]

Is this thing on?

[Grimgroove]

What happened to make you feel so confident Coug is scum.

Weak wagon hop on a perceived easy mislynch.

I can't be the only one who sees the irony of this, right?

[Grimgroove]

If you can't figure out by very simple observational skills why I'm town then you should choose a different hobby.

You're so full of yourself, you expect everyone to townread you just like that. Wake up. This is not how this works.

I could say the exact same thing to you. In fact, I will. You should have townread me ever since I got here. You should have convinced me that you're town in a reasonable way. But you didn't. You suck. Yes. And you've been here for years. And still you suck. After all this practice. You have learned nothing. What have you been doing with your time here? I know. You took that pretty little head of yours, bent over in a considerable angle, and put your head through the little pink entrance in the little dark tunnel. Majiffy in Wonderland. You've been stuck there ever since.

And you still have given no reasons as to why I would be scum. Of course not, as I anticipated: you have none.

It's very difficult not to vote you out of personal dislike. I think I'll be enjoying this game far more if he isn't around, pissing me off.

StrangerCoug isn't really trying to defend himself. In the QT he practically ackowledged to be giving up. Some last words from his part would be good, but

I'm declaring intent to hammer

.

I don't know Majiffy's meta, but I can't imagine scum would attract so much attention onto himself by being this obnoxious. This does leave StrangerCoug as the odd one out.

[Grimgroove]

In the QT he practically ackowledged to be giving up

What did he say?

He gave me some sort of "last will", asking me to keep posting in the QT in case he dies before I do.

[Grimgroove]

And why couldn't he do that as town?

I guess he could, but it feels both like an AtE and him throwing the towel in the ring. Given his already limited defense, it feels like scum not wanting to put in the effort, rather than town facing something apparently inevitable. It's not a townish thing to do at this stage to give up so easily, certainly when you see others in the lynchpool are not withuot their share of criticism. Instead of delving into that, he doesn't do much, and it feels to me he doesn't do much because he knows it won't ammount to anything convinving. In this topic itself he did something similar when proclaiming not be a good addition to the debate team. He's pretty experienced. He'll probably be a good debater, he just doesn't have the arguments right now. and that's because he's probably scum.

And yes, that's what he asked. So he could follow my thought-processes etc. I found it a strange request, that's why I'm assuming this was more of an AtE than anything else.

[Grimgroove]

And wait, I don't understand this
He asked you to keep posting in the QT if he dies?

I don't understand why this wasn't clear. Why wasn't this clear? I said literally that in 587?

If StrangerCoug would flip scum I'll definitely remember this. This is part of why I disclosed the QT-conversation. It's highly probably that he informed his scumpartners what he would be doing in our QT, and I seem to see some soft defense forming on him by ways of what he said in the QT, from Wisdom's end. Like a pre-considered strategy. It doesn't feel very natural, definitely given your sudden lack of understanding of basic English.

MEaning the StrangerCoug-lynch just got more itneresting and you're no longer such a clear-cut townread as far as I'm concerned.

[Grimgroove]

Or maybe he just doesn't scumread anyone in this pool enough to bother debating?
I don't get why you cannot consider the possibility of him being town accepting that he's going to be the lynch and that's that.

That's obviously not true, StrangerCoug proclaimed himself to consider both pirate_mollie and Majiffy to be scummy.
What are you doing, Wisdom? You were on such a good track of being townread by almost everyone and suddenly you're all over the place with arguments that don't make sense.

[Grimgroove]

You asked for the obvious, meaning to play more stupid than you are.

It is a very far-fetched scenario. Even though some elements may in some way point to it, it doesn't mean it's true. It's not because there's a crop circle that aliens visited us. It's not because some people disappeared around a lake that there's a monster lurking there. It's not because I don't vote for Majiffy that we're a scumteam. You're being silly.

@595: Of course I don't care, it's just very surprising to see you go from a solid townread to a probable scumread, depending on how StrangerCoug would flip. I wonder why you do that, and why you would think this could possibly work.

[Grimgroove]

Yes, I bring up arguments against you and you decide to vote me based on some Hollywood-scenario. Can one call it omgus?
I believe I will.

[Grimgroove]

Do you think I'm antagonizing you for tactical reasons?

[Grimgroove]

Well, we'll see what StrangerCoug has to say about it. I stated specifically I would want to hear his last words. As if I'd risk being caught in a lie like that. You should know I'm a tad smarter than that.

[Grimgroove]

If you put them right under each other, everyone can see how silly and unnatural this question was. Trying to fake some sense of wonder, but you overdid it and made yourself look a bit stupid. (no disrespect)

In the QT he practically ackowledged to be giving up

What did he say?

He gave me some sort of "last will", asking me to keep posting in the QT in case he dies before I do.

And wait, I don't understand this
He asked you to keep posting in the QT if he dies?

[Grimgroove]

You asked for the obvious, meaning to play more stupid than you are.

The obvious. Because it makes so much sense that someone who (according to you) has accepted he will die, asks you to continue posting in the QT. Why would he ask that? To see how you're thinking? It makes completely no sense and I wouldn't be surprised if you made that up to rush a hammer on him ("he gave up guys, lets do it").

Let's get wild here, and let's assume for a moment, until he gets here, that he did say it and I'm not lying. You say it doesn't make sense. Why would someone say something that doesn't make sense? It's hard to find a reason right?
I found one. Appeal to Emotion. Hence my intent to hammer.

By the way, you just said it doesn't make sense. But earlier you asked why he couldn't do that as town. Now I'm asking you: Why could he do it as town?

If StrangerCoug claims to not have said it, I'd be more than happy to be mislynched, knowing StrangerCoug and you will be next.

[Grimgroove]

This AtE is definitely scummish. I'm sure you can tell the difference. He didn't do an AtE here (or not as obvious) because he knew it would backfire for sure, but he probably thought he could try his luck with a newb like me, who has shown himself sensitive to outbursts of Majiffy, pirate_mollie and Amrun earlier. He probably thought he could cash in on my emotional way of playing.

And he thought it could convince me because what he said clearly implies a sincere interest in my role.
Tell me, Wisdom, when would someone be interested in my role?
When they don't know it. When they're town.
That's the message StrangerCoug was really trying to send me, but it backfired because I saw through it like I see through an open window.
And you got caught in the middle of it.
Two for one.
Sweet.

[Grimgroove]

You asked for the obvious, meaning to play more stupid than you are.

The obvious. Because it makes so much sense that someone who (according to you) has accepted he will die, asks you to continue posting in the QT. Why would he ask that? To see how you're thinking? It makes completely no sense and

I wouldn't be surprised if you made that up to rush a hammer on him

("he gave up guys, lets do it").

And I want to stress this argument you made,b ecause it makes it abundantly clear you've started grasping at straws. Nobody in their right mind would think I could possible invent something like this.

[Grimgroove]

My role: If I'm scum or not.
Only town would want to know that after dying, because scum already knows.
Of course, StrangerCoug does indeed know, but he wanted to pretend he didn't through his AtE.

[Grimgroove]

He didn't ask you to tell him if you are town
He asked you to continue posting

It's the same thing. If I would continue posting in the QT all on my own, as if in my diary, there'd be no more reason for me to lie. He literally said he wanted to see my thought processes. Even if I wouldn't just tell him my alignment, he could easily conclude it based on these thought processes and based on the knowledge I have no reason to lie to a dead man.

And that's exactly why it IS an AtE. As I've explained above.

[Grimgroove]

But you know all that. Don't think because I'm playing along now that I'm not on to you.

[Grimgroove]

This all sounds crazy to me

[Grimgroove]

The thing is, even if that was meant to be scummy AtE, winning you over wouldn't mean anything for him. He would still be lynched, even if you somehow believed he was town because of what he did and objected to his lynch.
Therefore, I don't see why he would do it as scum, no.

The wagons behind Majiffy and StrangerCoug don't differ that much. One voice, even mine, can be enough to tilt the balance one way or the other.

[Grimgroove]

The thing is, even if that was meant to be scummy AtE, winning you over wouldn't mean anything for him. He would still be lynched, even if you somehow believed he was town because of what he did and objected to his lynch.
Therefore, I don't see why he would do it as scum, no.

The wagons behind Majiffy and StrangerCoug don't differ that much. One voice, even mine, can be enough to tilt the balance one way or the other.

Especially when you know StrangerCoug was more of a choice of compromise and not of conviction, and Majiffy's move wasn't appreciated by almost anyone.

[Grimgroove]

My intent to hammer was clearly a bit premature.

VOTE: StrangerCoug

[Grimgroove]

Why do you think StrangerCoug is town? ("while it's probably coming from town")

[Grimgroove]

What happened to make you feel so confident Coug is scum.

Weak wagon hop on a perceived easy mislynch.

You are not an "easy mislynch". I've seen you play very well, and except for what I see as the fatal flaw, you still are now.

StrangerCoug isn't really trying to defend himself. In the QT he practically ackowledged to be giving up. Some last words from his part would be good, but

I'm declaring intent to hammer

.

Not very many people were happy with this lynch pool and there wasn't much legitimate stuff for me to defend. I honestly saw your intent to hammer as a desire to move along when I read it, but now you're seeing my post in the QT as a big deal. I disagree that the request to keep posting in the QT after I die is an appeal to emotion. First of all, why is it illegitimate to want to know what my neighbor thinks of the game? I'm aware of people sharing a QT (often scum, but beside the point) where the QT got new posts despite the poster being the only person in the QuickTopic alive.

Second of all, if I'm scum and you're town, then what would I gain from the QT that I couldn't gain from the thread post-mortem?

You're reacting to my request suspiciously, Grimgroove.

UNVOTE: Majiffy
VOTE: Grimgroove

The aim of your request was not that I would keep posting in the QT, this was not your goal. The aim of your request was that I would start reading you as town.
This is a set-up, whichever way you turn it. The way this is being turned against me is probably an unexpected bonus of what you were trying to do, but yes, you're scum. It's obvious to me now.

[Grimgroove]

What happened to make you feel so confident Coug is scum.

Weak wagon hop on a perceived easy mislynch.

You are not an "easy mislynch". I've seen you play very well, and except for what I see as the fatal flaw, you still are now.

StrangerCoug isn't really trying to defend himself. In the QT he practically ackowledged to be giving up. Some last words from his part would be good, but

I'm declaring intent to hammer

.

Not very many people were happy with this lynch pool and there wasn't much legitimate stuff for me to defend. I honestly saw your intent to hammer as a desire to move along when I read it, but now you're seeing my post in the QT as a big deal. I disagree that the request to keep posting in the QT after I die is an appeal to emotion. First of all, why is it illegitimate to want to know what my neighbor thinks of the game? I'm aware of people sharing a QT (often scum, but beside the point) where the QT got new posts despite the poster being the only person in the QuickTopic alive.

Second of all, if I'm scum and you're town, then what would I gain from the QT that I couldn't gain from the thread post-mortem?

You're reacting to my request suspiciously, Grimgroove.

UNVOTE: Majiffy
VOTE: Grimgroove

The aim of your request was not that I would keep posting in the QT, this was not your goal. The aim of your request was that I would start reading you as town.
This is a set-up, whichever way you turn it. The way this is being turned against me is probably an unexpected bonus of what you were trying to do, but yes, you're scum. It's obvious to me now.

And to add to that question in bold: What would you gain as any alignment?

[Grimgroove]

Yes, "whatever", let's just keep our vote on Grimgroove and pretend nothing happened.

@Wisdom: So your reason for voting me is?

[Grimgroove]

Yes.
The only thing I could find was a bunch of townreads on me, a wacky sneario involving me and Majiffy, and no arguments.
Oh, no, one.
The part where I consider StrangerCoug's request to be scummy and try to get him lynched for it.
And the part where I consider all those inconsistent statements of yours with regards to that equally scummy.
Yes, now that's not really an argument is it?
With your "whatever" you admit yourself you're not convinced about Stranger's explanation of his request. Yet me thinking it's scummy is a bridge too far.
Yeah, I'm reading your posts. I hope everyone else does as well, and will remember them.

[Grimgroove]

@Wisdom:

594 is not a reason. It's not an argument.
It's a hypothesis coupled with circumstancial evidence brought up to fit the "case".
No, I doubt you'll get me lynched like that.
If you do, shame on town.

[Grimgroove]

I'll let Majiffy do the dissing of that 594, from what I've seen he's pretty good at that.

You assumed I would be angry at Majiffy. I was, I am, like many other people. But why should my anger lead to me lynching him? Obviously, that's what you were hoping for, but why would that make me town? Why couldn't I just be a reasonable guy who thinks with his head and not with his whatever it is that dominates the bodily functions when one is angry?

[Grimgroove]

I urge you to read pages 24 and 25 again and again until you see what I see. It's really hard to miss. Wisdom is scum. The only reason why's holding on to his vote is not because he's having a moment of retardation (which is always a strange thing to assume) but because Stranger's flip will have him by the balls and he knows it.
Just read those pages, I implore you.

[Grimgroove]

Oops forgot to color Wisdom green.

You really shouldn't.

[Grimgroove]

Considering that you might be wrong sometimes might help

Yes, go on and ignore me.
Same for StrangerCoug in the QT. Communications have been closed it seems.

Just like Majiffy, I'll tell you what needs to happen:

Lynch StrangerCoug.
Read pages 24-25 carefully and with as much of an open mind as possible.
Agree that Wisdom needs to be in the lynchpool, somehow.
Keep a close eye on how Elyse, Amrun and AngryPidgeon act during these proceedings.
Lynch them depending on how they perform.

Yes, that sounds like a very good plan.

[Grimgroove]

Considering that you might be wrong sometimes might help

Oh yes, and the reason I quoted this specifically: I read you wiki-gamepage. You KNOW you are prone to tunneling. Don't you think it's time to follow your own advice?

Not that it is entirely relevant in this case, because you're scum. But I found it quite rich you'd be telling pirate_mollie what to do.

Just look at your scenario. Look at it. Consider that it might be wrong. Yet you don't.

I'd think you might be tunneling town, stuck in his own ideas, but I've seen you play before, I know common sense does strike you at some point. Yet here it does not, further strengthening my belief that you are scum.

Yes you are. You so are. Argh. I can see you wriggling behind your computer right now, knowing I'm on to you. Feeling a bit surprised that I am after our short exchange. But I am. Face it. All you have left now is trying to make me less "believable" somehow, make sure the link between you and StrangerCoug becomes as murky as possible. But I won't allow that to happen, and you know it. You better know it. If I'm lynched they will be my last words. My reminder to everyone that the two of you should be next.

[Grimgroove]

You make too much of a habit of the last thing.

[Grimgroove]

You cannot seriously think you're right in this case. There is simply no way. Majiffy calls it a moment of retardation but I refuse to believe it. You know very well what you are doing.

I don't blame you. I really don't. Getting my lynched is your only option in order to be able to continue this game in a peaceful state of nullread-townread.

But enough of this. You're not only tunneling on me, you're also tunneling on one argument: a supposed link between me and Majiffy. What about all the other things that have been going on? How do these fit into your scenario?

And acknowledge pages 2' and 25 damnit! They did not disappear in some kind of void. They are still there, for everyone to read. It's so damned Obvious...

(PS, not game-related: I noticed the word Obvious is always automatically capitalized. Is this a website-thing?)

[Grimgroove]

Btw you're silly if you think I'd try to protect my scumbuddy in a game where I can actually bus him.

That's what you were doing at first. You were on his wagon, were you not? What were those reasons again? Oh, yes, you'll tell me to read your posts again, thus avoiding the publicity of your inconsistencies and incoherent behaviour.
But after the bussing, SC appealed to me in the QT, and all hell broke loose (well, not really, but I can't really think of another way to summarize the events). You thought you saw an opportunity to paint me as scum, and you took it. But I'll be damned if I don't try for that awful plan to backfire in your face.

If you think I'm scum, you should be at least thinking that Coug must be town and that I'm going for the credit when he flips.
WIFOM, sure, but that's how it is.

Yes, WIFOM, no buts. WIFOM and WIFOM to the power of WIFOM multiplied by WIFOM.

[Grimgroove]

Show me what you want me to acknowledge, I don't remember you addressing me.

Page 24-25 is mainly a conversation between the both of us. Who else would I have been addressing?

[Grimgroove]

Show me what you want me to acknowledge, I don't remember you addressing me.

Page 24-25 is mainly a conversation between the both of us. Who else would I have been addressing?

If its a conversation between us then how have I not acknowledged its existence?

I'm talking about afterwards. You're pretending all the points I made about you there are non-existant.

[Grimgroove]

I would never go back on my bussing like that, Grim.

Oh, ok, you're cleared then! Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Grimgroove]

Show me what you want me to acknowledge, I don't remember you addressing me.

Page 24-25 is mainly a conversation between the both of us. Who else would I have been addressing?

If its a conversation between us then how have I not acknowledged its existence?

I'm talking about afterwards. You're pretending all the points I made about you there are non-existant.

I should remain calm and aim to be more clear. I'm guessing this will have confused you.

When I say "I'm talking about afterwards" I mean you didn't respond to the points brought up here. The only conclusion from your side was that you wanted to hear StrangerCoug's version of things. Despite you not finding his explanation satisfactory ("weird but whatever") you have not acted upon that. Why did you find SC's explanation so important at the time, if later on you do nothing with it?

[Grimgroove]

Why did you find SC's explanation so important at the time, if later on you do nothing with it?

Because I didn't know if I believe you,

Which was ludicrous to begin with.

that thing seemed too weird.
But since he confirmed it happened, there's nothing I can do with it except think that Coug is weird.

Yes, that says it all really. Just accepting the fact that someone you used to have as "scum" in your reads is plainly weird and doesn't make sense in his explanations.

How is my assumption that he was trying to pull off an AtE any weirder than his explanation? Let alone scummier?

[Grimgroove]

Can you summarize your points against me? All I seem to recall is you thinking that I'm trying to protect Coug. Which is stupid because a) we don't have a Coug flip yet,

Partially thanks to you.

and b) You assume that I would stop bussing in the middle of the lynch and try to save my buddy which I'd never do.

There's a first time for everything, in case you're not simply lying about your meta. But I guess that's also something you'd never do, right?

I'd take you more seriously.

Oh, you take me seriously. I know you do

[Grimgroove]

The summary is pages 24-25. It's only two pages, without any walls to speak of. You don't need a summary of two pages.

[Grimgroove]

Read my posts.

yes, well, back at you.

But you're right, it is unproductive to be talking about this right now. you're not even in the lynchpool. But I'm glad I made my point clear about you in case I do get lynched.
Let's deal with StrangerCoug first.

[Grimgroove]

@Wisdom: So your reason for voting me is?

Read my posts.

yes, well, back at you.

Ok, then don't whine I am not acknowleding and things. If you had a genuine case on me, you'd have no problem presenting a summary.

That is just wonderful.

[Grimgroove]

What are you doing, Wisdom?

You were on such a good track of being townread by almost everyone

and suddenly you're all over the place with arguments that don't make sense.

I want someone (not Grim) to explain to me why would town ever say this. Especially the bolded part.

I know you don't want my explanatyion (I already gave it), but I can imagine what yours could be:

"It's just plain weird. Whatever."

If I had been your scumbuddy at least.

[Grimgroove]

But that difference is irrelevant to my point.

[Grimgroove]

You were arguing that people directing others to read their posts don't want to summarize because they don't have a genuine case.
I showed you how you were doing that yourself earlier.
THAT was my point.

[Grimgroove]

My arguments happen to be scattered in a space of two pages, oh boy, am I scum.
Quick run-through off the top of my head: unnatural response to my disclosure of the QT-happenings, playing dumb when it comes to basic understanding of the english, making up a ludicrous story about me making the whole thing up, responding badly (if at all, aside from omgus) to points raised against you, a poorly backed up scumread on me, a poorly backed up switch away from StrangerCoug. Yes, that should be about it.

And I repeat, that post you directed me to was not an argument. It's something that started as a silly thinking exercise, and that has now suddenly become very convenient. But its convenience does not hide its silliness.

[Grimgroove]

Sheep him? did you not notice I had my own, unique reasons to jump on the Coug-wagon?

Delving further into Majiffy's case on me is useless. The same ego that challenged us will never openly declare he was wrong about me, and that he never had anything on me to begin with. That same ego will never stoop so low as to pretend to present a flimsy case on me. He will choose to remain untocuhed and unquestioned in his reads, mainly through charisma and lack of reasons. Normally it's null, but considering he's on the right track as far as I can see, he's town. When I said that the only thing I read about Majiffy are his characteristics, it is exactly that that I was referring to. His ego. And from that read I know that certain approaches are useless, one of them being asking for reasons and arguments. The guy expects to be believed. He just does.

[Grimgroove]

But you always townread Majiffy yourself right, even (or especially) after that challenge? Or is it because you know him better that it makes much more sense?

Do you agree with my view on him in 715, yes or no? Regardless of what you'll answer, I'll be able to use the answer against you. You know why? Because you're INCONSISTENT. You're all over the place, all in an effort to make me look bad. Joke's on you.

[Grimgroove]

So you agree with my view on him. This proves that I do know Majiffy, or at least I know him as well as you do. Yet you said "especially given you don't know Majiffy", after having read a description of him by me that you agree with.

That's bullshit and you know it. So what if I only need one topic to get to know him?
Telling me what I'm supposed to think in this regard is ludircrous. You're telling me I'm supposed to disagree with you when it comes to how I percieve Majiffy. Because I'm a newbie who doesn't know him. This reeks. It reeks of scum.

[Grimgroove]

Wisdom, I am going to give you one last chance for the possibility of absolution of your sins. I know you, you indeed tunnel. Quite hard sometimes, and often incorrectly.
Learn from your mistakes. I will tell you how to do this:

1. Re-read the game we've completed together in the Mayfair-club, with the knowledge that Miss Destroyer is town. See how much sense their posts make.
2. Come back here.
3. Read my posts with a different mindset, try to pretend I'm town and read my posts.
4. You'll see you won't need any wacky scenarios like the one about me and MAjiffy to defend the stance that I am indeed town.

If you refuse to do this, if you refuse to see this, I'll know for a fact that you're scum.
If you do it, there might be hope for you. But I don't want to give you false hope. You're still on my radar for the reasons provided on pages 24-25, no matter what you have to say about those. But at least you could be absolved of the awful, awful scumread you have on me.

[Grimgroove]

You have officially stopped making sense. Bravo.

You're defending your scumread by things "that I was supposed to think". Do you not see the evil of these ways? You try to back up this nonsense by things you yourself used to think. So in essence, you're saying because I didn't need as much time as you to get to the same conclusions about Majiffy as you did, I'm scum. Together with him. You are irrationally excluding the option where I just read him better and faster. This is in no way meant to sound disdainful. But in this case this what happened. This is fact.

You're saying: "You're not town because you don't think the exact same way as I used to do."

That's what reeks of scum. Allegations based on nonsensical suppositions.

[Grimgroove]

@720
Do you really think I care about how you read me? This is becoming really stupid. No, I won't do any of this, Grim. MissD were scummy, so I read them as scummy. You're scummy, so I read you as scummy. I don't tunnel on people just because I think it's fun, I do it because I believe they're scum. Because they do things that make me believe they're scum.

"absolution of my sins"? lawl. die.

Have it your way, this will come bite you in the ass whether I live or I die.

[Grimgroove]

MissD were scummy, so I read them as scummy.

You did drop that tunnel eventually though, and you rightfully took great pride in that. It can't have been easy, but you did it.
You not willing to do this 4-step exercise, well, you know my conclusion.
And to think you even know my scum meta. I'm not trying to use my meta as an argument for you.

But I want people to know that, if I would get lynched, and they see my flip, you were one of the most informed people on my wagon. You will not escape responsability.

[Grimgroove]

So you agree with my view on him. This proves that I do know Majiffy, or at least I know him as well as you do. Yet you said "especially given you don't know Majiffy", after having read a description of him by me that you agree with.

No, it doesn't prove that, and that's precisely my issue.

How would I have reached the same conclusion as you did "without knowing him" then, according to you?
I'm sensing another Hollywood scenario coming up. Should be entertaining.

[Grimgroove]

StrangerCoug's flip does complicate things tremendously.
I look like a bit of an idiot now, don't I?

Still, pretty certain of this one:

VOTE: Wisdom

[Grimgroove]

Amongst other things.

[Grimgroove]

I'll admit I feel tremendously stupid right now. I got quite ahead of myself. But I still think I am on to something when you are concerned. Given the StrangerCoug hiccup I also see it as my only way of somehow making up for it. If I'm wrong about you, I guess I will have to find another hobby as someone suggested.
The way it's looking now the entire lynchpool of Day 1 consisted of townplayers. So the feelings of guilt are manageable, there was no way around of lynching town.

[Grimgroove]

It is a very good lynchpool indeed.
I'll probably just sheep Majiffy when push comes to shove. I really want you to be scum as well though.
But I have to re-evaluate everything, you're definitely right about that.
Damnit, I was already dreaming of a scummy award for best townplay for catching both you and StrangerCoug in two pages time. It all seemed to fit so nicely.
Agh. Will take the day off tomorrow.

[Grimgroove]

^ Pretty clearly sarcasm

It is a very good lynchpool indeed.
I'll probably just sheep Majiffy when push comes to shove. I really want you to be scum as well though.
But I have to re-evaluate everything, you're definitely right about that.
Damnit, I was already dreaming of a scummy award for best townplay for catching both you and StrangerCoug in two pages time. It all seemed to fit so nicely.
Agh. Will take the day off tomorrow.

If you want to sheep me, why aren't you voting AP?

It seemed like a good idea at the time, I was disappointed with my performance.
But you were wrong as well, so sheeping you is obviously not a guarantee to succes.
What do you think about Wisdom? I noticed you had him from marked in green to one of the lynch-possibilities.
Do you think my interactions with him brought something to light, or just all bullshit?

I don't find Venmar very constructive.
NS is lurkylukr.
Angry Pidgeon has been wrong throughout most of the game, but sadly I'm not in the position anymore to hold that against anyone, which will make my gameplay considerably more moot until I get over that.
But Wisdom should know I'm town.

[Grimgroove]

But Wisdom should know I'm town.

Do you want to take a step back and reread your game?

My own game? Why?
Didn't you think I was scum?

[Grimgroove]

Anything he said about me was wrong.

[Grimgroove]

UNVOTE:

[Grimgroove]

I unvoted Wisdom. It's actually based on an argument I read somewhere else but that I alo believe in: someone who is convinced about his arguments and really believes in them is town, no matter how wrong these arguments.
He really seems to believe in his arguments very strongly. He makes a stance and barely budges. He's known for tunneling, for being stubborn, at least as town. I don't know his scum meta, but the fact that his points against me don't make any sense at all don't make him scum. And the fact he keeps defending and blieving them makes him lean town.

The only thing I fear is that he's cashing in on my being wrong about StrangerCoug. If he's scum, he'd know all along I'd be wrong and plan to use that against me, and use my own doubts against me after Strangercoug's flip.

I think I joined this pro-game way too early in my MafiaScum-proces. I'm at a complete loss.

The only thing I'm convinced of, both through gut and brain: pirate_mollie is town.

I think I'll just be sheeping her. I'm guessing she's pretty good at this game, so yeah, no harm done.

[Grimgroove]

If I'm voting Wisdom again it will be because of his post 600 and pirate_mollie stating somewhere in the beginning of the game that Wisdom's arguments tend to make much less sense when he's scum.

I just need to check a finished game I had with him to see if he also made truly silly arguments there. He definitely tunneled as town, but I don't remember the silly arguments.

[Grimgroove]

How can you possibly believe in your arguments as scum? You KNOW they're bullshit, so how do you believe in them then?

[Grimgroove]

The more I think about it, the more post 600 makes you town actually. I don't think scum would consciously try to use this as an argument thinking it would work, so I see it as town blurting out hypotheses without a filter. Posting without such a filter is actually very townish.

[Grimgroove]

P-P-edit:

She really did call herself likely town for the plan

and then defend the plan by pointing to "experience". That is not town motivated.

Part in bold: Not true.
The rest: Don't agree.

Yes, she did:

In fact, traditionally, such suggestions are made far more often by town

Grim is not commenting on my alignment but soft-agrees with Venmar's 'case' on me and implies I'm blatantly misrepping events in the thread. I'm basically down to lynch that with no questions asked right now.

also since when did I become a scum read of yours cos this is the first time I have heard about it. why aren't you asking me questions or interacting with me?

I'm right over here when you figure this answer out for yourself.

I said what he did was fucking terrible and anti-town.

Im still not seeing any points from you other than
-Majiffy sucks for being anti-town

Even challenging someone who more people suspected (like AP's group) would have been marginally better.

-Subtly apologizing for your Majiffy vote for when he almost definitely flips town, but alas he has to go.

You can't tell me you aren't PLing him when you CLEARLY are pretending to be PLing him. Thats scummy as balls that you would deny it on the technicality that you never used the words "PL".

Vote: Strangercoug

This vote is dazzling, Venmar. Just sheep me on to Grimgroove, just sheeeeep.

but I don't like the way you're presenting yourself as my knight in shining armor coming to my rescue. The "blood of righteousness"-comment really made it look like that, and it comes eerily close to buddying.

Distance from Amrun all you want. I will remain steadfast.

Does Nobody Special know he is participating in this game?

Who cares, hes a lurksack and hes not lynchable atm. This is a prime example of someone doing something to appear pro-town that actually has no motivation behind it.

This is really REALLY obvious guys.

On the first page AngryPidgeon seemed to imply this is a game-steering trio, so it could have been all the support Majiffy thought to be needing for a succesful lynch.

That was a joke. This is some REALLY horrifying justification for Amrun's point.

Amrun's point that Majiffy expected a nice quick ML on Grim with no questions asked. Which as Wisdom points out, there really was not THAT much support for.

And even if it did go through, its freaking NIGHTLESS MOUNTAINOUS. Do you still think Majiffy would risk taking a super easy ML and not worry about potential backlash from looking anti-town and aggressively MLing someone in a game like this?

Mollie, did Majiffy tell you he was going to challenge before he did it?

She already addressed this. But pretending to not read clearly makes you scum. And really I know someone who was raging and omgusy about the challenge would definitely remember reading that tidbit.

But you are pretending that Majiffy was a scumread all along now, so.

I think he expected his lovely newbie wagon just to fall into place. I find him scummy for it.

Ok, first time you've been willing to say Majiffy is likely scum.

And really? Rushing out the gates with a challenge is more likely from town for obvious reasons.

I would argue he may do it as scum BECAUSE its such a strong town tell.

I have explained it, and quite thoroughly -- not in those posts, but in others which you are pretending to have read but have not.

Rofl. Yes Majiffy is scummy for organizing a lynch on Grim which has no notable support. Just handwave that away after Wisdom points it out. And the fact that Majiffy is likely trading himself for a townie at BEST in that hypothetical scenario. Totally makes sense for him to be doing that as scum. And you explained it ONCE. Thats IT. Everything else is QQ about Majiffy ruining your game which is obviously bullshit in light of your other posting.

Grim, yes, I now have a town read on you. Have for quite some time. Thought that was obvious.

This was not obvious at all.

@Grim: Burden of proof, fuck that. You are both individually scummy.

Window edit: BUT YOU WERE DEFENDING AMRUN's STANCE. YOU WERE TELLING WISDOM THAT THERE WAS CREDIBLE REASON TO BELIEVE AMRUN'S THEORY RIGHT HERE:

He didn't.
And Majiffy cannot read your QT.
Therefore, no. There were no suspicions on Grimgroove for Majiffy to count on.

AngryPidgeon did.
And pirate_mollie didn't seem to like me very much, Majiffy confirmed they were talking about me in their QT.

On the first page AngryPidgeon seemed to imply this is a game-steering trio, so it could have been all the support Majiffy thought to be needing for a succesful lynch.

Which is so only barely peripherally relevant anyways. You are defending Amrun here lightly and now saying you weren't. WTF were you doing if not saying that Amrun's hocus-pocus had merit when she was in the process of just handwaving away Wisdom's point?

About my association with Amrun.

I thought it was scummy because he was using an associative tell to paint me off as scummy, without having seen either of us flip. And that was all he had on me. This was his case.

Nobody Special I think is town, his last post seemed genuine enough to me. Instead of pointing to a random other person in the other lynchpool and try tog et this person lynched instead of himself,h e admits to not having any clear reads. I can relate.

Venmar, well, I'd love to see his case. He seemed tob e trolling for a long time,b ut his challenge puts this in a new light. My gut tells me he's town though.

My strongest scumreads right now are Amrun, Elyse and AngryPidgeon. Those three are followed by SafetyDance and enomis.

[Grimgroove]

Those quotes weren't supposed to be there, forgot to delete them, though I guess they provide context :p
The above was simply a reply to Wisdom's last questions.

[Grimgroove]

I guess it's unlikely that two scumbdus would bus one together.
Just checked Elyse's ISO of recents posts, there are what stood out for me:

I've played with AP once and he was much more active and persuasive in the other game. He was always scumhunting and pushed good, legit cases and he was confident. He was town. Here, I'm seeing the opposite, on top of what Amrun said.

But why are you against voting AP? Do you have a townread on him or something? Amrun posted a good list of reasons to vote AP, yet you ask if it is just how he plays and continue voting NS who hasn't done anything. Why?

I don't find the reasoning very convinving in this case. Ok, I agree with the fact that his case on me was pretty bad, but to me he did come off as active and trying to be persuasive, showing confidence. It is not the opposite of what Elyse descirbes as his townplay.

@Grim
You said "AP has been wrong all game." Can you show where he's wrong?

I wonder why she asked me this question, considering she earlier said herself his cases are not good and not legit.

Fuck you, honestly. I don't know why v/la is such a fucking difficult concept for people to grasp. Maybe if I was irresponsible and just didn't post for over a week people would fucking understand.

Trying to paint my infrequent phone posting as scummy when it's public knowledge I'm not around for this time frame is scummy as fuck.

Where did this come from? I didn't see anyone saying you were scummy for infrequent posting (I might have missed it). You aren't even posting infrequently.

@Wisdom
Amrun is probably town.

I think it's Grim/NS/AP/{Safety Dance, enomis}

Those reads throw me off a bit. There's some overlap with mine, that's probably why.

I DON'T KNOW!

Damn. Nothing makes sense. Why couldn't SC just flip scum and make this thing easier?

[Grimgroove]

Any word on the orange and purple QT's? It's strangely silent when it comes to those.

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Nobody Special

Even if only to spur him towards more content. He can't stay in hiding forever.

Don't have an especially strong townread on any of the four anymore. AngryPidgeon is my preference, but not enough to put him at L-1 already. Elyse and amrun on his wagon aren't exactly reassuring either.

[Grimgroove]

If he doesn't provide content he's the scummiest of the bunch and should be lynched for it.

As soon as he does provide content, I'll evaluate him based on that.

I don't see how it kills "the purpose". The purpose is to make him deliver content. Tell me how my vote or my reasons for it are standing in the way of achieving this?

[Grimgroove]

P.S.

Yes, assign scum motive to whatever Im doing.

Get your head out of your ass.

Listen to your words of wisdom!

[Grimgroove]

And really a read on NS that amounts to "hes scummy for lurking" just means you've never read any NS game.

I can't fault you for bad logic, but NS is a distraction from people who are actually probable scum so lets fucking talk.

I indeed have never read an NS game.

Who am I distracting from? You're voting yourself, so I guess this means you think nobody in the current pool is scum. Then why would I be distracting anyone?

I've explained my read on you, and on anyone.

I think you're scummy for your case on me that was entirely based on a percieved association with Amrun.
I think Amrun is scummy because of buddying, a lack of cases.

I know you're already convinced I'm scum. It would be very good to just lynch you and get that over with, but right now I think Nobody Special's lurkishness is more reason for worry. Sure, maybe it's in his ùeta, but tell me, how do you decide he's town then? What stuff that he has actually posted seemed like townish to you?

The QT alone I already find kind of weird. There's a logical fallacy in the questions he's asked Wisdom.

[Grimgroove]

You won't shut up about how obvious scum I am or taking potshots at me.

You're overreacting. It's actually the other way around really. What you described is what you've been doing to me. I just called you scummy for that, but I did point out some redeeming factors as well.

[Grimgroove]

Ok, there isn't. I just checked, and Wisdom wasn't being defensive of amrun, but was actually attacking her for suggesting the plan and going for towncred. I guess he just picked the wrong word.

The way NS worded it it sounded like he was asking why Wisdom was protecting her, making the entire thing illogical.

But it's just the wrong word he chose there.

As if this game hasn't been confusing enough.

[Grimgroove]

Why the hell are you self-voting?

Why the hell not. Grim wants to posture about me being at L - 1, he can stop being a posturing scumbutt and hammer me.

What is this about?

[Grimgroove]

No, he clearly meant why I'm being defensive.
However I have no clue why everyone calls attacking faulty/scummy posts as being defensive.

Hence my interpretation.

[Grimgroove]

I know you're already convinced I'm scum.

It would be very good to just lynch you and get that over with

, but right now I think Nobody Special's lurkishness is more reason for worry.

: ?

I don't see how those two sentiments are related unless you are blatantly suggesting I should be lynched for being incorrect about a read on you.

I really need bed so just getting into this one, but your read on me is indeed a problem. I'm not saying you should be lynched for it, otherwise I'd vote you, but it would certainly make my game easier if I did so.

You say you've got more on me than my association with Amrun, but I don't see it. Earlier said you don't want to talk about me because I'd enjoy that too much (or something to that extent), but I really think you should.

Which teams should be in the next lynchpool according to you?

[Grimgroove]

Aaaand I like some of these more recent ap posts.

Same here.

[Grimgroove]

WHAT DO WE SAY TO THE DEATH GOD?

NOT TODAY.

[Grimgroove]

Majiffy which part of -he knew he was not hammered, he even tried to push a Venmar lynch- you don't understand?

I think the Venmar vote after Venmar voted is very telling. Why would AP place a vote on someone if he thought he was hammered? And why wouldn't he vote me, since I'm apparently in my own scum tier.

Chronology:

Venmar votes
AP votes
Amrun goes "oh was that hammer"
Venmar goes "yes"
AP goes "oh"

Simplified, but you guys are acting like it is

impossible

for:
AP to have voted, not thinking there was a hammer.
A big situation arises around it being a hammer.
And AP then thinking he was hammered, and acting accordingly.

It isn't outside the realm of possibility and it seems like there are a number of diehard positions being taken that assume it to be such that it IS outside the realm of possibility.

Agreed.

[Grimgroove]

Also the self-vote didn't happen because he gave up. The self-vote happened because he wanted to "test" if Grimgroove would hammer him or not.

I never understood this test. I never claimed I would do so and even specifically stated I found it too early for an L-1.

[Grimgroove]

I do believe AngryPidgeon should remvoe that vote. I don't see how it is helpful.

[Grimgroove]

I believe sticking with NS for now is better.

[Grimgroove]

Majiffy's 1100 is perfect logic and I act according to it.

[Grimgroove]

Do you think AP made up his RL story?

You sound frustrated you're being bereft of an almost certain mislynch because of reasons you don't like.

But just because you don't like the reasons, doesn't mean they're not valid.

And they are. Not only Majiffy's logic convinced me (I was thinknig along the same lines anyway when it comes to that), but also A's description of what was going on sounds too genuine to be fake. There's no way you can't see that.

I'm going to move my vote back on to you, because of this obvious disappointment you're enduring. If you're town, you should be happy there were arguments brought forward that make AP very very town.

VOTE: Wisdom

[Grimgroove]

Many people have asked me this during this game, I'm starting to believe I am retarded in comparison with you guys. I didn't realize I joined Mensa when joining in this game.

So, with reason being out of the window for a simple bloke like me, I'll have to base my reads off emotions.

You sound frustrated you're being bereft of an almost certain mislynch because of reasons you don't like.

And you basically just confirmed this.

So my vote stays.

[Grimgroove]

Could you clarify the relation between 1141 and your confindence in me being scum, even if only for future reference after you're lynched?

[Grimgroove]

Great, Grimgroove is scum.

enomis/Safety/Grimgroove. One left.

Where did Elyse and Amrun go by the way? i thought you had them down as scum only yesterday?

My current guess:

Enomis/Elyse/Amrun/?

I hope you are the question mark Wisdom, but I'm not sure. I'm not happy with this lynchpool anymore, but right now you're the scummiest of that bunch.

Other candidates for the question mark: Safety Dance

UNVOTE:

Pff.

We need more info from Venmar and Nobody Special.

[Grimgroove]

Because those two are also candidates for the question mark-spot.

[Grimgroove]

Amrun and Venmar (especially Amrun) are town as balls for the reaction test.

?

[Grimgroove]

Reaction test

[Grimgroove]

-Amrun goes "omg was that a hammer?" and Venmar takes the opportunity and states that it was a hammer.

I basically disagree that this was a thought-out reaction test from both of them, if any of them.

[Grimgroove]

Did they ever claim it was? I probzbly missed it.

You must exuse me, but there is a lot going on in this game. And at the same time, nothing.

[Grimgroove]

Faked it to see reactions, I actually only put AP at L-1.

In mountainous, you gotta figure shit out somehow eh?

Vote: Wisdom

Welcome to the leaning town pile, AP.

Ok, so I missed it.

But Amrun seemed to believe it was an argument?

NO NEED TO BE A DICK BY THE WAY!

So Venmar is indeed town now. I agree that such a maneuver is a very townish thing to do, and his conclusions of what happened are normal, logical and from whaty I can see, correct.

So it's basically down to you and Nobody Special out of this lynchpool.

Let's wait for Nobody Special a bit.

[Grimgroove]

Amrun and Venmar

(especially Amrun)

are town as balls for the reaction test.

?

You must explain this or I'll vote you never to move my vote away again.

[Grimgroove]

Meh.

VOTE: Wisdom

[Grimgroove]

Amrun and Venmar

(especially Amrun)

are town as balls for the reaction test.

?

You must explain this or I'll vote you never to move my vote away again.

Amrun, can you explain this?

[Grimgroove]

Yes, well, as soon as you're in a lynchpool the same applies for Wisdom as for you.

Permavote!

[Grimgroove]

no u

[Grimgroove]

I don't see it.
Here Amrun admits to not knowing the hammer was fake, so how was she part of the reaction test?

But see, mollie, up until the point of the hammer,

now supposedly fake

, I was rethinking, even though he never once addressed my issues with him without trying to address seething else I wasn't even talking about. His reaction was NOT ragey, as I'd expect of town -- it was cautious. Now I'm unsure what to think.

All this energy wasted on calling me a retard could have easily been used with simply explaining or pointing me to where this Amrun-reaction test happened instead of being dicks about it.

So I missed some stuff. SUE ME!

Call me a retard or scum or both, but at least one of those will be rebuked sooner or later and at least one of them will be thrown back in your face as a result.

[Grimgroove]

Ok then Amrun is not necessarily town. I thought she knew that.

I want you to know I very much enjoyed this.

[Grimgroove]

Grimgroove, just FYI. That's retarded.

So you didn't find it at all strange that Wisdom was townreading you for a reaction test you knew yourself not to be a part of?

What the fuck.

Seriously.

[Grimgroove]

You tell me I don't read the topic, but apparently I did better than you did.

I just caught Amrun trying to get towncred for something she didn't even do.

[Grimgroove]

By not questioning your townread on her for glaringly wrong reasons. That's how.

She probably re-read the happenings herself and thought it could be read as her playing along, yet she missed the part I did not miss, namely the thing I bolded in post 1042.

[Grimgroove]

I can't believe I actually have to explain this to you.

[Grimgroove]

I have a disagreement on this.
I think your lynch will be far more interesting than a lynch on Nobody Special.

If only for this:

Wait, where did she try to get towncred for it?

I think you should be lynched for asking this.

Anyway, my vote on you has the "perma"-tag for a reason. I asked you to answer a simple question and you didn't. For all I know you were part of the "towncred-for-Amrun"-plan all along.

[Grimgroove]

And I answered you.
But when I asked you, you called me a retard.
NOW THAT WAS NOT VERY NICE, WAS IT?

[Grimgroove]

Amrun and Venmar

(especially Amrun)

are town as balls for the reaction test.

?

You must explain this or I'll vote you never to move my vote away again.

Go. fucking. read. the. game.

I am talking about this.
You did not want to explain it to me.
Either because you felt like being a dick, or because you knew that townread was uncalled for.
Amrun did the same thing.

Now, surprise, surprise, I find out the Amrun townread was indeed uncalled for.

Now Amrun is obvscum because she remained intentionally ambiguous in order to get towncred.
Now Wisdom is probscum because of reacting the same way as Amrun did, and possibly being part of the same scheme.

Now, what is stupid about this argument?

[Grimgroove]

By not questioning your townread on her for glaringly wrong reasons. That's how.

She probably re-read the happenings herself and thought it could be read as her playing along, yet she missed the part I did not miss, namely the thing I bolded in post 1042.

That's ridiculous. Fucking lol.

A) I wasn't sure what he meant by it, but assumed that he meant my general activity around the reaction test.

If you weren't sure, why didn't you ask?

B) I was attempting not to interrupt your line of questioning to him, but YOU made that impossible.

He already made it obvious he wasn't going to answer me. The questioning was at a close. What the hell was there to interupt?

C) that wouldn't get me "towncred" anyway lol

How is this funny? Wisdom GAVE you towncred for it, black on white, and you DID NOT question it. So obviously poiint C is entirely invalid.

[Grimgroove]

Scum have fucking daytalk, if I was a part of the scheme you seriously think I would have let Amrun derp like that and ruin it?

You didn't notice the thing I bolded in 1042. The little three words that toppled the towncred-for-Amrun-plan.
It's obviously easy enough to miss, by both of you. That's how you would let her "derp" and become a part of that "derp" yourself.
Amrun didn't ruin it now, when admitting to not knowing it was a hammer. She had no other choice. The derp happened when trying to get her in the conftown pool.

[Grimgroove]

@AP:

I still want you to explain what you mean about me posuting about your L-1 or whatever the English way of saying this is. To put it clearly: I never wanted you at L-1. If I did, I would have simply put you there.

Wisdom, careful now!

[Grimgroove]

I'm keeping my vote on Wisdom. NS is nothing more but a compromise lynch based on his lack of activity.

Some people actually scumread Wisdom, nobody scumreads NS, they just think he's inactive.

Why not check if the people scumreading Wisdom could be right, and at least get that point of discussion out of the way now that we can?

[Grimgroove]

Fine, I'll take you AtE.
I obviously did not read your game again, I might as well start reading the Bible, but pff, I thought about it.
I'd feel bad about letting you slide once again in case you do end up being scum, but I'd feel worse if you're actual town having put a lot of effort in this game and letting Nobody Special being lurksack lazy scum with 11 posts live on. Somehow doesn't seem fair.
So yeah, congrats, your AtE worked.
But I still think your play vis-à-vis Amrun has been very dubious. I hope you agree she is the next one to lynch and won't be throwing around any wild scenraios again just to make her seem town somehow. She is obvscum.

VOTE: Nobody Special

This is

L-1

.

I do think last words from Nobody Special are in order.